New videos from ANIMALS

[RomanS]

In the first one, chechen terrorists dress up in Russian uniforms and attack some poor and unguarded block-post.
http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/checkpoint.wmv

This one, is destruction of vehicles on the road in July 2003. Notice the civilian traffic. But animals don't care about their own people.

http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/podryvy20.wmv

[Undo]

This makes me angry.

[Parzival]

me too.

[Andyman]

the only good terrorist is a dead one.

[Undo]

Sounds like over a thousand rounds and several grenades for one (possibly two) KIA?

IEDs going off in their own cities and towns while civilian traffic goes by?

Well, as long as you say, "allahu ackbar" everything is OK?

I just can't find the words to describe how much these guys suck.

[memphiz]

the only good terrorist is a dead one.
i agree

[army cadet_ngcsu]

It still surprises me that the US and Russia are not closer than what they are right now considering that we both are waging costly wars against muslim terrorists. At one time I do remember that Bush and Putin were very close friends and Bush felt alot in common with Putin.

Not to mention both of our countries turned down the Kyoto Protocol

[DHN_STONE1]

the only good terrorist is a dead one.
i agree

yea but only if they kill them selfs and not others

[mustamato]

In the first one, chechen terrorists dress up in Russian uniforms and attack some poor and unguarded block-post.
http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/checkpoint.wmv

Personally I don´t have any problems at all with this particular one. I´m
not a fan of Chechen atrocities. But what is shown in this clip is just
conventional war. And in the beginning looking at the equipment and so
forth gives you a indication that it is quite well planned with a support
team with the Plamya and so forth, the assault is conventional in other
words. And what do you mean with "poor and unguarded block-post". As
I see it they are soldiers of the russians army that are attacked, and it
can hardly be the chechens fault if the russians are not armed and
prepared, they are in a war-zone god damn it.

[George W. Bush]

You're wrong Swede. Russia is not the U.S. They have a conscript military which they can't afford to train. As you know, it takes a lot of money to train a single person.

The video shows what cowards they are but you could also say that they are waging a war even if you disagree with them.

I don't want to jinx Operation Iraqi Freedom but I think we're going to make the Russians a bit embarrased in 6-7 months.

[Undo]

In the first one, chechen terrorists dress up in Russian uniforms and attack some poor and unguarded block-post.
http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/checkpoint.wmv

Personally I don´t have any problems at all with this particular one. I´m
not a fan of Chechen atrocities. But what is shown in this clip is just
conventional war. And in the beginning looking at the equipment and so
forth gives you a indication that it is quite well planned with a support
team with the Plamya and so forth, the assault is conventional in other
words. And what do you mean with "poor and unguarded block-post". As
I see it they are soldiers of the russians army that are attacked, and it
can hardly be the chechens fault if the russians are not armed and
prepared, they are in a war-zone god damn it.

I agree in principle. This is the closest thing to a military operation I have ever seen on kavkaz, that's for sure. However, it still gives you an idea of their bloodlust. They may have matching uniforms and radios, but the amount of ammo they use and the fact that they continue to shoot the dead policeman tell more than their pretty clothes.
Also, it is doubtful these are Russian soldiers/police being murdered. More likely they are Chechen MVD (which are technically Russian, really, since Chechnya is a part of the RF).
In addition, since there is no war in Chechnya currently (there are no Russian Army troops deployed there for wartime operations, only police, as the Russian government has declared the war to be over) and they lack national support or any kind of legitimacy, they are really just a gang of thugs murdering some policemen for their weapons.
In short, they are simply criminals and terrorists.

[mustamato]

You're wrong Swede. Russia is not the U.S. They have a conscript military which they can't afford to train. As you know, it takes a lot of money to train a single person.

The video shows what cowards they are but you could also say that they are waging a war even if you disagree with them.

I don't want to jinx Operation Iraqi Freedom but I think we're going to make the Russians a bit embarrased in 6-7 months.

What? Just because russian soldiers are "piece of ****" according to people
like you the chechen guerillas should just not attack them? What a bunch
of crap. And embarrasing Russia? I just recommend you to look her:

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

[Wilco]

Truth, these Chechen guys spend time planning and going forth with their actions, I bet they also have some videos of their actions failing and Chechen terrorist getting killed. This war is so screwed up and personally, it needs to stop.

[Undo]

Truth, these Chechen guys spend time planning and going forth with their actions, I bet they also have some videos of their actions failing and Chechen terrorist getting killed. This war is so screwed up and personally, it needs to stop.

The war is over. The only ones fighting now are criminals and terrorists.

[mustamato]

In the first one, chechen terrorists dress up in Russian uniforms and attack some poor and unguarded block-post.
http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/checkpoint.wmv

Personally I don´t have any problems at all with this particular one. I´m
not a fan of Chechen atrocities. But what is shown in this clip is just
conventional war. And in the beginning looking at the equipment and so
forth gives you a indication that it is quite well planned with a support
team with the Plamya and so forth, the assault is conventional in other
words. And what do you mean with "poor and unguarded block-post". As
I see it they are soldiers of the russians army that are attacked, and it
can hardly be the chechens fault if the russians are not armed and
prepared, they are in a war-zone god damn it.

I agree in principle. This is the closest thing to a military operation I have ever seen on kavkaz, that's for sure. However, it still gives you an idea of their bloodlust. They may have matching uniforms and radios, but the amount of ammo they use and the fact that they continue to shoot the dead policeman tell more than their pretty clothes.
Also, it is doubtful these are Russian soldiers/police being murdered. More likely they are Chechen MVD (which are technically Russian, really, since Chechnya is a part of the RF).
In addition, since there is no war in Chechnya currently (there are no Russian Army troops deployed there for wartime operations, only police, as the Russian government has declared the war to be over) and they lack national support or any kind of legitimacy, they are really just a gang of thugs murdering some policemen for their weapons.
In short, they are simply criminals and terrorists.

I´ve read somewhere that they tape their attacks because they get paid
for the attacks, and that they must have proof of it, to show for the Saudi
sheiks or who ever now is paying them. And yes, I do not consider them
as freedom fighters really. Chechnya between the two wars when they
were independent was not exactly the paradise on earth. But acting like
they were in this particular video clip makes them guerillas in my eyes,
however all of the other clips on their site is more terroristic of course.

And the war is not over for them. The war will be over when the Checnya
is independent and ruled under islamic law. Which I personally think will
never happen. But they don´t care, they fight and die for it.

[Uninen]

:fork:

[radon]

The war is over. The only ones fighting now are criminals and terrorists.
Why? the russians are still in Chechnya? But now what else could those people want?

[Undo]

The war is over. The only ones fighting now are criminals and terrorists.
Why? the russians are still in Chechnya? But now what else could those people want?

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Everyone in Chechnya is Russian, my friend. Chechnya is part of Russia.

[mustamato]

The war is over. The only ones fighting now are criminals and terrorists.
Why? the russians are still in Chechnya? But now what else could those people want?

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Everyone in Chechnya is Russian, my friend. Chechnya is part of Russia.

Just because they speak russian they are not russian. The only reason to why they don´t speak chechen is that people like papa Stalin and people like him killed their language and their culture.

[George W. Bush]

Duhhh..

Iraq is 25x bigger than Chechnya yet we still lost less people during the major war than the Russians.

The majority of U.S. casualties are a result of fanatical Islamist population living in Iraq. There are not a lot of things you can do to prevent such casualties but you can kill/detain the insurgents which is what we are doing now.

There is NO comparison between Russia's war in Chechnya and OIF.

[Uninen]

Guys..

Im shamed for you and because of you..

Chechens are the real terrorists..

What Al-Qaida has done was let to happen, and in Iraq the fact doesnt change no matter how much USA claims that in Iraq theres terrorists..

There arent.

Chechens however are the real deal..

Alluha akbar!

You can hear that **** right?

This has nothing to do with their 'nation', which btw they didnt ever have and will not ever have.

They are blood thirsty fanatics seeking to die for their god..

:fork:

[Undo]

The war is over. The only ones fighting now are criminals and terrorists.
Why? the russians are still in Chechnya? But now what else could those people want?

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Everyone in Chechnya is Russian, my friend. Chechnya is part of Russia.

Just because they speak russian they are not russian. The only reason to why they don´t speak chechen is that people like papa Stalin and people like him killed their language and their culture.

Many of them do speak Chechen, just as many of them are muslims and many of them still celebrate their Chechen heritage, but their citizenship, passports, etc. are Russian. This makes them Russian. Like it or not, they are Russian citizens.

[Uninen]

There is NO comparison between Russia's war in Chechnya and OIF.

You are right mate..

OIF is illegal invasion and Chechnya conflict is a internal security operation against domestic and international terrorists.

:cantbeli:

[Undo]

I hate the fact that there is disagreement about this issue. The US and the Russians are fighting the same enemy.

Many of the foreign fighters from Chechnya have gone to Iraq, and several have been caught returning. As I am sure our Isreali members can confirm, many of these same fighters have turned up in palestine. These are the same guys making a rotation.

We should try to improve relationship between US and Russia rather than clinging to old cold-war stances. If for no other reason than the proverb, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

[George W. Bush]

There is NO comparison between Russia's war in Chechnya and OIF.

You are right mate..

OIF is illegal invasion and Chechnya conflict is a internal security operation against domestic and international terrorists.

:cantbeli:

LOL, I see someone is jealous

[RomanS]

I agree with UNDO

we need to work together.

Remember that most of the terrorists in Chechnya right now, hate USA. And Israel as well.

I mean go to their website and read the news in English. Your eyes will bleed. The website is ran by movladi udugov, who has not 2 but 16 faces.

One day he was a pro USA (1994), after the chechens gained their independence in 1996 he welcomed all the new sponsors for his new country. Including alqueda, al-islamia jihad, djaamat musulmin, and others. Suddenly he didn't need USA anymore to guide him and his crew for victory.

US didn't want to sponsor the new country to avoid conflicts with Russia, neither did Europe. Weird huh? Europe was bitching at Russians so much for killing poor bandits and armed bearded thugs, but in 1996 suddenly didnt have the money to reconstruct new Chechnya? I don't get that, first they scream FREE CHECHNYA, HUMAN RIGHTS, and than sorry muhamed we not going to give money for your ****hole.

Speaking of human rights. We all see and read about demonic Russian soldiers killing 400,000 innocent Chechen civilians every year in the newspapers and tv. Do any of you know what happened to poor representatives from HRO that went to Chechnya to help the innocent people? Let me give you a hint - 4 members from Britain and New Zealand ........



Anyways the chechens needed money from somewhere after the first war. Pretty obvious that you have to have cash for your country, if you want to be independant from Russia. The great "freedom" loving new Chechen government (Basaev, Mashadov, Khattab, Abu Yakub, Amir Sayaf -notice all the great noble prize winners in politics) didnt feel like building a peacful economy. So they turned into other money making business

Kidnaping
Slavery
Executions
Drugs
Weapon smugling

on top of that, the muslim "freedom loving" organizations like al-queada started boosting their economy with good cash, new members (that actually don't even speak a ****in word of Chechen) for their government, and even ben laden himself sent letters and money to aslan mashadov.

I have resourses and facts from FSB and MVD that "sheikh" himself was planing on visiting chechnya to congratulate her people on victory against infidels. What else could be better than a brand new islamic state not far from peacful Afganistan, Pakistan, Tadjikistan, that had enough balls to send Russian troops home. All the new weapons and toys to play with, new camps to build for training brave mudjaheds, perhaps maybe even some uranium to aquire in the future from some corrupted Dagestani scientist. Chances are the dirty bomb wouldn't be used on Russia any time soon. I think we all know who muslim terrorists hate the most at the moment.

USA should of worked with Russia since the fall of Soviet Union. Also, some very bullheaded Russian politics needed to be just ****in killed. Some of you know who I'm talking about.

But I personally think some members of the US government don't want Russia to be friends. But hey, thats what the muslim terrorists want, right?

[Marmot1]

Duhhh..

Iraq is 25x bigger than Chechnya yet we still lost less people during the major war than the Russians.

The majority of U.S. casualties are a result of fanatical Islamist population living in Iraq. There are not a lot of things you can do to prevent such casualties but you can kill/detain the insurgents which is what we are doing now.

There is NO comparison between Russia's war in Chechnya and OIF.

No comparision...???!!!???

Iraq independent country invaed by US
Chechenya declard independence in 1991 like ukrain belarus kazachstan georgia lithuania estonia latvia and others... and then invaded by russians

Chechenya is part of russia becouse it was INVADED and CONQERED but that does,t mean they are russians like polish ppl never were russians despite 123 years of occupation in XIX century... and there were support from cicilians and probably there still is support despite russian propaganda, and one more thing.. russians declared end of war but chechens no so for them there is still war and any russian declaration can't change it...

[RomanS]

Marmot
whos side are you on?

[George W. Bush]

It should be called terrorism, not war because that is what it is. They are terrorizing the population of their country for their own personal gain.

It's not like the U.S. is there to convert everyone to Christianity, gas them, or take their oil. These are not legitimate freedom fighters.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Duhhh..

Iraq is 25x bigger than Chechnya yet we still lost less people during the major war than the Russians.

The majority of U.S. casualties are a result of fanatical Islamist population living in Iraq. There are not a lot of things you can do to prevent such casualties but you can kill/detain the insurgents which is what we are doing now.

There is NO comparison between Russia's war in Chechnya and OIF.

No comparision...???!!!???

Iraq independent country invaed by US
Chechenya declard independence in 1991 like ukrain belarus kazachstan georgia lithuania estonia latvia and others... and then invaded by russians

Chechenya is part of russia becouse it was INVADED and CONQERED but that does,t mean they are russians like polish ppl never were russians despite 123 years of occupation in XIX century... and there were support from cicilians and probably there still is support despite russian propaganda, and one more thing.. russians declared end of war but chechens no so for them there is still war and any russian declaration can't change it...
I believe you are terribly misinformed.
As was explained before after 1996, Chechnya wasnt exactly on the way to becoming a decent country with economy based on something other then kidnapping, drug trade, and smuggling.

[Marmot1]

Guys..

Im shamed for you and because of you..

Chechens are the real terrorists..

What Al-Qaida has done was let to happen, and in Iraq the fact doesnt change no matter how much USA claims that in Iraq theres terrorists..

There arent.

Chechens however are the real deal..

Alluha akbar!

You can hear that **** right?

This has nothing to do with their 'nation', which btw they didnt ever have and will not ever have.

They are blood thirsty fanatics seeking to die for their god..

:fork:

Wrong they had nation they had culture but they were "russified" and what is not known to many to XII century chechenya was christiian country... then it was turkish vasal to XVIII century when russia on one ocasion invaded them and then they had 3 or 4 year long uprising in 1848 lead by SHAMIL and after that second uprising in 1942 or 1943 after wchich half of the nation was murdered and rest of them were send to siberia from where they returned in 1950's nd most of the ethnic russians who live there were moved there just after the war to populate this area when chechens were depoted...
and i.e chechen capital GROZNY or GROZNYJ, AFAIK mean in russian DANGEROUS... and name comes from the name of one of the old russian military posts in the area wchich was constantyl atacked by chechens.... chechens never lived in cities they lived in familly villages high in mountan cuz they are highlanders nation and they are in cities becouse of russian policy to civilise them.....

[Marmot1]

Marmot
whos side are you on?

Well I am AGAINST terrorism and AGAINST RUSSIAN or US or any other IMPERIALISM I do not suport terorist nor i do not suport any nation imperial ambitions... my queston is why you invaded them? (not in 1999 but before, at the outbreak of I chechen war) They were on the good way to create country but russia interupted it and forced them to fight, and if you ask for me there is great diferrence betwen first and second chechen war since 1st one was war against invader to defend country and secend one was war with the warlords... but those warlords emerged as a direct consequence of 1st chechen war. Instead of invading them you should spend those money to invest in this country and gain economic instead of military influence, imagine those milions of dollars invested in this coutry it is cheaper than war and not so costfull in lives of sooldiers/civilians/insurgents. and it brings profits instead of bodies..

[RomanS]

"They were on the good way to create country but russia interupted it ...."

WOW

lol

Were you there when Dudaev's people were going house to house kicking "non-believers" out of Chechnya. THose who didnt want to leave their free new country, were brutaly murdered.

THERE ARE TAPES with evidence. That was in 1993-94.

Were you there when most of the people of Chechnya didnt want to be under Dudaev's regime and drink "camels milk out of the golden sinks" (his exact words), but were forced to believe and listen to his ideas.

How much do you know about Djohar and his crew? I take it - jack ****. Well let me educate you a little bit.
Dudaev needed help with his new government in 1991. So instead of fighting for his believes with traditional peacful "vote for me", he violently killed all the pro-Russian politicians in Chechnya, and on top of that freed most of the criminals that were put away during the Soviet Days.

You should knwo who I'm talking about. If not, well do some research. Here are some of the names that were part of " good way to create country"

Arbi Baraev
Shamil Basaev
Gelaev Ruslan
Ahmed Zakaev
Mashadov Aslan
Raduev Salman
Zelimhan Yandarbiev

They were in charge of the good new country in 1991.

Every single one of those ****s was a brutal member of crime. They killed their own people to make a point.

If you didnt know, I'm not sure how it goes in Poland, but....

Both sides have to agree for one to have an independence. You just ****in can wake up one day and declare Arizona to be a country. And those who don't like it, oh ****in well. Start kicking them out.

They don't want to go? Well kill them then. Make an example. A chechen without a knife, is not a chechen.

Yeah, you will have a bunch of cops knocking on your door. But wait wait, shoot the pigs. They are nothing but non-believers and infidels. Yes, BLAST THEM with your RPG that you not suppose to have.
Next thing you know, there will be military at your door.

why am I even arguying with you.
Its clear to me, who you favor in this life.

[Sierra]

the only good terrorist is a dead one.

I aggree, And that makes me mad too! :bash: :fork:

[usa320]

Anyone who blows up women and children for their own gay beliefs is a terrorist. I dont care if they are in Grozny, Basra, or Chicago for that matter.

There sure as hell is an al Queda link in Iraq. Just a few days ago we took in a key Al Queda guy from a building north of Baghdad... A man named Hasan Ghul. He planned on meeting with an Ansar-Al-Islam stooge by the name of Abu Musab Zarqawi. Zarquiwi was captured, and that led friendly coalition forces to Ghul, who was turned over to the US.

Had foreign fighters not moved their hellish terror to iraq, things would be MUCH better there than they are. Just as if Arab fighters didnt move their brutal crimes to the caucuses of the former soviet union.

Again, this shows that we need an international effort to increase human intelligence to stop the flow of these people.

[RomanS]

I grew up with this kid

I'm gonna try to skan some photos of us together

http://www.pravda.us/science/19/95/381/11490_martyr.html

[army cadet_ngcsu]

I believe that Iraq and Chechnya are extremely similiar. From everything from their guerrilla tactics to their calls of Allah Akbar, both are very similiar.

It seems to me that all around the world the muslim finds some sort of reason to fight and kill and it is never his fault...always the other side's fault (which is BULL ****, it takes 2 to make war). In Southern Sudan, the Phillipines, East Timor, Sri Lanka, Kashmir, Chechnya, Dhagestan, Israel, etc. in all of these places muslims kill Christians, Jews, Hindus, and other religious and ethnic minorities.

Hell, these assholes even kill each other...the Shi'ites and Sunnis have had countless wars against each other and the way they oppress their women and free thinking in their countries is a crime against humanity. Not the Western World is any better historically, but atleast we have lived and learned and seek to improve what evils we have done in the past...and you know to a certain extent there is that old American feeling of lets just be isolationist again and let these psyco assholes do what they want with their own people, but hell they can't even stick to themselves. They've got to blow up buses in France, fly planes into buildings in the USA, and try to spread chemical weapons in Subways in the UK. They're blinded fanatics and everyone in the western world needs to stop bull****ting and step up to the plate!

I hate to sound like some blinded conservative American imperialist, but think about, there are a good 2,000 or so service men and women who have been killed by these assholes alone in the past 20 years (bombings in Lebanon, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, Pentagon, and the wars in A-Stan and Iraq). Not to mention the countless American, Israeli, EU, and the other citizens of the world who have been effected by this plague for the past 50 years or so. Enough is enough.

[Undo]

Just minor note; Dhagestanis are muslim, but are NOT sympathetic to the chechen terrorists. They are peace loving and civilized. The recent hostage situation there was conducted by some foreign fighters looking for supplies when they fell afoul of local Dhagestani MVD. The foreign fighters have all since been hunted down and killed.

[Russian Texan]

Wanchung, since you are so into comparisons, here are several questions for you"
1. How long have US been engaged in Iraq, has it even been a year?
2. How many casualties did US have?
3. How many casualties did conscript army of USSR had in its first year in Afganistan?

You see I am asking those questions because two conflicts are very similar: both US and USSR invaded sovereign nations in order to pursue their own interests and both faced guerilla warfare.

Another question, please explain me the difference in training between a 18-19 infantry man in US army and in a Russian army. While you are at it, how much does it cost? I'd figured you know because you have said its "expensive".
Look at the faces of a regular US army infantry, they hardly look like tough professional killers, don't they?

BTW wars in Chechnya and OIF have absolutelly nothing in common: different reasons, different terrain, different skill/equipment level and tactics of the opposing forces. Whether I like them or not, Chechens are ferocious fighters while arabs....

[radon]

Many of them do speak Chechen, just as many of them are muslims and many of them still celebrate their Chechen heritage, but their citizenship, passports, etc. are Russian. This makes them Russian. Like it or not, they are Russian citizens. But what do these people themselves think about it.

Just think about russians. They as a nation have historically made wars against every nation and country near them. Russia is something that waits and waits ,until something is weak enough, then it tries to eat the something without mercy. Every state functions like this , someone could say. But russians make a bad example here.



whos side are you on?
I dont like both. The muslims propably less.

[Russian Texan]

Russia is something that waits and waits ,until something is weak enough, then it tries to eat the something without mercy

Examples?
What about countless other who invaded Russia every time there was an internal disarray?
Look at the history of Kiev Rus and then Russia and count how many times, including Scandinavian countries, they were invaded and how many times they did invade some one for expansionists reason. The facts are against you pal....

[Midav]

I agree. This makes me angry, too.

What the Russians need to start doing.. no wait. What the US and any other nation that fights these people.. these Muslim extremists need to do is take pig intestines and stuff it into the dead bodies of these dead radical fighters.

Then, cut the bodies up and dump the remains in various places.

On note, if this may offend some people, hey, war is hell.

[RomanS]

Its been done before Midav

but no, we don't want to cut no body parts. Why lower ourselves to their stinky level?

What we need to do is to get together, and simply ask them to behave.

If they kill our innocent people, we kill their in the random way. But twice in a row.

We want to live in peace, believe me. I DO ! but please don't ****in try to kill us in the name of your god.

[mustamato]

If they kill our innocent people, we kill their in the random way. But twice in a row.

So what´s the news? This has been going on since the 7th century and they and we are still around.

[Midav]

I understand what you are saying.

Yes, we need to ALL stand together stronger than any wall against this extremism.

However, sometimes, one needs to give the enemy a dose of his own medicine. Be as dirty as him.

I'm not saying that the whole society needs to stoop to the levels of those fanatics. Just a few people.

And, am certain there would be enough volunteers.

Do it to each and every extremist' corpse. And let them shout "Allahu achbar" at seeing their buddies mouth filled with pig guts.

Damn fanatics.

[mustamato]

I understand what you are saying.

Yes, we need to ALL stand together stronger than any wall against this extremism.

However, sometimes, one needs to give the enemy a dose of his own medicine. Be as dirty as him.

I'm not saying that the whole society needs to stoop to the levels of those fanatics. Just a few people.

And, am certain there would be enough volunteers.

Do it to each and every extremist' corpse. And let them shout "Allahu achbar" at seeing their buddies mouth filled with pig guts.

Damn fanatics.

Read what you wrote. Dr Mengele couldn´t have put it better.

[Midav]

Mengele wasn't provoked, either.

Touche.

[anonymous individual]

This is a great thread. Those Russians are providing a strong case to support themselves.

I do believe USA should pick up Russian tactics and reinvent them till they see them as fit. The amount of experiences gained from the Chechnya is limitless for Russia. USA should take the advantage and use it. Beside, two on a team is always better than one man rambo army. They should for sure work together. :hug:

[hood]

Only one thing is certain. They need to find a better camera man. The first one is almost useless because he spends the whole time shaking it like a maraca. Can't see anything. The second one is only slightly better. Just before anything blows up he almost always shakes around. Please send him on the next suicide mission.

[16 OBr SpN]

No operation is similar. Each operation is significant in its own way.

Those who say that Americans would have done a much better job in Chechnya are very incompetent. If someone wants to prove the opposite, be my guest.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Uninen]

Only one thing is certain. They need to find a better camera man.

:roll:

If you think after seeing that in this way.. wait until you see this:

Ambush by Chechen Mujahideen (save as) (http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/ambush.wmv)

This is what would potentially be a intresting footage of fierce fire fight..

However..

It seems that the fanatics camera doesnt after all trust all that much to his god.. and cant really film anything of interest..

:|

[Uninen]

The film that just posted is called as Ambush..

But from what i can see.. it really is a failed one..

As the Russians force the Chechens to retreat..

As the Russian seem to be spetsnaz or VDV.. with the good looking gear, and all have the same kind of white uniform..

:roll:

[oldsoak]

I think the west needs to engage with Russians on Chechnya and provide them with whatever intelligence we have on the matter. This of course can be done "under the table" so to speak. There is a thorny problem of those seeking refugee status in the UK, but we can ensure that everything they do is known to us and the Russians. Anyway, these fundamentalist types are just as likely to blow themselves up in London or New York as well as Moscow. Also, after those guys got kidnapped and killed and I heard about captured Russian soldiers being butchered ( not even cleanly killed, but tortured to death ) , I think we should start helping out. Say what you like about the Russians, they have a system of accountability. The Chechens have none that I can see. Just MHO.

[Roger Rabbit]

I would have thought that this is already going on. Better to keep it quiet though and not draw the publics attention. Still thats just what i think.

[Javehn]

Just to confirm what has been said before . The terrorists do rotate between different countries . I bellieve one of the highest ranking fighters was called "the Jordanian" (i think his name was Arbi , but i am not shure ) participated in "Jihad" (Islam holly war and stuff) in Afganistan , and in Lebanon . If i am not mistaken , Chechen forces did used suicide tactics , the first one originated from Lebanon , when suicide Merceddess stoped near IDF convoy , and blue himself up .
The IED method was also originated probably from 2 countries that fought at the same time , Lebanon and Afganistan . The terrorists used to talk between themselfes , "learn" between themselfes ( Hamas fighter practisized ATGM shooting inside Lebanon on IDF tanks , to those who say they have no miilitary learning or experience, Muslim fighters trained in Saudi Arab deserts together , and disperced between different countries , or trained in different fighting regions in order to pass the experience to other part ) .

There is also the fact , that many Chechen commanders where formally Soviet army officers and soldiers , and they knew very well the weekness of Soviet army . Perhaps they are entitled to fight for independence , but the way they do it , is called terror way .

And if "Allahu Akbar" , or something else made them shoot not only over heads of poor dumbass Amnesty guys that didn't knew where they comming , but also over they children and people , then those people must be stoped , and sooner as everybody will realise this , the better .
People that planting IED on they own roades in they own cities , and then blaming the army for civil casualties must be stoped .

[khukuri]

In many og your posts i see you label them as COWARDS. Thats so bull****, if you russians are so brave the, why dont you abondon your tanks, apc:s, helicopters, mortar support and airplanes and fight on equal terms?

If you russians where so brave, why did you bomg GROZNY the capital of chechnya with thousands of bombs and katjusha(rocketarty)rounds? Before you entered?

Just because moscow says "war in chechnya is over" doesnt it mean that it is, its not up to them to decide when the war is over. So the frase which some one put up here that only terrorist and criminals are the ones whois fighting is bs.

[khukuri]

Marmot
whos side are you on?

Well I am AGAINST terrorism and AGAINST RUSSIAN or US or any other IMPERIALISM I do not suport terorist nor i do not suport any nation imperial ambitions... my queston is why you invaded them? (not in 1999 but before, at the outbreak of I chechen war) They were on the good way to create country but russia interupted it and forced them to fight, and if you ask for me there is great diferrence betwen first and second chechen war since 1st one was war against invader to defend country and secend one was war with the warlords... but those warlords emerged as a direct consequence of 1st chechen war. Instead of invading them you should spend those money to invest in this country and gain economic instead of military influence, imagine those milions of dollars invested in this coutry it is cheaper than war and not so costfull in lives of sooldiers/civilians/insurgents. and it brings profits instead of bodies..


WORD

[16 OBr SpN]

In many og your posts i see you label them as COWARDS. Thats so bull****, if you russians are so brave the, why dont you abondon your tanks, apc:s, helicopters, mortar support and airplanes and fight on equal terms?

If you russians where so brave, why did you bomg GROZNY the capital of chechnya with thousands of bombs and katjusha(rocketarty)rounds? Before you entered?

Just because moscow says "war in chechnya is over" doesnt it mean that it is, its not up to them to decide when the war is over. So the frase which some one put up here that only terrorist and criminals are the ones whois fighting is bs.

Listen kid, why don't you stick to some subjects you know about? Care to ****ing bring up your "wise" thoughts about how to fight in Chechnya?

Otherwise don't ****ing disrespect our country and our soldiers! Our soldiers did heroic things, where a ****ing bitch like you would call for mommy!

**** you, ****head!

To the others on this forum: I'm sorry guys, this is the first time, someone really pissed me off on this forum!

[Undo]

In many og your posts i see you label them as COWARDS. Thats so bull****, if you russians are so brave the, why dont you abondon your tanks, apc:s, helicopters, mortar support and airplanes and fight on equal terms?

If you russians where so brave, why did you bomg GROZNY the capital of chechnya with thousands of bombs and katjusha(rocketarty)rounds? Before you entered?

Just because moscow says "war in chechnya is over" doesnt it mean that it is, its not up to them to decide when the war is over. So the frase which some one put up here that only terrorist and criminals are the ones whois fighting is bs.

What are you, about 10 years old? Maybe 13? Perhaps after you acquaint yourself more fully with the world you can post your opinion here and it will not be laughed at.

First, no one in this thread said the chechen terrorists were cowards, in fact, it has been said that they are tough fighters. So your first point is total BS.

Second, you clearly have never served a day in your life and have no idea about how the world works. If you have a tank, you use it. To do otherwise is just stupid. Fortunately, militaries are not subject to whatever defines "bravery" for an adolescent like yourself. It is tactically unsound. By your definition every army that has won a war has been cowardly.

Third, if you are so brave, come and say those things you said in person to Permskii, 16Obr, RussianTexan, or myself. Heck, say them to anyone in or formerly in any military in the world. At best they will roll their eyes at you, but I think you would get a more hostile reaction.

And last, yes, it is up to the Russians to say the war is over. A nation against 1400 or so terrorists is not a war. There is no nation of Chechnya to be at war with. There is a government of Chechnya, which is part of the Russian Federation, with elected representatives (don't start). The Russians are trying to restore order and civilization to this region after the terrorist and fanatics destroyed it. A militia somewhere in Oklahoma might say they are at war with the US, too, but that doesn't make it so. They, too, are just criminals and bandits.

[anonymous individual]

You guys should go easy on the kid. He is only a 12 if not a 10 years old child.

Would somebody think about the children and, particularly, the kid?

Every single point he made was obivously immature and was not tactically sound. You do not have to poin him straight. If you do, you might save his life in the future. So just let he be ignorance as he would like to. :D

[Uninen]

The war is over,

Only ones that are left of the Chechen resistance are couple of small gangs..
(Less than 1500 fighters..)

And just a couple of weeks ago spetsnaz eliminated couple of those groups..

Including some of the best fighters left.

(After the group had killed 8 border guards and took some villagers as hostages, the spetsnaz went in and eventually after a chase killed them all and captured few left alive..)

And other group they eliminated by mortar attack on their base..

They also just found one of the hide outs used by Chechen 'president' Mashadov.. and captured much equipment in there.. including his armored Mercedez..

;)

[Javehn]

yes , indeed . Idiots don't die , they got replaced ...

I wached couple of hours ago a documentary about the last fight in Dagestan mountains between Russian Spec units , and the remainings of Chechen rebbels . Strong stuff ... Too bad i cached it when it was about to end :( .

[Marmot1]

Arbi Baraev - OK
Shamil Basaev OK but...
Gelaev Ruslan - OK but...
Ahmed Zakaev- Well maybe for you he is a bllody killer but he is currently in europe and all countries refused to pass him to russia for trial so I thin that only in russia he is terrorist and rest of europe has diferent opinion...

Mashadov - Aslan Are you joking... and about kicking non chechens... chechen is about 1.4m ppl (or it was before war) and after WW2 when chechens were on exile in siberia and kazakhstan some 700000 russians were settled in their homeland... and you are wondering why they want thosoe ppl out....
Raduev Salman
Zelimhan Yandarbiev

Well for you they might be terrorist for me too but not all of them and if we come to being criminals i remember wideo where chechen fighter was ripped on two parts by two bmp his hands and feets were tied by rope and then bmp started to move slowly and he was ripped... ant that were for 100% russians , no allahu akkbar or anything like this


Its been done before Midav

but no, we don't want to cut no body parts. Why lower ourselves to their stinky level?

What we need to do is to get together, and simply ask them to behave.

If they kill our innocent people, we kill their in the random way. But twice in a row.

We want to live in peace, believe me. I DO ! but please don't f*** try to kill us in the name of your god.

you do not want to cut their bodies parts so why i have seen russian military diegos (GAZ-66 or something like it) ant there were 3 or 4 heads tied on a wire tu bumper... isn't that against geneva convention???

Also i have spoken with chechen refuge in poland he told my why he left his home.... he lived near the GRONY some 10km from city center (sorry do not remember name of the village) one day rusian soldiers come, not the regular conscript infantry but some contract soldiers or something like this, they started "searching for rebels and guns" - that was killing 79year old deaf men who did not left his house, raping couple of young girls, kiling whole family which refused to leave house (all houses were set in fire and this family refused to leave so they were locked and burned inside). Those soliders were totaly drunk, as this man reported to me and they (those chechen man and his family) only survived this "search" becouse regular infantry from draft come to this village and defended civilians against those ANIMALS in russian uniforms. This man was an engener in grozny and he wanted to live in peace but after his home was burned daughter was raped on his eyes he wanted to join rebels,but his wife forced him to leave country with fammily,currently they live in refuge camp (small one - for illegal immigrants) near warsaw, or at least they lived there last summer when i was there one day...

sorry but if you treat ppl like this no wonder why war is so long...

[Marmot1]

In many og your posts i see you label them as COWARDS. Thats so bull****, if you russians are so brave the, why dont you abondon your tanks, apc:s, helicopters, mortar support and airplanes and fight on equal terms?

If you russians where so brave, why did you bomg GROZNY the capital of chechnya with thousands of bombs and katjusha(rocketarty)rounds? Before you entered?

Just because moscow says "war in chechnya is over" doesnt it mean that it is, its not up to them to decide when the war is over. So the frase which some one put up here that only terrorist and criminals are the ones whois fighting is bs.

What are you, about 10 years old? Maybe 13? Perhaps after you acquaint yourself more fully with the world you can post your opinion here and it will not be laughed at.

First, no one in this thread said the chechen terrorists were cowards, in fact, it has been said that they are tough fighters. So your first point is total BS.

Second, you clearly have never served a day in your life and have no idea about how the world works. If you have a tank, you use it. To do otherwise is just stupid. Fortunately, militaries are not subject to whatever defines "bravery" for an adolescent like yourself. It is tactically unsound. By your definition every army that has won a war has been cowardly.

Third, if you are so brave, come and say those things you said in person to Permskii, 16Obr, RussianTexan, or myself. Heck, say them to anyone in or formerly in any military in the world. At best they will roll their eyes at you, but I think you would get a more hostile reaction.

And last, yes, it is up to the Russians to say the war is over. A nation against 1400 or so terrorists is not a war. There is no nation of Chechnya to be at war with. There is a government of Chechnya, which is part of the Russian Federation, with elected representatives (don't start). The A militia somewhere in Oklahoma might say they are at war with the US, too, but that doesn't make it so. They, too, are just criminals and bandits.

1400-1500 are russian estimates... so be carefull with them

There is chechen nation despite russian propaganda and it's a nation with long history (i.e one of their uprisings against russia was in 1848(?) )

ellctions...come on it was undemocratic ellection as hell, where in the world occupation forces are allowed to vote (imagine US soldiers being allowed to vote in iraq :-) ) and some 30000 russian soldiers/OMON/or other paramilitary servicemens were voted in chechenya.
this "voting" miracle is comon in russia.. sorry but if you are cheating in elections how you are bringing democracy and civilisation to them???

militia in oklahoma is not a nation like chechens...Russians are trying to restore order and civilization to this region after the terrorist and fanatics destroyed it.



Russians are trying to restore order and civilization to this region after the terrorist and fanatics destroyed it.
yeah and who shelled and bombed GROZNY and other cities??? not chechens

Rusian soldiers are brave despite their equipment sometimes is not so high-end. BUT there is also a lot of crimilnals and bandits in russian army and AFAIK only one was sentenced to this time (colonel!!!) despie 10 years of war... compare this to US in iraq who to this time sentenced no less than 5 soldiers for mistreating of POWs and violating ROE.

If your army tolerate raping, murdering, and bulgary so you are no better than chechens.... and maybe they learned this from your army (remember 1st chechen war??? there were russian POWs in chehen hands and they were returned home and now chechens do not take POWs... my question is WHY??? maybe becouse they attitude changed becouse russian attitude changed also..)

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/russ-atrocities.html
read this or visit this page...
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/chechenya-index.html


some chechen history.
http://www.naqshbandi.net/haqqani/sufi/chechen_hist.html

[anonymous individual]

Marmot1, what are you talking about?

[RomanS]

another victim of kavkazcenter

marmot
why don't you go to Chechnya, and help them out. Seriously see what happens. Come there, tell them you hate the Russian invaders, imperialism, and you want to help the poor innocent chechens.

However before you go, go to your metal work shop in Poland, and ask for a custom neck cover. And make sure they weld it very good on your throat. This should help in negotiations with Chechens.

Be careful, they don't speak "peacfully", they don't know how.

in other words - go **** yourself asshole.

[Praxus32]

It's funny when Russians try to point at Iraq when Americans point to Chechnyia. We have had only 350 KIA, how many KIA has Russia had in the TINY, PUNY, PATHETICLY SMALL country?

[Undo]

There is chechen nation despite russian propaganda and it's a nation with long history (i.e one of their uprisings against russia was in 1848(?) )

Depends how you define "nation" I suppose. To me and many others, no Chechen nation.


ellctions...come on it was undemocratic ellection as hell, where in the world occupation forces are allowed to vote (imagine US soldiers being allowed to vote in iraq :-) ) and some 30000 russian soldiers/OMON/or other paramilitary servicemens were voted in chechenya.
this "voting" miracle is comon in russia.. sorry but if you are cheating in elections how you are bringing democracy and civilisation to them???)

Russian soldiers and police voting in Russia. What's the problem?


militia in oklahoma is not a nation like chechens...Russians are trying to restore order and civilization to this region after the terrorist and fanatics destroyed it.

Chechnya is not a nation. It is like a state in the US. So this comparison is valid.



AFAIK only one was sentenced to this time (colonel!!!) despie 10 years of war... compare this to US in iraq who to this time sentenced no less than 5 soldiers for mistreating of POWs and violating ROE.

You defeat yourself with your own reasoning. How many chechen terrorists have been punished by their leaders for warcrimes? None? That's what I thought.

As far as POWs, I know of many former chechen fighters in Russian prisons. How many Russian soldiers are POW in Chechnya? That's right, none. If you want to find out what happens to captured Russians you can find it on kavkaz, ******, theEvidence, etc. But still you defend them?


Mashadov - Aslan Are you joking... and about kicking non chechens... chechen is about 1.4m ppl (or it was before war) and after WW2 when chechens were on exile in siberia and kazakhstan some 700000 russians were settled in their homeland... and you are wondering why they want thosoe ppl out....

So ethnic cleansing is OK if its done by chechens?


Ahmed Zakaev- Well maybe for you he is a bllody killer but he is currently in europe and all countries refused to pass him to russia for trial so I thin that only in russia he is terrorist and rest of europe has diferent opinion...

Not quite true. Murderers from the US will not be sent back to the US either, unless the US promises the murderer will not recieve the death penalty. Russia simply won't make any such promise. His crimes are well documented.


Well for you they might be terrorist for me too but not all of them and if we come to being criminals i remember wideo where chechen fighter was ripped on two parts by two bmp his hands and feets were tied by rope and then bmp started to move slowly and he was ripped... ant that were for 100% russians , no allahu akkbar or anything like this

Post it.


you do not want to cut their bodies parts so why i have seen russian military diegos (GAZ-66 or something like it) ant there were 3 or 4 heads tied on a wire tu bumper... isn't that against geneva convention???

Saw it, did you? When you were in Chechnya? Got a pic? Share it.


Also i have spoken with chechen refuge in poland he told my why he left his home.... he lived near the GRONY some 10km from city center (sorry do not remember name of the village) one day rusian soldiers come, not the regular conscript infantry but some contract soldiers or something like this, they started "searching for rebels and guns" - that was killing 79year old deaf men who did not left his house, raping couple of young girls, kiling whole family which refused to leave house (all houses were set in fire and this family refused to leave so they were locked and burned inside). Those soliders were totaly drunk, as this man reported to me and they (those chechen man and his family) only survived this "search" becouse regular infantry from draft come to this village and defended civilians against those ANIMALS in russian uniforms. This man was an engener in grozny and he wanted to live in peace but after his home was burned daughter was raped on his eyes he wanted to join rebels,but his wife forced him to leave country with fammily,currently they live in refuge camp (small one - for illegal immigrants) near warsaw, or at least they lived there last summer when i was there one day...

sorry but if you treat ppl like this no wonder why war is so long...

Yes, well my uncles fathers friend once told me about...

I will not say that brutality has not been committed against civilians by Russian troops, especially in the first war. The circumstances were not good. 18 year old conscripts with access to promodol having to shoot through the bodies of their friends because the chechens used prisoners for cover will lead to bad things.

I also have a video of a Russian amnesty in which Chechens arrive, turn in weapons, recieve medical care, and are released (provided they have not committed attrocities.) Have you got such a tape from the Chechen side? Maybe there is one, hidden amongst all of the throat cutting and disemboweling and IED videos. I just don't have the stomache to search.

I understand that Poland did not fair well under Soviet rule, and if you don't like Russians just say so. But I would be more discriminating about the people I chose for friends.

Look at the DOCUMENTED evidence. Even evidence from HRW, etc. The international community can exert pressure on a nation like Russia if there are abuses. What can be done against terrorists? If you look at kavkaz and those other sites and you can still defend your precious chechen terrorists, then I have nothing more to say to you.

[Argo AdAm]

There is chechen nation despite russian propaganda and it's a nation with long history (i.e one of their uprisings against russia was in 1848(?) )

Depends how you define "nation" I suppose. To me and many others, no Chechen nation.
:cantbeli: Don't be ... You can create your own definitions what the nation is, but it doesn't change the facts. It's clear for everyone that nation is based on tradition, history, unique language, union between people and things like that and not on the papier documents like passport. That's why Jews could exist for many ages as a nation without their own country, the same was with Poles and others who were conquered and occupaid for many years. Probably some Russians may have a problem with understanding what I'm talking about, because their country was never under real occupation (you had a luck and it's good).



Many of them do speak Chechen, just as many of them are muslims and many of them still celebrate their Chechen heritage, but their citizenship, passports, etc. are Russian. This makes them Russian. Like it or not, they are Russian citizens.
They are officialy only Russian Federation citizens but not Russians. This is sometimes a BIG difference. Do you think you are Russian only because you've got a Russian passport?

If you think Chechen isn't the nation, than why have you written that "many of them still celebrate their Chechen heritage"? So Chechens as "Russians" celebrate heritage of nation which in your opinion doesn't exist? ;)



militia in oklahoma is not a nation like chechens...Russians are trying to restore order and civilization to this region after the terrorist and fanatics destroyed it.

Chechnya is not a nation. It is like a state in the US. So this comparison is valid.
I'm sorry but what a BS. :cantbeli:
What about Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraina, Georgia and others small nations that for many years were only a parts of Soviet Union? They also weren't nations those days? What about Jews before they created their own country?
Your words about that Chechenya isn't the nation have not a magic power and as I've said before, you can't change the reality.
You can call Chechens not only Russians but also Eskimos or even gnoms or orks...
Everyone knows better than anyone else what his nationality really is.

Please don't think I don't like Russian because it's not true.

[Javehn]

As far as i understood , Russian forces fought against separators , and were mostly criminals , finansing they action on people kidnapping , oil manipulation , drug pushers . They were no part at the legal elected government of Chechnya at that time , and that is the act of so called "freedom fighters " , or terrorists to legal government . Those people took part of mass murder and dislocation of Russian citizens in city of Grozniy , and had many Muslim fundamental members , or common criminals/Russian haters from other countries .
It wasn't "revolution" stile Azerbaijan , Armenya , or whatever , when the local government , with it's people aid itself decided to brake apart from central Moscow control . So as i understand , those people who started the conflict were common criminals , and nothing else . Later , part of local population took part of the strugle , as several Chechen kishlaks were destroyed with civilians , and the Chechen decided to take revenge upon the soldiers .

[Undo]

:cantbeli: Don't be ... You can create your own definitions what the nation is, but it doesn't change the facts. It's clear for everyone that nation is based on tradition, history, unique language, union between people and things like that and not on the papier documents like passport. That's why Jews could exist for many ages as a nation without their own country, the same was with Poles and others who were conquered and occupaid for many years. Probably some Russians may have a problem with understanding what I'm talking about, because they country was never under real occupation (you had a luck and it's good).

These are interesting points, and I admit that this is the weakest (or at least, most debatable) part of the argument.

As I have said, I have sympathy for Poland for all that has occurred there, under Hitler, Stalin, etc. back into history. Many people suffer because of geography.

I also have sympathy for most of the real Chechens, to be honest. In the beginning, they did want their independence and fought hard to get it (though perhaps not using the best methods). But when the tide turned against them, they yelled JIHAD, and the cry was heard in every terrorist training camp in the Muslim world. Do you know the places Budyonnovsk and Kizlyar? The name khattab, who cut throats and drank blood in front of video cameras so that his husband bin laden would have something to jerk off to? Perhaps a quick google search will refresh your memory about the true face of these chechen "freedom fighters." But after the first Chechen war they got de facto independence.

This is where things get truly ugly, however. Had Chechnya truly tried to become a legitimate state, things would be very different now. Unfortunately, they turned to the industries listed by PermskiiOmon, trading in human misery, etc. Still, Russia stood by, muted by international critizism or whatever. Only after they began trying to export their crimes to neighboring regions and blowing up bombs in Moscow did Russia take action again. Now, there is at least hope of a normal life in Chechnya. Maybe your average Chechen sees it as a lesser of two evils, but Russian peace is preferred to terrorist chaos. Fact, unfortunate or not, is that there will not be a nation of Chechnya. It was tried, it went very poorly, it is done.

I just don't understand why anyone still supports these terrorists that are there now. Yes, too bad about the independence, those Chechens are all dead or gone. If you want to talk about the past, that is one thing. The only ones still fighting are a tiny minority of thugs, murderers and foreign waste.

[anonymous individual]

good reading from thw work of Undo.

[Marmot1]

Depends how you define "nation" I suppose. To me and many others, no Chechen nation.

Why no nation becouse they were conquered by russians.... and maybe there is no kurdish nation for you becouse they are divided betwen turkey,iran,iraq and syria and maybe there is no jewish nation since there was no israeli state for almost 2000 years...



Russian soldiers and police voting in Russia. What's the problem?


Well they elected chechen president and local chechen parliament so why ppl who normally live outside this republic were allowed to vote in local elections??? I understand that they can vote if there were presidential election for the president of fussian federation and to Duma but to hell not in local elections!!!



Chechnya is not a nation. It is like a state in the US. So this comparison is valid.

Again bul**** they are nation like kurds and mentioned above jews becouse they feel that they are chechens not russians.



You defeat yourself with your own reasoning. How many chechen terrorists have been punished by their leaders for warcrimes? None? That's what I thought.


How many chechens 0 how many russians 1 yeah great russian archivement, remember russians are those bringing civilization and democracy... not chechens
read this this is what russian commander said:
"Those who conducted the cleansing operations in Sernovodsk and Assinovskaya did so in a clumsy, lawless fashion, destroying everything and then pretending they knew nothing about it," said General Vladimir Moltensky.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1433802.stm
it was july 2001 and how many of those soldiers were punished??? "0" or at least i never heard about it but maybe our russian friends can help us with this...



As far as POWs, I know of many former chechen fighters in Russian prisons. How many Russian soldiers are POW in Chechnya? That's right, none. If you want to find out what happens to captured Russians you can find it on kavkaz, ******, theEvidence, etc. But still you defend them?


I DO NOT DEFEND MURDERERS who kill POWs but there are also chechens who killed russians in combat and for me this is not a crime especialy when you fight for your independence. US fighted with England during revolution and there was no american nation at this time so you want to call i.e. G WASHINGTON bandits leader??? since they fighted against legitime goverment and it's army



So ethnic cleansing is OK if its done by chechens?


Well if they are peacefully expeled, not exterminated... and what would you do if under ocupation somebody would bring settlers and in country where your nation had 99% in local polulation it drops to 60%... and maybe even lower since many chechens died recently in war and it's not a big nation...



Not quite true. Murderers from the US will not be sent back to the US either, unless the US promises the murderer will not recieve the death penalty. Russia simply won't make any such promise. His crimes are well documented.


Well and maybe becouse western courts do not belive in this evidence, russia has a long tradition of "preparing" evidence and we as Poles know it better than any other nation...
i.e "Trial of 16" that was a trial of polish underground leaders who lead polish underground during WW2 and russians kidnaped them and tried in moscow for "crimes" against russia... most of them were sentenced and executed... all evidence was "strong" and "documented"




Post it.


Well i do not have them now but i will try to find them.



Saw it, did you? When you were in Chechnya? Got a pic? Share it.

Yepp in tv but also on the photo as far as i remember and it was few years ago so it might be dificult to find..



Yes, well my uncles fathers friend once told me about...

Well read carefuly i spoken to this guy PERSONALLY if you ask, not in russian but mainly in polish, since he is/was (i don't know if he still is) in poland for couple of years so he learned a bit polish and I also understand some russian so we comunicated quite good and this is sad when you see 45-50year old man who is crying when he is talking about his family...



I will not say that brutality has not been committed against civilians by Russian troops, especially in the first war. The circumstances were not good. 18 year old conscripts with access to promodol having to shoot through the bodies of their friends because the chechens used prisoners for cover will lead to bad things.


Well I heard reports about using civilians as a cover from both sides...
i.e as a cover for tanks... but as long as there is no hard evidence...



I also have a video of a Russian amnesty in which Chechens arrive, turn in weapons, recieve medical care, and are released (provided they have not committed attrocities.) Have you got such a tape from the Chechen side? Maybe there is one, hidden amongst all of the throat cutting and disemboweling and IED videos. I just don't have the stomache to search.

I understand that Poland did not fair well under Soviet rule, and if you don't like Russians just say so. But I would be more discriminating about the people I chose for friends.

I don't like russians are you kidding??? I had a russian roommate and he is my good friend I know couple of russians and I like them all, more last year i hired 3 russian employees and they lived in my house before they rented a house on their own... I just don't like russian goverment. Russians just don't have luck to "rulers" 1st tzars then comunists now "democratic" goverment... sorry, unlucky nation to me...



Look at the DOCUMENTED evidence. Even evidence from HRW, etc. The international community can exert pressure on a nation like Russia if there are abuses. What can be done against terrorists? If you look at kavkaz and those other sites and you can still defend your precious chechen terrorists, then I have nothing more to say to you.

I do not defend terrorists but ordinary ppl who suffer from russian imperial ambitions, on both sides, both russian soldiers who died and chechen civils and insurgents who are dead, just becouse russia want to maintin its influence zone...
And yes HRW can exert presure and they did it but russia is simply ignoring this presure... international observers who were in chechenya during "elections" reported that those elections were far from democratic i.e oposition (non kremlin supported) candidates were "advised" to "withdraw or..."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/655962.stm
on this link i like especially:

"With evidence like this
there should be no more
pussyfooting around by
the international community"

Human Rights Watch spokeswoman

or maybe this section:

...Many of them had been mutilated. Some were wrapped in barbed wire. Soldiers are seen throwing one body into the grave from a tank and dragging another behind a truck. ...

GRAPHIC
http://members.lycos.co.uk/islamonrise/chechenya/chechenya1.html
Well those descriptions under them are little untrue i.e those under second picture from the top (they are not burnt but those bodies just were left for some time its's why they are black...) but photos are not fake or unles you prove me that they are fake. note that one f the bodies has a head cut off , not teared of but cut of eith the sharp tool

next gallery:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/russian_atrocities.htm

Hmmm does it look like a mas grave???? or maybe I am wrong and this is birthday party... of course some of the bodies shown on those pictures are bodies of fighters and maybe even "terrorist" but some of the victims shown in above two galeries are to old or too young to be "terrorist"
http://www.robert-fisk.com/chechen_lady.jpg
and some bodies like this one:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/islamonrise/chechenya/23.gif
looks like a rape victim body...

[anonymous individual]

Marmot1's posts are funny to read. There are so many possible holes to flame at them, depending on the POV.

[anonymous individual]

This is the best line from Marmot1


I DO NOT DEFEND MURDERERS who kill POWs but there are also chechens who killed russians in combat and for me this is not a crime especialy when you fight for your independence. US fighted with England during revolution and there was no american nation at this time so you want to call i.e. G WASHINGTON bandits leader??? since they fighted against legitime goverment and it's army

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Russian Texan]

Marmot, what do you do for a living? I am wondering because with this kind of righteous ideas, compassion and high moral standarts you should be traveling the world saving raind forests, fighting AIDS, feeding starving, restoring hope, fighting for justice, etc.. Let's start small: why don't you pack you bags and go to Chechnya - to meet local population and talk to them. I am sure that you'll get mixed feelings about Russian presence there: some people want their kids learn about the world and some people want their kids to learn about "Koran"...
I do understand that small countries/nations like yours do feel compassionate towards other small countries. I also do realise that it is a human nature to percieve a big guy fighting a small one as an instigator...but it's not the case here. The pre-history and history of this conflict was described by me and others on this board several times you just refuse to see things the way they are because of your hereditary dislike for Russia.
As for atrocities like that BMP example - Yes they did happen and they happened more than once but why did they happen? Why there were no no germans pulled apart by T34s during Great Patriotic War? And it was very emotional time for russians... May be it was because USSR was fighting another civilized country and germans never done this to russians anything like that.
Wars in Chechnya were wars with barbarians. I know its hard but try to put yourself in a shoes of a russian soldier who have seen his friends and comrades being killed and mutilated in the most vicious and inhumane ways. How would you react, would you become Mother Theresa?
Yes Russians did things that fall out of "Geneva Convention" but chechens never obide by it in the first place. Things that hapened there would seem horrific/inhumane to any citizen of a peaceful country but that was not a "Garden of Eden" it was a warzone. If you want to get an idea what it was like, watch a movie called "Purgatory" and you might understand what drove the rage of Russian soldiers a little bit better...

P.S. To all those who are tryiing to make comparisons and draw parallels between Chechnya and Iraq - read this thread again.
US in Iraq = USSR in Afganistan, plain and simple. I know that numbers don't look as good but thats life....

[RomanS]

marmot,

I read your views on the Chechen Conflict, and it really hurts me.

Let me explain to you why, I think, Russia is the right side.

Me, I might not have the combat experience or 20 years with special agencies, but I am an expert in the Ichkerian conflict. I personally spent days with general Genadi Troshev when he was visiting our academy in Perm after the first Chechen war. Hours after hours i picked his brain on this tragedy. A man who lost a close member in the Afgan war, and also droped many pints of his own blood, was one of our best generals.

He loves Russia, and like me would give his head for her. He lvoed it in me, and was willing to share all the truth about the conflict. My goal was to prevent a future disaster like Grozny, Yarish Mardi and Bamut. My higher ups trusted me too. And saw my patriotic heart with a great attention.

I knew there was gonna be another war with the "aborigens", I knew we were going back to finish the nasty "alah akbarovzev". I've seen the face of Yandarbiev at the table next to general Lebed in Hasavurt. I knew that this was a break, not an end of a war.

West declared it as humiliation of Russian military, and the chechens became braver. Which is not a good thing.

Do you really know why the first Chechen war began? The roots of the conflict grow all the way into the late 80's. Many big Soviet "legal" (vor v zakone) criminals knew who really controlled the capitalistic business in Russia. It was also clear to our types - the pro-government pro-law. Organized Crime in Soviet Union and the corruption caused the end of Red Star and Iron. Add a table spoon of high casualties in Afghanistan, and you have a great reciepe to start a revolution.

Since the early 60's, the Kavkaz born criminal leaders were ruling the economy in Soviet Union. Azerbajanies, Armenians, Ingushi, Gruzini - Stalin is a good example. They were always brutal and considered as "hot temper" people. They would get pissed way too fast, and would not think about their consicuences. The Kavkaz history was bulit on blood, even before Stalin ordered Beriya to send them to Siberia.

The Slavs were always careful with the "hachi" "abreki" "shakali" since the early 1600's. Ivan Grozny himself was affraid of them.

Their culture is based on family lines called "Teipi". Kind of like modern Gambinos, Bonanos, Luichezes. Accept they would have a lot more blood line families involved with the "teips".

Slavs had to negotiate with them only at parties, and happy events. Because if you piss them off, they would easaly get insanely mad or blood thirsty nasty with their knives.

They always had passions for "cold steel". They sharpened them almost as much as Japanese did their kitanas. I mean their culinary and cuisne is based on slaughtering lamb for your guest, while cutting it's head off and sticking it on the stick for "respect".

In other words, we "Slavs" are some hardcore brave mother ****ers, but we tried hard not to piss off the "allah types" as much as possible. We knew that they had hot hearts, and were ready to slit anyone's throat if you disrespect them.

The Allah, and God was really not much of a problem back then. The Chechens, Azeris and Tadjiks didn't use the Allah as their shield. They didn't need to, because those who didn't agree with them would be joining the lamb "shashlik" for dinner. Stretched out on the plate, not enjoying it.

As much as they loved lamb and lavash, they still understood that to have that on the table, you have to have cash to enjoy the goods. Moscow was a great place to make quick cash and feed your teip in Urus-Martan, or Mahachkala.

Now when hundreds of teip leaders found themselves in Moscow making money, they were of cource targeted by Slavs. Or Russian Mafia, if we move to the modern days.

Chechens got together and formed their own "organizatsiya" I studied plenty of the Chechen, Osetin families controlling show business tax, and markets with fresh fruits in Moscow and St.Petersburg. The business in the 80's was so good, they started opening companies for Oil and mineral materials factories. Russian government officials loved that ****. They pocketed lots of cash from the Kavkaz businessmen in their days, and never shared with their Slav money makers. So that sparked a hot fire in the pot.

The Russian mafia started to loose respect during the latest 80's. Chechen mafia was known to be the strongest, most brutal and the bloodiest criminal organization in Russia. Moscow turned into their hometown.

After the dumb ****in adidas and gold chain wearing Russian "brothers" stoped doing drugs, and drinking rivers of vodka. They realised that this wasn't working out for our majority (the slavs) in the major cities.

Higher prices on market goods, rude behavior through out the cities by Kavkaz-Russians, and disturbing methods of dealing with their enemies. That included beheading, amputalation of important body parts, and ritualistic satanic vendettas.

Boris "the proof" Yeltsin (alchohol type A positive) thought that was a mess. DUH , ****in D U H. We warned the kremlin leaders for 26 years about danger from the Kavkaz regions.

But none thought it was a real threat. Of course when you take a weekly paycheck from the ****ers to shut the **** up. The corrputed Russian government started this so called mess. Too bad the Russian forces weren't used as much in the Karabah Conflict. Otherwise, the Chechnya would be still, a great holiday city between the seas today.

It was. Alwasy was. I was 13 years old, when I went to visit the Suhumi-Adler-Mahachkala-Grozny "kurort" tourist spots. The gorgeous Mahachkala with the best watermelons, and the train from Prohladnii-Mineralnie Vodi-Grozni, where they would serve lavash with lamb"peremets" in between train stations.

The people were always nice, and were so damn friendly, that you always felt loved in there. I never forget the older man in the "shashlichnaya" cafe on Katayama street in Grozny, where in 1994 Maikop brigade lost most of their soldiers in the fire fight.

The old man tolled me - "Chechens! Are you best friends in the world..... But they also can be your worst enemies if you piss them off.
I will never forget this line. Because it got me even then, when i was just 13. I heared the urban tales, and scary stories about Chechen students of religion.

I couldn't imagine what would of happen if the region decides to separate from us through out a bloody war.
I knew how strong, and psycho they were. The smell of fresh blood turned them on, and made them crazier. It's in their religion for Christs sake.

It happened. It ****in did! October 1991 when the Russian mafia started a war against Chechen mafia. The conflict grew so strongly, the government members were quickly involved and found themselves in ****ty positions. They couldn't just simply get rid of all the Kavkaz famileis from Russian territories, and announce Chechnya as it's own country.

Ukraine, Belorus, Baltic states, and other STANS were always separate from Russia before the Union of Red Blood. Lenin, Stalin put a leash on those territories and ****ounced them to be USSR.

There was never such a country or republic of Chechnya. There was however in example Osetina, Kabardino -Balkaria, Ingushetia. Chechnya was a district of Ingushkoi Respubliki.

The Chechens suddenly became very separate like only in the mid 1990's. MY friend, Chechen teipi were not happy with some of the fanatic leaders in their organized family.

Russian mafia gave a big kick to the Chechen and other Kavkaz families real quick after the collapse of Soviet Union. The "bald bratva" came to us for help. MVD, FSB, RUOP, SOBR, OMON ...

They all needed help to fight the new money making enemy. ANd we did help them. Some of our older in charge "GOD BLESS" them, also saw the problem with Kavkaz taking over our people's money. We stepped in, and pushed the bloody wolves back to their mountains.

Chechens knew that if they fight us on our territory they would loose. So they had bring us to them, and the best way to do this would be "separatism".

I've been studying the Soviet separatism since the Karabah.

By the way, did you know that Ruslan Gelaev was fighting on the Azerbaijan side of the Nagorno-Karabah conflict? I studied his bigography for long time.

When you attend MVD academy, and add a dose of patriotism for your country, you suddenly get into the potential threat's brain with a lot more interest.

But that sick **** personally executed over 20 Georgian born protectors of Armenia. He cut their heads of in front of their families. And that I might add was before the Chechen wars.

There were many other great leaders of Chechnya that started this "satanic style separatism" from the remote locations in Armenia, Azebradjan and Osetia. They gathered believers, and followers to stand up against the Russians.

It was a great deal to them. I mean they jsut got bitch slapped by the Russian Slavs in the organized crime world. So instead of backing out, and doing business from home, they wanted to cause a big trouble.

Russian "organizations" gave them a chance to go back to their Gudermes, and Shali, and just run **** from there. Open the casinos, bars, auto services - make money. It is now legal to have "supply and demand" style economy. There was no Soviet Union "everyone the same" bull ****.

But even this economy-101 required brains, and tallents. They didn't have the education in economics or business. They only knew how to collect and cut. Its written on their history my friends.

The new leaders thought it was ok to kidnap, and ask for ransom. They knew it was fine to sell a women as a slave. They knew it was normal to sell drugs and weapons for a good price.

The godfathers of the families thought it would be also cool to run for politics of Chechnya. When in 1990 a bunch of teips got together and thought that they can push the remaining commies, and elect their own leader of the country.

They forgot that there was already a legal leader. His name was Boris Yeltsin. As much of a dumb drunk **** he was, he still was a president of my Russian Federation. Please respect that.

Chechens organized crime leaders didn't want to. They knew they can make their own cash, and feed the families with dirty money. However they never thought about their people. The other Chechens that were part of Russian Federation.

To fix this problem the Chechen elected general of the Soviet Air Forces of Ingushetia Djohar Dudaev brought up a good ol tactic that was used way before Sun Tzu.

religion ... is a very strong weapon. He used it to boost a morale for his own support.

Allah is the only way to live. Allah is the only god. We are surrounded by the Christian, Catholic and Jewish satans. We shall fight the holly war against the infidels. - were his exact words in the 1991 speach at the presidental palace in Grozny.

Those who didn't agree with him were simply executed. Dudaev gained strength. Suddenly the brutal regime and sencless rules of shariat were brought back in there.

Sorry, but during the Soviet Union, Chechen women had equal rights with men. There was no head cutting rituals in the families for stealing a goat. There was no stoning or amputalation of body parts of infidels.

It came back. Right when the forced Chechen people were asking for independance. President Yeltsin tried to calm the animals down. Why kill a women when she was raped by some thug? It is not her fault. You have to look for the rapist.

Simple questions, and rule of life was suggested to Chechens for peaceful living. Yeltsin didn't want the stone age to be back in the region. We are civilized people today, don't you ****in agree? We don't want to stop watching TV, enjoy music and video games, movies and ****o magazines. We love it, because we have a right to be freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

What kind of a freedom is "SLAVERY, KIDNAPING, WOMEN DISCRIMINATION, VIOLENCE TOWARDS OTHER RELIGIONS????????????

Despite the beef between Chechen and Russian mafia, Chechen corrupted and early corrupted Russian government - I WILL STAND MY CHEST, AND PUT MY HEAD ON THE TABLE - for the freedom of my people.

80% of the Russian soldiers, MVD officers, and Spetsnaz operators were thinking the same way. We will not let the animals take control of the people in their preverted religion!!! We will not let them descriminate our beautiful females, and we sure will not let them cut off heads of non-believers.

We entered the region to preserve this peace. And keep the negative energy from the leaders. We all lived in peace and so called harmony with those guys. We all had children, and we children came there to stop the shariat satanic bull****.

The bandits fired on us.

And we fired back. Yes, we too had worst ****in scum bags like Pavel Grachev, and mister Chernomyrdin. Who thought it would be cool to leave all the weapons for the new wahabbi government of Chechnya, or to drop a parachute regiment in the middle of a fire.

**** those assholes. Put them aside.

We fired shots back at those who fired at us. Russia, as I remember was always invaded and shot at. RUSKIE always always always tried to follow our rule.

"S mechem pridesh, ot mechya i pogibnish" - Aleksandr Nevski

"if you come with a sword, you will die by the sword"

It takes some effort to piss us off. It is very hard to piss Russians off. But once you do it, we will not ****in stop.

Chechens fired at us when we came there to evacuate our SLAV non-muslim people out of Grozny.

March of 1994, our OMON from Sverdlovsk, and Perm came to help the MCHS workers, to evacuate the Russian Orthodox Christians out of Grozny. Our guys were not the first ones, or the last...

This **** couldn't go on anymore. It was time to bring the dogs out, and something with more armour.

The fire fight begins.

In December 30th, 1994 our forces recieve a "go" to put down the armed civilians in the middle of Grozny. The wahabis and Dudaevtsi were taking over the city.

Ministery of Defence along with the internal forces of MVD entered the city on December 31st 1994. Our guys were thinking of their wifes, children, girlfriends, mothers, sister and brothers when they were driving to preserve a democratic peace in Grozny on New YEAR's EVE.

Their families were drinking champagne, and wishing the best for the whole region, for their fathers, brothers, husbands, sons , and friends.
The Chechen "separatists" used the civilians to block the streets in Grozny.

Cease Fire, Cease Fire, "mirnie"(civilians) on the road screamed the radio in the tank. As the T-72's and T-80s whistiled by the main road on Staropromislovskoe shosse near the peacful civilians in Grozny.

20 minutes later, thousands of our soldiers were burning, and melting with the stell armour on the streets of Minutka, and Oktyabrskaya.

The serparatists fired RPGs, PTURs, and PKMs from the roofs, windows, and basements. They slaughtered our forces enetering the city with stanta clause helmets, celebrating new year.

The rest of the war, I don't need to write here. I wasnt' participating in it with my brothers. But I do know a lot of storries and saw the videos. Crusified RUssian soldiers, dead civilians on the street, beheaded 18 year old OMON cadets, dead locals from the artillery support......

I came here in America after the first Chechen war.

I admired this place since the early 80s. When I first saw the Star Wars, and a very special movie that changed my view on america called "ENEMY MINE"

It was made in America, and was shown to us in Soviet Union. I cried, and my mom tolled me that USA and Russia should unite together to have eternal peace.

I studied the American history as well, and was facinated by AMerica.
But not untill I met her people here like Undo, and other great AMERICANS that showed me the real freedom.

And i will ****in die for them, and for their families. Just like my brothers died for Russia fighting against Bearded Animals.........

[George W. Bush]

That's beautiful :D

[Midav]

Ok, so I'm not garnering any replies. That's cool. If people think I'm a freak, that's your right. If you think I'm correct and don't want to openly agree, that's your right.

Hey sometimes to stop a fire, you have to start another fire.

Am I in the military? Nope. I was rejected due to medical reason. However, I took the asvab, I passed with a pretty damn good grade and yeah, I tried people.

I don't know if I could actually do as to what I posted in here. Am I anti muslim? Hell no. Met many great muslim people and think they are good people for the most part.

However, if I see someone yelling "alahu ackbar" and thinks I should die because I am of western origin, most noticeably American, hey, you as a person mean nothing to me.

I will defend myself and if it means stopping others from doing the same, I see no problem stuffing the dead body with pig intestines and tearing it up.

As said, sometimes to stop a fire, you have to start another fire.

[khukuri]

What are you, about 10 years old? Maybe 13? Perhaps after you acquaint yourself more fully with the world you can post your opinion here and it will not be laughed at.


good argument, no im not ten and yes a'ive served in the army




First, no one in this thread said the chechen terrorists were cowards, in fact, it has been said that they are tough fighters. So your first point is total BS.


Read the whole post moron



Second, you clearly have never served a day in your life and have no idea about how the world works. If you have a tank, you use it. To do otherwise is just stupid. Fortunately, militaries are not subject to whatever defines "bravery" for an adolescent like yourself. It is tactically unsound. By your definition every army that has won a war has been cowardly.


Yes I think its ridicilus if the russians abandonden their tanks or whatever. What I was trying to say that its stupid to call the chechens for cowards, which many here have said because of the tactics they use. Because if were going to use the terms brave ways of warfare, why dont the russian guys that call the chechens for cowards abandonden the supreiority in form of tanks and all that stuff end meet them many y mano. I was trying to show how stupid a discussion about bravery is.



Third, if you are so brave, come and say those things you said in person to Permskii, 16Obr, RussianTexan, or myself. Heck, say them to anyone in or formerly in any military in the world. At best they will roll their eyes at you, but I think you would get a more hostile reaction.


Trust me I would, ive done that to many other russians ive met that called the chechens cowards




And last, yes, it is up to the Russians to say the war is over. A nation against 1400 or so terrorists is not a war. There is no nation of Chechnya to be at war with. There is a government of Chechnya, which is part of the Russian Federation, with elected representatives (don't start). The Russians are trying to restore order and civilization to this region after the terrorist and fanatics destroyed it. A militia somewhere in Oklahoma might say they are at war with the US, too, but that doesn't make it so. They, too, are just criminals and bandits.


Yes you just have about 40.000 soilders at same place and its not war

[khukuri]

Listen kid, why don't you stick to some subjects you know about? Care to f*** bring up your "wise" thoughts about how to fight in Chechnya?

Otherwise don't f*** disrespect our country and our soldiers! Our soldiers did heroic things, where a f*** bitch like you would call for mommy!

f*** you, ****head!

To the others on this forum: I'm sorry guys, this is the first time, someone really pissed me off on this forum!


well this makes you look very mature

[George W. Bush]

he's just mad at you because you show no intelligence

[UkrainianAmerican]

Incredible post PermskiiOMON! woot
I learned a lot about the region that I never knew before from it.
Do you mind if I print it out (with your credentials) and show it to a couple of my friends?

[RomanS]

Go right ahead.

[khukuri]

he's just mad at you because you show no intelligence

I what way am I not showing intelligence when I am writing about how inconsistent it is when saying chechens are cowards when they themselfs(russians) enjoy superior military capacity (armoured, helos ...) which the chechens dont.

[anonymous individual]

That post was inspiring, and extreme informative unlike others posted on this thread. Thank you for taken the time to write it and sharing in here, PermskiiOMON. woot

[anonymous individual]

he's just mad at you because you show no intelligence

I what way am I not showing intelligence when I am writing about how inconsistent it is when saying chechens are cowards when they themselfs(russians) enjoy superior military capacity (armoured, helos ...) which the chechens dont.

An example of what your wrote that shows no sign of intelligence:
Yes you just have about 40.000 soilders at same place and its not war

Believe me I read all your posts so don't give me that
Read the whole post moron

excuses. Thank you.

[Russian Texan]

Молодец мужик, правильно написал. Спасибо тебе.

[khukuri]

First of all, i wrote that after his respond clever, second of all that wasent what he commented, he ment about the braver **** i wrote

An example of what your wrote that shows no sign of intelligence:


Believe me I read all your posts so don't give me that


what you wrote earlyer


First, no one in this thread said the chechen terrorists were cowards, in fact, it has been said that they are tough fighters. So your first point is total BS.

Apperently you havent read the whole thread.

And no I dont really care about a small thing like that, calling chechens for cowards It was just a thing i thought were inconsiqient and bs which i chose to comment.

[GazB]

"But what do these people themselves think about it."

I am guessing the Chechen majority that are helping the Russia forces want to remain russian. Those with carbombs and roadside bombs don't.

"I dont like both. The muslims propably less."

Is it because when they got what they wanted they kept killing?

"Russia is something that waits and waits ,until something is weak enough, then it tries to eat the something without mercy"

Certainly is a view of many in the west, but tell me, if it was such a beast why does it currently owe so much money to former Communist countries... why is there such a thing as former european communist countries? Why are the countries of the former soviet union labelled FORMER? Why isn't mongolia part of siberia? It is amusing... how Russia can be so evil and land grabbing when countries in Europe possesed half the world for quite some time, yet they are leaders of the civilised western world...

"If they kill our innocent people, we kill their in the random way. But twice in a row."

I don't think the Nazi method of reprisal killings would work. Killing those guilty is OK, but not at random in reprisal.

"Those who say that Americans would have done a much better job in Chechnya are very incompetent. If someone wants to prove the opposite, be my guest. "

The problem is that most in the west don't appreciate that the Soviet Union operates a system of conscription. Almost every Chechen male has been trained in that same army that was sent to deal with them. They had full access to almost all the same weapons and equipment. I very much doubt any armed force could do better.

"Ahmed Zakaev- Well maybe for you he is a bllody killer but he is currently in europe and all countries refused to pass him to russia for trial so I thin that only in russia he is terrorist and rest of europe has diferent opinion... "

And in argentina there are probably lots of ex nazis who therefore must be innocent too... if Argentina will not return them.

"Those soliders were totaly drunk, as this man reported to me and they (those chechen man and his family) only survived this "search" becouse regular infantry from draft come to this village and defended civilians against those ANIMALS in russian uniforms. "

And if it had been Chechens dressed up as Russians who would have saved them then? I doubt other chechen rebels would have. A few US soldiers got drunk or high on drugs and killed the wrong people in Vietnam... who is to blame? Those who make mistakes certainly have to carry some blame but those who start the war must also shoulder some responsibility too.

"this "voting" miracle is comon in russia.. sorry but if you are cheating in elections how you are bringing democracy and civilisation to them???"

They are Russian troops currently stationed in Chechnia... if there was no war on they would get a vote there. Just like if California wanted independance and the US sent some national guard troops to stop any fighting they, as american citizens would get a vote in their own country.

"It's funny when Russians try to point at Iraq when Americans point to Chechnyia. We have had only 350 KIA, how many KIA has Russia had in the TINY, PUNY, PATHETICLY SMALL country?"

Which Russians are pointing at Iraq?

"US fighted with England during revolution and there was no american nation"

The American nation had already been concoured by the European settlers and will never exist again except on small reservations and in some Casinos.

The Jewish nation exists now because it was recreated by force of arms. the Chechens had a nation but they chose to invade neighbouring countries and now they have been "invaded again".

Can't see the Kurds getting autonomy either... they might get northern iraq but Turkey and Iran will continue to not hand back land.

"I do not defend terrorists but ordinary ppl who suffer from russian imperial ambitions,"

Imperial ambitions? The Russians invaded in the 1990s when Chechnia became a ****hole. They invaded again when that newly independant ****hole started spreading its misery. It is not like they were expanding the empire... if it was then they would certainly be bombing the **** out of the Argun gorge in Georgia as well.

In comparison to the actions of the west in the last few years the Russians have been very quiet. They didn't have to let Eastern Europe change sides to NATO you know... they could have bombed the crap out of East Germany before the wall came down and had large urban shooting competitions... extra points if they are wearing jeans or holding a banner sort of thing.

"Yes you just have about 40.000 soilders at same place and its not war"

Considering the size of the republic and the nature of lawlessness in the region... being a border area I would actually expect to see rather more troops there.

"yeah and who shelled and bombed GROZNY and other cities??? not chechens "

Actually the Russians drove into Grozny in their vehicles the first time and were slaughtered. All the streets had been altered with roadblocks to channel armour and create ideal ambush points. It was a city ready for war. Now if there were some innocent civilians there perhaps that was their fault don't you think? the only way to deal with urban areas that are so well prepared is to level the playing field... litterally.

"If your army tolerate raping, murdering, and bulgary so you are no better than chechens.... and maybe they learned this from your army (remember 1st chechen war??? there were russian POWs in chehen hands and they were returned home and now chechens do not take POWs... my question is WHY??? maybe becouse they attitude changed becouse russian attitude changed also..) "

The Chechens were committing atrocities well before the Russians went in. Don't try to blame the Russians for that. Several New Zealanders working for Telecommunications companies had their heads cut off and bodies left in a ditch when the ransome wasn't paid... Exactly what did the New Zealand government do to Chechnia?

"Why no nation becouse they were conquered by russians.... and maybe there is no kurdish nation for you becouse they are divided betwen turkey,iran,iraq and syria and maybe there is no jewish nation since there was no israeli state for almost 2000 years... "

Currently there is a Jewish nation.. there is no Chechen nation, nor is there an ayrian nation, nor an American Indian nation.

"I DO NOT DEFEND MURDERERS who kill POWs but there are also chechens who killed russians in combat"

Hahahaha... what does that mean? Russians have killed Chechens in combat therefore by your logic you should be supporting them? Or is it the case that only drunk russian soldiers exist. Adopting the tactics of the enemy to instill fear is a legitimate tactic. The bombing raids carried out by the allies over Germany and Japan violated many laws of war... the intentional targetting of civilians... Dresden, Tokyo, Berlin, all firebombed at greater human cost than Hiroshima and Nagasaki in pure numbers and they weren't bombed for their military significance... but in revenge in attacks on London. No war crimes tribunal... they won.

"I what way am I not showing intelligence when I am writing about how inconsistent it is when saying chechens are cowards when they themselfs(russians) enjoy superior military capacity (armoured, helos ...) which the chechens dont."

Well perhaps before you point out your genius how about you point out who stated the Chechens were cowards and check the context in which it was said. For instance if someone called them cowards for not reducing civilian losses or picking easy targets, that would have nothing to do with whether the Russians rode in tanks or helos or not.

[anonymous individual]

Sorry, but I have. Maybe next time you write, please write it more clearly. Thank you.

[anonymous individual]

what you wrote earlyer

??? That does not make sense. Could you clarify it?

[Uninen]

It's funny when Russians try to point at Iraq when Americans point to Chechnyia. We have had only 350 KIA, how many KIA has Russia had in the TINY, PUNY, PATHETICLY SMALL country?

Are you retard?

:cantbeli:

Chechens are willing and able, most of their troops and commanders have been in Soviet military.

(examble: Dudajev, their 'past president' was A Colonel in Soviet stratigic air forces.. and they had many ex-Soviet professianals among them, and even some Russian ex-Soviet spetsnaz fought along Chechen side..)

Chechen forces best compared to French foreign legion or to USMC.. although i feel that they outclassed USMC..

:cantbeli:

Iraqis are not willing, nor able..

Iraqis best compare to Somalis..

:petting:

[perdurabo]

Why there were no no germans pulled apart by T34s during Great Patriotic War? And it was very emotional time for russians... May be it was because USSR was fighting another civilized country and germans never done this to russians anything like that.

Mate sorry you are wrong it did happened in 2WW like rapeing german womens etc
germans in 2ww as civilized nation? :) yup those raging bandits setting up almoust every thing beatwin Wisła and Moscow :]
russians in 2ww did meany war crimes too
sorry to all but this thing is caled WAR it's not niece no honor no morality just plain madness...

Ah and i dont support any of sides prabably both are as good as they can in making other side die. War is war.

[Russian Texan]

Who said anything about raping?
Can you give me a documented example of germans being ripped apart by T34s?
So by your logic any nations that goes to war is not civilized, right?
Here is an example for you: Roman empire vs Barbarian tribes

[RomanS]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/01/wafgh01.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/02/01/ixportal.html

Please read the 4th parragraph.

[Marmot1]

It's funny when Russians try to point at Iraq when Americans point to Chechnyia. We have had only 350 KIA, how many KIA has Russia had in the TINY, PUNY, PATHETICLY SMALL country?

Are you retard?

:cantbeli:

Chechens are willing and able, most of their troops and commanders have been in Soviet military.

(examble: Dudajev, their 'past president' was A Colonel in Soviet stratigic air forces.. and they had many ex-Soviet professianals among them, and even some Russian ex-Soviet spetsnaz fought along Chechen side..)

Chechen forces best compared to French foreign legion or to USMC.. although i feel that they outclassed USMC..

:cantbeli:

Iraqis are not willing, nor able..

Iraqis best compare to Somalis..

:petting:

What????!!! somalis???? hey they have 8 years experience from 1980-1988 then 1991 Desert storm but before, 1990 invasion on kuwait, also fight with kurds, shiite oposition and US during no fly zones... they just do not wanted to support regime and they knew that this war is lost but they fighted quite fiercely with iran when there was chance to win and they conducted many succesfull operations and i.e. in Nassiriya where they had a will or were forced to fight by commanders a lot of marines died...
Also look what is going on now every day one or more us soldiers die...

and somalis.... well remember 1993??? after bloodbath US withdrawn, of course somails lost a lot of ppl but compare equipment and training of both sides ant that there is no education nor army nor goverment they performed quite well...

P.S Dudayev was a general not colonel...

But I agree that chechens are very good trained,also there is a lot of mercenaies from other countries... there were even a couple of polish ppl who fighted there, one of them was a sniper during 1st chechen war...

[Uninen]

Well,

I kinda remembered as soon as i posted that 'damn.. wasnt he a General..'

But i wasnt sure..

Makes my point even more solid..

Their leader was General on the one of the most if not THE most elite units of USSR.

(Nuclear forces, task nuke USA..)

And my point about Iraqis..

They hadnt and still dont have any real idea how modern wars are fought.

As even during Iran-Iraq, their 'professianal forces' were overrun by children tied together by ropes, and that were forced to fight..

:bash:

Only operation that Iraqs forces have ever performed with anykind of sophistication was Invasion of Kuwait..

Rest of their ops make ww1 to look as modern..

:slap:

[perdurabo]

Who said anything about raping?
Can you give me a documented example of germans being ripped apart by T34s?
So by your logic any nations that goes to war is not civilized, right?
Here is an example for you: Roman empire vs Barbarian tribes
i dont have documenst about ripping apart but i've seen meany pics of germans being "trampled" by tanks but also americans etc... it isn't assault on you or any other it's normal way of war
There is nothing about beeing civilized in war. If you look at Roman empire wars you will see that they also raped, murdered civilians etc. look at the beginings of christianity and how they threated Jews. Look how wikgings or indians where christianized. How spanish troops acted in south america, english in north, even polish troops in russia or ukraine (17th cent.) or russian troops in poland(XIX cent.).
things you call "civilization" is technical advance only.
what side where more civilized nativ americans or english/european colonizators? (and later americans) yup colonizators/americans where more advenced technically but their culture where higher?
What culture is higher Polish with Chopin or Russian with Tshaykovsky?(sp?) British with Bayron or German with Goethe?.... :)

[Uninen]

You do know that American soldiers are also doing these things.. did during ww1, ww2, Korea and Nam.. and even still today.. in Afganistan and in Iraq..

(In Afganistan, when they have mustered enough courage to even step out side base perimiter..)

:fork:

[Herrmannek]

You do know that American soldiers are also doing these things.. did during ww1, ww2, Korea and Nam.. and even still today.. in Afganistan and in Iraq..

(In Afganistan, when they have mustered enough courage to even step out side base perimiter..)

:fork:

I think we mistake rules with exceptions...

[ST4]

In the first one, chechen terrorists dress up in Russian uniforms and attack some poor and unguarded block-post.
http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/checkpoint.wmv

This one, is destruction of vehicles on the road in July 2003. Notice the civilian traffic. But animals don't care about their own people.

http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/podryvy20.wmv

Video link doesnt work

[George W. Bush]

That could mean Kavkaz center is down or they blocked this host from downloading by link. Hopefully it's the former.

[Sergei]

another victim of kavkazcenter

marmot
why don't you go to Chechnya, and help them out. Seriously see what happens. Come there, tell them you hate the Russian invaders, imperialism, and you want to help the poor innocent chechens.

However before you go, go to your metal work shop in Poland, and ask for a custom neck cover. And make sure they weld it very good on your throat. This should help in negotiations with Chechens.

Be careful, they don't speak "peacfully", they don't know how.

in other words - go f*** yourself asshole.

Greetings, PermOMON.

I think, you are paying too much attention to some 13-year old jerks who seem to pollute this forum and have nothing to contribute.
Moreover, offering the guy to go to Chechnya is highly unethical, since they will kill the poor sob once he shows up there.
Take it easy and continue posting that great stuff of yours. Me and the other mature people on this forum are greatly appreciating the content that you are contributing.

regards,
Sergei

[ST4]

No operation is similar. Each operation is significant in its own way.

Those who say that Americans would have done a much better job in Chechnya are very incompetent. If someone wants to prove the opposite, be my guest.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Those Chechen Rebels havn't fought the Teams... that is if the Rebels were to actually fire a shot at them. :D

Anyway, where can I find photos of Spetsnaz in Chechnya and Afghanistan?

[Uninen]

I think we mistake rules with exceptions...

Its not like the Russians either are under orders to do crimes..

:slap:

And most of the reported incedents are propaganda from terrorists, without any reality base..

:cantbeli:

[Marmot1]

I think we mistake rules with exceptions...

Its not like the Russians either are under orders to do crimes..

:slap:

And most of the reported incedents are propaganda from terrorists, without any reality base..

:cantbeli:

Yep bit if it's not investigated then it's suspicious... and remember war in chechenya is almost 10y now and only one solidier was sentenced... sorry but usualy crime rate in war zones is higher than 0 (sorry 1).

[Uninen]

1 in civilian court that is..

Its not like Russias armed forces make public what happens in military courts..

Just like US Army trys to keep those incedents 'unseen' or 'silent'..

;)

[Javehn]

Marmot . A collonel Budanov , commander of 160 Tank brigade , was sentenced on murder of Russian Federation civillians , because he killed a Chechen fighters !! Now , i don't know the full story behind it , but how do you call it ?

[16 OBr SpN]

No operation is similar. Each operation is significant in its own way.

Those who say that Americans would have done a much better job in Chechnya are very incompetent. If someone wants to prove the opposite, be my guest.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Those Chechen Rebels havn't fought the Teams... that is if the Rebels were to actually fire a shot at them. :D

Anyway, where can I find photos of Spetsnaz in Chechnya and Afghanistan?

I think you really misunderstood my point. I was talking about military tactics which Americans could be using in Chechnya.

Tell me, what would those "Teams" do in Chechnya, which our guys would not be able to do??

One example:
How do you see the "Team" storming a 4-story building in the downtown Grozny, surrounded by hostile forces, with enemy snipers operating everywhere; machinegun + grenade launcher positions overlooking approach paths; and enemy forces in each and every ****ing corner??

I personally went through those kind of situations during 1st chechen war, and it was HELL! We sometimes, were literally walking through streets filled with burning tanks and APC's; corpses; and whistling bullets! Some people were "catching" those bullets right in front of my eyes!

Do you want to tell me that the guys from "Teams" are bulletproof?? :roll:

As for the photos, there are pics which were posted by PermskiiOMON, and one by me in the "Pictures" part of this forum.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Uninen]

How do you see the "Team" storming a 4-story building in the downtown Grozny, surrounded by hostile forces, with enemy snipers operating everywhere; machinegun + grenade launcher positions overlooking approach paths; and enemy forces in each and every f*** corner??

I personally went through those kind of situations during 1st chechen war, and it was HELL! We sometimes, were literally walking through streets filled with burning tanks and APC's; corpses; and whistling bullets! Some people were "catching" those bullets right in front of my eyes!

Ive seen vid of situations like that..

Guy yelling at the radio about have **** load of 200s and 300s (WIA and KIA..) and reguesting fire support, yet he aint getting none..

Army many times 'forgot' the spetsnaz guys in first war..

:(

[16 OBr SpN]

How do you see the "Team" storming a 4-story building in the downtown Grozny, surrounded by hostile forces, with enemy snipers operating everywhere; machinegun + grenade launcher positions overlooking approach paths; and enemy forces in each and every f*** corner??

I personally went through those kind of situations during 1st chechen war, and it was HELL! We sometimes, were literally walking through streets filled with burning tanks and APC's; corpses; and whistling bullets! Some people were "catching" those bullets right in front of my eyes!

Ive seen vid of situations like that..

Guy yelling at the radio about have **** load of 200s and 300s (WIA and KIA..) and reguesting fire support, yet he aint getting none..

Army many times 'forgot' the spetsnaz guys in first war..

:(

I will never forget the day when we were sent to break the blockade of the small infantry unit which was pinned down in one building. I still remember the address "Chehov street, House #38". The guys were mostly 18-19 year old kids with no prior military experience. They held up for more than 2 days, completely surrounded, and being constantly stormed.

Sending tanks to them was just a suicide, so we were sent on foot.

Man, I'll never forget their eyes. When our unit finally broke the circle, there were only 15 of them who survived, and kept on holding that building as ordered. :(

There were so many explosions and shots that I could barely hear anything for the next 4 days.

It was hell on earth. Plain and simple. :(

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[mack pl]

What can i say, its ****in dirty war. Both sides doing many bad things. Russians killing in operations many civil people(maybe not now, because now they dont attacking Grozny), Chechens killing POWs.So, its dirty and bloody war. For me Chechens fighting of freedom. But after 1996, when Szamil Basajew and his comrades(not president Maschadow)started making some islamist country in Chechnya it was end of theirs dreams about independent.If you connected with islamist terrorists, like Osama, you cannot made democratic country(state).It was bad for Chechnya,Szamil Basajew shouldnt dream about islamistic state(sharyt laws etc.).Republic of Chechnya -Ichkerya could be independent only, when some extremists like Szamil wouldnt make some stupid things like attack on Dagestan. It was the primary reason for Russian to damaged chechens state.We should remember, they have some quasi state before 1999.Now, they have new government,Kadyrow(i hope im not mistaken),he is guy who for power will kill all those chechens who still dreaming about autonomy.I say "dream", because its only the dream.Szamil Basajew was the guy who make the biggest mistake in theirs history.He is guilty of ending chechens independs.I dont belive this war will ending soon. Chechens could figt in theirs mountains many years. But Russians never broken theyrs proud. Its mi (maybe weird, but i dont care0 point of view, about this ****in war.im not any pacifist , but **** this war.