My experience and views as an Afghan...

[Rebel 7]

Hello,

Often times emotions run high when I think of the devastation that my country went through during the Soviet Union invasion and later the Taliban (Pakistani invasion). During the late 1980s the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan to support a puppet regime that represented an ideology held by less than 10% of the nation (many who converted to communism for fear of being executed if they didn't). The atrocities commited by the Soviet soldiers is something I can hardly bring myself to reason and understand. In Afghanistan, pregnant women were raped and their stomachs cut open and the baby taken out and thrown in the fire. This was done so that a new generation of Afghan youth didn't grow up to resist the Soviets. It makes me sick when I see these same communist bastards who openly allowed these atrocities in Afghanistan now trying to criticize the US government for their war on Iraq or the Taliban. The Soviet soldiers would go into a village, gang rape the women, execute the children and round up the men to torture. Often times, daughters were raped in front of their father while he was shot to death after seeing his daughters raped. Homes were torched, with babies inside. Often times, the torture included putting the men underneath the chains of the tank and running the tank over him. Other methods included attaching explosives to his genitals and blowing it up. In one of the threads on this forum, somebody mentioned whether it was true that Soviet soldiers were skinned by resistance fighters. The ex-Soviet soldier admitted that it was true. Now, let us reason why they would skin these soldiers alive. Originally when Soviet soldiers were captured they weren't killed, but were taken as prisoners. Later on when the Soviet soldiers conducted acts of extreme brutality on the population, the resistance fighters no longer cared. They would toture these soldiers alive for the destruction and hell they brought upon them, their families and their nation. I know some Soviet soldiers were good men, they became disillusioned and changed sides and became anti-Soviet resistance fighters working with the Mujahideen. These men could not understand how humans can become so savage to burn an innocent baby or skin a baby alive. For what? What would this achieve? A baby was not a politician or soldier. What was burning the little helpless child going to do? The day the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, my mother recalls how the sky seem to rain with Jets and helicopters as for 8 hours straight the sky was full of Soviet jets and helicopters. The Soviet soldiers went house to house in Kabul looking for young girls that didn't have husbands so that they could take them away to rape. My aunt who was 22 at the time forced herself into marriage because she knew the Soviet soldiers were looking for young unmarried girls they would take and rape by force. One family in Southern Afghanistan had to bear watching their child being hung from a tree and cut to pieces by a Soviet bayonet as the soldiers interrogated the parents about where the resistance were hiding (even though they didn't know anything). The Soviets shot anything, child, women, elderly, man, and animals. The Soviet military machine designed butterfly bombs that looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children who were curious and whom they knew would pick up these little bombs thinking they were toys. I look today at my young nieces and nephews and I think of how much it would take to bear watching them suffer the way Afghans did when they had to witness Soviet soldiers commit atrocities on them and their families. Today, some ex-Soviet soldiers may be proud that they served in the Red Army that invaded Afghanistan (because they had such strong military might and technology), but to me this is no different than the terrorist who claims to be proud of being a member of the Taliban or Al Qaida (ie. because they were able to attack a super-power like the US and destroy its Twin Towers), but soldiers who have a sense of humanity know better that when you decide to pick up a gun, that does not give you the right to target innocent civilians, children, and women with INTENT of killing and torturing them. Those who violate this are no longer soldiers but criminals disguised as soldiers. My uncle served in the Afghan Army while it was working with the Soviet Red Army and he tried to escape as he personally witnessed these atrocities. One story he told me a while back was this one time they were travelling in a convoy, and one Soviet soldier was trying to impress his superiors who were with them on the convoy, and a young girl ran by the convoy and went by a nearby river to collect water. My uncle turned around to light up a cigarette and heard a loud BOOM. He turned his head to the direction where the explosioin came and saw the little girl's flesh scattered all over with pieces of her clothes hanging from the flesh, and he saw the Soviet soldier smiling and puting down the RPG he used on her so that he could impress his superiors with his extreme sense of brutality. My uncle said that he grabbed the Soviet soldier by the throat and became screaming Russian profanity at him while he was restrained by his comrades. My uncle later escaped and was lucky to survive since the Soviets were looking for him and would have killed him since he had deserted them. Today, I cannot bring myself to understand how anyone involved with such an army would be proud of anyting. These experiences have led me to grow a deep sense of respect for the US army. They are the most moral and ethical soldiers I have ever seen as well as being highly skilled in military tactics. They do not gang rape women like the Soviet soldiers. They do not attach bombs on people for the joy of seeing the person blow up to pieces. They do not burn children alive in front of their parents, or cut babies open. These American soldiers have mothers, sisters, daughters, brothers, fathers, and they understand what being a human means, and how great the value of a loved one is. Many people wonder why the Americans have so much support among Afghans and why the Afghans don't see the American assistance as an invasion like they did the Soviet invasion. The reason is because the American soldiers don't rape the women, they don't force the Afghans to accept an ideology, they leave Afghans to worship freely, they help build rather than bomb day after day to force the people into submission. They don't make bombs with INTENT of killing children. That is why the Americans are and will be successful in Afghanistan. That is why they have the support of Afghans such as myself and that is why I respect the American army.

Here are some quotes from some articles about the brutality of the Soviets:

There are no human rights in Afghanistan." This was the conclusion of a team from the U.S. Helsinki Watch Committee that interviewed more than 100 Afghan refugees in September 1984. "They tied them up and piled them like wood," said a doctor who saw the Soviets punish an entire village after Afghan troops defected. "They poured gasoline over them and burned them alive. There were old and young, men, women and children. Forty poeple were killed." A resistance leader spoke of two old, blind men who stayed behind when a village was abandoned. "The Russians tied dynamite to their backs and blew them up." Another described how Russians held a child over a fire while questioning Afghan villagers about the mujahedin. In 1985, Soviet troops encircled five villages in northern Afghanistan, entered every house, and killed 600 civilians, including women and children, before putting the houses to the torch. Such atrocities were commonplace, and the devastation wrought by the Soviets resulted in near-famine conditions in many provinces; infant mortality caused by malnutrition reached 85 percent in the Panjsher Valley in 1985. (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "The Eighties Club: 47. Afghanistan")

A Soviet soldier comments about the atrocities: "A young soldier might kill just to test his gun, or if he's curious to see what the inside of a human being looks like, or what's inside a smashed head. But there is also the fact that if you don't kill, you'll get killed. It's a feeling of being drunk on blood. Often you kill out of boredom or because you just feel like doing it—it's like hunting rabbits." (For the entire report containing this quotation, go to the CNN's Cold War—Episode 20:"Soldiers of God".)


One 1986 report on Afghanistan read: "In three small villages near Qandahar, last year, the Soviets killed close to 350 women and children in retailiation for a Mujahidin attack in the vicinity. After slitting the throats of the children, disemboweling pregnant women, raping, shooting and mutilating others, the Russians poured a substance on the bodies which caused instant decomposition." (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "Stiff right jab: Politically correct butchers of the 20th century")

A gun is a tool that is harmless if the person holding it is human, but can be a wreckless machine of death if the person holding it is a inhumane savage.

I often avoided facing these realities and forced it out of my head because it hurt deeply, but I was told by my uncle long ago (when I was about 7) that it is better to confront reality than run away from it which is why I am here today to share these experiences with you guys and expose you to the reality that Afghans faced under the Soviet military machine. Before we are soldiers, we are human. Let us not forget that.

Take care....

Rebel 7

[Falco]

Damn, that was some testamonie.

[Rebel 7]

Hello,

Often times emotions run high when I think of the devastation that my country went through during the Soviet Union invasion and later the Taliban (Pakistani invasion). During the late 1980s the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan to support a puppet regime that represented an ideology held by less than 10% of the nation (many who converted to communism for fear of being executed if they didn't). The atrocities commited by the Soviet soldiers is something I can hardly bring myself to reason and understand. In Afghanistan, pregnant women were raped and their stomachs cut open and the baby taken out and thrown in the fire. This was done so that a new generation of Afghan youth didn't grow up to resist the Soviets. It makes me sick when I see these same communist bastards who openly allowed these atrocities in Afghanistan now trying to criticize the US government for their war on Iraq or the Taliban. The Soviet soldiers would go into a village, gang rape the women, execute the children and round up the men to torture. Often times, daughters were raped in front of their father while he was shot to death after seeing his daughters raped. Homes were torched, with babies inside. Often times, the torture included putting the men underneath the chains of the tank and running the tank over him. Other methods included attaching explosives to his genitals and blowing it up. In one of the threads on this forum, somebody mentioned whether it was true that Soviet soldiers were skinned by resistance fighters. The ex-Soviet soldier admitted that it was true. Now, let us reason why they would skin these soldiers alive. Originally when Soviet soldiers were captured they weren't killed, but were taken as prisoners. Later on when the Soviet soldiers conducted acts of extreme brutality on the population, the resistance fighters no longer cared. They would toture these soldiers alive for the destruction and hell they brought upon them, their families and their nation. I know some Soviet soldiers were good men, they became disillusioned and changed sides and became anti-Soviet resistance fighters working with the Mujahideen. These men could not understand how humans can become so savage to burn an innocent baby or skin a baby alive. For what? What would this achieve? A baby was not a politician or soldier. What was burning the little helpless child going to do? The day the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, my mother recalls how the sky seem to rain with Jets and helicopters as for 8 hours straight the sky was full of Soviet jets and helicopters. The Soviet soldiers went house to house in Kabul looking for young girls that didn't have husbands so that they could take them away to rape. My aunt who was 22 at the time forced herself into marriage because she knew the Soviet soldiers were looking for young unmarried girls they would take and rape by force. One family in Southern Afghanistan had to bear watching their child being hung from a tree and cut to pieces by a Soviet bayonet as the soldiers interrogated the parents about where the resistance were hiding (even though they didn't know anything). The Soviets shot anything, child, women, elderly, man, and animals. The Soviet military machine designed butterfly bombs that looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children who were curious and whom they knew would pick up these little bombs thinking they were toys. I look today at my young nieces and nephews and I think of how much it would take to bear watching them suffer the way Afghans did when they had to witness Soviet soldiers commit atrocities on them and their families. Today, some ex-Soviet soldiers may be proud that they served in the Red Army that invaded Afghanistan (because they had such strong military might and technology), but to me this is no different than the terrorist who claims to be proud of being a member of the Taliban or Al Qaida (ie. because they were able to attack a super-power like the US and destroy its Twin Towers), but soldiers who have a sense of humanity know better that when you decide to pick up a gun, that does not give you the right to target innocent civilians, children, and women with INTENT of killing and torturing them. Those who violate this are no longer soldiers but criminals disguised as soldiers. My uncle served in the Afghan Army while it was working with the Soviet Red Army and he tried to escape as he personally witnessed these atrocities. One story he told me a while back was this one time they were travelling in a convoy, and one Soviet soldier was trying to impress his superiors who were with them on the convoy, and a young girl ran by the convoy and went by a nearby river to collect water. My uncle turned around to light up a cigarette and heard a loud BOOM. He turned his head to the direction where the explosioin came and saw the little girl's flesh scattered all over with pieces of her clothes hanging from the flesh, and he saw the Soviet soldier smiling and puting down the RPG he used on her so that he could impress his superiors with his extreme sense of brutality. My uncle said that he grabbed the Soviet soldier by the throat and became screaming Russian profanity at him while he was restrained by his comrades. My uncle later escaped and was lucky to survive since the Soviets were looking for him and would have killed him since he had deserted them. Today, I cannot bring myself to understand how anyone involved with such an army would be proud of anyting. These experiences have led me to grow a deep sense of respect for the US army. They are the most moral and ethical soldiers I have ever seen as well as being highly skilled in military tactics. They do not gang rape women like the Soviet soldiers. They do not attach bombs on people for the joy of seeing the person blow up to pieces. They do not burn children alive in front of their parents, or cut babies open. These American soldiers have mothers, sisters, daughters, brothers, fathers, and they understand what being a human means, and how great the value of a loved one is. Many people wonder why the Americans have so much support among Afghans and why the Afghans don't see the American assistance as an invasion like they did the Soviet invasion. The reason is because the American soldiers don't rape the women, they don't force the Afghans to accept an ideology, they leave Afghans to worship freely, they help build rather than bomb day after day to force the people into submission. They don't make bombs with INTENT of killing children. That is why the Americans are and will be successful in Afghanistan. That is why they have the support of Afghans such as myself and that is why I respect the American army.

Here are some quotes from some articles about the brutality of the Soviets:

There are no human rights in Afghanistan." This was the conclusion of a team from the U.S. Helsinki Watch Committee that interviewed more than 100 Afghan refugees in September 1984. "They tied them up and piled them like wood," said a doctor who saw the Soviets punish an entire village after Afghan troops defected. "They poured gasoline over them and burned them alive. There were old and young, men, women and children. Forty poeple were killed." A resistance leader spoke of two old, blind men who stayed behind when a village was abandoned. "The Russians tied dynamite to their backs and blew them up." Another described how Russians held a child over a fire while questioning Afghan villagers about the mujahedin. In 1985, Soviet troops encircled five villages in northern Afghanistan, entered every house, and killed 600 civilians, including women and children, before putting the houses to the torch. Such atrocities were commonplace, and the devastation wrought by the Soviets resulted in near-famine conditions in many provinces; infant mortality caused by malnutrition reached 85 percent in the Panjsher Valley in 1985. (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "The Eighties Club: 47. Afghanistan")

A Soviet soldier comments about the atrocities: "A young soldier might kill just to test his gun, or if he's curious to see what the inside of a human being looks like, or what's inside a smashed head. But there is also the fact that if you don't kill, you'll get killed. It's a feeling of being drunk on blood. Often you kill out of boredom or because you just feel like doing it—it's like hunting rabbits." (For the entire report containing this quotation, go to the CNN's Cold War—Episode 20:"Soldiers of God".)


One 1986 report on Afghanistan read: "In three small villages near Qandahar, last year, the Soviets killed close to 350 women and children in retailiation for a Mujahidin attack in the vicinity. After slitting the throats of the children, disemboweling pregnant women, raping, shooting and mutilating others, the Russians poured a substance on the bodies which caused instant decomposition." (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "Stiff right jab: Politically correct butchers of the 20th century")

A gun is a tool that is harmless if the person holding it is human, but can be a wreckless machine of death if the person holding it is a inhumane savage.

I often avoided facing these realities and forced it out of my head because it hurt deeply, but I was told by my uncle long ago (when I was about 7) that it is better to confront reality than run away from it which is why I am here today to share these experiences with you guys and expose you to the reality that Afghans faced under the Soviet military machine. Before we are soldiers, we are human. Let us not forget that.

Take care....

Rebel 7

A typo mistake...."During the late 1980s"...was meant to be "During the late 1970s"

[Jack Mehoff]

Where is Kingpin?

[German_American]

Some powerful stuff, please post any other info you can. I don't mean to sound ignorant or anything, but is that the same general from the northern alliance that you have.

[George W. Bush]

Those butterfly bombs sounds like small antipersonnel mines dropped from helicopters. They were shaped to always land upright and when ya step on em... POP. No more foot.

Also the Russian RPG Soldier would have to dismount from his vehicle to fire the RPG. He'd have to stop the whole convoy so he could blow up a little girl. Ever tried firing an RPG-7 inside a vehicle? Better have good life insurance.

[Javehn]

Also the Russian RPG Soldier would have to dismount from his vehicle to fire the RPG. He'd have to stop the whole convoy so he could blow up a little girl. Ever tried firing an RPG-7 inside a vehicle? Better have good life insurance.
Wangchung .... :|

That's one hell of a story , by the way . What is your background ?
Those stories sounds very personal...I remember hearing about the puppet bombs , but i don't remember about what it was spoken .

[Herrmannek]

Those stories sounds very personal...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8128

[Javehn]

Those stories sounds very personal...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8128

Hmm , i see , i see . Interesting to hear the responce there . Also some things that is talled in here , i bellieve to be exadurated in some way , but i can't be the judge of it . My father did 1 tour there , but this sounded strange to him . Those things are probably over exadurated , but it still interesting to hear the other side about that .

[Rebel 7]

Those butterfly bombs sounds like small antipersonnel mines dropped from helicopters. They were shaped to always land upright and when ya step on em... POP. No more foot.

Also the Russian RPG Soldier would have to dismount from his vehicle to fire the RPG. He'd have to stop the whole convoy so he could blow up a little girl. Ever tried firing an RPG-7 inside a vehicle? Better have good life insurance.

Umm......the weapon he used was something my uncle didn't go into detail with...but if I remember correctly it was a gernade...I was assuming it was an RPG....
Oh...and there was incidents where RPG's were fired from vehicles.....some Mujahideen soldiers were so daring they fired it while mounted on a horse...

[Rebel 7]

Some powerful stuff, please post any other info you can. I don't mean to sound ignorant or anything, but is that the same general from the northern alliance that you have.

Yes, that pic in the avatar is Commander Ahmad Shah Massoud.

[Rebel 7]

I want to upload a photo but I don't know how. It is not from a website. It is a scanned picture in my hard-drive. Most forums have a browse button at the bottom of the message box where you can click and browse your hard-drive and upload a pic. Why isn't that feature available here?

[SFontaine]

Hey Rebel send the picture to me at WinterJet@hotmail.com and I'll host it for you.

[Rebel 7]

Hey Rebel send the picture to me at WinterJet@hotmail.com and I'll host it for you.

I sent the pic with the paragraph accompanying the pic to your email. Thanks for you help.

[SFontaine]

http://75thrangers.us/~fontaine.s/panjtruck.jpg


Salaam,

The Servis-e-Panjshir (meaning Bus of Panjshir is farsi) truck was actually a deadly Soviet helicopter shot down over the Panjshir valley by one of Massoud's courageous soldiers. A bright Panjshiri mechanic took the corpse of the helicopter and turned it into a bus to carry supplies up and down the Panjshir valley for the resistance and it often served as a portable tea-restaurant serving tea to the tired resistance fighters. The Soviet military tacticians and advisors soon heard that their state-of-the-art helicopter was shot down over Panjshir and that the corpse was being paraded around Panjshir in the form of a bus. The extreme shame and embarassment they felt brought them to the conclusion that they had to retrieve that helicopter (turned bus) with whatever means they could. They even tried to contact Massoud and exchange numerous mountain landrovers for the bus, but were unsuccessful. The Soviets knew they had to take the bus back by force if necessary and so they began to plot another major offensive on the Panjshir valley. Massoud knew the Soviets were coming for the bus and so he evacauted the Panjshir valley and left the bus for the Soviets to take. When the Soviets attacked, the bus was found. The soldiers went to open the door and the last thing they saw was a bright light accompanied by a loud BANG! Massoud had rigged the bus with explosives and left it for the Soviets to take.

Please post the above paragraph with the picture..
thank you for your help


Awesome story I say.

[ibstolidude]

The Soviet military machine designed butterfly bombs that looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children who were curious and whom they knew would pick up these little bombs thinking they were toys.

I am argueing neither for or against Soviet actions but do you actually beleive that the PFM1 was designed so that it "looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children"

Butterfly is a more common name of the PFM-1 also known in Afghanistan as a "Green Parrot". The shape was explained to me to assist in the method of delivery as a scatterable mine and so that it would not detonate upon scattering.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/minerats/figures/mine3.gif

[usa320]

Thanks- i think alot of people in this forum needed to hear this.

I find it deep indeed.

The people of Afghanistan have great culture, and part of what makes them so great, is the struggle that they have gone through. Thank god they now are on their way to a better life with the help of the US and Canada and some European countries. Afghans have alot of stories- not all of them pleasent, but i think they are things that alot of people need to hear, to realize how bad things really were in Afghanistan under the taliban and soviet rule.

[Rebel 7]

The Soviet military machine designed butterfly bombs that looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children who were curious and whom they knew would pick up these little bombs thinking they were toys.

I am argueing neither for or against Soviet actions but do you actually beleive that the PFM1 was designed so that it "looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children"

Butterfly is a more common name of the PFM-1 also known in Afghanistan as a "Green Parrot". The shape was explained to me to assist in the method of delivery as a scatterable mine and so that it would not detonate upon scattering.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/minerats/figures/mine3.gif

The butterfly bomb was scattered in areas with a high concentration of children. The butterfly bomb was not the only type used. Certain bombs were made to look like toys and plastic dolls because the Soviets knew that children would be attracted to these objects. This was done with INTENT, because why would they make bombs to look like toys unless they intended to kill children?!

[Supes]

Rebel 7, is your avator a pic of the great Massoud?

Edit: Didn't read the whole thread,DOH!

[ibstolidude]

The butterfly bomb was scattered in areas with a high concentration of children. The butterfly bomb was not the only type used. Certain bombs were made to look like toys and plastic dolls because the Soviets knew that children would be attracted to these objects. This was done with INTENT, because why would they make bombs to look like toys unless they intended to kill children?!

Do you have anything that would decribe such a munition, was it a factory produced or a ****ytrapped item.
Do you have any other sources on this? Pictures first hand accounts, whatever it may be, that one can see on their own?

[Midav]

Very powerful and thank you for sharing.

I also heard of the stories of people being skinned then left in the hot sun and other stories.

When I lived in Germany, I can't remember if it was focus or spiegel, that had a long article and showed some pictures, including the bombs that were placed inside toys, pens and other items.

[obd]

I have heard also that the soviets used mines which looked like toys but I do not think the "butterfly mine" was one such weapon. The mine's shape, as mentioned earlier, was actually designed to assist dispersal at altitude to cover the most area and to slow its rate of disent so it wouldnt explode upon contact. Doubtless many afghan children did pick them up mistaking them as toys but they are not a good example of soviet "intent" to kill children. A better example would just be the numerous acts of genocide by Soviet soldiers or just the fact that the soviets planted millions of mines all over the place with total disregard for ANYONE, and often even stepped on thier own mines if not careful. Also, I have heard from many sources, both soviet and Afghan, of that particular instance where the Soviets gang raped, murdered, and then poured a very mysterious chemical all over the poeple which caused near instant decomposition. Does anyone have any information on what that chemical was. I take it that at the time it was a classified and newly developed chemical weapon being tested in theatre but I was hoping information about what it was has come out over the long years since the Siviet Afghan war....????

[anonymous individual]

One 1986 report on Afghanistan read: "In three small villages near Qandahar, last year, the Soviets killed close to 350 women and children in retailiation for a Mujahidin attack in the vicinity. After slitting the throats of the children, disemboweling pregnant women, raping, shooting and mutilating others, the Russians poured a substance on the bodies which caused instant decomposition." (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "Stiff right jab: Politically correct butchers of the 20th century")

That sounded like the act of certian German troopers, who would go to closest village and terminate the entire population there, in respond to an attack.

[Midav]

I thought this was interesting.

A Former Soviet General’s View on Afghanistan

CI Centre Professor Oleg Kalugin is a retired KGB Major General and a former People’s Deputy of the USSR

The Soviet generals defeated in Afghanistan after nine years of futile efforts to impose a Soviet-style regime on that country are attempting now to scare the US by prospects of “another Vietnam” and “sea of bloodshed” if America retaliates militarily to the terrorist attacks on its soil and crush the Moslem extremists and their sponsors in their hideouts.

By drawing a parallel between the USSR and the USA in the Afghan context and suggesting the US will lose the war, the Soviet comrades either forget or deliberately distort historic facts.

1. Several months after April 1978 when the Afghan communists staged a coup in Kabul, the Noor Taraki government enjoyed considerable support among the Afghan people. The promised reforms created the atmosphere of hope and expectations.

The first official KGB visit to Kabul to sign a treaty of cooperation with the Afghan security service took place in August of that year and we, members of the Soviet delegation, could walk and travel around freely. The only trip by car we were advised against by the Afghan security was to Jalalabad, a hundred miles east of Kabul, where sporadic outbursts of violence were reported. Otherwise, the countryside was quiet. Things started to change when the militant atheists in the Kabul government launched a major campaign against Islam which resulted in the executions of hundred of mullahs across the country.

This campaign culminated in the brutal murder on the night of January 22, 1979, of the Chief mullah (Murid) of Afghanistan Hazrat Mojadeddi, his four sons and six nephews. The Chief of the Afghan security service Sarvari personally executed the whole family. Ever since, it became clear that the Moslems will never forgive the Soviets, the Communists, the Atheists their atrocities. They will die, but never give up in their fight against the godless nation. That’s how the Holy war against the infidels in Kabul and their sponsors in Moscow started. The Afghan freedom fighters were not terrorists. They defended their faith, their way of life, their homeland.

Unlike the Soviets two decades ago, the US and the entire civilized world are challenged today by Moslem extremists and bigots who have desecrated and defiled their own faith by murdering thousands of innocent civilians, viciously attacking the country which has been generously providing economic and humanitarian aid to dozens of foreign lands, granting refuge, shelter and opportunities for decent life to millions of immigrants irrespective of their race, faith or creed.

2. In the early fighting, the Afghan mujaheddins were armed mainly with primitive rifles, but as the war progressed, they acquired modern weapons including rockets that they used to attack the Soviet troops, their aircraft, and Afghan government installations. It was the USA and other Western powers that supplied the rebels with arms and ammunition. It was their multimillion-dollar material and worldwide moral support which allowed the Afghan resistance movement to dramatically increase pressure on the Soviets, inflict heavy casualties on their army, and eventually make them withdraw from the country. [CI Centre note: a recent article in a newspaper said that the US spent $3.5 billion helping the resistance]

Who is going to provide military assistance to the terrorists this time? Russia, China? No. Iran? Unlikely. Iraq? Possibly, but then it will have to pay a heavy price. In the meantime, sealing off the Afghan borders and strictly enforced international arms embargo will help stop the shipment of arms to the terrorists and frustrate their resistance.

Incidentally, had the North Vietnamese not received heavy moral, military and economic aid from the USSR and China, they would have never won the war.

3. The Soviet model of economic development perceived by many developing nations as a way to speedy solution of their miseries proved to be a dangerous illusion. Had the Soviets offered the Afghan people some semblance of economic viability, the tide of events that followed could have been quite different. But what kind of economic assistance or inspiration could the Kremlin give to other nations when the Soviet people themselves barely made their ends meet and the Soviet economy was on the brink of collapse?

Let’s look back into history. After the defeat, by the Allied Forces, of Nazi Germany and militaristic Japan in 1945, the USA initiated a comprehensive program of economic reconstruction of war-ravaged nations. The Marshall Plan along with de-Nazification of Germany transformed not only the conquered country, but also Europe, turned its Western part into a prosperous and peaceful continent averse to communist and other forms of extremism.

Occupied Japan, with America’s help, became a leading industrial power, free of revenge-seeking sentiments.

In this context, destitute, devastated Afghanistan is no match to Nazi German or Japan and it’s the Soviets who bear historic responsibility for what happened to that country after they intervened militarily. So, there is after all a difference between the US and the Soviet approach to the same problems the world has been facing since World War II. Or comrades generals prefer to ignore it?

I’m not an admirer of Russian President Putin, but he was right when he compared the crimes committed by the Moslem extremists with those of the Nazis. It is precisely for this reason that the civilized world should treat these savages as Nazis. The plague of the 21st Century must be stamped out before it plunges the human race into an abyss.

September 20, 2001

http://ctstudies.com/Document/Kalugin_Afghanistan.htm

[Merik]

Thanks for sharing your story with us Rebel7. Also greatly appreciated is your praise for our men and women in uniform over there.

P.S. Just wanted to say that I think that Massoud was a incredible leader and I respect how much you guys still revere him today.

[aFgHaNibOi]

Whoah, another Afghan. Cool. Khosh amadiy, and, shah/pakhair raghley... ;)

[Sergei]

Why is my bull**** detector ringing?

Pop -quiz

1. Identify the villages and timing of a supposed massacres that took place. Now every responsible army keeps tracks of its activity, such a massacre would certainly be present in the archives of Soviet Army. Now you wouldn't doubt the responsibility of Soviet Army, would you?

2. Prove that you are an afghan. Saying a few nice things in Pustu would be acceptable like "I used to be employed by Tsarandoi but I wanted to steal more so they kicked me out". This is just to suppress my suspicions.

Чей детский сад только что выпусил в форум новый отряд кадетов? И главное кто им платит?

best regards,
Michael Jackson aka Mickey Mouse

[Schwabo Elite]

I see a fight coming up here... :(

[Argyll]

Rebel 7 wrote

These experiences have led me to grow a deep sense of respect for the US army. They are the most moral and ethical soldiers I have ever seen as well as being highly skilled in military tactics. They do not gang rape women like the Soviet soldiers. They do not attach bombs on people for the joy of seeing the person blow up to pieces

You obviously were not aware of some of the acts commited by GI's in Vietnam then?You ever heard of Mi lei?
Indeed it's good to get the opposite side of the coin,concerning Soviet/Afghan wars......I'd like to hear what 16 OBr SPn has to say in reply?
Both sides were as guilty of barbarity in that war,indeed the history of the Mujihadeen has never seen them favouarble to POW's,I'm sure there were horror stories when the British tried and failed during the 1800's to colonise Afghanistan.
Did you witness these things at 1st hand or was the stories and tales passed down through Generations? I too can see a flame war start......and once again obd is getting himself involved in something he again has no 1st hand knowledge of by stating thing like "I heard this and I heard that" .not everything you read is the truth laddie!!,I'd love to know where you hear all this stuff,considering you must be all of what 16?


Just to point out something for my US buds,this is not an attack on the US in wartime by mentioning attrocities,I'm pretty sure that if we dig deep enough we can find such acts commited by all Armed Forces......we all have skeletons somewhere!

[Russian Texan]

I know that "bad russians" sells, but this.... :cantbeli:

My dear afgan friend, I think that your "experienses" are pure BS or may be you are just looking for some attention on this forum.

#1 I have also heard stories from russian Afgan war vets about mines that looked like toys except there is one "minor" difference in details - like who distributed them....

#2 So let me see: One part of the Soviet forces in Afganistan is building schools, theatres, hospitals, delivering babies, treating kids injured by mines and shootings, send them to russian resorts for reabilitation, while another rampages through the country looking for unborn babies to kil and cut in piecesl... yeah, sure.

#3 "Russians mass raping Afgani women" DUDE, HAVE YOU SEEN AFGANI WOMEN? maybe there is a reason they wear burka..... (no offense to afgani women but they are not exactly a Playboy material, I have seen the one that they sent to the last "Miss Universe" and she is not exactly on my "to do" list) Did the rapes happen - probably, but you make it sound like entire soviet divisions were roaming around looking for some one to rape.

#4 Why, tell me why are so many in Afganistan are remembering the days of the soviet invasion as the prosperous years: the yeras when they got education in soviet universities, yeras when they had electricity and running water, years when their kids went to school, years when the modern buildings, schools and parks were erected, why?

Granted russians did destroy villages with airstrikes, created minefields, and yes they did shoot mujahadeen colaborators and you know what - units that practiced that usually had the quitest "responsibility areas" with much less mujahadeen activity...

"Throwing babies on bayonets"..geez :cantbeli: ... are you sure you are not mistaken soviets in Afganistan for Japanese in the Pacific?

[Kingpin]

Whoah, another Afghan. Cool. Khosh amadiy, and, shah/pakhair raghley... ;)



I'm not sure he is real Afgani. Or he lived in the west many many years. Thus i don't sure he can answer you. Soviet troops did some atrocities (i read some of soldier's rememberances) but not in such scale he's writing about.
Note he practically nowhere writes about personal experience. Only links to sifferent bull****.
So almost everything he wrote --> trash.

[Sergei]

I know that "bad russians" sells, but this.... :cantbeli:

My dear afgan friend, I think that your "experienses" are pure BS or may be you are just looking for some attention on this forum.

#1 I have also heard stories from russian Afgan war vets about mines that looked like toys except there is one "minor" difference in details - like who distributed them....

#2 So let me see: One part of the Soviet forces in Afganistan is building schools, theatres, hospitals, delivering babies, treating kids injured by mines and shootings, send them to russian resorts for reabilitation, while another rampages through the country looking for unborn babies to kil and cut in piecesl... yeah, sure.

#3 "Russians mass raping Afgani women" DUDE, HAVE YOU SEEN AFGANI WOMEN? maybe there is a reason they wear burka..... (no offense to afgani women but they are not exactly a Playboy material, I have seen the one that they sent to the last "Miss Universe" and she is not exactly on my "to do" list) Did the rapes happen - probably, but you make it sound like entire soviet divisions were roaming around looking for some one to rape.

#4 Why, tell me why are so many in Afganistan are remembering the days of the soviet invasion as the prosperous years: the yeras when they got education in soviet universities, yeras when they had electricity and running water, years when their kids went to school, years when the modern buildings, schools and parks were erected, why?

Granted russians did destroy villages with airstrikes, created minefields, and yes they did shoot mujahadeen colaborators and you know what - units that practiced that usually had the quitest "responsibility areas" with much less mujahadeen activity...

"Throwing babies on bayonets"..geez :cantbeli: ... are you sure you are not mistaken soviets in Afganistan for Japanese in the Pacific?

My point exactly. Looks like our Afghani friend is pursuing some kind of an agenda. :D Those stories of babies on bayonets certainly sell good in the western world, as well as anything bad about soviet/russian soldiers.
Some entrenched cold warrior here, perhaps? :roll:

[Rebel 7]

Hello,

I knew my thread would get a bunch of pro-Red Army kids pissed. Anyways, for the kid questioning whether I am Afghan. Too fekir kadi ke ma Afghan nestum wa kadi azee kapit akhmaq-eeta neshan dadi. (Translations: You think that I am not Afghan but with this claim you have shown your stupidity.) First of all, I left Afghanistan as a young child but that does NOT mean I wasn't witness to the crimes committed by the Soviets. My relatives were in the resistance (I will post a picture of my uncle soon) and they personally were witness to the crimes committed by Soviets. Most of these pro-Red Army kids looking to discredit my accounts are who like lawyers try to find a flaw in a claim and attack that with everything they got. In Pakistan, my father worked for Inter-Aid (an NGO) and was responsible for the distribution of supplies and materials to refugees. He sat down with many of them and was told of their personal stories of what they witnessed. Even Soviet soldiers admit that they had total disregard for human life (whether woman or child) in Afghanistan. If these Red Army nimrods still don't believe me, how about I post an account of an ex-Soviet soldier. I cannot claim that I witness an atrocity because many who did did not live to tell about it. This is a fact. Those who were lucky to escape to Pakistan were ones that my father met and was told of their stories and the crimes committed by Soviet soldiers. The village of laghman was one such village where people were lined up against a wall and told, "If you believe in God, where is your God now to save you?!!" as they opened fire on the innocent villagers. I don't see a difference between these pro-Red Army nimrods and those pro-Taliban clowns. I often argued with pro-Taliban people on other forums and they too would resort to the tactics these pro-Red Army guys use. You know things like, oh you weren't there to witness it, thus your claims are false. Oh, this is just pro-American propanganda even though I don't live in the States and other such cheap accusations. I posted valid sites which pointed out atrocities committed by the Taliban and yet the pro-Taliban people wouldn't believe me, and so too do these pro-Red Army guys who are too ashamed or too stupid to admit what happened. Do you blame them? I mean the Soviets were feeding their people this image of an Afghanistan happy with the Russian "assistance" while their soldiers were busy massacring children and women in laghman and panjshir, kunduz, etc. Now, whose claims are more valid, a Russian (who obviosly would be offended by anti-Red Army remarks) and who spent years being fed Soviet propaganda about how great the Afghans admired the Russian's "assistance" or an Afghan whose father worked for NGOs and whose relatives fought and died in the war and had first hand accounts of what happened in the war?? The problem today is that just as how the Taliban hate to have their image of "religous holy warriors" tarnished by pictures of them massacring innocent hazaras and tajiks in Afghanistan, so too do the pro-Red Army people hate having the image of a might Red Army tarnished by the true image of an army drunk on blood, alcohol and opium. The sad fact is that it isn't facts or evidence that we lack but comprehension.

Later,

Rebel 7

[Rebel 7]

Whoah, another Afghan. Cool. Khosh amadiy, and, shah/pakhair raghley... ;)



I'm not sure he is real Afgani. Or he lived in the west many many years. Thus i don't sure he can answer you. Soviet troops did some atrocities (i read some of soldier's rememberances) but not in such scale he's writing about.
Note he practically nowhere writes about personal experience. Only links to sifferent bull****.
So almost everything he wrote --> trash.

Look at this guys lame attempt to argue. First he claims that my accounts must be false since I "WASN'T WITNESS" to one. Dude, how many people witnessed an atrocity and lived to tell about it? Very few! And many who did, my father spoke to while they were in the refugee camps in Pakistan. The Russians often made sure that no one escaped alive to tell of the crimes committed by them and digged up mass graves to hide the evidence, kinda like what the Nazis tried to do with the concentration camps when they were losing the war.

The only thing worthy of being labelled trash, dude, is your accusations.

[Argyll]

What age are you and when did you leave your homeland?

Nobody is denying that atrocities took place,but the very intent of you post was to stir up a hornets nest,and I think you succeded,now you said your father was part of the Afghan Army,that supported the regime,so he was also present and part of the atrocites ? Or did he stand aside and watch it happen,then got sick of it all and left to join the Mujihadeen?

I cannot wait to get 16OBr Spn's take on this.........he sure is nor red Army kid............this is going to get very interesting!

[Rebel 7]

I know that "bad russians" sells, but this.... :cantbeli:

My dear afgan friend, I think that your "experienses" are pure BS or may be you are just looking for some attention on this forum.

#1 I have also heard stories from russian Afgan war vets about mines that looked like toys except there is one "minor" difference in details - like who distributed them....

#2 So let me see: One part of the Soviet forces in Afganistan is building schools, theatres, hospitals, delivering babies, treating kids injured by mines and shootings, send them to russian resorts for reabilitation, while another rampages through the country looking for unborn babies to kil and cut in piecesl... yeah, sure.

#3 "Russians mass raping Afgani women" DUDE, HAVE YOU SEEN AFGANI WOMEN? maybe there is a reason they wear burka..... (no offense to afgani women but they are not exactly a Playboy material, I have seen the one that they sent to the last "Miss Universe" and she is not exactly on my "to do" list) Did the rapes happen - probably, but you make it sound like entire soviet divisions were roaming around looking for some one to rape.

#4 Why, tell me why are so many in Afganistan are remembering the days of the soviet invasion as the prosperous years: the yeras when they got education in soviet universities, yeras when they had electricity and running water, years when their kids went to school, years when the modern buildings, schools and parks were erected, why?

Granted russians did destroy villages with airstrikes, created minefields, and yes they did shoot mujahadeen colaborators and you know what - units that practiced that usually had the quitest "responsibility areas" with much less mujahadeen activity...

"Throwing babies on bayonets"..geez :cantbeli: ... are you sure you are not mistaken soviets in Afganistan for Japanese in the Pacific?

My point exactly. Looks like our Afghani friend is pursuing some kind of an agenda. :D Those stories of babies on bayonets certainly sell good in the western world, as well as anything bad about soviet/russian soldiers.
Some entrenched cold warrior here, perhaps? :roll:

Yeah you know. I am hired by the CIA to try and tarnish the has-been image of a mighty Soviet Army. Ever tried getting therapy for your paranoi? Dude, I don't blame you for not believing me. I mean after all, wasn't it the Soviet Union who actually made your soldiers think that they were attacking Afghanistan because there were American and Indian troops there? Wasn't it the Soviet Union who fed you guys with lies about how Afghans were grateful for your "assistance"? I guess you by default are raised to believe that anything that exposes the crimes of your Army and Nation must be a hoax even though the mass graves are there, the stories of victims are there, the dead are there, and the reports and accounts of Soviet soldiers are there. Can somebody say...MORON!

[Rebel 7]

What age are you and when did you leave your homeland?

Nobody is denying that atrocities took place,but the very intent of you post was to stir up a hornets nest,and I think you succeded,now you said your father was part of the Afghan Army,that supported the regime,so he was also present and part of the atrocites ? Or did he stand aside and watch it happen,then got sick of it all and left to join the Mujihadeen?

I cannot wait to get 16OBr Spn's take on this.........he sure is nor red Army kid............this is going to get very interesting!

I was about 1 when we left Afghanistan. We left Afghanistan because my father was threatened with death if he did not convert to communism. We lived in Pakistan till I was 7. Now let me ask you this? Do you have any relatives who fought in the war? Do you have relatives who sat down with victims and discussed the events that took place and why they became refugees? My post was meant to point out why I have total disrespect for the Red Army and anyone who claims to be proud of that criminal militia masquerading as a nation's army. If the evidence and accounts and claims get you pissed because you are oh so nationalist and proud of your has-been army, then so be it. Nationalism and false pride has bred ignorance in you man and that is why you claim what you claim. I will sit down with my uncle and document in detail what he witnessed and I will post it for your viewing pleasure. Oh, and my father wasn't in the Army when Taraki was running the country. It was my uncle and a few other relatives (some died) and a few escaped alive.

[Rebel 7]

I know that "bad russians" sells, but this.... :cantbeli:

My dear afgan friend, I think that your "experienses" are pure BS or may be you are just looking for some attention on this forum.

#1 I have also heard stories from russian Afgan war vets about mines that looked like toys except there is one "minor" difference in details - like who distributed them....

#2 So let me see: One part of the Soviet forces in Afganistan is building schools, theatres, hospitals, delivering babies, treating kids injured by mines and shootings, send them to russian resorts for reabilitation, while another rampages through the country looking for unborn babies to kil and cut in piecesl... yeah, sure.

#3 "Russians mass raping Afgani women" DUDE, HAVE YOU SEEN AFGANI WOMEN? maybe there is a reason they wear burka..... (no offense to afgani women but they are not exactly a Playboy material, I have seen the one that they sent to the last "Miss Universe" and she is not exactly on my "to do" list) Did the rapes happen - probably, but you make it sound like entire soviet divisions were roaming around looking for some one to rape.

#4 Why, tell me why are so many in Afganistan are remembering the days of the soviet invasion as the prosperous years: the yeras when they got education in soviet universities, yeras when they had electricity and running water, years when their kids went to school, years when the modern buildings, schools and parks were erected, why?

Granted russians did destroy villages with airstrikes, created minefields, and yes they did shoot mujahadeen colaborators and you know what - units that practiced that usually had the quitest "responsibility areas" with much less mujahadeen activity...

"Throwing babies on bayonets"..geez :cantbeli: ... are you sure you are not mistaken soviets in Afganistan for Japanese in the Pacific?


#2 So let me see: One part of the Soviet forces in Afganistan is building schools, theatres, hospitals, delivering babies, treating kids injured by mines and shootings, send them to russian resorts for reabilitation,


I guess Soviet propaganda worked well didn't it?! Must give credit to them for that. The only ones who were able to get that kind of Soviet "assistance" were government officials and their families who were communists while the rest of the nation was being brutalized.


#3 "Russians mass raping Afgani women" DUDE, HAVE YOU SEEN AFGANI WOMEN? maybe there is a reason they wear burka..... (no offense to afgani women but they are not exactly a Playboy material, I have seen the one that they sent to the last "Miss Universe" and she is not exactly on my "to do" list) Did the rapes happen - probably, but you make it sound like entire soviet divisions were roaming around looking for some one to rape.


Dude, stop talking stupid and actually go ask Afghans what was going on. Have you ever thought of doing? The Soviet soldiers did rape on a sufficient scale to be considered large. It wasn't 10 or 20 women we are talking about here.


Granted russians did destroy villages with airstrikes, created minefields, and yes they did shoot mujahadeen colaborators and you know what - units that practiced that usually had the quitest "responsibility areas" with much less mujahadeen activity...

"Shoot mujahideen collaborators?" Dude, I guess those babies and women were Mujahideen agents disguised as babies and women uh? Just plain stupid is what your post is.

[Rebel 7]

I know that "bad russians" sells, but this.... :cantbeli:

My dear afgan friend, I think that your "experienses" are pure BS or may be you are just looking for some attention on this forum.

#1 I have also heard stories from russian Afgan war vets about mines that looked like toys except there is one "minor" difference in details - like who distributed them....

#2 So let me see: One part of the Soviet forces in Afganistan is building schools, theatres, hospitals, delivering babies, treating kids injured by mines and shootings, send them to russian resorts for reabilitation, while another rampages through the country looking for unborn babies to kil and cut in piecesl... yeah, sure.

#3 "Russians mass raping Afgani women" DUDE, HAVE YOU SEEN AFGANI WOMEN? maybe there is a reason they wear burka..... (no offense to afgani women but they are not exactly a Playboy material, I have seen the one that they sent to the last "Miss Universe" and she is not exactly on my "to do" list) Did the rapes happen - probably, but you make it sound like entire soviet divisions were roaming around looking for some one to rape.

#4 Why, tell me why are so many in Afganistan are remembering the days of the soviet invasion as the prosperous years: the yeras when they got education in soviet universities, yeras when they had electricity and running water, years when their kids went to school, years when the modern buildings, schools and parks were erected, why?

Granted russians did destroy villages with airstrikes, created minefields, and yes they did shoot mujahadeen colaborators and you know what - units that practiced that usually had the quitest "responsibility areas" with much less mujahadeen activity...

"Throwing babies on bayonets"..geez :cantbeli: ... are you sure you are not mistaken soviets in Afganistan for Japanese in the Pacific?


#2 So let me see: One part of the Soviet forces in Afganistan is building schools, theatres, hospitals, delivering babies, treating kids injured by mines and shootings, send them to russian resorts for reabilitation,


I guess Soviet propaganda worked well didn't it?! Must give credit to them for that. The only ones who were able to get that kind of Soviet "assistance" were government officials and their families who were communists while the rest of the nation was being brutalized.


#3 "Russians mass raping Afgani women" DUDE, HAVE YOU SEEN AFGANI WOMEN? maybe there is a reason they wear burka..... (no offense to afgani women but they are not exactly a Playboy material, I have seen the one that they sent to the last "Miss Universe" and she is not exactly on my "to do" list) Did the rapes happen - probably, but you make it sound like entire soviet divisions were roaming around looking for some one to rape.


Dude, stop talking stupid and actually go ask Afghans what was going on. Have you ever thought of doing? The Soviet soldiers did rape on a sufficient scale to be considered large. It wasn't 10 or 20 women we are talking about here.


Granted russians did destroy villages with airstrikes, created minefields, and yes they did shoot mujahadeen colaborators and you know what - units that practiced that usually had the quitest "responsibility areas" with much less mujahadeen activity...

"Shoot mujahideen collaborators?" Dude, I guess those babies and women were Mujahideen agents disguised as babies and women uh? Just plain stupid is what your post is.

[Rebel 7]

Since these pro-Red Army kids won't believe what an Afghans says, lets see if they'll believe what one of their own soldiers has to say.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/20/interviews/soldier/soldier-1.jpg

More than half a million Soviet soldiers took part in the war in Afghanistan; 15,000 of them were killed, and many others were wounded, both physically and emotionally. The soldier interviewed here was a young officer from Moscow who was sent to Afghanistan in 1987, when he was a 21-year-old military school student. He served near the city of Kandahar in both artillery and paratroop units. These excerpts have been translated from Russian.

On being sent to Afghanistan:

When I was at the military school, we knew that something was happening in Afghanistan, but we were told that there was no war -- that the soldiers were just taking food to the civilians and giving concerts, like in Czechoslovakia, in accordance with the Warsaw Pact. But in 1986 there appeared more things in the press: the Panjshir [valley] operation, uprisings in the prisoner-of-war camps in Pakistan, and the soldiers who returned, the boys without limbs who lived in our barracks, who had completed their duty, were telling us the facts. ...

[We were told] we pre-empted the Americans in sending troops to Afghanistan, and if we hadn't sent our troops, they would have sent theirs -- such was the [official] version. The Americans would have set up military bases with missiles on the southern border of the Soviet Union, and so on. ... Of course, it was said that [the Soviet invasion] was in accordance with the treaty with Afghanistan and at the request of the Afghan people. ...

When we were leaving for Afghanistan, we were semi-drunk. It was three o'clock in the morning when they announced the departure. Before that I had spent three days in Tashkent [Uzbekistan]. And we were waiting for the departure and kept drinking for three days, and then at three a.m. we got on trucks and then caught our plane. I was out of it. I remember a customs man asked me, "Lieutenant, why are you so sad?" But it didn't hit me immediately. [I replied]: "Ah, what? Headache." [And he said]: "Okay, go through."

In the plane I fell asleep, as we were flying at night. And then it was dawn, and through the window I saw mountains, mountains, mountains. I got off the plane as if I was on a different planet, and then ... I plunged into reality. It took me a short time to acclimatize, and on the third day I was sent to take part in a military operation with other soldiers.

On conditions in Afghanistan:

The Kandahar Desert is one of the hottest places: the temperature rises to 60 degrees [centigrade]. For a European, such hot conditions are difficult. Turkmenia is the hottest republic of the former Soviet Union, and [even] the Turkmens often fainted during their first week there. And I was a Muscovite. There was malaria, hepatitis. I don't have the figures, but I'm sure that 80, if not 90 percent of the army [got sick]. It was like catching a cold.

Of course, conditions differed. In Kabul, there were girls and ice cream and air-conditioned rooms. Well, I don't know, I didn't try that -- I didn't get ice cream and I didn't meet any girls. As for us, there was no electricity. I did have water, most of the time. Food deliveries were irregular. The food that was sent was canned potatoes, canned beetroot, and we kept losing teeth at higher rates than the people who live in the Arctic, for lack of vitamins. Everything was canned. ...

Sometimes, during an operation ... you'd get a food ration for 10 days, and on the ninth day they'd tell you that you had to divide up what was left between all of you and make it last three days. So we went hungry, and that was one reason for looting. And the food was not the best, either. And then it's a characteristic of Russians to pick up and put into your pocket something as small as a nail, sabers, jugs. You didn't need them, but [you took them anyway]. ... In the early 1980s, [because of the Afghans'] so-called "great love" for us, we never paid money in the tea houses and inns. There were cases of selling and buying -- selling ammunition and buying something in return. But in the beginning, soldiers would go to a store with a machine-gun and get all they needed from them at gunpoint.

On the state of the Soviet army in Afghanistan:

Drugs, bullying, drunkenness, bribery were all present. It was very acute then in the Soviet army in general. The situation in the Soviet army in general was far from ideal, but things that happened in the army at large happened in a more acute way in Afghanistan. ...

Vodka was the officers' disease. The soldiers didn't drink vodka: they drank some moonshine, or home-made brew. Drugs were less common among officers. But when it was possible, of course... They wouldn't do it during military operations, but it was nice to get high, then to go out, shoot a bit, catch a soldier and make him sing songs. Yes, such things happened indeed. Once a new officer arrived, he was astonished by how heavily people drank. Vodka was very expensive: one bottle cost a third of a month's salary. But everyone got drunk on moonshine, which was also used as a bribe for goods -- ammunition, clothes, etc. Unless you bribed someone, you wouldn't get the sort of ammunition that you were entitled to, or the food that you were entitled to. They would say to you, "This isn't available, this isn't available" -- and then if I offered moonshine, I could get fresh meat instead of canned meat. Also, I had to use vodka as a bribe when I wanted to get some equipment repaired. We would swap vodka for spare parts. ... Unless I offered bribes, I wouldn't get what I wanted.

On the Soviets' relationship with the Afghan population:

During the day, the locals smile at you, and then they can fire a bullet into your back, and a boy can stick a mine under your car. During the day, he's a peaceful peasant, and at night he lays mines on the road. ...

The notion of "peaceful population" is relative; they were all guerrilla fighters. A man wouldn't have a military card, but in his cellar he would keep a Kalashnikov. We would come to comb a village and would hear Kalashnikov fire; from the commander's point of view, why should he [risk losing] his men? What are all those "war rules" after all, when you are there? They all turn into nothing. In the army, the first thing to do is to open fire with artillery, and only after that are soldiers sent ahead. Any offensive which is done in a different order is a crime in the face of the soldiers. So, instead of aiming at particular points, it was normal to raze a whole location to the ground. ...

After plowing through [a] village, we found two wounded Soviet soldiers on whose faces women had been urinating, and children the age of my own children were toying with them with knives. After any war there should be a Nuremberg trial, and both parties should be put on trial. [The local Afghans] would hang a soldier or cut their skin into shreds. Their motive was: we were the aggressors, and they were protecting themselves. ...

I'm not saying that [such atrocities] happened all the time, but [they] existed toward the civilians. In the context of war on somebody's territory, the term "peaceful civilians" is [inane], because every peaceful civilian will have a machine-gun in his home.

On war:

What is war? Why did so many of the Afghan civilian population get killed? What is real war? Women killed... Again, this is a problem that has no moral solution. ...

[A soldier] doesn't think at the time about the "motherland" or "internationalist duty"; he just presses the trigger. Emotions, reasons -- all that comes later. In war, you hardly ever assess things. It's work. It's a chain of running around in circles, being part of the herd. But later some become aware. You come to the stage [where you think] "everything is allowed," and you feel that it's so simple to kill. You feel yourself superior to others in this understanding; you cross a certain line. In Dostoyevsky, for example, in literature and art, crossing the line always leaves a trace, and you can't go back and forth across it because you kill something in yourself [as well]. And for most the loss is permanent. Everything is allowed because you've got a machine-gun hanging on your neck. You are like God: your will or your caprice can do away with someone. ...

On the one hand, the principle is that if you don't kill others, somebody kills you. You fire, they fire too. But there are other sides to it. The lowest part of a person's nature comes to the surface: the complex of man with a gun -- because you have real power, and sometimes when you see there are no security officers or KGB officers watching you, you feel you can do anything. If I don't like someone, or a young soldier wants to test his new weapon, or he wants to see what intestines look like or the inside of a smashed head looks like... If you don't kill, you are killed.

Secondly, you get drunk on blood. And also, out of boredom you feel -- it's like hunting rabbits. ... One morning, we arrived at a village with a reconnaissance platoon. A boy of nine met us, and the commander of the platoon should have shot him, but he didn't. I remember I said to him very angrily, "You should become a member of the Communist Party for such kindness." But as a result of his kindness, so to speak, two of our soldiers were killed 30 minutes later. Should he have fired? This is a [question] that has no moral solution: should he have fired or shouldn't he? If he had fired, he would have been a "good boy": he would have saved the lives of his two soldiers. But he didn't fire at that Afghan boy, and two mothers in the Soviet Union received coffins [because of it]. ...

Atrocity breeds atrocity. ... Anything could be done in retaliation. When you found wounded soldiers who had been tortured by women and children, how could you retaliate? [One time] we found some wounded [Soviet] soldiers, they were still alive. ... One [was] cut up with knives and urinated over, literally. It wasn't the [Afghan resistance] who had done it to them, but the "peaceful population" -- they all thought it was their duty to throw a stone or to spit at us. ...

We splashed them with diesel and set them on fire.

On Afghan war veterans:

Some carry on fighting, some went to Chechnya and they continue; others are in prison; others left. But usually people can't live normal family lives: they get divorced -- many more than once -- and the situation is unhealthy in the family; there are conflicts at work. You have to reach an understanding that neither doctor nor psychoanalyst nor medicine will do anything. It's not mental illness, it's a condition of your psyche. ...

Speaking about myself, I've managed. I've succeeded because I had stories and songs and a circle of people for a while. But then one has to break away, distance oneself. ... Occasionally the [effects of the war] come out. In my case, it's aggression, especially when I drink. ...

[Veterans] felt the consequences already when they came back. Everything was understandable in Afghanistan. Everyone was the same there, but here, society lives according to different rules, and you don't fit in. In the war, your Colt pistol is the boss, but here everything is more civilized: your soul, your conflicts, nerves -- that's everybody's problem. Some try to understand what they went through, but others don't fill their head with unnecessary rubbish; they just look back at those things as something that had to happen. Some went crazy. You can't say that everyone repented or that everyone did not. ... I know that people who came back did not fit in. Nobody fits into the peaceful life.

[Salty Dog]

i never knew about these things happening. then again, i don't know much about the russian afghan war. some of those atrocities are tough to swallow, but i bleieve they happened. argyll was right, some similar things did happen in vietnam, but that was a whole other army. now a days the U.S. army is extremely humane.

[Rebel 7]

Since these pro-Red Army kids won't believe what an Afghans says, lets see if they'll believe what one of their own soldiers has to say.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/20/interviews/soldier/soldier-1.jpg

More than half a million Soviet soldiers took part in the war in Afghanistan; 15,000 of them were killed, and many others were wounded, both physically and emotionally. The soldier interviewed here was a young officer from Moscow who was sent to Afghanistan in 1987, when he was a 21-year-old military school student. He served near the city of Kandahar in both artillery and paratroop units. These excerpts have been translated from Russian.

On being sent to Afghanistan:

When I was at the military school, we knew that something was happening in Afghanistan, but we were told that there was no war -- that the soldiers were just taking food to the civilians and giving concerts, like in Czechoslovakia, in accordance with the Warsaw Pact. But in 1986 there appeared more things in the press: the Panjshir [valley] operation, uprisings in the prisoner-of-war camps in Pakistan, and the soldiers who returned, the boys without limbs who lived in our barracks, who had completed their duty, were telling us the facts. ...

[We were told] we pre-empted the Americans in sending troops to Afghanistan, and if we hadn't sent our troops, they would have sent theirs -- such was the [official] version. The Americans would have set up military bases with missiles on the southern border of the Soviet Union, and so on. ... Of course, it was said that [the Soviet invasion] was in accordance with the treaty with Afghanistan and at the request of the Afghan people. ...

When we were leaving for Afghanistan, we were semi-drunk. It was three o'clock in the morning when they announced the departure. Before that I had spent three days in Tashkent [Uzbekistan]. And we were waiting for the departure and kept drinking for three days, and then at three a.m. we got on trucks and then caught our plane. I was out of it. I remember a customs man asked me, "Lieutenant, why are you so sad?" But it didn't hit me immediately. [I replied]: "Ah, what? Headache." [And he said]: "Okay, go through."

In the plane I fell asleep, as we were flying at night. And then it was dawn, and through the window I saw mountains, mountains, mountains. I got off the plane as if I was on a different planet, and then ... I plunged into reality. It took me a short time to acclimatize, and on the third day I was sent to take part in a military operation with other soldiers.

On conditions in Afghanistan:

The Kandahar Desert is one of the hottest places: the temperature rises to 60 degrees [centigrade]. For a European, such hot conditions are difficult. Turkmenia is the hottest republic of the former Soviet Union, and [even] the Turkmens often fainted during their first week there. And I was a Muscovite. There was malaria, hepatitis. I don't have the figures, but I'm sure that 80, if not 90 percent of the army [got sick]. It was like catching a cold.

Of course, conditions differed. In Kabul, there were girls and ice cream and air-conditioned rooms. Well, I don't know, I didn't try that -- I didn't get ice cream and I didn't meet any girls. As for us, there was no electricity. I did have water, most of the time. Food deliveries were irregular. The food that was sent was canned potatoes, canned beetroot, and we kept losing teeth at higher rates than the people who live in the Arctic, for lack of vitamins. Everything was canned. ...

Sometimes, during an operation ... you'd get a food ration for 10 days, and on the ninth day they'd tell you that you had to divide up what was left between all of you and make it last three days. So we went hungry, and that was one reason for looting. And the food was not the best, either. And then it's a characteristic of Russians to pick up and put into your pocket something as small as a nail, sabers, jugs. You didn't need them, but [you took them anyway]. ... In the early 1980s, [because of the Afghans'] so-called "great love" for us, we never paid money in the tea houses and inns. There were cases of selling and buying -- selling ammunition and buying something in return. But in the beginning, soldiers would go to a store with a machine-gun and get all they needed from them at gunpoint.

On the state of the Soviet army in Afghanistan:

Drugs, bullying, drunkenness, bribery were all present. It was very acute then in the Soviet army in general. The situation in the Soviet army in general was far from ideal, but things that happened in the army at large happened in a more acute way in Afghanistan. ...

Vodka was the officers' disease. The soldiers didn't drink vodka: they drank some moonshine, or home-made brew. Drugs were less common among officers. But when it was possible, of course... They wouldn't do it during military operations, but it was nice to get high, then to go out, shoot a bit, catch a soldier and make him sing songs. Yes, such things happened indeed. Once a new officer arrived, he was astonished by how heavily people drank. Vodka was very expensive: one bottle cost a third of a month's salary. But everyone got drunk on moonshine, which was also used as a bribe for goods -- ammunition, clothes, etc. Unless you bribed someone, you wouldn't get the sort of ammunition that you were entitled to, or the food that you were entitled to. They would say to you, "This isn't available, this isn't available" -- and then if I offered moonshine, I could get fresh meat instead of canned meat. Also, I had to use vodka as a bribe when I wanted to get some equipment repaired. We would swap vodka for spare parts. ... Unless I offered bribes, I wouldn't get what I wanted.

On the Soviets' relationship with the Afghan population:

During the day, the locals smile at you, and then they can fire a bullet into your back, and a boy can stick a mine under your car. During the day, he's a peaceful peasant, and at night he lays mines on the road. ...

The notion of "peaceful population" is relative; they were all guerrilla fighters. A man wouldn't have a military card, but in his cellar he would keep a Kalashnikov. We would come to comb a village and would hear Kalashnikov fire; from the commander's point of view, why should he [risk losing] his men? What are all those "war rules" after all, when you are there? They all turn into nothing. In the army, the first thing to do is to open fire with artillery, and only after that are soldiers sent ahead. Any offensive which is done in a different order is a crime in the face of the soldiers. So, instead of aiming at particular points, it was normal to raze a whole location to the ground. ...

After plowing through [a] village, we found two wounded Soviet soldiers on whose faces women had been urinating, and children the age of my own children were toying with them with knives. After any war there should be a Nuremberg trial, and both parties should be put on trial. [The local Afghans] would hang a soldier or cut their skin into shreds. Their motive was: we were the aggressors, and they were protecting themselves. ...

I'm not saying that [such atrocities] happened all the time, but [they] existed toward the civilians. In the context of war on somebody's territory, the term "peaceful civilians" is [inane], because every peaceful civilian will have a machine-gun in his home.

On war:

What is war? Why did so many of the Afghan civilian population get killed? What is real war? Women killed... Again, this is a problem that has no moral solution. ...

[A soldier] doesn't think at the time about the "motherland" or "internationalist duty"; he just presses the trigger. Emotions, reasons -- all that comes later. In war, you hardly ever assess things. It's work. It's a chain of running around in circles, being part of the herd. But later some become aware. You come to the stage [where you think] "everything is allowed," and you feel that it's so simple to kill. You feel yourself superior to others in this understanding; you cross a certain line. In Dostoyevsky, for example, in literature and art, crossing the line always leaves a trace, and you can't go back and forth across it because you kill something in yourself [as well]. And for most the loss is permanent. Everything is allowed because you've got a machine-gun hanging on your neck. You are like God: your will or your caprice can do away with someone. ...

On the one hand, the principle is that if you don't kill others, somebody kills you. You fire, they fire too. But there are other sides to it. The lowest part of a person's nature comes to the surface: the complex of man with a gun -- because you have real power, and sometimes when you see there are no security officers or KGB officers watching you, you feel you can do anything. If I don't like someone, or a young soldier wants to test his new weapon, or he wants to see what intestines look like or the inside of a smashed head looks like... If you don't kill, you are killed.

Secondly, you get drunk on blood. And also, out of boredom you feel -- it's like hunting rabbits. ... One morning, we arrived at a village with a reconnaissance platoon. A boy of nine met us, and the commander of the platoon should have shot him, but he didn't. I remember I said to him very angrily, "You should become a member of the Communist Party for such kindness." But as a result of his kindness, so to speak, two of our soldiers were killed 30 minutes later. Should he have fired? This is a [question] that has no moral solution: should he have fired or shouldn't he? If he had fired, he would have been a "good boy": he would have saved the lives of his two soldiers. But he didn't fire at that Afghan boy, and two mothers in the Soviet Union received coffins [because of it]. ...

Atrocity breeds atrocity. ... Anything could be done in retaliation. When you found wounded soldiers who had been tortured by women and children, how could you retaliate? [One time] we found some wounded [Soviet] soldiers, they were still alive. ... One [was] cut up with knives and urinated over, literally. It wasn't the [Afghan resistance] who had done it to them, but the "peaceful population" -- they all thought it was their duty to throw a stone or to spit at us. ...

We splashed them with diesel and set them on fire.

On Afghan war veterans:

Some carry on fighting, some went to Chechnya and they continue; others are in prison; others left. But usually people can't live normal family lives: they get divorced -- many more than once -- and the situation is unhealthy in the family; there are conflicts at work. You have to reach an understanding that neither doctor nor psychoanalyst nor medicine will do anything. It's not mental illness, it's a condition of your psyche. ...

Speaking about myself, I've managed. I've succeeded because I had stories and songs and a circle of people for a while. But then one has to break away, distance oneself. ... Occasionally the [effects of the war] come out. In my case, it's aggression, especially when I drink. ...

[Veterans] felt the consequences already when they came back. Everything was understandable in Afghanistan. Everyone was the same there, but here, society lives according to different rules, and you don't fit in. In the war, your Colt pistol is the boss, but here everything is more civilized: your soul, your conflicts, nerves -- that's everybody's problem. Some try to understand what they went through, but others don't fill their head with unnecessary rubbish; they just look back at those things as something that had to happen. Some went crazy. You can't say that everyone repented or that everyone did not. ... I know that people who came back did not fit in. Nobody fits into the peaceful life.

Although this article does not describe in great depth the atrocities committed by the Soviets, it does decribe the wide corruption that ran rampant in the army. I guess the Red Army wasn't as disciplined as we thought uh?!!!

[Dmitri]

How about you tell us about the atrocities that Afghans did?? They must be some innocent little angels... :roll: I believe that there were bunch of things that soviet army should be ashamed for, but that happens in every war. I think if Afghans were on someone else's land without their women for quite a long time, there would be rapes everywhere. And questions like: "Do you believe in Allah? NO??!!.....BOOOM" I "heard" about that many times. Granted that would probably be some type similar to Taliban fighters, but hey, don't blame them for disgracing the Afghani honor, seems like they are the ones who stuck during the run and didn't run to Pakistan.

[Dmitri]

Although this article does not describe in great depth the atrocities committed by the Soviets, it does decribe the wide corruption that ran rampant in the army. I guess the Red Army wasn't as disciplined as we thought uh?!!!
OMFG!!!! Dude, that article doesn't tell me CRAP! It actually talks more about some **** Afghans did. I don't want to disgrace American military here, as I'm also part of it, but you have NO IDEA what really goes on during the war. As a matter of a fact, if you want me to tell you in PM just to set your head straight about the wars, let me know

[Argyll]

I can see this thread gettin locked soon!

Reb mate you never told your age,why not?

You are quite right ,I never had any relatives who fought in that war......I don't think Scotland was involved in that one somehow.!
Not all the Soviets were bad,and not all Mujihadeen were good.

I put it to you that because there have been very informative posts from 16OBr and His2004,that this got you worked up,but until you can provide proof of who you are,you could be anyone out to cause discord,fair play to you if you are a bona fide Afghani who suffered at the hands of the Soviets,but people here are pretty sceptical of posts such as yours,they could come from books or whatever,and not from 1st hand experience,but I can see this will turn into personal insults and will be in breach of forum rules!

[Rebel 7]

I can see this thread gettin locked soon!

Reb mate you never told your age,why not?

You are quite right ,I never had any relatives who fought in that war......I don't think Scotland was involved in that one somehow.!
Not all the Soviets were bad,and not all Mujihadeen were good.

I put it to you that because there have been very informative posts from 16OBr and His2004,that this got you worked up,but until you can provide proof of who you are,you could be anyone out to cause discord,fair play to you if you are a bona fide Afghani who suffered at the hands of the Soviets,but people here are pretty sceptical of posts such as yours,they could come from books or whatever,and not from 1st hand experience,but I can see this will turn into personal insults and will be in breach of forum rules!

I am 21 years old. Yes, not all the Soviets were bad....but the amount that were bad overshadowed the ones that were good. That is why the Soviets weren't known for their whatever little humane things they did, but for the atrocities they committed. As for the Mujahideen, you don't know me personally and you don't know how much of the Mujahideen I resent and hate (ie. Gulbudeen, Zardad, etc.) I won't let my pride of being an Afghan get in the way of criticizing Mujahideen who were criminals. The reason why many of you think that my stories are false is because you people think that humans are not capable of such things. You think people would have believed what the Nazis did had the concentration camps been not found or destroyed before the alllies could come upon them in their offensive? The West filters everything. The Taliban atrocities were only released and described in decent detail after Sept. 11 even though the footages they showed were like 4-5 years old. I saw the war victims, I have family who were victims. I know, you people expect me to describe in detail....but I wasn't a soldier, I was merely a child raised in an environment that had war drums ringing in the background. Does that make my accounts false? NO! I can get detailed accounts from my relatives but I have never faced a situation where my stories were doubted so much so that I had to resort to doing an in-depth report on my father's and relative's and friend's experiences. I will if you ask of me but it will take some time as I have a full course load this semester and do not have a lot of free time available to me. But to those who doubt my stories, I doubt they have talked to an Afghan before about this, I doubt they even know an Afghan, and I doubt they are willing to be exposed to what I know.

Later,
Rebel 7

[RomanS]

Hey Rebel,

My father fought in Afghanistan. My very good friend was shot down in Afghanistan twice and lived to tell us his storries.

My Older Brother in law, died in Jalalabad at the end of the war.

By reading your "default" traditional "Russians are from hell, and kill kill kill kill ****in kill everyone.

If I would get paid to argue with every **** like you, and get paid just a ruble. I would have anough money to buy a Patriot missle and send it as a present to your turban wearing friends.

Good thing I wouldn't have to worry about my missle being hijacked, and smashed in to some office building. I mean you goateaters are so brave, innocent and it throws me into tears when I think about Soviet Soldiers killing thousands of your children.

During those days there were 2 big kids on the block. Russia and Usa. As I remember that our armies were filled with 99.95 of civilized, educated people.

What the **** is " Soviet soldiers would rape a pregnant woman, and take her baby out?" What were the officers doing? Ignoring this crime?
Do you even know how much discipline was around the Soviet Army.
You try just selling ammo to the local hunters, you would be sent to Moscow, get smaked and sent to a prision.

Raping pregnant women and taking out her baby... What the ****.....
This is something you sick dogs would do to your females. If Allah finds out that your wife was raped, and has a baby of some Pakistani in her - that would be the end.

She would loose her head, or be stoned, and I am sure the baby would be taken out with the most pain. Don't tell me that its not truth you ****er.
Only in your preverted religion you cover female's faces, and treat them like slaves. And you have the balls to blame Soviet soldiers for killing you dirty goats.

It's like the Soviet Army came to afghanistan for having some satanic style fun. They all wear black long capes, and only did their sacrifices during the night. They drew a giant star in the circle on the ground, and began their bloody rituals.

Rebel, did you learn your good English in Afghanistan? Or you are some kid that just finished reading "Stalin" My jihad etc????

American intellegence should know the facts. I mean they were helping your people out during this time. If the Soviets really did what you ****in say, do you know how much the US would benefit from this? Do you even know the ****in logic, you sick bastard?

Everything you say is BULL****, pure muslim propaganda BULL****.
Soviets were ataked from everywhere in Afghanistan, and our soldiers fought hard.

Airborne, Marines, KGB, GRU all sent your ****in mudjaheds to your ****in ALlah.
We faced some hard ass warriors, and I doubt you were part of them. You probably sat somewhere in Ruha, and **** your pants when our jets flew by your village.

Your mudjaheds were brave I agree. They did know how to fight, they have been doing it for centuries. So despite the constant attacks on our soldiers, we just ****in had all the time in our world to go and slaughter your people.

What was the reason? Your civilians were no threat to us. I remember the storries of starving afghans, they didn't know how to read, or put a sentance together. I remember our guys trying to feed them, and to wipe them out in the ways you describe, was just in-humane.

Sorry assholes, it seems to me that your people did more preverted **** like that. ONly in your country you would use a soccer stadium to execute your people. Or was it also Soviets?

I've seen the videos of mudjaheds having beef between your sick tribes.
I don't want to go into more argument about that war, because I wasnt fighting in it. I was too young.

I do remember seeing zinc caskets of my older friends driving through our street, and their mothers chasing the Green Ural truck bashing their heads on the street concrete.

You come to think, all of the friends I know who died in Afghanistan had close casket bodies. Because your sick ****ers thought it was Allah's will to cut their body parts, to slit their throats, take their eyes out, to cut their ****s off, because a lot of soldiers were not circimzied.

If you really fought against our guys than you should know "what is a red jacket", What is a "Puppet", "Red Tullip" ?????

Tell us

You ****ers skined our soldiers in those ways. Our VDV brothers would be driving on the road, and would find their friends without hands, legs, and other parts. But still alive.

You animals would leave them alive on purpoce. Or what about cutin a line bellow a chin of our POWs, and then pulling the skin over his head. The Red Tullip I'm talking about.

How could we just simply enter your villages, and execute everyone? Do you sick **** know that a good chunk of the Soviet Army were citizens from all over the Union. Tadjik, Kazahi, Uzbeki, Turkmenistani, Tatari, Ukrainzi, Kavkazi, Belorusi, Latishi,

There were thousands of muslim soldiers in the SOviet army. So you gonna tell me they stood there looking at some Slav soldier raping a pregnant women and taking her baby out?
Give me a ****in break.

The Soviet comanding staff would not let this **** go on. What kind of reputation would we show to the world? We were there to support the government that wanted to teach you
how to eat with a fork
read
watch tv
go to school
play chess
soccer
treat your females with respect

Am I wrong? or did we just woke up one morning and thought it would be a cool idea to go invade some ****hole. I mean we had tanks, big planes, best assualt weapons, we just didn't know who to go and rape. We have a shortage with women in Soviet Union. Such a big shortage that we had to go and find more, thousand miles away.

The problem was is , where would we go to **** somebody, and then kill them. So they started throwing darts at the map, and the first dark landed on your ****hole called Afghanistan.

So we went there, and right when we enetered the country the rape Fiesta began. And after that we would burn down your villages. What is there to ****in burn ? You don't even have trees growing in Afghanistan. All your houses are made out of un proccesed rock. I mean you animals live in caves. Same caves where you hoe ben laden is hiding now.

Fine, after 10 years of fighting, and trying to educate your people - we left.
What happened in Afghanistan next? Flowers started growing, libraries opened up, theaters, museums, universities, parks. Hell yeah, probably even musical halls, since the invading demons have left.

NO, you ****ers contiunued on your preferabale way of living. Majority of your people were ****ed by your own taliban. And then your assholes found a way to go **** with us.

How many of your mudjaheds found their ways into Tadjikistan? Oh wait, say CHECHNYA?

This wasn't your business, and war. Why did you ****ers come to Chechnya? And I must say in big numbers. I've seen the protocols from MVD units, describing the scene of an aftermath.

Found citizen X, beard, olive skin, Not-Chechen native. Later, on we find that he came from afghanistan. That **** kept on going.

And later your ****ers attacked USA. Now since you really know you are ****ed, its good to see that you chose the right side. Otherwise your would be another stinky muslim fanatic.
Oh who knows, maybe you are....
you all ****ers have 2 faces.

[Rebel 7]

I can see this thread gettin locked soon!

Reb mate you never told your age,why not?

You are quite right ,I never had any relatives who fought in that war......I don't think Scotland was involved in that one somehow.!
Not all the Soviets were bad,and not all Mujihadeen were good.

I put it to you that because there have been very informative posts from 16OBr and His2004,that this got you worked up,but until you can provide proof of who you are,you could be anyone out to cause discord,fair play to you if you are a bona fide Afghani who suffered at the hands of the Soviets,but people here are pretty sceptical of posts such as yours,they could come from books or whatever,and not from 1st hand experience,but I can see this will turn into personal insults and will be in breach of forum rules!

I recently went to Afghanistan. I ask you to do the same if you really want to find out whether what I state is true of false. Don't believe me, but go see for yourself as all the evidence is there in Afghanistan to fill any doubts you have. To say that the Soviets committed SOME atrocities would get the Afghan population either mad or laughing in anger at how stupid of a comment that is. Nobody and I mean NOBODY knows better than Afghans the kind of brutality they went through at the hands of the Soviets and their accounts are more valid than some sugar-coated account that an ex-Soviet soldier can give you especailly since their reputation and their army's reputation is on the line. You think anyone wants to admit they were invovled in a criminal militia that had no regard for human life (including women and children)?! Come on....no one is that stupid!

[RomanS]

Carefull when you go,

don't mention you are American, and try to stay closer to the AMerican troops.

Humans need their heads.

[Dmitri]

Na Biss!!!!

[Dmitri]

C'mon Rebel, how about you answer some of mine or Permskii's posts. You seem to like to educate some impressionable little kids here, I would like to hear your comment on the posts of people who actually have an opinion and know something.
Like I said, that story of yours about the Russian officer is just pathetic, worst one you could put out.

After plowing through [a] village, we found two wounded Soviet soldiers on whose faces women had been urinating, and children the age of my own children were toying with them with knives. After any war there should be a Nuremberg trial, and both parties should be put on trial. [The local Afghans] would hang a soldier or cut their skin into shreds. Their motive was: we were the aggressors, and they were protecting themselves. ...
Do you believe him yourself???
BTW, isn't cannabis legal in Afghanistan? You seem like you smoked a little too much, with some hash on top

[Argyll]

Am I the only one who see's something odd here?

Buddy you were not even born when the Soviets left Afghanistan,the fact that you left when you were 1,would make that 1993,4 years after the Soviet withdrawl.
Kabul fell to the Mujihadeen in 1992,but your family fled when you were 1,which would be 1994 or therabouts in which time it was the Mujihadeen who were in control of of most of Afghanistan,it was in the summer of 95 that the Taliban came to power,who did your family flee from,it wasn't the Soviets as they had long gone before your Birth,and if it was the taliban,it was at the very start of their reign?........I'm curious that's all
You fled to Pakistan.....who were supporters of the Taliban for the best part of the 90's....out of the frying pan into the fire...yet you said you fled because your father would not convert to communism......I wasn't aware that the Mujihadeen or for that matter the Taliban practiced communism!


I truly want to believe you but your story is full of holes

[Herrmannek]

What the f*** is " Soviet soldiers would rape a pregnant woman, and take her baby out?" What were the officers doing? Ignoring this crime?
Do you even know how much discipline was around the Soviet Army.
You try just selling ammo to the local hunters, you would be sent to Moscow, get smaked and sent to a prision.


Don't want to nitpick, but when your soldiers where living Poland, they where selling everything the've got: ammo, wepons, egupipment. I with my friend,we were litle boys then, cocked-off in fire few pistol rounds he've got from living Russians :)...I'm sure that soldiers in A-stan weren't more disciplined than those in Poland.....

[RomanS]

Hermanek,
Poland is not fighting Russia

There is a difference between selling some ammo to a Pole, or to a mudjahadeen.

I consider Poland as our good budds.

Never considered muslims to be our buddies.

[Herrmannek]

Hermanek,
Poland is not fighting Russia

There is a difference between selling some ammo to a Pole, or to a mudjahadeen.

I consider Poland as our good budds.

Never considered muslims to be our buddies.

You are right, but selling military goods in lot amounts by plain soldiers isn't good sign of discipline. :)

[Rebel 7]

Am I the only one who see's something odd here?

Buddy you were not even born when the Soviets left Afghanistan,the fact that you left when you were 1,would make that 1993,4 years after the Soviet withdrawl.
Kabul fell to the Mujihadeen in 1992,but your family fled when you were 1,which would be 1994 or therabouts in which time it was the Mujihadeen who were in control of of most of Afghanistan,it was in the summer of 95 that the Taliban came to power,who did your family flee from,it wasn't the Soviets as they had long gone before your Birth,and if it was the taliban,it was at the very start of their reign?........I'm curious that's all
You fled to Pakistan.....who were supporters of the Taliban for the best part of the 90's....out of the frying pan into the fire...yet you said you fled because your father would not convert to communism......I wasn't aware that the Mujihadeen or for that matter the Taliban practiced communism!


I truly want to believe you but your story is full of holes

Bro...I said I was 21. I was born in 1982. Where did u get the idea that I was born in 1993. As for the rest of your post, it relies on the false assumtion that I was born in 1993.

[RomanS]

so keyboard "dushman",

i want to see articles from valuable sources and evidence of Soviet Soldiers doing what you described.

I can't wait.


Till then, you too can go **** yourself with your bull****.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I wil try to judge you objectively. The crimes you described seem a combination of Nazi and Japansese crime during World War 2. Fair enough. Yet with all these crimes you "forgot" to mention the "signature" russian execution: Attaching a dude to 2 BTRs and "stretching" him out a bit. I mean, if the soldiers did all the **** u described, did they forget about the signature move or something.
Also, even the most anti-soviet material on afghanistan never mentioned anything COMPARABLE to what you described.
You might be from afghanistan and your relatives might have been part of the resistance, but the chances of all your accusations being true is smaller then the chance of me getting a royal flush in Texas Hold Em on the first hand :cantbeli:

[Argyll]

:oops: yeah sorry i was getting ahead of myself with the time,my apologies,my arithmatic was never any good!

[UkrainianAmerican]

so keyboard "dushman",

i want to see articles from valuable sources and evidence of Soviet Soldiers doing what you described.

I can't wait.


Till then, you too can go f*** yourself with your bull****.
Hell I dont think there are ANY sources (including Al-jeez even) that can support his claim, with tha probable exception of kavkaz.net

[RomanS]

Nuh bro
Russian raping, killing, taking babies out, bombing with toy bombs, chemical weapons, tearing apart with BTRs, burning villages is already copyrighted by the Chechens. they already got that **** covered well enough.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Nuh bro
Russian raping, killing, taking babies out, bombing with toy bombs, chemical weapons, tearing apart with BTRs, burning villages is already copyrighted by the Chechens. they already got that **** covered well enough.
O, my bad.
:lol:

[Russian Texan]

Rebel, what undermines your credibility the most is the fact that you relatives were mujahadeen. I mean they fought against USSR and you grew up listening to their stories...naturally they are not going to tell stories about how "polite and curteous" russian soldiers were, they were the enemy and not only that, they were also "infidels"...

You do realise that "interview" with a russian soldier that you have posted fully justifies minefields and destruction of villages. When locals shot at soldiers backs, "peaceful peasants" attacked convoys, mutilated POWs bodies, skinned people alive and women urinated on dead/wounded soldiers...darling, you should be happy that russians didn't use tactical nukes, o'key...

Your stories have so many things that "don't exactly add up", that I don't even know where to start. You see the difference between people in Afganistan, Pakistan, etc. and people who live civilized world is an access to information: I have 250+ TV channels(including international), broadband internet, satelite radio in the car and other thigs that give me access to events around the world. Now lets see what sources of information do people in the mentioned above regions have: legends, elderly, tenth hand accounts, koran and mulla... I mean dude, for people there whatever sheikh or mulla tells them is the only truth.

To put it simply: you are young, impressionable and brainwashed by your less than educated mullas and elderly.

BTW, regarding "pro russian kids" it is not the fact that you are the youngest on this thread, you see - age frequently does not reflect maturity and ability to think independently and analyze information.

Yes alcohol problem existed in Afganistan among soviet troops but not on a scale that you are trying to portrait, it was a stress relief for the people who didn't know what kind of "surprise" locals were going to do next.

Drugs problem - insignificant at the moment but much large later. USSR, due to its strict laws, never had a problem with drugs but Afgan war introduced many soviet soldiers to morpheine and some local "products", so when they came back - it "spilled".

Soviet troops selling things to the locals - yes. Clothing, food, tools, spare parts, etc. Firearms and ammunition - rarely and those who did were dealt with accordingly.

Soviet army not being desciplined. No military in the world is "disciplined" because it is made out of people, not robots, people who are subject to stress and have personal problems/issues. Military just like any other large organization or business is always in some kind of "state of organized chaos" that still somehow works and works if not efficiently then well...

As for what you call "propoganda" about soviets building schools, hospitals, delivering babies, helping wounded, etc.
The thing is that my parents have several friends/colleagues who worked as doctors in Afganistan during those years. And check this out: One of them has a picture of him and a little afgani boy to whom he gave blood because that boy stepped on a chineese made mine....

[UkrainianAmerican]

As for what you call "propoganda" about soviets building schools, hospitals, delivering babies, helping wounded, etc.
The thing is that my parents have several friends/colleagues who worked as doctors in Afganistan during those years. And check this out: One of them has a picture of him and a little afgani boy to whom he gave blood because that boy stepped on a chineese made mine....
How NAIVE can you get?
The doctor was OBVIOUSLY using the litttle innocent boy as a guinea pig for his experiments. He was Josef Mengele wanna be! rofl rofl rofl
(sarcasm)

[vitiaz]

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

-Tennyson

Since Alexander the Great (325 BC) , the Brits in 1842 , the Soviets in the '80's its ALWAYS been a tough 'neighborhood'. And so it goes....

[ibstolidude]

I recently went to Afghanistan. I ask you to do the same if you really want to find out whether what I state is true of false. Don't believe me, but go see for yourself as all the evidence is there in Afghanistan to fill any doubts you have. To say that the Soviets committed SOME atrocities would get the Afghan population either mad or laughing in anger at how stupid of a comment that is. -- You think anyone wants to admit they were invovled in a criminal militia that had no regard for human life (including women and children)?! Come on....no one is that stupid!

Actually not to be for or against...I have been there and was told stories of wome Russian acts...but they tended more toward a lack of regard of "collateral damage" and general rude mistreat/handling. There certainly were stories of "more", but hardly ever first hand. There were first hand accounts of supporters of NajiBullah, Afghanis traning in Russian schools (military included - pilots etc).. I will tell you there were a lot of hard muther****ers telling me about what they would do to the Russians and to any collabporators when they caught them. buried alive, tortured, poisoned, etc. - some of the photos and more importantly videos confiscated or volounteered to us would, make your heart race and stomach turn.

Not taking sides: I am sure it is nieve to believe some Russians didn't get out of hand (just as some Americans have done), but let us not pretend that it wasn't a war and that the Geneva convention abiding, poor, simple people in Afghanistan were all smiles.

[16 OBr SpN]

Rebel7,

Ba hamin forum bisyor hush omaded! :)
Shumo Afghonistona az kadom shaharash meshaved? Mebahshaved, ba zaboni dori 8 sol boza gap nazadem. ;)


In Afghanistan, pregnant women were raped and their stomachs cut open and the baby taken out and thrown in the fire.



The Soviet soldiers would go into a village, gang rape the women, execute the children and round up the men to torture.

Villages; dates; names....??


I know some Soviet soldiers were good men, they became disillusioned and changed sides and became anti-Soviet resistance fighters working with the Mujahideen.

This is the funniest thing I've read so far. Give me at least a name; unit; location.


The Soviet military machine designed butterfly bombs that looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children who were curious and whom they knew would pick up these little bombs thinking they were toys.

Apparently, you have no idea about this mine. The "butterfly" (PMF-1) is an anti-personnel mine. The bomb detonates when somebody actually steps on it. How does a child "pick up" a mine which is buried under the ground? Besides, these mines are laid by hundreds with the use of special artillery shells. The distance between these mines on a minefield is usually 30-50 cm. So you are saying that a kid could approach a minefield from a certain side, not entering the middle of it, and actually dig up that single one, right on the outer perimeter?? Unless he had a map of a minefield.... :roll:

I agree that an AP mine is a nasty thing which doesn't recognise between men and children. But for Christ's sake, stating that they were "intentionally" made to look like a toy and kill children is just plain bull****!!


One story he told me a while back was this one time they were travelling in a convoy, and one Soviet soldier was trying to impress his superiors who were with them on the convoy, and a young girl ran by the convoy and went by a nearby river to collect water. My uncle turned around to light up a cigarette and heard a loud BOOM. He turned his head to the direction where the explosioin came and saw the little girl's flesh scattered all over with pieces of her clothes hanging from the flesh, and he saw the Soviet soldier smiling and puting down the RPG he used on her so that he could impress his superiors with his extreme sense of brutality.

Let's imagine, they were moving in the column. Guy pulls out an RPG. BTW, where did he fire it from? And your uncle heard the explosion, but not the RPG fire right near him?? :)
One more thing, when someone fires an RPG in an area where other soldiers are nearby, there is a certain procedure. First of all, they say "Vnimanie", just to make sure that no one is behind the tube. I guess your uncle didn't hear that too... ;)
Was he firing from a moving car? Or was it BTR; BMP?

One more thing, Afghans were NEVER traveling in columns which were transporting the higher command. We just simply didn't trust them...

And one more thing, impressing commanders by wasting grenades, is like trying to impress the police, by driving at 120 km/h in the city. Simply stupid, considering our military regulations.

One more thing, firing an RPG while moving in a column which is supposedly transporting some of the senior commanders, is absolute NONSENSE. Do you know what happens when someone from a column fires a gun (leave alone RPG)?? They start shooting too. And if that was a joke, then the "joker" gets a living **** beaten out of him.
This is WAR, not airball contest!!


There are no human rights in Afghanistan." This was the conclusion of a team from the U.S. Helsinki Watch Committee that interviewed more than 100 Afghan refugees in September 1984. "They tied them up and piled them like wood," said a doctor who saw the Soviets punish an entire village after Afghan troops defected. "They poured gasoline over them and burned them alive. There were old and young, men, women and children. Forty poeple were killed."

Again no names of villages given...


A resistance leader spoke of two old, blind men who stayed behind when a village was abandoned. "The Russians tied dynamite to their backs and blew them up."

Of course, this makes perfect sense to waste "dynamite" on two people rather than just shooting 2 bullets in their heads! :roll:
BTW, I wonder what "dynamite" is he talking about??


Another described how Russians held a child over a fire while questioning Afghan villagers about the mujahedin. In 1985, Soviet troops encircled five villages in northern Afghanistan, entered every house, and killed 600 civilians, including women and children, before putting the houses to the torch. Such atrocities were commonplace, and the devastation wrought by the Soviets resulted in near-famine conditions in many provinces; infant mortality caused by malnutrition reached 85 percent in the Panjsher Valley in 1985. (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "The Eighties Club: 47. Afghanistan")


Names of those villages?



One 1986 report on Afghanistan read: "In three small villages near Qandahar, last year, the Soviets killed close to 350 women and children in retailiation for a Mujahidin attack in the vicinity. After slitting the throats of the children, disemboweling pregnant women, raping, shooting and mutilating others, the Russians poured a substance on the bodies which caused instant decomposition." (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "Stiff right jab: Politically correct butchers of the 20th century")


What kind of a substance is that, if I may ask? Just imagine, having 350 bodies, and having this "magical liquid" which "instantly decomposes" them. What is it, acid?? OK then I guess they needed so much of that ****, that they needed a separate truck for that or maybe even building a pool! Please stop feeding this bull****.

BTW, again no names of villages given.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

I knew my thread would get a bunch of pro-Red Army kids pissed. Anyways, for the kid questioning whether I am Afghan. Too fekir kadi ke ma Afghan nestum wa kadi azee kapit akhmaq-eeta neshan dadi.

Ba fikri man, hich ki ba inja akhmaqesha neshan nametiyat. Agar tu ba gapoi hudad javob namedodagi boshi, tu devonageta nishon dodi.


In Pakistan, my father worked for Inter-Aid (an NGO) and was responsible for the distribution of supplies and materials to refugees. He sat down with many of them and was told of their personal stories of what they witnessed. Even Soviet soldiers admit that they had total disregard for human life (whether woman or child) in Afghanistan.

When/who did that?


I posted valid sites which pointed out atrocities committed by the Taliban and yet the pro-Taliban people wouldn't believe me, and so too do these pro-Red Army guys who are too ashamed or too stupid to admit what happened.

I admit there were abuses, just like in any military conflict. 99% of those abuses were cases of misfire and accidental bomb drops. The other one was a case outside Mazar-i-Sharif, when guys (I think border troops), were shooting at a village with AGS-17's from time to time. It was done as a revenge after their outpost was basically slughtered and the bodies of our soldiers were mutilated by sickles, and their heads smashed by stones. Later, one of the locals gave us the names of those who participated. 90% of them were from that village, but the main guy behind the attack escaped.

The other problematic issue was/is minefields. I served in Afghanistan from 1983 till 1989. Although our unit was dispatched to one region, within those six years I've been through many parts of the country.
I've never even heard of such stories you state to be true.
BTW, when soldiers were entering cities/villages, they were ALWAYS accompanied by KHAD and/or ZARANDOY. I'm sure they could have given some information. In your case all these bull**** stories are based on words of resistance leaders.

One more thing, at least don't try feed ME with the bull**** of how "poor" Afghans commited attrocities against our soldiers, as a response to our "attrocities". Unlike you, who left Afghanistan while being a small kid, I saw many things about that country and its people with my own eyes when I was over my 20's. And I understood many things...

Besides, I was not a regular conscript soldier. I was taught first of all to think and analyse.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[obd]

Hey 16obr spn and other Russians on this site. I respect alot of what you have had to say but I must also respectfully disagree with your defense of Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan. There can be no doubt that soviet soldiers committed attrocities just as there can be no doubt that American soldiers also committed attrocities.

The times were difficult as both American and USSR were fighting eachother using proxy wars. Countless human rights groups from around the world have documented the Russian attrocities as have Afghan witnesses who have no real vested interest in lying now so many years later..... The fact that a US camera crew might pay them to talk on camera does not nullify the very real emotions. Also, many of these "testimonies" are simply revisited cases by CNN,BBC, etc of testimony given out by Afghans earlier with no hope of any profit.

Now, I must also say that the war in Afghanistan was brutal on both sides and there was alot of simple retaliation. I do not blame the men themselves for what they did as I have never been to combat. I always have argued in defense of Vietnam vets that one must be careful in his/her judgement of soldiers tactical actions because I was not there, did not undergo the stress, and I have the luxury of hindsight. Oftentimes in war, soldiers make only split second choices to shoot or not to shoot and most take the choice of preserving thier own lives and shooting first if there is any question......

Now, I also feel it is important to accept Soviet attrocities just as it is important to accept American attricites like May Lai (spelling?) because I think it is a useful form a catharsis in post war times. And yes, Soviet officers, according to virtually all sources I have read, including Russian officers talking candidly about thier own actions, participated in attrocities. Now, you can tell me I wasnt there, Im not Russian, Im just a kid etc etc but I think you would have a more difficult time telling that to former Spetsnaz officers (I realize you are also former Russian military) giving testimony years later and telling of how only now they were free to speak truth and they have been waiting years to get it of thier chests as an emotional release....In the runup to war in A-stan, there was a great interest, understandably, in the Russian war and a great many Russian vets from A-stan came forward to speak candidly, often for the first time, about thier experiences. Much of it was advice about terrain, political analysis, combat experience etc etc etc but a surprisingly large number of them spoke of widepread attrocities on both sides and thier regret of thier actions. This is also very similar with respect to Chechnya.

Again, I blame none as I see it as "tit for tat" retaliation. The Chechens are very brutal and of course Russian troops whose buddies were filmed having thier throats slit are not going to be very nice to the next few captured bandits. I have seen the video's of Chechen "interogations" of Russian troops. I have seen the fingers being cut off and shot off, the slit throats, the beheadings in the woods but I have also seen footage made by Chechens of Russian attrocities like the aftermath of village searches. There is no doubt that Russian rape squads and looting squads did and do exist in Chechnya. This has been documented by British, American, and other European reporters and also human rights groups...... Im only trying to say that it is important to be forthright and honest about what really happened. Thats all. I have no intent to offend and I hope I did not ofend any of you Russians who lost loved ones in A-stan or Chechnya. Again, I repect all of you as soldiers and I do not judge what you did or did not do...I only say that whatever happened, it must be told...........

[Operation Ivy]

at least he used paragraphs :D

[anonymous individual]

at least he used paragraphs :D

rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Beowulf]

I recently went to Afghanistan. I ask you to do the same if you really want to find out whether what I state is true of false. Don't believe me, but go see for yourself as all the evidence is there in Afghanistan to fill any doubts you have. To say that the Soviets committed SOME atrocities would get the Afghan population either mad or laughing in anger at how stupid of a comment that is. -- You think anyone wants to admit they were invovled in a criminal militia that had no regard for human life (including women and children)?! Come on....no one is that stupid!

Actually not to be for or against...I have been there and was told stories of wome Russian acts...but they tended more toward a lack of regard of "collateral damage" and general rude mistreat/handling. There certainly were stories of "more", but hardly ever first hand. There were first hand accounts of supporters of NajiBullah, Afghanis traning in Russian schools (military included - pilots etc).. I will tell you there were a lot of hard f*** telling me about what they would do to the Russians and to any collabporators when they caught them. buried alive, tortured, poisoned, etc. - some of the photos and more importantly videos confiscated or volounteered to us would, make your heart race and stomach turn.

Not taking sides: I am sure it is nieve to believe some Russians didn't get out of hand (just as some Americans have done), but let us not pretend that it wasn't a war and that the Geneva convention abiding, poor, simple people in Afghanistan were all smiles.

What he said....but from a different part of the country

[16 OBr SpN]

I think you would have a more difficult time telling that to former Spetsnaz officers (I realize you are also former Russian military) giving testimony years later and telling of how only now they were free to speak truth and they have been waiting years to get it of thier chests as an emotional release....

I actually think I would have a MUCH easier time talking to one of my colleagues. ;)
And believe me, we DO talk about the subject when we get together. Interesting fact, none of them had stated something like the bull**** written in this thread.


I have also seen footage made by Chechens of Russian attrocities like the aftermath of village searches.

What did the video look like? They show bodies of "civilians", sometimes putting civilian clothes right on top of camo. They take several people, and make them give the interview. What they say is that the filming is done after a "clean-up" (zachistka). And where did all the soldiers go!? Where they filming during or after it?
Man, this is called propaganda. Some of the bodies are clearly blown by AP mines; heads of some are blown apart by KPVT; etc. These are all mudjahedins. I can come up to any dead body and state that it was a civilian and that Russians/Chechens/Americans killed him... Are you going to believe this crap?


There is no doubt that Russian rape squads and looting squads did and do exist in Chechnya.

Wow, I wonder what those rape squads look like?? :roll:
I've been there numerous times, but haven't even heard of them. Well maybe you guys know it better sitting in America...


This has been documented by British, American, and other European reporters and also human rights groups......

Where has it been documented? What reporters? They don't have the authorisation to be there.

I don't give a **** what some countries and "human rights" activists think about that war. I have my own reasons, based on my experience and the information that we were given. America, Britain, etc... countries who supported Chechen guerillas in the first place... now serve as the "voice of reason".... :roll:

Long live double standards...

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[RomanS]

Why not present such a documented event here?

You know one thing ? Chechens always call themselves the brave "nohchies" with blood of wolf in them. I even remember the message by Arbi "tarzan" Baraev to us.

He was saying that he will get the infidels everywhere.

Let me try to accuratly repeat the speech.

"We mudjaheds of Djamaat, will fight the kafiri until the end. We see their every move. Our intellegence is better then theirs. We record their bases, and their activities all the time. The Russian kafiri will not know when the next attack will come. We pick the time and place....."

I know about their scout units, and recon operations. Before an atack on the column, or planting a road side "fugas" explosives, they video document the location, activities, they will even walk and record the route of the "soon to be ****ed up convoy".

They had our maps, our radio coms, and often dressed up in our uniforms to confuse our guys during their operations.

Like here.

watch this video
http://download.utro.ru/download//vol2.rm

Now I would like to know something, so please HELP ME HERE

Maybe I'm stupid, and have no understanding of traditional tactic called "propaganda", but don't you think Chechens are not doing a good job with theirs?

Why not record the atrocities on tape. Why not hide somewhere 200 ft away, and get a good Canon TelePhoto lense (its only $2000), much cheaper then Igla or Strela missle, or **** even the Stinger.
They are masters of hiding in the bushes. So why not just sit there, and record the atorcities commited by Russians on tape. Or even a photo, of a single Russian soldier - executing a chechen women.

Maybe just a blurry glimpse of an OMON officer blasting the older people with his PKM. Should be that hard, if this **** happens constantly and through out all of Chechnya.

Just 20 seconds of Russian soldiers burrying 10,000 of Chechen bodies with BMPs or MTLBs. Because you gotta be some dumb **** to dig a whole for 10,000 people with just shovels. That would take a while.
So why not document that, and show it to the world?

Could you imagine if the world sees this? Wouldn't that be the end of Russian campaign in Chechnya?

When our boys return from their shift, we always throw a party for them. Vodka, zakuson and the fresh meat is on us. At night we sit down, and watch their tour tapes. Be it Perm Omon, Sverdlov SOBR, or ROSICH og BB, they document their tours a lot.

Let me tell you whats on tapes.

Your everyday life. Breakfast, goofing in front of the camera, showing off fresh scars, cleaning weapons, showing around their living environment, laughters and jokes, blockposts, saying hi to their families, BTRs, BMPs, Kozliki, sometimes Hips flying in the sky, Hinds, Strizhiki Syshki, driving on the roads, checking documents of locals, talking to the locals about the bandits, inspecting basements, aticts, backyards, cars etc.

I've even seen some of the ambushes on terrorists performed by MVD unit XXXXXX. Who we spent some time with last summer.

Nothing spectacular. Actually everything is fast, instant. Ski masks, quietly sitting along side of the road, 14 guys. One sniper with SVD 70 meters away covered by grass. Explosives for the "flash effect" are placed on the road. Blue Niva jeep shows up, booom, PKMs AKMs and Kedrs rattle quickly, and pepper the car with hundred bullet holes. Injured Chechen tries to come out, but another burst from PKM splits his head in the broken window of a car.

Our guys screaming for anyone who's could be still in the car and maybe a live to come out, right when 3 operators come from the back and clear the car. Anyone who still might be moving is quickly finished.

Mostly all the drama begins in the aftermath. Heavy breathing, nerves, water, medical attention, radio comunications, and Omon guys trying to keep the civilians away.

However, we do get a lot of tapes from our Chechen Spielbergs and Camerons.
One in particular i remember a lot.

1999 Dagestan Tuhchar
6 soldiers of 22nd brigade of MVD were captured and now standing on the grass.
On the tape there was Khattab asking the names of the 6 guys, and their birth places. After screaming at the poor 19 year olds, he lectured them on Islam, and how bad Russian government is.

The kids were scared ****less already enough. After that, Khatab and his "freedom" fighters draged away the oldest guy, who was an officer (God bless his soul), and cuth is throat.

They collected his blood in the jar, and Khatab personally drinked the blood of infidels for Allah in front of the camera.

The rest of the 5 guys were executed in the same way.

Everything was recorded on a tape. One of the Russian guys was kicking the ground as they tried to insert the knife deeper in his throat. So another "rebel" kicks him in his side.

Just remembering this tape makes me dizzy. And it really disturbs the **** out of me...

Anyways,
tape after tape, its all the same ****in ****. Road bomb explosion, executions of the soldiers, more attacks on the convoys followed by amputation of the head with a bayonet (this one was graphic, because the bayonet was dull), attack on the blockpost followed by more executions.

Maybe ****in ENOUGH of this ****?

So tell me...
WHY CAN'T THEY RECORD OUR SOLDIERS COMMITING ALL THE CRIMES?

i am waiting for your reply.

[anonymous individual]

Every single Russian posted on this thread is heated with rage and anger...

Why cannot there be more of this :hug: and less this :bash: ???


Maybe some day... just some day...

[Rebel 7]

Rebel7,

Ba hamin forum bisyor hush omaded! :)
Shumo Afghonistona az kadom shaharash meshaved? Mebahshaved, ba zaboni dori 8 sol boza gap nazadem. ;)


In Afghanistan, pregnant women were raped and their stomachs cut open and the baby taken out and thrown in the fire.



The Soviet soldiers would go into a village, gang rape the women, execute the children and round up the men to torture.

Villages; dates; names....??


I know some Soviet soldiers were good men, they became disillusioned and changed sides and became anti-Soviet resistance fighters working with the Mujahideen.

This is the funniest thing I've read so far. Give me at least a name; unit; location.


The Soviet military machine designed butterfly bombs that looked like toys with the INTENT of killing young children who were curious and whom they knew would pick up these little bombs thinking they were toys.

Apparently, you have no idea about this mine. The "butterfly" (PMF-1) is an anti-personnel mine. The bomb detonates when somebody actually steps on it. How does a child "pick up" a mine which is buried under the ground? Besides, these mines are laid by hundreds with the use of special artillery shells. The distance between these mines on a minefield is usually 30-50 cm. So you are saying that a kid could approach a minefield from a certain side, not entering the middle of it, and actually dig up that single one, right on the outer perimeter?? Unless he had a map of a minefield.... :roll:

I agree that an AP mine is a nasty thing which doesn't recognise between men and children. But for Christ's sake, stating that they were "intentionally" made to look like a toy and kill children is just plain bull****!!


One story he told me a while back was this one time they were travelling in a convoy, and one Soviet soldier was trying to impress his superiors who were with them on the convoy, and a young girl ran by the convoy and went by a nearby river to collect water. My uncle turned around to light up a cigarette and heard a loud BOOM. He turned his head to the direction where the explosioin came and saw the little girl's flesh scattered all over with pieces of her clothes hanging from the flesh, and he saw the Soviet soldier smiling and puting down the RPG he used on her so that he could impress his superiors with his extreme sense of brutality.

Let's imagine, they were moving in the column. Guy pulls out an RPG. BTW, where did he fire it from? And your uncle heard the explosion, but not the RPG fire right near him?? :)
One more thing, when someone fires an RPG in an area where other soldiers are nearby, there is a certain procedure. First of all, they say "Vnimanie", just to make sure that no one is behind the tube. I guess your uncle didn't hear that too... ;)
Was he firing from a moving car? Or was it BTR; BMP?

One more thing, Afghans were NEVER traveling in columns which were transporting the higher command. We just simply didn't trust them...

And one more thing, impressing commanders by wasting grenades, is like trying to impress the police, by driving at 120 km/h in the city. Simply stupid, considering our military regulations.

One more thing, firing an RPG while moving in a column which is supposedly transporting some of the senior commanders, is absolute NONSENSE. Do you know what happens when someone from a column fires a gun (leave alone RPG)?? They start shooting too. And if that was a joke, then the "joker" gets a living **** beaten out of him.
This is WAR, not airball contest!!


There are no human rights in Afghanistan." This was the conclusion of a team from the U.S. Helsinki Watch Committee that interviewed more than 100 Afghan refugees in September 1984. "They tied them up and piled them like wood," said a doctor who saw the Soviets punish an entire village after Afghan troops defected. "They poured gasoline over them and burned them alive. There were old and young, men, women and children. Forty poeple were killed."

Again no names of villages given...


A resistance leader spoke of two old, blind men who stayed behind when a village was abandoned. "The Russians tied dynamite to their backs and blew them up."

Of course, this makes perfect sense to waste "dynamite" on two people rather than just shooting 2 bullets in their heads! :roll:
BTW, I wonder what "dynamite" is he talking about??


Another described how Russians held a child over a fire while questioning Afghan villagers about the mujahedin. In 1985, Soviet troops encircled five villages in northern Afghanistan, entered every house, and killed 600 civilians, including women and children, before putting the houses to the torch. Such atrocities were commonplace, and the devastation wrought by the Soviets resulted in near-famine conditions in many provinces; infant mortality caused by malnutrition reached 85 percent in the Panjsher Valley in 1985. (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "The Eighties Club: 47. Afghanistan")


Names of those villages?



One 1986 report on Afghanistan read: "In three small villages near Qandahar, last year, the Soviets killed close to 350 women and children in retailiation for a Mujahidin attack in the vicinity. After slitting the throats of the children, disemboweling pregnant women, raping, shooting and mutilating others, the Russians poured a substance on the bodies which caused instant decomposition." (For the entire article containing this quote, go to "Stiff right jab: Politically correct butchers of the 20th century")


What kind of a substance is that, if I may ask? Just imagine, having 350 bodies, and having this "magical liquid" which "instantly decomposes" them. What is it, acid?? OK then I guess they needed so much of that ****, that they needed a separate truck for that or maybe even building a pool! Please stop feeding this bull****.

BTW, again no names of villages given.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

The details you ask of me are of things I have heard over years and some of the details I do not fully remember. However, with that said, if you want, I will do an in-depth study on this with those relatives of mine involved in the war and will personally provide stoires that are not as vague. Now, your claims that my post is BS is based on what....YOUR first hand-accounts. You are an ex-Soviet soldier. THe last person on this earth to reveal the TRUTH about the atrocities of the Soviets would be you. It is like asking a Talib about the atrocities they committed against ethnic Tajiks an Hazaras. Don't you find it ironic how no one would believe a Taliban soldier about his "accouts" yet we are expected to assume that you (an ex-Soviet soldier with his credibility and "reputation" on the line) to expose the "TRUTH." Give me a freakin break. Why don't we just ask the Nazis if there ever was a holocaust? Dude, you claim that what I post is based on "stories"....what the hell is your post based on....photographs or videos??!! The only thing you have shown thus far is a few descriptions of the unit you were in and the areas you travelled....how does this prove anything about any atrocities that you guys did or did not commit? Show me the vidoes and photographs of Afghans smiling at you and thanking you? Show me pictures of things that would show some humanity on the part of your army? Show me pictures of the villages and the fact that the villagers in that village were not harmed? You travelled to Afghanistan, obviously you took some photographs....prove to us what you claim and prove to us that my claims are lies rather than making merely half-assed assumptions and accusations. I mean 1,,000,000+ Afghans didn't die because they shot themselves....obviously this was done by a military with the power to create mass destruction....

Later,

Rebel 7

[cut]

and so it began...

[RomanS]

are there any Nazis left today from that time?

I'm not talking about wannabee kids with white power around.

I'm sure if you find a real alive nazi and ask him about holocaust, he will tell you all about it.

Lets for a minute put aside the military history of our 2 countries.
Afghanistan was invaded many times
Russia was invaded many times
blah blah blah


What kind of noble prize scientists or cultural breakthrough came out of Afghanistan for the past 100 years???

please share with us

[Rebel 7]

My apologizes to all those that I cannot reply to. I have tried to reply in way that answers or criticizes most arguments against me in a way that may apply to more than one post criticizing my accounts or post. This is a debate, I do not hate anyone. Although the debate may get heated and words of hate may be exchanged, it is a forum, and a place where we share our views even if it is done in anger and frustration. Making others understand is not an easy thing, especially since their views contradict yours. As for those who replied in a manner reminscent of wild zoo animals (I don't know the commies name but he said the f word a lot)...I will ignore you as I do not like responding to mules who will only heeh-hauh in reply. Thank you.

Later,
Rebel 7

[Rebel 7]

Every single Russian posted on this thread is heated with rage and anger...

Why cannot there be more of this :hug: and less this :bash: ???


Maybe some day... just some day...

There is an old saying that goes: "The more we sweat in times of peace, the less blood we shed in times of war."

Later,
Rebel 7

[Rebel 7]

Also, anyone who thinks that I support criminal Mujahideen members such as Gulbudeen or Zardad are mistaken. I neither support them nor the Taliban. In fact, I despise them more so than the Soviet army. Those who claim that I am a taliban supporter or other such baseless accuations are commies pissed at the fact that their has-been little Red Army is being exposed as not only incompetent (see the Panjshir truck as well as the fact that they could not take Panjshir with 9 major offensives and destroyed themselves fighting a country with no modern war technology...hence the collapse of the Soviet empire) but as criminals. No commie likes to have their criminal activities exposed, so obviously they resort to ad homenin atttacks. I guess Socrates was right.

Later,
Rebel 7

[Rebel 7]

Every single Russian posted on this thread is heated with rage and anger...

Why cannot there be more of this :hug: and less this :bash: ???


Maybe some day... just some day...

There is an old saying that goes: "The more we sweat in times of peace, the less blood we shed in times of war."

Later,
Rebel 7

Oh actually it is: "The more we sweat in times of peace, the less we bleed in times of war."

Sorry for the small error.

[RomanS]

Rebel,

I dont give a **** if you reply to me or not.
My life will not even change for a micro second.

Because to me you are the same as the ****ers on kavkazcenter.com
worthless goats

[16 OBr SpN]

The details you ask of me are of things I have heard over years and some of the details I do not fully remember. However, with that said, if you want, I will do an in-depth study on this with those relatives of mine involved in the war and will personally provide stoires that are not as vague. Now, your claims that my post is BS is based on what....YOUR first hand-accounts. You are an ex-Soviet soldier. THe last person on this earth to reveal the TRUTH about the atrocities of the Soviets would be you. It is like asking a Talib about the atrocities they committed against ethnic Tajiks an Hazaras. Don't you find it ironic how no one would believe a Taliban soldier about his "accouts" yet we are expected to assume that you (an ex-Soviet soldier with his credibility and "reputation" on the line) to expose the "TRUTH." Give me a freakin break. Why don't we just ask the Nazis if there ever was a holocaust? Dude, you claim that what I post is based on "stories"....what the hell is your post based on....photographs or videos??!! The only thing you have shown thus far is a few descriptions of the unit you were in and the areas you travelled....how does this prove anything about any atrocities that you guys did or did not commit? Show me the vidoes and photographs of Afghans smiling at you and thanking you? Show me pictures of things that would show some humanity on the part of your army? Show me pictures of the villages and the fact that the villagers in that village were not harmed? You travelled to Afghanistan, obviously you took some photographs....prove to us what you claim and prove to us that my claims are lies rather than making merely half-assed assumptions and accusations. I mean 1,,000,000+ Afghans didn't die because they shot themselves....obviously this was done by a military with the power to create mass destruction....

That would be great to hear those detailed stories. Please don't forget to include dates, names of villages too, and possibly units which participated in "attrocities" at that place. This info should be available to you.

You were the one who started these accusations, and yet haven't backed them up yet. Ball is on your side...

So far, here are my observations about your posts. They didn't rise simply because I don't trust you. It's because it's just common sense combined with my humble knowledge in this field. ;)

1) The story about "butterfly" mines - bull****.
2) The story with your uncle traveling in our column - bull****.
3) The story about 350 people being poured by "decomposing liquid" - bull****.
4) No village names were given.
5) Two blind people blown up by "dynamite" - bull****.

So, I'll be waiting....

Salomat bosh!

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

P.S. Пермский ОМОН:

Это очередная душара недобитая! Чувствуешь как у этого козла желчь кипит? :)

[RomanS]

What truck?
the one you donkeys made out of our shotdown Hip?


Why did our government cared so much about it? I still don't get it.

[jamesp]

watch this video
http://download.utro.ru/download//vol2.rm



Wow, I wish I never watched that now. It had my heart going and now I feel pretty uneasy. I don't usually feel that way either. :(

[Dmitri]

Oh actually it is: "The more we sweat in times of peace, the less we bleed in times of war."
I agree, if someone doesn't like this thread, just stay out of it. This is a pretty serious issue, and some way or another it should be resolved and at least some truth should be found...

Don't you find it ironic how no one would believe a Taliban soldier about his "accouts" yet we are expected to assume that you (an ex-Soviet soldier with his credibility and "reputation" on the line) to expose the "TRUTH." Give me a freakin break.So far thats all you have provided yourself :roll:

However, with that said, if you want, I will do an in-depth study on this with those relatives of mine involved in the war and will personally provide stoires that are not as vague.Why don't you go ahead and do that. You mentioned you are going to college with like 16 hours? Thats ok, you should have plenty of time, I'm in the same situation, and I have plenty of time, so should you.....

mean 1,,000,000+ Afghans didn't die because they shot themselves....obviously this was done by a military with the power to create mass destruction....
Wow, don't be backing up... First you accuse of complete intentional murder of civilians and such with numerous atrocities, now this; now one said war didn't exist and people didn't die, just not like you describe it.... Stay on the track

commie likes to have their criminal activities exposed, so obviously they resort to ad homenin atttacksIf you noticed, communism passed away more than a decade ago in Russia, and is not extremely popular now at all, why would these guys hide anything now??
I mean:
Why don't we just ask the Nazis if there ever was a holocaust?There is a whole bunch of ex-SS dudes talking about it all the time on TV

[Dmitri]

What truck?
the one you donkeys made out of our shotdown Hip?
LOL, it wasn't even like they made that "state of the art" (ha-ha) bus out the chopper, the just took a truck and stuck the top part of the helicopter's carcas on it!!! woot

[Rebel 7]

The details you ask of me are of things I have heard over years and some of the details I do not fully remember. However, with that said, if you want, I will do an in-depth study on this with those relatives of mine involved in the war and will personally provide stoires that are not as vague. Now, your claims that my post is BS is based on what....YOUR first hand-accounts. You are an ex-Soviet soldier. THe last person on this earth to reveal the TRUTH about the atrocities of the Soviets would be you. It is like asking a Talib about the atrocities they committed against ethnic Tajiks an Hazaras. Don't you find it ironic how no one would believe a Taliban soldier about his "accouts" yet we are expected to assume that you (an ex-Soviet soldier with his credibility and "reputation" on the line) to expose the "TRUTH." Give me a freakin break. Why don't we just ask the Nazis if there ever was a holocaust? Dude, you claim that what I post is based on "stories"....what the hell is your post based on....photographs or videos??!! The only thing you have shown thus far is a few descriptions of the unit you were in and the areas you travelled....how does this prove anything about any atrocities that you guys did or did not commit? Show me the vidoes and photographs of Afghans smiling at you and thanking you? Show me pictures of things that would show some humanity on the part of your army? Show me pictures of the villages and the fact that the villagers in that village were not harmed? You travelled to Afghanistan, obviously you took some photographs....prove to us what you claim and prove to us that my claims are lies rather than making merely half-assed assumptions and accusations. I mean 1,,000,000+ Afghans didn't die because they shot themselves....obviously this was done by a military with the power to create mass destruction....

That would be great to hear those detailed stories. Please don't forget to include dates, names of villages too, and possibly units which participated in "attrocities" at that place. This info should be available to you.

You were the one who started these accusations, and yet haven't backed them up yet. Ball is on your side...

So far, here are my observations about your posts. They didn't rise simply because I don't trust you. It's because it's just common sense combined with my humble knowledge in this field. ;)

1) The story about "butterfly" mines - bull****.
2) The story with your uncle traveling in our column - bull****.
3) The story about 350 people being poured by "decomposing liquid" - bull****.
4) No village names were given.

So, I'll be waiting....

Salomat bosh!



Regards,
16 OBr SpN


1) The story about "butterfly" mines - bull****.
Dude, I am not an expert on weapons, but there are video footages I have where chidlren picked up these butterfly bombs and had their arms blown off. Dude, without even investigating my claims you merely proclaim that it is bull****. You claims against me are the only thing that is bull****. Get ready to look foolish.

http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2001-11-08/cover-3.jpg
This boy lost the use of his eyes when a Soviet butterfly bomb, built to maim, exploded in his face.

Here is a quote from an article (but then why would an ex-Soviet soldier bevlieve any evidence going against his "honorable" army?) We came to the bed of a 12-year-old boy with bandages over his hands and eyes. He picked up a bright green piece of plastic in an Afghan village and thought it to be a toy plane. It was a small Soviet anti-personnel butterfly bomb that exploded in his hands. The bombs don’t kill, they are designed to maim. The Soviets knew an injured person was more of a liability than a corpse in Afghanistan. [img]

http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2001-11-08/cover.asp


2) The story with your uncle traveling in our column - bull****.

I already made it clear that many of these stories were told to me many years ago and I do not recall everything to the most exact detail. However, I will look further into this story to gather the exact details. The main things that DID occur was that a girl was blown to pieces by a Soviet soldier and that they were travelling in a convoy when it happened and the purpose of doing it was to . The exact type of gernade or weapon used, the soldier who did it, etc...are information that was too detailed for me to bother asking for. These were personal stories and I did not hear them as though I was a journalist and documented every minute detail, because I wasn't a journalist and most of these accounts were told to me during small debates. Your claims is once again bull**** since you do not know me personally nor do you know my family who was invovled. You are merely making baseless accusations.



3) The story about 350 people being poured by "decomposing liquid" - bull****.

Let me ask you something. Did the Soviets use chemical weapons? Weren't mass graves revealed in Afghanistan after the Soviets withdrew? There are incidents where bodies were found to have decomposed. Even refugees my father met told him of these events. You an ex-Soviet soldier has to attempt to prove these as lies for the mere fact that what little credibility you have and whatever "reputation" you seem to hold is threatened. You are like the Taliban soldier who attempts to deny all the atrocities they committed by trying to attack a vague point in my argument. You aren't a part-time lawyer are you? Just as the "good" Talibs reputation would be on the line with such claims, so too is yours but then again...why would you claim to be a "bad" soldier in the first place even if you were?

http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2001-11-08/cover.asp
"Their stories of atrocities committed by the Soviets were hard to believe. A group of recent refugees claimed that the Soviets were hanging people in trees, then throwing gasoline on the bodies and lighting them on fire to strike fear into the hearts of the mujahideen. The men we spoke to said the atrocities didn’t scare them away. But I noticed the stories seemed to get Jim’s attention."


4) No village names were given.

Dude, why are you playing stupid?! Here try these names: Laghman, Panjshir, especially Jangalak, Rokha, Khenj.

So far, you have the only thing you have shown is that you are really good at saying "bull****" at others whose claims you cannot refute with facts or evidence. Where the hell are the pictures showing laghmani villagers smiling and thanking you or the evidence showing that no mass graves ever existed? Were is the evidence that chemical weapons weren't used and that the Soviets didn't make toy bombs to kill children? You surely don't think anyone here is stupid enough (besides your commie comrades) to believe anything you claim especially since YOU are after all a freakin ex-Soviet soldier, and what little credibility, "reputation," and so-called honour you have for your has-been army is on the line and is under attack. I mean, heck, if I am to believe your testimony without evidence and based just on YOUR "accounts" why the hell not just ask a Taliban soldier whether they really did burn and destroy villages in the Shamali plains and kill ethnic Tajiks and Hazaras and believe their "accounts" too?!

Tashakor as salamat-et tan. Shab-e-khush.

Later,
Rebel 7

[Rebel 7]

to pieces by a Soviet soldier and that they were travelling in a convoy when it happened and the purpose of doing it was to .

I was typing so quickly that I forgot to finish this sentence. "....the purpose of doing it was to impress his buddies or a superior."

[Rebel 7]

There are incidents where bodies were found to have decomposed.

decomposed so quicly that it hinted at the fact that chemicals must have been used. I will find more sources on this and post them.

[16 OBr SpN]

Rebel 7:

1) About the mine.
Where did I state that children didn't blow up on them? That's an unfortunate fact of conflicts where AP mines are/were used.

Here is my quote "I agree that an AP mine is a nasty thing which doesn't recognise between men and children. But for Christ's sake, stating that they were "intentionally" made to look like a toy and kill children is just plain bull****!! ".

2) So the girl was blown by RPG, when people were moving in the column?? I'm telling you one more time - a) firing grenades when you're moving within a column carrying a commander is NONSENSE! b) no Afghans were allowed to move in those columns. Therefore you're either making it up; or you should definitely clarify the story.

3) I'm not aware of use of chemical weapons in Afghanistan. The closest thing which might come to my mind using a specific chemical would be vacuum bombs.
Your quote, "decomposed so quicly that it hinted at the fact that chemicals must have been used".
Must have been? Or have been?
What about the chemical analysis of residue on the bodies?

Before I further comment on this subject, answer this question, where did you take it from? I don't see it on your link.

Salomat bosh!

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[obd]

16 obrspn and P-OMON: Look, its very unfair to basically take one sides propaganda (your own) and call it fact and take the other sides propaganda and call it fiction. I am very sorry but I have seen too much of the stuff from Chechnya to believe that the rape squads and the "clean-up" squads do not exist. They do. All you have to do is look at how many people dissappeared after being arrested by Russian troops. All you have to do is look at the photographs of dead Chechens who had been tortured. AP mines do not cut off fingers, eyes, genitals, etc but not touch anything else. Villagers donot do this to themselves 20 minutes after Russians leave when there are none left at all. Russian soldiers often actually do tell family's where to find thier loved ones after being "interrogated" by Russian forces if they pay them off. These loved ones are often found burried in shallow graves with clear and obvious signs of torture. These kinds of things, as I said earlier, are not just being documented by Chechens but by international human rights groups. I find it hard to believe that you two were part of special units in Chechnya yet know nothing of the massacres, rapes, and cleanups. You can deny it all you like but its impossible to hide what has happened to thousands............

In addition all you have to do is look at ANY pictures of ANY city in Chechnya and you will see straight away that Russians had little regard for human life. Most...no all....of the cities look like a nuclear bomb hit them. The old and weak were not given enough time to escape in many cases. Also, as Im sure you know, many Russians lived in Chechya at the time and they were very loyal to Russia. They thought of Russian troops as freinds until drunken troops started kidnapping and raping them in the middle of the night!!

Of course the Chechens in many cases gave Russian troops no other choice but to use artillery and Russia lacks the number of "smart" bombs to really use widespread pinpoint strikes from air but still....virtually the entire area of Chechnya looks like it was nuked.

Look, Im not trying to bash Russians. But I simply cannot stand by and read these posts of complete and total denial of whats really going on in Chechnya right now. Im not supporter of Khattab and Im glad that Muslum **** is dead and with his 72 ugly bedsheets and I wish all Russians success in destroying the Arabs and their bands of "Shaheed" and the war-criminal Chechens who follow them but I do feel sorry for the Chechens who are innocent like the women and children and young boys who dont go out and fight.

Do you not find it strange that virtually every nation on this earth that has been developed has sent reporters and human rights groups to Chechnya and they all say the exact same thing and come back with the same reports of Russian atrocity??? Does it not make you at least wonder whether it is you that is buying the propaganda bull**** and not the other way around???

Im sure you and your men performed your duty's in a brave and respectfull manner in Chechnya and Im sure the people you call freinds who also foght there did the same as well but I think you must be aware that other Russian soldiers did not, and are not, performing thier duties in a just fashion. Its just too big of a thing to slip through the cracks. Too many women have been found dead after Russian raids. I myself have seen pictures, posted by Russians not Chechens, and on pro-Russian websites, of things such as : A woman who had been tied each leg to a different BMP-2 and then riped in two pieces and the bigger piece (actually most of her body accept the one of her legs) was drug around all day and then left in village as a warning to the village. I have see post capture executions by both Chechens and Russians on eachother. I have seen pictures taken by Russians of rape that were given to human rights groups and published.

You may well remmember the case of the Russian soldier who was tried for rape and torture and murder but was allowed to go free because he was "at the time of the rape and murders crazy" but during that case alot of disgusting information came out that had alot of names of Russians guilty of rape and murder. An investigation was promised by never really happend.......

The simple fact is that it is really really sick to say that Russians are acting like great people in Chechnya. The entire republic has been destroyed, its cities are in ruins, its oil processing plants hardly work, and its people are in a state of despair and poverty. Many thousands are classified dead and many more thousands vanushed. Where are the schools and new homes Russians built. I dont see a single building larger than an outdoor toilet without a bullet hole in it......

Im not blaming you OBRspn or P-omon. The Russian special units from what I know, and you know alot more than me, performed very well in Chechnya and continue to do so. I really wish I could hear things from thier perspectives because I admit that I hear more from others than from Russians and its possible my information could be more fair and I do need more from the Russian perspective. I dont wish to offend but I do wish to provoke a response from you two ) obr spn and P-OMON) about what I have said earlier. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I need a different perspective. Maybe you can explain to me what I have seen and heard.......

[AFG]

Nice post obd

[Sergei]

Hello,

I knew my thread would get a bunch of pro-Red Army kids pissed. Anyways, for the kid questioning whether I am Afghan.

When you were still wetting your paki ****hole with piss and your momma was breast-feeding you, I was already commanding a squad. So watch your mouth before you say something, there are people here who are veterans of many wars.
I said I have legitimate suspicions that you are not an afghan and I was nearly right since you emigrated to Pakistan being 1 years of age which is nothing. You never experienced the afghan-soviet war, only heard of it from your biased goat-herding, turban wearing scumbags of your mullahs.

P.S. BTW, you should change the name of the thread since you have zilch experience as an Afghan fighter. I was drawn to this thread anticipating the story of a real fighter of Allah. All I see is a keyboard "dushman" teenager who has nothing much to do than fight his boredom by putting some dubious material on the forum.

[Chops]

Love it how our little friend OBD sticks his nose into every damned thread where he has no experience of the topic... :roll:

It's actually kinda entertaining.... ;)

rgds

c

[Dmitri]

Love it how our little friend OBD sticks his nose into every damned thread where he has no experience of the topic.Its absolutely wonderfull!! They guy probably goes to kavkaz.net everyday and reads all the anti-war tree-hugging articles he can find about Chechnya. I'm sorry to say this obd, but if you believe in things like "rape-squads" and "clean-up crews" your roof is gone long time ago. Lets imagine: you live in Russia, 18 y.o. and you get called up for duty to serve your country... Where??? The infamous Rape-Squad!! You are expecially selected in this elite team because FSB has a file on you saying that you jack off 24/7. You learn how to rape everyone and everything, and learn some yoga so you don't get a nut too soon and make experience for your victim last longer. And you wear the coveted pink with brown spots beret! :cantbeli:

[Sabre]

I have no doubt in my mind that in afghanistan as in Chechnya, russian soldiers have killed outside of the geneva convention.

I also have no doubt that americans have done so in Vietnam.

We all know that Canadian sodliers have also done this...1993 in somalia.

British troops were authorised in Malaya to cut off the heads of guerrilla's corpses for ID purposes (not that many did).

Australians killed Japanese 'POWs' after battle...in response to the massacres the Japanese had done.


On the balance of it, we all know that the Mujahadeen were no respectors of life. I'm sure that a young conscript who has seen his comrades trussed up and gutted after an attack would want to get his own back. this must have happened.

But killing 600+ civvies in one go? Do you know what is involved in planning a military operation? Do you know the documentaion, the orders process? Do you know how high up this would have to have been sanctioned? What a load of ****!

How much ammunition do you think the average russian soldier carries? Do you think they would go into enemy territory and expend f*ck loads of ammunition on killing civvilians? I think they were far busier killing the mujahadeen.

As in any war where the enemy is irregular, innocents will get killed. Often, this is a ploy of the guerrillas to exercise control over the minds of the population, as they can't control the ground. Releasing propoganda that these casualties were the result of Russian atrocities only helps their cause.

Compare stories of 'atrocities' in remote villages to RAF pilots after a dogfight:

Many pilots will have shot at the same plane as it goes down. Of course, in the debrief each pilot will have reported it as 'their kill'. Hence one enemy plane down becomes 7 or 8. They then go get drunk and tell visiting pilots they shot two down. Total number now 16 planes. If these people then tell their friends and exaggerate just a little, the total number of planes shot down by this squadron could easily become in the hundreds. If someone went around and talked to all these people to gain an impression of the squadrons actions, he would think they had shot all those planes down.

It is the same with reports of 'atrocities'. Some will be true, more will be exaggerated or a different story about the same place, and the majority will be complete fabrications.

Where are the mass graves then? They must be somewhere. The only ones I know of are full of the Mujahadeen and Taliban's victims.

What is this chemical that dissolves human bodies? To dissolve 350 there must have been f*ck loads! Also very convenient that they no longer exist as proof!

Yes, the russians weren't saints in the Afghan war. But armies aren't when they go to fight. Innocent people get killed when they are caught in the crossfire or used as pawns by unscrupulous warlords. (the US bombed a wedding, I'm sure if you ask what is left of that family what they think of the US they wouldn't have many a kind word to say)

To be honest, my only regrett about the russian effort in Afghanistan is that they couldn't get all the mujahadeen f*ckers. If the US hadn't been supporting them, I think they would have; and those bloodthirsty russians would have saved us from 9/11, Nairobi bombings etc etc...

Да здравствует красная армия!

[Javehn]

Now that is a word to you , Sabre , and a big up . Your **** sounds just right .

[Falco]

I've got a question regarding the butterfly mine. If it was not designed to maim children then why is it built out of a fluorescent green plastic? Why weren't they built out of a brownish plantic to mimic the ground?

[anonymous individual]

The simple fact is that it is really really sick to say that Russians are acting like great people in Chechnya. The entire republic has been destroyed, its cities are in ruins, its oil processing plants hardly work, and its people are in a state of despair and poverty. Many thousands are classified dead and many more thousands vanushed. Where are the schools and new homes Russians built. I dont see a single building larger than an outdoor toilet without a bullet hole in it......


It takes time to rebuild a place just been through war. Like Kabul for example, I suspect a high majority of buidlings still leave behind the evidence of war. To compound the situation much further, battles are still raging in Afgan and in the Chechnya areas. Economically speaking, there is no incentive to rebuild the place in a quick pace, when the next time you know it could be targeted and blown up into dirt. Besides, even there is a economy going on in those places, it is going to be very weak. No money in a place equals will not receive much investment or attention from the government. Maybe the Russian government just focus on the human. part So there is no hurry to rebuild a ruined place when temperay settlements can be build in a lesser price and quicker pace.

JMOO

[ibstolidude]

It takes time to rebuild a place just been through war. Like Kabul for example, I suspect a high majority of buidlings still leave behind the evidence of war. JMOO - What buildings?
;)

[ibstolidude]

I've got a question regarding the butterfly mine. If it was not designed to maim then why is it biult out of a fluorescent green plastic?

1. Most mines are designed to produce casualities. What good are they if a little flag pops out with the word "Boo" written on them?

2. They are not only flourescent green. They come in gray/white, sand brown and OD green. I have not seen a Russian made "flourescent green" one, but I am no expert.
And in different varieties to include a self detonating type (after a XXhour period)

[Royal]

I've got a question regarding the butterfly mine. If it was not designed to maim then why is it biult out of a fluorescent green plastic?

The PFM-1 'butterfly mine' is designed to main (as are all anti-personell mines). It is not made out of fluorescent plastic, it is made of tan or OD plastic.

Stoli - I stand corrected. I've never seen them in grey or white. Although thinking about it I have seen them with yellow paint on the wing (for training purposes).

[Royal]

Sorry it's a crappy photo, but it's the best I could find on a quick google search. PFM-1's awaiting destruction in Afghanistan.

http://www.landmines.org.uk/images/MinefieldPhotos/AFG-1419.jpg

Fluorescent green anyone?

[Falco]

My eyes must have played a trick on me about the fluorescent green part.

[UkrainianAmerican]

[quote="PermskiiOMON"]
watch this video
http://download.utro.ru/download//vol2.rm

[\quote]
just saw this video.
Sick. JUST MOTHERf*cking sick. They are not criminals. The poor guy didnt have anything on him worth taking. They are Islamonazis. The onlything that paralleled this video is some nazi footage, as in there they killed people just for the F*CKING sake of killing. In this case because he was a Slav and wasnt a muslim, no F*CK that, he wasnt a satanist, . These people arent muslim or Christian they are satanists who need to be EXTERMINATED like cockaroaches. NO PRISONERS. MVD should arrange an ALLAH apointment for them. THe sooner the better for the civilisation.

[Argyll]

Disturbing video RA......can you do a bit of tranlsating as to what was going on?
From the just of it it looks like the guy was executed for no apparent reason,I take it these were Chechens who carried this out?
Poor Bast*rd :(

[ibstolidude]

It never ceases to amaze me what people will tape.

I didn't even watch this one...unless I saw it elsewhere. I have seen these before. Russian engineer is tied to a chair - his buddy sent for ransom. Doesn't return the dude has his throat SAWED cut is the worng term. Or the tapes of people having a go with an axe.

even a long time ago in the balkans some of the tapes we found were unreal...fortunately they were all turned into to the ICTY as I understand it.

[Argyll]

Am I the only one who thinks that certain topics should be banned from this site,as they serve no other purpose than to get a political point across,and to turn into flame wars? whether it be the Treatment by Russians on Afgani's the treatment of Russian by Chechens,The Islamic fundamentalists treatment on everyone?.........this used to be a great site,but it's getting very aggresive in it's manner,..........agreed everyone has their opinions ....and opinions are like arseholes everyones got one,!

[Roger Rabbit]

Am I the only one who thinks that certain topics should be banned from this site

Yes, the whole atrocity thing everyone seems to be bring up right now is something that should be banned. Its one thing to post a link to a picture showing a body with a gun shot wound to the chest and another to post a video of someone having their throat cut. I came here to try and learn something, which i hope i have, and not to see stuff or hear about stuff that should be on ****** or any of those other sites that should be taken off the internet and their owners punished.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Disturbing video RA......can you do a bit of tranlsating as to what was going on?
From the just of it it looks like the guy was executed for no apparent reason,I take it these were Chechens who carried this out?
Poor Bast*rd :(
I will summarize the video. After the title: bllody territory
We see russian army footage which shows a killed mujahed in fatigues. The russians looks at his passport, and find a tape. Then they show the tape. The tape shows mujaheds in spetsnaz gear, carjacking two cars. The next episode is them questioning an (ethnic) russian civilian. First they ask him if hes recon or a spy. He says its bull. They view his papers. Tell him to take the shoes and socks off. Then they give him a small speech about how hes an infidel whos killing muslims and coming to their holy land. He says it not so. Then resigned to his fate he asks if he can have one last ciggarette before he goes. Then the guy stares at (the shooter??) and in 5 secs hes shot, falling immediately. Then 2 secs later hes shot again, again again and again.

[Salty Dog]

reminds me of the russian soldier killing the chechan by sawing through his throat. i saw it on www.platooncommander.com i will never understand why people will take video footage of things like this.

[Roger Rabbit]

Because there's some sick people out there who want to watch that sort of thing.

There's people who pay for it(see earlier in the thread regarding funding from Saudi Sheiks)

There's people who genuinly believe the world is a better place for them having done that sort of thing and they want everyone to know about it

There's people who want the world to know what sort of stuff is going on so hopefully it can be prevented.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah, but the guy was a freaking civvie. He said he was there to visit his girl. And they didnt find anything on him.

[Russian Texan]

reminds me of the russian soldier killing the chechan by sawing through his throat. i saw it on www.platooncommander.com i will never understand why people will take video footage of things like this.

You are wrong, it is russian soldier (VDV) is being killed by chechens.
There is larger, colored version of it on ******.com

Contrary to all the "human rights organizations" statements and "first hand accounts" there is not a sinle tape that will show russians commiting war crimes.

[obd]

Funny Chops that alot of your posts are just bull****ting about what others have said and contain zero thought at all.......

Also, I think it is pretty clear that I am not claiming that "18 year old Russians were recruited for official rape squad units of the Russian army". What you are doing is cleverly twisting my words and avoiding my accusation at the same time by basically denying the ludicrous notion that thier are , literally, designated Russian rape units like "Raping Unit 2 VDV" and such when in fact I said no such thing at all. These "rape squads" as they are called are loose knit bands of Russian soldiers who often form on an ad-hoc basis when the opportunity arrises to have a little "fun". They are groups within regular army units who, quite clearly, go out to get laid by raping the Chechen women....... Often these "petentials" are spotted during routine house searches. If a pretty one is seen then a note of the houses location is taken for a return trip later in the night for the act to take place. Of course this is not done officially and of course these soldiers are sneaking off but often Soviet officers are aware of it and do noting to stop it......Many have given testimony of this with the excuse that the soldiers "were stressed and needed a release". Whats amazing is that neither the officers or the men are prosecuted most often unless in an extreme case such as the soldier who "went temp. crazy and killed lots of people". Even he was let free because he was "crazy at the time (and thus not accoutable) but perfectly normal now (so safe to release)". This really is sickening to me.......

To say that I have been living in a dream world for believign that rapes and murders were committed by Russian soldiers on a wide scale is akin to saying that anyone who says rape is a porblem in America is full of bull**** and rape never happens in American or that AIDS is not a problem in Africa its all just western lies rooted in racism!!!! It really is quite laughable and I mean no disrespect to you veterans who fought with honor over there......this doesnt concern you specifically of course but I do mean and hope to bother those who did (not to say there are actually any on this forum at all but if there are than I hope this makes them consider what they have done)

Second, I do visit Kavkaz because its absolutely hilarious to laugh at thier complete and total lies and bull****. In fact, thier denial of Chechen atrocity is worse even than your denial of Russian war crimes. One thing it has made me see clearly is that both Russians and Chechens have managed to convince themselves that the other side is so evil, so inhuman, so disgusting, and so deserving of complete annihilation, that they both are more than ready to believe the most violent and horrible stories about the other side while at the same time refusing to believe that thier own side has done anything wrong at all. I think its part of the dehuminaztion of war..It happend all the time, its just particulary bad in Chechnya.

Honestly fellas, Im forced to laugh at both you and the Chechens. When one side makes a rediculous claim and makes me laugh, the other side goes and makes an even more laughable claim. Its almost like a Chechen-Russian "WAR OF BULL****" but I say the Chechens are winning at the moment. Thier crap on KAVKAZ makes me laugh so hard I actually started going there to relieve stress in my day. Its better than "Fraiser, Seinfeld, The Simpsons, all put together.

Also, there is no need to get angry at me for what I say. Its not like what Im saying isnt true. Whats funny is that I would expect to get the same exact reaction of sheer denial if I said anything to a Chechen about thier own crimes and terror tactics. Whats not funny is that I wasnt expecting this reaction from you Russians on this forum. I was hoping for recomendations of websites I can go to with a Russian perspective or books I can read from a Russian perspective ot balance out what I have read and seen...... Instead I get utter denial and avoiding of the argument. In a way it just reinforces my opinion that the war is hopeless and a complete quagmire for all sides. There is so much hatred and mistrust now that the life of a Chechen or Russian simply has no meaning for the other side anymore. I have read many comments on this forum from Russians even in posts not related to the topic on wiping out the Chechens, which is genocide in my book...... Too bad there are no Chechens here......nevrmind then there would be Chechen Russian flame wars that owuld make all before them seem like nothing..... (joking)

[obd]

By the way, Russian Texan is correct: That video is a Chechen made video of the murder of a captured Russian soldier. One thing is interesting though. Before the hatred got so out of hand that both sides started killing eachothers prisoners, the Chechens would often only kill officers but would release unharmed the conscripts. This is expecially true of the first Chechen war although much much rarer in the second war as the brutality and inhumanity got much worse.

But you are wrong Russian-Texan when you say no video exists of Russians "in the act" of war crimes. There is a video of I seen which very clearly shows Russian soldiers tying a woman they captured who they thought had been sniping at them earlier and tying her legs to two BMP-2 APC's and then ripping her apart and dragging the pieces around. This video was hosted for a time on a pro-Russian site with the description ssaying something liek this :"Here is video to show how Russians deal with Chechen bandit bastards who are captured"

There was also video that Russian forces had captured from Chechens showing them trying to make a video of a bomb ambush but getting ambushed by unknown Russian forces themselves. The two Chechens with the camera are trapped in a ditch by Russian fire and then killed. Poetic justice if you ask me as they were trying to make a Chechen propaganda video but ended up being a Russian videp instead hehehehe.

Anyway, there is also PLENTY of video of the aftermath of Russian operations. There is PLENTY of taped testimony from Chechens and from RUSSIANS living in Chechnya who were victimized by unruly Russian soldiers in the night. Acts inluded robbery and looting, rape, murder, beatings, etc....Let me repeat: RUSSIAN women testified to this as well and they are very patriotic but were extremely dismayed and enraged by behavior of troops they saw as saviors. Many were worried about Chechens killing them for being Russian and sought out help and welcomed Russian troops into thier homes only to be raped and robben in some cases.

I also want to mention the case of A Russian army unit who was assigned to clear a village. According to the villagers, these Russian troops warned them that another Russian group was going to sweep the village later but that the next sweep would be very different fomr the first. In the nigth sweep they would kill all who they found alive in the town.... The village had no men of fighting age as they were off fighting the Russians already in other areas (big surprise) but the villagers chose to listen to Russian group and leave. Some stayed behind. Sure enough the next day they return to find houses robbed and looted and those who stayed all dead.............. In this case no rape or torture was reported. All dead found were either shot to death or killed by grenades on the spot very quickly which seems to suggest the men came there with clear purpose and goal of being efficient and not wasting time with "games". This case was reported because the leader of the Russian unit was sought out by the villagers to thank him later on for his humanity that saved thier lives and this "reunion" was filmed........

[Kingpin]

What the f*** is " Soviet soldiers would rape a pregnant woman, and take her baby out?" What were the officers doing? Ignoring this crime?
Do you even know how much discipline was around the Soviet Army.
You try just selling ammo to the local hunters, you would be sent to Moscow, get smaked and sent to a prision.


Don't want to nitpick, but when your soldiers where living Poland, they where selling everything the've got: ammo, wepons, egupipment. I with my friend,we were litle boys then, cocked-off in fire few pistol rounds he've got from living Russians :)...I'm sure that soldiers in A-stan weren't more disciplined than those in Poland.....

About weaponry - yes. Because they was at war. While Poland was peaceful place. Actually there was cases of different criminal acts in Afganistan also but in much smaller amounts and not about weapons selling.

[Herrmannek]

What the f*** is " Soviet soldiers would rape a pregnant woman, and take her baby out?" What were the officers doing? Ignoring this crime?
Do you even know how much discipline was around the Soviet Army.
You try just selling ammo to the local hunters, you would be sent to Moscow, get smaked and sent to a prision.


Don't want to nitpick, but when your soldiers where living Poland, they where selling everything the've got: ammo, wepons, egupipment. I with my friend,we were litle boys then, cocked-off in fire few pistol rounds he've got from living Russians :)...I'm sure that soldiers in A-stan weren't more disciplined than those in Poland.....

About weaponry - yes. Because they was at war. While Poland was peaceful place. Actually there was cases of different criminal acts in Afganistan also but in much smaller amounts and not about weapons selling.

I was refering more to sentence about disscipline ;). Can't imagine that US soldiers moving their basses from Germany to Poland would sell their equipment on their own to weapon thirsty Germans :). Russian did so the disscipline wasn't so great as you say....

[Kingpin]

What the f*** is " Soviet soldiers would rape a pregnant woman, and take her baby out?" What were the officers doing? Ignoring this crime?
Do you even know how much discipline was around the Soviet Army.
You try just selling ammo to the local hunters, you would be sent to Moscow, get smaked and sent to a prision.


Don't want to nitpick, but when your soldiers where living Poland, they where selling everything the've got: ammo, wepons, egupipment. I with my friend,we were litle boys then, cocked-off in fire few pistol rounds he've got from living Russians :)...I'm sure that soldiers in A-stan weren't more disciplined than those in Poland.....

About weaponry - yes. Because they was at war. While Poland was peaceful place. Actually there was cases of different criminal acts in Afganistan also but in much smaller amounts and not about weapons selling.

I was refering more to sentence about disscipline ;). Can't imagine that US soldiers moving their basses from Germany to Poland would sell their equipment on their own to weapon thirsty Germans :). Russian did so the disscipline wasn't so great as you say....

Morale was very low in many units in last years of Soviet Union. Can't imagine similar things in 60's for example. And i suppose almost everything bad and illegal done by Soviet soldiers in these years were due to low morale.

[perdurabo]

Morale was very low in many units in last years of Soviet Union. Can't imagine similar things in 60's for example. And i suppose almost everything bad and illegal done by Soviet soldiers in these years were due to low morale.
there is a report (and a trial now) about stilling and selling explosives from contact armour of tanks that are going to/are in chechenya few soldiers where cached ...

[Russian Texan]

But you are wrong Russian-Texan when you say no video exists of Russians "in the act" of war crimes.

Anyway, there is also PLENTY of video of the aftermath of Russian operations.

I have never seen a single one, post a link otherwise it falls into category of a "tenth hand account".

[Kingpin]

Morale was very low in many units in last years of Soviet Union. Can't imagine similar things in 60's for example. And i suppose almost everything bad and illegal done by Soviet soldiers in these years were due to low morale.
there is a report (and a trial now) about stilling and selling explosives from contact armour of tanks that are going to/are in chechenya few soldiers where cached ...

Now stealing continuing and there whould be spend a lot of efforts to stop this.

[GazB]

Sorry it's a crappy photo, but it's the best I could find on a quick google search. PFM-1's awaiting destruction in Afghanistan.

Geez Royal... who was the idiot that collected those and put them in a hole? I was under the impression that the fuse was not defusable and they should be blown up in place... or you wait for a hail storm. I had even heard of an afghan being killed when a rock he threw to set off some PFMs he had spotted was blown back at him and went straight through his forehead... They were so volitile and could be set of at a touch or multiple touches they should not have been moved.


Am I the only one who thinks that certain topics should be banned from this site,as they serve no other purpose than to get a political point across,

Well I have yet to see a Russian hack saw off the head of a chechen on video. For anyone who thinks the Chechens are innocent victims perhaps seeing a few of those... disgusting vids... might do them some good.

As long as there is a suitable description with the link to warn what the vid or photo is about I think it is OK. Of course that doesn't mean I like them, and I haven't and probably won't look at the link you are referring to or any like it here. If I was interested I could go to various sites for that sort of rubbish.

""in the act" of war crimes. There is a video of I seen which very clearly shows Russian soldiers tying a woman they captured who they thought had been sniping at them earlier and tying her legs to two BMP-2 APC's and then ripping her apart and dragging the pieces around."

I think that sounds familiar... and I am pretty sure that she was not Chechen. Being a Merc there are no POW protections or rules of conduct therefore what they did was not a crime. Much the same as prisoners at guantanimo don't get any rights.


Many were worried about Chechens killing them for being Russian and sought out help and welcomed Russian troops into thier homes only to be raped and robben in some cases.

And how often are they actually Russian soldiers and not Chechens dressed up?


This case was reported because the leader of the Russian unit was sought out by the villagers to thank him later on for his humanity that saved thier lives and this "reunion" was filmed........

Obviously innocent villagers then. And the fact that all the young men and many young women are missing from a village tells you what about that village?


I was refering more to sentence about disscipline . Can't imagine that US soldiers moving their basses from Germany to Poland would sell their equipment on their own to weapon thirsty Germans . Russian did so the disscipline wasn't so great as you say....


Hahaha... and if that American soldier hadn't been paid in 6 months how disciplined would they be? Most of that sort of thing is restricted to a few that are actually in a position to cover their criminality. I have read a few articles about such things in the US. I mean how hard is it to go out on exercise and blow up 2kg of HE instead of the 6kg you were given? Weapons get lost or damaged beyond repair all the time on exercise and ammo doesn't always have to go through a barrel.

[ibstolidude]

I mean how hard is it to go out on exercise and blow up 2kg of HE instead of the 6kg you were given? Weapons get lost or damaged beyond repair all the time on exercise and ammo doesn't always have to go through a barrel. -

BEOWULF stands nervously <faint whistling in the background>
& avoids looking toward his garage
:oops:

[Royal]

I mean how hard is it to go out on exercise and blow up 2kg of HE instead of the 6kg you were given? Weapons get lost or damaged beyond repair all the time on exercise and ammo doesn't always have to go through a barrel. -

BEOWULF stands nervously <faint whistling in the background>
& avoids looking toward his garage
:oops:

rofl rofl rofl

[Herrmannek]

I was refering more to sentence about disscipline . Can't imagine that US soldiers moving their basses from Germany to Poland would sell their equipment on their own to weapon thirsty Germans . Russian did so the disscipline wasn't so great as you say....


Hahaha... and if that American soldier hadn't been paid in 6 months how disciplined would they be? Most of that sort of thing is restricted to a few that are actually in a position to cover their criminality. I have read a few articles about such things in the US. I mean how hard is it to go out on exercise and blow up 2kg of HE instead of the 6kg you were given? Weapons get lost or damaged beyond repair all the time on exercise and ammo doesn't always have to go through a barrel.

My point is that they sold all 6 killos :). Yes such things happen in any army, but soldiers try to hide with this kind of activity, and if case see daylight they are court martialed or fined...BTW you "proved" that if soldier realy want to sell army stuff, he has lots possibilitys of doing that...:)

[Deminer from Sarajevo]

The BLU-43/B is a scatterable blast antipersonnel mine produced by the United States and delivered by the Air Force. This mine was used in the Vietnam War and has since been exploited and copied by the former Soviet Union. The mine is nicknamed the DRAGONTOOTH. The system uses a liquid explosive and a hydrostatic fuze. The Russian version is the PFM-1 and PFM-1S (Butterfly mines).

[Deminer from Sarajevo]

Those butterfly bombs sounds like small antipersonnel mines dropped from helicopters. They were shaped to always land upright and when ya step on em... POP. No more foot.

Also the Russian RPG Soldier would have to dismount from his vehicle to fire the RPG. He'd have to stop the whole convoy so he could blow up a little girl. Ever tried firing an RPG-7 inside a vehicle? Better have good life insurance.

Umm......the weapon he used was something my uncle didn't go into detail with...but if I remember correctly it was a gernade...I was assuming it was an RPG....
Oh...and there was incidents where RPG's were fired from vehicles.....some Mujahideen soldiers were so daring they fired it while mounted on a horse...
BLU-43/B
The BLU-43/B is a scatterable blast antipersonnel mine produced by the United States and delivered by the Air Force. This mine was used in the Vietnam War and has since been exploited and copied by the former Soviet Union. The mine is nicknamed the DRAGONTOOTH. The system uses a liquid explosive and a hydrostatic fuze. The Russian version is the PFM-1 and PFM-1S (Butterfly mines).

[lion of afghanistan]

hey guys...

I am an afghan....and i would just like to say that if any of u doubt all that rebel7 have said...then u just have to go to afghanistan in any of its cities and villages, knock on the door of any house, SIT and LISTEN!

Trust me....it will take u days to hear all of the atrocities that soviets committed in afghanistan (for that specific family). Ask ur selves....how come 2 million people got killed?

[Javehn]

Are you born and raised in Afgan , or you feeding with rumours ? I don't want to disrespect you , but from what i read here , the things that said by Rebel7 are highly exadurated , at list to me .

[16 OBr SpN]

hey guys...

I am an afghan....and i would just like to say that if any of u doubt all that rebel7 have said...then u just have to go to afghanistan in any of its cities and villages, knock on the door of any house, SIT and LISTEN!

Trust me....it will take u days to hear all of the atrocities that soviets committed in afghanistan (for that specific family). Ask ur selves....how come 2 million people got killed?

Again, I'm not saying there were no abuses! There are abuses in every military conflict!

But stuff which was stated by Rebel7, is just simple BULL****, which was made up to impress the members of the forum. I asked him simple questions, and he starts changing the subject, then promising to provide proof, because he needed to clarify the stories with his uncle, aunt, or whoever... :lol:
Considering the fact that he left Afghanistan when he was a little kid, his "insight" is supposed to be very truthful isn't it? :roll:
I'm still waiting, and hoping to get the answers. Especially about that magical acid which decomposed the bodies of hundreds of people! :lol:

Did he think that people on this forum are that stupid to believe his bull**** tales?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[usa320]

My feelings on the war between afghanistan and soviets are this- aboslutely no feelings.

It was a messy situation all around...

Both sides had their fair share of shady doings.

[Russian Texan]

It was a messy situation all around...

Both sides had their fair share of shady doings.

And you base this statement on....?

[786mine]

Hey Rebel,

My father fought in Afghanistan. My very good friend was shot down in Afghanistan twice and lived to tell us his storries.

My Older Brother in law, died in Jalalabad at the end of the war.

By reading your "default" traditional "Russians are from hell, and kill kill kill kill f*** kill everyone.

If I would get paid to argue with every f*** like you, and get paid just a ruble. I would have anough money to buy a Patriot missle and send it as a present to your turban wearing friends.

Good thing I wouldn't have to worry about my missle being hijacked, and smashed in to some office building. I mean you goateaters are so brave, innocent and it throws me into tears when I think about Soviet Soldiers killing thousands of your children.

During those days there were 2 big kids on the block. Russia and Usa. As I remember that our armies were filled with 99.95 of civilized, educated people.

What the f*** is " Soviet soldiers would rape a pregnant woman, and take her baby out?" What were the officers doing? Ignoring this crime?
Do you even know how much discipline was around the Soviet Army.
You try just selling ammo to the local hunters, you would be sent to Moscow, get smaked and sent to a prision.

Raping pregnant women and taking out her baby... What the f***.....
This is something you sick dogs would do to your females. If Allah finds out that your wife was raped, and has a baby of some Pakistani in her - that would be the end.

She would loose her head, or be stoned, and I am sure the baby would be taken out with the most pain. Don't tell me that its not truth you f***.
Only in your preverted religion you cover female's faces, and treat them like slaves. And you have the balls to blame Soviet soldiers for killing you dirty goats.

It's like the Soviet Army came to afghanistan for having some satanic style fun. They all wear black long capes, and only did their sacrifices during the night. They drew a giant star in the circle on the ground, and began their bloody rituals.

Rebel, did you learn your good English in Afghanistan? Or you are some kid that just finished reading "Stalin" My jihad etc????

American intellegence should know the facts. I mean they were helping your people out during this time. If the Soviets really did what you f*** say, do you know how much the US would benefit from this? Do you even know the f*** logic, you sick bastard?

Everything you say is BULL****, pure muslim propaganda BULL****.
Soviets were ataked from everywhere in Afghanistan, and our soldiers fought hard.

Airborne, Marines, KGB, GRU all sent your f*** mudjaheds to your f*** ALlah.
We faced some hard ass warriors, and I doubt you were part of them. You probably sat somewhere in Ruha, and **** your pants when our jets flew by your village.

Your mudjaheds were brave I agree. They did know how to fight, they have been doing it for centuries. So despite the constant attacks on our soldiers, we just f*** had all the time in our world to go and slaughter your people.

What was the reason? Your civilians were no threat to us. I remember the storries of starving afghans, they didn't know how to read, or put a sentance together. I remember our guys trying to feed them, and to wipe them out in the ways you describe, was just in-humane.

Sorry assholes, it seems to me that your people did more preverted **** like that. ONly in your country you would use a soccer stadium to execute your people. Or was it also Soviets?

I've seen the videos of mudjaheds having beef between your sick tribes.
I don't want to go into more argument about that war, because I wasnt fighting in it. I was too young.

I do remember seeing zinc caskets of my older friends driving through our street, and their mothers chasing the Green Ural truck bashing their heads on the street concrete.

You come to think, all of the friends I know who died in Afghanistan had close casket bodies. Because your sick f*** thought it was Allah's will to cut their body parts, to slit their throats, take their eyes out, to cut their ****s off, because a lot of soldiers were not circimzied.

If you really fought against our guys than you should know "what is a red jacket", What is a "Puppet", "Red Tullip" ?????

Tell us

You f*** skined our soldiers in those ways. Our VDV brothers would be driving on the road, and would find their friends without hands, legs, and other parts. But still alive.

You animals would leave them alive on purpoce. Or what about cutin a line bellow a chin of our POWs, and then pulling the skin over his head. The Red Tullip I'm talking about.

How could we just simply enter your villages, and execute everyone? Do you sick f*** know that a good chunk of the Soviet Army were citizens from all over the Union. Tadjik, Kazahi, Uzbeki, Turkmenistani, Tatari, Ukrainzi, Kavkazi, Belorusi, Latishi,

There were thousands of muslim soldiers in the SOviet army. So you gonna tell me they stood there looking at some Slav soldier raping a pregnant women and taking her baby out?
Give me a f*** break.

The Soviet comanding staff would not let this **** go on. What kind of reputation would we show to the world? We were there to support the government that wanted to teach you
how to eat with a fork
read
watch tv
go to school
play chess
soccer
treat your females with respect

Am I wrong? or did we just woke up one morning and thought it would be a cool idea to go invade some ****hole. I mean we had tanks, big planes, best assualt weapons, we just didn't know who to go and rape. We have a shortage with women in Soviet Union. Such a big shortage that we had to go and find more, thousand miles away.

The problem was is , where would we go to f*** somebody, and then kill them. So they started throwing darts at the map, and the first dark landed on your ****hole called Afghanistan.

So we went there, and right when we enetered the country the rape Fiesta began. And after that we would burn down your villages. What is there to f*** burn ? You don't even have trees growing in Afghanistan. All your houses are made out of un proccesed rock. I mean you animals live in caves. Same caves where you hoe ben laden is hiding now.

Fine, after 10 years of fighting, and trying to educate your people - we left.
What happened in Afghanistan next? Flowers started growing, libraries opened up, theaters, museums, universities, parks. Hell yeah, probably even musical halls, since the invading demons have left.

NO, you f*** contiunued on your preferabale way of living. Majority of your people were f*** by your own taliban. And then your assholes found a way to go f*** with us.

How many of your mudjaheds found their ways into Tadjikistan? Oh wait, say CHECHNYA?

This wasn't your business, and war. Why did you f*** come to Chechnya? And I must say in big numbers. I've seen the protocols from MVD units, describing the scene of an aftermath.

Found citizen X, beard, olive skin, Not-Chechen native. Later, on we find that he came from afghanistan. That **** kept on going.

And later your f*** attacked USA. Now since you really know you are f***, its good to see that you chose the right side. Otherwise your would be another stinky muslim fanatic.
Oh who knows, maybe you are....
you all f*** have 2 faces.

good post, I am glad someone else agrees with me that Rebel 7 talks **** and his posts are right out flamatory. I am so sick and tired of him blaming Pakistan, USA and Russia for their sh*t a** problems. Rebel 7, deal with your problem like man. Fix your problems nad quit blaming it on others like a 2 year old in order to get attention.

[786mine]

Hello,

I knew my thread would get a bunch of pro-Red Army kids pissed. Anyways, for the kid questioning whether I am Afghan.

When you were still wetting your paki ****hole with piss and your momma was breast-feeding you, I was already commanding a squad. So watch your mouth before you say something, there are people here who are veterans of many wars.
I said I have legitimate suspicions that you are not an afghan and I was nearly right since you emigrated to Pakistan being 1 years of age which is nothing. You never experienced the afghan-soviet war, only heard of it from your biased goat-herding, turban wearing scumbags of your mullahs.

P.S. BTW, you should change the name of the thread since you have zilch experience as an Afghan fighter. I was drawn to this thread anticipating the story of a real fighter of Allah. All I see is a keyboard "dushman" teenager who has nothing much to do than fight his boredom by putting some dubious material on the forum.

correction, its afghani not paki. ;)

[Deminer from Sarajevo]

I have not any doudt in killing more number of civils in Afganistan during 1979-89.But what about the same number civils who is killed in civil war in Afganistanas after this war as before..Sovjet Army was not conquest Army and they had very stupied communist ideology about help to Afgan people.As you know about 300-400 000 were in afgan security and goverment forces.What about them.Many number of them was killed together with their families.What was happened after?Big civil war without respect any,not only human right,but and islam law.This war was begun in 1974 year modzahedins of Hekmatiar and other company.Why these people killed member of King's goverment and their security forces,but and their families.What they expected?As I know in accordance with islamic law for who breaking state's order must be punish by dead.Is this Kingdom Afganistan was islamic or now.I think yes.Who is began war may be expect dead for himself.Sovjet Army was sent by their goverment not for killing evribody.Proof of that conclussion is Sovjet Middle Asia where the same people like in Afganistan(uzbeks,tadjik,turkmens)were living better then in Afganistan.Of course for now their level is more low because friends of mr.Rebel let in this region stupied goverment in Moscow.But evry country must protect its itresting in world in according with its ability.For afgan's mudjahedins the entrance of Sovjet Army was is only formal reason for jihad,and absolutely same tactic they are using in Afganistan and in Iraq.For sorry islamic society is very barbarian,and very easy governed by lay,cruelty,depravity and avidly.This biggest probleme of islamic society inside this society.What about sacrifises so islamic people one another ones has killed and abused as in very often wars,as in "ordinary" life in more times then any conquetors.In really evry foriegn(for islamic society) conquestor is liberator of people from allways corrupt and terror goverment.The another question does need somebody risk own lifi for liberate people who can understand only language of power.

[CRAZY MERC]

Best smack I've ever read. Keep it coming.

[Fargin]

Best smack I've ever read. Keep it coming.

x2

[Moledet]

Nice stories, I hope that everything will work out for you and your country will join the western world.

P.S. What do you think about peace with Israel? Or maybe just a "do not hate us like other muslim countries" agreement?