16 Obr Spn and Hist2004....your experiences and views please

[Rebel 7]

My question to you guys is this:

In 1983 Ahmad Shah Massoud signed a treaty with the Soviets. There are some who claim (Bruce G. Richardson and General Gromov) that Massoud was in fact working in collobration with the Soviets and not really fighting. They claim that Massoud was staging false offensives against the Soviets from his fortress in Panjshir. What are the experiences you went through (if any) in Panjshir and facing Massoud's group of Mujahideen? In your opinion, was what Richardson and Gromov stated correct? Do you feel that Massoud was an effective resistance leader? What offensives (if any) did you take part in in Panjshir? The 9 major offensives the Soviets conducted in Panjshir...can you describe them (in detail if possible)?

My other question to you guys is this. I often heard stories of mass rape of Afghan civilians, Afghan children being cut to pieces by bayonets, and the utter destruction of animals and crops. Stories of villagers being lined up against the wall and told, "if you believe in God, where is your God now to save you" as they were fired upon and killed. All these brutal acts...and my question is why? Was it anger? Was it frustration?

I am an Afghan (Tajik) and I have many relatives who fought for the Mujahideen and many who fought for Massoud. I also have relatives who fought for the Afghan Army during the time of Amin, Taraki and how they escaped from the army they didn't want to serve in. I will share their stories with you guys if you wish.

I know the Mujahideen were enemies to you guys, but even enemies respect one another in their hearts even though they may slaughter each other on the battlefield.

I would very much appreciate your answers as you both have encountered first hand the situation and war in Afghanistan.

Thanks,
Rebel 7

[Undo]

Welcome. These are interesting questions and I hope that you get good answers.

Are you in the States now?

[Beowulf]

Welcome, I'd love to hear some of your stories. Did you live in Afghanistan, if so, where?

[Rebel 7]

Welcome. These are interesting questions and I hope that you get good answers.

Are you in the States now?

Hello..and thank you for the welcome. Actually I live north of the States, Canada to be exact.

[Rebel 7]

Welcome, I'd love to hear some of your stories. Did you live in Afghanistan, if so, where?

Thank you for the welcome. I actually went to Afghanistan last summer for 3 months. The American soldiers and Afghans get along well except in the South where the Taliban have some support. Overall though, many Afghans I spoke to were happy that the American, ISAF, etc were there to provide security and help rid the nation of the Taliban. During the Taliban retreat from Kabul, many civilians took to the streets and personally took care of some of the Taliban soldiers who had been abandoned by their comrades in the retreat by killing them whatever weapon, tool, rock they could get their hands on. I live in Canada now, but spent the Soviet-Afghan war years in Pakistan and Afghanistan. I have some very exclusive pictures I will post soon once my scanner is up and running.

Lates,
Rebel 7

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Welcome to the forum, I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

P.s. Were in Canada do you live?

[Herrmannek]

Welcome woot

[Haiw]

Welcome to the board. I hope this thread is the start of another wealth of knowledge for us 'bystanders'...

[Undo]

I am eager to see your images and hear your tales.

[DE_Six]

Welcome! I'm looking forward for another intereting thread!

[Falco]

Indeed, this should be interesting. Another insider's view. I'm from Montreal so if your near you could buzz buy mate.

[hist2004]

My question to you guys is this:

In 1983 Ahmad Shah Massoud signed a treaty with the Soviets. There are some who claim (Bruce G. Richardson and General Gromov) that Massoud was in fact working in collobration with the Soviets and not really fighting. They claim that Massoud was staging false offensives against the Soviets from his fortress in Panjshir. What are the experiences you went through (if any) in Panjshir and facing Massoud's group of Mujahideen? In your opinion, was what Richardson and Gromov stated correct? Do you feel that Massoud was an effective resistance leader? What offensives (if any) did you take part in in Panjshir? The 9 major offensives the Soviets conducted in Panjshir...can you describe them (in detail if possible)?

My other question to you guys is this. I often heard stories of mass rape of Afghan civilians, Afghan children being cut to pieces by bayonets, and the utter destruction of animals and crops. Stories of villagers being lined up against the wall and told, "if you believe in God, where is your God now to save you" as they were fired upon and killed. All these brutal acts...and my question is why? Was it anger? Was it frustration?

I am an Afghan (Tajik) and I have many relatives who fought for the Mujahideen and many who fought for Massoud. I also have relatives who fought for the Afghan Army during the time of Amin, Taraki and how they escaped from the army they didn't want to serve in. I will share their stories with you guys if you wish.

I know the Mujahideen were enemies to you guys, but even enemies respect one another in their hearts even though they may slaughter each other on the battlefield.

I would very much appreciate your answers as you both have encountered first hand the situation and war in Afghanistan.

Thanks,
Rebel 7

To Rebel 7

Thanks for your questions, but I can only speak for myself. To begin with, you may have read one of my posts and have drawn some erroneous conclusions. I urge you to read my thread
from the beginning as I explain my background.
As far as Ahmad Shah Massoud is concerned, I can tell you and any readers of this thread that the two authors’ you mentioned have come to the wrong conclusions, and their thesis
has no basis in fact. Massoud was one of the most effective and daring leaders the Resistance
ever produced. Without his leadership and tactical skill, the mujahideen would have suffered
many more reversals then they did. While Massoud did sign some non-aggression pacts with
Soviet forces, these “temporary truces” were quickly broken.
He wasn’t known as the “Lion of Panjshar” for nothing. His accomplishments speak for themselves. Keep in mind, the Taliban assassinated Mossoud 2 days before 9/11. He was
the defacto commander of the Northern Alliance and would have been a serious threat to
their rule once the United States began military operations against the Taliban.
I have a lot of information on the various offenses the Soviets conducted in Panjshar and elsewhere. This topic is very lengthy, and would require a lot of effort to post. I will try to
add information on this subject in my thread, subject to the readers wishing me to do so.
The Soviet-Afghan War caused unimaginable suffering for everyone that was involved. As you read through my thread, you will see that I have remained politically neutral and non-judgmental, because that wasn’t the purpose of starting my thread. I don’t discuss treatment
of civilians or POW’s on any side because of the tragedy that was involved and many readers
of my thread have experienced too much for one lifetime, on both sides of the conflict.
I hope I was able to answer your questions of me (hist2004) to your satisfaction.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[anonymous individual]

Welcome to here. :hug:

[Rebel 7]

My question to you guys is this:

In 1983 Ahmad Shah Massoud signed a treaty with the Soviets. There are some who claim (Bruce G. Richardson and General Gromov) that Massoud was in fact working in collobration with the Soviets and not really fighting. They claim that Massoud was staging false offensives against the Soviets from his fortress in Panjshir. What are the experiences you went through (if any) in Panjshir and facing Massoud's group of Mujahideen? In your opinion, was what Richardson and Gromov stated correct? Do you feel that Massoud was an effective resistance leader? What offensives (if any) did you take part in in Panjshir? The 9 major offensives the Soviets conducted in Panjshir...can you describe them (in detail if possible)?

My other question to you guys is this. I often heard stories of mass rape of Afghan civilians, Afghan children being cut to pieces by bayonets, and the utter destruction of animals and crops. Stories of villagers being lined up against the wall and told, "if you believe in God, where is your God now to save you" as they were fired upon and killed. All these brutal acts...and my question is why? Was it anger? Was it frustration?

I am an Afghan (Tajik) and I have many relatives who fought for the Mujahideen and many who fought for Massoud. I also have relatives who fought for the Afghan Army during the time of Amin, Taraki and how they escaped from the army they didn't want to serve in. I will share their stories with you guys if you wish.

I know the Mujahideen were enemies to you guys, but even enemies respect one another in their hearts even though they may slaughter each other on the battlefield.

I would very much appreciate your answers as you both have encountered first hand the situation and war in Afghanistan.

Thanks,
Rebel 7

To Rebel 7

Thanks for your questions, but I can only speak for myself. To begin with, you may have read one of my posts and have drawn some erroneous conclusions. I urge you to read my thread
from the beginning as I explain my background.
As far as Ahmad Shah Massoud is concerned, I can tell you and any readers of this thread that the two authors’ you mentioned have come to the wrong conclusions, and their thesis
has no basis in fact. Massoud was one of the most effective and daring leaders the Resistance
ever produced. Without his leadership and tactical skill, the mujahideen would have suffered
many more reversals then they did. While Massoud did sign some non-aggression pacts with
Soviet forces, these “temporary truces” were quickly broken.
He wasn’t known as the “Lion of Panjshar” for nothing. His accomplishments speak for themselves. Keep in mind, the Taliban assassinated Mossoud 2 days before 9/11. He was
the defacto commander of the Northern Alliance and would have been a serious threat to
their rule once the United States began military operations against the Taliban.
I have a lot of information on the various offenses the Soviets conducted in Panjshar and elsewhere. This topic is very lengthy, and would require a lot of effort to post. I will try to
add information on this subject in my thread, subject to the readers wishing me to do so.
The Soviet-Afghan War caused unimaginable suffering for everyone that was involved. As you read through my thread, you will see that I have remained politically neutral and non-judgmental, because that wasn’t the purpose of starting my thread. I don’t discuss treatment
of civilians or POW’s on any side because of the tragedy that was involved and many readers
of my thread have experienced too much for one lifetime, on both sides of the conflict.
I hope I was able to answer your questions of me (hist2004) to your satisfaction.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

Thank you. With regards to posting the information of the Soviet offenses in Panjshir, you can send the whole pile of information (it doesn't have to be organized) to my email which is in my user account here if it would easy the task. I know your time is precious, and it is for this reason I don't want you to waste time organizing your collection of information so that it is ready to be posted, but rather to send the pile to me and I'll try organizing it if it isn't too much trouble for you. Thanks once again.

[Rebel 7]

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome. In Afghanistan, many Afghans including myself grew a deep amount of respect for American and ISAF soldiers because of the amount of things they endured to keep security. I remember driving in Kabul and watching ISAF and American soldiers standing on the road in the extreme heat so to provide security. I talked to a few of the soldiers in Chicken Street, Kabul (which is well known for attracting foreign journalists as well as soldiers since the markets in that area sell Afghan antiques) and they were very happy to be in Afghanistan and that they had nothing much to fear in Kabul since all of the residents were very friendly. Many think that Sept. 11, because Osama was operating from Afghanistan, that Afghans supported this man, but what they failed to realize was that he was in Afghanistan by force, and the Afghans were powerless to oust him because the Taliban had 80-90% of the country due to assistance from the terrorist roach nest called Pakistan. What we must realize is that to establish peace in Afghanistan, Pakistan must be confronted and dealt with accordingly. I hope the Americans go into Pakistani terrority and begin a sweep of that region.

[RomanS]

Hey Rebel,
Did you bring your knife ?

Question?

Where the **** did you get all your bull**** storries about Satan (not Soviet) Army killing millions of children, and raping everything that moves ?

[Dmitri]

Afghans were powerless to oust him because the Taliban had 80-90% of the country Why are you separeting Taliban from Afghans? They are not diffeerent, or are you getting ashamed of your own people?

[RomanS]

Dima,
**** him

I can only imagine what our GRU brother from 16 gonna say about this mikey mouse bull****

[Beowulf]

Afghans were powerless to oust him because the Taliban had 80-90% of the country Why are you separeting Taliban from Afghans? They are not diffeerent, or are you getting ashamed of your own people?

B/C he's Tajik, Taliban were mostly Pashtun.

[Dmitri]

I might be wrong about this, but Tajikistan is a whole different ball game. There might be quite a few of them in Afghanistan, but they are not really part of the Afghani population.. :|

[ibstolidude]

I might be wrong about this, but Tajikistan is a whole different ball game. There might be quite a few of them in Afghanistan, but they are not really part of the Afghani population.. :|
How are ethnic Tajik "not really part of the Afghani population"

They consist to roughly 25% of the total population and occupy 1/3 (1/4+) of the country - Particularily in the West. One of the strongest, some may argue the strongest, single warlord in the country is a Tajik.

[Dmitri]

There is a country north of Afghanistan called Tajikistan, people there are called Tajik. Thats where I was coming from.

[ibstolidude]

There is a country north of Afghanistan called Tajikistan, people there are called Tajik. Thats where I was coming from.
I lived and worked in Afghanistan specificly with Tajiks for almost a year. The Tajik ethinic group comprises 25%+ of the population. They have been inhabitants of Afghanistan for 100's of years. That is where I am coming from.


I guess Latinos aren't really part of the American population as there is a latino country to the south.

Gotcha though.

[California Joe]

But do the Tajiks lower their rides esse?

[ibstolidude]

Farking ehhh! Mang!

Perfect for the neighborhood drive-by!


http://www.digitalstar.com/stolidude/images/305655.JPG

[16 OBr SpN]

My question to you guys is this:

In 1983 Ahmad Shah Massoud signed a treaty with the Soviets. There are some who claim (Bruce G. Richardson and General Gromov) that Massoud was in fact working in collobration with the Soviets and not really fighting. They claim that Massoud was staging false offensives against the Soviets from his fortress in Panjshir. What are the experiences you went through (if any) in Panjshir and facing Massoud's group of Mujahideen? In your opinion, was what Richardson and Gromov stated correct? Do you feel that Massoud was an effective resistance leader? What offensives (if any) did you take part in in Panjshir? The 9 major offensives the Soviets conducted in Panjshir...can you describe them (in detail if possible)?

Thanks,
Rebel 7

Ahmad-Shoh was a person with whom we might have discussed things. Unlike other commanders, he had a somewhat clear political stance.
But again, he also was a hostage of the Afghan system. He had many conflicts with the Pashtu commanders. His relations with Rabbani were always tense. He really despised Hekmatiyar.

But there was a certain political pressure from Moscow which denied any possibility of negotiations with Ahmad-Shoh.
I've seen Ahmad-Shoh personally, three times. But it was when he was in Panj-Sher holding off the Taliban. I spent almost 2 weeks in there, teaching his people how to use some of our new "toys".

Yes, we, the "bloody", "evil", "rapist", etc. Russians, were helping Northern Alliance. We gave them: weapons; training; spare parts; fixed the equipment, and even provided the satellite imagery of Taliban positions 24/7. How the hell do you think he held off for so long??

Even then, they had problems with Dustum, and Kamgar; with Rabbany; and others. They couldn't agree on a format of a future government!! My God, they hardly controlled anything, but the ambitions were so, as if they controlled Afghanistan!! :roll:

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[California Joe]

Sweet ride esse.

[16 OBr SpN]

My other question to you guys is this. I often heard stories of mass rape of Afghan civilians, Afghan children being cut to pieces by bayonets, and the utter destruction of animals and crops. Stories of villagers being lined up against the wall and told, "if you believe in God, where is your God now to save you" as they were fired upon and killed. All these brutal acts...and my question is why? Was it anger? Was it frustration?

Animals and crops - yes, there were cases like that. Especially during the dry weather, when a firefight would result in fires on local fields (especially vineyards). Helicopter anti-AA flares were also damaging the crops. As for other "attrocities", I've posted my thoughts in the other thread.


I will share their stories with you guys if you wish.

Please do so. I'm always interested in the stories from the opposite trench. Although be ready for some critique from my side, if I find some questionnable moments. ;)


I know the Mujahideen were enemies to you guys, but even enemies respect one another in their hearts even though they may slaughter each other on the battlefield.

Depends on what do you mean by "respect". Respecting their skills - yes. Respecting them as people - probably not (at least most of them).

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

I might be wrong about this, but Tajikistan is a whole different ball game. There might be quite a few of them in Afghanistan, but they are not really part of the Afghani population.. :|

Sorry for using Russian..

Ну ты, блин, сказал. Таджики одна из основных национальностей в Афганистане. Именно их фарси - язык... ммм... элиты.

[786mine]

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome. In Afghanistan, many Afghans including myself grew a deep amount of respect for American and ISAF soldiers because of the amount of things they endured to keep security. I remember driving in Kabul and watching ISAF and American soldiers standing on the road in the extreme heat so to provide security. I talked to a few of the soldiers in Chicken Street, Kabul (which is well known for attracting foreign journalists as well as soldiers since the markets in that area sell Afghan antiques) and they were very happy to be in Afghanistan and that they had nothing much to fear in Kabul since all of the residents were very friendly. Many think that Sept. 11, because Osama was operating from Afghanistan, that Afghans supported this man, but what they failed to realize was that he was in Afghanistan by force, and the Afghans were powerless to oust him because the Taliban had 80-90% of the country due to assistance from the terrorist roach nest called Pakistan. What we must realize is that to establish peace in Afghanistan, Pakistan must be confronted and dealt with accordingly. I hope the Americans go into Pakistani terrority and begin a sweep of that region.

Hey biatch, don't you have anything better to do than to bad-mouth Pakistan? The Pakistan govt helped your ass while the Russian army invaded you. The Pakistani govt allowed your free access to the sea, through AFT. Still, you remain an ass. Go to Islamabad, see the Aghans there, they live in mansions. Those MF live off the Afghani dope money. They talk sh*t about where they live and when they are asked to leave, they don't want to go back to their "homeland". What BS.

Let me tell you once more, if it were not for Pakistan and the American assistance, your sorry-for-a-country would be a part of "Mother Russia". So shut your pie hole and let me not catch you bad mouthing Pakistan again, unless you have proof/evidence.

[Saranof]

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome. In Afghanistan, many Afghans including myself grew a deep amount of respect for American and ISAF soldiers because of the amount of things they endured to keep security. I remember driving in Kabul and watching ISAF and American soldiers standing on the road in the extreme heat so to provide security. I talked to a few of the soldiers in Chicken Street, Kabul (which is well known for attracting foreign journalists as well as soldiers since the markets in that area sell Afghan antiques) and they were very happy to be in Afghanistan and that they had nothing much to fear in Kabul since all of the residents were very friendly. Many think that Sept. 11, because Osama was operating from Afghanistan, that Afghans supported this man, but what they failed to realize was that he was in Afghanistan by force, and the Afghans were powerless to oust him because the Taliban had 80-90% of the country due to assistance from the terrorist roach nest called Pakistan. What we must realize is that to establish peace in Afghanistan, Pakistan must be confronted and dealt with accordingly. I hope the Americans go into Pakistani terrority and begin a sweep of that region.

Hey biatch, don't you have anything better to do than to bad-mouth Pakistan? The Pakistan govt helped your ass while the Russian army invaded you. The Pakistani govt allowed your free access to the sea, through AFT. Still, you remain an ass. Go to Islamabad, see the Aghans there, they live in mansions. Those MF live off the Afghani dope money. They talk sh*t about where they live and when they are asked to leave, they don't want to go back to their "homeland". What BS.

Let me tell you once more, if it were not for Pakistan and the American assistance, your sorry-for-a-country would be a part of "Mother Russia". So shut your pie hole and let me not catch you bad mouthing Pakistan again, unless you have proof/evidence.

and some might say, shut your ****in' mouth if you can't say anything constructive in a orderly manner.



Go to Islamabad, see the Aghans there, they live in mansions.

Have you been there?

[TarwarWarrior]

Uhhh, this conversation ended like, in February guys.. And I am pretty sure that Rebel7 is long gone. Talk about re-opening old wounds. Let it go.

786mine, I don't know what your damage is but you have posted 47 times since joining us YESTERDAY. All of your posts are from topics long since covered - some going back to October of 2003! Get a grip man!

Your posts have a serious acid tongue to them as well. It won't get you very far here at all or for very long. If you want to contrubute then great but if all you are about is flaming people then take your crap elsewhere. This dysfunctional family has enough problem children already.

-TW, out!-

[786mine]

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome. In Afghanistan, many Afghans including myself grew a deep amount of respect for American and ISAF soldiers because of the amount of things they endured to keep security. I remember driving in Kabul and watching ISAF and American soldiers standing on the road in the extreme heat so to provide security. I talked to a few of the soldiers in Chicken Street, Kabul (which is well known for attracting foreign journalists as well as soldiers since the markets in that area sell Afghan antiques) and they were very happy to be in Afghanistan and that they had nothing much to fear in Kabul since all of the residents were very friendly. Many think that Sept. 11, because Osama was operating from Afghanistan, that Afghans supported this man, but what they failed to realize was that he was in Afghanistan by force, and the Afghans were powerless to oust him because the Taliban had 80-90% of the country due to assistance from the terrorist roach nest called Pakistan. What we must realize is that to establish peace in Afghanistan, Pakistan must be confronted and dealt with accordingly. I hope the Americans go into Pakistani terrority and begin a sweep of that region.

Hey biatch, don't you have anything better to do than to bad-mouth Pakistan? The Pakistan govt helped your ass while the Russian army invaded you. The Pakistani govt allowed your free access to the sea, through AFT. Still, you remain an ass. Go to Islamabad, see the Aghans there, they live in mansions. Those MF live off the Afghani dope money. They talk sh*t about where they live and when they are asked to leave, they don't want to go back to their "homeland". What BS.

Let me tell you once more, if it were not for Pakistan and the American assistance, your sorry-for-a-country would be a part of "Mother Russia". So shut your pie hole and let me not catch you bad mouthing Pakistan again, unless you have proof/evidence.

and some might say, shut your ****in' mouth if you can't say anything constructive in a orderly manner.



Go to Islamabad, see the Aghans there, they live in mansions.

Have you been there?


and some might say, shut your ****in' mouth if you can't say anything constructive in a orderly manner.

You can say that, freedom fo speech you know, the reason I was so sounding pissed off was because look at all the posts by Rebel 7. In all of them, he is blaming Pakistan for THEIR troubles. In one post, "Art scandal" or something, although the post was about something in Israel, he is even talking smack about Pakistan over there.

Yes I've been to Islamabad, I've lived there for almost 2 years. I saw these Aghanis driving their 4x4 with deplomatic plates and being a nusance for normal drivers.

[786mine]

Uhhh, this conversation ended like, in February guys.. And I am pretty sure that Rebel7 is long gone. Talk about re-opening old wounds. Let it go.

786mine, I don't know what your damage is but you have posted 47 times since joining us YESTERDAY. All of your posts are from topics long since covered - some going back to October of 2003! Get a grip man!

Your posts have a serious acid tongue to them as well. It won't get you very far here at all or for very long. If you want to contrubute then great but if all you are about is flaming people then take your crap elsewhere. This dysfunctional family has enough problem children already.

-TW, out!-

Sorry bro, I was not trying to talk smack to anyone else other than Rebel 7. I was trying to understand why he has so much hate for Pakistan when Pakistan has ALWAYS been with the Aghani people.

Let me also take this chance to clarify something, I've been visiting this forum for over 4 months now, and there have been times when I thought about joining and sharing my opinion, but never got around to it. But yesterday, I saw a post that I had to share my opinion on. And since I was posting, I kept posting on all the topics I had read and I wanted to share. So that explains it, I hope.

Peace.

[shorty]

What happened to Rebel 7? I liked his informative posts.