Honkin' Big Trucks Head to Iraq

[Double Tap]

****************

Prehistoric on the outside, Space Age on the inside.

That's how U.S. defense contractor Force Protection describes its heavily armored Buffalo and Cougar trucks, which are being rushed into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. More than 120 of the vehicles will be shipped overseas by February, and about 100 are already in service.

Unlike the U.S. military's soft-skinned Humvees, Force Protection claims that its Buffalo (http://www.forceprotection.net/models/buffalo/specs/buffalo_spec.pdf) (.pdf) and Cougar (http://www.forceprotection.net/models/cougar/specs/cougar4x4_spec.pdf) (.pdf) vehicles can withstand attacks from Iraq's infamous improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, as well as roadside bombs, gunfire and land mines. The cabins and hulls of both vehicles are layered with steel, ceramics and lightweight composites and can repel small-arms fire and shoulder-fired missiles.

Narrow, V-shaped hulls help direct blasts out and away from the vehicles. The Buffalo and Cougar are nimble for their size, and can reach speeds of up to 70 miles per hour. They are much taller than Humvees and sit high off the ground.

The company claims the Buffalo and Cougar's IED-survivability rate is perfect. The vehicles may sustain heavy damage, but no roadside bomb attack against a Buffalo or Cougar has taken the life of a coalition solider, the company said.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69149,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4

[Sgt.Axeman1224]

There was something on the history channel a long time ago about a south african country that built vehicles like these. dont believe they were this frickin huge though. :) "LOW CLEARANCE AHEAD" "Hey sarge can we fit under here?'" "Hell ya private, go for it!" crunch:bash:

[sickofpretenders]

Nothing can withstand a big enough IED

[Resevoir Hogs]

There was something on the history channel a long time ago about a south african country that built vehicles like these. dont believe they were this frickin huge though. :) "LOW CLEARANCE AHEAD" "Hey sarge can we fit under here?'" "Hell ya private, go for it!" crunch:bash:

Don't you mean South Africa? lol

Yes they are well known for making vehicles like the Mamba and Nyala.

In the Canadian army we use the Nyala.

[panzerjager]

Nothing can withstand a big enough IED

Always the beam of sunshine.

[sickofpretenders]

Just telling the facts. A decent shape charge will go through anything. 5 Anti armour mines stacked on top of each other set on trip? an 1000lb of explosives set up like one big beehive? If you drive around Iraq thinking you are in a bomb proof vehicle, then someone will prove its not.

[Pooga]

You could have a ninja stand on top of the vehicle and block any explosions and ensuing shrapnel that dare challenge him.

Does anybody know what effect the shape of a vehicle has on the lethality of an explosion (not a projectile)? Would it be possible, to, say, have very angled sides from the skirt to the top and let the explosion kind of "wash over" the sides and roof of the vehicle?

[Resevoir Hogs]

You could have a ninja stand on top of the vehicle and block any explosions and ensuing shrapnel that dare challenge him.

Does anybody know what effect the shape of a vehicle has on the lethality of an explosion (not a projectile)? Would it be possible, to, say, have very angled sides from the skirt to the top and let the explosion kind of "wash over" the sides and roof of the vehicle?

Its a bit more complicated than that but yes there are many vehicles that incorperate this design philosiphy.

[Resevoir Hogs]

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/2269/is20040665a2pj.jpg

Thats one of those SA vehicles that was mentioned being used by the CF

[sp2c]

Just telling the facts. A decent shape charge will go through anything. 5 Anti armour mines stacked on top of each other set on trip? an 1000lb of explosives set up like one big beehive? If you drive around Iraq thinking you are in a bomb proof vehicle, then someone will prove its not.

well at some point it will be difficult to make them even bigger without the crew going ... hey what's that big box on the road, maybe we go around it?

[BurningMan]

well at some point it will be difficult to make them even bigger without the crew going ... hey what's that big box on the road, maybe we go around it?
good point

[Resevoir Hogs]

Even if there's no way to protect against a big enough IED, you should still do all you can to protect yourself from the majority of them.

It seems a pretty hard thing to stack five AT mines overnight and conceal it.

So the majority of IEDs must be 105 or 155 shells or just a homemade array of explosives.

And there are plenty of ways to defend against those.

Just a few weeks ago a IED was set off beside a Canadian Coyote recce vehicle(LAV-25 for you Americans). The blast resulted in a crater three feet deep I heard and the vehicle protected the crew and was able to slowly make it away on its own power.

In conversations I've had with other soldiers at the unit the thing I learned was this. Rear echelon elements like supply and log and arty have long enjoyed relative safety from the enemy because of the front echelon (Inf and Armour) clearing the way. Our rear vehicles were never armoured as much because we didn't see a need. But with the old soviet block gone and the need for large scale conventional war diminished our attention has turned to operations where the enemy uses these guerilla and non conventional tactics. And as we saw with the advance into Iraq, a lot of the trouble the US forces experienced on the way in was with pockets of enemy attacking their supply lines. At one point the advance was halted to deal with that problem. Having these vehicles as well as other armoured trucks has become a new necessity for modern war.
Its good to see the US taking steps like this to protect its warriors. I sure am glad as a Canadian soldier to know the government is investing in more armoured cars and trucks.

[Laworkerbee]

well at some point it will be difficult to make them even bigger without the crew going ... hey what's that big box on the road, maybe we go around it?

Ah come now these insurgents are not dumb, the dumb ones are long dead.

Lets hope Iraqi insurgents don't start using Afghan tactics with mines.

Drivers will follow the track of other vehicles in heavy mine\IED enviroments thinking the trail is safe since it's been driven over.

The Afghan's would carefully dig out the dirt and place mines on top of one another, then use pieces of wood and other material to re-create tank tread & tire marks seen in the road or trail.

[Andreas]

Great that safer equipment is being provided.
But every time some one says something is proof, waterproof, bombproof iedproof.
Murphys law has a tendency to f**k us over.

Cheers
Andreas

[jizzmonkey]

the buffalo's were used up in Mosul, but it was a civilian IED crew that had them, and those ****ers bank some greenbacks...............we found a ****load of mines, but rarley did the AIF use them...and your right they will eventually make a big enough IED to **** them up too.....I was perfectly content with The Stryker, I hit several IED's and SVBIED's and got hit with RPG's and we all survived, they'll ring your bell, and some guys werent so lucky.

[gf0012-aust]

The Abrams that have been mobility killed were knocked off by triple stacked IED's

The Israeli D9's which have never ever been immobilised in the past and were considered to be tougher than the Merkava 1V as far as durability etc is concerned - had their track record stuffed up by a triple stacked IED

a 16 tonne and a 25 tonne vehicle are going to have a hard time surviving against a triple stacked IED which is capable of killing a 68+ ton MBT or a 45ton peice of plant equipment with very very low centre of gravities.

the IED stacks were concealed - so its not as if someone says - "oh look, an abnormal road feature - lets check it out first" ;)

They may well be useful in saving lives under "average" circumstances - but they're not going to be "invincible".

The Aust'n Bushmaster was benchmarked against the Sth African Caspir for survivability tests, that included 100kilo, 200kilo and 500kilo proximity charge testing at various distances to establish it's health. It managed to surpass the Caspir on every count - that doesn't mean that you'd assume you're safer. And Buffalo traces it's heritage to Caspir in basic design - so one would suspect that it's survivability is higher than average. But impregnable and "absolute"? Nope, good old marketing spin at play. A 25ton vehicle won't survive if a 68+ ton MBT won't. Once that mass starts to do horizontal pirouettes you better hope that the safety shell works as advertised.

Personally I'd be sticking a Kongsberg RWS on there for additional comfort in case the vehicle was mobility killed. Front wheels on long wheel based heavy nosed vehicles tend to get the droops and stop forward motion when they fall off. ;) and there is a lot of mass forward of the front axle...

Whether companies like it or not, they will have product judged against worse case scenarios - and the real worst case scenarios have seen larger, lower, heavier vehicles compromised - and not by IED's masquerading as fire hydrants or letter boxes.

[grist]

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/2269/is20040665a2pj.jpg

Thats one of those SA vehicles that was mentioned being used by the CF

Mack-Daddy SUV! I want one to for trips to the mall.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Yea I think they're pretty sweet, but if your the roof gunner your outta luck.

[gf0012-aust]

Yea I think they're pretty sweet, but if your the roof gunner your outta luck.

Which is why you want the Kongsberg RWS. ;)

[Resevoir Hogs]

Oh yea those things are a coming soon.

[sickofpretenders]

well at some point it will be difficult to make them even bigger without the crew going ... hey what's that big box on the road, maybe we go around it?

Iraq is not like the US mate. There are massive piles of trash all over, dirt mounds, parked cars, trucks, etc etc etc. Do you really think all the people killed by ieds in iraq were driving over strange looking objects in the road? You can fit enough blow in the back of a car to do a lot of damage to any vehicle. Use a truck and you can hide enough bang to destroy anything.



Even if there's no way to protect against a big enough IED, you should still do all you can to protect yourself from the majority of them.
No kidding. That doesnt mean a company can go around saying no IED can kill its car, when thats a blatant lie.



it seems a pretty hard thing to stack five AT mines overnight and conceal it.

OK then. Better tell that to the families of the people whe have been killed by excactly that. Im sure they will be consoled by it. Do you really think the insurgents are incabable of something so EASY as hiding a couple mines? Half they guys doing road repair ARE insurgents and they fill potholes with mines, artillery shells etc and pave over it.



so the majority of IEDs must be 105 or 155 shells or just a homemade array of explosives.

And there are plenty of ways to defend against those.

Where do you get off with this crap? Really? What the hell are you talking about, why 'MUST' the IED's be anything you say? Homemade explosives? there is a little around but with so much factory made stuff available there is very little need to make homemade bang. Plenty of ways to defend against an 8 artillery shells daisy chained? Tell me o master of IED defense in iraq what are those ways?

[dacanadianbomb]

I understand what SOP meant.Wasnt that hard. Saying your vehicle is "proof" and not "resistant" is a nice marketing ploy, but not true.

Its like with the beginning myth of "Bullet-Proof" vests. Its not proof, take a large enough caliber and its not so proof anymore.

[oldsoak]

Maybe we're drifting a little here. If the army gets me something that protects my tender pink person person better than what I get now, thats fine by me. No-one is going to be 100% proof against bombs, bullets , banks, beer or bad women - but every little bit extra helps.

[Resevoir Hogs]

OK then. Better tell that to the families of the people whe have been killed by excactly that. Im sure they will be consoled by it. Do you really think the insurgents are incabable of something so EASY as hiding a couple mines? Half they guys doing road repair ARE insurgents and they fill potholes with mines, artillery shells etc and pave over it.
Have you lost your mind or something? My comments were not at all meant to console anyone about this war. I did not say they(insurgents) were incapable of anything, simply that the majority of the time they use artillery shells or chemical explosives hidden inside cars or garbage cans or any other object they can get their hands on to conceal it. Thats something that comes from my buddies serving over there. And considering your flame like retort I have a hard time believing you that half the people working on road repair over there are insurgents.



Where do you get off with this crap? Really? What the hell are you talking about, why 'MUST' the IED's be anything you say? Homemade explosives? there is a little around but with so much factory made stuff available there is very little need to make homemade bang. Plenty of ways to defend against an 8 artillery shells daisy chained? Tell me o master of IED defense in iraq what are those ways?
This "crap" comes from my buddies serving there and what they have observed in their time there. And was only meant as a justification for needing these vehicles now. So cut the sarcasm and calm yourself down and perhaps we can have a grown up conversation.

[sickofpretenders]

RH: We all agree the more armour the better. Dacanadian bomb and oldsoak have summarised it nicely.

Where you and I will have troubles is when you come over the top with crappy interpretations of second hand info. Have you seen what daisy chained 155 rounds can do to an armoured vehicle? No. Have you seen how easy it is to hide a massive IED in iraq? No. And yet you argue about it like you know it all. Frankly, if you dont want to believe that insurgents, that have infested local police cant get onto the roadwork teams, and dont bury IED's with fresh roadwork then I dont much care. But if you ask your buddies they will confirm it, and if they cant then they shouldnt be rolling. Every driver in the country should have been warned to watch for any fresh roadwork and to look for wires that may be an antenna.

You still havent told us all (and I really want to know) any of the 'plenty of way' to defend yourself from multiple 155's.

[Laworkerbee]

I can't help but think of that Marine AAV that got flipped over by the Double AT mine combo

Outside Ramadi I think

[Omaha]

Well, I don't know. I think Resevoir Hogs has a point.

Road side bombs are not set up in the cities, they are set up in open high way. (Especially that 150 something mile stretch of road between the airport and Baghdad)

Any car or trash can sitting on the side of the road is easily visible, and investigated.

Most of your IEDs (from what I have heard) are either buried at night, or hid in dead animals along the road. Any debris is checked and cleared by Army Engineer/bomb specialists.

And the roads traveled by the Military on a regular basis is traveled all day long and all night. Hardly a few hours to do anything with out at least one convoy going by.

Hell we catch mortar teams all the time with predator fly overs, we will certainly see any large group of people gathering around some stretch of road in the middle of no where.

I am not sure, but doesn't our troops monitor repair and things like that of building and roads? We just don't let the Iraqis run off and "fix" things. Right?

It isn't as out of hand as you might think.

[sickofpretenders]

omaha are you just trying to wind me up? Every single thing you just wrote is wrong. You have no idea at all. Go away. Why must every thread be filled with arm chair commandos with no idea that refuse to even listen to facts or use their brain?

[Omaha]

What?? Make me wrong. Show me where I have "no idea at all".

Don't be a child, actually make an argument.

[Resevoir Hogs]

RH: We all agree the more armour the better. Dacanadian bomb and oldsoak have summarised it nicely.

Where you and I will have troubles is when you come over the top with crappy interpretations of second hand info. Have you seen what daisy chained 155 rounds can do to an armoured vehicle? No. Have you seen how easy it is to hide a massive IED in iraq? No. And yet you argue about it like you know it all. Frankly, if you dont want to believe that insurgents, that have infested local police cant get onto the roadwork teams, and dont bury IED's with fresh roadwork then I dont much care. But if you ask your buddies they will confirm it, and if they cant then they shouldnt be rolling. Every driver in the country should have been warned to watch for any fresh roadwork and to look for wires that may be an antenna.

You still havent told us all (and I really want to know) any of the 'plenty of way' to defend yourself from multiple 155's.

First of all show me where I claim that it is easy to protect against a chain of 155 rounds. I made no comment about that as I was specifically talking about single artillery rounds being used as IEDs.
Second I made no such claims that "I know it all" about IEDs and the only reason you think I've made such a claim is you yourself have made way to many assumptions about what I was originally trying to say.
Thridly, I am quite aware about the threat of IEDs being burried and paved over. What I was disagreeing with you on was your claim that half of the country's road workers are insurgents.
And lastly, I never claimed there was a way to defend against multiple 155s.
What I did say was
so the majority of IEDs must be 105 or 155 shells or just a homemade array of explosives.

And there are plenty of ways to defend against those.
Note I never make any mention of multiple chains of 155. I was specifically talking about IEDs that are single artillery shells. That there are quite a larger array of vehicles in service that can withstand such blasts and protect the crew.

My point was and still is that any explosive can be made big enough to destroy any vehicle. However, we should buy these vehicles because they provide protection against most cases of IEDs and would therefore be of great use dispite the fact that they won't work 100% of the time.

Now I say again, stop making assumptions about what I said and calm yourself down. This isn't a argument because frankly we both agree these vehicles should be purchased. There's no point in getting pissed off at what you "think" someone is saying when they aren't saying that at all.

[Argyll]

Time out!!!!

[Flagg]

Well, I don't know. I think Resevoir Hogs has a point.

Road side bombs are not set up in the cities, they are set up in open high way. (Especially that 150 something mile stretch of road between the airport and Baghdad)

Any car or trash can sitting on the side of the road is easily visible, and investigated.

Most of your IEDs (from what I have heard) are either buried at night, or hid in dead animals along the road. Any debris is checked and cleared by Army Engineer/bomb specialists.

And the roads traveled by the Military on a regular basis is traveled all day long and all night. Hardly a few hours to do anything with out at least one convoy going by.

Hell we catch mortar teams all the time with predator fly overs, we will certainly see any large group of people gathering around some stretch of road in the middle of no where.

I am not sure, but doesn't our troops monitor repair and things like that of building and roads? We just don't let the Iraqis run off and "fix" things. Right?

It isn't as out of hand as you might think.

Omaha,

Unless you have actual first hand experience with the statements you've made, it would probably be a good idea to phrase your statements quite differently in the future.

UNLESS you ARE an actual expert on the subject material and NOT just basing your statements on what you've read on the internet, it would be best to have a look back at how negatively your post could be perceived by others here.

[Flagg]

Time out!!!!

Dang! You beat me to it!

You're bloody quick for an old fella!

[zonk]

i reques t that that be my vehicle for iraq, ill be there ina few weeks to pick it up....thanks

max

[Argyll]

Omaha.................I'll get back to your post in a minute but you're fcuking clueless mate.......100% at that!!

[Argyll]

Hmm I can't seem to go advanced and use colours in a message I keep getting message too short despite several paragraphs of info.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Hmm I can't seem to go advanced and use colours in a message I keep getting message too short despite several paragraphs of info.

You've got to have a little bit of typing outside the quotes for it to work. It doesn't register added stuff in quotes as your typing.

[Argyll]

Ok lets see if we can clear some of this crap up shall we?


Well, I don't know. I think Resevoir Hogs has a point.

Road side bombs are not set up in the cities, they are set up in open high way. (Especially that 150 something mile stretch of road between the airport and Baghdad)
Complete and utter shyte mate,I'd love you to see the incident map from our Ops room in Baghdad,the majority of daily incidents are IED's on average 10-16 a day,just because they don;t make National news don't mean they ain't happening!!.....that stretch of road you think is 150 miles is approx 15 Km's or 10 miles give or take!

Any car or trash can sitting on the side of the road is easily visible, and investigated.

No it isn't.........period!!

Most of your IEDs (from what I have heard) are either buried at night, or hid in dead animals along the road. Any debris is checked and cleared by Army Engineer/bomb specialists.

Again false assumptions,they only clear it if there's a concern to clear it,how long do you thing a thorough route clearance takes?......literally hours,the BIAP would take in excess of 12 hours,do you deny traffic for that period of time?........it's not practical to clear every single route,if you clear a route it alerts bad guys somebodys coming,what about having to take a diversion,to many variables..............so it's not done!!

And the roads traveled by the Military on a regular basis is traveled all day long and all night. Hardly a few hours to do anything with out at least one convoy going by.

More Bull!....it's clear you've never been on any of the MSR's in Iraq,you really shouldn't have posted what you have as it's made you look like a fool,SOP knows his sh*t,like me,we travel these roads daily,sometimes I don't see any Military for hours,sometimes I see plenty in a short space of time!

Hell we catch mortar teams all the time with predator fly overs, we will certainly see any large group of people gathering around some stretch of road in the middle of no where.

That's right these predators cover the entire Road network in Iraq...:roll: ,have you ever seen the size of a predator?They only launch from several locations in Iraq,and they don't have hundreds in the air all the time 24/7 either......for every mortar team that gets hit,10 don't!!!

I am not sure, but doesn't our troops monitor repair and things like that of building and roads? We just don't let the Iraqis run off and "fix" things. Right?

WRONG!!!

It isn't as out of hand as you might think.

And this is based on the Intelligence you have on a daily basis?

[Omaha]

I never said there weren't a lot. I am more than sure there are a **** load planted everyday and that never go off.


You are telling me that if there was a large object just sitting in the middle of the road or off to the side, the military would just pass it by and think nothing of it? I would really doubt that.


"we travel these roads daily,sometimes I don't see any Military for hours,sometimes I see plenty in a short space of time!"

You just restated what I had typed...all I said was they are regualrly traveled. They aren't baron of all military presence for weeks at a time.


"That's right these predators cover the entire Road network in Iraq... ,have you ever seen the size of a predator?They only launch from several locations in Iraq,and they don't have hundreds in the air all the time 24/7 either......for every mortar team that gets hit,10 don't!!!"

I never said we catch everyone, all I said was that we catch them. And a group of people gathered to the side of a road with vehicles (I would assume they don't carry these things..then agian according to you I don't know a damn thing so maybe they do) that would draw attention.


"I am not sure, but doesn't our troops monitor repair and things like that of building and roads? We just don't let the Iraqis run off and "fix" things. Right?"


"WRONG!!!"

I am pretty sure I ASKED A DAMN QUESTION. Thanks for being an ass.


"And this is based on the Intelligence you have on a daily basis?"

And it is? So I am to believe that although the Iraqi people have had two country wide historic votes (one just today) and all the progress that has been made, it is still one giant **** hole with roaming bands of terrorists occupying cities and killing troops? Now I KNOW for a FACT that isn't true.




So far the only thing I was truly wrong about was the length of the road, 10 miles as opposed to the 15 I thought it was..

[James]

Omaha,

Argyll and many other members here have spent quite a bit of time in Iraq and other places and make posts based on their own experiences. Perhaps you could take that into account before challenging them.

Just a thought. Have a good one.

[Deuterium]

The first convoy or vehicle movement you do in Iraq you are in for a treat. You've practiced long and hard for your deployment and it's finally time to put it to good use. You lock and load and head out through the main gate and onto route *****. The first thing you notice is that all the traffic doesn't obey any known law of safe traffic procedures. Cars go on the wrong side of the road, come right at you, cut you off, and generally act like Boston traffic at rush hour. The next thing you notice is all the trash on the roads. You've been taught about how the Hajis hide IEDs and then the reality of the LARGE amount of trash hits you. There are boxes, dead animals, containers, road debris, and construction fcuking EVERYWHERE!!! Which ones hide an IED? You physically cringe each time you pass an object. Soon you are dead in the city and the traffic jams start. No working traffic lights, cops trying to manage traffic flow(usually poorly) and irate drivers abound. Then the warning shots begin from your convoy.... So begns your tour of duty in Iraq. Welcome.

[Deuterium]

Here is the infamous route from the airport to the green zone that a few of us Mods have driven many times. It's mostly urban although the road itself is a divided four/six lane.

http://www.deuteriumox.com/rocks/iraq.jpg

[Argyll]

Pt 2.........and you're so full of yourself it's un-fcuking believable!!

I never said there weren't a lot. I am more than sure there are a **** load planted everyday and that never go off.

No you stated there were none in the cities and built up areas!! I told you there were 10-16 incidents approx a day,I have access to daily SITREPs in Iraq.......have you?......oh and I've been IED'd going through Baghdad,so unless you know what you're talking about I'd refrain from makeing assumptions!!


You are telling me that if there was a large object just sitting in the middle of the road or off to the side, the military would just pass it by and think nothing of it? I would really doubt that.

That's exactly what I'm telling you,I asked you how long does it take to physically clear a route......based on your past experience?.....Mine says it takes hours of slow painstaking checking,but then again,maybe all these vehicles we see passing by carcasses,and boxes and rubbish etc,(oh and you tell me Mr.I'm the experienced one,how can you check behind paving slabs,or under melted tarmac EVERY DAY/TRIP........)are not Hummers with plenty of US troops inside....,it's pretty hard to be thorough from the inside of a vehicle!!:bash: ......the US relies on ECM more than it does checking routes,you really are clueless,and have the audacity to question personal experience from people who are currently in Iraq.I see the exact behaviour almost every single day....with nobody getting out to check!!


"we travel these roads daily,sometimes I don't see any Military for hours,sometimes I see plenty in a short space of time!"

You just restated what I had typed...all I said was they are regualrly traveled. They aren't baron of all military presence for weeks at a time.

No that's not what you stated,you said there was a military precence almsot continious,and it doesn't take weeks to prepare IED'd either,I told you a jacked up team can have them ready and placed within an hour or two,so start thinking before engaging your piehole...you're naievity is well above the norm here!!!,when's the last time you drove down the Main MSR running through Iraq?


"That's right these predators cover the entire Road network in Iraq... ,have you ever seen the size of a predator?They only launch from several locations in Iraq,and they don't have hundreds in the air all the time 24/7 either......for every mortar team that gets hit,10 don't!!!"

I never said we catch everyone, all I said was that we catch them. And a group of people gathered to the side of a road with vehicles (I would assume they don't carry these things..then agian according to you I don't know a damn thing so maybe they do) that would draw attention.

No you implied that there were assets out there 24/7 that should be stopping the placing of IED,you reffered to Mortar teams which are NOT IED's,whens the last time you seen a mortar that's not being made into an IED buried in a carcass to fire?.......:roll: again you're making the assumption about seeing a group of people,you just don't know Iraq at all do you,infact you know jack****,on a typical day there are on an average stretch of road of say 100km's upto 2 dozen cars laid up on the side of the road,broken down,then there are the groups of people waiting for lifts.......why don't we just hellfire their ass because they're in groups?


"I am not sure, but doesn't our troops monitor repair and things like that of building and roads? We just don't let the Iraqis run off and "fix" things. Right?"


"WRONG!!!"

I am pretty sure I ASKED A DAMN QUESTION. Thanks for being an ass.

You're welcome,your post was more of a referal than a question,as for being an ass,well when you've put boots on the ground and see the things I've seen in Iraq,then you can come here and offer experinced views....as for being an ass.......well you're whole post made you like like one,a clueless one at that!! Oh and if I said it was WRONG,then an intelligent person would note that there was an answer within it!!


"And this is based on the Intelligence you have on a daily basis?"

And it is? So I am to believe that although the Iraqi people have had two country wide historic votes (one just today) and all the progress that has been made, it is still one giant **** hole with roaming bands of terrorists occupying cities and killing troops? Now I KNOW for a FACT that isn't true.

Who supplies you with a daily Int brief,are you in Iraq serving?becase I don't think you'd be getting anything other than news articles,what the fcuk a historical vote has to do with daily IED's I don't know....or are you once again showing your experience here let me think for a second......yes there was a complex attack only last week involving upto 20-40 Isurgents using IED's,SAF and RPGs....maybe the PSD who reported it just made that up for sh*ts and giggles...........the I KNOW for a FACT statement is the most ignorant statement I've seen here yet,maybe you could explain the 3 attacks around Al Hit a few months back involving Hart,where insurgents took out an entire PSD team of 20 blokes,yes that's correct,some have never been recovered,you think because they were LN's it's irrelevant?......or maybe you can explain the Operations in Haditha,Al Qiam and Tal Afar,all against what you wrote,which were no more than a few weeks back?




So far the only thing I was truly wrong about was the length of the road, 10 miles as opposed to the 15 I thought it was..

So far you've not been proven accurate in anything you've stated,shall we reacap?

1.Road side bombs are not set up in the cities, they are set up in open high way. (Especially that 150 something mile stretch of road between the airport and Baghdad)
Iv'e told you this is not correct,infact more IED's are setp in cities and towns,because there are more targets than open Highways!!nand the BIAP road length.....so you were wrong on both accounts
2.Any car or trash can sitting on the side of the road is easily visible, and investigated.
Incorrect it isn't.......any "suspicious" items may be reported, butdue to OPSEC reason I'll not post why units don't stop and search every single item of trash......there's also just too much of it!!
3.Most of your IEDs (from what I have heard) are either buried at night, or hid in dead animals along the road. Any debris is checked and cleared by Army Engineer/bomb specialists.
See my original answer

So far that's 3 out of 3 that's been pointed out to you,thats innacurate,or truly wrong according to your statements.All your statements are based on your assumptions,which are way off with the reality of daily life in Iraq

[sickofpretenders]

Argyll and Deuterium, thanks for writing what I couldnt gain the patience to.

Omaha: You are a dead set moron, arguing about something you have absolutely no idea about. From you posts I can tell you have never stepped foot in the ME, and if you have ever put on a uniform it was to go and play airsoft (or maybe you are a particularily ignorant pogue). My guess is you are under 18 as well. I see you are attacking others on other threads as well about things you have no idea about.


And it is? So I am to believe that although the Iraqi people have had two country wide historic votes (one just today) and all the progress that has been made, it is still one giant **** hole with roaming bands of terrorists occupying cities and killing troops? Now I KNOW for a FACT that isn't true.

Even people who follow the news know that is not true you ignoramus. It was only a month ago the US had to retake a town from insurgents, and that is one of the few that make the news. You must be the only person alive in the world that thinks the country is stable democracy now. I am at a loss for words to describe how amazingly idiotic you must be to have written that.

RH: Dont backpeddle, you said some dumb stuff to argue with me over my comment that no vehicle could be called 'ied proof'. I know people who have been killed by the 155's you so callously tell the world are 'easy to defend against' and you keep avoiding telling us all how. That comment, to me is a personal insult as I know great guys, in switched on teams (or platoons) who know a city well and have excellent drills who have been hit hard by IED's. If you go outside the wire it can happen to you. You can do everything right but a VBIED can come out of nowhere or one of the many cars parked on the side of the road can be loaded up etc etc. But here I have some little prick who has never even been in the country telling me the people I know that have been killed or wounded by such an IED could have 'easy defended themselves against it'. Well buddy, FU. You want an adult discussion, start acting like one and dont try to force your patchy second hand rumours down my neck when I have first hand knowledge and a year in the country.

[Argyll]

Good points SOP................well presented.......to many chairborne commandoes around,who are not fit to lace the boots of the dead....may they rest in peace!

[magicpie]

In soviet russia the trucks drive you

[Omaha]

Okay, I apologize for what I have said.

Thanks for setting me straight.

[Argyll]

Now that's a gutsy thing to do,and is duly noted and appreciated

[sickofpretenders]

If your still doubting check out the videos on this site, like the brand new security camera called "vbied video, anyone have some info on this?" to get a feel for how much bang you can fit in a car and then

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55094

And consider every car or truck they pass could be filled with explosives. The guys in that team at erinys werer even squared enough to have noticed it and moved to the other side of the road, where there was a crater from a bomb that had hit them another time. You constanly cringe on the road in bad towns as every car moving or stopped could be out to get you, and having a family in the back is no assurance its not a bomb either. Then there are the piles of dirt, rubbish, dead donkeys or horses, fresh roadwork etc etc. Its just like deuterium said, you hear before you go what to look out for and then you realise the reason bombs are hidden in those things are because they are everywhere. Even some t-walls and jersey barriers have been found pre made with explosives inside.

[Resevoir Hogs]

RH: Dont backpeddle, you said some dumb stuff to argue with me over my comment that no vehicle could be called 'ied proof'.
Backpedling ha yea whatever buddy, I simply point out that the comments you want to argue with me on are not ones I EVER made on this thread. That you simply misinterpreted my statements. You show me where I made the said comments about "multiple chainlinked 155s being easy to defend against." And I'd appologize however, I never said that.

Furthermore I never intended to argue that "no vehicle is IED proof" because if you can read and see here in my original post I said "Even if there's no way to protect against a big enough IED, you should still do all you can to protect yourself from the majority of them."
I dunno how I can spell it out for you any simpler, but where it says "there's no way to protect against a big enough IED" even a person with limited mental faculties can interpret that as being the same as "not every vehicle is IED proof."

I don't mind arguing a point but I'm not going to argue one you made the mistake of thinking I was trying to say.




I know people who have been killed by the 155's you so callously tell the world are 'easy to defend against' and you keep avoiding telling us all how.
That comment, to me is a personal insult as I know great guys, in switched on teams (or platoons) who know a city well and have excellent drills who have been hit hard by IED's.

Yeah buddy I'm a soldier too and I too have known troops who have made the sacrifice over there. You and I will both have to trust our lives to the kit we are using when it comes to mines and IEDs.

And I do believe in my original post I did tell you how. It says here "Just a few weeks ago a IED was set off beside a Canadian Coyote recce vehicle(LAV-25 for you Americans). The blast resulted in a crater three feet deep I heard and the vehicle protected the crew and was able to slowly make it away on its own power." I.e that vehicle the way it was uparmoured was able to withstand what was believed to be a very powerful explosive. The crew escaped with only minor cuts and bruises and the vehicle was not completely disabled. Actually read a persons posts before you lose you cool and make assumptions.

The comment was meant to talk about the limits and capabilities of todays vehicles and makes no reference to the troops in the feild doing the outstanding job they do everyday.



If you go outside the wire it can happen to you. You can do everything right but a VBIED can come out of nowhere or one of the many cars parked on the side of the road can be loaded up etc etc. But here I have some little prick who has never even been in the country telling me the people I know that have been killed or wounded by such an IED could have 'easy defended themselves against it'.
Well that's real great, I haven't once called you anything and already you are bringing out the schoolyard insults.
Where you go wrong with this statement is you have changed my words. Go back read my posts again and you'd see I said "And there are plenty of ways to defend against those." That was in reference to the vehicles capabilities as this whole thread is specifically about these two vehicles being brought into service. NOT once do I EVER say that troops are not doing a good enough job to try and defend themselves against the threat of IEDs. Stop making huge assumptions about what I'm saying and actually ask me to clarify what I meant by something if you don't understand it.


Well buddy, FU. You want an adult discussion, start acting like one and dont try to force your patchy second hand rumours down my neck when I have first hand knowledge and a year in the country.
Hey I'm not the one here having a online temper tantrum because of what you "thought" I was saying when in fact you completely took my statements out of context.
I am not arguing with you nor have I ever tried to go against the statement that "No vehicle is IED proof" as I myself made a similar statement as shown earlier.
I don't care what you believe to be true, this argument isn't about that. IT's about you completely miswording, misunderstanding and outright skewing statements I have made. AS I said earlier I will not debate points I have not made and do not believe to be true.

I am glad you have served there and appreciate it. However, this is a place to reasonably discuss military topics. Not a place to rant and vent anger (especially when you've misunderstood what was being said). This whole chain of posts is getting pretty rediculous so if you want to continue to maintain I said something I didn't say and argue it then PM me and we won't waste space on this thread.

[Resevoir Hogs]

I will apologize for one thing and that was not being clear enough in my original statements for you to properly understand them.

To clarify my statemenet that there "Are plenty of ways to defend against those" was meant to be taken in the context of what I was talking about in that post and previous ones. Which was the design of armoured vehicles. Some of those ways would be angled chassi bottoms to deflect incoming rounds and shrapnel downward or mine hits out and away from the center. A combination of ceramic and reactive add ons to increase survivability. Or as we see with some of the newer experimental vehicles, taking into account how to muffle the shockwave and blast from a IED to keep crew inside from being banged around too much.

My comments were at no time making reference to the fine job soldiers in the feild are doing.

[sickofpretenders]

RH say what you like now, but your words a few pages back are still there. You pushed your crap point based on zero real info:


It seems a pretty hard thing to stack five AT mines overnight and conceal it.
So what? It happens often enough. Hard? when did that stop anyone from doing anything? Your implication is it doesnt happen. Your wrong.


So the majority of IEDs must be 105 or 155 shells or just a homemade array of explosives.

And there are plenty of ways to defend against those.

Your just plain wrong. Im sorry I gave you credit and assumed you at least knew no IEDs are just one mortar or artillery round anymore. They almost always use more than one.

Your backpeddaling and trying to cover crap with more crap. The fact is your second hand info put down in semi ambiguous form didnt stand up to scrutiny and now your not man enough to admit you were wrong.

By the way, Im not a US soldier, im ex aussie and I work as a contractor so dont thank me.

[Argyll]

Try this one.......last week on B*****k.......3 x 120mm mortar rounds on top of an Anti Tank barmine concealled in a 45 gallon drum,you would think this would be easy to see........yes?.........well not when it's outside a fuel station and there are dozens of lorries filling up at the side of the same route,using 45 gallon drums!!!
That baby would have flipped an M1A1,let alone a Suburban or Excursion!!

[Resevoir Hogs]

RH say what you like now, but your words a few pages back are still there. You pushed your crap point based on zero real info:
Yea ok there now your insulting my buddies experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan and saying that the knowledge they passed on isn't real info.



Quote:
It seems a pretty hard thing to stack five AT mines overnight and conceal it.

So what? It happens often enough. Hard? when did that stop anyone from doing anything? Your implication is it doesnt happen. Your wrong.

You notice where is says "IT SEEMS". Do you not have enough of an understanding of the english language to understand the difference between someone making a broad generalization and someone stating a fact. I was not stating a fact, and your assumption that I was is your own fault. If I meant to say that it doesn't happen then guess what THAT'S WHAT I WOULD HAVE SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. But since it wasn't what I was getting at I didn't say that.



So the majority of IEDs must be 105 or 155 shells or just a homemade array of explosives.

And there are plenty of ways to defend against those.

We can sit an argue annecdotal evidence all we want. You're stories and perceptions against mine. But frankly as I said before I was making a case for why it is important to have as many armoured cars and trucks brought into service now. I can't for the life of me understand why me making that case would anger you.



Your just plain wrong. Im sorry I gave you credit and assumed you at least knew no IEDs are just one mortar or artillery round anymore. They almost always use more than one.
Depends on where you get your information from and who you've talked to and when they were there. I am not going to argue to defend any statement I made that were meants as generalizations and not as fact. I would've hoped that anyone reading my post could have realized for themselves that those statements were not meant as anything more than speculation.



Your backpeddaling and trying to cover crap with more crap. The fact is your second hand info put down in semi ambiguous form didnt stand up to scrutiny and now your not man enough to admit you were wrong.

IF I were backpeddling then I'd be changing my original argument. Let me clarify it for you since you seem to have missed it over and over. It still is "That even though not all IEDs can be defended against, there are many armoured vehicles on the market that can be of great use and should be purchased."
I am defending my original post because you both took it out of context on many occassions and took it to mean something more than what it was. I still maintain that there are a wide varriety of armoured carriers, cars, and trucks that have a reasonable level of protection and can save lives. Therefore they should be procured asap.
Oh and just for the record, childish namecalling, taking what people have said out of context, and the old I'm right your wrong attitude isn't scrutiny.



By the way, Im not a US soldier, im ex aussie and I work as a contractor so dont thank me.
Again taking my comments to mean something they didn't. If I'm sure of anything its that I wasn't thanking you for anything. You've been nothing but rude from the get go and if you want to affect any change in what people think you should try to be less of a powder keg and calmly present your points.

[Argyll]

Whan an IED can flip an M1A1,then no truck will offer you protection,what you don't realise is it's not the blast that'll kill you outright it's the concussion and compression inside the vehicle when it gets hit,that kills most of the victims.Having fancy big trucks just makes you a bigger,slower target,and the devices will just get bigger to combat it.............in NI back in the 80's the PIRA were using 1000kg's, it threw 20 tonne vehicles 100 yards,ain't nobody surviving that size of blast..........period

[zonk]

a single buried 155 is enough to damage or destroy a m1114 . most of the munitions i saw used against us were relatively smaller than what you are talking about. unless these guys are extremely well supplied they usually will not surpass a 155 round. no vehicle is safe from an ied, but i also agree with RH on this when saying we are doing a damn good job tracking ied's and most of them are detectable. we are also learning as fast as the insurgents i have full confidence in our abilities

[Resevoir Hogs]

Whan an IED can flip an M1A1,then no truck will offer you protection,what you don't realise is it's not the blast that'll kill you outright it's the concussion and compression inside the vehicle when it gets hit,that kills most of the victims.Having fancy big trucks just makes you a bigger,slower target,and the devices will just get bigger to combat it.............in NI back in the 80's the PIRA were using 1000kg's, it threw 20 tonne vehicles 100 yards,ain't nobody surviving that size of blast..........period

I'd agree of course as I said in my original post no vehicle will ever be able to defend against every explosive. However, having armoured protection on trucks and jeeps does allow protection against some IEDs. That's all I was getting at, I don't believe that to be a unreasonable statement.

[Resevoir Hogs]

a single buried 155 is enough to damage or destroy a m1114 . most of the munitions i saw used against us were relatively smaller than what you are talking about. unless these guys are extremely well supplied they usually will not surpass a 155 round. no vehicle is safe from an ied, but i also agree with RH on this when saying we are doing a damn good job tracking ied's and most of them are detectable. we are also learning as fast as the insurgents i have full confidence in our abilities

Exactly! That's precisely what my buddies in the 10th were saying. And since they drive the roads there too I tend to believe them more than SOP and his rude childish I'm right and your wrong statements.

[goldman]

Sickofpretenders you're prepubescent lunatic!

[sickofpretenders]

Goldman: What? I didnt think you were the type to come in half assed and troll.

Zonk. If were so good at tracking them why is the rate not going down and why are so many guys still getting killed by them? And again, something the chairbore warrior RH keeps forgetting to address is VBIEDs.

RH. Every word digs you deeper, your contradicting yourself now. Your poorly interpreted,old, second hand info fueled speculation was not worth any of our time. But here you are persistently arguing it against me and others who see it first hand and get daily int reports. Grow up child, Argyll and I are not making this stuff up and your attempts to go back and change the meaning of your words in earlier posts is completely pathetic.

Edit. I just realised something. Your a pogue, arent you RH? You must be.
edit. Also RH where where these mates of yours posted in iraq? Every news report I read said canada frenched out on Iraq and I have yet to see where the candians are based in country.

[dunkin]

I think the bottom line is that, finally they are getting something better than a Humvee with fiberglass sides!

[dacanadianbomb]

I heard someone say chairborne, so I thought I would report for duty.



I think everyone agress on the fact that anything with more armour is a good thing.Anything to survive the initial blast, in one piece at least.


By Argyll
"what you don't realise is it's not the blast that'll kill you outright it's the concussion and compression inside the vehicle when it gets hit,that kills most of the victims"

Excellent point !
1st Schockwave
2nd Fragmentation

There is a table on the net somewhere detailing at what PSi's you start sustaining serious injury, leading to death.
Very nasty internal injuries.Torn lungs, TBI etc.

Every layer helps but if the wave is strong enough it will kill you.

And not to forget for those who dont wear their seat belts, and sustain injuries if their vehicle does the rollover.


ON PBS frontline there was the before posted video of a IED attack on a convoy , where the commentator noted that the driver had been knocked unconcious.
I also remember reading about an incident on another forum where a IC vehicle was hit with an IED, most members in vehicle were unconcious , the one/s who werent used their driving SOP ( no theirs, not ours SOP ) to get downed members and vehicle off the X.


Heres a link to an article about explosives and IEd's in general.

http://www.securitydriver.com/aic/stories/article-114.html


Disclaimer:

I am nor never was .mil, IC or involved with explosives or EOD.

[Johnny_H02]

Damn argyll
Ive never seen this man dig into someone befor .. ever.

Play with fire you get burned I spose.
Interesting reads though, I didnt know anything about IED's other then they were a giant BOOM that could pretty much cremate anything they blow up beside or under.

[Argyll]

Exactly! That's precisely what my buddies in the 10th were saying. And since they drive the roads there too I tend to believe them more than SOP and his rude childish I'm right and your wrong statements.

10th what?........Mountain or Group,if it's group verify your buddies names with Deuterium because I don't think many of them would be talking about OPSEC issues even to a member of the Canadian Forces,and especially about Iraq.

Ok I'm not taking sides here,but RH you did come over as "matter of fact",and did not pose questions but more or less dictated facts,you showed no interest in leaway when confronted with information from a forum member that what you were saying was not entirely accurate,and based on assumptions........SOP is well up to speed with the current trends of IED's and is probably in possesion of more hard facts than second hand information,by buddies.....SOP has a vested interest in this subject,because close personal friends of his were Killed recently by an IED attack.

I'm not taking sides,both of you are hot headed,one has first hand experience in country,length and bred,and the other has 2nd hand information passed onto him.........sorry but where I work,the first hand accounts always have presedence,because they might just have that edge on preventing an attack on your callsign!!

The discussion of IED's and their effects,composition and initiation should in my opinion not be discussed on the net anyway,last thing we need is to let Achmed bad guy know that his latest bomb was a doozy and was highly effective........after all 5 US Marines were killed in Ramadi by an IED just a few days ago........so announcing that we're getting the upper hand is a little premature...........oh and to throw 5 bar mines together doesn't take that long if you've already planned your ambush!! p-)

[Johnny_H02]

I dont know if this is classified information yet, but a new head of the insurgency has been ID'd by the CIA and MI6 * seen below



http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8716/jafar3xr.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jafar3xr.jpg)

argyll, his name dosnt have to be Ahmed, could be Habeeb .. you never truely know.
PS sorry for being a smart ass, im young ... dumb and sickley! and in desperate need of sleep.

[GoSka37]

So... if this replaces the HUMVWW then will it replace the H2? I certainly hope so @_@ wait... no i take taht back...

"Pimp my cougar"

[Resevoir Hogs]

Goldman: What? I didnt think you were the type to come in half assed and troll.
I think he's simply articulating my point that your tone throughout has been rude and uneeded.

Zonk. If were so good at tracking them why is the rate not going down and why are so many guys still getting killed by them? And again, something the chairbore warrior RH keeps forgetting to address is VBIEDs.
This guy is a US soldier and you ain't, so I'd take his opinion over yours any day. At least he understands what I was saying. in the first place.

RH. Every word digs you deeper, your contradicting yourself now.
you show me where I contradicted myself and I'd conceed to that statement, however it is you who has taken what I said out of context in the first place so I doubt I will get a straigt answer from you and you'll just divert our attention to something else to save face.
Your poorly interpreted,old, second hand info fueled speculation was not worth any of our time. But here you are persistently arguing it against me and others who see it first hand and get daily int reports. Grow up child, Argyll and I are not making this stuff up and your attempts to go back and change the meaning of your words in earlier posts is completely pathetic.
I have attempted to go back and explain to you what I meant by my comments as you seem to have misunderstood them in the first place. Then again I'm not the one who resorts to schoolyard namecalling and changing the wording of someone elses posts to support my points, so which one of us is a child again. And the last time I checked Argyll isn't taking either of our sides and I completely agree with statements he has made here.

Edit. I just realised something. Your a pogue, arent you RH? You must be.
edit. Also RH where where these mates of yours posted in iraq? Every news report I read said canada frenched out on Iraq and I have yet to see where the candians are based in country.
First of all I have already stated what I am and what I do, Infantry, and I don't quite care what you think of me. Personal attacks on someone you know little to nothing about simply hurt your own position(and your user rating is seems).

Second you seem to not understand that I wasn't talking about my Canadian army buddies who were serving in Iraq(because Canada has no troops there and I never said we did) but my American army buddies. I do live and hour from the border and I do train and work with US soldiers from time to time.

And yes Argyll the 10th refers to the 10th mountain division. And no they did not communicate any information to me that would violate OPSEC as they were no longer in country at the time of our conversations nor did they divulge protected or classified information to me and never would. And no I will not openly post people's names on this site or any internet site for that matter, that is a rediculous idea. Discussing general topics like, what are the most common IEDs you've encountered is not only a part of my job but is common discussion ammong troops at work and off duty just like what weapons did you find and so on. There's nothing wrong with sharing war stories over a few cool ones.

Argyll I have nothing but respect for most who have BTDT and who wish to share with me information about their experiences. But when SOP comes in with

OK then. Better tell that to the families of the people whe have been killed by excactly that. Im sure they will be consoled by it. Do you really think the insurgents are incabable of something so EASY as hiding a couple mines? Half they guys doing road repair ARE insurgents and they fill potholes with mines, artillery shells etc and pave over it.
I don't consider posts like that to be information a forum member is attempting to discuss, but attack with, and I go on the defensive.
Because:
A. He says that I said insurgents are incapable of something when what I actually said is
it seems a pretty hard thing to stack five AT mines overnight and conceal it.
Wherein that do I say that is doesn't happen, or that they are incapable of something? I simply make a broad assumption that digging a hole deep enough for five AT mines beside or on a road at night trying to avoid patrols and getting caught seems to be a pretty lengthy and time consuming task.
I do not like people putting words in my mouth or taking my comments to mean something more than they are. That is why he and I are having this problem. I have already appologized for not being specific or clear enough for him but he has yet to make ammends for making wild assumptions about my posts and might I add for personally insulting me every chance he gets.

B.I said
so the majority of IEDs must be 105 or 155 shells or just a homemade array of explosives.

And there are plenty of ways to defend against those.

and then he replies with

Where do you get off with this crap? Really? What the hell are you talking about, why 'MUST' the IED's be anything you say? Homemade explosives? there is a little around but with so much factory made stuff available there is very little need to make homemade bang. Plenty of ways to defend against an 8 artillery shells daisy chained? Tell me o master of IED defense in iraq what are those ways?
Notice where he tries to quote me as saying there was a easy way to defend against 8 artillery shells? That is not what I said. I was however, not specific enough in what I was refering to which was vehicles that can defend against single 105 or 155 arty shell IEDs going off. But again I have appologized for being unclear in my wording. Whereas he has not for his initial post calling what I said crap(and by extension what I've learned from troops who have first hand experience there including zonk), and taking a sarcastic and insulting tone from the get go.
If he had simply stated that I was incorrect in assuming something and this is the way it is then I would have been fine with that. But coming in here swearing and kicking on top of adding words to my own words tends to not get the best reaction from me or anyone.

C. My second hand information that I got from people who have served there first hand has not been disproven by SOP. All he has done is say no your wrong without giving proof or examples of why and swear and attack me personally, that does little to disprove my assumption and more to prove to others here that he has a sever anger problem.
He claims that the majority of IEDs in Iraq are massive 5 plus stacked AT mines and 8 to 12 linked arty rounds. What I have heard from people like Zonk and many others I have served with or know in personal life is this. That those sorts of IEDs do occur, but even larger in numbers are the IEDs that are single or two arty shells linked, or Cars and trucks straped with explosives, or trashcans with radio detonated explosives inside them. That in their experiences those were the types of IEDs they saw and dealt with. Now I'm a reasonable person and I can admit when I'm wrong(as I have admited my post was poorly worded and apologized for that already). But if I'm presented with information from multiple sources that don't know each other persay, and who I know in the real world or have spent a while talking to online and then I'm presented with a different set of information from someone(SOP) who is having a online tantrum that rivals the old ladys PMS, well you tell me who I am more inclined to believe.

Any reasonable person would know to not trust the word or a raving lunatic, let alone one over the internet. I am still waiting for some proof or explanation to disprove the assumption I made. Here we have SOP saying one thing and Zonk saying another. I'm more inclined to believe Zonk because at least he can make a statement without resorting to childish namecalling and a offensive attitude.

[sickofpretenders]

Read the other posts by other members and you will realise zonk is wrong if you had any real info you would know that. People are dying daily. Now I am not going to bore everyone with 2 pages of defensive drivel. You have put words in my mouth in your rant above just after claiming i did it to you. Anyway I and anyone else here with a clue now has your measure and your posts do the propaganda war good so go for it little buddy.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Read the other posts by other members and you will realise zonk is wrong if you had any real info you would know that. People are dying daily. Now I am not going to bore everyone with 2 pages of defensive drivel. You have put words in my mouth in your rant above just after claiming i did it to you. Anyway I and anyone else here with a clue now has your measure and your posts do the propaganda war good so go for it little buddy.

My claiming of you doing it to me was clearly shown where and when you put words in my mouth. If you'd read my last post entirely you'd know that. That you can't admit to making assumptions is only testament to your own personal malfunctions. That is my number one problem with you that you either by mistake or deliberately took my posts to mean something different than what I meant. I don't have a problem debating a point but I do with people who skew what I said and add on to it. I enjoy debating and discussing topics such as this because it expands my own knowledge. Now if you can provide some articles or statistics that show that the majority of the IEDs that are going off in Iraq are massive chains of 2 plus arty rounds or stacked mines then I'll agree. But I cannot buy the argument of "I'm right your wrong, your crap I'm no"t that you have been taking over the last several pages. AS I said before you'll go a long way in changing peoples minds or educating others if you don't insult them and actually engage in a respectable debate.

Zonk has time in country as well as you say you do. What makes your word any better than his? one BTDTs word against another. I am more inclined to believe the word of someone who doesn't insult and have a tantrum right off the bat.

[dacanadianbomb]

Remember a time out has already been called by a mod,lets try and keep this going on a ok level.

so lets agree to the following.
INsurgo-terrorists, will use whatever they have at their disposal.Be it 105,120 or 155 arty rounds, one or 5 or whatever.They use whatever they can get their hands on.NO amount of armour will make you 100% secure...ever.
What and how much ranges from which of the dozens of different little groups that are out there, depending on their amount of money and access .

Lets agree that there are certainly a percentage of roadworkers who are insurgents, either by direct involvement, or by indirect aiding and abeiting, just as there is in the IP and general population.

Armour is better than no armour, and more armour is better than enough armour.

And now lets let shall hands exchange hugs and let it be.

[Argyll]

OK you both need to take a time out on this as you're both getting to the point where it's going nowhere except downhill fast.

Let me recap a little here,you stated the 10th....but nothing after it,people may have had the impression you were refering to group,hence the reason I asked you to PM Deut with the names of your buddies,as you well know he's former 10th GP....That was to simply verify you were telling the truth not making up fictitious buddies.....,the weird thing though I was in Baghdad last year,and there were not many 10th people there that I seen,they had a shared camp in Victory,so the 10th Mt were not one of the Key Units in Baghdad during last year,they were not deployed as a Div,probably Battalion strength...I dunno..just saying.

As for SOP's user ratings....all I got to say is the internet means nothing when you're running up and down Tampa or Route Irish,so bonus points or reputation points are moot in the real world... and awarding of negative points or reporting posts is almost a equaly childish too....all it means is that people don't like your opinions....move along please.......nothing to see here......understand?

His reference to the 8 linked,I believe was a question directed back at you,but I'll answer from my viewpoint......there is no defence against a daisy linked IED,at best you try to ride it out,and you may survive bruised and battered and in need of a new career,and pants,at worst you'll be scraped from the insides of a vehicle and dumped into a bin bag unceremoniously,and become another statistic on a computer somewhere in someones room.

The bad guys will use ANY munition they can get their hands on,they will combine any munition they can get their hands on,if it doesn't work they'll make it bigger,and bigger and bigger,no vehicle can guarantee your safety,it will offer you some form of protection against some munitions,but if you believe you're impervious to IED's one day your luck will run out

I also don't agree he claimed that most IED's are 5 stacked,he made the point that they can be 5 stacked based on a particular incident,oh and they don't have to be dug into the road to be concealed mate,you never heard of bridges?;) as for the comments by yourself about being able to defend yourself against 105 and 155 IED's,well that's actually not correct either,because there have been hundreds and I mean hundreds killed by such shells,now I go out each day,I'm not forwarned about the specific IED threat,so how can I protect myself against them? ECM doesn't stop command wire detonation,and there are very few PSD's with such equipment,a 155 detonated less than 6 feet away from your vehicle is probable enough to do it's job,the only way to protect yourself from IED's and VBIED's is to fly!!

To be honest,nobody on the ground really gives a shyt about the calibre of the IED when it goes off,last thing they do is to check it out,they're too busy shytting themselves,and wondering if there's more on the way.

Just for your interest there were over 20 reported IED incidents(detonations)in Iraq yesterday alone..........just because they didn't kill doesn't mean they were defeated,or the vehicles did their jobs.......sometimes,infact more so the timing of the insurgents just plain suck.....and that's good news for those on the recieving end!!

[sickofpretenders]

great last 2 posts. Im immature enough bicker like a child but occasionally mature enough to stop. Argyll and DCB, you have ispired me to make this one of the times I stop. I would put in the appropriate smiley but I have no idea how to on this forum, so just imagine whatever one you think is best.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Yes Argyll I would agree with that assesment.

There are most deffinetly way more factors affecting whether someone survives a given attack or doesn't than simply vehicle armour alone.

AS far as I'm concerned the ramblings between myself and SOP will stop. I have come to understand what he means through the PM and what his gripes were and well I have no desire to argue when I would much rather be learning and discussing.

I do have a question that I hope will put this discussion back on track. What is 10th group and what do they do?

In future I will make sure I am more specific in my comments because the last thing I want to do here is offend anyone. Especially those who are working for a good cause.

I'll admit that at first I was sceptical about SOP being someone who had first hand knowledge, because of the nature of the posting. I was more inclined to believe you were a teen posing as a BTDT as this site has had problems with them in the past. But if you can vouch for him, Argyll, well then that'll be the end of the scepticism.

To SOP, I appologize for not being specific and making comments that you obviously read and took offence to. That was not my intention. I am interested in whatever information you can provide us with.

[Argyll]

:hug: .......ok guys....time to put baby to bed,I think we've exhausted this one,lets put this one down to "communication" skills?

I can vouch for SOP.....he's good to go.........for an Aussie p-)

10th Gp(Special Forces Group) AKA: Green Berets AKA :Army Special Forces
AKA :Snake Eaters......Good guys!!
If any more info is required take it to PM's