US troops into pakistan?

[usa320]

They have been reporting lately that the US is planning an offensive into pakistan, but the pakistanis dont want it to happen...

Am i the only one here who thinks that with or without their permission we are going in, and we arent comming back until we have bin laden?

[cut]

the west of Pakistan isn't really controlled by the government but by local drug lords. But it's understandable that the government doesn't want an infrigement of it's sovereignty. I reckon they might give in with enough pressure though, but no time soon.

[Argyll]

The numbers involved would also have to be quite considerable,where would they come from?
Why on earth can the US not finish a conflict without statring another one?
This would be an extremely foolish move by the US if it were to do this without the Pakistan Premiers authority!

Lets get Iraq stabilised and Afghanistan stabilised before starting yet another regional war!!!

[Sergei]

Usually the guy who screams for war the most is not the one whose arse is dodging bullets in the frontline. Is it a coincidence?

[cold0]

No american troops in Pakistan, because our "allies" in the war against terrorism in realty are supporting Al Kaeda and talibans :fork:

taken from Cbs. com today:

Pakistan Slams Door On U.S. Troops
ISLAMABAD, Paksitan, Jan. 29, 2004


Pakistan will not allow U.S. troops to use its soil for a planned "spring offensive" against Taliban or al Qaeda fugitives, officials said Thursday.

Brig. Javed Iqbal Cheema, who as chief of the National Crisis Management Cell coordinates with U.S. officials in the war against terrorism, said Pakistan's policy did not allow U.S. troops to operate inside the country.

"As a matter of fact they (the United States) have not contacted us for this purpose," he told The Associated Press.

U.S. officials in Washington said Wednesday the U.S. Defense Department was planning a new offensive amid concern that current operations in Afghanistan aren't having the effect they want on terrorist networks. One official hinted that troops might extend operations to the Pakistani side of the Afghan border.

Osama bin Laden and top lieutenants are believed to be in hiding in the rugged border regions — possibly inside Pakistan. The U.S.-backed Afghan government have complained that resurgent Taliban rebels are operating from Pakistani territory and launching cross-border assaults.

A Pakistani intelligence official said Thursday authorities have no specific information on bin Laden's whereabouts.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, he said: "Whenever we get any information about the presence of al Qaeda suspects in our areas, we send a Quick Response Force there, and we have done it on many occasions."

President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, a key U.S. ally, would face withering criticism from political opponents, particularly Islamic hard-liners who control two key border provinces, if U.S. forces were deployed inside Pakistan.

Musharraf told CBS News Correspondent Tom Fenton last week that he didn't know for sure where bin Laden was, but speculated that the al Qaeda leader was probably in the frontier territories along the Pakistani and Afghan border.

But, he said there was "no possibility" of a large contingent of American troops entering Pakistan to search for bin Laden, adding that it was "a very sensitive subject."

Even the presence of Pakistani troops in those semi-autonomous regions is politically sensitive, and sympathies for the Taliban run high among the deeply conservative tribal people who live there.

U.S. forces used Pakistani bases and airspace during the campaign that led to the late 2001 ouster of the hard-line Taliban from power in Afghanistan, but Pakistan insisted it only provided logistics support.

Since 2002, Pakistan's army has staged a number of operations targeting al Qaeda fugitives. Residents have reported seeing a small number of foreign personnel on such operations, but the Pakistani government has denied it.

"We will not allow any foreign troops to conduct any operations in Pakistan," Pakistani army spokesman Gen. Shaukat Sultan said Thursday. "Whenever they (the United States) ask for such things, we always decline."

In Afghanistan, U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty declined to comment on the reported plans, saying the military doesn't comment on future operations.

A U.S. defense official in Washington told AP that orders have been issued to prepare equipment and supplies, though the operation will not necessarily require additional troops in the region, where about 11,000 Americans are deployed.

Pakistan says it has arrested more than 500 al Qaeda men over the past two years and many of them have been handed over to the United States.

In January, Pakistani forces launched a raid on a village near the border where al Qaeda fighters were believed to be hiding. The interior minister said 18 suspected terrorists were captured, but didn't identify them.

In October, a Pakistani operation at the border killed eight terror suspects, including Ahmed Said Khadr, an Egyptian-born Canadian and al Qaeda financier — whose identity was confirmed this week by Pakistan after DNA tests on his body.

[Luxembourger]

THe US moving into that tribal region is a really bad idea ..there will be a high tolll of US casuatlties. damn.....if they go in they should go with a large force of pakistani army

[oldsoak]

With Argyll here. NOT a good idea. The US would need considerable resources for this and they are already stretching themselves - Afghanistan and Iraq are not small or easy places to look after. A lot of Pakistanis are already resentful of the US would motivate a lot more active resistance to what the US is trying to achieve. Order only follows in the footsteps of a soldierin those parts, and to maintain order the soldier has to stay. The despots and drug lords need to be cut of from their sources of income - ( maybe something nasty that knocks off opium poppies could be engineered and seeded by various nefarious means. ;) ) - and the area has to have some kind of economic development to make the locals less dependant on handouts from the bad guys. Be a lot cheaper in cash, and above all, lives.

[Parzival]

Aren't PAkistan an allied friend to the U.S?

[cold0]

I doubt.... see the trend about US special forces in A'stan and what the ISI are really doing.....

[garyfanclub]

Maybe the mighty Pakistani army should do something about it, but god forbid they do anything but march around on the border and let Al Queda operatives "slip" into their country. I love how we're offering to help them and they just want to sit on their asses.

"Sir, your house is on fire, I have a hose and plenty of water, can I put it out for you?"
"NO! WHAT?! This is my house! I can let it burn if I want to!"

[usa320]

I think what they ned to do is create an extensive HUMINT and SIGINT network in pakistan, narrow down Bin LAdens position, and once we are sure, just go grab the bastard. SUre, the pakistanis wont like it, but it would be worth it obviously. That and by time they found out he would already be locked away in gitmo. I have extreme faith in our SOF, and i havent a doubt that they would be able to infiltrate, grab a enemy VIP, and get out without anyone knowing.

[Nizark]

I think what they ned to do is create an extensive HUMINT and SIGINT network in pakistan, narrow down Bin LAdens position, and once we are sure, just go grab the bastard. SUre, the pakistanis wont like it, but it would be worth it obviously. That and by time they found out he would already be locked away in gitmo. I have extreme faith in our SOF, and i havent a doubt that they would be able to infiltrate, grab a enemy VIP, and get out without anyone knowing.


HUMINT, yes, but the tribal areas and group are amoung the hardest target's in the world to pentrate. 2 state dept/CIA guys were killed on the border in november I believe trying to complete an OP there. SIGINT won't do jack because bin ladin doesn't use his sat phone anymore and uses couriers to get his messages out.

Also, the tribes in that area are mainly pashtun/wahhabists with loyalities only to other pashtuns. Money/buying them off won't do any good either.

[cut]

Let's just set something straight, I was under the impression that this would be missons in afghanistan, and not anything resembling an invasion like some of the post above isinuate. This 'could' technically be possible with pakistani cooperation, although the pakistani government doesn't really have a lot of control over that area, if they were to let americans go into the tribal areas to hunt 'terrorists' then they a liable to loose any respect they had in that area.

[usa320]

what cut said us true indeed.

There is no "invasion" planned for pakistan or ousting of the government. What is being discussed now by the DOD (according to CNN) is covert operations inside the tribal regions of pakistan. Meaning Delta teams or Green Berets going in without anyone knowing, being deadly efficient and quiet, and not crossing back into afghanistan until they are draggin osama with em.

[garyfanclub]

Since when did CNN know what they were talking about?

[cut]

a long time before you knew what you are talking about. ;)

[pretorian669]

International terrorism knows no international borders. So shal war on terrorism. We Israelis have learned this a long time ago. You have to fight fire with fire. There are alternitives to invading or occuping other countries.Good Intelligence and low profile covert ops could do the work.

[sethen]

The tribal areas of western Pakistan are controlled by Pashtuns. The pakistani goverment has NO control of the area. The only place that is safe foe the Pak Feds is the roads. When the British "controlled" the area this was the deal they worked out. It carried over to the Pak Government when they won independance.

The Pashtuns have a unique tribal code*Pashtun-Walli* that resembles Old Testament fundalmentalist Judaism, than traditional Islam. For example, in the OT you didn't have to have proof that adultery occured to have capital punishment applied, only the mere allegation! Where as in Islam evidence must be submitted to a court. Even though they if convicted they bury the convicted up to the neck and stone them to death!!!!!! :( I watched a video called "Search for the lost Tribes of Israel" conducted by an Israeli anthropologist that mentioned that the the tribes migrated along the Silk Road and one of them Eventually became the Pastuns!!!! The most starling evidence was a gigantic marker written in Aramaic, the everyday language of the Israelites. :cantbeli:

As for an offensive by the U.S. , that is complete stupidity! :bash:
Not only would it be a nightmare from the casulaties, but it would COMPLETELY destabilize Pakistan. Musharraf just missed being assasinated recently. The Pashtuns, the fundalmentalists, the military etc. etc. put Musharaff into power and inshallah (god willing) they would take him out in a heartbeat!!!! :-*$ Lets not forget the Paks have nuclear weapons!!!!!!!!!!!

[sethen]

Oh, by the way...I don't think Bin Laden will be caught, the "Sunni Fox!!!" :|

[usa320]

You guys need to read earlier posts; the "offensive" being discussed wouldnt be a broad conventional campaign against pakistan itself. Instead it would go more like this-

1. CIA agents infiltrate the tribal regions.
2. agents set up intelligence network.
3. Agents track movement of guns, money, drugs, people
4. Agents locate low priority person.
5. Low priority guy is arrested and quietly whisked back to Bagram or Kandahar to a US base, or even to a CIA safehouse in Pakistan.
6. Low priotity guy sings like a bird under threat of getting sent to gitmo or handing him over to the Pakistani government, who isnt as friendly with criminals as we are.
7. Low priority stooge points intel to high priority Al Queda guy.
8. Covert team stages a quiet, quick night time raid, captures the upper tier person.
9. Guy is arrested, and sent to gitmo.

In other words- its not going to be an "offensive" in historical context, as in Shock And Awe or D-Day. Its merely going to be a covert offensive action, that no one will ever find out about with the exception of the men carrying it out, and the men they capture or kill.

These operations could have already occured...id be concerned if they didnt. There is too great of a chance of finding bin laden to NOT send SOF secretly into the tribal regions of pakistan.

[EvanL]

You guys need to read earlier posts; the "offensive" being discussed wouldnt be a broad conventional campaign against pakistan itself. Instead it would go more like this-

1. CIA agents infiltrate the tribal regions.
2. agents set up intelligence network.
3. Agents track movement of guns, money, drugs, people
4. Agents locate low priority person.
5. Low priority guy is arrested and quietly whisked back to Bagram or Kandahar to a US base, or even to a CIA safehouse in Pakistan.
6. Low priotity guy sings like a bird under threat of getting sent to gitmo or handing him over to the Pakistani government, who isnt as friendly with criminals as we are.
7. Low priority stooge points intel to high priority Al Queda guy.
8. Covert team stages a quiet, quick night time raid, captures the upper tier person.
9. Guy is arrested, and sent to gitmo.

In other words- its not going to be an "offensive" in historical context, as in Shock And Awe or D-Day. Its merely going to be a covert offensive action, that no one will ever find out about with the exception of the men carrying it out, and the men they capture or kill.

These operations could have already occured...id be concerned if they didnt. There is too great of a chance of finding bin laden to NOT send SOF secretly into the tribal regions of pakistan.
Is your name Ian Flemming?

[obd]

Hey Argyll, I'm not trying to be offensive or put you down or start a flame war this time but isnt it kind of impossible to stabalize Afghanistan while the Pakistani government has refused for the last two years, even under intense pressure, to actually do something meaningful to deal with Al Queda and Taliban forces along the border?? Also not only are the Pak bastards helping them but they are just letting them encamp on thier land to attack us from. Am I missing something here or is that akin to an act of war. Back in the old days, giving aid to another nations enemy and willingly letting enemy forces take cover on your lands while they prepare to strike that nations soldiers would make you an enemy as well and liable to be attacked!!!!!

I mean, they are still claiming they need all thier forces on the Kashmiri border in case if an Indian invasion which we all know is a complete load of bull****. Also, the Pakistani's are secretly giving support to Al Queada and the Taliban anyway according to numerous field reports leaked out by special forces A-teams in the area. Also, many special forces members returning to the United States from tour in A-stan have mentioned Pakistani indifference and even aid to Taliban!!!!

If you examine history, on of the only reasons the Soviets couldnt crush the Muj was because they always had Pakistan to run to an re-arm, re0equip, and re-organize. On the odd occasion when the Soviets did launch assualts into Pakistan they had devestating effect on the Muj and in some cases kept them in a state of confusion and recovery for months!!!! So when you say things like "cant the US end one war without starting another one" it kind of amazes me. I dont see how you expect the US special forces, and all the other nations involved including the SAS, to do a damn thing about Al queda/Taliban without launching an offensive into Pakistan to try to get Osama bin LAdin and to take down the numerous madrasas that keep pumping out hundreds of fighters per day to fight US troops and grow opium!!!

Is there not someone out here that agrees with me?? Can not someone see the lessons from the Soviet campaign or the similarity to Vietnam-cambodia-laos???? Jeezuz am I just stupid. Maybe Im just stupid but I cant see how we can win when they have Pakistan helping them without sending in thousands more and cutting off one of the worst and most hard to cut off border areas in the world!!!!!!! Im not kidding here, maybe Im missing some new tactic or strategy but I find it hard to believe things could get any worse by invading Pakistan. I mean hell, if they send thier own damn troops to fight us then that just makes it a whole lot easier because then we can expose them for the enemy they really are and finish those mother****in Paki's ounce and for all. Maybe even bring the Indians in a let them do it. They will mop up the Paks real real quick. Oh yeah, and Im pretty sure we could take down the Paki nuke threat in..ohhhh....2 minutes with pinpoint strikes at all thier mobile and immoblie launch sites... Im sure a combo of Inidan and US and allied intel has kept track of them all. Either way I doubt the Paks would dare launch nukes anyway.......

[obd]

Im with my Indian friends when I say I hate Pakistan. The more I find out about Pakistan the more it mirrors Saudi Arabia for its backwardness, its radicalism, its mistreatment of women, etc. There are certainly Muslum nations I admire however. (Morrocco being one) but Pakistan in a ****hole of drug dealers, warlords, terrorists, oppressors of women, religious radicals, illegal arms dealers, etcc......Whoah, waite just a minute: So is the United States LMAO!!! Just kidding, although we do have our social problems which of course is a given when you have 300 million people of such vastly different backgrounds all mixed up (well mostly mixed up and in some cases seperated into little enclaves but anyway....) I have advocated a combined offensive war with India/United States crushing Pakistan for a long time anyway so I cant waite for this suppossed "offensive" to happen and I hope the war escalates to a direct and final confrontation with Pakistan. I'd much rather see those lands in the hands of Hindu Indians than Muslum Pakistani's anyway......

[Rebel 7]

Hello,

Pakistan created the Taliban. Pakistan fed some of the $3 billion dollars worth of US arms aid to anti-West extremists such as Gulbudeen and kept the rest for themselves (I know this as I was in Pakistan and saw crates of ammo labeled for the resistance being sold in Pakistani weapons shops in Peshawar). Pakistan has been pretending to be an ally of the US but is in reality a thief disguised as a police officer. There is a saying that Afghans and Indians have about the Pakistanis, "They will steal your wallet when your back is turned and when you tell them that your wallet was stolen, they pretend to help you find it." The CIA and Pentagon have got to stop being so gullible and start taking Pakistani reports with huge amounts of skepticism. When the US offensive against the Taliban began after Sept. 11, Afghans were happy that the Taliban were going to be ousted, but it was the PAKISTANIS protesting on their filthy streets about the US offensive. I mean, Afghans were happy and these Pakistanis weren't. That there shows that these guys were the Taliban, they ran the Taliban, and they basically used the Taliban to control Afghanistan. The Taliban was Pakistan's puppets in Afghanistan much like the Kashmiri terrorists are their puppets in India. If you go to Pakistan, almost EVERYONE there is anti-american. An American journalist went to Pakistan a few months after Sept. 11 and interviewed the men and women there and her documentary was shown on 20/20. The documentary showed Pakistani women praising bin Laden and saying that they would love to have him as their husband (I guess terrrorists turn them on) and the men were stated as saying the bin Laden is a hero. Its about time the US listened to what officials in the Afghan government have been secretly telling the US for the past 8 years (since the Taliban took Kabul in 1996). Yes, you heard me correct. Commander Massoud of the United Front resistance was passing information and warning the US long before Sept. 11 that the US must act quick against the Taliban and support them in their fight against the Taliban or else the world including the US would suffer great consequences from the Taliban. I can post his exact quote to the US government about 5 months before Sept. 11 warning the US about extreme consequences if they didn't act fast againt the Taliban and began supporting anti-Taliban resistance movements in Afghanistan. The US has the full support of Afghans in any operation they conduct in Pakistan since Afghans hate Pakistanis for the hell they brought in Afghanistan (ie. Taliban, Al Qaida, etc.)

Later,
Rebel 7

[obd]

Thank you rebel!!! Its nice to have someone agree with me. I get attacked every time I say anything like what you said about Pakistan by people either playing devils advocate or just trying to be politically correct or liberal bastards. I have said what you just said over and over and over but it appears alot of Europeans, who had very little to do with the Afghan soviet war outside of Great Britain, just dont want to accept it!!!

The simple fact is that the Taliban were created by Pakistan, were and still are nurtured by Pakistan, etc etc. According to the late "Lion of the Panshir" Ahmed Shah Massoud (who is one of the greatest people and greatest hero;s of our time in my opinion) said many Pakistani ISI, special forces, and regular troops were encountered by his men in northern Afghanistan fighting alongside Taliban units. In fact, the ISI had a substantial advisor program teaching Taliban recruits how to use heavy weapons, adjust mortar/artiller fire, sniper schools, bomb making schools, and assasination schools, etc etc etc.

And if you read up on what the Pakistani historians/ intellectuals say, Musharref only halted OVERT but NOT covert support for the Taliban because he had no other choice and also because he hoped it would be a trump card in lowering Washingtons objections to Pakistans terrorist war against India and thier "war of liberation", as they put it, in Kashmir. Funny but the vast majority of Kashmiris favor independence from both India and Pakistan and I dont really blame them.

Also I think we Pakistans A-bomb capability is a HUGE HUGE HUGE threat to the United States. In fact, jsut recently the highest ranking nuclear scientist in Pakistan was fired for a vast array of evidence suggesting he sold secrets to AlQueda as well as other "undesirable" nations. I think with the Paks and thier A-bomb, its only a short matter of time before AQ gets thier hands on dirty bomb material curtosey of Pakistan.

[California Joe]

He gets credibility for being there.

[usa320]

i think Musharraf tries, but in the long run if he does everything we ask of him, hell end up getting offed by the radicals.

Thus i think we need to take silent and accurate action of our own.

[sethen]

Hey read, "The Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid. :)

[Argyll]

obd ,for once you are correct,regarding the stabalising of A'stan.
Which shows again that the US "thinking machine" screwed up big time in their assertations and assumptions of the removing of a regime!
Now I'm not sure if you've been readin some of my other threadsmbut I'm no lover of Pakistan for this very matter,what they are doing is only a token gesture to appease the US administration,it was this gesture which helped in the case to go to war,the Pakistani's have a vested interest in A'stan,and they will always have.It is their South America if you catch my drift?

Secondly Pakistan is not the friend everyone thinks it is,they also broke UN resoloutions and harbour Terrorists(AQ) and supported Regimes(Taliban),but they are a tougher nut to crack than the 3rd world Armies of Iraq and A'stan...hence the decision NOT to treat them in the same light as the other axis of evils!

Again the War on Terror was a knee jerk reaction from 9/11,otherwise it was a very cynical excuse to start a war,lets look at this closer,it was a matter of "months " post 9/11 that this war started.....the US put a plan into place that was only months old?,they only had a few months to research the Taliban's capabilities?,they had a few months to get an Interim Government set up?they had only 2 months worth of Intelligence as to Troop placements and movements?........yet there was a plan to attack Iraq in place at the same time......coincidence or carefull planning?
I'm willing to bet that this was planned a lot longer than 2 months post 9/11 and that there was a plan in place for years!

What is also clear that the plan was succesful in ousting the Taliban only,as AQ still exist,The leaders are still alive and are still a bigger damnger now than they were then,Terrorism is still rife in both A'stan and Iraq,and globaly,back to A'stan,the borders are still unprotected,the Taliban and AQ have been regrouping,and have been active,all with the aid of the ISI.......Mushareff is a mere political puppet,and who embraces the West just for Economic aid!! If he was to go,who knows if his replacement is not a hardline supporter of the Taliban or AQ for that matter?

Usa 320 it doesn't happen like that in the real world?

I wonder what your reaction would be if a US SOF team conducted a raid into Pakistan,using "intel",where they killed the wrong people,or civillians or were captured by being set up through poor intel,and were put to trial in Pakistan,or even executed for "crimes" against Pakistani's?
thes mission would have to be so secretive that even the USG should not know about their existance!

[Rebel 7]

Just as how the US realized the threat of Al Qaida and the Taliban when it was too late, I fear that they will realize the threat of Pakistan when it is too late. Nobody knows Pakistan better than Afghanistan and India, and both nations have warned the US about the threat of that roach nest of terrorists (Pakistan).

[cut]

The West afford to takes it time when pakistan is the issue, mainly due to a little detail of it being a nuclear power. It is impossible to go to war with pakistan at short notice, it is not disorganised like the taleban were. War against Pakistan is out of the question for at least five years.

[obd]

Hey Argyll, again Im not trying to be offensive or start a flame war, but the United States has "plans" to attack virtually every naiton on earth in the event of an armed coup and rise to power of an "undesierable" or some other such unforseen circumstance. Great Britain also has, or has had, such plans as well. It is pure common sense to prepare and have a plan ready for as many eventualities as you possible can. Now, I people have posted in the past things like "US has plan to invade Canada" in an attempt to start a "The US is an oppressor and a threat to world security" flame war but, as most people know, the existence of a plan does not quantify the existence of motive!!!

I would actually find it amazing if the United States (and Great Britain also for that matter) did not have a plan to invade Iraq seeing as we already had our most recent war with that monster and lunatic Saddam Hussen back in 1991. To be quite frank, no matter what you feel are the Unitited States' motives for invading Iraq, be they negative or positve, there is no denying that the United States had the "chutspa" (the balls) to take down Saddam while no other nation was willing to do so (alone). In my opinion just the fact that Saddam is no longer a threat to his people or the region makes it all worthwhile.

Granted, Im not nieve enough to believe that Saddam was really a threat to US national security but he most certainly WAS a threat to his people, a threat to the region (including Israel who he bombed and professed to have plans to destroy utterly more than ounce), and a was a threat to US economic interests......Now you may feel that the US went to war for "underhanded" motives and I repectfully disagree with you but you would also have to lump Great Britain in there. Lets be honest, although you certainly could make the agrument that Great Britain was pressured into war, and I would support that, there is no denying that there was a VERY reasoned and rationalized motive, which was made clear during debates in British Parliament which I payed attention to, for supporting the US' war on Saddam.

Also, lets be prefectly honest here when we examine a nation states motivations in general. Very rarely do govnt's, be they dictatorships or democracy's, take actions with regards to international politics that do not involve thier own personal gain.

Also, the vast majority of wars, including the vast majority of Britains wars in such places as Malaya, Borneo, Aden, Oman, North Ireland, etc have been about national gain and not national securinty in the strict sense. Granted, in Falkalnds war, that was a purely defensive war but in places like Ireland, which some could argue was an anti-terror operation, is it not really the case that it was also about preserving British holdings which were secured in a war of agression against the Irish people long ago??? We all know the history of British colonization of Ireland and it was quite brutal, quite violent, and quite certainly an unjust war of agression by modern standards.......... (not to ignore the great many unjust wars in which my country, the United states, has been in: The native American wars being perhaps the most unjust, most genocidal, and most greedy in the history of mankind)

[usa320]

otherwise it was a very cynical excuse to start a war

Maybe its just me, but i dont see 3,000 people getting burned and burried alive under thousands of tons of concrete as a cynical reason to go to war. If thats a cynical reason to start a war, then what the **** isnt???

[aFgHaNibOi]

The clock's tickin' for Pakistan and their heart is beating its last beats... :roll:

[Argyll]

usa 320 again,you post excerpts of whatt I said,which twists it to suit your way of thinking!

I said the war on terror was a kneejerk reaction to 9/11,otherwise it was a cynical way to start a war,it did not refer to 9/11 as being the cynical way,that was Justified,not cynical,the point I was making was that if 9/11 had not happened,then neither would Afghanistan!.......perhaps Iraq yes.
The US was not active on terrorism prior to 9/11 sure it dropped a few bombs in the 80's and 90's,but that was the wake up call,but it came at a very costly price.......The facts that 2 months after the attack on American soil......attacks which we saw throughout the 70's through till the 90's,the plan was implemented,a coalition was formed.....which suggests that there was something ready in the pipeline......there are some Intelligence suggestions that they knew 9/11 was going to happen,but not of the exact dates,not all conspiracy theories are innacurate..................you need to keep an open mind!

[Royal]

Here we go again...


Also, the vast majority of wars, including the vast majority of Britains wars in such places as Malaya, Borneo, Aden, Oman, North Ireland, etc have been about national gain and not national securinty in the strict sense. Granted, in Falkalnds war, that was a purely defensive war but in places like Ireland, which some could argue was an anti-terror operation, is it not really the case that it was also about preserving British holdings which were secured in a war of agression against the Irish people long ago??? We all know the history of British colonization of Ireland and it was quite brutal, quite violent, and quite certainly an unjust war of agression by modern standards..........

All of the examples you have quoted (with the exception of the Oman/Dhofar, where UK forces were invited to assist by the Sultan) were anti-terror campaigns on what was at the time sovereign British or EMpire soil.

You state that the Falkands were a legitimate defence (after invasion by Argentina) but reckon that Borneo and Aden (after invasion by Indonesia and the Yemen, respectivly) weren't???

The military presence in Northern Ireland remains because it is a sovreign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and strangely enough (for you Yanks), the majority of the population want it to remain that way.

If you want to use the argument that it was invaded/colonised hundreds of years ago, maybe you should bog off back to whereever your great-great-great grandfather came from? Perhaps France should hand Savoie back to the Italians, Croatia should go back to the Venetians or maybe we should give Egypt back to the Romans?

[786mine]

Aren't PAkistan an allied friend to the U.S?they are but FATA [Federally Admin. Tribal Areas] are not controlled by Pakistan. No Pakistani law is applicable there. Basically a no-man's land.

[786mine]

Hello,

Pakistan created the Taliban. Pakistan fed some of the $3 billion dollars worth of US arms aid to anti-West extremists such as Gulbudeen and kept the rest for themselves (I know this as I was in Pakistan and saw crates of ammo labeled for the resistance being sold in Pakistani weapons shops in Peshawar). Pakistan has been pretending to be an ally of the US but is in reality a thief disguised as a police officer. There is a saying that Afghans and Indians have about the Pakistanis, "They will steal your wallet when your back is turned and when you tell them that your wallet was stolen, they pretend to help you find it." The CIA and Pentagon have got to stop being so gullible and start taking Pakistani reports with huge amounts of skepticism. When the US offensive against the Taliban began after Sept. 11, Afghans were happy that the Taliban were going to be ousted, but it was the PAKISTANIS protesting on their filthy streets about the US offensive. I mean, Afghans were happy and these Pakistanis weren't. That there shows that these guys were the Taliban, they ran the Taliban, and they basically used the Taliban to control Afghanistan. The Taliban was Pakistan's puppets in Afghanistan much like the Kashmiri terrorists are their puppets in India. If you go to Pakistan, almost EVERYONE there is anti-american. An American journalist went to Pakistan a few months after Sept. 11 and interviewed the men and women there and her documentary was shown on 20/20. The documentary showed Pakistani women praising bin Laden and saying that they would love to have him as their husband (I guess terrrorists turn them on) and the men were stated as saying the bin Laden is a hero. Its about time the US listened to what officials in the Afghan government have been secretly telling the US for the past 8 years (since the Taliban took Kabul in 1996). Yes, you heard me correct. Commander Massoud of the United Front resistance was passing information and warning the US long before Sept. 11 that the US must act quick against the Taliban and support them in their fight against the Taliban or else the world including the US would suffer great consequences from the Taliban. I can post his exact quote to the US government about 5 months before Sept. 11 warning the US about extreme consequences if they didn't act fast againt the Taliban and began supporting anti-Taliban resistance movements in Afghanistan. The US has the full support of Afghans in any operation they conduct in Pakistan since Afghans hate Pakistanis for the hell they brought in Afghanistan (ie. Taliban, Al Qaida, etc.)

Later,
Rebel 7

Zoey, again blaming Pakistan for your ****, huh? Ask your self why the Taliban was created, and when did this happen. Pakistan has enough problems of its own, it does not want to get involved in other people's ****. And speaking of Peshawar, its YOUR Aghani brothers you sell this. They have these factories in FATA and when the govt tries to stop them they go back to their caveholes. The Pakistan Army is going to go in FATA, its going to kick ass and it is going to capture all the foreign fighters that are there. And btw, the Taliban was NEVER created by Pakistan, read history you will find out that it was a small movement started in Kandahar which gained so much momentum that it formed a nation. Personally, I don't like the Taliban or Afghani mentallity. They both have a short fuze. Talk something wrong, they go for their pistol. I think the Pakistani govt should kick all of these son-of-bi**hes out of Pakistan and throw them back in their country and stop all the aide it provides. Then we will see what you have to say. Then if you call Pakistan bad names, that would be appropriate, but now when Pakistan has about 3 million of your refugees, I think you and all the Afghanis are wrong when they want to live in Pakistan but want to talk smack about it aswell. You remind me of a person who eats from the same plate but also spits in it.