Battle of Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down) - 12 yrs. later.

[Firetxmi]

I am not saying that I agree with this article, although I have never read this writers work before, but it is interesting none-the-less. Before everyone starts flaming each other read the article, think about if it happened in your town. What would you feel? What would you do? Dont get me wrong, Aidid was not a good man- not at all! I just think that this is an interesting article because it tells how some of the villagers feel about it 12 years later. Personally I believe their anger is misplaced, but I can still feel sorry for them- they didn't ask to live in a country with so much turmoil. Just thought yall would enjoy.

Here is the article: http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b//hotzone/blogs999

It was on Yahoo headline news a few min. ago. p-)

[Durandal]

Hmmm...

I have heard it before.

No one ever blames the war lords and the thousands of their soldiers who were probably even more responsible for killing innocents than the Americans. At no time did Americans, who were there providing aid, deliberately target innocent civilians. War sucks, period.

Rationally, the woman who lost her daughter should blame the people that actually SHOT DOWN the Black Hawk.

With that said, I think what it comes down to is that we decided upon (as nation via Clinton) to change our policy in Somalia. We decided that we were going to play policemen in a nation of criminals using the exact opposite force we should have been using. The Marines left...heavy armor and APCs were replaced by Humvees and Trucks and light fighters. Then we changed policy and then...doctrine. Then everything fell apart.

However, as much as I blame Clinton for the total lack of anything resembling rational policy in this action, America as a whole is not to blame. I think of the more horrid examples of indiscriminate fire by other U.N. forces such as the Pakistanis and I wonder of the article itself is merely the propaganda piece it (via its interviews) claims Black Hawk down is.

With that said, 12 years later I can look back TWO years and see that after a decade of "learning" from our mistake there, we did little to put it to good measure in Iraq. We certainly did in Afghanistan, but I remember going nuts when I heard our Armored Division was trading in M1s and Bradley's for Humvees and Trucks...different branch some BS...

The article is crap...and does little to prove to the reader anything resembling reality or the reporters ability to interpret it.

[SuperShot5000]

Change the title to "Battle of Magadishu - 12 Years Later." Black Hawk Down was a movie, not the event.

[ramy]

the hell with Somalia...

They can continue on the path they are going now and maybe in another 10-12 years their nation's population will be reduced by another 10%.

[Miles.]

http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b//hotzone/blogs999

Ah, our old buddy, Kevin Sites.

He's a true scumbag. He's the left's answer to Michael Yon. Not that Michael Yon is a right-winger, but he reports accurately and has enough balls to leave the hotel room and get news besides the daily casualty counts. Kevin Sites, when he went outside the lines, screwed the Marines he was with, by releasing that video and feeding out-of-context footage to Al-Jazeera.

SCUMBAG, thy name is Kevin Sites.

[Michael RVR]

The guy who approved this should be shot, seriously. After all i've read about it i still cant understand the logic -'We can't capture them, so its better to kill them'.


17-minute combat mission

What eventually took place on July 12, 1993, was a 17-minute combat operation in which U.S. Cobra attack helicopters fired 16 TOW missiles and thousands of 20-millimeter cannon rounds into the compound.

When the operation was over and the smoke had cleared, more than 50 of the clan elders, the oldest and most respected in their community, were dead. Many here agree that was the turning point in unifying Somalians against the U.S. and U.N. efforts here.

It would also lead to the deaths of four journalists, killed by angry Somali mobs when they arrived to cover the incident.

Concrete block of Swiss cheese

Duguf takes me back to the house where the elders had been meeting. Twelve years later, it is still standing but is nothing more than a concrete block of Swiss cheese. Large blast holes pock most of the walls, and pieces of metal rebar poke through the concrete. The back staircase is completely blown apart.

"That was to prevent (the elders) from escaping," Duguf says. "It was the first thing (the helicopters) shot at."

[Firetxmi]

Ah, our old buddy, Kevin Sites.

He's a true scumbag. He's the left's answer to Michael Yon. Not that Michael Yon is a right-winger, but he reports accurately and has enough balls to leave the hotel room and get news besides the daily casualty counts. Kevin Sites, when he went outside the lines, screwed the Marines he was with, by releasing that video and feeding out-of-context footage to Al-Jazeera.

SCUMBAG, thy name is Kevin Sites.

Like I said in my original post I've never heard of the man, or seen any of his work. I got it off Yahoo Headlines, so I suppose now Yahoo is a bunch of Left-Wing-Liberal-Media jerks right? rofl Relax people it was a joke.

[mi35d]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

[Miles.]

Ah, our old buddy, Kevin Sites.

He's a true scumbag. He's the left's answer to Michael Yon. Not that Michael Yon is a right-winger, but he reports accurately and has enough balls to leave the hotel room and get news besides the daily casualty counts. Kevin Sites, when he went outside the lines, screwed the Marines he was with, by releasing that video and feeding out-of-context footage to Al-Jazeera.

SCUMBAG, thy name is Kevin Sites.

Like I said in my original post I've never heard of the man, or seen any of his work. I got it off Yahoo Headlines, so I suppose now Yahoo is a bunch of Left-Wing-Liberal-Media jerks right? rofl Relax people it was a joke.

I didn't say anything about you...did I?

What are you so defensive about? ;)

[Firetxmi]

Relax, your a fellow Texan (Plano, here), I couldn't be mad. :D

I didn't mean to offend you, I was just was making a joke (er, generalization, or something :lol: ).

[Miles.]

Relax, your a fellow Texan (Plano, here), I couldn't be mad. :D

I didn't mean to offend you, I was just was making a joke (er, generalization, or something :lol: ).

I live in Plano, sometimes. woot

[Nikitaras]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

[joe mama]

17-minute combat mission
What eventually took place on July 12, 1993, was a 17-minute combat operation in which U.S. Cobra attack helicopters fired 16 TOW missiles and thousands of 20-millimeter cannon rounds into the compound...
...On a wall in the front room the date 12.06.93 is written, and beside it, in Somali, the word "Remember."

June...July...ah, whatever, it's only a month difference, I can't be bothered to be accurate about something silly like a date. I'm sure everything else he wrote is perfectly researched and thorougly accurate. Sure it is.

[Durandal]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

[Nikitaras]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

Mission Creep began almost immediatly while still under Bush Sr. thats a fact. Clinton's mistake was putting the whole mission under UN control which severely escalated the situation.

[Baboonass]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

I don't blame anyone other than we should never have left unitl the mission was complete. The initial respose was as successfull as possible, but see as Adid was still in power, it was all for not. Taking Addid out of power was the only viable option.

The Cobra attack on the meeting was a big step backwards. Had it been Adid like the intel said it was, it would have been wildly successfull. I agree with the use of force for this op, but someone should have been on the ground providing intel before the strike. Hind sight is 20/20, so it's easy to armchair quarterback this scenerio now. "Whoever planned this mission should be shot"... phhht :roll: Spoken like someone never in an environment were rounds are being exchanged.

Anyway, TF-Ranger was a noble endever. Although we only hear about BHD, there were a lot of successfull missions prior to the "battle of black sea."

Our actions, (or lack of action) after this changed the entire dynamics of our impression of fighting capability to the world untill the GWOT/OIF. So we suffered a few losses, it's war, it happens. It would hae been far better to continue the mission and restore stability to the region. The impression of the U.S. leaving with our tail between our legs is something I blame the Clinton administration for. I can't just point my finger at Clinton though, many Republican senetors were calling for the withdrawl of troops as well. A stupid move and shamefull if the motivation was mearly political.

This blog/website is pure liberal propaganda.

[Baboonass]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

Mission Creep began almost immediatly while still under Bush Sr. thats a fact. Clinton's mistake was putting the whole mission under UN control which severely escalated the situation.

Mission creep in what way?

I'm just trying to define what you are talking about.

[Geezah]

Clinton's mistake was putting the whole mission under UN control which severely escalated the situation.

Troops were deployed more times under Clinton's than they had been under any other President in over 50yrs. During that time allot of it was under the UNs control.

[Nikitaras]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

Mission Creep began almost immediatly while still under Bush Sr. thats a fact. Clinton's mistake was putting the whole mission under UN control which severely escalated the situation.

Mission creep in what way?

I'm just trying to define what you are talking about.

Mission creep in the fact that the humanitarian mission very rapidly turned into direct involvement in the Somali power struggle. Like it or not we were definitly picking sides when Aidid became enemy number one.

[Baboonass]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

Mission Creep began almost immediatly while still under Bush Sr. thats a fact. Clinton's mistake was putting the whole mission under UN control which severely escalated the situation.




Mission creep in what way?

I'm just trying to define what you are talking about.

Mission creep in the fact that the humanitarian mission very rapidly turned into direct involvement in the Somali power struggle. Like it or not we were definitly picking sides when Aidid became enemy number one.

Gotcha.

In a country of absoultly no government, Adid's gangs were the only viable power. His defiance of UN law in undermining our effort to establish stability to the region made him a prime target.

For the operation to be successfull, Adid had to be taken out of power. Kind of like if Crips had taken control of South Central L.A., someone would have to take their leadership out of power to re-establish civility.

I think the effort was noble and the only viable option. Adid refused to work with the UN, but then that is a political shortfall, not a military shortfall.

Did we take sides? Sure, we took the side of the general poplous in trying to stop genocide. There were no recognizable government entities vieing for power, only roving gangs of thugs looking for a seat on the top.

We took the side of the clan leadships that wanted us to provide aid and comfirt to the region, to help establish a functioning system, to stop the bloodshed.

Somolia was a noble endevor that failed because of politics, bad intel, and the lack of will or backbone of our government to finish what we started regardless of the possiblity of a loss of life.

Militarily we did very well there.

[Nikitaras]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

Mission Creep began almost immediatly while still under Bush Sr. thats a fact. Clinton's mistake was putting the whole mission under UN control which severely escalated the situation.




Mission creep in what way?

I'm just trying to define what you are talking about.

Mission creep in the fact that the humanitarian mission very rapidly turned into direct involvement in the Somali power struggle. Like it or not we were definitly picking sides when Aidid became enemy number one.

Gotcha.

In a country of absoultly no government, Adid's gangs were the only viable power. His defiance of UN law in undermining our effort to establish stability to the region made him a prime target.

For the operation to be successfull, Adid had to be taken out of power. Kind of like if Crips had taken control of South Central L.A., someone would have to take their leadership out of power to re-establish civility.

I think the effort was noble and the only viable option. Adid refused to work with the UN, but then that is a political shortfall, not a military shortfall.

Did we take sides? Sure, we took the side of the general poplous in trying to stop genocide. There were no recognizable government entities vieing for power, only roving gangs of thugs looking for a seat on the top.

We took the side of the clan leadships that wanted us to provide aid and comfirt to the region, to help establish a functioning system, to stop the bloodshed.

Somolia was a noble endevor that failed because of politics, bad intel, and the lack of will or backbone of our government to finish what we started regardless of the possiblity of a loss of life.

Militarily we did very well there.

Matchanu I hear where you are coming from; however, when I said we took sides I meant that we targeted Aideed(whos militiamen initially aided our forces) and allowed Ali Mahdi's men to operate unhindered. This was viewd by Aideed and the clans he was alied with as a direct foreign involvement into the power struggle and turned his forces against the UN/US military.

[Baboonass]

Did seem to be a wrong move from the start...

Blame Bush Sr.

Nah, he did the moral correct thing, be part of an international presence to help feed people.

Clinton changed that mission.

Mission Creep began almost immediatly while still under Bush Sr. thats a fact. Clinton's mistake was putting the whole mission under UN control which severely escalated the situation.




Mission creep in what way?

I'm just trying to define what you are talking about.

Mission creep in the fact that the humanitarian mission very rapidly turned into direct involvement in the Somali power struggle. Like it or not we were definitly picking sides when Aidid became enemy number one.

Gotcha.

In a country of absoultly no government, Adid's gangs were the only viable power. His defiance of UN law in undermining our effort to establish stability to the region made him a prime target.

For the operation to be successfull, Adid had to be taken out of power. Kind of like if Crips had taken control of South Central L.A., someone would have to take their leadership out of power to re-establish civility.

I think the effort was noble and the only viable option. Adid refused to work with the UN, but then that is a political shortfall, not a military shortfall.

Did we take sides? Sure, we took the side of the general poplous in trying to stop genocide. There were no recognizable government entities vieing for power, only roving gangs of thugs looking for a seat on the top.

We took the side of the clan leadships that wanted us to provide aid and comfirt to the region, to help establish a functioning system, to stop the bloodshed.

Somolia was a noble endevor that failed because of politics, bad intel, and the lack of will or backbone of our government to finish what we started regardless of the possiblity of a loss of life.

Militarily we did very well there.

Matchanu I hear where you are coming from; however, when I said we took sides I meant that we targeted Aideed(whos militiamen initially aided our forces) and allowed Ali Mahdi's men to operate unhindered. This was viewd by Aideed and the clans he was alied with as a direct foreign involvement into the power struggle and turned his forces against the UN/US military.

Good point.

Granted, having the UN involved with this mission had good points and bad points. There were some underlying politics going on under the guise of the relief effort. I think we got caught in the middle of this weather it was intentional or not.

We probably could have done a better job with this politically. I don't think we knew enough about clan leadership and function. Still, Adid's clan was loathed by the majority of the civilian populous. Adid was controling Mog with fear and terror,(not to mention starvation) he had to go.

[Nikitaras]

Granted, having the UN involved with this mission had good points and bad points. There were some underlying politics going on under the guise of the relief effort. I think we got caught in the middle of this weather it was intentional or not.

Agreed 100%.

We probably could have done a better job with this politically. I don't think we knew enough about clan leadership and function.

This seems to be the historical number one problem of Western forces even in the current situation in Iraq.


Still, Adid's clan was loathed by the majority of the civilian populous. Adid was controling Mog with fear and terror,(not to mention starvation) he had to go.

Actually it was 60-40. The Habr Gidr clan enjoyed wide popularity among their area of Mogadishu. The problem was that the the area is so tribal and fractious that the warlords took advantage on every issue. Viloence was a way of life in Somalia, which is true of any country who has never known a representative government and has a history of tribalism,colonialism, dictatorship and anarchy.

[Baboonass]

Granted, having the UN involved with this mission had good points and bad points. There were some underlying politics going on under the guise of the relief effort. I think we got caught in the middle of this weather it was intentional or not.

Agreed 100%.

We probably could have done a better job with this politically. I don't think we knew enough about clan leadership and function.

This seems to be the historical number one problem of Western forces even in the current situation in Iraq.


Still, Adid's clan was loathed by the majority of the civilian populous. Adid was controling Mog with fear and terror,(not to mention starvation) he had to go.

Actually it was 60-40. The Habr Gidr clan enjoyed wide popularity among their area of Mogadishu. The problem was that the the area is so tribal and fractious that the warlords took advantage on every issue. Viloence was a way of life in Somalia, which is true of any country who has never known a representative government and has a history of tribalism,colonialism, dictatorship and anarchy.


I blame the undermining of our inteligence agencies durring the Carter administration and the lack of effort to rebuild it from every administration after. Our inteligence should be top notch, but we suffer greatly from our lack of HUMINT. Things are being fixed now, but we have been blind on these matters for far too long. Probably part of the reason for our troubles today.

O.k. o.k. I'm ranting.

I disagree, (although splitting hairs) about the way of life in Somolia. Only the city of Mogadishu really had everyday violence as a problem. Most of the outlying cities had very little knowlege of the goings on in the big city. Down in Kismyou(sp?), it was a different world. Most people there seemed pretty content in their fishing and everyday life.

Somolia did enjoy a brief period of a form of government, (Itailan colonialism), so the concept was not foriegn to them.

So, even in hindsight, what should we, (the US/UN) have done?

Even now I still think taking Adid out of power was a common denomiator. But the process should have been handled better.