Health Care

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Out of interest how much do any of you guys contribute every year to health insurance schemes or policies, ball park figures would be OK, I would also be interested in how much companies contribute to staff policies.

[Seoulstriker]

organic chemistry lab is such a bitch, and now my suitemate left huge feces in my toilet. i'll let him unclog that.

[Seoulstriker]

my health care is taken care of in my tuition.

[Herrmannek]

While I'm student medical treatment is almost for free...

[Sabre]

Don't pay taxes so i don't pay for health care. When I do, it's free at the point of use.

[cut]

I'm another student, so again it's free, except when I go travelling and that's rarely more than £100.

Are we getting you down yet?

[Roger Rabbit]

Student scum so i scrounge off the government

[Jack Mehoff]

I never get sick or seriously hurt

[Herrmannek]

I never get sick or seriously hurt
If you want we can arange this for you...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I'm shocked that everybody so far is enjoying socialist-style health care. Throw off the chains of your opressors & embrace freedom! Oh wait, you're not opressed..other people are footing the bill. :lol:

Me, I pony up $170 a month & my employer gets stuck with $499/mo.

When I was a contractor, I paid it all myself & was covered by COBRA. That stung my a$$ to the tune of $906/mo, all paid by me. Ow.

[Scrim]

Isnt it grand, I pay $750 a month for something I never use. The best part is the deductible of $500, that never gets met. It would almost be worth getting a serious disease, just to stick it to the insurance company, but then id probably get dropped. Ahhh Land Of The Free.....

[Seoulstriker]

Isnt it grand, I pay $750 a month for something I never use. The best part is the deductible of $500, that never gets met. It would almost be worth getting a serious disease, just to stick it to the insurance company, but then id probably get dropped. Ahhh Land Of The Free.....


$750 a month for health insurance????????

i suggest you drop the health insurance and save the money for future problems. :| seriously.

[Jack Mehoff]

I never get sick or seriously hurt
If you want we can arange this for you...

Are you going to give me enough weeds until i overdose?

[[AFSOC]]

ITs free in Canada...

[Seoulstriker]

]ITs free in Canada...

don't get me started about this.......

let me just correct you briefly: the amount you pay per year in taxes to support the socialized health care system is much more than what you get out of the system. in other words, it's extremely inefficient, and you get more for what you pay for in the US.

[Seiyuuki]

]ITs free in Canada...

It is NOT free!!! Doctors, nurses, etc. need to get pay and want to get pay, money doesn't appear out of thin air...

[Haiw]

It doesn't?

[AFG]

]ITs free in Canada...

It is NOT free!!! Doctors, nurses, etc. need to get pay and want to get pay, money doesn't appear out of thin air...

no no it grows in trees :D

jk

[Haiw]

I've been trying to grow money on my back, but the attempts have been unsuccesfull so far. :(

[Fox2]

I've been trying to grow money on my back, but the attempts have been unsuccesfull so far. :(

Doughgaine? p-)

[Skaman]

]ITs free in Canada...

don't get me started about this.......

let me just correct you briefly: the amount you pay per year in taxes to support the socialized health care system is much more than what you get out of the system. in other words, it's extremely inefficient, and you get more for what you pay for in the US.


Not exactly.....

[martinexsquaddie]

Considering that the US health care system failed to make it into the top 10 in the World health organisations last report.
even though more is spent in the US on health care than anywhere else I would'nt go around saying how efficent your health care system is.

[cut]

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei


FULL LIST (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html)

[Herrmannek]

Good we managed to first 50 :)

[martinexsquaddie]

thats got to hurt being a lot worse than france

[cut]

thats got to hurt being a lot worse than france

ooh I don't know but 10 places behind UAE has got to be painful.

[Haiw]

Notice how lots of countries with socialized health-care are listed above the US... :lol:

*deafening silence from the yanks* :P

[Skaman]

Notice how lots of countries with socialized health-care are listed above the US... :lol:

*deafening silence from the yanks* :P


yep

[Scrim]

This was just getting interesting. Where did everyone go.
There is something seriously wrong with the US health care system.

[Seoulstriker]

yeah, let's go socialize our health care system so that the poor subsidize the rich. yeah, that's a GREAT system. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


tax credits and tax deductions for health care. there. now stop bugging me. :-*$

:hug: woot

[cut]

yeah, let's go socialize our health care system so that the poor subsidize the rich. yeah, that's a GREAT system. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Nah the rich often go private. So it's more likely to be the otherway round.

[Seoulstriker]

yeah, let's go socialize our health care system so that the poor subsidize the rich. yeah, that's a GREAT system. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Nah the rich often go private. So it's more likely to be the otherway round.


hahahahah.... so you think the rich will pay for health care when they can get it for free?


tax credits and tax deductions for the health care, for those who can't afford it out of pocket, are the answer. next question?

:D :D :D

[Trigger]

Notice how lots of countries with socialized health-care are listed above the US... :lol:

*deafening silence from the yanks* :P
Notice how American's still live longer than those on 'the list'.

ducimus19 wrote:

yep
Must be all the McDonalds we eat.
yep

[cut]

Notice how American's still live longer than those on 'the list'.



oh, you mean the devlopping countries that have a better health care system then you?

[Seoulstriker]

and notice how much better our medical technology is than the rest of the world... and notice how US doctors are the best in the world... notice how the US is the center of medical research in the world. notice how france had lost what, like 25,000 elderly people to a heat wave???? :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: and they're #1 on the list... :bash: :bash: :bash:

[Seoulstriker]

Notice how American's still live longer than those on 'the list'.



oh, you mean the devlopping countries that have a better health care system then you?

ok...... do you even know what that list measures???

[cut]

yeah, let's go socialize our health care system so that the poor subsidize the rich. yeah, that's a GREAT system. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Nah the rich often go private. So it's more likely to be the otherway round.


hahahahah.... so you think the rich will pay for health care when they can get it for free?


tax credits and tax deductions for the health care, for those who can't afford it out of pocket, are the answer. next question?



I know so. Healthcare may be 'free' in this country but that just means more people can use it, hence waiting lists, if you can afford not to wait and go private then you will. next? ;)

[Seoulstriker]

yeah, let's go socialize our health care system so that the poor subsidize the rich. yeah, that's a GREAT system. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Nah the rich often go private. So it's more likely to be the otherway round.


hahahahah.... so you think the rich will pay for health care when they can get it for free?


tax credits and tax deductions for the health care, for those who can't afford it out of pocket, are the answer. next question?



I know so. Healthcare may be 'free' in this country but that just means more people can use it, hence waiting lists, if you can afford not to wait and go private then you will. next? ;)

so now this is back to economics? yes, you're right, if people don't want to wait, they will pay for health care. do you know what it costs for that person? more than double. cause they pay taxes! $5,000 per year of taxes for someone who makes $80,000-$100,000 is extremely inefficient. what happens when you don't need to use the health care for 10 years? you lose $50,000. not very efficient.

woot

[cut]

so now this is back to economics? yes, you're right, if people don't want to wait, they will pay for health care. do you know what it costs for that person? more than double. cause they pay taxes! $5,000 per year of taxes for someone who makes $80,000-$100,000 is extremely inefficient. what happens when you don't need to use the health care for 10 years? you lose $50,000. not very efficient.



I'm not saying the rich don't pay twice, but they have to pay taxes which is less of burden to them then it is for the poor. But the rich know this they have considered this and that is why they decide to pay for private health care. In fact it's not just the rich quite a few people get BUPA health insurance out of there own pocket or through work, but thse who can't afford it don't have to risk living uninsured like in the US they have nothing to worry about.

But anyway the point I was discussing and you moved away from is that the poor are not paying for the rich. Wether the rich decide to pay twice or not.

[cut]

and notice how much better our medical technology is than the rest of the world... and notice how US doctors are the best in the world... notice how the US is the center of medical research in the world. notice how france had lost what, like 25,000 elderly people to a heat wave???? :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: and they're #1 on the list... :bash: :bash: :bash:

they still have the best health care system in the world!

Why must these kind of NGO statistics be taken as gospel when the US comes top of their list and yet when it is some other country it is obvious to you that it is wrong.

[Seoulstriker]

and notice how much better our medical technology is than the rest of the world... and notice how US doctors are the best in the world... notice how the US is the center of medical research in the world. notice how france had lost what, like 25,000 elderly people to a heat wave???? :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: and they're #1 on the list... :bash: :bash: :bash:

they still have the best health care system in the world!

Why must these kind of NGO statistics be taken as gospel when the US comes top of their list and yet when it is some other country it is obvious to you that it is wrong.

again, what do they measure. free vs. pay, who do you think is going to be on top?

and you haven't addressed what the french system actually revealed: it can't take care of elderly.

[Seoulstriker]

so now this is back to economics? yes, you're right, if people don't want to wait, they will pay for health care. do you know what it costs for that person? more than double. cause they pay taxes! $5,000 per year of taxes for someone who makes $80,000-$100,000 is extremely inefficient. what happens when you don't need to use the health care for 10 years? you lose $50,000. not very efficient.



I'm not saying the rich don't pay twice, but they have to pay taxes which is less of burden to them then it is for the poor. But the rich know this they have considered this and that is why they decide to pay for private health care. In fact it's not just the rich quite a few people get BUPA health insurance out of there own pocket or through work, but thse who can't afford it don't have to risk living uninsured like in the US they have nothing to worry about.

But anyway the point I was discussing and you moved away from is that the poor are not paying for the rich. Wether the rich decide to pay twice or not.

first, why do you say that the rich can deal with having most of their money taken away by the government? and the poor ARE paying for the rich, because they also pay taxes.

and why do people have to have health insurance? you know, the money that is spent yearly on health insurance is wasted every year, because what happens when you aren't sick??? your money goes down the tubes. if you keep your money, when you need the health care, you can actually pay for it.

and what about the poor? tax credits and tax deductions.

[cut]

again, what do they measure. free vs. pay, who do you think is going to be on top?

and you haven't addressed what the french system actually revealed: it can't take care of elderly.

yeah you've been bashing the french system since the thread started I'd be quite happy to go there for healthcare instead of the states, even if it was free both ways.

but it's not just france above you, I mean UAE ffs!

[Seoulstriker]

again, what do they measure. free vs. pay, who do you think is going to be on top?

and you haven't addressed what the french system actually revealed: it can't take care of elderly.

yeah you've been bashing the french system since the thread started I'd be quite happy to go there for healthcare instead of the states, even if it was free both ways.

but it's not just france above you, I mean UAE ffs!


i'm sort of oversimplifying and i haven't stated why the american system is more expensive than it should be (and does not affect other nations) which is liability insurance.

people don't realize that when they sue their doctors and settle, they are forcing other people to pay for it because of increased insurance premiums. doctors pay between $15,000 and $150,000 on liability insurance per year!!! the result? doctors increase their fees to offset the insurance costs.

do people know that people sue their gynecologists/obstetricians for birth defects which weren't caused by the doctors? yes, it's true! that's why their premiums are above $100,000 per year. it's sad.


bottom line: socialized medicine is not the answer, and in fact, you pay more for your health care than everyone else, except they are hidden costs and you can't see them unless you analyze them.

[cut]

first, why do you say that the rich can deal with having most of their money taken away by the government? and the poor ARE paying for the rich, because they also pay taxes.

The rich always pay taxes like everyone else, if they they want to spend extra money they can and if they do then obviously they don't have an issue with it, otherwise they would stick with the nhs.

the poor are paying for the rich? how? they are paying the same amounts if not less then the rich. and last time I checked it tends to be the poor who are in need of medical care rather than the rich.



and why do people have to have health insurance? you know, the money that is spent yearly on health insurance is wasted every year, because what happens when you aren't sick??? your money goes down the tubes. if you keep your money, when you need the health care, you can actually pay for it.

and what about the poor? tax credits and tax deductions.

Insurance companies take a smallish amount of money from everyone and then dish out a larger sum of money to those who need it, when they need it. Why do businesses use it in the uk? because then they can get the injured member of their workforce back quicker without the need to wait because of waiting lists. The rest of people that have them privately tend to be richer people who would prefer private treatment because they get it sooner.

Now if richer people are buying this for themselves and poorer people who get it provided by their employer(esp. for manual work), then poor people who need public healthcare have quicker more efficient access and get a lot more for their money. And all this out of CHOICE no-one is forced to pay insurance they can't afford, subsidised or not.



if tax deductions and credits work so well why do we always hear about poor people being uninsured in the US? why is the US so far down if everyone has to pay? private services are almost always better than public ones. (although not everyone has access to them)

[cut]

i'm sort of oversimplifying and i haven't stated why the american system is more expensive than it should be (and does not affect other nations) which is liability insurance.

point taken, but it's hardly our fault american society has become Blame-mad.




people don't realize that when they sue their doctors and settle, they are forcing other people to pay for it because of increased insurance premiums. doctors pay between $15,000 and $150,000 on liability insurance per year!!! the result? doctors increase their fees to offset the insurance costs.

I totally agree with you, this makes for a worse health service though, and not only interms of value for money.



do people know that people sue their gynecologists/obstetricians for birth defects which weren't caused by the doctors? yes, it's true! that's why their premiums are above $100,000 per year. it's sad.

So, what is the government doing about this?



bottom line: socialized medicine is not the answer, and in fact, you pay more for your health care than everyone else, except they are hidden costs and you can't see them unless you analyze them.

I don't for certain how you know exactly how much of our taxes goes to the nhs, and how you know that it is more, but I will say this, if we do pay more, it's for a health care system that is considered better then yours by the world health organisation. What are the hidden costs?

[Herrmannek]

Seul I now don't undestand why you want to be doctor...Man USA looks like worst place to live.... I'm waiting when failed suiciders will sue rope producers for wounds inflicted by unsucessful suicidal attempt and doctors who rescued them for moral looses and sufferance off reconvalescence ....Jeeeez

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Considering that the US health care system failed to make it into the top 10 in the World health organisations last report.
even though more is spent in the US on health care than anywhere else I would'nt go around saying how efficent your health care system is.

What a steaming load of poo that report is. Just in case anybody had bothered to read it, they'd find that all kinds of non-healthcare related factors were included in the "rankings".

For example, life expectancy - which is largely a function of eating habits, sedentary lifestyles etc., was used to rank the "systems". Violence and murder rates, auto accident rates etc were used to rank the health systems (what f*cking sense does that make?). Why don't they also throw in stats on how many of us smoke? Oh wait...they did.

In other words, were you to transplant the US system into another place, say Austria or Japan for example - where these unrealated but included factors were lower, the "system" would have ranked better.

Typical UN funded garbage.

[cut]

I think you'll find that if that were the case, the US would be doing a lot better in th World health organisations list.

life expectancy, although, some european countries like france, germany, sweden have better life expectancies then the US, the rest of the world does worse, even the UK life expectancy is 6 months short of that of american citizens.

violence and car accidents, although we always hear about cases in the states they much more common in the rest of the world.

Smoking, the US is must be one of places in the world where the least amount of people smoke, there are restrictions everywhere.

So if indeed the list did used these the US wpuld be doing a little better don't you think?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Well, you're kind of making my point for me. It's clear that whatever odd scheme they used to generate the rankings, it was flawed.

There's no question that they did use all that BS data -smoking/eating/crime rate/accident rates etc. into the mix. It's all in the study text.

My point is that the study is not a list of the best health systems. It's a ranking of the healthiest populations, based upon the criteria they used.

If we outlawed cars, guns, knives, skydiving, harsh language, and made everybody wear hockey pads 24/7, the US could have the best "health system" in the world!

[Seoulstriker]

Cut,

the poor pay taxes as well as the rich pay taxes for the health care system. the most efficient system would be if everyone paid for what they receive. but that's not how it is now where the poor subsidize the system unnecessarily because it is likely that poor people also do not need to receive health care in huge portions every year. and what if it is an unfortunate year for the rich in terms of them getting sick every day and needing surgery every week? then the poor get nothing for which they pay while the rich get everything they paid for plus more. (exaggeration to prove a point)


tax credits/tax deductions have just been proposed by Bush this year. he also formally proposed caps on malpractice 'pain' settlements. by doing these simple measures, the US will magically move up the health care list. the list says nothing about the general quality of care, the efficiency of the system, etc.


hidden costs as in computing the average input into the health care system versus the average 'compensation' or benefits obtained from the system. in a direct payment system, where people save money for future medical problems, they have a much higher ratio of benefits/inputs than people who contribute to a health insurance plan. further, people who have private health insurance plans have a higher benefits/inputs ratio than the public health insurance plans because of medical overhead and the difference in tax rates proportional to income.

to sort it all out: if everyone saved money every year and did not contribute to a health insurance plan, you would have enough money to cover your health expenses, unless something severely goes wrong (such as having multiple surgeries fixing a torn ACL). but those cases are extremely well and an entire change in the health care system would not be a good idea to help that one person and screw everyone else.

and for people who can not save enough money per year to cover health costs, then there would be tax credits and tax deductions.

[cut]

Well, you're kind of making my point for me. It's clear that whatever odd scheme they used to generate the rankings, it was flawed.

There's no question that they did use all that BS data -smoking/eating/crime rate/accident rates etc. into the mix. It's all in the study text.

My point is that the study is not a list of the best health systems. It's a ranking of the healthiest populations, based upon the criteria they used.

If we outlawed cars, guns, knives, skydiving, harsh language, and made everybody wear hockey pads 24/7, the US could have the best "health system" in the world!

What I was saying is wether guns a legal in the US doesn't make a difference when you compare it to the death rate in somewhere like India.

that's why life seems so cheap over there, within the first 3 days of moving in to a house in a village of about 300 people max over there 3 people died! One was a young pregnant woman.

you are probably right if the US banned cars, guns, knives, skydiving, etc.. it might do better, then the same could be said for everywhere else in the world.

so what if guns are banned in the UK, smoking is banned in lots of places in the states.. that won't make a difference to this list.

[hank]

2 sheds nailed it on this one. WHO hs their way and they can keep it. I get cancer - i'm going to Rochester, MN and seeinga real doctor. Frenchy at he WHO can do whatever the hell he wants in the UAE or Costa Rica.

Seoulstriker - there is one little problem with your idea that malpratice suits drive up the cost of healthcare. The US govet and/or insurance companies establish the fees that doctors can charge irrespective of malpractice insurance. Also - get yourself some statistics about malpractice cases - 90% of all malpractice suits get filed against less than 10% of doctors - that is a fact. So, the real issue is not the suits themselves but the fact that a successful suit almost never gets that Doctor out of the loop. He simply pays, and forces insurance premiums for all doctors to go up, and then goes out and commits malpractice again.

A pre-med student blaming the lawyers - go figure. Also, if your hypothesis were correct then doctors would be the ones feeling the heat, right? Yet, doctors make a hell of a lot of money.

The problem with all this is that everybody wants to blame everybody else. Social medicine will not work in the US - deal with that fact for the time being. The vast majority of ininsured patients go to the emergency room at their local hospital for even the most routine treatments. So, the most expensive outlet for care ends up dealing with the least profitable segment of the population. Fix this one problem and many of the US healthcare problems go away.

By the way, I am a student and I pay $800/year for basic health insurance. For that I get a $15 co=pay for drugs and access to the University Hospital/Health Clinic for free. I forget what the deductible is.

Before I went back to school I worked for a company that had a helath plan with different options to choose from. I chose the least expensive PPO option and unded up being out less than $100/month for a fairly decent PPO with copay and the rest.

My wife teaches and it would have been double that at least to put me on her insurance. Her insurance is free for her b/c we have no other dependents. Next year I will work and have cafeteria plan that my employer have told me will not result in any out of pocket $ more than the deductible for prescriptions.

hank

[cut]

Cut,

the poor pay taxes as well as the rich pay taxes for the health care system. the most efficient system would be if everyone paid for what they receive. but that's not how it is now where the poor subsidize the system unnecessarily because it is likely that poor people also do not need to receive health care in huge portions every year. and what if it is an unfortunate year for the rich in terms of them getting sick every day and needing surgery every week? then the poor get nothing for which they pay while the rich get everything they paid for plus more. (exaggeration to prove a point)


tax credits/tax deductions have just been proposed by Bush this year. he also formally proposed caps on malpractice 'pain' settlements. by doing these simple measures, the US will magically move up the health care list. the list says nothing about the general quality of care, the efficiency of the system, etc.


hidden costs as in computing the average input into the health care system versus the average 'compensation' or benefits obtained from the system. in a direct payment system, where people save money for future medical problems, they have a much higher ratio of benefits/inputs than people who contribute to a health insurance plan. further, people who have private health insurance plans have a higher benefits/inputs ratio than the public health insurance plans because of medical overhead and the difference in tax rates proportional to income.

to sort it all out: if everyone saved money every year and did not contribute to a health insurance plan, you would have enough money to cover your health expenses, unless something severely goes wrong (such as having multiple surgeries fixing a torn ACL). but those cases are extremely well and an entire change in the health care system would not be a good idea to help that one person and screw everyone else.

and for people who can not save enough money per year to cover health costs, then there would be tax credits and tax deductions.

oh right I didn't realise tax deductions/credit hadn't been implemented yet, no wonder, the US health system is classed as being so ****.

as for your saving money just in case, that would never work, there will always be a section of society that will spend that money, and this section is more likely to be the poor who have less money to splash about, so that wouldn't work.

I don't understand the point you were trying to make in the first paragraph, but it seemed like you were trying to say that paying a certain amount regularly tax or insurance, is a bad idea, was that it? if it was my last answer covers it.

[cut]

2 sheds nailed it on this one. WHO hs their way and they can keep it. I get cancer - i'm going to Rochester, MN and seeinga real doctor. Frenchy at he WHO can do whatever the hell he wants in the UAE or Costa Rica.



your just advocating that this list must be wrong in some way. I don't understand why it is untrustworthy now and yet if it was the US at the top of the list it wouldn't be.

[hank]

cut - what? All I'm saying about WHO is that I don't really believe that anybody who is seriously ill and knows about US healthcare's quality would go to the UAE for treatment if they had a choice. That does not mean we are perfect but we are certainly better than UAE and Costa Rica.

One of the criteria for that list was quality of care, right? If that is so I question the validity of any report by UNOWHO that says US healthcare lags behind many of hte countries that we give healthcare assistance to - like Costa Rica.

hank

[cut]

I find it suprising as well but; assumption vs. world health organisation research, in any other case which one would you go for?


US/ UK/ France

Total population: 285,925,000 59,541,000 59,452,000

GDP per capita (Intl $): 34,637 24,462 24,702

Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 74.3/79.5 75.1/79.9 75.6/82.9

Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 66.4/68.8 68.4/70.9 69.0/73.5

Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 9/7 7/6 5/4

Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 144/83 109/69 134/60

Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $): 4,499 1,774 2,335

Total health expenditure as % of GDP: 13.0 7.3 9.5

[cut]

Seoul, just out of intrest, would you say that, healthy people should contribute anything to pay for the health used by sick people?

Do you think people should contribute towards the health care used by poor people when they become ill?

[Seoulstriker]

Seoul, just out of intrest, would you say that, healthy people should contribute anything to pay for the health used by sick people?

Do you think people should contribute towards the health care used by poor people when they become ill?

yes.

that's the point of the tax credits/tax deductions. essentially it's socializing medicine without all of the many problems of socializing medicine. ;)

[hank]

OK - now we get to the bottom of it. Look at these statistics - there is a category about "total health expenditures as % of GDP" - of course we lose - we don't have social medicine. Our doctros and nurses make A LOT of money relative to UK France. Also a lot of our hospitals operate for profit - yours don't - if expense is relevant then we will always lose because of the choices we have made.

Child mortality - look at hte relaitve percentages of poverty in these countries. Child deaths are always tied to poverty. WE have a greater percentage of our poplulation belowe the poverty level than any country in europe. That is a product of our political systme - not our medicine or ability in health care.

Life expectancy - if murder or traffic deaths are included it would be normal to expect the US to lost this - thinks about it we have 3 cars/person and relatively high crime related deaths to both UK and France
GDP /capita - anytime you deal with money there are issues of currency value - depending on how this is done it will greatly effect the outcome.

UNOWHO is not exactly pro US - still if you had cancer and you could go anywhere where would you go? I'll see you in Rochester.

I have not said that we are perfect nor better than UK or France - your systems very well may be better than ours. But the UAE and Costa Rica - who are they kidding? Get some Costa Rican statistics and then we'll talk. Or maybe the UAE. UAE and Costa Rica both are so small that the more relevant comparison would be between teh healt system in massachusetts and them.

hank

hank

[cut]

OK - now we get to the bottom of it. Look at these statistics - there is a category about "total health expenditures as % of GDP" - of course we lose - we don't have social medicine. Our doctros and nurses make A LOT of money relative to UK France. Also a lot of our hospitals operate for profit - yours don't - if expense is relevant then we will always lose because of the choices we have made.

so why is your government spending so much on it?


Child mortality - look at hte relaitve percentages of poverty in these countries. Child deaths are always tied to poverty. WE have a greater percentage of our poplulation belowe the poverty level than any country in europe. That is a product of our political systme - not our medicine or ability in health care. Including eastern europe?
-in any a huge gap between rich and poor (which it would have to be since on average you are ten grand a year richer) is something to be ashamed of.



Life expectancy - if murder or traffic deaths are included it would be normal to expect the US to lost this - thinks about it we have 3 cars/person and relatively high crime related deaths to both UK and France
GDP /capita - anytime you deal with money there are issues of currency value - depending on how this is done it will greatly effect the outcome.
do you want me to show you the figures for the UAE?



UNOWHO is not exactly pro US - still if you had cancer and you could go anywhere where would you go? I'll see you in Rochester.

nah the US rips off the regular person like me, I don't need the world's best, I'll leave that to the people in the worsed condition, we are capable of treating cancer perfectly well here, and for free. :D


I have not said that we are perfect nor better than UK or France - your systems very well may be better than ours. But the UAE and Costa Rica - who are they kidding? Get some Costa Rican statistics and then we'll talk. Or maybe the UAE. UAE and Costa Rica both are so small that the more relevant comparison would be between teh healt system in massachusetts and them.

just because these countries are poorer doesn't mean they havn't got a better organised, fairer system then the US
hank

hank[/quote]

[hank]

Yeah I'll take UAE if you have it. Ashamed of poor and rich - not really - capitalism is not fair and never will be - but its what we have so I live with it. Nobody gets ripped off in the US when it comes to health care. Tell me who gets ripped off - was that even the point of the survey? I though ti was quality. Have you ever been to a hopsital in the US? If not then what are you complaining about.

Mortality - the chart you made did not refer to Eastern Europe did it? If it did then I agree that woudl be telling. If an Eastern European coutry witha comparable level of poverty had a much lower infant mortality rate then I agree. I thought your previous post only referred to US v France v UK.

Fair - was that one of the criteria - i thought you were talking about quality. Talk about fair - how fair do you think it is that my grandfather had to pay $37,000 for a heart surgery that ultimately killed him? Woud lyou want to pay for a surgery that did not work? That's not fair but then again neither is heart disease. Thems the breaks and they suck. If your talking about fair then there can only be one winner and as soon as Auntie Em comes back form the Mercedez-Benz dealership she and I are going to go get some free health care there.

Again, US healthcare has problems to be sure. I went to the doctor last week and my wife is pregnant. I am keely aware of those problems. I might admit that UK and France are better - maybe - after I had live in either country for a while. But no way - ever - under any circumstances will anything from those idiots at UNOWHO convince me that Costa Rica and UAE have medical systems that comprehensively are better than ours. That is absurd.

Your last line there talks about poorness and relative fairness. Thinsk about this. If we suck so bad that Costa Rica's system is better than ours then wwhy do we give aid to all these countries. Is that fair? Is one dead American rich child less important than one poor Costa Rican child. Costa Rica is a card carrying member of the third world and has been for a long time.

I just thought about this while I was typing that last paragraph. You don't think maybe UNOWHO helpd old Costa Rica set up their system do you? Couldn't be. Seeing as how the UNOWHO is busy all through the thrid world helping poor people with US money. That sounds fair to me.

hank

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Insurance is a scam.

When I was a 1099 contractor I paid 100% of my own medical insurance. It was $912/mo. That's $11,000 a year. For that kind of money, I could have walked into any hospital, with no insurance, and had fake eyeballs and a robotic **** installed, and still paid less than $912 in monthly payments.

When you pay insurance premiums, you are not paying for medical treatment. The same goes for people who pay these premiums via taxation.

You are paying for the insurance company administrators, adjusters, office supplies, parking, utilities, office rent, executives, bonuses, sales conferences, rental cars, sales commissions, junkets, etc. All of that money is siphoned off before doctors see a penny.

Look at any big city in America- some of the tallest buildings are insurance companies. John ******* tower in Boston, Transamerica Bldg in San Francisco etc. Money that didn't go to healthcare.

The problem with the cost is this - the end user doesn't give a crap how much it costs. This is true whether it's private medical insurance or some government program. It's covered by the insurance, so somebody else is paying, right? The individual consumer cannot pay for their own healthcare while this system is still in place.

Once the system is structured so that people cared what it cost, doctors & hospitals would advertise their rates. They would compete based on price, just like any other industry. I could call 3 docs & get a quote for that fancy new cybernetic nipple implant I've wanted & I'd go with the middle quote (never go with the cheapest!).

[Jack Mehoff]

I'm not a rich person but i can afford health care. In fact, i had my LASIK surgery done just last year. I'd rather have a capitalistic health care than socialistic health care. Why? because the quality is much better and I can afford it. I guess you get what you pay for

[Skaman]

I'm not a rich person but i can afford health care. In fact, i had my LASIK surgery done just last year. I'd rather have a capitalistic health care than socialistic health care. Why? because the quality is much better and I can afford it. I guess you get what you pay for


Yay for individualism. Screw the poor man. Jack, for someone happy with the amount of cash he pays for health care, would you not want your nation to be held in higher regard by the WHO? Do you think this organization pulls these statistics out of thin air? Evidence disproving the claims of an infallible USA medical system has been made. The USA has a great health system, yet it is not as valued as many of the "socialized" health care systems and under no circumstance, 'better' so to speak, hence the placement at the bottom of the list.

[Jack Mehoff]

duci,

If you don't like capitalism then move to Cuba, China or Vietnam or something. I spent one year in Vietnam and i don't like it. Now it's your turn

[Skaman]

duci,

If you don't like capitalism then move to Cuba, China or Vietnam or something. I spent one year in Vietnam and i don't like it. Now it's your turn


No thanks, I will stay in Canada. woot

[cut]

Insurance is a scam.



I agree, so I won't argue that, but then I'd say that the nhs isn't there's no way it could be.




Yeah I'll take UAE if you have it. Ashamed of poor and rich - not really - capitalism is not fair and never will be - but its what we have so I live with it. Nobody gets ripped off in the US when it comes to health care. Tell me who gets ripped off - was that even the point of the survey? I though ti was quality. Have you ever been to a hopsital in the US? If not then what are you complaining about.

You may be right about the US not being expensive, but refering to the cancer treatment example, being flown over there would be. I don't deem the treatment in europe for cancer to be less then excellent and nowhere near bad enough to make me spend loads to get treatment in the states.

As for the US vs. UAE mortality (which gun crime, car accidents and so on comes down to)

the US is 144/83 (m/f) and the UAE is 171/124



Mortality - the chart you made did not refer to Eastern Europe did it? If it did then I agree that woudl be telling. If an Eastern European coutry witha comparable level of poverty had a much lower infant mortality rate then I agree. I thought your previous post only referred to US v France v UK.


What about eastern Europe? Poland, one of the most westernised is at 50 on the list.



Fair - was that one of the criteria - i thought you were talking about quality. Talk about fair - how fair do you think it is that my grandfather had to pay $37,000 for a heart surgery that ultimately killed him? Woud lyou want to pay for a surgery that did not work? That's not fair but then again neither is heart disease. Thems the breaks and they suck. If your talking about fair then there can only be one winner and as soon as Auntie Em comes back form the Mercedez-Benz dealership she and I are going to go get some free health care there.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.


Again, US healthcare has problems to be sure. I went to the doctor last week and my wife is pregnant. I am keely aware of those problems. I might admit that UK and France are better - maybe - after I had live in either country for a while. But no way - ever - under any circumstances will anything from those idiots at UNOWHO convince me that Costa Rica and UAE have medical systems that comprehensively are better than ours. That is absurd.

what incentive to they have for making this up?


Your last line there talks about poorness and relative fairness. Thinsk about this. If we suck so bad that Costa Rica's system is better than ours then wwhy do we give aid to all these countries. Is that fair? Is one dead American rich child less important than one poor Costa Rican child. Costa Rica is a card carrying member of the third world and has been for a long time.

Maybe it is because you give aid to these countries that they can provide a good health service, which is fair is it not?




I just thought about this while I was typing that last paragraph. You don't think maybe UNOWHO helpd old Costa Rica set up their system do you? Couldn't be. Seeing as how the UNOWHO is busy all through the thrid world helping poor people with US money. That sounds fair to me.

might be, might not be, they would not class it so high because of this.

[Nunavut's sewage]

I'm sorry to say but 10%+ of the GDP on health care is ****ed.

If someone doesn't want to work and just live off social programs and taxpayers dollars I say let em get sick and die.

If they are physically unable that's a different matter.

Capitalism RUleZ woot

[Jack Mehoff]

America suck this and suck that. How come people from all over the world still immigrate over here by the hundred of thousands each year? Would you buy a Porsche if you think it's suck?

[Haiw]

Maybe they're just naive? :P

[hank]

Cut - the point is that you and UNOWHO presented a moving target. You gave me figures from UK and France and then talked about East Europe. There may be some merit to the fact that Poland is above us. Does not change the fact that it is really hard to know what the standard is in this evaluation.

Us giving aid to Costa Rica and eating a turdburger from UNOWHO b/c our health system does not mathc up under a nebulous test is ludicrous. Fair was not a criteria and is impossible to define. Irony is a better fit when UNOWHO makes these claims. Define the criteria by which you expect me to believe that health care in Costa Rica is better. Same for UAE. Think about what you write. That is the craziest thing I've ever heard.

Don;t just believe everyhting that is written. Be skeptical. I've acknowledged over and over that US is not perfect and that European countries may objectivel be better - whatever that means. But Costa Rica? No thanks, I've had enough UNOWHO BS for one lifetime.

hank

[Jack Mehoff]

You can't believe how many marriage offers i got from Vietnamese girls while i was there. They wanted me to marry them and sponsor them to America. Of course my good look was also a big factor :lol:

[Haiw]

I bet they wanna tell you anything you want when you offer them bucu dollar...

[Jack Mehoff]

I bet they wanna tell you anything you want when you offer them bucu dollar...

Who say anything about paying? They would bucu me for zero do^`ng

[California Joe]

You want great health care elect Howard Dean. He's a f*cking doctor. He may be mental but I have nieces an nephews that benefitted from his policies in Vermont. Seriously. Most people vote on single issues. Gun rights....whatever. If it means something to you that poor little kids will have health care then it's an honest vote.

[cut]

Cut - the point is that you and UNOWHO presented a moving target. You gave me figures from UK and France and then talked about East Europe. There may be some merit to the fact that Poland is above us. Does not change the fact that it is really hard to know what the standard is in this evaluation.

No Poland is at 50, the highest ranking eastern (central) european country is slovenia at 38, one below the US. Here is the list (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html)


Us giving aid to Costa Rica and eating a turdburger from UNOWHO b/c our health system does not mathc up under a nebulous test is ludicrous. Fair was not a criteria and is impossible to define. Irony is a better fit when UNOWHO makes these claims. Define the criteria by which you expect me to believe that health care in Costa Rica is better. Same for UAE. Think about what you write. That is the craziest thing I've ever heard.

I havn't found anything to indicate otherwise. I just had a quick look at it seems Costa Rica have put a lot of work in their Health care system, in 1995 they had the 3rd best life expectancy in the world and it prides itself on being par with the best of the OECD countries.



Don;t just believe everyhting that is written. Be skeptical. I've acknowledged over and over that US is not perfect and that European countries may objectivel be better - whatever that means. But Costa Rica? No thanks, I've had enough UNOWHO BS for one lifetime.

hank
don't worry I am always skeptical of what I read, but when much of what you read from different places and nothing to suggest otherwise, and I know that the other countries seem to be in the right places.

well essentially I don't know that UAE is above the US in terms of health care, but then you don't know that it isn't. What I think is much less debatable is that western European health systems are better than that of the US which people and people were saying otherwise at the beginning of the thread, which is why I posted it in the first place.

[hank]

cut - i guess we just need to agree to disagree. That's cool.

hank

[cut]

ok, congrats on your first century btw.

[hank]

Thank you - its official I got 100 - can I get an amen from the congregation - oops that was that other thread.

hank

[Trigger]

AMEN!

_________________

Trigger - a one man congregation

[California Joe]

TESTIFY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*James Brown voice* Haiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!![/b]

[Trigger]

rofl rofl rofl

[Falco]

Praise the Lord !!!

[Ichhabe]

Out of interest how much do any of you guys contribute every year to health insurance schemes or policies, ball park figures would be OK, I would also be interested in how much companies contribute to staff policies.

I pay 36 % income tax... Must be a part that is being set to deal with the healt care blah blah blaaaaah,... i think.

And if you think that 36 % is high... Well. If I earn money from a second job, I have to pay 49 %... MUUU HA HA HA HA HA. I love my country and it's tax system. I really do. :lol:

[Jack Mehoff]

Americans alway whine and moan about how much tax we pay. In fact, they don't know that we pay the least compare to the rest of the world.

[cut]

UK 2003-2004

-Starting rate 10%

-Basic rate 22%
£1 961 - £30 500

-Higher rate 40%
Over £30 500

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Thanks for sharing your health contributions everyone I was just really curious to how much everybody paid for it, 2Sheds I believe you paid that amount when you were self employed my pal in NY who is a personnel trainer told me he gets quotes like that all the time so he pays for any treatment he needs direct as his liability insurance takes a big whack of cash away from him.

[Armour recon]

I never get sick or seriously hurt

Yeah, I just hate people who have little flu or fever and get few sickweeks!
Bastards. I'we been working five years now, about 225 hours a month and have no sickweeks or being at home because I was sick.

The best cure for flu: BIG glass of tea, LOT'S of honey and lot's of gin.

Maybe of topic but I just wanted to say that.

[Jack Mehoff]

Pimps don't get sick

[Armour recon]

Pimps don't get sick

BTW, nice avatar!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Pimps don't get sick
Pimps don't do IT either. :)

[Seiyuuki]

"The crucial point is that statistics do not speak for themselves. In social science, they always must be interpreted by putting yourself in the shoes of the actors whose actions led to the statistics. Regarding infant mortality, where is the comparison between mothering in the different
nations? Regarding life expectancy from birth, where is the comparison between lifestyles, culture, etc. in the differen nations?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1121938,00.html

Mr Kahn said young scientists were increasingly heading abroad, almost always to the US, to pursue their work. "For youngsters who want to carry out research at the very highest level in the world, we can now offer contracts of limited duration, worth between €1,800 (£1,244) and €2,000 a month, with no prospects, inadequate technical back-up and absolutely no job security."

Few figures on the brain drain are available. Some 60% of science graduates who study in America work there for at least a few years. An estimated 4% of France's scientific community is thought to be based permanently in the US - including Luc Montagnier, the co-discoverer of the HIV virus, and Jean-Loup Chrétien, France's first astronaut.

Claude Allègre, a respected geologist and a former education and research minister, said he was considering moving to the US.