Army Lowers Bar for Recruits

[Baltic]

Army Secretary Noel Harvey and Gen. Richard Cody, the vice chief of staff, said Monday that the Army is using looser Defense Department rules that permits it to sign up more high school dropouts and people who score lower on mental-qualification tests, but they denied that this meant it was lowering standards.

Until Army recruiters began having trouble signing up enough recruits earlier this year, the Army had set minimum standards that were higher than those of the Defense Department.

The Army has had a recruiting shortfall of 6,000 to 8,000 soldiers during the past 12 months. It hasn't fallen so short of its annual goal since 1979, several years after the Vietnam War.

Harvey and Cody addressed the recruiting issue in news conferences during the annual convention of the Association of the U.S. Army.

The Department of Defense "standards on qualification tests call for at least 60 percent Category 1 to 3 [the higher end of testing] and 4 percent Category 4," the lowest end, Harvey said. "The other services follow that standard and the Army National Guard always followed it as well. But the active Army chose a standard of 67 percent in Categories 1-3, and 2 percent Category 4." It now will use the Defense Department guidelines.

Cody said that increasing the number of people with General Education Diplomas allowed to enlist in the Army wasn't really a lowering of standards. GEDs are certificates granted in lieu of high school diplomas to dropouts who can pass an examination.

The Army's figures show 6.5 percent of all enlisted soldiers held GED certificates at the end of 2004, the last year statistics were available. The Army plans to keep its limit on new soldiers with GEDs at 10 percent in any year.

He said the number of soldiers on recruiting duty is increasing from 9,000 to 12,000, and the Army is asking Congress to increase enlistment bonuses from a maximum of $20,000 to a new limit of $40,000 for some who choose branches where there are shortages. The advertising budget for the Army was being boosted by $130 million.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,78111,00.html

[CFD Ambos]

the Army is using looser Defense Department rules that permits it to sign up more high school dropouts and people who score lower on mental-qualification tests, but they denied that this meant it was lowering standards.

WTF ? :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

Are they going to make the ASVAB test even easier ? rofl rofl rofl

The next step will be asking recruits to solve 2 + 2 = ? :lol:

[usm2b]

Atleast these kids are voluntering... it gets people who otherwise wouldn't get a good job, or be productive in society, a chance to make something of themselves.

On the flipside, they are worse than the average recruit, and if they are mentally unstable, we don't need them getting military training.

[SuperShot5000]

Atleast these kids are voluntering... it gets people who otherwise wouldn't get a good job, or be productive in society, a chance to make something of themselves.

On the flipside, they are worse than the average recruit, and if they are mentally unstable, we don't need them getting military training.

Basically. When I used to live in the ****ty housing projects (P.T. Barnum Public Housing) down in Bridgeport, the kids who didn't want a life of crime all went to the military, seeing it as the only way out of jail. I only knew of one guy who became sucessful coming from there, he got a nice scholarship to Boston College and is living it up in Greenwich.

About mental instability, we don't want to hear, "I am in a world of ****!" coming out of the john again... :|

[Ruledbyjames]

Its a good idea imho. As long as they are of good character and mentally cool I say good luck to them. Lots of fresh recruits. The army has always played a huge roll in the poor communities. Wealth dosent make you a good soldier, infact you probably wont be one if you have money.

[MCWARPIG]

Let me get in here before this thread gets too far in the weeds. I recruit both GED applicants and HS grads. There is basically no difference mentally. One thing that I see with GED applicants is that they tend to have more social issues. Dropped out to have kids, started having problems with the law, drinking, etc. Basically people who made the same mistakes as the rest of us.. but either got caught, got someone knocked up, or didn't have the family support that we did.
This is generally speaking of course. I have GED applicants that score AFQTs in the 90s while my HS kids are scoring single digits on the ASVAB.

So the ARMY changing the rules is not lowering the standard. There has always been a caveate to allow people with alternate or unfinished education into the military. It typically took a lot of red tape and waiver requests to make it happen but it still happened. Now it is just making less paperwork to let the same people swear in.

[IDFM203]

I got into this discussion somewhat when I first joined this site though it lead nowhere then so I figured with this thread I would perhaps get into it as its something that I was curios about.

Is there any reported percentages on the number of recruits that join for reasons other then patriotic nationalistic reasons (like for collage, a career, money, nothing else to do in life etc..etc..) over ones that do join strictly for nationalistic reasons.

I say this for in terms of motivation, it would seem to me that in a all volunteer force and in one where a nation is not under any immediate existential threat, a recruit that joins for purely nationalistic reasons, lends a lot more in terms of real motivation in his performance during one’s service then one that joined for other non-nationalistic reasons.

Just my perception (not based on any documents or academic research) though it seems to me that the U.S. military is fielded with a higher percentage of soldiers who volunteer for reasons other then patriotic nationalistic reasons then ones that join for those reasons alone.

If that’s the case, I guess its no wonder the military has a hard time filling its ranks.

Of course I could be wrong and as such I await any comments….


Shalom :)

[pathfinder82]

Finally, if your gonna say a GED is the equivalent of a diploma than it should be just that. This is good to see.

[pathfinder82]

Let me get in here before this thread gets too far in the weeds. I recruit both GED applicants and HS grads. There is basically no difference mentally. One thing that I see with GED applicants is that they tend to have more social issues. Dropped out to have kids, started having problems with the law, drinking, etc. Basically people who made the same mistakes as the rest of us.. but either got caught, got someone knocked up, or didn't have the family support that we did.
This is generally speaking of course. I have GED applicants that score AFQTs in the 90s while my HS kids are scoring single digits on the ASVAB.

So the ARMY changing the rules is not lowering the standard. There has always been a caveate to allow people with alternate or unfinished education into the military. It typically took a lot of red tape and waiver requests to make it happen but it still happened. Now it is just making less paperwork to let the same people swear in.

Great post warpig, spectacular. woot

Dare I say the GED guys I met were more mature having dealt with issues in their past. They just seemed more humble and knowledgeable about the world around them. IMHO

[MCWARPIG]

I got into this discussion somewhat when I first joined this site though it lead nowhere then so I figured with this thread I would perhaps get into it as its something that I was curios about.

Is there any reported percentages on the number of recruits that join for reasons other then patriotic nationalistic reasons (like for collage, a career, money, nothing else to do in life etc..etc..) over ones that do join strictly for nationalistic reasons.

I say this for in terms of motivation, it would seem to me that in a all volunteer force and in one where a nation is not under any immediate existential threat, a recruit that joins for purely nationalistic reasons, lends a lot more in terms of real motivation in his performance during one’s service then one that joined for other non-nationalistic reasons.

Just my perception (not based on any documents or academic research) though it seems to me that the U.S. military is fielded with a higher percentage of soldiers who volunteer for reasons other then patriotic nationalistic reasons then ones that join for those reasons alone.

If that’s the case, I guess its no wonder the military has a hard time filling its ranks.

Of course I could be wrong and as such I await any comments….


Shalom :)

I doubt that there are any accurate numbers to give you your data. My experience has shown me that the reasons for joining and the reasons for staying speak volumes for our military. I didn't join the military for some patriotic or nationalistic reason. I serve today because I love serving my country. I love soldiers and can think of nothing I would rather do than to stand with all of my fellow servicemen.
This is the same attitude that many of my peers have. When the enlistment bonus is gone, and college money has dried up.. what keeps a Soldier serving? Probably not some romantic ,nationalistic, patriotic ideal about their country.. but the satisfaction of doing something for their country that so many are not able or even willing to do. They serve because the guy next to them serves.
The point is that it doesn't matter why you join.. but rather why you continue to serve.

[Michael RVR]

Bloody hell, a $40,000 bonus for joining the Army.

Just goes to show what it would take for people to go in these days.

[Ratamacue]

Bloody hell, a $40,000 bonus for joining the Army.

Just goes to show what it would take for people to go in these days.
For what it's worth, my recruiter refuses to give out sign-on bonuses, and he's one of the top recruiters in the Marine Corps.

[CFD Ambos]

@ Warpig & Pathfinder82 : I experienced the same thing in my country : generally studs understand abstract things easily, but when it comes to practice they usually struggle more than the others. And often complain and discuss orders.
My best guys were always those with a "CFC" (equivalent of GED), but rather those who did a technical job (e.g. in electrics, electronics,...). They had the brain AND the hands....

By the way,

people who score lower on mental-qualification tests


the ARMY changing the rules is not lowering the standard

sorry, this is just contradiction to me.

[pathfinder82]

Yeah Ratamacue, no need to throw money at folks if their recruiting numbers are steady or even rising.


Warpig, once again I couldn't agree more. Yeah I miss the military life from time to time, but its the people who I served with who I miss the most. They were the reason it was hard to leave, especially knowing that Iraq was pretty much a done deal and going to happen.

CFD Ambos, nice to see you posting. :)

[IDFM203]

Thanks for your response; I do appreciate it, as you are one in the field so to speak on this issue.

My experience has shown me that the reasons for joining and the reasons for staying speak volumes for our military. I think that your statement should be divided into two parts, the first being why people join and the second being why some stay on as the latter is not something I am addressing at all but rather more to the former on why people join the military.

Indeed the U.S. military is an exemplemantory (SP?) force and yes once someone is in, regardless of their initial reasons for joining, are I believe transformed and as such many perhaps do extend their service for the noble and patriotic reasons or even for the soldierly reason for their brother in arms, however, I am sure there are a lot that joined for non-nationalistic reasons that simply do their service and then leave when their time is up.

Now all I am saying is that service is very commendable no matter the initial reason for joining, however, I do see a big difference in a soldiers true motivation and will to serve and how it really effects ones performance if a soldiers joins for nationalistic reasons over one that joined simply as a way to earn more money, attain a collage degree etc..etc…

The point is that it doesn't matter why you join.. but rather why you continue to serve.When you say continue to serve, you mean extend ones service beyond the required time that one initially signed for or you simply mean the day after one joins, why one continues to serve from that point on?

To me indeed there is a difference if after ones initial commitment, one signs on further, as its not for the benefits for he already attained them, so yes it is for the soldier reason for his buddy next to him or for the simple fact that he is proud to serve and feels that he can offer more. Now that is a lot different then when one first signs up for non-nationalist reasons and simply goes on in his service as he is bound to it or else he does not receive those monetary benefits that he signed up before.

Do you see what I am getting at and why I do see a difference in two types of soldiers based on the reasons they join? Also, I do see the fact that there is not a real sense amongst a large part of American society to join for purely nationalistic reasons as a big factor as to why the military has some trouble filling some of its ranks.

Let me end off by asking a tough question, if the military did away completely with all benefits, such collage tuition, signing bonuses, money or any other non-nationalistic or in essence non-military benefits, how big of a recruiting problem would the military face?


Shalom :)

[m.griphen]

Why not create an armed service green card program for Europeans that want to move to the states and are willing to serve their new country :D I would jump on an opportunity like that!

[KEEPER0311]

Atleast these kids are voluntering... it gets people who otherwise wouldn't get a good job, or be productive in society, a chance to make something of themselves.

On the flipside, they are worse than the average recruit, and if they are mentally unstable, we don't need them getting military training.

Basically. When I used to live in the ****ty housing projects (P.T. Barnum Public Housing) down in Bridgeport, the kids who didn't want a life of crime all went to the military, seeing it as the only way out of jail. I only knew of one guy who became sucessful coming from there, he got a nice scholarship to Boston College and is living it up in Greenwich.

About mental instability, we don't want to hear, "I am in a world of ****!" coming out of the john again... :|

This time we'll be hear "556mm full metal jacket..."
this is gonna hurt the already iffy moral that the army has. Along with less quilified recruits, they'll probally get a higher washout rate, seeing how the Army has made Boot camp more demanding. :-*$ sounds like they stabbing themselves in the back.

[MCWARPIG]

Thanks for your response; I do appreciate it, as you are one in the field so to speak on this issue.

My experience has shown me that the reasons for joining and the reasons for staying speak volumes for our military. I think that your statement should be divided into two parts, the first being why people join and the second being why some stay on as the latter is not something I am addressing at all but rather more to the former on why people join the military.

Indeed the U.S. military is an exemplemantory (SP?) force and yes once someone is in, regardless of their initial reasons for joining, are I believe transformed and as such many perhaps do extend their service for the noble and patriotic reasons or even for the soldierly reason for their brother in arms, however, I am sure there are a lot that joined for non-nationalistic reasons that simply do their service and then leave when their time is up.

Now all I am saying is that service is very commendable no matter the initial reason for joining, however, I do see a big difference in a soldiers true motivation and will to serve and how it really effects ones performance if a soldiers joins for nationalistic reasons over one that joined simply as a way to earn more money, attain a collage degree etc..etc…

The point is that it doesn't matter why you join.. but rather why you continue to serve.When you say continue to serve, you mean extend ones service beyond the required time that one initially signed for or you simply mean the day after one joins, why one continues to serve from that point on?

To me indeed there is a difference if after ones initial commitment, one signs on further, as its not for the benefits for he already attained them, so yes it is for the soldier reason for his buddy next to him or for the simple fact that he is proud to serve and feels that he can offer more. Now that is a lot different then when one first signs up for non-nationalist reasons and simply goes on in his service as he is bound to it or else he does not receive those monetary benefits that he signed up before.

Do you see what I am getting at and why I do see a difference in two types of soldiers based on the reasons they join? Also, I do see the fact that there is not a real sense amongst a large part of American society to join for purely nationalistic reasons as a big factor as to why the military has some trouble filling some of its ranks.

Let me end off by asking a tough question, if the military did away completely with all benefits, such collage tuition, signing bonuses, money or any other non-nationalistic or in essence non-military benefits, how big of a recruiting problem would the military face?


Shalom :)

OK.. I get that joining and staying in seem like seperate issues. They really are not. If esprit de corps, loyalty, duty, honor, service, etc.. mean nothing to you at 17 years old... they won't likely mean much 3 years later. The truth is, at 17 or 18 years old.. people are more attracted to the tangible things that the military will give them.... well that is a little inaccurate. They are able to communicate and relate to those tangibles. For instance the money, the uniform, the action... this is the "hook" that recruiting has been using for years. Now the marketing is focusing on those intangibles, like "strength for now" service, honor, country. There are those nationalistic reasons you are speaking of.
Typical US high school kids don't run around wearing red, white, and blue, talking about how much they love their country. They barely understand the concept of patriotism usually. But, that doesn't mean that it isn't a factor for them. My conversation with applicants almost always goes into how "service" is the real motivator for them wanting to join. Yeah.. money and benefits are the flash that caught their eye.. but their own values and sense of service is what gets them to join.

Think about it. As much bad press and negative coverage the military is getting due to the war.. is a $10,000 signing bonus really a big draw? If it was ten times that, would people who didn't have some kind of passion for those intangibles swear in for just the money?

I doubt it.

[IDFM203]

Sorry for the late reply………..I won’t drag this conversation out much more and I most certainly appreciate your insight, to me however, again, my perception is that a large part of the recruits that join the U.S. military do not do it for any mere bonus (though of course that even helps to attract a few more soldiers from people that perhaps would not join otherwise) but more for the over all monetary benefits of free collage, x amount of dollars per year (which is how much to be exact?) or a trade that one can acquire in the military and not for any nationalistic reasons as a PRIMARY motivator (not denying that even those that join for collage for example, don’t also have a nationalist reason though its not their primary etc..etc..) and well while I fully and honestly respect your personal interactions with recruits that you meet, without any real national data at hand (at least not that’s of public knowledge or not any that has been presented her), its pretty hard to sway my perception of what I think a large part of the recruit pool joined up for.

Though of course I can be wrong and I guess that is why I joined this thread on what is a discussion board afterall.

Shalom :)

[tuercas]

$40,000 to join? how does that work, do they factor in monthly pay accrued and GI bill, or is it separate from that. thats a lot of money, i would figured you would have to be west point material for that type of cash, any details?