One life worth more than another...?

[Nizark]

I have always been curious how and when and why American soldiers and civilians lives are worth more to American leaders than those civilians and soldiers to other countries leadership.

For example, while i understand it is a war right next door, the Iranians sent waves of young people to commit suicide on the minefields on the Iraqi border during the iran-iraq war to clear room for the armor. The blackhawk down insident had over 1500 enemy killed, but they kept coming. Suicide bombing of civilian targets in israel might not work simply because they say that the bombers feel they have nothing left to live for and thats why they do what they do, but still, i will leave that one alone for now. There are the children fighters in southeast asia, the chinese method with overwhelming people getting the job done while sustaining heavy losses, and dictators like Saddam who cared nothing for his military.

Although, when 18 rangers and delta die in mog, its a massive catstrophe, or when the 4 marines were attacked with one being killed in the panamanian capital, it was what we needed for the invasion of panama. When one of our pilots were shot down during the Kosovo conflict, it was made to seem like a whole fighter wing disappeared. I wouldnt be suprised if we are still looking for the 4 torpedo bombers we lost in the bermuda triangle.

I admit, i am part of it. I do think that an American life is worth more than any other life, ally or not. Call it patriotism, unity or simple connection with your fellowcountryman, but its there. I am sure that if you are Israeli, you would think that an IDF soldier is more important than a US marine, or a canadian soldier thinks a IDF guy isn't as important as a fellow canadian soldier.

But how did it come about?

[Argyll]

Every life is precious regardless of who we are or who our leaders are,every casualty of war is someones Father,Son,Brother,Uncle,Mother ,Daughter,Sister or Aunt,

"we feel nothing for our enemies as they feel nothing for us,we weep not for their tears but for our own"

I wrote that

That sums up what you asked

[California Joe]

What he said.

Death of our own causes a particular type of ethnocentrism. It's human. It doesn't reflect badly on anyone. It just is.

[hank]

Argyll - very true - but I don't hink that is necessarily what Nizark meant. Why do we view loss of American lives as such a tragedy? Granted that to us any loss of life is tragic, but lots of other countries don't value life like we do.

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal." We were one of the first countries, if not the first, to recognize this. Then we fought a civil war to prove it. Maybe we are just hard-wired that way. Good question.

[duck]

People in other countries or just the leadership? Families are families everywhere.

[Maverick77]

Every day I get up and turn on CNN to watch the news before I have to go school. Everyday I see 4 U.S Soldiers killed in ambush or U.S Chopper shot down north or Bagdad.

I think nothing of it really.

This morning I woke up and saw "Canadian Soldier killed by Taliban Suicide Bomber in Afghanistan."

I almost punched a hole in the wall

Maybe its because I will be one of them soon I cant really explain it to tell you the truth but it always hits you just a little bit at least when someone from your country dies. Even when you never met them in your life.

[Roger Rabbit]

I knew somone(only briefly, met them once or twice, went out for a drink once) and when i read they had gone out to Bosnia for 6 months i was more shocked than when i heard about any casualties in Iraq.

[California Joe]

What did I just write?

[mustamato]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/enforcer/more****/homeless.gif

[SFontaine]

Yeah I'm sure it's the governments fault he's there.

[Fox2]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/enforcer/more****/homeless.gif

Perhaps unlike most European governments, the American government was not set forth with the idea that it controls its citizens financial status. The citizen is a master of his own life, and therefore, can choose how they want to live. Directly or indirectly.

Perhaps systems like Marxism, Socialism, or Communism were designed to hold your hand and feed you one bite at a time. The US government was not designed to baby its citizens. We decide how high our quality of life is, not the government.

Why can't more people understand this?

[Kilgor]

Why can't more people understand this?

They cant.

Europeans should look at their own social welfare system at the moment which is buckling under the pressure. Once the pension time bomb hits, cradle to the grave socialism will be dead. Be prepared for it.

"The problem with socialists is they soon start running out of other people's money" Margaret Thatcher.

[usa320]

Yeah, ever heard of Laize Faire economics? Its not hte governments job to ensure financial success for every single citizen. They must have the will and desire to go out, find a job and make a living. They also need to take better advantage of the aid the government gives them. Stop using their welfare checks to buy booze and FUBU shirts and use it to buy milk and bread instead.

Im sorry but if a 15 year old can get a job pushing shopping carts, there is no reason these people cant get a job.

[usa320]

One life worth more than another...?

Yes. I think the life of a good man or woman is worth more than the lives of drug dealers, rapists, murders, terrorists and thugs.

[AFG]

This my seem harsh, but my 5th grade teacher (one of the few things i remembered he said) was that dont give money to those who beg (especially those crazy ones that go in the middle of the street and bang at your car). my mem is kinda hazy, but it was something that they usually will buy booze and ciggarettes...

( i live in SF, i see homeless plenty times in the news and in the streets sometimes. i m thinking of doing 'comfort runs' though, which is before school you volunteer to go to one of these food centers and distrubute sandwiches)

[StarvingStudent47]

I'm not going to address the topic of suicide bombing for now--that's a very tough issue on its own. I'll only talk about "human wave attacks" and the like.

Yes, nowadays "proper" militaries (USA, Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ, Israel, etc) place a huge amount of emphasis on each life. 18 dead in Mogadishu was a big deal.

But this is a new phenomenon. D-Day was, at the end of the day, a human wave attack. Iwo Jima was a bloodbath. While we tried to avoid using these sorts of tactics in WWII, we sometimes had to. If we go back another 25 years, things get even worse. In "the Great War," European countries threw away the lives of their soldiers as readily as Iraq and Iran do nowadays. If we go back to the American Civil War, we see carnage that might even make Saddam wince.

Why have we developed such an emphasis on human life? I can't even answer that. Instead, I have to ask: "Why did it take us so long to get here, and why doesn't the rest of the world see things this way too?"

[Nizark]

Argyll - very true - but I don't hink that is necessarily what Nizark meant. Why do we view loss of American lives as such a tragedy? Granted that to us any loss of life is tragic, but lots of other countries don't value life like we do.

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal." We were one of the first countries, if not the first, to recognize this. Then we fought a civil war to prove it. Maybe we are just hard-wired that way. Good question.

So why do we value life more than other countries, or why do countries seem so willing to take massive casualties?[/b]

[Nizark]

Every day I get up and turn on CNN to watch the news before I have to go school. Everyday I see 4 U.S Soldiers killed in ambush or U.S Chopper shot down north or Bagdad.

I think nothing of it really.

This morning I woke up and saw "Canadian Soldier killed by Taliban Suicide Bomber in Afghanistan."

I almost punched a hole in the wall

Maybe its because I will be one of them soon I cant really explain it to tell you the truth but it always hits you just a little bit at least when someone from your country dies. Even when you never met them in your life.

Its always more painful when one of 'your own' dies. And as for the CNN report, i brushed off the canadian's death, but the 4 US troopers dead got me all fired up.

[Kriz]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/enforcer/more****/homeless.gif

Perhaps unlike most European governments, the American government was not set forth with the idea that it controls its citizens financial status. The citizen is a master of his own life, and therefore, can choose how they want to live. Directly or indirectly.

Perhaps systems like Marxism, Socialism, or Communism were designed to hold your hand and feed you one bite at a time. The US government was not designed to baby its citizens. We decide how high our quality of life is, not the government.

Why can't more people understand this?

Uhm what a load of crap, I can hardly believe that people who are born in crappy neighbourhoods in a low income family or in a fmaily where they barely have enough food to eat can decide how high their quality of life is.
The government doesn't decide for us, they just help the people who never had the luck of having for example rich parents.

For example if someone is really smart but his parents can't afford him a decent education (cfr university) wouldn't it be a waste if noone decided to pay some extra so he could get his diploma.

I'm glad our "socialist" system here in Belgium is quite extensive and I reckon there are abuses and problems ahead, like you mentioned. But I don't mind paying some taxes to help other people who are in need. I'ld rather have our government spend millions on good education then have a government like yours that "wastes" billions of dollars on defence.

Just my two cents

[Royal]

As social and health standards in the 'West' have improved, people live longer and child mortality is low. People are not born and do not die at home - they do it out of sight in hospitals (uausally at a ripe old age).

Granted that is a generalisation, but what I am saying is that we have become divorced from death. What was even a hundred years ago a common occurance, is now a rarity. We cannot deal with it.

The other factor, I believe, is our technological superiority over those we have fought in recent years. We believe that we are invincible supermen and are shocked when the hard truth hits us. That IMHO is why Vietnam was so traumatic for the people of the US (and for that matter Australia and New Zealand).

[StarvingStudent47]

I'ld rather have our government spend millions on good education then have a government like yours that "wastes" billions of dollars on defence.

That's a nice luxury you have there. Do you prefer German or Russian? Because if it weren't for OTHER governments (like, say, USA and Britain) that "waste" billions of dollars on defense, you'd be speaking one of those two languages in your "more enlightened" country.

Freedom ain't free, pal.

[Luxembourger]

Freedom ain't free, pal.
exactly

[radon]

And childbirth is low. Not so long time ago families had many children, today they usually have one or two. This is about the rise of humanism.





That's a nice luxury you have there. Do you prefer German or Russian? Because if it weren't for OTHER governments (like, say, USA and Britain) that "waste" billions of dollars on defense, you'd be speaking one of those two languages in your "more enlightened" country.

Freedom ain't free, pal.

But now he can learn english rofl.

[Kitsune]

My life is more worth than any other.

[fisheyestudio]

Hey howdy hey!

This is a tough idea to nail down. Speaking for myself, my thoughts and feelings about the value of life is based on my beliefs as a follower of Jesus. Knowing that He knew me and knit me together in my mothers womb, not just me but every life on the planet, makes me view all lives as precious. There is no greater love than that man lay down his life for his friends, and that is what Jesus did. Since many americans are followers of Jesus then that may explain why life if viewed the way it is here.

By no means is the true in all cases. Many "christians" believe in abortion for example and the paramilitary serb "tigers" did unspeakable acts of evil while giving the three fingered serbian salute (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Religion can be as much a tool of evil as any other institution. Thats why Jesus said a person must be "born again". We can change the outside but only God can change the inside, and thats what matters most.

Jesus blessings!
chris holloman HOH

[WARPIG]

Getting back on subject… human life does take different levels of importance in different cultures. Russians had more people than they had equipment during WWII and used that to their advantage. The lives of the people fighting meant less than the equipment did during that time. Some cultures have children fighting in their military. That is all about perspective. For some cultures a 16 year old is an adult. Many cultures still have very heavy class lines too. The lives of people from lesser classes are often considered unimportant. Hence, their lives are worth less.
Our European buddy saying that we “waste” money on out military. Our military is smaller than it was 10 years ago by 1/3 yet we still spend more per capita on our military than anyone in the world. Ask the families of soldiers if it is a waste to spend money on equipment that increases survivability and lethality. Ask Americans in general if it is a waste.
Is that why we are so affected by American deaths? Because we pay so much to protect them? I doubt it. Look at the training and conduct of the different militaries of the world. If your country’s military has a very limited income, do you use it to train them in ethics, moral courage, and equal opportunity? No.. you train them to shoot, drive, or fly. The US military spends a lot of time and money teaching our soldiers values, ethics, morals, leadership.. etc. We have an image of our soldiers as ambassadors and representatives of our Nation. That is why the poor conduct of some soldiers is so painful or embarrassing to us. That is also why the loss of a soldier is so hard on us. An Iraqi soldier may be a defender of his country when the evil Americans show up but yesterday he was a bully and an oppressor of his own people. His family may mourn his death but not much more.
Our social classes in the US only define our standard of living. If a bum on the street wins the lottery, his social class elevates no matter where his family comes from. Yeah, there are still some people who pay attention to social class as a definition of worth here.. . but in general the US views each others lives in equal terms. We didn’t always. We still have pockets of racism and a history of negative values placed on the lives of different cultures. Look at the way we treated American Indians. Europeans are quick to point that out about Americans but they forget that our culture was rooted in Europe at that time. As our culture became less and less European-like the racism and class lines began to disappear.
As that happens we don't view any one life as more important than the other. The only obvious value is based on the contribution or potential. For example if a gang-banger gets hit by a bus. Not too many tears are shed. If an honor-student that is known for her volunteer work with handicapped childeren is killed... well people are more affected.

Every culture has a different perception for different reasons. I for one am pretty satisfied with our perception.

[Argyll]

"All men are equal.........it's just some are more equal than others!!"

[mustamato]

I'ld rather have our government spend millions on good education then have a government like yours that "wastes" billions of dollars on defence.

That's a nice luxury you have there. Do you prefer German or Russian? Because if it weren't for OTHER governments (like, say, USA and Britain) that "waste" billions of dollars on defense, you'd be speaking one of those two languages in your "more enlightened" country.

Freedom ain't free, pal.

Says a bit about american education, never thought of that belgians perhaps are germanic, and so is there language? So I guess it would be suuuuch a horror for them to become something they already are? :roll: And what is the difference between learning english and learning german (that most belgians can talk anyway). Well, surprise surprise. Most europeans can talk more than one language while most americans can´t. I myself talk 3 fluently and use them daily. So that lame argument (oh you would speak german now ooh the horror) is just retarded. Check this link out: http://www.pisa.oecd.org/ "The OECD programme for international student assesment (PISA)"

Of the results it´s quite clear that the americans don´t spend all too much money on education for their kids in their public schools (just watching Ricki Lake also gives you that idea, however in a bit more unscientific manner). Also the statistics shows that people in the US getting a higher education (University) is very low compared to Europe. Well probably because it costs a assload of money there to even be allowed to study at the school while it doesn´t here, where the school doesn´t charge you a cent. Oh I´m sure the child of the average american family will manage, but will the poor illegal immigrant child from the even more poor family manage with anything in life? Probably not. I think the fact that 50.000 people get killed in US every year says that, and that you have the most people in the world per capita locked up. "Be the master of your own luck". What a bunch of crap.

But well, it´s fine with me that you are doing the "freedom fighting" and risking your lives. Then we don´t have to do it. It´s not often I thank you guys but now I must too. Without you guys I would be sweating in some heated barracks in Siberia now, instead of actually going to go buy myself a pizza (which is Italian so don´t start talking about hypocricy) and a coca cola (yes) :(

[Kriz]

I'ld rather have our government spend millions on good education then have a government like yours that "wastes" billions of dollars on defence.

That's a nice luxury you have there. Do you prefer German or Russian? Because if it weren't for OTHER governments (like, say, USA and Britain) that "waste" billions of dollars on defense, you'd be speaking one of those two languages in your "more enlightened" country.

Freedom ain't free, pal.

Uhm which language is the most important now ?? English, how was that monoploy established, oops by wars :) English , russian, german no big difference to me.
Besides we are taught Dutch, French, German and English in school so what you're saying doesn't make that much sense.

[WARPIG]

Yet another lame attack at the US. Where the hell does this fit into this subject? I have to say the whole “you would be speaking German if it wasn’t for us” crap is just as lame. What is ridiculous is that you know what he means yet you still scrutinize the details instead.
What the hell is mustamato trying to say? Reading his post is like watching turds swirl around a toilet after flushing. The best mustamato can do is to pick out details and flaws and focus on them. Ignore the fact that the US is the first called when muscle is needed. The first called when humanitarian aide is needed. The most sought after place to live in the world. Possible the most culturally diverse countries in the world. Yet with all the power and influence we have yet to try and oppress another country, expand our borders or subjugate our own people. We are an active member of the world community and the perpetual target of apathetic critics. If mediocrity is your idea of perfection.. .well congratulations we are not that! Good job hijacking a forum about the value of human life to another US bashing pissing contest.

Just a little side note. As you bring up military spending against our homeless and education programs… ask yourself if those people who chose not to work, or who would rather milk the government for money than to become a contributing member of society should get a free ride?
Have you noticed that education gets the most aide from private sources? Instead of depending on the government we take it upon ourselves to support our education. Funny how many students from abroad seem to come to the inferior US colleges.

[Salty Dog]

you all suck.

[Sean85]

Of the results it´s quite clear that the americans don´t spend all too much money on education for their kids in their public schools (just watching Ricki Lake also gives you that idea, however in a bit more unscientific manner). Also the statistics shows that people in the US getting a higher education (University) is very low compared to Europe. Well probably because it costs a assload of money there to even be allowed to study at the school while it doesn´t here, where the school doesn´t charge you a cent. Oh I´m sure the child of the average american family will manage, but will the poor illegal immigrant child from the even more poor family manage with anything in life? Probably not. I think the fact that 50.000 people get killed in US every year says that, and that you have the most people in the world per capita locked up. "Be the master of your own luck". What a bunch of crap.

I cant agree with that. Most public schools have to pass there own budget, and in many places, like my town, there is a disproportiante level of old people compared to people who have kids. It takes a at least two tries to pass the budget, that is not the government's fault or the towns. At my school they offered French, German, and Spanish, of which more than half the kids followed it through to taking courses at a local university. Public schools also get more money based on attendance records. So small schools can not get the most money while more populated schools can, because they take their attendance during lunch when more kids show up.

As for the higher education? Most Americans are taught we can do whatever we want with the right attitude, the majority of kids going to college these days are not mature enough to handle living on there own, paying bills, working and worrying about class and because of this many flunk or drop out to come home and go to a local school so they can be close to home.

[cut]

"All men are equal.........it's just some are more equal than others!!"

the funny thing is that cuts both ways, communism obviously, and realism, in the west, everyone is equal, creed,colour whatever, but then you have the oligarchs of russia, the aristocracy in britain (albeit a ****e example) and the rich, my-dad-will-get-me-into-harvard families in america.

You see I like realism, because I was born to a rich* family and have led a very comfortable life. I'm not stuck in terms of getting a job, I have it easy. I would be a communist, if I cared. But in truth no one does, in the West we give to charity every now and then, to stop feeling guilty, but that's it.

I think it's probably not fair that George Bush is where he is because of the family he was born into, because I was born in that kind of situation.

If you live in India and you are in a "untouchable" family, communism is the way to go! and why not? They are not rich enough as a country for almost everyone to be comfortable, so I don't think we could tell them not to.

*comparatively

[Argyll]

Well I'm on the opposite coin from you Cut,I had to work hard to get where I am in life,it is a never ending struggle.
I had to graft my nuts off in the Army to get promotion,I grafted them harder when I was an Instructor,because I wanted to be the best,I wanted no one to find faults in what I did!
In my current job I started at the bottom,and have bust a gut over the last 13 years to get where I am today,I set myself high standards to give people less room to complain!They never question my workrate,and they never question my enthusiasm,I give 110% all the time,as there are those out there who were less fortunate ,who would love to see me screw up!

[Skaman]

Yeah, ever heard of Laize Faire economics? Its not hte governments job to ensure financial success for every single citizen. They must have the will and desire to go out, find a job and make a living. They also need to take better advantage of the aid the government gives them. Stop using their welfare checks to buy booze and FUBU shirts and use it to buy milk and bread instead.

Im sorry but if a 15 year old can get a job pushing shopping carts, there is no reason these people cant get a job.

Just "let it be"

La la la, who cares if citizens die of poverty, its THEIR fault right? Im rich hes dead, WHO CARES? :cantbeli:

[oakes]

Just "let it be"

La la la, who cares if citizens die of poverty, its THEIR fault right? Im rich hes dead, WHO CARES?

Not everyone is rich, but not everyone wants to shoulder the burdens of other peoples mistakes/misfortunes. Granted, some people are given an
advantage in life and others are given' disadvantages, but no comfort is free, so somewhere along the line a very motivated, very enterprising person took it upon themselves to better their lives and the lives of their children. So, sadly, I'd have to say that if you're pushing a shopping cart, it probably means that you don't have the volition to even get a job and contribute to society. It's survival of the fittest. Capitalists and pragmatists accept reality, socialists think they can change it.

[Loco]

So why do we value life more than other countries, or why do countries seem so willing to take massive casualties?
I think it´s a question of well-being, comfort, a basic feeling of living under fair circumstances: "I´m not Rockefeller, but I´m not poor as a rat and I´ve the chance my sons could study and having a better life than mine if they do their share at school or university", I think is something like this. You won´t risk your life easily if you´ve something to keep, and extend it to your society.

[aktarian]

There is an old saying "never fight a land war in Asia". Basically there are too many rulers with I-don't-care-how-many-people-have-to-die-as-long-as-I-get-my-way attitude. Look at Vietnam. Can you think of any nation that would be willing to endure this kind of hardships for so long to get theri way? Or Afghans? Almost 25 years of war and some still didn't have enough. Or GW1, longest conventional conflict in 20th century. Both countries practically broke, more than 1/2 million dead each, debt that woun't be paid off by grandchildren of today's kids. But did they stop? No. Or Japanese. War was lost but they kept fighting. Or Chinese. Japanese occupation followed by civil war. Did they say "Hey, enough is enough, we will loose all population here."? No. Or Chinese "volunteers".

West places much emphasis on individualism and interests of individual. Others don't and place interests of a group before their own interests. There is a root of different outlooks on "worth of life". If you value individual interests than one life is worth a lot. If you value group interests than one life, comapred to group, is worth less.

[Loco]

West places much emphasis on individualism and interests of individual.
Only since yesterday, so to speak, this is since there are fair governments and fair relationships between western states, and you could add Japan of today: they aren´t like their grandfathers, something changed in Japan. Everyone will fight until it´s necessary, nor less, all men are the same around the globe.

[Falco]

Well from a political point of view, american leaders are elected by american votes not iraki votes and not afghani votes. As for the question about what is an acceptable loss well I guess that it's cultural.

[cut]

Well I'm on the opposite coin from you Cut,I had to work hard to get where I am in life,it is a never ending struggle.
I had to graft my nuts off in the Army to get promotion,I grafted them harder when I was an Instructor,because I wanted to be the best,I wanted no one to find faults in what I did!
In my current job I started at the bottom,and have bust a gut over the last 13 years to get where I am today,I set myself high standards to give people less room to complain!They never question my workrate,and they never question my enthusiasm,I give 110% all the time,as there are those out there who were less fortunate ,who would love to see me screw up!

but you see my point right? and even if I am in this situation at least I see the whole picture and I'm honest about it. Also people slag off socialism, well new labours socialist ideal of getting more people into unis means it is not easy for someone who went to a private school to wing their way into jobs, and giving the rest of the country a better deal, despite all it's criticisms. And that's a merit the americans on the board have yet to understand.

[Fox2]

Just "let it be"

La la la, who cares if citizens die of poverty, its THEIR fault right? Im rich hes dead, WHO CARES? :cantbeli:

Of course people care. The point being made is it's not the GOVERNMENT's job!

There are many, many programs here in the 'States for the homeless and less fortunate. A lot are run by the government. And some are run by the private sector.

Some of the homeless here aren't just homeless because they were born less fortunate. One man I remember who walked my street, and I helped, had been a well-to-do business man. He went to church every week. He was comfortable. Something went wrong in his life and sent him into a deep depression. He went insane, started drinking. He ended up on the street.

Everything is not always cut and dry. The founding members of this nation did so because they wanted a government that didn't rule their lives. They wanted to be allowed to follow any religion they wanted. They wanted to be able to say things that may be against the government, and not be struck down. They wanted a government run by the people. They didn't want a government that babies them.

[Cael]

It's so funny how people talk like they know. It definitely isn't the government's job, you actually gotta do crap to get crap. If there's anyone here who's had the benefits of this lovely country it's me and my family.
We weren't from here but we worked to get here. It took 5 years to get my family to get to this country legally, and 3 of those years we were seperated from our dad as he spent most of his time working in the US. Once we got here we had no money. It was so easy to become homeless, and there weren't any good jobs because their prior education didn't mean much. What made it even worste was my mom getting pregnant (if you have a family then you know that's a big set back financially). We hardly had any support from anyone, but it was our choice to stay on that situation or not.
My parents including us children worked our asses off. We took the advantages of education and government aids. It sounds pretty damn corny but we've all got some damn good education now. Including the oldest having gone through law school.
Who knows, it may be because God must have heard all our prayers, but any bad situation can be made better if the person has the will to.

I meet with a lot of the homeless people out here, and if any of them were honest to you then most of them would tell you truthfully that they put themselves in that situation.

[WARPIG]

I hate to contribute to the hi-jacking of this thread but this has to be the stupidest comment I have heard today.

La la la, who cares if citizens die of poverty, its THEIR fault right? Im rich hes dead, WHO CARES?
We don’t care about homeless people so we give Churches and private organizations millions of tax dollars in kick backs for running soup kitchens or shelters.
We don’t care about homeless people so figure out why the biggest groups of people doing charity work for homeless or poverty level income families is our teenagers.
We don’t care about giving people with nothing the opportunity to live and work for a comfortable living or better! You know that guy that people like to call a Warmonger? What is his name?? George something… he is pushing to give even the illegal immigrants to this country an opportunity to make a living here. All this while we are still in a war against terror.
I volunteer to feed homeless every month in the middle of the city I live in. The people I go with live in one of the wealthiest counties in the country. They show up every month and feed several hundred people. They also buy socks and underwear out of their own money and distribute them. This weekend they showed up in 15 degree weather.

La la la, who cares if citizens die of poverty, its THEIR fault right? Im rich hes dead, WHO CARES?
Have you ever seen that movie Ace Ventura where Jim Carrey's character talks out of his ass?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Since this is turning into another "America sucks" thread, I would note that the US Constitution does not say that all people are equal. It says that they are created equal.

Everybody starts out at the bottom of a very long staircase, and it's up to them to start climbing. Some make it, some make it half way, some won't climb. After they're created, people are certainly not equal.

Between 1965 and 1995 the US taxpayers spent $1,505,136,000,000 on social welfare programs. Since that data is old, I'll add $100 billion per year since then, since that's what we were spending - for a grand total of $2,305,136,000,000. Nobody is going hungry. In fact, the taxpayers actually pay to advertise these programs since they are so under-utilized. And people like that annoying Lesko bastard make a living just by telling people how much is available.

In our endless quest for egalitarianism, the US government as taken nearly 2.5 trillion dollars from the haves & given it to the have nots. "Living in poverty" in the US can involve a color TV with cable, a PC, a car, & central heat and air. Sweet sassy molassy, that's better than I had it when I was in the active military. In fact, when they closed one base I was at, they plowed under the house I lived at, rather than give it to the "homeless" because it was not good enough.

[Argyll]

I've just been wondering if the lives of the Law Enforcement roles are any less value than those of the Military in the USA?
Every time a soldier dies doing his duty there seems to be a mass outpouring of grief,but if an officer of the Law dies in the Line Of duty,the impact seems lessened,why is this?Nobody post's to say RIP to those LE men and Women who fall?
I'm reflecting today through a tragedy that happened yesterday to 2 friends of mine that resulted in the loss of one of their lives,that has reverberated around our Company,the mood is solemn,nobody is in the mood to work..this happened at sea,and they were doing their job as sub contractors to my Company,and one of them tragically lost his life,now they were not Military,but they were friends,and above all descent human beings,and I feel this loss...as do most of the employees in the Company.

[aktarian]

I've just been wondering if the lives of the Law Enforcement roles are any less value than those of the Military in the USA?
Every time a soldier dies doing his duty there seems to be a mass outpouring of grief,but if an officer of the Law dies in the Line Of duty,the impact seems lessened,why is this?Nobody post's to say RIP to those LE men and Women who fall?
I'm reflecting today through a tragedy that happened yesterday to 2 friends of mine that resulted in the loss of one of their lives,that has reverberated around our Company,the mood is solemn,nobody is in the mood to work..this happened at sea,and they were doing their job as sub contractors to my Company,and one of them tragically lost his life,now they were not Military,but they were friends,and above all descent human beings,and I feel this loss...as do most of the employees in the Company.

Crime has become part of our lives. And with crime innocent bystanders and LE peopel get killed. Saddly that is business as usual. OTOH war isn't on same level and is still seen as soemthing special, something that happens rarelly. And when soldiers die it isn't business as usual.

[Seiyuuki]

...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I think that's more a function of how the press handles things. For the people involved the reaction is the same - a death is a death. But the press has its' own agenda and chooses to report on what they consider "sexy" news...

[SOG]

I've just been wondering if the lives of the Law Enforcement roles are any less value than those of the Military in the USA?
Every time a soldier dies doing his duty there seems to be a mass outpouring of grief,but if an officer of the Law dies in the Line Of duty,the impact seems lessened,why is this?Nobody post's to say RIP to those LE men and Women who fall?

actually i see the same outpouring per say as in each command and family and friends are in turn effected by the death on a similar scale. the only difference "now" is that the military is deployed so thier media coverage is much much higher so more people are aware of it because each military death is a ringing political point to be haggled and yelled over sadly.

a cop dies, nothing, a marine dies, nothing. effects thier personal "circle" really as does anyones death. marine dies during war time, then its a deal and possibly a bigger deal on how he died. this is again what the media capitalizes on, extremes. marine gets shot in war, duely noted, marine gets blown up by suicide bomber, oh thats horrible. even though death is death the media portrays it as some death worse than any other. again, the media skims life and really feeds you extremes.

because the worlds attention is hotly focused on iraq the media feeds you iraq. but the media doesnt give a crap when a local navy seals parachute fails to deploy and he dies. this barely made the local news for a minute during the day.

as for people posting rips, on this board, since its a mil site and we dont get much in the way of law enforcement then thats self explanatory. im sure at a LE community website etc that it would happen.

then factor in having to care on a personal level of, do i have friends in that line of work, can i sympathize personally? sure it sucks that anyone dies unnaturally or before thier time but thats life, thats the living lottery. 1 person in new york dies, thats life. 3000 people in new york die, wait, somethings really wrong with that. we are conditioned to life and death as we live it, anything outside that and we take notice personally.


::as for the main discussion::
how you grow up conditions you one way compared to another who may see 10x the amount of life lost and think it normal. therefore we feel bad for them but to them its the norm.

100 years ago we had thousands more dying in the US of the flu and that was the norm, not a epidemic because thats what they lived with. nowdays its different.

we are even further removed on a international level. it is hard to care about the health and wellfare of a few hundred million local people that you dont know anything about let alone from another country around the globe. now of course you can when you can personally sympathize with a certain event wether its job related or tragic on a huge scale.

::as for people and thier chances in life::
i was born poor as hell, no dad, single mom, most of my life. lived in a **** small desert town then a decent sized multi cultural ghetto most of my life. i made damn sure not to do drugs like some of my friends or drink excessively like some of my friends because i wanted to be damn sure i lived life. most people regardless of where they came from have this chance.

unforteantly living where i have lived, i have seen some kids who were basically born into a sort of slavery hell thier parents brought on them and literally they knew no other life but of crime and death and thats the way it is. i think that is tragicand i have seen it escalate somewhat in very big cities. i can say having been there and grown up with similarly poor people, they had thier choices and i have seen many piss it away. sad, but thats on them.

[WARPIG]

In my opinion it is a combination of both. We are used to seeing reports of Police killed. It is an everyday occurance in the world. The media covers those events according to the impact or sensation it will generate.

War coverage has tapered off as well. The only reason for the media to cover casualties now is to "keep score."

I also beleive that the different circumstances and the people reported make a difference. For instance if an active infantry soldier is killed in action.. the coverage will depend on the circumstance and hype that the media will gain from it. If a 19 year old, female, reservist, prom queen gets killed the same way... CNN top story. Not just because the media feels it that way; but we as media consumers pay attention to that.

One other factor may be the overall public image of police. Here in the US people have a love/hate image of police. The majority of the personal contact with police and the general public is negative. Either you are talking to them cause you broke a law or because you needed them. If you needed them, chances are they didn't do as much as you wanted them to. Soldiers are seen as protecting freedom.. cops are policing us. Neither has any more worth than the other... just that they are viewed differently.