Kosovo set for 'breakaway' talks

[Skaman]

Talks on whether Kosovo should remain part of Serbia or be given independence should start soon, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has said.

He made the recommendation to the UN Security Council after a report on human rights in the province, run by the UN since a war there ended in 1999.

Mr Annan's envoy Kai Eide drew up the report after a four-month mission.

Kosovo's ethnic Albanian-dominated authorities seek independence but Serbia wants to keep the province.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4319566.stm

[Tracker 23A]

here we go again :bash:

[Telnyashka]

Can Kosovo as an independant country even survive? It looks like it would just turn into Europe's new Moldova

[achilles]

Can Kosovo as an independant country even survive? It looks like it would just turn into Europe's new Moldova

Thats a good question. This could happen with large cash injections and investment from the West, especially the US that is indeed having plans for an independent Kosovo, or if Kosovo unites with Albania, something which the Serbs will never allow even if its the last thing they'll ever do.

My personal take is that Kosovo shoud remain as it is. A part of Serbia. I think the Albanians have neither the historical right nor the ability to run the place, given their current status in Kosovo. On the other hand, Serbia should promote their integration within their state, and this implies primarily respect for their fundamental rights. It wont be an easy task, given that Albanians have serious issues to resolve. And i will leave it to that.

The region will remain hot for many years to come...

[goldman]

Can Kosovo as an independant country even survive? It looks like it would just turn into Europe's new Moldova

Thats a good question. This could happen with large cash injections and investment from the West, especially the US that is indeed having plans for an independent Kosovo, or if Kosovo unites with Albania, something which the Serbs will never allow even if its the last thing they'll ever do.

My personal take is that Kosovo shoud remain as it is. A part of Serbia. I think the Albanians have neither the historical right nor the ability to run the place, given their current status in Kosovo. On the other hand, Serbia should promote their integration within their state, and this implies primarily respect for their fundamental rights. It wont be an easy task, given that Albanians have serious issues to resolve. And i will leave it to that.

The region will remain hot for many years to come...

Well it's good that no body cares about you're openion.:slap:

[achilles]

Well it's good that no body cares about you're openion.



First, and foremost, its opInion...

What are you an Albano freak or something who immigrated to Canada?

Tell me if its possible to discuss about it when douchebags like yourself show up.

[goldman]

Well it's good that no body cares about you're openion.



First, and foremost, its opInion...

What are you an Albano freak or something who immigrated to Canada?

Tell me if its possible to discuss about it when douchebags like yourself show up.

Well thank you for you're comments. You dont know anything about me so please stop making comments that make you're self look stupid!

[achilles]

Well it's good that no body cares about you're openion.



First, and foremost, its opInion...

What are you an Albano freak or something who immigrated to Canada?

Tell me if its possible to discuss about it when douchebags like yourself show up.

Well thank you for you're comments. You dont know anything about me so please stop making comments that make you're self look stupid!

No i dont know anything about you and i am not really interested in learning more.

Take a look back at your previous post and tell me who is the real idiot. You jumped in with a highjacking mood before the thread even started.

Unless you can show me the profanity in this "noone cares about your opinion" inspired sentence you came up with.

So, if you have something contructive to say, by all means, post...if not...STFU and watch ;)

[achilles]

Oh and it seems that this is one of your favourite lines...

Well who cares what you think. Besides, I'm not sure Serbia would go along with Independent Kosovo.

That was your reply in a thread that got locked recently.

Move on...

[goldman]

Well it's good that no body cares about you're openion.



First, and foremost, its opInion...

What are you an Albano freak or something who immigrated to Canada?

Tell me if its possible to discuss about it when douchebags like yourself show up.

Well thank you for you're comments. You dont know anything about me so please stop making comments that make you're self look stupid!

No i dont know anything about you and i am not really interested in learning more.

Take a look back at your previous post and tell me who is the real idiot. You jumped in with a highjacking mood before the thread even started.

Unless you can show me the profanity in this "noone cares about your opinion" inspired sentence you came up with.

So, if you have something contructive to say, by all means, post...if not...STFU and watch ;)

Listen boy, i dont give a **** about you or anyone as a matter of fact what you think or believe, but what i care about is when **** heads like you show up and talk ****. As for me highjaking this threads i think you should look at my record at mp.net. Now please lets move on.

[achilles]

Listen boy, i dont give a **** about you or anyone as a matter of fact what you think or believe, but what i care about is when **** heads like you show up and talk ****. As for me highjaking this threads i think you should look at my record at mp.net. Now please lets move on.

A whole lot of wrong assumptions:
1) Boy...
2) Thats i give a **** about your record. I was referring to the fact that you tried to highjack this one like a freaking moron

Now you are still failing to actually comment ON my post, which part exactly you disagree with and why...in other words, argue, counter argue and refute.

Now by all means remove your head from your sphincter and, indeed, move on...

[Zarathustra]

Thread about Kosovo always goes to **** anyway.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Isn't Kosovo like 95% Albanian?! How is that not a claim to the land?

[achilles]

Thread about Kosovo always goes to **** anyway.

I was hoping that this one would be different but someone popped up like a fart out of nowhere saying 'who give a **** about what you think'?

Thats not the way to sustain a thread on a hot issue, no? ;)

[goldman]

[quote=Zarathustra]Thread about Kosovo always goes to **** anyway.

I was hoping that this one would be different but someone popped up like a fart out of nowhere saying 'who give a f*** about what you think'?

Thats not the way to sustain a thread on a hot issue, no? ;)[/quote

Yea because you said albanians are not fit to lead kosovo, isnt that a racist comment? That's why i jumped to conclusion! And so if i say i dont give a **** what you think, and frankly i dont.

[DarkCypher]

goldman ignore achilles, he's baiting you and he's greek.

[achilles]

Isn't Kosovo like 95% Albanian?! How is that not a claim to the land?

Its good to look at it from a broader historical perspective:

1389

Prince Lazar, legendary Serb hero, is defeated by the Turks in Kosovo.

This marks the beginning of the end of the the medieval Serb nation. Serbia is ruled by Turkey for the next 500 years, and Kosovo takes its place at the heart of Serbian nationalist history.
1830

The Serbian principality is given full autonomy from the Ottoman Empire.

1912

Serbia joins other Balkan states in a war to drive the Ottoman Empire out of Europe. They win the war and Serbia re-acquires Kosovo.

Austria insists that Serbia and Monenegro give up part of their newly-conquered territory to form an independent Albania.

Between the first and second world wars the Serbians attempt to consolidate their hold on Kosovo by expelling Muslims, Albanians and Turks.

A land reform program gives the property of those expelled and other large land-owners to Serb colonists
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/kosovo2/63823.stm

Its not that the Albanians have no claim on the land, but Serbs have been the majority in the region for centuries. This is a good start if you are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kosovo

[Resevoir Hogs]

Again isn't Kosovo's population like 95% Albanian?! So whats the issue?

So what if Serbia is next door. Serbia isn't Kosovo. And whoever the majority is in a given area should rest assured they have the right to make decisions for themselves.

I'm not a expert on Balkan history but both sides could site historical claims till the cows came home. It doesn't change the current situation which is that Kosovo has a vast majority of Albanians.

[Zarathustra]

Again isn't Kosovo's population like 95% Albanian?! So whats the issue?

The serbs can get lost now. Like the Israelis in Gaza.

[achilles]

goldman ignore achilles, he's baiting you and he's greek.

The influx of bias is amazing...just amazing. Thats why noone can really ****ing talk about the balkans, around here..

I am Greek and that automatically means i am baiting him, right?

Stay tuned, if this doesnt get locked, to see if i am baiting or not.

[achilles]

Yea because you said albanians are not fit to lead kosovo, isnt that a racist comment? That's why i jumped to conclusion! And so if i say i dont give a f*** what you think, and frankly i dont.

Racist comments belongs to your sensitive imagination. I am just being realistic.

Now please follow Cypher's advice, ignore me and shut it..

[goldman]

Isn't Kosovo like 95% Albanian?! How is that not a claim to the land?

Its good to look at it from a broader historical perspective:

1389

Prince Lazar, legendary Serb hero, is defeated by the Turks in Kosovo.

This marks the beginning of the end of the the medieval Serb nation. Serbia is ruled by Turkey for the next 500 years, and Kosovo takes its place at the heart of Serbian nationalist history.
1830

The Serbian principality is given full autonomy from the Ottoman Empire.

1912

Serbia joins other Balkan states in a war to drive the Ottoman Empire out of Europe. They win the war and Serbia re-acquires Kosovo.

Austria insists that Serbia and Monenegro give up part of their newly-conquered territory to form an independent Albania.

Between the first and second world wars the Serbians attempt to consolidate their hold on Kosovo by expelling Muslims, Albanians and Turks.

A land reform program gives the property of those expelled and other large land-owners to Serb colonists
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/kosovo2/63823.stm

Its not that the Albanians have no claim on the land, but Serbs have been the majority in the region for centuries. This is a good start if you are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kosovo


Alot of people fail to understand that it wasnt only serbs who fought in Battle of Kosovo. And as for Serbs beeing majority in Kosovo this is not true. They came to Balkans around 5th century, so albanians were there before them. Any ways this is turning to be ugly. I'am just going to ignore this thread until it gets locked :D

[goldman]

Yea because you said albanians are not fit to lead kosovo, isnt that a racist comment? That's why i jumped to conclusion! And so if i say i dont give a f*** what you think, and frankly i dont.

Racist comments belongs to your sensitive imagination. I am just being realistic.

Now please follow Cypher's advice, ignore me and shut it..

Ah yes serbian regime did a wonderful job ruling Kosovo, they expelled almost a million people and burned the place to the ground, yup excellent.

[achilles]

Again isn't Kosovo's population like 95% Albanian?! So whats the issue?

So what if Serbia is next door. Serbia isn't Kosovo. And whoever the majority is in a given area should rest assured they have the right to make decisions for themselves.

I'm not a expert on Balkan history but both sides could site historical claims till the cows came home. It doesn't change the current situation which is that Kosovo has a vast majority of Albanians.

The thing is, that 'Kosovo has been Serbia' for centuries. Looking back at history when making claims on turf is a good way to go about it, as far as i am concerned.

I am not saying thatt Albanians should be strictly RULED by Serbians, they have gained their fair share of autonomy long time ago, what they dont have is independence. I dont think they are ready for it. Albanians can hardly pull it together in their explicit state, on their own...can you imagine them running an independent Kosove,, given also that the Serbs will never leave them alone?

They can well be autonomous and integrated within the Serbian State. By all means, they should be able to decide by themselves, for themselves and this may sound romantic, but Serbia can help.

All this will require a great deal of changes in both sides and i dont think it can happen any time soon. An independent Kosovo at the moment can only spark conflict and nothing more, in an already overstretched region.

[achilles]

Yea because you said albanians are not fit to lead kosovo, isnt that a racist comment? That's why i jumped to conclusion! And so if i say i dont give a f*** what you think, and frankly i dont.

Racist comments belongs to your sensitive imagination. I am just being realistic.

Now please follow Cypher's advice, ignore me and shut it..

Ah yes serbian regime did a wonderful job ruling Kosovo, they expelled almost a million people and burned the place to the ground, yup excellent.

This is why you should ignore me...you are always drawing the wrong assumptions and you are clearly predispositioned about me.

When did i say that Serbs have treated the Kosovar Albanians right?

[Resevoir Hogs]

Again isn't Kosovo's population like 95% Albanian?! So whats the issue?

So what if Serbia is next door. Serbia isn't Kosovo. And whoever the majority is in a given area should rest assured they have the right to make decisions for themselves.

I'm not a expert on Balkan history but both sides could site historical claims till the cows came home. It doesn't change the current situation which is that Kosovo has a vast majority of Albanians.

The thing is, that 'Kosovo has been Serbia' for centuries. Looking back at history when making claims on turf is a good way to go about it, as far as i am concerned.

I am not saying thatt Albanians should be strictly RULED by Serbians, they have gained their fair share of autonomy long time ago, what they dont have is independence. I dont think they are ready for it. Albanians can hardly pull it together in their explicit state, on their own...can you imagine them running an independent Kosove,, given also that the Serbs will never leave them alone?

They can well be autonomous and integrated within the Serbian State. By all means, they should be able to decide by themselves, for themselves and this may sound romantic, but Serbia can help.

All this will require a great deal of changes in both sides and i dont think it can happen any time soon. An independent Kosovo at the moment can only spark conflict and nothing more, in an already overstretched region.

Look we in Canada had a referendum on Quebec many years back. A Small Majority chose to stay in the Federation. Staying true to Democracy, the majority rules.

Kosovo is no more a part of Serbia than Taiwan is a part of China. If you were to poll the populations of either place you'd find a overwhelming majority of people who would want to be seperate or independant from their respective parent nation.

All I'm saying is Serbia has no claim to the land if the majority of people living there aren't Serbs and don't want to be associated with Serbia.

[shadower]

Again isn't Kosovo's population like 95% Albanian?! So whats the issue?

So what if Serbia is next door. Serbia isn't Kosovo. And whoever the majority is in a given area should rest assured they have the right to make decisions for themselves.

I'm not a expert on Balkan history but both sides could site historical claims till the cows came home. It doesn't change the current situation which is that Kosovo has a vast majority of Albanians.
The vast majority of Quebec is French people,do you thing Canada would let it go just like that,and what about Krajina vast majority 96% were Serbs and where are they now!?

[Resevoir Hogs]

Again isn't Kosovo's population like 95% Albanian?! So whats the issue?

So what if Serbia is next door. Serbia isn't Kosovo. And whoever the majority is in a given area should rest assured they have the right to make decisions for themselves.

I'm not a expert on Balkan history but both sides could site historical claims till the cows came home. It doesn't change the current situation which is that Kosovo has a vast majority of Albanians.
The vast majority of Quebec is French people,do you thing Canada would let it go just like that,and what about Krajina vast majority 96% were Serbs and where are they now!?

I'm quite aware the vast majority of Quebec is French, but if you want to get technical the majority of Quebec is Bilingual.

However, as I said the majority of voters in the last referendum voted to stay in Canada. So being French doesn't mean they're seperatists.

AS for if we'd let them go, Eventually after a settlement yes. But it wouldn't be all of the province of Quebec thats for sure.

Also they'd have to factor in the Mohawk indians who would either stay in Canada or want their own land back and be autonomous.

Canada cetainly wouldn't behave like Serbia has over the last decade thats for sure.

[shadower]

So why would Serbia let go all of Kosovo,and yes they were bilingual too.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Serbia wouldn't I never said they would. But they'd have a hell of a hard time holding on to it.

I'm not saying what Serbia would do. I'm saying what makes sense and what is right. Kosovo has a vast majority of Albanians, the vast majority of them believe they should be independent. Therefore democratically they have the right to declare their independence.

[shadower]

That's another story.

[goldman]

So why would Serbia let go all of Kosovo,and yes they were bilingual too.

Man this is BS no offence. When my grand father was a kid he didnt have any serbian neighbours, but they came in kosovo during 1920s like it or not!

[Resevoir Hogs]

If you truely believe in democracy as I do then its a very simple equation to solve. Majority of people in a given area agree they should be independant then the majority rules. Simple Plurality is what gives validity to a policy.

[AlexNenadic]

Ever since the 13th century, Serbs have been slowly migrating north. The loss of Kosovo is inevitable as they are pushed towards Vojvodina. One should realize this and stop bitching about the loss of land which was significant a long time ago.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Yea I'd be interested to finally read the history of that region that far back. But for now no free time to do it. It just seems simple to me, the majority has the right to make decisions over their domain. Otherwise the only validity you can put to a policy is the use of force and who is stronger at it. Anyways I'm off for the night so if you do reply to what I said, Shadower, I'll get back to it tommorow.

[shadower]

Goldman you can talk that to someone else not to me[no ofence].I know about Kosovo as much as you even if didnt live there.There was no family meeting that we didn't speak about it little bit.My famili originated in Mitrovica area and lived there when Kosovo was part of mid evil Serbia.

Now tell me how many Albanians came to Kosovo during 60's 70's as refuges and were living there and they never had citizenships not even ID's.
Number of Serbs and Albanians was about same until end of ww2 when tito regime forbid more then 200 000 serbs that refuge during ww2 to come back.

[Ogi]

Shadower, and my Greek friend Achillies just ignore them. It doesen't matter what people on this forum think, and you won't change their oppinion. Serbs will be back, and just as Albanians ethnicaly cleansed Kosovo of Serbs, Serbs will reverse the process. I'm sure none of these internet warriors will show up there to fight Serbs. It is easy to talk **** here, how many of yall were there in 1999?

[shadower]

If you truely believe in democracy as I do then its a very simple equation to solve. Majority of people in a given area agree they should be independant then the majority rules. Simple Plurality is what gives validity to a policy.
Serbs voted for staying with Yugoslavia and for independence from Croatia why didn't west then protect them and gave them independence.

[goldman]

Goldman you can talk that to someone else not to me[no ofence].I know about Kosovo as much as you even if didnt live there.There was no family meeting that we didn't speak about it little bit.My famili originated in Mitrovica area and lived there when Kosovo was part of mid evil Serbia.

Now tell me how many Albanians came to Kosovo during 60's 70's as refuges and were living there and they never had citizenships not even ID's.
Number of Serbs and Albanians was about same until end of ww2 when tito regime forbid more then 200 000 serbs that refuge during ww2 to come back.

Dude you cant be series right? During WW2 more albanians were forced out of kosovo then ever. And for albanians migrating from albania to kosovo honestly this is the first time i heard this.

[goldman]

I would really appreciate if the mods block this thread. There is nothing more i can say or even serbs. It's all the same thing over and over again.

[shadower]

I would really appreciate if the mods block this thread. There is nothing more i can say or even serbs. It's all the same thing over and over again.
There I agree!
I am out!

[Resevoir Hogs]

If you truely believe in democracy as I do then its a very simple equation to solve. Majority of people in a given area agree they should be independant then the majority rules. Simple Plurality is what gives validity to a policy.
Serbs voted for staying with Yugoslavia and for independence from Croatia why didn't west then protect them and gave them independence.

What we're talking about is Kosovo, only the people living there can ultimately decide what course of action to take. Whatever Serbia votes doesn't matter they don't live there. I didn't get a vote when Quebec had its referendum. Therefore Serbians living outside Kosovo shouldn't have a vote on its future.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Shadower, and my Greek friend Achillies just ignore them. It doesen't matter what people on this forum think, and you won't change their oppinion. Serbs will be back, and just as Albanians ethnicaly cleansed Kosovo of Serbs, Serbs will reverse the process. I'm sure none of these internet warriors will show up there to fight Serbs. It is easy to talk **** here, how many of yall were there in 1999?

Well considering I wasn't of serving age in 1999 then not me. However, my unit has sent troops to the Balkans and if you've heard of the Medak Pocket you'd know Canadians(including myself) have no problem with fighting Serbian forces, should they engage in a policy of ethnic cleansing. If your government is serious about again following those policies then you can rest assured I and thousand more NATO troops will be there in a pinch.

[shadower]

Not now because you protected us so well!And by the way in medak pocket you were fighting Croats not Serbs.You would know if you were there!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina

[Ogi]

Shadower, and my Greek friend Achillies just ignore them. It doesen't matter what people on this forum think, and you won't change their oppinion. Serbs will be back, and just as Albanians ethnicaly cleansed Kosovo of Serbs, Serbs will reverse the process. I'm sure none of these internet warriors will show up there to fight Serbs. It is easy to talk **** here, how many of yall were there in 1999?

Well considering I wasn't of serving age in 1999 then not me. However, my unit has sent troops to the Balkans and if you've heard of the Medak Pocket you'd know Canadians have no problem with fighting Serbian forces, should they engage in a policy of ethnic cleansing.

Well considering that you talk about stuff, and you have no idea about history, current state of things or future, why do you try to prove something to the people who were there. Medak Pocket??? You see that was an action in which Croatian spec. ops. sneaked into Serbian territory, while Canadians had the task of protecting it, because our weapons were locked in storages, and slaughtered unarmed civilians. When our troops took their weapons Croats were gone. Canadians didn't do their job. Why? Ask some of the people why didn't they protect Serbian territory, according to the agreement?

[Resevoir Hogs]

Because of UN rules of Engagement Canadian Forces did not have the mandate to use offensive force to repel the Croats, however when we were attacked we fought back and killed. Also a 2,500 strong croat force against 875 Canadians had certainly a lot to do with decisions that were made on the ground.

70% of the Canadian troops in that battle were Reservists just like me, so what they did considering what they had and the restrictions put on them by the UN I am very proud of how they handled themselves.

It was my mistake I didn't word that sentence properly. What I mean is we have no quams about fighting forces who are engaged in ethnic cleansing be they Serbs in some cases or Croats in others.

And btw the days of the UN holding our troops back from doing our jobs are over. You look at what we are engaged in doing in Afghanistan and you'll understand we ain't playing nice anymore.

Simple fact is should Serbia or whoever start with that same old policy of ethnic cleansing we will be there to show em the worlds resolve. That is that Genocide is wrong and those who commit it are criminals.

[shadower]

There was no genocide in kosovo number of killed people including serbs albanians and all military and paramilitary was little bit over 5000.

[shadower]

And now if you excuse me I got to go out.It's friday night right!

[Resevoir Hogs]

Amnesty International and the Red Cross would deffinetly disagree with them, and considering they aren't a party to either side in that conflict I think I'll stick with their numbers. Considering they were ammong those who had to dig up and count the dead.

[Ogi]

And now if you excuse me I got to go out.It's friday night right!

Too old for that.

Have fun!

[Resevoir Hogs]

yea it is friday and I'm running late, I'm out, will continue this tommorow.

[Ogi]

Because of UN rules of Engagement Canadian Forces did not have the mandate to use offensive force to repel the Croats, however when we were attacked we fought back and killed. Also a 2,500 strong croat force against 875 Canadians had certainly a lot to do with decisions that were made on the ground.

70% of the Canadian troops in that battle were Reservists just like me, so what they did considering what they had and the restrictions put on them by the UN I am very proud of how they handled themselves.

It was my mistake I didn't word that sentence properly. What I mean is we have no quams about fighting forces who are engaged in ethnic cleansing be they Serbs in some cases or Croats in others.

And btw the days of the UN holding our troops back from doing our jobs are over. You look at what we are engaged in doing in Afghanistan and you'll understand we ain't playing nice anymore.

Simple fact is should Serbia or whoever start with that same old policy of ethnic cleansing we will be there to show em the worlds resolve. That is that Genocide is wrong and those who commit it are criminals.

Look man, if NATO really wanted to stop Medak Pocket operation several cluster bombs would do the job. Problem is that NATO probably planned the operation, and those Canadians were there just as an excuse, and a cover. I'm not saying they didn't fight, but the fact is that they failed, and didn't do their part of the agreement.

[goldman]

There was no genocide in kosovo number of killed people including serbs albanians and all military and paramilitary was little bit over 5000.

Yup, Srebrenica didnt happen also.

[Tracker 23A]

this thread is definatly getting heated.

Whilst in Kosovo with the Ghurka Battle Group, I learned that EVERY one there did bad things, albeit the MUP, the Serbian Police force, did the most.

The region will remain fragile.

It will be interesting to see what Macedonia and Albania do in this present situation.

[Milkman]

Thread about Kosovo always goes to **** anyway.
Hmmmm just like the region does.

[Royal]

SNAFU

Locked children.