Leaders demand U.S. to End 'Blockade' of Cuba

[Jeremiah]

By CIARAN GILES, Associated Press Writer Sat Oct 15, 6:18 PM ET

SALAMANCA, Spain - Leaders of the world's Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking countries demanded on Saturday that the United States abide by U.N. resolutions to end its "blockade" against Cuba, in a resolution that earlier drew criticism from the U.S. government.
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The U.S. Embassy in Madrid objected to the use of the word "blockade" instead of "embargo" in the statement by the 17 leaders present at the annual Iberoamerican summit. Spanish officials countered that "blockade" had been used in U.N. resolutions as well.

"We call on the United States of America to comply with that laid down in 13 successive resolutions approved by the General Assembly of the
United Nations, and to bring an end to the economic, trade and financial blockade it maintains against Cuba," one of a set of final statements said.

Foreign ministers from Latin America, Spain and Portugal at the summit had drawn up a similarly worded draft Thursday, irking the U.S. Embassy, which said it could be interpreted as a "kind of support for the dictatorship in Cuba."

The final statement on the embargo differed only in the title and final phrase by qualifying the word "blockade" with the adjectives "economic, trade and financial."

Spain's Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said similar wording had been used by the United Nations and nothing should be read into any change in the final phrasing.

Hours before the summit's end, the U.S. Embassy issued a statement saying Spain had excellent relations with the U.S. government.

Relations between Madrid and Washington suffered when Zapatero withdrew troops from
Iraq shortly after being elected in March 2004. Those relations have yet to fully recover.

The most notable absence at the summit was Cuban leader
Fidel Castro, who reportedly stayed home to coordinate relief aid for Hurricane Stan.

[Omaha]

Well of coarse that commie Spanish prim minister would say something like that. That is like me saying we should bomb Iran.

[Rictor]

I really should mention that the same resolution (to end the embargo of Cuba) was recently passed by the UN General Assembly for the 13th time in a row. Someone tell me, how is it that the US can rally around international law when it comes to UN resolutions against Iraq, Iran's nuclear program, the Hariri inquiry and so on, yet essentially spit in the face of the clear international consensus regarding the embargo of Cuba?

Well, they obviously can. I just wonder how anyone can rationalize the cognitive dissonace and still maintain the moral highground with regards to international law.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I think it should be removed. There is no logical reason why the embargo should remain. It's not as if Cuba is going to be used as a Russian launch pad now is it?

Embargo's hurt the people of a nation. Not the regimes that lead them.

[Deuterium]

I really should mention that the same resolution (to end the embargo of Cuba) was recently passed by the UN General Assembly for the 13th time in a row. Someone tell me, how is it that the US can rally around international law when it comes to UN resolutions against Iraq, Iran's nuclear program, the Hariri inquiry and so on, yet essentially spit in the face of the clear international consensus regarding the embargo of Cuba?

Well, they obviously can. I just wonder how anyone can rationalize the cognitive dissonace and still maintain the moral highground with regards to international law.

Is there any country that exclusively listens to the UN? Please tell me. IMO most countries act in their own interests and not what the UN thinks. If they happen to agree with the UN then fine, but they sure won't bend to the UN if they feel they are in the right.

[Rictor]

No, I'm pretty sure that most countries act in accordance with UN resolutions, out of weakness if nothing else. But you can't assume that most of the world's nations can and do violate UN resolutions, just because it's convenient to do so. It is necessary that all, or at worst most, countries follow UN mandates, or else you have a huge global free-for-all, and that tends to get very, very bloody. Which is why the UN was created in the first place.

Look, if you don't want to play ball, fine. That's your right as a nation. But in that case, stop reffering to So-and-So going against UN wishes as a reason to take political/economic/military action against that country. It's simple: if you don't follow the law, and that means all the time, then you have no right to preach to anyone else.

[MickCollins]

Oh screw the Cuban Government. We'll lift our blockade when Castro is surfing in the dirt.

[Omaha]

Well, I would say any country that has posed a significant threat of global de stabilization would deserve a trade embargo for at least 50 years... (provided the same leaders and government are/is in place)

But maybe that is just me.

You Europeans have an uncanny ability to forget everyone else's sins, other than America’s.


EDIT: "Embargo's hurt the people of a nation. Not the regimes that lead them"

Those people that are being hurt have already swam here.

[callous]

So the UN says we have to lift the blockade Cuba? I didn't know we had ships and planes surrounding the Island so people can't go there or trade goods with them. That's a blockade isn't it?

I just thought we decided that Americans can't do business with them or go there. I thought countries are allowed to decide who they do and don't do business with.

Well we better be careful the UN might sanction us with thier army. Oh wait a minute they don't have an army. I guess that means they need to shut the **** up.

[walford]

What this actually means is that the UN aspires to dictate our foreign policy concerning states with which we shall maintain diplomatic/economic relations. In other words, they purport to ORDER us to trade with a regime that holds itself into place by force.

Sorry. Our foreign policy is still subject ultimately to the mandate of the American people as is specified by the Constitution. The desires of an international debating society that includes dictatorships in its membership is of little value by comparison.

And let us not forget: Our 'friends' have been trading with Castro's tyrannical state even when he was 'exporting revolution' as a Soviet proxy during the Cold War. This still not prevent Cuba's economy from being a basket case.

[caridon]

So the UN says we have to lift the blockade Cuba? I didn't know we had ships and planes surrounding the Island so people can't go there or trade goods with them. That's a blockade isn't it?

I just thought we decided that Americans can't do business with them or go there. I thought countries are allowed to decide who they do and don't do business with.

Well we better be careful the UN might sanction us with thier army. Oh wait a minute they don't have an army. I guess that means they need to shut the **** up.
You might whant to take a look at the laws passed against cuba.
They are MUCH more restrictive than "We decide who we deal with".



/C

[Omaha]

And Castro doesn't deserve that?? I still do not see the connection between lifting the ban and WHY we should lift the ban.

Hell, I think we should stick it to Cuba when ever we can, and twice on Sundays.

[rocket13]

Lift the ban so I can finally go to vacation in Cuba. I heard it is a gorgeous place.

[Stormy]

You just want to smoke one of those expensive cigars and sip on a cool coconut while laying on a warm beach, eh ?

[khukuri]

in that case put similar things against other dictatorships, maybe pakistan and saudi arabia, or maybe not.

[rocket13]

You just want to smoke one of those expensive cigars and sip on a cool coconut while laying on a warm beach, eh ?


yup thats the plan, i have no beef with cuba....

[Kilgor]

Funny how no one cared about the blockade when cuba was living off the soviet union's handouts.

Sorry, but cuba bet its hand on the SU and it lost.

The sanctions should not be lifted until real human rights improvements and free open elections can be held.

[Teufel_]

Lift the ban so I can finally go to vacation in Cuba. I heard it is a gorgeous place.
Best place for vacation because there are no amers :)

[Kilgor]

Best place for vacation because there are no amers :)

Once castro croaks, hopefully the whole place will be opened up to tourism and it will be americans play park like a proxy disney world.

And lift the place out of the 1950's timewarp its stuck in.

Hell, they can even sell che shirts and beret's like mickey mouse ears.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Hey man CHe and Beret's ****ing rock.

[Kilgor]

Hey man CHe and Beret's ****ing rock.


Only if your a angst filled teenager thats living in your mums basement.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

What about a 26 year old angst filled dude living in the basement?

[Teufel_]

Once castro croaks, hopefully the whole place will be opened up to tourism and it will be americans play park like a proxy disney world.

And lift the place out of the 1950's timewarp its stuck in.

Hell, they can even sell che shirts and beret's like mickey mouse ears.
1950s timewarp? cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the US according to your own beloved CIA [factbook]. too much fox

[Kilgor]

Most of the cars are and buildings are totally run down, Usually 1950's models on their last legs and made to run a bit longer.

And that cuba has one of the longest living dictators still in power.

[Stormy]

He is right, a lot of areas there need to be refurbished. Beautiful buildings are run down.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56586

I remember making a post, I was actually shocked to see that Cuba made it on the "High" list when I seen the stats. Hey, some of my family were from Santiago De Cuba and the Pinar Del Rio area. So I have been told.

[Teufel_]

I was actually shocked to see that Cuba made it on the "High" list when I seen the stats.
Shocking that people who visited cuba rather than "researching" it based on fox broadcasts decided to put it on the high list. Just shocking.

[Omaha]

No...Cuba is still a **** hole. Regardless of what any broadcast says.


"cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the US according to your own beloved CIA [factbook]. too much fox"

A. I am sure if Cuba was a person, they would lie on their tax returns too.

B. That is like comparing all of Europe to a small town in Oklahoma. Maybe an overall percentage (assuming the expecting mothers don't die of starvation before hand) might be lower. But per capita, no damn way.

C. Are you defending Cuba?? I seem to be picking that up. I mean I know you are Anti-American, but Pro-Cuba?

Oh and..too much CNN for you.

[Kilgor]

Shocking that people who visited cuba rather than "researching" it based on fox broadcasts decided to put it on the high list. Just shocking.

Errr... fox reporting or no fox, cuba is a ****hole.

Even human rights watch reports confirm reports of the abuses under the castro dictatorship

"The Cuban government systematically denies its citizens basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, movement, and a fair trial. A one-party state, Cuba restricts nearly all avenues of political dissent. Tactics for enforcing political conformity include police warnings, surveillance, short term-detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, criminal prosecutions, and politically-motivated dismissals from employment. "

[callous]

Shocking that people who visited cuba rather than "researching" it based on fox broadcasts decided to put it on the high list. Just shocking.

What's shocking is people build boats out of anything they can (including old cars) to escape that paradise. Just shocking.

[sir-chimp]

Errr... fox reporting or no fox, cuba is a ****hole.

Even human rights watch reports confirm reports of the abuses under the castro dictatorship

"The Cuban government systematically denies its citizens basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, movement, and a fair trial. A one-party state, Cuba restricts nearly all avenues of political dissent. Tactics for enforcing political conformity include police warnings, surveillance, short term-detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, criminal prosecutions, and politically-motivated dismissals from employment. "


how else are you going to bring the wonders of communism to the common man.....its for the common good remember?

[Teufel_]

No...Cuba is still a **** hole. Regardless of what any broadcast says.This based on hours of research browsing conservative thinktanks?





A. I am sure if Cuba was a person, they would lie on their tax returns too.

B. That is like comparing all of Europe to a small town in Oklahoma. Maybe an overall percentage (assuming the expecting mothers don't die of starvation before hand) might be lower. But per capita, no damn way.

C. Are you defending Cuba?? I seem to be picking that up. I mean I know you are Anti-American, but Pro-Cuba?

Oh and..too much CNN for you.
A. I understand the CIA is a group of imbeciles that couldnt even translate intelligence which couldve stopped 9/11, but since Iraq has shown they are good at fabricating bull**** even if they suck at intelligence, I think the figures on Cuba in their factbook would be worse than reality, not cuban propaganda.

B. The figures are per capita, not in total.

C. Yes, I fully support Castro, great leader and great man, developed Cuba from a ****hole to a country with relatively good education and healthcare systems. Yes, Cuba could use measured reforms such as those being carried out in China and Vietnam, but it is preferable to almost any other country in Central America or the Carribean. Compare it to Haiti or the Dominican Republic. I just hope that he will not be succeeded by a deranged clown like Gorbachev who decides to implement democrazy at the expense of everything else.

Oh... and I dont watch CNN.


Errr... fox reporting or no fox, cuba is a ****hole.

Even human rights watch reports confirm reports of the abuses under the castro dictatorship

"The Cuban government systematically denies its citizens basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, movement, and a fair trial. A one-party state, Cuba restricts nearly all avenues of political dissent. Tactics for enforcing political conformity include police warnings, surveillance, short term-detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, criminal prosecutions, and politically-motivated dismissals from employment. "
Cuba is not a ****hole, especially not compared to its neighbors. It could use some measured reforms, but it is better than haiti or the Dominican Republic.

And what do you mean by "even" human rights watch? It has files on every country in the world, "even" the United States. Oh, and that paragraph doesnt make Cuba sound like a repressive ****hole, no paranoid mass exeuctions, no gulags, just blackmailing vocal idiots into shutting up.

[b.scheller]

My parents have been to Cuba, it's a wonderful little island, with wonderful people. I fear that once Fidel dies, Cuba will not progress for the better. Sure, they might get huge amounts of cash pouring in from the Americans, but, is it really all that better?

Look at the Dominican, so many people there, live in poverty conditions. Sure, the Cubans live in poverty now, but most are truly happy.

-b.scheller

[Kilgor]

Pre-Castro Cuba ranked third in Latin America in per capita food consumption but ranked last out of the 11 countries analyzed in terms of percent of increase since 1957. Overall, Cuban per capita food consumption from 1954-1997 has decreased by 11.47 percent. Per capita consumption of cereals, tubers, and meat are today all below 1950's levels. The number of automobiles in Cuba has fallen since the 1950's -- the only country in Latin America for which this is the case. The number of telephone lines in Cuba also has been virtually frozen at 1950's levels. Cuba once ranked first in Latin America and fifth in the world in television sets per capita. In 1996 it barely ranked ninth in Latin America and is well back in the ranks globally.

Cuba's rate of development of electrical power since the 1950s also ranks behind every other country in Latin America including Haiti. Cuban rice production has finally seen a minor increase above the 1950s levels. By virtually any measure of macroeconomic stability, Cuba was progressing at a greater rate in 1958 than it is today. The Castro government shut down the media sector in the 1950's, when the relatively small country had 58 daily newspapers of differing political hues and ranked eighth in the world in number of radio stations. However these claims are often disputed and the United States has been accused of trying to undermine Cuba.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

Typical of most "socialist paradises", the retoric of things being so much better under communist dictatorship is just orwellian bull****.

[Teufel_]

Yes, because under Batista there was beautiful freedom and democracy. After all he was backed by America, and we know every American backed regime is a shining example of human rights, for example Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

And wikipedia isnt a source, I can go in right now and edit that article to say Cuba has a higher GDP than America, it still would not be true.

[Omaha]

This based on hours of research browsing conservative thinktanks?



A. I understand the CIA is a group of imbeciles that couldnt even translate intelligence which couldve stopped 9/11, but since Iraq has shown they are good at fabricating bull**** even if they suck at intelligence, I think the figures on Cuba in their factbook would be worse than reality, not cuban propaganda.

B. The figures are per capita, not in total.

C. Yes, I fully support Castro, great leader and great man, developed Cuba from a ****hole to a country with relatively good education and healthcare systems. Yes, Cuba could use measured reforms such as those being carried out in China and Vietnam, but it is preferable to almost any other country in Central America or the Carribean. Compare it to Haiti or the Dominican Republic. I just hope that he will not be succeeded by a deranged clown like Gorbachev who decides to implement democrazy at the expense of everything else.

Oh... and I dont watch CNN.



No, common sense. When people would rather swim across shark infested waters, and drown then to live another day in a country you begin to draw the conclusion that it is a **** hole.

A.
There wasn't any direct intel that said who what and where about anything 9/11. Get your story straight before you really piss me off.

Another fine example of your bias. Thinking that they would be worse? Who is to say if the CIA fact book is wrong whether it is better OR worse?

B.
As in if they were really per capita and not actual total numbers put off to look as if the where per capita. Not that anything that comes out of that country is worth believing.

C.
"Yes, I fully support Castro, great leader and great man, developed Cuba from a ****hole to a country with relatively good education and healthcare systems."

HAHAHA...let me catch my breath. So you support a man who kills people for the simple fact of trying to leave. Punishes people for saying anything bad about anything Communist. And a man who holds his people captive for his own personal advancement?

I hope by all that is Holy (another thing outlawed in Cuba), that was a typo.

"Yes, Cuba could use measured reforms such as those being carried out in China and Vietnam"

Isn't that an oxymoron....reforms..and vietnam...Ha.

And China's best part outside of red square, is Hong Kong.


"democrazy"

Are you saying Democracy is a crazy system? Or even that Communism is a better system?


"Oh... and I dont watch CNN."

Could'a fooled me.

[Kilgor]

Btw, why dont you live there ?

let me guess, another young kid who grew up in a comfortable middle class democratic capitalist society who just craves "socialist paradises" like cuba ?

[sir-chimp]

I have always wanted to know after being told over and over again that cuba is a communist paradise, why I don't see boat loads of American refugees to cuba.....I mean you would think by now 90% of American college professors, hollywood, and suburban liberals would now be in the paradise known as cuba. Why after the fall of the soviet union and the fall of communism - did not all those russians and eastern europeans who emigrated to the US, not go to cuba for another dose of communist paradise?

[Teufel_]

No, common sense. When people would rather swim across shark infested waters, and drown then to live another day in a country you begin to draw the conclusion that it is a **** hole.Cuba is hardly unique in that people flee to the US, and I bet per capita more Mexicans cross over, even though Mexico is a wonderful, freedom loving pro american capitalist democracy.



A.
There wasn't any direct intel that said who what and where about anything 9/11. Get your story straight before you really piss me off.

Another fine example of your bias. Thinking that they would be worse? Who is to say if the CIA fact book is wrong whether it is better OR worse?
Direct intel no, "tommorow is zero hour" type stuff yes, and since 9/11 security measures have been raised for a helluva lot less than that. I suppose the entire system was too screwed up to effectively stop 9/11, but meh. Not translating "tommorow is zero hour" until the day after tommorow is not a very intelligent move.

Why would the CIA make Cuba appear better than it is? Is it employed by some sort of jewish conspiracy that wants to misinform the world by saying Cuba is a paradise? If anything it is worse than reality, such as some of their info on Belarus such as economic growth rates somewhere around half of those reported by Interfax subscription sources.



As in if they were really per capita and not actual total numbers put off to look as if the where per capita. Not that anything that comes out of that country is worth believing.
Here you go:
Cuba: mortality rate: total: 6.33 deaths/1,000 live births (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html#People)
USA: Infant mortality rate: total: 6.5 deaths/1,000 live births (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People)
Or maybe to you the CIA is a reliable source only when it comes to Iraqi WMD, with republican party website being a much better source about Cuba.




HAHAHA...let me catch my breath. So you support a man who kills people for the simple fact of trying to leave. Punishes people for saying anything bad about anything Communist. And a man who holds his people captive for his own personal advancement?
When has he killed people for trying to leave? Link please. The only case of this I can remember is when two men who hijacked a ferry were executed. Whats the penalty for hijacking in the US nowadays? Punishes people for saying anything bad? No, only active dissidents are prosecuted, there are no paranoid gulags in Cuba. Should opposition be allowed in Cuba? Yes, to an extent, but the country would implode like Russia if it fully transitioned. Hence it wont. So more power to Castro.

Holds his people captive for personal advancement? He has advanced all of Cuba with healthcare and education, the last personal advancement I heard of was him buying an Il-96 as a presidential plane. How dare a head of state have a modern aircraft to ferry him around!


I hope by all that is Holy (another thing outlawed in Cuba), that was a typo.Yes, holiness is outlawed, which is probably a reason John Paul II visited Cuba.




Isn't that an oxymoron....reforms..and vietnam...Ha.

And China's best part outside of red square, is Hong Kong.
Vietnam is implementing capitalism in slow measured steps, which is certainly helping their economy.




Are you saying Democracy is a crazy system? Or even that Communism is a better system?

What I mean by democrazy is the type of bull**** that occured in the fUSSR, where crime permeated every aspect of society, business went to the "free market" i.e. friends of communist bosses, communist bosses stayed in power via corruption and such, etc. Essentially Democrazy is what happens when you wake up one day and decide you want to become democratic immediately and with barely any planning. Communism is certainly preferable to this sort of "democracy".


Btw, why dont you live there ?

let me guess, another young kid who grew up in a comfortable middle class democratic capitalist society who just craves "socialist paradises" like cuba ?

Im not saying Cuba is a paradise, just that its better off than its democratic pro-american all that other bull**** neighbors.

[walford]

Im not saying Cuba is a paradise, just that its better off than its democratic pro-american all that other bull**** neighbors.Yes, indeed, folks there are people who actually believe this. Nobody who lives in Cuba does, but that's beside the point.

[Michael RVR]

My parents have been to Cuba, it's a wonderful little island, with wonderful people. I fear that once Fidel dies, Cuba will not progress for the better. Sure, they might get huge amounts of cash pouring in from the Americans, but, is it really all that better?

Look at the Dominican, so many people there, live in poverty conditions. Sure, the Cubans live in poverty now, but most are truly happy.

-b.scheller

sounds like you might actually know what you're talking about there, thanks :)

I'm with rocket13, to Cuba! I know people that have been and say its awsome.
:P

[Jobu]

Cuba is a ****hole and once Castro dies we'll turn it into another Vegas.

As for the UN, stfu and mind your own business.

[Zero Zen]

I'am just wondering if Castro dies...Is there a strong man successor to replace him or democratically elected?
Do you think he/she will open Cuba for US or stick with China's Economic model?

[Michael RVR]

Cuba is a ****hole and once Castro dies we'll turn it into another Vegas.


You say that like its a good thing there mate.

[Roaming East]

hmmm, ive been to the DR. beautiful place and nowhere near as bad as some of the stuff i see and hear about 'the paradise'

[futurepilot2004]

Cuba is a ****hole and once Castro dies we'll turn it into another Vegas.
.

I take it you`ve never been to Vegas then, anywhere is better than "The Strip".

[2Sheds_Jackson]

So the UN General Assembly votes a bunch of times to lift the embargo - so what? You know why there's General Assembly, and a separate Security Council? Because the General Assembly is a bunch of jackasses like Castro, 3rd and 4th world dictators who hate and fear the US. The Security Council is at least slightly more respectable.


1950s timewarp? cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the US according to your own beloved CIA [factbook]. too much fox

Remember, dear readers, that all facts and figures from Cuba - are of, by, and for the government. Everything from infant mortality to shoe size is parsed through the government before being disseminated to the outside. The Red Cross may go there looking for data, but they are not free to engage the health care system directly -the government handlers do the talking.

Don't forget who you're dealing with here. Hollywood may see him as kindly old Uncle Fidel, but the thousands of Cubans who've been sentenced to work the cane fields (or worse) because of their political views are not so kind to Fidel.

As to Cubans being "better off" than their pro-US neighbors - I doubt that thousands would risk drowning by floating to FL on a 50 gallon drum every year if they were happy with Cuba. I lived in Miami for years - they wash up every day...and of course those were just the ones who didn't wind up being shark bait.

[sir-chimp]

2sheds you big silly. do you really think the communist in control of cuba would be less to honest about the realities of cuba? I mean come on, every one knows that historically the living conditions of a one party communist state is about as good as you can get. Just the other day I was looking into moving to North Korea, I hear they have a excellent new diet plan.

[Teufel_]

Yes, indeed, folks there are people who actually believe this. Nobody who lives in Cuba does, but that's beside the point.Do I even need to compare Cuba to the Dominican Republic or any other such country?

[Omaha]

Maybe you should pick a country with a stable government...That entire island is garbage. All of those islands rely on tourism, that is all they have. And when your country gets knocked on it’s ass every year for 5 months out of the season by F5 hurricanes named Charlie and Stan, you aren’t gonna achieve much revenue to do anything.


What about Brazil? Chile? Argentina for God's sake?


You are wrong, simple as that. Best thing to come out of Cuba are the cigars.

[punanyswami]

[QUOTE=Teufel_]Do I even need to compare Cuba to the Dominican Republic or any other such country?[/QUO

Cuba might beat DR in some areas of education and health, but as far as technology and civil rights, DR is the victor.

[uhramechi]

teufel let me ask you??? are you spanish right??' a least you have to be european??


you live in capitalist societys with good quality of life, where you can do everthing you want you are so rich or so poor as you want, so why you defending the comunist and the socialism?
do you dont understaind n in 1991 was show those sysmte doesnt work

fidel castro and chavez will not make tha comunist work, both are criminals, both he takes advantage of the poor ones and their necessities to consolidated their power and sell to the people they fight for th epower and against the imperialism but both are liers and criminal they dont care the people, both are murders.

and in someway i understiand you before chavez i was a leftish and comunist too i love fidel i love the marxist ideas, i was sad for the end of the soviet union, when chavez came i spport him an dhis movement, but after of 2 years watching the thgs chavez do, what he are converting my country better say destroy my country i learn that he, that castro only are criminals

i learn the leftish ideology, the marxist, the socialism, and the comunist are the biggest sickknes of the human civilation so think well and look the reality over the romantic ideas that are like drugs you feel good and atractive but in the end will kill you

[Teufel_]

civil rights to the extent cuba differs are worth absolutely nothing

[oldsoak]

I think US trade with Cuba is probably the way to go - the reason why I say that is this - the only way you are going to get the next revolution going is by showing that the US isnt all bad. Trade foodstufts and low tech items if you are afraid of them turning into world leaders in technology on your hard work. Helps out US farmers and it gets awkward for the demagogues to ignore that the evil empire that is the US is feeding them. Buy their cigars - they are a damn fine smoke, and lo - they are selling their goods to the evil empire. Dollars are great way to change hard and fast ideas.

[walford]

Do I even need to compare Cuba to the Dominican Republic or any other such country?http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/cuba10306.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/27/cuba8500.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/22/cuba8480.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/17/cuba8126.htm
http://hrw.org/editorials/2003/cuba043003.htm
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/04/hcirtestimony041603.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/04/07/cuba5520.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/04/03/cuba5480.htm

[Teufel_]

Who cares? Freedom and democrazy dont put food on the table, provide education, or a functionong hospital

[walford]

Who cares? Freedom and democrazy dont put food on the table, provide education, or a functionong hospitalHa ha ha! You had me going there for a bit, I thought you were serious. That was a good one!

[Teufel_]

Seriously I dont give a flying **** about the extent of freedom, as long as only people who partake on political activity are prosecuted rather than random people due to paranoia. Cubas education and healthcare are much more developed them those in the Dominican Republic, Haiti, or any other ****hole enjoying its wonderful freedom

[WARPIG]

A few years ago, removing the embargo from Cuba wouldn't really have changed much. Maybe Cuba would have traded more with the US, maybe not. Florida would be a lot more crowded for sure. But with the very anti-US sentiment in the world right now, Fidel would surely be getting a ton of money poured into his country. Shiney new toys for the ARMY. Fidel would be sitting fat and sassy for sure. But the momentum from that anti-US vehicle that Fidel uses would carry him back into being dangerous. Look at what his pupil in Venezuela is warming up to. The embargo was starting to loosen up when Castro started cracking down on the people benefiting for it. So, now the embargo is getting tighter and there are more rules and prerequisites to get past them. Cuba just trades with someone else anyway.

All this talk in here about how the US is trying to bully Cuba into democracy. Why does the US have to bring democracy to Cuba? Mexico trades with Cuba.. what no influence there? France, Spain, Canada trades freely with Cuba.. I guess hugs and kisses don't work either. Why is it that people think that if suddenly the US starts holding hands with Fidel that we will have some kind of impact? Do US corporations and products have some kind of "freedom and liberty mojo" that a European companies don't have? Do our corporations have some sort of Moral Magic that Canadian or Mexican corporations are lacking?

Fidel has his country just the way he likes it. He keeps his power by demonizing the imperialist US. The embargo helps him do it. If Castro really wanted the embargo lifted.. it would be gone. There really isn't much Cuba needs to do to for that to happen. What that communism thing is in the way? Not. We trade with China pretty damn heavily.

The embargo exists because it serves the purpose that Castro wants. We keep it there so we can keep Castro at arms length from us. If Spain and the UN wants to help the people of Cuba... they can do so. No one is stopping them. It does make a convenient stick to bash the US with though.. doesn't it?

[Stormy]

I think Fidel is one of the richest men in the world. I forgot where I've see that. I don't think this embargo will be lifted, that is until the day Castro goes.

[MickCollins]

Who cares? Freedom and democrazy dont put food on the table, provide education, or a functionong hospital
If Cuban Communism provides education,healthcare and puts food on the table, why do so many Cubans do everything they can to float to the Florida Keys and get the fudge out of Cuba? Because, just maybe, the line fed by the Cuban Government is a load of feces.

[walford]

Seriously I dont give a flying **** about the extent of freedom, as long as only people who partake on political activity are prosecuted rather than random people due to paranoia. Cubas education and healthcare are much more developed them those in the Dominican Republic, Haiti, or any other ****hole enjoying its wonderful freedomThese are the same arguments made by the slave holders in the antebellum South, Machiavelli justifying the Divine Right of Kings, the Bolsheviks explaining why the Vanguard Party must have absolute powers, the NAZIs saying why Hitler needed to be dictator.

There are those who simply Know Better than the rest of us what we need and thus require absolute, arbitrary power to benevolently 'manage' society toward Utopian Paradise (http://utopia-unmasked.us/utopiatext.html). If one must crack a few recalcitrant heads every now and then, so be it.

Of course none of those who advocate for such theories put in practice would ever think of living in such a place.

[Teufel_]

Oh nazis did something, Im a nazi, oh noes. People have been advocating dictatorship before and after them. Like I give a **** what they did. Do you see Castro gassing anyone? No? Well isnt that a pity

[walford]

Oh nazis did something, Im a nazi, oh noes. People have been advocating dictatorship before and after them. Like I give a **** what they did. Do you see Castro gassing anyone? No? Well isnt that a pity[/quote]Castro's record of summary executions, kangaroo courts, and political prisoner Gulags is discussed at length in the links I posted earlier. Nice bit of cherry-picking there. What I am saying is that freedom and prosperity go hand in hand, while tyranny leads to war, poverty and oppression.

http://www.mises.org/rothbard/mes/images/Pg1365.gif

[quote=Murray N. Rothbard]...Every time a free, peaceful unit-act of exchange (http://www.mises.org/rothbard/mes/chap19.asp) occurs, the market principle has been put into operation; every time a man coerces an exchange by the threat of violence, the hegemonic principle has been put to work. All the shadings of society are mixtures of these two primary elements. The more the market principle prevails in a society, therefore, the greater will be that society’s freedom and its prosperity. The more the hegemonic principle abounds, the greater will be the extent of slavery and poverty...

[WARPIG]

Oh nazis did something, Im a nazi, oh noes. People have been advocating dictatorship before and after them. Like I give a **** what they did. Do you see Castro gassing anyone? No? Well isnt that a pity

Castro is a pussy cat. The only real threat he posed was during the Bay of Pigs. Even that was misjudged by the US. Now, I guess if you call shooting down civilian aircraft full of exiles and political opposition, or bombing your own hotels full of tourists, or holding several hundred political prisoners for speaking against your country a pussy cat.. then maybe I am exaggerating. But, compared to Hitler and Saddam.. he is just diet, decaf, lowcarb, lowfat evil dictator.

We don't really have any thing to worry about this guy. But, we aren't going to butter his ass anytime soon. The only reason he is getting any attention right now is.. he is anti-US.

[Teufel_]

]Castro's record of summary executions, kangaroo courts, and political prisoner Gulags is discussed at length in the links I posted earlier. Nice bit of cherry-picking there. What I am saying is that freedom and prosperity go hand in hand, while tyranny leads to war, poverty and oppression.

It has been a long time since summary executions im Cuba (these were also carried out by American puppet Batista). And freedom and prosperity go hand in hand far from always, again compare Cuba to the Dominical Republic. Or compare Russia and Chinas positions in the world. One of them massacred the protesting filth and one of them gave up to it.

[Stormy]

Hey guys. I found this. interesting stuff. View the entire segment ( loading time is very good, sorry 56Kers )

http://www.leisurecanada.com/index.asp?framebg.asp&/tf/content.asp?z=174



Guys! no messing with the DR. It's a very nice place. I lived there for 1 month in my life, had a good time. ;)

[walford]

None of the people in the region are floating makeshift rafts to get to Cuba and enjoy the 'free' health care, education, media, etc. -- even though it's on the way to the US. I still suspect that Teufel is having a bit of fun with us.

-- and this absurd discussion about whether Cuba is better than anyplace else is a diversion from the main topic, that the dictatorship-laden General Assembly wants to force the US to trade with another country contrary to the wishes of the American people as decided by our elected representatives.

[Skeletor]

There is no need for an embargo, Its silly really those who are losing out are the ones who need help the most.

So some of you want America to take Cuba back huh? You want it to be another whore-house for Yank tourists again? Seriously, some of you need to look past this "America **** Yeah!" mentality. The American way is not the best way for everyone and the rest of the world (especially the Developing World) are getting sick of your self-appointed role as the World's Policeman.

The American Government is violating the sovereignty of Cuba and this is illegal. If you want to know why Fidel is anti-American look at the history of Cuba and with particular detail that of American actions against him (both against his Government and him personally).

Some of you are sceptical of Castro, calling him a criminal. Well he is so committed to his revolution that he did not exclude his families land while he was redistributing among the poor. I do not know how anyone could believe he is one of the richest men in the world the amount of money that has gone through Cuba in the past 40 plus years is nothing compared to the wealth of those who run the Western World.

For the person who asked which countries follow every command of the UN look no further than New Zealand. Most small Nations believe a great deal in the UN because they are not as strong as the bigger Nations and therefore hang-on to the notion of equality despite size in the UN.

[Kilgor]

King Fahd Bin Abdul Aziz Alsaud Crown Prince & King/Saudi Arabia 80 $20 billion*
Sultan Haji Hassanal Bolkiah Sultan/Brunei 56 11 billion*
Hans Adam II Prince/Liechtenstein 58 2 billion*
Saddam Hussein President/Iraq 65 2 billion*
Queen Elizabeth II Queen/United Kingdom 76 525 million
Yasir Arafat President/Palestinian Authority 73 300 million*
Queen Beatrix Wilhelmina Armgard Queen/Netherlands 65 250 million
Fidel Castro President/Cuba 76 110 million

http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0317/068.html

Age then wealth estimate.

[WARPIG]

There is no need for an embargo, Its silly really those who are losing out are the ones who need help the most.

So some of you want America to take Cuba back huh? You want it to be another whore-house for Yank tourists again? Seriously, some of you need to look past this "America **** Yeah!" mentality. The American way is not the best way for everyone and the rest of the world (especially the Developing World) are getting sick of your self-appointed role as the World's Policeman.

The American Government is violating the sovereignty of Cuba and this is illegal. If you want to know why Fidel is anti-American look at the history of Cuba and with particular detail that of American actions against him (both against his Government and him personally).

Some of you are sceptical of Castro, calling him a criminal. Well he is so committed to his revolution that he did not exclude his families land while he was redistributing among the poor. I do not know how anyone could believe he is one of the richest men in the world the amount of money that has gone through Cuba in the past 40 plus years is nothing compared to the wealth of those who run the Western World.

For the person who asked which countries follow every command of the UN look no further than New Zealand. Most small Nations believe a great deal in the UN because they are not as strong as the bigger Nations and therefore hang-on to the notion of equality despite size in the UN.

Since you feel so strongly about the Embargo.. Why is it the US has to be the ones that are forced to trade with Cuba? How is that a violation of their sovereignty? Look at my previous post. Why is the US so important to the welfare of the Cuban People? Isn't the mighty EU able to save the poor Cubanos?

Your point on the UN is interesting. I guess it would depend on your opinion of the UN in general. Theoretically, I would really like to agree with you. The world would be in a far better circumstance if we all gave equal recognition to the UN and each other. The reality is not quite the same. The US has to manage and measure our involvement in International affairs as well as the UN on so much of a greater scale as the whole rest of the world. We are the single most powerful nation in the world and are expected to do more than the rest of the nations, regardless of our own interests. We have to weigh our own interests against the interests of other nations and the total benefit. Not any different than any other nation but when a behemoth like the US weights its own interests it automatically seems greedy and bullish. When we choose to continue to ignore a country like Cuba, we become the bad guys. The reality is, Castro is making things hard for his people. He could easily end this embargo.. but it won't do anything for his county. Think his country will get better because US money will be coming in instead of Euros?
I also believe he is doing a great deal to make his country a good Communist state. His ideals are very much intended for his people. But, he is a man, and his personal interests, and his own ego, take priority pretty often. This is the flaw that most Communist countries have. Their Supreme Leader, whether elected, appointed, or forcibly taken.. are men. Men are flawed, corrupt, fallible.

[Omaha]

Sovereignty of Cuba....haha. The only sovereignty Cuba has is the dirt under a Marine's boot in Gitmo.

Sovereignty...nice.


"There is no need for an embargo, Its silly really those who are losing out are the ones who need help the most."

So I guess the Canadian money only helps these people here, and the European money only helps those people over there. But the American money sector of people, well, since we don't like trading with countries that have threatened the entire world before, they are screwed.

Well, if they can get some drums, and maybe a few pieces of wood, they can come here. And live out their days in a real paradise. Not some **** infested rat hole you morons say is anything like it should be, what it had the potential to be.

Cuba is a beautiful country, too bad the average government worker is an economic retard. Russia saw the light, China is starting to, Cuba's train doesn't seem to be coming in though. Shame.

[Teufel_]

"Russia saw the light, China is starting to"
It is china that saw the light by massacring the protestors rather than handing over power to them.

[ENSIGN FOREVER]

USA Responds To Demand Of South-Of-The-Border Leaders For End To Cuban Embargo:

No.

[Laworkerbee]

So the UN says we have to lift the blockade Cuba? I didn't know we had ships and planes surrounding the Island so people can't go there or trade goods with them. That's a blockade isn't it?

I just thought we decided that Americans can't do business with them or go there. I thought countries are allowed to decide who they do and don't do business with.

Well we better be careful the UN might sanction us with thier army. Oh wait a minute they don't have an army. I guess that means they need to shut the **** up.

I love that skit so much!

[Laworkerbee]

"Russia saw the light, China is starting to"
It is china that saw the light by massacring the protestors rather than handing over power to them.

I'm sure your happy as hell over that one Troll

[Mouse]

How can you respect a comment like that laworkerbee? Callous you need to realise you don't end conflicts or solve global problems by throwing marines at it. Cuba is, in my eyes atleast, an LEDC, this means it needs all the help it can get. The USA is once again interfering in foreign issues which have nothing to with them and bullying Cuba. Those of you who are saying "stupid commies" or whatever are just plain stupid. Your own government brainwashed you to believe that there was a threat of Communism attacking the USA, and that Communism was infact a threat. You say Cuba has no sovereignty, they have to be pretty ****ing independent due to the noose you've put round the country. Sure, if you were saying you don't want the USA to do business with Cuba, then fine. But putting a trade blockade round a relatively harmless island and making it very difficult for any other country to deal with them, and ban any type of corporate business, such as McDonalds, which would actually boost their economy, from going near Cuba is just wrong. You're interfering in things that have nothing to do with you. Ever think that if you let corporate enterprises into Cuba, they would dissolve the oh so evil Communism in about a decade? Theoretically speaking of course.

Usually I wouldn't blame the general public on this one, but when you say things like "Well we better be careful the UN might sanction us with thier army. Oh wait a minute they don't have an army. I guess that means they need to shut the **** up." it makes me realise just how much of your country is full of uneducated rednecks. You really need to learn about global economics. You think the UN is so powerless? Well go and fight the Iraq war on your own without the UN allies backing you up. Watch you all friendly fire eachother to death and the Iraqis not lift a finger. Bush isn't the only one to blame here.

[Firetxmi]

CIA says Castro has Parkinson's disease


WASHINGTON (*******) - The CIA has concluded that Cuban President Fidel Castro suffers from Parkinson's disease and could have difficulty coping with the duties of office as his condition worsens, an official said on Wednesday.

The assessment, completed in recent months, suggests the nonfatal but debilitating disease has progressed far enough to warrant questions among U.S. policymakers about the communist country's future in the next several years.

"The assessment is that he has the disease and that his condition has progressed. There appear to be more outward signs," said an official who is familiar with the assessment.


Full article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051117/ts_nm/cuba_usa_castro_dc_2

[walford]

Let's not get our hopes up about Castro's condition. If he becomes incapacitated, he could be kept alive as a figurehead while the bureuacracy cranks on. This could already have been the case for some years already. The government is firmly entrenched. Supposedly his brother is next in line, but it doesn't matter.

Cuba is a closed society on a large island. Opposition of any kind is quickly quashed and information is strictly controlled. Does anybody know if there is even Internet access in Cuba?

[Stormy]

Cuba is a closed society on a large island. Opposition of any kind is quickly quashed and information is strictly controlled. Does anybody know if there is even Internet access in Cuba?

I was thinking the same but apparently they have some websites with Cuban addresses.

http://www.cubagob.cu/

http://www.ain.cubaweb.cu/

http://www.cubasocialista.cu/

http://www.lademajagua.co.cu/

[walford]

So apparently government officials have some Internet access. Probably the same as North Korea. I wonder how well Fidel gets along with Mr.Ronery...

[Stormy]

HAHA.. You think he sends him a box of cigars every few months ?

[walford]

So apparently government officials have some Internet access. Probably the same as North Korea. I wonder how well Fidel gets along with Mr.Ronery...HAHA.. You think he sends him a box of cigars every few months ?*fights urge to make Lewinsky reference*

[hughdotoh]

I see Warpig's point. Countries pretty much have the freedom to choose which other countries to trade with, so the Europeans, Canadians, Chinese, Russians, etc decided to trade with Cuba. About the only other country that won't do any trade with Cuba is the US. What's the big deal if the US won't trade with Cuba?

And with all that trade going on with other countries, one can rightly expect that Cuba ought to have raised its revenue pesos by now. Why are the Cuban businesses not expanding out of Cuba? And furthermore, why are Cubans, who on paper are the most pampered by their state, willing to risk everything to cross into Miami? Seems that all that trade hasn't done squat for the ordinary Pepe Cubano.

[caridon]

I see Warpig's point. Countries pretty much have the freedom to choose which other countries to trade with, so the Europeans, Canadians, Chinese, Russians, etc decided to trade with Cuba. About the only other country that won't do any trade with Cuba is the US. What's the big deal if the US won't trade with Cuba?

And with all that trade going on with other countries, one can rightly expect that Cuba ought to have raised its revenue pesos by now. Why are the Cuban businesses not expanding out of Cuba? And furthermore, why are Cubans, who on paper are the most pampered by their state, willing to risk everything to cross into Miami? Seems that all that trade hasn't done squat for the ordinary Pepe Cubano.

read upp on the Helms-Burton Act act and the other stuff that is the "blocade"
It is quite a bit more than "the US will not trade with Cuba". It is more "the US will use a big stick to stop anyone from trading with Cuba"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

/C

[ed316]

The blocade has been there for so long because Cuban exiles have a powerful lobby in Capital Hill and the politician in Florida are afraid of them because of when it comes to election times the exile will not forget. This blocade is stupid, we have trade and full diplomatic ties with Vietnam a country we were at war with, but somehow Cuba is dangerous.

[foxtrot023]

I think an ending of the embargo of certain goods and service will go a long ways to promote capitalism once Castro croaks. Having been to Cuba, those people are very capitalistic minded (except the gov.), and I am sure they will prosper once the current regime is banished. The only thing they need to look out for is Fidel´s brother.

[California Joe]

Presidents brother is Governor of Florida. Anti Castro Cubans and Disney run Florida. Not bloody likely the embargo will be lifted on his watch.

My Dad used to fly down there from Miami for 24 dollars and drink and whore around before Castro. Cuban women are hot. The beaches are like Miami. They have great boxers and baseball players.

Frankly, France and Germany are a bigger pain in the ass to the US nowadays than Cuba. China? Hmmmmm we trade with them. Japan? Yeah, that whole Pearl Harbor thing? We got over that. They're talking about trading with Vietnam. How many died there years after the Cuban missile crisis? It's all rather gay at this point. Like when you become President you take the Bay of Pigs Oath and swear you won't trade with them while Castro is still alive.

[foxtrot023]

Well of coarse that commie Spanish prim minister would say something like that. That is like me saying we should bomb Iran.

He ain´t a commie, he is a dumb@ss

[stonecutter]

The blocade has been there for so long because Cuban exiles have a powerful lobby in Capital Hill and the politician in Florida are afraid of them because of when it comes to election times the exile will not forget. This blocade is stupid, we have trade and full diplomatic ties with Vietnam a country we were at war with, but somehow Cuba is dangerous.

EXACTLY. Just like for Iraq, America is pretending the Cuba embargo is all about human rights, evil dictators, bla bla bla. Never mind the fact they didn't mind supporting the dictator Batista, who happened to cater to American business interests.

I for one will be going to Cuba this winter, partly for the cigars, beaches, and rum, and partly to inject my tourist dollars to their economy and say "f*ck you" to the U.S. embargo.

[California Joe]

inject my tourist dollars

Translation: "Hire all the hot young Cuban whores I can afford"

[foxtrot023]

and partly to inject my tourist dollars to their economy.

So that is how they call it now? woot

have fun!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Frankly, France and Germany are a bigger pain in the ass to the US nowadays than Cuba. China? Hmmmmm we trade with them. Japan? Yeah, that whole Pearl Harbor thing? We got over that. They're talking about trading with Vietnam. How many died there years after the Cuban missile crisis? It's all rather gay at this point. Like when you become President you take the Bay of Pigs Oath and swear you won't trade with them while Castro is still alive.

Yeah I lived in Miami for 5 years or so - let's just say Castro is not well liked. The issue is - Spain ceded Cuba to the US after losing a war with us. We then granted them independence - and US companies bought an assload of land, built factories, built industries there. Castro came in, and took all of it under state control - with no compensation to US investors who built Cuba's industries and agriculture with their money, or private landowners. That investment has still not been paid back to those it was stolen from...so the US is slightly upset about that. I love to hear Hollywood airheads go on and on about Castro & how brilliant he is. Sh*t, I could run a country if somebody else had paid for all the infrastructure too.


I really should mention that the same resolution (to end the embargo of Cuba) was recently passed by the UN General Assembly for the 13th time in a row. Someone tell me, how is it that the US can rally around international law when it comes to UN resolutions against Iraq, Iran's nuclear program, the Hariri inquiry and so on, yet essentially spit in the face of the clear international consensus regarding the embargo of Cuba?

Well, they obviously can. I just wonder how anyone can rationalize the cognitive dissonace and still maintain the moral highground with regards to international law.

The UN General Assembly has all the credibility and gravitas of a Dungeon & Dragons tournament conducted by the functionally retarded. There are people with voting rights there who have stripped white farmers of all their land, conducted ethnic cleansing, support forced abortions, etc - basically a nice collection of leaders and belief systems not capable of sustaining a civilization without outside help. The people wearing the daddy pants are on the Security Council - and the Security Council has said nothing on the issue.

[California Joe]

Hahaha, we also pretty much turned the place into a whorehouse, haven't you ever seen the Godfather? Castro is a huge ****head but I'm figuring that all the companies like Coke and General Mills and all those other companies have long since recouped their losses from the American public. The "US" is a little different from the "US fat cat companies that took full advantage of cheap labor and crooked government deals"

[WARPIG]

The UN General Assembly has all the credibility and gravitas of a Dungeon & Dragons tournament conducted by the functionally retarded.
Exceptional 2sheds. I need to find a way to work that quote into conversation.

[California Joe]

Quit practicing favoritism.

[WARPIG]

Quit practicing favoritism.

Why? Cause he has a green square and you don't?

[California Joe]

Exactly. It's wrong and you know it. How's the lack o' sleep working for you?

[Major Maxillary]

I really should mention that the same resolution (to end the embargo of Cuba) was recently passed by the UN General Assembly for the 13th time in a row. Someone tell me, how is it that the US can rally around international law when it comes to UN resolutions against Iraq, Iran's nuclear program, the Hariri inquiry and so on, yet essentially spit in the face of the clear international consensus regarding the embargo of Cuba?

Well, they obviously can. I just wonder how anyone can rationalize the cognitive dissonace and still maintain the moral highground with regards to international law.

The UN has no teeth, and without America the UN has no backbone.


You can't use justification as a reason for anything. justification is a relative truth, relied upon by the weak willed like a security blanket.

[BlackRain]

but somehow Cuba is dangerous.


Yeah, just the little fact that Castro and Che Guevara wanted to Nuke the eastern seaboard of the United States should not get in the way, right?

There were 162 warheads in Cuba, 90 for tactical use against an incoming attack and 60 for the missiles that were targeted on the US that would have killed 80 million Americans.



Castro, who had earlier stridently opposed removing the long-range missiles and Il-28s, made a strong pitch to keep the tactical weapons in Cuba during a Nov. 22 meeting in Havana with Anastas Mikoyan, the Soviet Communist Party official who handled most Cuba-USSR relations.

``Wouldn't it be impossible to keep the atomic weapons in Cuba under Soviet control without turning them over to the Cubans?'' Mikoyan quoted Castro as asking, in a Russian-language report on the meeting that he sent to Moscow and that was later found by Naftali and Fursenko.

Mikoyan reported that he quickly told Castro, on his own initiative, that such a deal was impossible. Khrushchev had already made the same decision, apparently believing that Castro could not be trusted with such weapons.

When the stunned Soviet ambassador in Havana, Aleksander Alekseev, asked Castro if he was really advocating that Moscow be the first to launch its nukes, Castro demurred.

``No,'' he answered, according to Alekseev's report to Moscow. ``I don't want to say that directly, but under certain circumstances we must not wait to experience the perfidy of the imperialists, letting them initiate the first strike.''

[ed316]

Yeah, just the little fact that Castro and Che Guevara wanted to Nuke the eastern seaboard of the United States should not get in the way, right?

There were 162 warheads in Cuba, 90 for tactical use against an incoming attack and 60 for the missiles that were targeted on the US that would have killed 80 million Americans.


How long ago was this? This is the pass Cuba repersents no danger to America or her intrest. If they were such a big threat then why didn't we invaded them after Grenada? cuban exiles have a STRONG lobby in Capitol Hill.

[stonecutter]

Translation: "Hire all the hot young Cuban whores I can afford"


Good one , heheh

[Wodan]

The UN General Assembly has all the credibility and gravitas of a Dungeon & Dragons tournament conducted by the functionally retarded. There are people with voting rights there who have stripped white farmers of all their land, conducted ethnic cleansing, support forced abortions, etc - basically a nice collection of leaders and belief systems not capable of sustaining a civilization without outside help. The people wearing the daddy pants are on the Security Council - and the Security Council has said nothing on the issue.

Yeah, countrys such as Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Sweden, Norway, Finnland, Icelanders, Isrealis and the like are "basically a nice collection of leaders and belief systems not capable of sustaining a civilization without outside help. "

you're an arsehole!

[BlackRain]

How long ago was this? This is the pass Cuba repersents no danger to America or her intrest. If they were such a big threat then why didn't we invaded them after Grenada? cuban exiles have a STRONG lobby in Capitol Hill.

What do the teach in history class these days? It is astounding that so many don't know what happened.

I will fill you in!

On October 28, 1962; Kennedy promised Khrushchev and Castro that the USA would never invade on the condition that the nuclear weapons were removed.

However, the proponent of starting a nuclear war that would have ended in hundreds of millions dead throughout the world is still in power -- Castro.

[foxtrot023]

However, the proponent of starting a nuclear war that would have ended in hundreds of millions dead throughout the world is still in power -- Castro.

Links?

thanks

[ed316]

What do the teach in history class these days? It is astounding that so many don't know what happened.

I will fill you in!

On October 28, 1962; Kennedy promised Khrushchev and Castro that the USA would never invade on the condition that the nuclear weapons were removed.

However, the proponent of starting a nuclear war that would have ended in hundreds of millions dead throughout the world is still in power -- Castro.

I know about this.........but this was 1962. Didn't all of our enemies wanted to nuke us? Why do we have relations with them and not Cuba. But who could actually press the button? Yes Castro was ready to sacrifice Cuba, but what does the embargo serve now in 2005?

[BlackRain]

Links?

thanks

1) Castro has failed to sign the Treaty of Tlateloco, which seeks to create a nuclear weapons-free zone in Latin America.

2)
Khrushchev documents in his memoirs how Castro pleaded with him to launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack on the U.S. in October of 1962. The telegram making the plea sits in the Kennedy Library today.

Some think Khrushchev's fear of Castro's officers somehow getting hold of the Nuclear buttons was a bigger factor in his decision to remove the Missiles than the "blockade" (in fact, 55 ships breached it) imposed by the Kennedy administration around Cuba at the time.

The prudence of Khrushchev's decision was revealed the following month by Castro's second- in - command, Che Guevara. "If the missiles had remained," he told The London Daily Worker in November 1962 "We would have used them against the very heart of the U.S., including New York. We must never establish peaceful co-existence. In this struggle to the death between 2 systems we must gain the ultimate victory. We must walk the path of liberation even if it costs millions of atomic victims."

Source: http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=912

[walford]

The UN has no teeth, and without America the UN has no backbone.I would reverse that. Continental Europe expects the American military to be an unpaid Praetorian Guard under a UN rubrick which they would direct. The only time the UN has backbone is when it comes to condemning Israel for surviving.

[foxtrot023]

1) Castro has failed to sign the Treaty of Tlateloco, which seeks to create a nuclear weapons-free zone in Latin America.

2)

Source: http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=912

thanks for the info!

[Mouse]

I think an ending of the embargo of certain goods and service will go a long ways to promote capitalism once Castro croaks. Having been to Cuba, those people are very capitalistic minded (except the gov.), and I am sure they will prosper once the current regime is banished. The only thing they need to look out for is Fidel´s brother.

Quoted for truth. My stepmum's Cuban, but don't think that makes me prejudiced. She's completely capitalist and although she has a deepest respect for her roots, like most other Cubans, she would rather Cuba went capitalist and expanded economically. That's why I was saying letting large corporate businesses (particularly franchises) would help Cuba out of its Communist era and help it develop into a vast and strong country. The main thing is to ensure the leader is suitable, I disagree with installation of leaders and dictators but it's certainly something I think the whole world should keep an eye on. If the right kind of leader got into power, it could do wonders for Cuba and for the global economy.

[walford]

...The main thing is to ensure the leader is suitable, I disagree with installation of leaders and dictators but it's certainly something I think the whole world should keep an eye on. If the right kind of leader got into power, it could do wonders for Cuba and for the global economy.Whether the leader is the 'right' one is far less important than the means by which the leadership is put into power. The government must be subject to a popular mandate, not the other way around.

People must be free to criticize officials and policy w/o fear of a late-night knock on the door. Those who work, save and/or invest must keep the products of their efforts. A Detainee must be charged with a crime of violating an objectively defined law or released.

Wanting of these and other universal principles that are essential for a free and prosperous society, Cuba will remain amongst the world's basket cases.

[Mouse]

I completely agree, although I wouldn't use the term basketcase... Since their ideology isn't insane, but certainly not what it could or should be... at least in my opinion.

But yes, essentially Cuba needs to be a free country, however it may result in riots etc, although I don't think the Cuban people are like that, most definitely not in my experience. I'm just going on what we've seen in Iraq for example. The thing is, Cuba wont be free until the fall of communism there and the successful accepted government is in place.

[Stormy]

I don't think we will see a riot there at the moment. I remember watching the Univision News and it showed people near a gate by some government building in Havana, it seemed like something was about to go down, perhaps a riot or some kind of rebellion, it was quickly suppressed.

[walford]

I completely agree, although I wouldn't use the term basketcase... Since their ideology isn't insane, but certainly not what it could or should be... at least in my opinion.When Utopian ideology is put into practice, the ideological part falls away fairly quickly. What's left is devoting the country's resources [i.e. human beings] toward holding and expanding power.

But yes, essentially Cuba needs to be a free country, however it may result in riots etc, although I don't think the Cuban people are like that, most definitely not in my experience. I'm just going on what we've seen in Iraq for example. The thing is, Cuba wont be free until the fall of communism there and the successful accepted government is in place.We need to get past this mindset that freedom is disorder and tyranny is stability.

Tyranny is the aberrational state of human affairs, not freedom. This doesn't mean that dictatorship is rare; the majority of the world's population continues to languish under governments held into place by force mostly by inertia and because too many people still believe that tyranny is the default and freedom is only something people can have if they have enough money to buy it.

Freedom is mankind's natural/optimal condition which is why the freer a society, the more peaceful and prosperous. The less free, the more war, poverty and oppression.

As our technological abilities to kill each other become more potent, the less the human race is practically able to live with tyranny anywhere on earth. But so long as enough of us think that dictatorships should be tolerated for the sake of stability, suffering and danger to all civilization will continue to plague mankind.