Israel to Syria: Get out of Lebanon [Archive]

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SeanAshi

02-01-2004, 06:10 PM

By TOVAH LAZAROFF

Israeli leaders called Sunday for Syria to get out of Lebanon and promised to retaliate against Hamas and Hizbullah should either group make good on their threat to kidnap more IDF soldiers.

In the last few days, both Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder and spiritual leader of Hamas, and Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah have threatened to abduct more soldiers to trade for prisoners.

During the weekly cabinet meeting, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said Yassin's comments only justify Israel's targeting of Hamas leaders. He also warned he would hit back hard at Hizbullah if it kidnaps more soldiers.
"Israel's reaction will be very harsh, all the options are open to it," he said.

Syria was also rebuked at the meeting, with Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom calling for it to withdraw from Lebanon. He said his ministry is embarking on a public relations campaign to end the occupation of that country. Syria entered Lebanon in 1976 to intervene in the Lebanese civil war. It describes its presence as a "peacekeeping role."

"The time has come to free Lebanon and return it to the Lebanese," Shalom said.
Since September 17, 1982, Syria has been in violation of UN Security Council Resolution 520, demanding that "all non-Lebanese forces" leave Lebanon.

Syria has about 20,000 troops stationed there and is against allowing the Lebanese Army to deploy to the southern border, preferring instead to allow Hizbullah, which it supplies with arms, to control the area.

"Syria is an occupying power in Lebanon, and Syria devours Lebanon's resources. The time has come for the nations of the world to stop turning a blind eye to this and start dealing with this problem," Shalom said.

He said he would raise the issue with visiting heads of state, adding that Israel's diplomatic representatives abroad have been instructed to discuss the issue in their host countries.

The US has already moved on the issue. In December, President George W. Bush signed into law the Syria Accountability and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration Act, which could lead to the imposition of fresh sanctions on Damascus unless the administration can certify changes in Syrian behavior.

The act directs the president to ban US sales of weaponry and dual-use items – items that can be used for civilian or military purpose – unless Syria abandons its support for terrorism, removes its troops from Lebanon, stops the flow of terrorists into Iraq, and abandons its pursuit of non-conventional weapons.

The act also calls on the president to impose two or more sanctions from a list including an export ban; ban on US businesses operating in Syria; restrictions on Syrian diplomats in the US; and exclusion of Syrian-owned aircraft from US airspace.

OC Intelligence Maj.-Gen Aharon Ze'evi (Farkash) told the cabinet of Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei's expected appearance this week before the Political Committee of the Palestinian Legislative Council. The council summoned Qurei to explain why he has failed to implement reforms in the PA security and financial establishments.

Qurei is in trouble for failing to wrest control from PA Chairman Yasser Arafat. The PLC is upset that Qurei has allowed Arafat to exploit the anarchy in the PA to his advantage, Ze'evi said, adding that it is the continuation of this anarchy that he will have to explain.

Qurei is under pressure from all directions, including from Egypt, which is equally upset that he has failed to act and is not meeting with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
There is a possibility that he could be thrown out for failing to gain control of the situation, Ze'evi said.

Arafat has only recently understood that such anarchy is harming Fatah and strengthening Hamas, and it is or this reason that uniformed PA policeman were seen this week, he said.
He said that Qurei's refusal to stop violence against Israel, as well as the increased involvement of Hizbullah and Iran in terrorist activity, has led to the continuation of attacks.

Jerusalem Post

usa320

02-01-2004, 06:51 PM

Argyll

02-01-2004, 07:10 PM

Yeah right?

You really want to see an escalation of war in the ME?
ALL sides need to give concessions and start talking again,start acting like adults instead of petulant kids!

UkrainianAmerican

02-01-2004, 07:17 PM

Yeah right?

You really want to see an escalation of war in the ME?
ALL sides need to give concessions and start talking again,start acting like adults instead of petulant kids!
Thats not what happened when Argentina wanted the Falklands :lol:
(no offense to Brits)

SeanAshi

02-01-2004, 07:50 PM

Why the hell cant Israel just kick there ass?
They need to remove Hezbollah from the southern borders, who would Syria have to push around if they didn't have Lebanon?

You really want to see an escalation of war in the ME?

Somthing needs to be done, Hamas and Hezbollah are the ones making it worse, saying their going to abduct soldiers.

Argyll

02-01-2004, 07:52 PM

Considering the Falklands was British Sovereignity I fail to see your point?
The Falkland Islanders DID NOT want anything to do with the Argentines,they, infact Invaded the whaling station in South Georgia,under the rouse that they were engineers or some other BS,then they invaded the FI themselves,the UK government tried through Diplomacy to get them to leave,which ironically was another REGIME,at that time,even the US State dept tried to negotiate,but to no avail,and the end result was they decided to remove them by Force,which is what they did!......how that equates to the Israeli's telling the Syrians to leave Lebannon is beyond me,If the Lebanees people and Government wants them to leave also then that is a different matter,if however if they're happy with a Syrian Presence,then who are the Israeli's to tell them to leave,considering they will not give up what they captured during the Arab Israeli wars........this is where concessions have to be drawn up!

obd

02-02-2004, 03:06 AM

Yes Argyll and is not, or was not, Lebenon also a sovereign nation in and of itself???? Excuse me but they have every right, and the community of nations has every right, to use force to get Syria out of Lebenon. If you think Syria is going to exit Lebenon through negotiations then you have been smoking something!! Dont you think negotiations have been tried and tried and tried. I mean, they have been occupying Lebenon and raping it of its resources and using it as a terrorist breeding ground for almost the last two decades Argyll!!!!!! What in the hell do you think "talks" are going to do?? Oh yeah, I forgot my new caveot to everything I say from now on: Im not trying to be offensive or start a flame war (notice I didnt call you any names, insult your mother, or anything of that nature).

Sanctions have already been tried. What do you think we should do then Argyll?? Maybe we can just impose more sanctions and start the time honored cycle of : We impose sanctions, government simply keeps functioning "as is" and suffering is translated to the people who starve to death thus creating international indignation at thier suffering and forcing allowing said sanctioned government to blame all problems on "evil imperialist sanctions" and thereby giving them even more power to do whatever the hell they want and buy whatever the hell they want at the expense of thier own people". I think sanctions have proven a waste in the last several decades. They bring too much suffering to the innocent and take too damn long to work. Look at Iraq. It is said, and I believe it, that 1 million Iraqi's died because Saddam took most of money just to keep his military barely functioning (not to mention rebuilding his ivory, gold and diamond palaces designed ever so enthusiastically by the Germans and French (bastards) (**** sorry I started my name calling again).........If we had gone to war and thier had been "war in the middle east" as you put it, much sooner, I doubt millions of Iraqi's would have died in the process of taking down Saddam. On the contrary I think more US troops would have died due to the more powerful Iraqi military but the reusults for Iraq innocent would have been far better IMO.......

UoUo

02-02-2004, 05:53 AM

Argly..and what do we see now? every week about 10 israelis get killed...about 1000 killed in the last 3 years...more then the 67 war...more then the lebanon war...something as to be done. i hope the US will **** those ass holes.

Argyll

02-02-2004, 07:02 AM

Tane Angle

02-02-2004, 09:39 AM

Argyll, there's a difference between Americans and the USA as a nation supporting the IRA. There's a difference between the Syrian government and Syrian individuals supporting terrorist groups. Syria supports them as a government, while some Americans support the IRA as individuals. Having said that, I think you're rigth that it's up the Lebanese to go up to the UN and say "How about a hand here?" It's not Israel's-or the US's-call, I'm sorry.

By the way, going to war in Lebanon is something I would recommend only very grudgingly. It's a tough spot to fight in. There terrain is rugged, the snow-capped mountains and the scorching deserts equally arduous and unforgiving terrain. The targeted terror groups have bbeen living and fighting in the cities and villages for over twenty years now; they know their yard very well. And while the US and some groups in Lebanon haven't always seen eye to eye on some issues, I respect their intelligence and ability to hit their enemies hard, and in a manner that prevents their target from defending itself or responding. Whether or not people agree with their tactics, they know how to fight.

One more thought, if I may: terror groups based in Lebanon have not in recent years used tactics such as massive car bombings, as they used in 1980s against Western targets. I'm not entirely sure why they haven't, and part of it might be successful anti/counterterrorism efforts, but I have a feeling that it's also for political reasons. I worry that if Israel goes back in there, such masive attacks will resume. I don't want a lot of innocent civilians, or anyone, to die-and that goes for all sides of the fence. I don't want a bunch of innocent refugees to get killed in a crossfire or by air support either. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

IDFM203

02-02-2004, 09:52 AM

Like I said and get this into your thick skulls.........IF THE LEBANESE WANT THE SYRIANS OUT then it is up to them,not Israel,or the US to state that,so far I have not heard calls from the Lebanese for this to happen,if the Lebs are happy for the Syrians to be there then live with it!! wow :roll: …………….stepping aside Israel's demands or legitimacy of its demands for a moment, your statement here (and you repeated it before) is quite ridicules considering the reality.

No offense, but you sound like typical naive foreign westerner who simply didn’t hear anything or see anything so everything much be ok :roll:

Come on now………

In Lebanon you have a lots of people that want Syria out and are NOT happy with Syria’s OCUPATION of Lebanon, just they keep quite out of fear of what will happen to them if they speak out. Their silence in no way conveys their approval of Syria’s presence there.

Will Israel give the land it grabbed from Syria and Jordan?You cannot expect that to happen,so why are they not being "forced" to do so?
grabbed?? :roll: NO, more like it attained the land in all out defensive wars…..it wasn’t like Israel sat there and then decided it wanted more land so it went ahead and grabbed it.

As for Jordan, hell yeah Israel would love to give back the land to Jordan, but guess what, they don’t want it back!!

As for Syria, it is simply illogical for Israel to give up that high strategic land to Syria, that still wants to see Israel destroyed

(there is a lot more to all this but I tired to keep it simple so as to avoid a whole other long discussion).

As for Israel’s call to Syria to leave Lebanon, well perhaps its not for Israel to do, however it is for Israel to demand that Syria stop supporting terrorism against Israelis from Lebanon and it is for Israel to threaten Syria that it will go after those terrorists if this continues when it is Syria that actively helps and harbors terrorists against Israel.

Shalom :D

Argyll

02-02-2004, 10:20 AM

You know I've come to realise that when the Israeli's get their teeth into something there's no changing their views at all,hell yes I'm just a naive foreign Westerner who only hears a one sided argument from the Israeli's all the time!!!......you are never wrong or in the wrong are you?

What is riduculus about the statement re the Lebanese wanting the Syrian's out rather than the Israeli's wanting them out?It maybe that the demands from the Lebanese are being said in the Lebanon,but these demands do not seem to be reported on the broadshhets here,or on the News stations here.......for sure I'm naive I have never considered myself an expert on ME Politics,for which I leave that to these said Politicians,not people who offer their sole opinions without having the respect of others,who simply do not want to hear any other opinions other than their own one sided views!!

Ok how about this .......In Iraq there are l;ots of people who want the US out,and are not happy with the US occupation,tyhey just keep silent of their fear of what will happen to them if they speak out,their silence no way approves of the US presence there!

Attained.......ha ha ha a posh word for grabbed I like it,tell me how you can say that it was attained through defensive wars,you do not defend what wasn't yours!!.....nice try!! Are you or are you not in possesion of Syrian land.....and no BS about strategic vantages!!If that Land belongs to Syria ,then you did not defend it,you conquered it therefore did not attain it through defensive war!!

I do agree that the Syrians must stop their support of terrorism,however is it not upto the Lebanese to make sure such attacks on Israel are conducted from their land?....................now call me cynical but who is to say that if Syria were to withdraw from Lebanon ,that the Israeli's will not invade and use it as a stepping stone into Syria?

I like most people here want to see peace in that region,but the hard liners from both parties are whats causing the problems!

Tane I agree with what you said about the support of terrorists,but it's the same the world over,not everyone in that country supports terrorism,so to label a country as such is wrong,like most countries too,not everyone shares the same beliefs as their respctive Governments,genaralising a population is wrong,and that is what causes high rates of civilian casualties,I guess it was different for countries with Marxism and Communism,where they all shared the same beliefs?

UkrainianAmerican

02-02-2004, 10:30 AM

Argyll i think u are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
"Palestine" is a sovereign territory of Israel.
WTF is your point (if theres one)?

Argyll

02-02-2004, 10:44 AM

em is this not about Syria in the Lebanon?

Who said anything about Palestine?

and your point is?

Yes I'm arguing the point that it has nothing to do with Israel or the USA or anyone else ,other than the Lebanese themselves.....that is my point!

besides the views of the Israeli's here are always one sided and I enjoy my debates with them,it does not mean I disrespect them,I learn more through dialogue .........funny that isn't it?

martinexsquaddie

02-02-2004, 10:51 AM

Israel asking syria to get out of lebannon is hardly to to persuade the Syrians or the UN.
If the lebanese want the syrians out thats a diffrent matter

Mr Gently Benevolent

02-02-2004, 11:02 AM

Argyll, there's a difference between Americans and the USA as a nation supporting the IRA.

During the 70,s and 80,s the UK Forgien Office tried every trick in the book with the US government in an effort to stem the flow of money to terrorists in Northern Ireland only to be blocked and hobbled by a powerful group of mostly pro-Irish Republican Democrat congressmen.
You would think that with the UK playing host to US military and naval facilties at the time there would have some great cooperation in anti-terrorist matters but the US paid no more than lip service to any attempts to prevent attacks on the people of the British Isles by Irish Republican terrorists. The flow of money could have been hindered at any time but due to the lobbying of NORAID and some very powerful congressmen we were victim to US sponsored terrorism. Its kind of ironical that the US forces stationed on UK soil were there to prevent communist expansion and that the US government allowed the funding of a Marxist organization attacking an ally.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/inac/images/adamsandcastro.jpg

Here is a picture of Gerry Adams and his buddy Castro, also his organization are big pals with the FARC I hear you are having problems with them.

Pille1234

02-02-2004, 11:02 AM

There's a good chance for a civil war to start again when the syrians leave. Perhaps some american peacekeepers still rembember 1983? The whole proportioned democracy is very fragile and christians and muslim government members are in permanent fear to get outsmarted.
I was once in Beirut (i admit, Beirut is very different to rest of Libanon) and people I spoke to weren't too unhappy with the syrians in their country. What they really hated were the palestinian refugees.

IDFM203

02-02-2004, 11:03 AM

You know I've come to realise that when the Israeli's get their teeth into something there's no changing their views at all and I have come to realize that our detractors views are as non changing as you accuse ours.

hell yes I'm just a naive foreign Westerner who only hears a one sided argument from the Israeli's all the time!!!...... first of all I didn’t call you a naive westerner per say.

What I said was you sound like one there..meaning your statement there sounds like one.

In general, I hold respect for your (well some of them ;) ) views.

As for one sided, I don’t know where you got that from, for around 90 percent of my posts are in response to the other side, be it coming from a European, Canadian or our one Lebanese member.

The other side is defiantly well represented here!!

you are never wrong or in the wrong are you? believe me after seeing your posting on this forum, this same accusation can be directed at you as well.

Anyways argyll its obvious from your tone from the beginning of this thread that you are very round up, lets get past this personal pettiness and simply stick to the issues here!!

What is riduculus about the statement re the Lebanese wanting the Syrian's out rather than the Israeli's wanting them out? what?? I did not call THAT ridicules, in fact I responded to that in my last paragraph in my last post.

What I found ridicules was your statement “IF THE LEBANESE WANT THE SYRIANS OUT then it is up to them,not Israel,or the US to state that,so far I have not heard calls from the Lebanese for this to happen,if the Lebs are happy for the Syrians to be there then live with it!!” which clearly implied that since you haven’t heard any complaints they must be happy with Syria’s presence and it was to that, that I called a ridicules and naive view as I repeat” wow :roll: …………….stepping aside Israel's demands or legitimacy of its demands for a moment, your statement here (and you repeated it before) is quite ridicules considering the reality.

No offense, but you sound like typical naive foreign westerner who simply didn’t hear anything or see anything so everything much be ok :roll:

Come on now………

In Lebanon you have a lots of people that want Syria out and are NOT happy with Syria’s OCUPATION of Lebanon, just they keep quite out of fear of what will happen to them if they speak out. Their silence in no way conveys their approval of Syria’s presence there”

It maybe that the demands from the Lebanese are being said in the Lebanon,but these demands do not seem to be reported on the broadshhets here,or on the News stations here....... no you don’t get it…..they aren’t demanding publicly there as well. But again they keep quite out of fear of what the Syrians will do if they speak out..I mean Lebanese clealy know of their quensquceses of speaking out aginst Syria when all they have to look at is hama, which was a town in Lebanon that Syria went in one day and wiped out the whole town, killing over 30,000!! Lebanese.

Listen there are plenty of Lebanese that are unhappy and all you have to do is do a search on google and your find plenty of articles on that.

for sure I'm naive I have never considered myself an expert on ME Politics,for which I leave that to these said Politicians,not people who offer their sole opinions without having the respect of others,who simply do not want to hear any other opinions other than their own one sided views!! if this was directed towards me that you need to seriously chill out :roll: …. first if I didnt want to hear others views, I wouldn’t be on this forum..
Secondly I hear them and I offer my response, just because I do that doesn’t mean that I refuse to listen, it simply means that I am engaged in a debate.

You should understand what a debate is, instead of merely offering up this condesanding statement.I heard your view and I disagreed with it and I showed you why (not merely being a contraian (sp?)as you sound sometimes)…simply disagreeing and offering up a reasoned and well explained counter response is in no way refusing to listen to another view.

Attained.......ha ha ha a posh word for grabbed I like it,tell me how you can say that it was attained through defensive wars,you do not defend what wasn't yours!!.....nice try!! Listen, before Israel attained those lands through war, it was being shelled at constantly from those lands, then in those defensive all out wars, it defeated the enemy that wanted to destroy Israel, on their land….that is how it got that land.

Not as you make it sound like Israel sat there in a “peaceful” region and then one day decided it wanted more land so it got up and grabbed it.

Are you or are you not in possesion of Syrian land.....and no BS about strategic vantages!!If that Land belongs to Syria ,then you did not defend it,you conquered it therefore did not attain it through defensive war!! we are in possession on land that was conquered (I don’t mind saying that word) in a defensive war. (not merly grabbed it)

When a nation (Syria) uses that land for years to attack Israeli villages down below and then threatens and prepares to annihilate Israel, so then Israel pre-empts that and defeats Syria on that land, it is illogical to expect Israel to give back that land so Syria can go back to bombarding Israeli towns down below and then in a few years invade again from that strategic advantage.

I do agree that the Syrians must stop their support of terrorism,however is it not upto the Lebanese to make sure such attacks on Israel are conducted from their land?. yes it is up to them and also to Syria for Syria is a defacto ruler there and they are as responsible of what goes on against Israel as some of the Lebanese are (I would even argue that Syria is more responsible)

A lot of that terrorism comes from Syria supported groups and Syrian camps that they start up in Lebanon.

In that case it is reasonable for Israel to ask that Syria stop actively helping out terrorists groups that act against Israel from Lebanon.

As for israel’s call, well I say again “well perhaps its not for Israel to do, however it is for Israel to demand that Syria stop supporting terrorism against Israelis from Lebanon and it is for Israel to threaten Syria that it will go after those terrorists if this continues when it is Syria that actively helps and harbors terrorists against Israel”

...................now call me cynical but who is to say that if Syria were to withdraw from Lebanon ,that the Israeli's will not invade and use it as a stepping stone into Syria? ahh??? :roll: Israel doesn’t invade not out of any fear of Syria?? Oh and Syria never went into Lebanon out of that concern

Also Israel doesn’t need Lebanon as a stepping stone to invade, it can do it from its own territory.

Thirdly and most importantly, who’s (besides a few exited members here) talking about any Israeli invasion????

Shalom :D

stephane from Paris

02-02-2004, 11:35 AM

Syria must leave Lebanon!
Israel must leave Golan!
OBD must buy a brain (special message from France)!

Israel should leave Golan because Israel have no risk with Syria!
Syria is a military David and IDF a Goliath (far better and modern army, nuclear missiles...)! If Israel don't wan't to leave Golan it's just a political affair not a safety one!

One?

02-02-2004, 11:44 AM

Syria came to lebanon at the request of the lebanese. They will only leave when lebanon says so. You don't like it bang your head on the wall :)

I said this before....

if syria is occupying lebanon then

the us is occupying germany, italy, japan etc...

UoUo

02-02-2004, 11:56 AM

Uo Uo........how many innocents have been killed buy Israeli actions in the last 3 years.........I'm willing to bet it's more than a thousand!

EVERY lnnocent life lost is a failing of mankind to talk!!

The number is lower then the inncent people killed by britian and USA in the gulf war.

What your point?

gilgoul

02-02-2004, 12:00 PM

I love an armchair General who knows all about warfare,and the ways to go about it.......typical clueless kids strike again!!

Like I said and get this into your thick skulls.........IF THE LEBANESE WANT THE SYRIANS OUT then it is up to them,not Israel,or the US to state that,so far I have not heard calls from the Lebanese for this to happen,if the Lebs are happy for the Syrians to be there then live with it!!

A terrorist breeding ground....oh you mean like Northeren Ireland whom the USA openly supported by organising fund raising campaigns to finance their fight against Britain?
You mean the same terrorist grounds in Spain ,France ,Germany,South America,the Far East.............wake up..........terrorism is not isolated to the Middle east and to Syria.......who's been smoking something now.

Will Israel give the land it grabbed from Syria and Jordan?You cannot expect that to happen,so why are they not being "forced" to do so?

and if you care to read into my threads obd,which you obviously don't,the US should not get involved in domestic disputes,you only started to care about terrorism after 9/11 when it hit home hard,you paid lip service to it 90% of the rest of the time.I stated that if the Lebanese want Syria out,then they should go...........but wanting to bomb them to bits shows you just how idiotic you are,I wonder how you'd feel if you were an innocent Syrian who's just had his family blown to bits by a wayward .
JDAM?
You are neither a soldier or a Politician ,and never have been,so I'd leave the thinking to them!!
You said talks and negotiations achieve nothing.........so they will achieve nothing in North Korea ,so why not just bomb them to?.......talk about double standards,you can call me names or whatever pal,but having served in the Forces you're not fit to lace my boots!...........stay off the crack.........it's clouding your thoughts,and abilities to think rationally
Almost 80% of your posts have racist undertones to them,you have a deep hatred for the Muslim religion,you have a fear and Paranoia of Arabs,all you seem to do is call for them to be bombed,and yet you sit on your ass and never back up your words by pledging your life to the sake of liberty,by joining the Armed Forces,too scared to serve are we?

Uo Uo........how many innocents have been killed buy Israeli actions in the last 3 years.........I'm willing to bet it's more than a thousand!

EVERY lnnocent life lost is a failing of mankind to talk!!

Argyll, I m sorry to see where rely your convictions and alliances.
Israel, note well, has given back territories, to Egypt (Sinai, camp DAvid, withrawal in 81/82), and to Jordan (ARAVA land deal, that brought to the peace agreement between the Hashemite kingdom and Israel in 1994).
Land has been also given to the nascent palestinian authority, wich still retain responsability and autonomy on the territory A, from where Tsahal forces have withdrawn for the most.
So, to make it short, ISrael is ready to painful and dangerous territorial concessions when peace, a real peace treaty (and not some Arafat or Assad s back stabbing hug) is at stake.
Now, about the Syrian occupation , From 1976 till now, Syria has maintained between 35000 up to 65000 troops in Lebanon, under the pretext to control the civil war, The Syrians have succesively battled and bombed palestinians, then chites, then maronites, then druzes, then re-palestinians, then AMAL, not counting the different attempt of intervention by foreign powers, including Israel.
But no protestation never reached the UN, the media have been oddily quiet when in 1985, AMAL, the chiite "leftist" terrorist group, decides to clean Chatila, the infamous refugee camp of south beyrouth, of it`s palestinians, with the active support of DAmascus. DUring 182 days the camp will be razed to the ground, perpetualy bombed from the kaiushas and d30 stationned on the former stadium, and manned (poorly) by syrians soldiers, as of the Mukhabarrat operations, the troops of the Saika etc... All syrian troops.
If the pseudo "crimes" of Israel are famous, no one has ever denounced the crimes of Syria in Lebanon, the indiscriminate bombing, the kidnapping of opposants, the "softening" of the christian minority, who now mostly lives abroad.
Like a MAfioso, ASSAD has "protected" Lebanon (very poorly), but at what price for this country?
I just agree with you one one thing, Lebaneses should be the ones denouncing this situation, not Israe, but oddly again, the only one able to do so are abroad, the lebanese people in Lebanon has just to agree or keep quiet.

Mr. Nielsen

02-02-2004, 12:01 PM

It maybe that the demands from the Lebanese are being said in the Lebanon,but these demands do not seem to be reported on the broadshhets here,or on the News stations here.......

In Lebanese newspapers syrias role in Lebanon is openly discussed.

I mean Lebanese clealy know of their quensquceses of speaking out aginst Syria when all they have to look at is hama, which was a town in Lebanon that Syria went in one day and wiped out the whole town, killing over 30,000!! Lebanese.

Correction: Hama is a city in Syria!

Also the situation was a bit more complicated than just speaking out a against Assad's regime. As for casualties I have heard numbers ranging from 7.000 to 50.000. And the town was not exactly wiped out, it's a thriving city today.

IDFM203

02-02-2004, 12:10 PM

Its about time we get our Lebanese/Canadian member involved here, instead of just having a euros view on things there.

Syria came to lebanon at the request of the lebanese. ... which Lebanese??? You know as well as I do that Lebanon is fractured with many different tribes and religions and saying that Lebanon did anything is a false statement..yes some Lebanese wanted them there and others did not.

(for a bit more on this, click the links at the end of my post)

They will only leave when lebanon says so. ... even if the whole Lebanon was united in this, I highly doubt that it would force Syria to revaluate their positions.

if syria is occupying lebanon then

the us is occupying germany, italy, japan etc... last I checked, after those wars, the U.S. didn’t go in and kill thousands of those citizens as Syria has done to thousands of Lebanese citizens.

Here is just a couple of Lebanese sites about Syria’s occupation there and their views on it.

Warning, some graphic material is there!!

Here is website about that www.2la.org/lebanon/ee/terrorsy.htm]HAMA (http://cp.yahoo.net/search/cache?p=syria+and+hama&ei=UTF-8&n=20&fl=0&url=uB9oE2-MwGEJ: that was committed against Lebanese citizens by the Syrians.

Here is more from that website on what the Syrians have done in Lebanon!!

[url]http://www.2la.org/lebanon/ee/terrorlb.htm

As for inviting them, well it all depends on which Lebanese you ask as to which invited them ;) ….anyways, you know as well as I do , that Syria went in without any so called invitation.

shalom :D

IDFM203

02-02-2004, 12:16 PM

I mean Lebanese clealy know of their quensquceses of speaking out aginst Syria when all they have to look at is hama, which was a town in Lebanon that Syria went in one day and wiped out the whole town, killing over 30,000!! Lebanese

Correction: Hama is a city in Syria! true my mistake, I got it from a Lebanese website but I didn’t read it clearly for there too it confirms what you said..

But still it just shows what happens when people speak out against the Syrian regime.

Lebanese that want to speak out, don’t and are fearful for they know every well of the hama massacre amongst other things as well.

Also the other link and what the Syrians have done in Lebanon to a lot of Lebanese citizens still stands!!

Shalom :D

Argyll

02-02-2004, 12:28 PM

see these threads all go the same way.........now I just don't get it at all,it's really funny how the so called lebs wants Syria out but they keep quite through fear......so if they keep quiet how do you know they want the Syrians out?
I'm pretty sure If I did a google search you could find the same arguments about keeping the Syrians there ;)

If I'm proven wrong I usually admit to it,I never say I'm right,but what I do and always have done is to keep an open mind,and that is still the case.

Onto the meat...............so You have Syrian land,I said no BS,you have their land,if they withdrew,would that land be given back?

Personally I could not care less what goes on,as the whole place is a mess with no ends to a solution,there is blame apportioned on all sides......nobody comes out of this whiter than white!.

the "other " side is well represented here............oh really.........how many Jordanians,Syrians or Paletinians or Egyptians post here? One from Canada/Lebanon and that is it..............the rest of the posters are from The rest of the world,who are not in that region........so how can you say the other side is well represented..........when someone post's facts relating to Israel you are quick to call them lies and insinuations,there are Israeli views then there are the rest,some here would call us Anti semetic,or Anti jewish,but what about the Anti euro views and sentiments from some of you?....................an open mind means you are able to listen to all points from everywhere...........and I'm not the only one who sees this.
I am genuinly interested in the Middle East,who can fail not to be with it's torrid history..........but I will form MY OWN OPINIONS on what I see and hear nobody will dictate to me the rights and wrongs,If someone disagrees with that then hell so what I'm not going to lose any sleep over it!

What I find amazing is that some of the Israeli's seems to know more about what the Lebanese want than the Lebanese themselves......I wonder why that is...if they are so scared to talk that is?

XASA

02-02-2004, 12:46 PM

^ Well said Argyll

fokket

02-02-2004, 12:56 PM

ditto Argyll

IDFM203

02-02-2004, 12:58 PM

see these threads all go the same way.........now I just don't get it at all,it's really funny how the so called lebs wants Syria out but they keep quite through fear......so if they keep quiet how do you know they want the Syrians out? because tons of foreign Lebanese exiles from all over the world, write about it and talk about it.

Secondly if you understood what is Lebanon and all the different factions, you’ll understand how not every Lebanese wants them there.(check my sites before for just a few examples)

I'm pretty sure If I did a google search you could find the same arguments about keeping the Syrians there ;) yes true, again I didn’t say that every Lebanese person wants them out but there are a lot that do and just because YOU didn’t hear anything, it doesn’t mean that they are happy with them there as you falsely asserted before.

If I'm proven wrong I usually admit to it,I never say I'm right,but what I do and always have done is to keep an open mind,and that is still the case. ok I can respect that and I deplore you to honestly consider what I am saying with regards to a lot of Lebanese not wanting the Syrians there.

belive me as you want me to have an open mind about what you are saying (which i do) you should return the same curtasy as well with regards to what i am saying!!

Onto the meat...............so You have Syrian land,I said no BS,you have their land,if they withdrew,would that land be given back? where did this come from…..them withdrawing from Lebanon or not has nothing to do with the Golan.

Second of all, if you actually read carefully what I wrote before youll see that I actually agreed with you that Israel has no right to demand for the Syrians to leave.

The Golan is a whole separate issue and Israel would be foolish to give up that land to a nation that still has large elements of people that wants to see Israel destroyed no matter if the Golan is given back or not.

(and please spare me the few English words to the western media, from assad, for they don’t represent any true feelings or for that matter what a lot of Syrians really want)

the "other " side is well represented here............oh really.........how many Jordanians,Syrians or Paletinians or Egyptians post here? One from Canada/Lebanon and that is it..............the rest of the posters are from The rest of the world,who are not in that region........so how can you say the other side is well represented.......... wow I cant believe I need to make my obvious statemtn even clearer…gees…………..no the other side, meaning their views are well represented here.!!!

The other sides views are very well represented here no matter where it comes from.

Again most of my posts are in response to the other view.

when someone post's facts relating to Israel you are quick to call them lies and insinuations, what?? I am not quick to call any fact a lie!!! Now if someone says a lie that he calls a fact, then I will respond with a well explained counter response, now I could be wrong my self but that is what a debate is for (meaning if I am wrong then that person can show me how I got it wrong). I don’t merely call anything a lie, I try to make a case when I see that a poster got something wrong.

an open mind means you are able to listen to all points from everywhere...........and I'm not the only one who sees this. yes and again” first, if I didn’t want to hear others views, I wouldn’t be on this forum..
Secondly I hear them and I offer my response, just because I do that doesn’t mean that I refuse to listen, it simply means that I am engaged in a debate.

You should understand what a debate is, instead of merely offering up this condesanding statement.I heard your view and I disagreed with it and I showed you why (not merely being a contraian (sp?)as you sound sometimes)…simply disagreeing and offering up a reasoned and well explained counter response is in no way refusing to listen to another view.”

I am genuinly interested in the Middle East,who can fail not to be with it's torrid history..........but I will form MY OWN OPINIONS on what I see and hear nobody will dictate to me the rights and wrongs, [quote]gees calm the hell down there Argyll :roll: …no ones is dictating to you a thing.

You said a few things and I disagreed with them, what? is disagreement with your views not allowed….gees!!

[quote]
What I find amazing is that some of the Israeli's seems to know more about what the Lebanese want than the Lebanese themselves......I wonder why that is...if they are so scared to talk that is? what I find amazing is that there are Europeans that can assume that Lebanese want them there simply because they haven’t read about any Lebanese complaints in their beloved bbc (for example)

Listen of course I don’t know more then any Lebanese (as you don’t know as well) but what I do know is that not all Lebanese are in favor of syira’s occupation and that is all that I have been responding to in this thread.

Shalom :D

Argyll

02-02-2004, 01:33 PM

Facts and Lies are lies and facts!

A few links to some Anti Syrian Lebanese is not ,especially those in exile,an overall picture of the situation,any person in exile is there for a reason,perhaps if they were still in their homeland that they endear so much that they bolted from it,and then spoke out against Syrian presence,then it would be different,the fact like you stated there are lots of different faction within Lebanon proves this,if it were a unified voice,then I'd go along with it!

We are both in agreement that the calls should come from the lebanonI have no probs with that,but you or someone said it was a Syrian "occupation",and that Israel wants them to leave,the same "occupation" of the Golan heights.....that sounds like double standards to me,I'm sorry but I'm just not willing to accept this crap about the land being used to shell Israel yad yada yada,shell them back.
You are looking at this point purely from an Israeli POV,I'm looking at it from a neutral POV,I have neither allegiance to either countries,or any other country other than my own which is Scotland,it doesn't bother me at all if you want to go on killing each other,that's your perogative.

Israel is the most powerful Nation in the ME and has the finest Armed Forces too,yet you seem to be all upset about attacks from bits of land you claim has tactical importance(Golan),I asked the question if the Syrian withdrew from Lebanon would Israel give that "Syrian "Land back.......it stems from the words you used about "Syrian OCCUPATION" of the Lebanon.......what's good for the goose is good for the gander

The Golan is a whole separate issue and Israel would be foolish to give up that land to a nation that still has large elements of people that wants to see Israel destroyed no matter if the Golan is given back or not.
what can you not handle about the Syrians,that you cannot defeat them Militarily.....what is it that has you so scared over a bit of land?

One?

02-02-2004, 02:25 PM

which Lebanese??? You know as well as I do that Lebanon is fractured with many different tribes and religions and saying that Lebanon did anything is a false statement..yes some Lebanese wanted them there and others did not.

there are no tribes in lebanon. Its more like different sects.

The syrians came part of the arab coalition to stop the war. The syrians came into lebanon to help out the maronitess who were sarounded in zahle. The french and american came for the same reason too. All the forces withdrew but syria stayed in lebanon. Syrians fought everyone during the war. They fought muslims and christians alike.

I will not deny that syria has pressure on lebanon. But calling it an occupation is just unacceptable. They are allies to lebanon so their forces are not considered occupiers. The forces have been withdrawn from the cities, and they are not visible (like they used to be). All the lebanese politicians will tell you (wether they are christian or muslim) that if the syrian army withdraws a new civil war would ignite. Those who left during the war still have the mentality of the war. The hatered isn't gone, and they are feeding it to their children.

To my knowledge the majority rules. So if the majority of lebanese want the army to stay then they shall stay. The only one asking syria to leave is General Aoun.

You see demonstrations and people write in the newspapers freely. Hell they even bash them on tv constantly, and made fun of on tv. So no one is suppressing their views.

The excuse for Aoun supporters is that the syrians are taking their jobs. Lets see there are 10 million lebanese spread world wide, and 4 million in lebanon. How the hell are you supposed to fit 14 million people in a country smaller than new york. You have thousands of graduates every year and they cant find jobs. Why ? because its a small country. Yet they blame it on syria.

You have to live in lebanon to understand what is going on. You think that those living there give a fuk about anything? All they care about is getting of from work at 2. Take a nap till 5. Get ready go out and come back 4 in the morning.

IDFM203

02-02-2004, 02:51 PM

A few links to some Anti Syrian Lebanese is not ,especially those in exile,an overall picture of the situation,any person in exile is there for a reason,perhaps if they were still in their homeland that they endear so much that they bolted from it,and then spoke out against Syrian presence,then it would be different, they bolted out of fear for their lives.

Again they don’t speak out against Syria out of fear.

Anyways’s there are lots of Lebanese in Lebanon that don’t like syira’s presence there but if you see things differently well that fine.

What I brought you was just two examples (btw one of my links is a darn good one that lists just some of this things that Syria has done), there are more then that. Again simply do a google search and you’ll find more.

What I want to stress here is that simply because YOU haven’t heard anything doesn’t mean that all are happy or that there are not large elements there that don’t want Syria there.

but you or someone said it was a Syrian "occupation",and that Israel wants them to leave, well again I didn’t say that I want Israel to demand for Syria to leave, what I do want is for Israel to demand that Syria stop actively supporting terrorism against Israel, be it from Syria or from Lebanon where it has a lot of control over.

Secondly Syria has over the years anywhere from 30,000 to 60,000 soldiers in Lebanon, in what to them is NOT their sovereign land, and has a lot of control of what goes on there. You can negate the term occupation or not, the fact remains that they are not there to merely help Lebanon out.

the same "occupation" of the Golan heights.....that sounds like double standards to me, well again there wasn’t that double standard from me.

But anyways they are not a double standard from even those others that approved of Israel’s calling for Syria to end their occupation (which again is not my stance)

The Golan was acquired by Israel in a all out war for its survival and as such its absurd for Israel to give up that land to a nation that wants to see it destyed.

That is not the same for Syria occupation of Lebanon which they did not acquire in any defensive war.

I'm sorry but I'm just not willing to accept this crap about the land being used to shell Israel yad yada yada,shell them back. well of course I don’t expect YOU to give a crap when YOU are living far away in Europe.

However I was hoping for a bit of understanding on what Israeli’s have to go thru where it is they that live under those bombardments.

Secondly before Israel got that land they were shelling us from on top and Israel tried to respond…….

Since Israel has that land there has been NO shelling from Syria..

I find it absurd that you want Israel to give up that land so it can go back to getting shelled so it can them shell them back :roll:

That’s is not any sane and livable situation that Israel should ever agree to.

You are looking at this point purely from an Israeli POV,I'm looking at it from a neutral POV,I have neither allegiance to either countries,or any other country other than my own which is Scotland,it doesn't bother me at all if you want to go on killing each other,that's your perogative. listen Israel doesn’t want to go on killing anyone…go read my sigline(the one in balck) as to why Israel fights.

Second of all you can stop repeating as to what doesn’t bother YOU, for its not about what YOU personally giving a **** about us, We are on this forum discussing and debating different view points and you made your statements which I found to be a bit false and I showed you why and not on how you feel about us or not.

what persoannly bothers you or not is a moot point for these discussions!!

Again stick to the issues.

As for neutral view, it is my experience that neutral doesn’t exist. But anyways I have said this before. Yes what I say is from an Israeli POV, so what?? It doesn’t mean its necessarily wrong..I don’t merely state a view..I usually try to being facts and sane intellectual arguments to back up my view.. If one disagrees, than that’s fine and that person should show me how I got it wrong and not merely say that I am wrong because your view is a “neutral” one and mine is a Israeli one.

Israel is the most powerful Nation in the ME and has the finest Armed Forces too,yet you seem to be all upset about attacks from bits of land you claim has tactical
importance(Golan), buddy that bit of land gives little Israel a strategic advantage (or more importanly it takes away that huge strategic disadvangte that it had before) that is very important to its national defense.(as I will explain a bit more at the end of this post)

I asked the question if the Syrian withdrew from Lebanon would Israel give that "Syrian "Land back.......
again I didn’t call for an end to Syria occupation of Lebanon. Hell I also think that its for the Lebanese to talk about or if they cant(which alot cant) its for the outside world to talk about and not Israel’s say.what I do care is for Syria to end its support for its proxies in Lebanon and in the west bank from attacking Israelis.

what can you not handle about the Syrians,that you cannot defeat them Militarily.....what is it that has you so scared over a bit of land? I didn’t realize that this conversation will turn into the Golan but since it has here well here is a bit of our concerns….(there is a lot more but I think this will suffice for now)

Yes Israel can defeat Syria without the Golan…that is not the issue…. in a war a lot of lives will be lost and much more will be lost with Syria’s position of the Golan then without it……listen if most in Syria were really and internally interested in a true and genuine peace with Israel, then perhaps there is a discussion but as it stands now, large elements of the Syria want to see Israel destroyed no matter what Israel offers and as such, it is inconceivable for Israel to give up that strategic land to a nation that will only feel embolden to rethink its chances against Israel now that it is they that have that strategic land mass.

Proponents of a Golan withdrawal commonly state that "peace is a better basis for security than territory." That assertion is essentially a debatable political, not a military judgment. No military expert in Israel (or anywhere else) argues that, in the event of war, Syrian possession of the Heights would not matter. The argument that "peace is better than territory" is valid only as long as there is peace. But if war were to break out again, no one can seriously suggest that Israel would be better off holding a treaty signed by Assad than holding the Golan Heights.

Here are a few reasons why Israel needs to hold on to the Golan.

First, holding the Heights gives Israel strategic depth. The Golan territory is roughly 10 miles by 40 miles. All of Israel, including the Golan and the West Bank, is only approximately 45 miles wide by 270 miles. (First-time visitors to Israel almost invariably remark on how small the country is.) Thus, in the north, the Golan Heights makes the territory under Israel's control nearly fifty percent wider than it would be otherwise. This buffer zone, this extension of territory where Israel faces its most formidable enemy, is an important military asset for Israel.

Second, control of high ground on the Golan gives Israel direct line-of-sight surveillance and warning of threatening Syrian movements in the plains below or in south Lebanon. Early warning is important to a defense posture that relies, in the event of war, upon a thin line of active forces to hold while reserves mobilize to meet the kind of attacks that Syria's large and well-equipped standing army might mount.

Third, modern technology has by no means eliminated altogether the disadvantages of having to fight uphill, a reality acknowledged by military commanders everywhere. The operational planning of the U.S. military, for example, still places great emphasis on command of the high ground as a critical force multiplier.

Fourth, possession of the Golan puts the IDF within easy striking range of Damascus. This contributes to Israeli deterrence against Syria. If deterrence fails and war occurs again, Israel's Golan position enables it to mount spoiling attacks against likely staging areas. And its proximity to Damascus can help deter especially heinous actions -- for example, missile attacks on Israel's cities.

Shalom :D

SeanAshi

02-02-2004, 03:21 PM

Arab war on Lebanon
http://www.geocities.com/waronlebanon/index2.html

One?

02-02-2004, 03:33 PM

Arab war on Lebanon
http://www.geocities.com/waronlebanon/index2.html

LOL :cantbeli:

that is realy a non bias site. Emil Lahoud the lebanese President is a terrorist hahah.

WARNING DO NOT ACCES THE SITE: its infected with a virus called HAPTIME.

Argyll

02-02-2004, 03:33 PM

That is not the same for Syria occupation of Lebanon which they did not acquire in any defensive war.
thats your point of view,I think the Syrians see it differently

Anyways’s there are lots of Lebanese in Lebanon that don’t like syira’s presence there but if you see things differently well that fine.

There are lots of Iraqi's in Iraq that don't like the US,but if you see things differently well that's fine

What I want to stress here is that simply because YOU haven’t heard anything doesn’t mean that all are happy or that there are not large elements there that don’t want Syria there.
But you have heard it all......both sides of the story?

Secondly Syria has over the years anywhere from 30,000 to 60,000 soldiers in Lebanon, in what to them is NOT their sovereign land, and has a lot of control of what goes on there. You can negate the term occupation or not, the fact remains that they are not there to merely help Lebanon out.

you mean the same Soveriegn land of Syria's in the Golan,that YOU occupy

If that is not a double standard then what is?

The Golan was acquired by Israel in a all out war for its survival and as such its absurd for Israel to give up that land to a nation that wants to see it destyed.

And the mighty Isreali military cannot handle that situation?

However I was hoping for a bit of understanding on what Israeli’s have to go thru where it is they that live under those bombardments.
like I said if they shell you,shell them back,it's not like you've never done it before?

Secondly before Israel got that land they were shelling us from on top and Israel tried to respond…….

Since Israel has that land there has been NO shelling from Syria..
Are the Isreali's and Syrians at war?,but they were during the capture of the heights?...........tried to respond.........you mean it was innefective...then use other means then,he punches you,you kick him in the nuts .....simple it's called using superior firepower!

Second of all you can stop repeating as to what doesn’t bother YOU, for its not about what YOU personally giving a **** about us, We are on this forum discussing and debating different view points and you made your statements which I found to be a bit false and I showed you why and not on how you feel about us or not.

there you have it ,to you it is false,to non Israeli's there maybe something into what I say...I rest my case,it shows your bias and are not willing to accept any criticism of Israel ,or its stance,or it's politics....you have not got an open mind!

what persoannly bothers you or not is a moot point for these discussions!!

Again stick to the issues.

Why? when you simply do not accept criticism

As for neutral view, it is my experience that neutral doesn’t exist. But anyways I have said this before. Yes what I say is from an Israeli POV, so what?? It doesn’t mean its necessarily wrong..I don’t merely state a view..I usually try to being facts and sane intellectual arguments to back up my view.. If one disagrees, than that’s fine and that person should show me how I got it wrong and not merely say that I am wrong because your view is a “neutral” one and mine is a Israeli one.
Of course neutral exists,but not in your eyes,when someone shows you how you got it wrong,you call them lies and innacuarcies,and again post links mainly from Israeli sources....again it shows a bias
I respect your patriotism,that is a good thing to have,but as soon as "one" post something as well,you knock him down as well,by saying " lies and innacuarcies"

again I didn’t call for an end to Syria occupation of Lebanon. Hell I also think that its for the Lebanese to talk about or if they cant(which alot cant) its for the outside world to talk about and not Israel’s say.what I do care is for Syria to end its support for its proxies in Lebanon and in the west bank from attacking Israelis.
The outside world you say?and that would be who?the UN? Europe?Asia,there's a lot of countries on the outside world,does Israel listen to their views?............like hell it does
I also agree,the sooner Syria stops the support the ME can move a step forward

Yes Israel can defeat Syria without the Golan…that is not the issue…. in a war a lot of lives will be lost and much more will be lost with Syria’s position of the Golan then without it……listen if most in Syria were really and internally interested in a true and genuine peace with Israel, then perhaps there is a discussion but as it stands now, large elements of the Syria want to see Israel destroyed no matter what Israel offers and as such, it is inconceivable for Israel to give up that strategic land to a nation that will only feel embolden to rethink its chances against Israel now that it is they that have that strategic land mass.
Whens the last time you held a referendum in Syria asking about their feelings towards Israel?Again this is from your views,when's the last time you saw a vote from Syria en masse call for the destruction of Israel?

Fourth, possession of the Golan puts the IDF within easy striking range of Damascus. This contributes to Israeli deterrence against Syria. If deterrence fails and war occurs again, Israel's Golan position enables it to mount spoiling attacks against likely staging areas. And its proximity to Damascus can help deter especially heinous actions -- for example, missile attacks on Israel's cities.
And you think that perhaps the Syrians in Lebanon are also not thinking the same,that should Israel strike at them ,they are within striking distance back,it is ok for Israel to be positioned in a tactical situation to their advantage,but not for the Syrians?..........like you have always said you are constantly at war,and again you answered by saying Israel will never give up the Golan heights,yet you expect the Syrians to give up their strategic positions?
This is just like a pissing contest,only trouble is you always get piss on your own legs!!

UkrainianAmerican

02-02-2004, 03:48 PM

Ok, I apologise Argyll. I was very rude in my response.
It just seems to me that you (as many others) have come to a conclusion that the TRUTH is an EXACT midpoint between what the Israeli line is and what the Arab/palestinian line is.
Real world doesn't work that way.

Back to topic, One can probably confoirm that there are a lot of Lebanese people (espeacially in the South) who are not very fond of Syrians, and who wouldn't even mind too much if Israel did something about it.

Argyll

02-02-2004, 03:56 PM

No need to aplogise,I just call it as I see it,without taking sides ;)

alexjulian

02-02-2004, 04:23 PM

Let the Syrians stay in Lebanon...the arab world is so backward I cant see how it makes any difference....besides the arabs hate each other hundred times more than they do Israelis

IDFM203

02-02-2004, 04:40 PM

”That is not the same for Syria occupation of Lebanon which they did not acquire in any defensive war”

thats your point of view,I think the Syrians see it differently!!perhaps they do or perhaps just you do ;)

Anyways perhaps your right, just I would like to hear an explanation on how Syria went in to Lebanon in a defensive (to Syria) war??

Also I am just curious, I know your opinions about Israel but I am just curious, do you support Syria being in Lebanon even if there are some elements that don’t want to see them there??

Anyways’s there are lots of Lebanese in Lebanon that don’t like syira’s presence there but if you see things differently well that fine.

There are lots of Iraqi's in Iraq that don't like the US,but if you see things differently well that's fine no, I agree there as well

Both nations have a lot of elements that don’t want to see their occupiers (for yes even though I supported the war, I do admit that the U.S. is now a occupier) there.

Now with that said, those Lebanese that want to see Syria out of Lebanon that have been there for over 20 years are a lot different then those in Iraq that want to see the U.S. leave, both of them want their occupiers to leave but they come from different angels.

What I want to stress here is that simply because YOU haven’t heard anything doesn’t mean that all are happy or that there are not large elements there that don’t want Syria there

But you have heard it all......both sides of the story? .no I heard both sides…you in the beginning made it clear that you only heard one side.

You made it clear that because you didn’t hear any complaints then that means the Lebanese are happy with Syria’s occupation there.

All I did was point out how there is another side that don’t want to see Syria there (and I also acknowledged that there are a lot that do)

I have stated both sides, it is YOU that have refused to listen and recognize the other side there.

”Secondly Syria has over the years anywhere from 30,000 to 60,000 soldiers in Lebanon, in what to them is NOT their sovereign land, and has a lot of control of what goes on there. You can negate the term occupation or not, the fact remains that they are not there to merely help Lebanon out.”

you mean the same Soveriegn land of Syria's in the Golan,that YOU occupy

If that is not a double standard then what is?
Last I checked, land attained in a all out defensive war, is not their sovereign land any more.!!(and Israel keeps that land now for other security reasons as well as I explained before)

Also do you consider Lebanon to be Syria’s sovereign land??

Secondly I haven’t called for Syria to leave Lebanon, and as such I don’t know where you got any double standard from me.

They can be in Lebanon as if I care, what I do care about is them to stop supporting and actively helping out terrorist groups from Lebanon and from Syria against Israel.

The Golan was acquired by Israel in a all out war for its survival and as such its absurd for Israel to give up that land to a nation that wants to see it destyed.

And the mighty Isreali military cannot handle that situation? they could but the loss of Israeli lives would be much much greater in a war without the Golan.

Again this is not about winning per say, this is about prevention and limiting the loss of lives.(the amount of it)

However I was hoping for a bit of understanding on what Israeli’s have to go thru where it is they that live under those bombardments.

like I said if they shell you,shell them back,it's not like you've never done it before? yes and I prefer a situation where there is no shelling and no response……wait, we have that now!!! Ever since Israel has had that land, there has been almost complete quiet from that part!!!

”Secondly before Israel got that land they were shelling us from on top and Israel tried to respond…….

Since Israel has that land there has been NO shelling from Syria..”

Are the Isreali's and Syrians at war?, yes they are still now officially at war!!

but they were during the capture of the heights?...........tried to respond.........you mean it was innefective... yes it was and indeed now there isn’t any shelling and as such there is no need to respond to it (for again there is no shelling from them due to them not being able to from behind and down below the Golan that they are at now)

then use other means then,he punches you,you kick him in the nuts .....simple it's called using superior firepower! ahh yes, so now your actually calling for a policy of cycle of violence…funny mate ;)

Again to ask Israel to live in a situation where its towns can get shelled from above simply because it can shell them back is a ridicules proposition!!

Second of all you can stop repeating as to what doesn’t bother YOU, for its not about what YOU personally giving a **** about us, We are on this forum discussing and debating different view points and you made your statements which I found to be a bit false and I showed you why and not on how you feel about us or not.

there you have it ,to you it is false,to non Israeli's there maybe something into what I say...I rest my case,it shows your bias and are not willing to accept any criticism of Israel ,or its stance,or it's politics....you have not got an open mind! ahh I was waiting for this response…how predictable ;) ….ok now read very carefully what I wrote!!

I said yes to me it sounded false and then I showed you why. I did not merely say your false and left it at that……..I explained in detail how I felt that you got it false and if you disagree then like I said to you before “If one disagrees, than that’s fine and that person should show me how I got it wrong and not merely say that I am wrong because your view is a “neutral” one and mine is a Israeli one”

I will always accept fair criticism and if one has that then make a legitimate case to back up said criticism.

The fact that you can jump so hastily to your conclusions about me just shows how close-minded you really are.

I say again, I am bias to an Israeli viewpoint, I don’t deny that, with that said I always back up my statements with facts or/and sane intellectual arguments and if a person feels that I my self am wrong than he should counter with his own well explained arguments instead of merely discounting what I say because it comes from an Israeli viewpoint.

what persoannly bothers you or not is a moot point for these discussions!!

Again stick to the issues.

Why? when you simply do not accept criticismno what I don’t accept is your condensation and your personal feeling about us….I don’t share my personal feeling about you…….for again personal feelings are moot point…..stick to the issues and criticize if you may based on the issues and not on how you personally feel.

”As for neutral view, it is my experience that neutral doesn’t exist. But anyways I have said this before. Yes what I say is from an Israeli POV, so what?? It doesn’t mean its necessarily wrong..I don’t merely state a view..I usually try to being facts and sane intellectual arguments to back up my view.. If one disagrees, than that’s fine and that person should show me how I got it wrong and not merely say that I am wrong because your view is a “neutral” one and mine is a Israeli one.”

Of course neutral exists,but not in your eyes,when someone shows you how you got it wrong,you call them lies and innacuarcies,and again post links mainly from Israeli sources....again it shows a bias geez argyll :roll:

If you honestly observe my postings you know that I don’t merley respond by saying its lies…In fact I rarlly even use that term

When I call out an inaccuracy I point it out will a well explained response.

Ahh but of course, everything that I say must be false because I am bias and everyone else’s is true because they are all simply neutral :roll:

I respect your patriotism,that is a good thing to have,but as soon as "one" post something as well,you knock him down as well,by saying " lies and innacuarcies" yeah I knocked down “ones” post by merely saying “" lies and inaccuracies"?? :roll: go read my post to him…I explained how I felt some of what he said was wrong and I explained it in great detail..its called a discussion or a debate!! ;)

again I didn’t call for an end to Syria occupation of Lebanon. Hell I also think that its for the Lebanese to talk about or if they cant(which alot cant) its for the outside world to talk about and not Israel’s say.what I do care is for Syria to end its support for its proxies in Lebanon and in the west bank from attacking Israelis

The outside world you say?and that would be who?the UN? Europe?Asia,there's a lot of countries on the outside world,does Israel listen to their views? . Israel listening to their views or not is a moot point( I can go over that whole UN discussion if you want, but I thought that you already said before to me that you understood Israel’s view on it and even agreed somewhat…….if not then we can rehash that if you so desire)…the point is that the outside world for the most part is mute when it comes to what the Syrians have done in Lebanon.

”Yes Israel can defeat Syria without the Golan…that is not the issue…. in a war a lot of lives will be lost and much more will be lost with Syria’s position of the Golan then without it……listen if most in Syria were really and internally interested in a true and genuine peace with Israel, then perhaps there is a discussion but as it stands now, large elements of the Syria want to see Israel destroyed no matter what Israel offers and as such, it is inconceivable for Israel to give up that strategic land to a nation that will only feel embolden to rethink its chances against Israel now that it is they that have that strategic land mass. “

Whens the last time you held a referendum in Syria asking about their feelings towards Israel?Again this is from your views,when's the last time you saw a vote from Syria en masse call for the destruction of Israel? well yes it comes from views based on past experiences, however in more recent times as for what most Syrians want yes I haven’t done a poll, I guess since I cant prove a almost impossible thing to now prove, then I must be wrong about thier attitudes :roll:

So what are you saying??? Are you saying that most Syrians want to live in peace with Israel simply if they got back the golan?

Fourth, possession of the Golan puts the IDF within easy striking range of Damascus. This contributes to Israeli deterrence against Syria. If deterrence fails and war occurs again, Israel's Golan position enables it to mount spoiling attacks against likely staging areas. And its proximity to Damascus can help deter especially heinous actions -- for example, missile attacks on Israel's cities.

And you think that perhaps the Syrians in Lebanon are also not thinking the same,that should Israel strike at them ,they are within striking distance back,it is ok for Israel to be positioned in a tactical situation to their advantage,but not for the Syrians? again I did not call for Syria to leave Lebanon!!

Hell I don’t expect them to give up any tactial advantages just like I wouldn’t give up any tactical advantages that we have.

Just a couple of questions to you.

First do you think that Syria went into Lebanon to have a strategic advantage to Israel??

Secondly so you support them there for their tactical advantage but you don’t support Israel’s for theirs??

..........like you have always said you are constantly at war,and again you answered by saying Israel will never give up the Golan heights,yet you expect the Syrians to give up their strategic positions? no I don’t expect Syria to give up their strategic positions. However I do expect them to stop fighting against Israel

Secondly, I never said never give up that land, if I really believed that most Syrians were really and honestly interested in a real and genuine peace then there is something to talk about

I simply don’t believe that but hey I haven’t taken a poll lately so I guess I must be wrong ;) :roll:

Shalom :D

One?

02-02-2004, 04:59 PM

let me put it this way, you guys can argue for weeks. The lebanese have been talking about it for the past 11 years and nothing will change. Israel wont do anything and syria wont leave. ;)

UkrainianAmerican

02-02-2004, 05:01 PM

SeanAshi

02-02-2004, 05:18 PM

Damnit I was wondering why my computer was acting screwy

Argyll

02-02-2004, 06:27 PM

Tane Angle

02-02-2004, 07:17 PM

Bacilluspolymyxa-you hear that the US is having troubles with the FARC, or who? Sorry for my slowness. And trust me, I don't agree with supporting terrorism, regardless of cause; hitting civilians is just not an acceptable method of action. Does it happen, yes, but I'd like it if it didn't. The US could have done more, but didn't, and for that I apologize.

By the way, with my post on the first page on this thread, I am not afraid of going back in there or anything like that. However, I've lost enough surrogate sons in wars to be wary of violent conflicts.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

obd

02-02-2004, 08:27 PM

Hey Argyll first off Im not racist as the Muslum religion is not a "race" and second my sister and my brother in law are moderate Muslums whom I have no problem with at all. I actually supported her mairrage to him while my parents did not because I felt he was a good person. Im no racist but I see the difference between a moderate Muslum and a radical Muslum and also I do see those governments who propagate radicalism and mistreat women, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, etc etc etc as a threat as well they are.

Next, just because you "have served" does not qualify you to comment on things necesarrily. Serving in the British Army doesnt mean you know a damn thing about Syria. I know plenty of British soldiers with sub average IQ's and there are also many with above average IQ's. Many of my freinds studied abroad in England and two now live there perm. because they loved it so much. They do however have stories of the drunken, rude, and moronic British soldiers wondering about in bars and such. Same happens in America. By the way, for all my radicalism, I have taken the IQ test and, according to it, have a 173 IQ which aint bad in my book considering average. Of course I dont see IQ as really a very valuable measure of intelligence anyway because some of the questions are based on certain presuppossed levels of education that actually have nothing to do with intelligence in the strict sense of the word. Now of course high IQ doesnt necesarrily translate into knowledge in any given area either so it doesnt give me the right to make comments.......(you, Im sure, support this idea as you seem to feel I know very little about anything :lol: )

My point is we all have rights to express our opinions which is what this forum is all about. A seven year old could post a very insiteful comment on this post and its certainly possible that a 22 year veteran of the SAS could come on here and post utter rubbish (or a navy seal for that matter). People should be judged by thier comments and contributions, not thier backgrounds...Too often the "Im ex-military and your not so your opinion doesnt count" excuse is used to beat down people on this forum who otherwise have great things to say!! I have no problem when you tell me Im an idiot and I need to check my opinions but when you try to use the "Im a military man" trump card I can do nothing but start laughing until it hurts...............

Next, your idea that Lenenon is responsible for its own freedom in preposterous in the extreme. The fact of the matter is that the world community has a responsibility to protect nation states' territorial and political integrity and it is damn near impossible at the moment for the Lebanese to do anything at all about the thousands of Syrian troops in thier nation. If you remmember your history the Lebanese DID try to stop the Syrians. Read the book "ARABS AT WAR". It has detailed analysis of the battles and the Syrians actually did have quite a difficult time of it......There are indeed many Lebanese expatriots who do say that the Lebanese wish the Syrians to be gone but again, who in the world cares if a few political dissenters in Lebenon vanish in the night after openly speaking of and end to the occupation.

You seem to be rather hypocrtiical Argyll. At times you bring up "rights" and "occupations" and "international laws" and such in your arguments but then at other times, such as in this post, you choose to ignore the fact that Lebenon is an unlawfully occupied nation and focus on arguments like "well I never heard that many Lebanese saying they want independence". In my book thats beside the point. Its an illegal and unjust occupation and goes against international law. Why dont you be consistant and talk about the fact that thousands died during the Syrian invasion, Lebenon has a right to its own territorial integrity and should have so until it is proven that most in the nation wish to remain under Syrian domination, etc etc etc. Silence is not a good measure of acceptance Argyll...Thats very dangerous to see things that way.... Also, cant ignore the fact that Syria basically uses Lebenon for a terrorist breeding ground and for attacks against Israel which should give Isreal, and any of its allies, the RIGHT to demand Syria leave its ILLEGAL and UNJUST and THREATENING accupation of Lebenon...

Next, its wrong of you to assume I "woke up to terrorism after Sept 11". Not all Americans were nieve to the threat. I "woke up tp terrorism" when Timothy McVeigh attacked the federal building in Oaklahoma and I "woke up to Islamic radicalism" years ago and long before Osama bin Laden when reading about the Soviet Afghan war. I have since read as much as possible about Islamic militancy all over the world. Now I will admit that maybe I am a victim of my own "obsession" with this and it has clouded my mind into seeing all Muslums as a threat but, as I said earlier, I have no problems with moderate Muslums and have some in my family (one through blood and the rest through my sisters mairrage).......

You assume Americans are all self absorbed because of their geographic isolation (not to mention all the Hollywood bull**** and negative focused publicity of American youth and such wich ignores all the great acheivements of American youth in ALL aspects of science, art, history etc etc etc etc which happen every single day) with regard to the middle-east and Europe but of course most Europeans have little to do, at least on a comparative level to the US, with central and south America...... The fact of the matter is that the United States has more diverse interests in more places in the world than ANY single other nation and thus we would suffer greatly to ignore the worlds problems. Why do you think we have been engaged so often these past decades???

Next, you say the views of Israeli's are always one-sided. Were do you get this notion. You know something, for someone who accuses others of racism you seem to be a little prejudiced yourself...................Most of the claimed Israeli's on this website are quite adept at defending thier positions and will tear apart each and every segment of your (not "your" literally) argument to expose any weakness. Maybe thats what has your panties so far up your ass eh????

Next, maybe US individuals arnt supporting British crackdowns on Irish terror because we see it as a valid fight against oppression just as many Europeans see the Palestinians fight as justified, but just not their actions......We all know the history of British colonization of Ireland and it wasnt pretty and would not be legal by todays standards. Can you really blame the Irish for wanting to restore thier territorial integrity????? What are they suppossed to do, take you on in the open man for man. Of course not. They are using the only weapons available to them. I DO NOT support thier terror actions but I certainly support thier motives and lets not ignore the many British atrocities in Ireland either.........And the reason there are so many Irish in America is because they all fled to America to escape you British. Thats what happens when you **** over a nation of people...they tend to bight you back in the ass a little at some point......

Argyll, I respect your opinions man but lately I think you have been going downhill a little. I respected you more when you called my ideas idiotic and then provided evidence to back it up than now when you use pitiful tools of argumentation like "Im a soldier so I know about geopoltics" and such. I liked the "old you" more....Please call my ideas stupid and crazy and then destroy what I say. Please dont attack me as an American, attack me as being a civilian etc. Attack my argument, not me!!!!!

obd

02-02-2004, 08:41 PM

Oh and since you insist upon giving me hell for various spelling errors of mine, most of which are mere typos due to my laptops mini-keyboard, I will post a mistake of yours : "I do not support neither...." would be incorrect grammaticaly as it constitutes a double negative. You, know, your starting to sound like your from a rural American farm in....say.......Montana and not England hehe. Again this is only a joke and Im not being serious. Just jabbing you a little . No hard feelings I hope.....I dont really give a damn about your grammar, just your ideas and contributions which I agree with on some notes and disagree with on others. By the way, I still like that poem you wrote :hug:

California Joe

02-02-2004, 08:45 PM

Argyll is going to beat you up.

obd

02-02-2004, 09:17 PM

yes I hope so. As long as he beats up my ideas and not "me" Im game. After all, my opinions are not set in stone and he could certainly destroy my argument and cause me to re-asses my views and maybe even agree with him

Argyll

02-03-2004, 05:03 AM

an IQ of 173 means **** by the way have you heard of all brains but no common sense?
Did I ever state I was an expert in ME affairs?Nope! Are you an expert?
Did I say that having served gave me credability over ME affairs?Nope.
But having served gives me more credence with Military affairs current and present over a text book warrior!!

By the way it is Muslim.....not Muslum ;)
I'm curious as to your claim to know British Soldiers especially ones who divulge their IQ's
I've also asked several times for your age,which you fail to supply ,which would give me an idea of the type of responses and typical of your age group!
The fact that you have posted some really outrageous comments here without any subject knowledge or real life pratical experience says a lot,and I'm not just talking about this thread either ;)

Next, your idea that Lenenon is responsible for its own freedom in preposterous in the extreme. The fact of the matter is that the world community has a responsibility to protect nation states' territorial and political integrity and it is damn near impossible at the moment for the Lebanese to do anything at all about the thousands of Syrian troops in thier nation. If you remmember your history the Lebanese DID try to stop the Syrians. Read the book "ARABS AT WAR". It has detailed analysis of the battles and the Syrians actually did have quite a difficult time of it......There are indeed many Lebanese expatriots who do say that the Lebanese wish the Syrians to be gone but again, who in the world cares if a few political dissenters in Lebenon vanish in the night after openly speaking of and end to the occupation

ah the very UN that you have berated so much in the past.......and reading books makes you an expert........that does make me laugh

Also just because your sister and brother in Law are Muslims,does not give you the credentials not to be labeled a racist........I have read most of your threads thoroughly,and there are racial undertones within the contents ;)

Again,I'll ask you,of which "One" a Lebanese himself,has stated,that the Syrian's were invited into Lebanon at the request of the Lebanese,you are quick to metion this occupation whilst failing to aknowledge the Israeli occupation of the Golan heights...............why is that?
Was it not the Israeli's who also invaded Lebanon during the 80's?and did thousands not die in that Invasion too?
See I show no favouritism,I mention both in the same breath and sentance,both as you say "invaded" ,which makes them the same in my book!

Israel which should give Isreal, and any of its allies, the RIGHT to demand Syria leave its ILLEGAL and UNJUST and THREATENING accupation of Lebenon...

On what grounds do you base this by whose definition is Syria's occupation illegal,yet you fail to mention the same ILLEGALITY of the Occupied territories under Israel,it cannot be illegal for one without it being illegal for the other can it?

And once again I will repeat myself seeing as you simply fail to pick up my points I have always said Syria shold stop with the terrorism stuff,and have agreed consistantly with the demands being made by Israel and the Internationla community to stop their support for these groups !

Next, its wrong of you to assume I "woke up to terrorism after Sept 11". Not all Americans were nieve to the threat. I "woke up tp terrorism" when Timothy McVeigh attacked the federal building in Oaklahoma and I "woke up to Islamic radicalism" years ago and long before Osama bin Laden when reading about the Soviet Afghan war. I have since read as much as possible about Islamic militancy all over the world. Now I will admit that maybe I am a victim of my own "obsession" with this and it has clouded my mind into seeing all Muslums as a threat but, as I said earlier, I have no problems with moderate Muslums and have some in my family (one through blood and the rest through my sisters mairrage).......

yes but the vast majority of the Citizens of the US thought it couldn't happen to them did they?

I'm also curious as to your Nationality?You think that by reading all these books give's you some kind of status? Are you a proffesor of ME Politics?
Are you a proffesor of Soviet Doctrine,are you a Proffesor full stop?

Next, you say the views of Israeli's are always one-sided. Were do you get this notion. You know something, for someone who accuses others of racism you seem to be a little prejudiced yourself...................Most of the claimed Israeli's on this website are quite adept at defending thier positions and will tear apart each and every segment of your (not "your" literally) argument to expose any weakness. Maybe thats what has your panties so far up your ass eh????

Show me a post from a Palestinian? show me a post from a palestinian viewpoint?Defending their positions or defending their ideals?I have yet to see Israeli's go at each other mammer and tongs over innacuracies,it is not just me who has pointed this fact,some revered members of theis forum all think the same thing.......I am not alone ,does that mean we are all prejudice?

I have an open mind as I always have I will listen to all sides of the arguments,but where is the Palestinian side of the arguments in htses debates?,what you have are the Israeli/US side and the EU side......and talk about prejudice have you heard of the repsect given to the EU by the Israeli's?

Next, maybe US individuals arnt supporting British crackdowns on Irish terror because we see it as a valid fight against oppression just as many Europeans see the Palestinians fight as justified, but just not their actions......We all know the history of British colonization of Ireland and it wasnt pretty and would not be legal by todays standards. Can you really blame the Irish for wanting to restore thier territorial integrity????? What are they suppossed to do, take you on in the open man for man. Of course not. They are using the only weapons available to them. I DO NOT support thier terror actions but I certainly support thier motives and lets not ignore the many British atrocities in Ireland either.........And the reason there are so many Irish in America is because they all fled to America to escape you British. Thats what happens when you f*** over a nation of people...they tend to bight you back in the ass a little at some point......
Now we're getting to it..........ok why do you support their motives but not those of the Palestinians?It's clear that you do not know the History of Ireland as what you are is a typical Idealist,so using your very own logic the Insurgents in Iraq are doing exactly the same as the IRA did?I suggest you go and read up some more about Irish History and you will see the clear Religious undertones that are very present today!What British atrocities do you know of,I can think of Bloody Sunday but that is still under investigation,but as you clearly have more lets have them?

Argyll, I respect your opinions man but lately I think you have been going downhill a little. I respected you more when you called my ideas idiotic and then provided evidence to back it up than now when you use pitiful tools of argumentation like "Im a soldier so I know about geopoltics" and such. I liked the "old you" more....Please call my ideas stupid and crazy and then destroy what I say. Please dont attack me as an American, attack me as being a civilian etc. Attack my argument, not me!!!!!

Em where have I used the "I'm a soldier so I know about geopolitics" in this thread? I think you'll find I have not done so,I think if you actually read my posts what you'll find is that I have said I know very little about ME politics,but it is through these debates that I learn more,I think I have very rarely used the ex Army thing other than to provide innacuracies such as your CAG/DEVGRU experiences.......all out of books,where'as mine on the other hand well.......I've have had the opportunity to exercise with US SOF and SEAL's as well as our own SAS ,I'd say that gives me the more credence don't you?

Mr Gently Benevolent

02-03-2004, 05:13 AM

They do however have stories of the drunken, rude, and moronic British soldiers wondering about in bars and such.
You and your pals want to meet drunken, rude and moronic Scottish scallop fishermen we give rude and moronic a bad name :bash: any of you guys who stay in or near New Bedford may have noticed the same goes for local scallop fishermen. :D

Mr Gently Benevolent

02-03-2004, 05:19 AM

in....say.......Montana and not England hehe.
An IQ of what did you say, any good with maps? many times Argyll has said he is from Scotland yet you still insist he is from England not to bright are we.

Argyll

02-03-2004, 05:26 AM

LOL Bascill.............I think every town in the world has groups of drunks in it

Yes obd I'm in Scotland,that is the Northern Part of Great Britain,calling me English Is like calling you canadian!

I have travelled extensively in my life and I can honestly say I have seen gropus of Drunks all over the place.........and not a British Squaddie in sight!

Mr Gently Benevolent

02-03-2004, 05:36 AM

I must find out what history books obd has been reading as I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment these history books seem like a hoot :lol:

Argyll

02-03-2004, 08:04 AM

obd just one other thing mate
look up the definition of a racist.......actually don't bother her you Go

RACIST
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

I have not been working today,so I've been doing a bit of research on this whole matter,and also the ME as a Region,it is very fascinating and intriguing,it's like all aspects of life there is always another side to the coin,I like to read these sides.....nothing politicaly motivated,I read both sides in my attempts to understand the cultures and beliefs,by reading "both" accounts you have to be impartial,it's called playing DEVILS ADVOCATE.......something that few here seem to get a grip on or realise!

Think of it from a judge's view,in any case he has to listen to the arguments from the Defence and the prosecution,and he has to be impartial to that evidence until all the facts have been gathered,he has to assertain whether that evidence is admisseable or not,he then has to form an opinion based on the facts,and thereafter submits his findings!

When you realise that I am mearly being the devils Advocate,then you may see things differently,I for sure will ;)

IDFM203

02-03-2004, 10:25 AM

IDFM203.........have I ever said I did not like Israeli's?Have I ever said I dislike Syrians or Palestinians or Russians.....the answer is no,so you cannot judge me on my personal likes or dislikes as I have never disclosed them,that way everything is impartial,it's called keeping an open mind! ahh?? :roll: When did I ever say that you like or dislike a nation??…all I pointed out was your statements that what goes on in Israel doesn’t bother you the least due to you living in Scotland and all I said was that your statement there is moot point for you don’t need to tell me what personally bothers you or not.

boy you read waaaaaaaaay too much into what I am saying :roll:

As for open mind, again its not about where you are or where your not from, an open mind is to see all points of view, and in the beginning of this thread you did not seem to accept the other view about Lebanon and it almost seemed liked you mocked me when I presented you the other view.

I do have an open mind, again if I didn’t I would not be on this forum. However an open mind does not mean that I must accept every other view as truth….no this forum allows for discussions and debates and as such when I see a statement which I feel was wrong, I make a case to show that. And if I too am wrong, then by all means go ahead and show me how so……………..this is what discussion and debate is all about.

I asked if they were happy to have them......there is a difference,again I also stated that it was upto the Lebanese and only them to make these decisions of which you agreed I have never refused to listen to the other side, up to now is not the problem…however yes you have refused to listen to the other sides……………..

as it is YOU who represented them,not the Lebanese themselves,sure you posted links,but I listened to what "One" had to say as he is a voice who can represent a view of the Lebanese you cannot do that being an Israeli can you? now to use your language…you prove my point…I rest my case ;) ……go read over this last paragraph very clearly and you’ll see how close minded you sound.

Lets go over this again……..you claim that in the beginning that since YOU didn’t hear any complaints that must mean that Lebanese are happy with Syria’s presence there….now a fact is that there are other sects and religions or elements there that do not like Syria’s presence there and that is the other side which you still refuse to listen to.

Like I made clear before, asking who likes the Syrians to a Lebanese persoan all depends on which Lebanese you ask, of course if you ask “one” who is a Muslim Lebanese he will say in approval…but go ask a lot Christian Lebanese or others and they will give you another answer.

Also those links I posted are Lebanese links and not Jewish/Israeli links.

Listen how mush of the Lebanese there dislike the Syrians is debatable but to seemingly and totally discount that there are Lebanese there that don’t like Syria’s presence, simply because YOU haven’t heard anything there, as you have done in this thread, is as close minded as you accuse me of being!!

I accept that there are a lot of Lebanese that like Syria’s presence there, but I also accept that there are a lot that don’t, YOU however refuse to accept the latter………and your accusing me of being close-minded :roll:

Last I checked, land attained in a all out defensive war, is not their sovereign land any more.!!(and Israel keeps that land now for other security reasons as well as I explained before)

Under what Laws did you check that against?International Law,under UN mandates or is that purely an Israeli thing? in truth I would think that its common sense…I am not a lawyer so I cant cite you if its a official law.

Anyways Israel doesn’t just keep that land because it got it at a defensive war…..if Syria would be a bastion of peace and it would not want to destroy Israel, then perhaps I would have a different view of Israel keeping that strategic land….the reality is that they aren’t any bastion of peace and there are still large elements that want to see Israel destroyed.

Using that reasoning does this mean that Iraq now belongs to the US and the Coalition,as they went to war citing the defence of their Countries,now they are there they can keep it for strategic reasons?.............I do not think so I don’t see how you made this comparison……again, Israel attained the land bordering it in a all out defensive wart for its survival. Giving up that land after that war, will only revert back to the perilous situation Israel was in before it got it…(now perhaps the IDF has a advantage,…….however it still doesn’t negate Syria hostility and loss of lives to Israel if another war should break out with out Israel having the Golan)

Last I checked, Iraq wasn’t a defensive war for the U.S. and Britain’s very survival and if Iraq was (and will be) returned to the Iraq’s, the U.S. and Briton will not be in any danger of Iraq at all………..that was defiantly not the case with Israel years ago and it still is not the case for it now.(now perhaps not a war for suvival, but many loss of lives will happen if a war were to break out)

What I also see is that you are prepared to use violence as a means to an end, ahh?? Where did you see that :roll:

Just because I don’t think its logical to give up a strategic land mass to a nation that still wants to destroy Israel, doesn’t mean that I prefer violence, it just means that Israel must defend itself with the threat of violence or better yet, have a stratigc land mass to be a another deterrence from war even starting again, all this in the absence of any true peace partner, no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, on the other side.

that is your right and every sovereign nations right to do so,and that includes Syria.........that's what you do not like,the fact that they have the same rights to survival as what you doArgyll you are so misreading what I am saying its as if you have these preconceived notions of how I think and your drawing your own conclusions even though I have never said such things :roll:

Listen I want Israel and Syria to survive…I don’t care if they survive…hell I told you before that I don’t even care if they are in Lebanon…..I just want to be left alone from them….in other words, they don’t touch us and we wont touch them..they don’t shell us and we wont shell them…in fact I don’t even want them to shell us even if we have the power to respond…….in fact I sound more non violence then you have sounded with your “oh shell them back” :roll: ….NO I don’t want any shelling to happen, period!!

Yes Syria has a right to defend itself. but they don’t have the right to offensively attack Israel as they have been doing through their various proxies which they actively help out.

The way I see it is that you have this chip on your shoulder,especially by saying my response to being called unbiased or leaning towards one or the other,it is your response my friend which is typical.....you think I'm the only one who notices this?It's like how you alwyas have to get the last word!! ;) argyll mate belive me at the same token, I am not the only one that notices your hypocrisy here….gees YOU should not be lectering me about getting any last word on these forums here mate :roll:

You see its you telling me how you see me personally, which has nothing to do with this conversation accpat for you making it persoannl and then your supposed talking for others is the tone that I am referring to what I say condesaning and now I even add arragnt as if you actually represent others here or that you feel like you can judge others here…………gees mate get off yout high horse :roll:

I don’t have a chip on my shulder……I like coming here for the spirited debate and discussions of different view points…..where you got I have a chip on my shoulder, Ill never know, but hey I cant change any feelings that you have about me nor do I really care.

anyways, how you feel about me is irrelevnt here, I dont start by telling you how I see you are, for they just lead to persoanl flame wars not to mention its a arragnt thing to do.

em excuse me but I think it was you who jumped to conclusions about my closed mind,I think you stated quite clearly that you thought I had a personal issue with you,and Israel on the whole......so who is being "Paranoid"?ahh?? Oh its you that is paranoid….go read my first response to you to see how I never felt any such things.

You show me where I said that you had a personal issue with Israel??

As for persoannl issue with me, I didnt think that before (as I stated in my first response here), but after reading your response now, you made it clear that you perhaps do :roll:

IDFM203 I couldn't care less if where the Syrians are I already told you that,as long as they were not in Scotland they could be on the moon for all I care!! and that goes for the IDF toogees again this is not about you personally…this is a discussion or a debate where you made a few statements on this conflict and as such I am curious to know where you stand about it…again what you will fight for or where you live is moot point here…again that personnel information is moot point here……if you are in a mid east discussion and you put forth a few opinions on it(which you have done), well I just want to know where you stand on those points that are very related to some of the opinions that you have put forth..

Either you purposely are ducking my questions are you misunderstood where I am coming from….

No problem…. again to make it more clear for you............I know your from Scotland and I know that what goes on in the mid east doesn’t bother you and that’s fine (phew…we got that out of the way, now…..), now you put forth a few opinions on the mid east conflict (that doesn’t bother you at all....well had to put it in one more time just to make it even more clear that I get you ;) ), and I just have a few follow up points to your points on this conflict.

I repeat

First do you think that Syria went into Lebanon to have a strategic advantage to Israel??

Secondly so you support them there for their tactical advantage but you don’t support Israel’s for theirs??

Shalom :D

Argyll

02-03-2004, 10:38 AM

mate I answered you questions by stating I could not care less where Syria or Israel were in relation Lebanon,I said they could be on the moon for all I care!

2ndly I said I neither supported Israel or Syria where ever they were

Argyll

02-03-2004, 11:37 AM

I hurried that last post as we had someone come into the house to do a survey !!

Did you not read the parts where I told you I was playing Devils Advocate?
Did I also not explain that I have no personal Interest whatsover in this situation?

I wonder who and where the ones that call me a hypocrite come from?

Like I said also I have been researching this situation today and it is indeed fascinating stuff,the whole of the ME is

I could go into details pulling your every paragraph apart like you do with everyone's but to be quite frank I cannot be arsed........you and I will always agree to disagree,that's why we are alike in many ways

As for open mind, again its not about where you are or where your not from, an open mind is to see all points of view, and in the beginning of this thread you did not seem to accept the other view about Lebanon and it almost seemed liked you mocked me when I presented you the other view.

In the beggining of this thread I said the matter should be dealt with by the Lebanese and not by anyone else
I asked if the Lebs were happy ,and if they were then so what? you said they were too scared to voice out,and yet "one said" the opposite.so I started to play devils advocate,of which you seem to be unfamiliar with that concept?

I said

as it is YOU who represented them,not the Lebanese themselves,sure you posted links,but I listened to what "One" had to say as he is a voice who can represent a view of the Lebanese you cannot do that being an Israeli can you?

now to use your language…you prove my point…I rest my case ……go read over this last paragraph very clearly and you’ll see how close minded you sound.

how does that prove to you I'm closed minded? How can you possibly represent a Lebanese POV?how is that being close minded?

Lets go over this again……..you claim that in the beginning that since YOU didn’t hear any complaints that must mean that Lebanese are happy with Syria’s presence there….now a fact is that there are other sects and religions or elements there that do not like Syria’s presence there and that is the other side which you still refuse to listen to.

Like I made clear before, asking who likes the Syrians to a Lebanese persoan all depends on which Lebanese you ask, of course if you ask “one” who is a Muslim Lebanese he will say in approval…but go ask a lot Christian Lebanese or others and they will give you another answer.

Also those links I posted are Lebanese links and not Jewish/Israeli links.

Listen how mush of the Lebanese there dislike the Syrians is debatable but to seemingly and totally discount that there are Lebanese there that don’t like Syria’s presence, simply because YOU haven’t heard anything there, as you have done in this thread, is as close minded as you accuse me of being!!

which proves that the whole picture is not likely to be represented fairly does it?Until the views of all factions have been represented here by these individuals then it cannot represent a balanced view can it?

Last I checked, Iraq wasn’t a defensive war for the U.S. and Britain’s very survival and if Iraq was (and will be) returned to the Iraq’s, the U.S. and Briton will not be in any danger of Iraq at all………..that was defiantly not the case with Israel years ago and it still is not the case for it now.(now perhaps not a war for suvival, but many loss of lives will happen if a war were to break out)
No ?really?,so it wasn't attacked in the Interests of National security then?
It was not attacked as it was a clear and present danger to the very security of the USA and to the region?What you are doing is assuming that if the Golan was handed back to the rightful owners,then they'd attack you again.........how can you be 100% in that.....you cannot,if this is the case then ,why not carry out a pre-emptive strike first?
You keep going on about Israel's defence,but what about Syria's defence have they no rights to defend themselves as much as you?That is what I mean by being close minded,I belive that EVERY nation regardless of whom they are have that right to defend themselves against attacks,that includes Israel,Syria,Jordan,the USA the lot!

You see its you telling me how you see me personally, which has nothing to do with this conversation accpat for you making it persoannl and then your supposed talking for others is the tone that I am referring to what I say condesaning and now I even add arragnt as if you actually represent others here or that you feel like you can judge others here…………gees mate get off yout high horse
where have I made this personal?,whom do I talk for?It is not I who is acting high and mighty,and judging others,as for being arrogant,I could say the same about you,I represent nobody,I represent myself,if people do not like what I say fine,people will make their own minds up,it's called having an open mind........again I've said this on numerous occasions,I have never claimed to represent anyone other than myself.
It is not I with the innuendos who's making this personal....look closer at the way in which you project yourself.......I have no idea where and how you see this as a personall thing,If I wanted to I would it's only too easy to do,this again is your paranoia into thinking this,I have no personal issues with you........but yet you do not believe this...why?

As for persoannl issue with me, I didnt think that before (as I stated in my first response here), but after reading your response now, you made it clear that you perhaps do
P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A......................................how many times do I have to tell you this it is NOTHING PERSONAL.....get over it mate.....life is too short!

;) SHALOM

gilgoul

02-03-2004, 02:47 PM

let me put it this way, you guys can argue for weeks. The lebanese have been talking about it for the past 11 years and nothing will change. Israel wont do anything and syria wont leave. ;)

If it please you to be an Assad sucker, well be it for you, especially from toronto.
That your country became the bitch of Syria ( and believe me, i deeply regret that mine had to go there in the first place, and didn`t get out of there as soon as it came in thew second place, i deeply regret it), if you`re happy with it from canada, why not.
But what I know is that next time Hizballah strikes Israel, I dare to hope Lebanon will understand that we re not dupe of the game, and both Beyrouth and Damasek will pay a heavy price.Makng clear to you that governements have to be held responsible for whats going on their territory. And that you cannot be accomplices of hizballah while playing the nice guys with the UN and Europe.

IDFM203

02-03-2004, 02:48 PM

I saw your last response after you wrote it, but I waited knowing that you yourself couldn’t leave it at that and low and behold here you go on que :D ……….how typical ;)

Oh and you say only I need to get the last word :roll:

You see that’s part of your hypocrisy…I never put my self on any high horse as you have tried to do by claiming I have this or that and then saying that I like the last word where you are as stubborn in that as you accuse me of being.

I hurried that last post as we had someone come into the house to do a survey !!

Did you not read the parts where I told you I was playing Devils Advocate? no I missed that…anyways it doesn’t mater what your playing, you made statements and I am responding to them….its not about you personally, but about what you wrote.whats so hard to understand? :roll: .…it was you who first made this personal and that too I am responding to.

It seems like you make a statement and then when one challenges that statement you get all personal and side step the issue.

Did I also not explain that I have no personal Interest whatsover in this situation? yes and I told you a number of times that you don’t need to repeat that for its moot point……you made statements on the mid east conflict, and I responded to those statements…..what you personally feel or not about the mid east is irrelevant…as much as you don’t care, I also don’t care if you feel anything or nothing about the mid east conflict…however you made statements on it and I responded to it…its as simple as that mate ;)

I wonder who and where the ones that call me a hypocrite come from? the same types of people that you claim that notices what you say about me ;)

I could go into details pulling your every paragraph apart like you do with everyone's
Yes and you never do that as well :roll:

........you and I will always agree to disagree,that's why we are alike in many waysperhaps but it doesn’t necessarily need to be that way….you make a claim and I show you how I think its wrong and then you can show me how I got it wrong myself…its called a discussion or a debate..

What we have here was your claim and then my counter and then it went off into a personal and whatever realm……..there was never any need to go there.

If we have a real and honest debate and a constructive back and forth and then we cant agree, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree, on this thread I don’t think we even got to that fair debate for it to even have that point….oh well

As for open mind, again its not about where you are or where your not from, an open mind is to see all points of view, and in the beginning of this thread you did not seem to accept the other view about Lebanon and it almost seemed liked you mocked me when I presented you the other view.

In the beggining of this thread I said the matter should be dealt with by the Lebanese and not by anyone elseyes and again I agreed with that from the start!!!

I asked if the Lebs were happy ,and if they were then so what? no you said in the beginning, “so far I have not heard calls from the Lebanese for this to happen,if the Lebs are happy for the Syrians to be there then live with it!!”
and all I did was to assert that not all Lebanese are happy and just because YOU haven’t heard any complaints doesn’t mean that there are no Lebanese that are not happy with Syria, for there are.

you said they were too scared to voice out,and yet "one said" the opposite. no he didn’t …he said that a lot of Lebanese like them…he never discounted that there are any Lebanese that don’t……also again. When it comes to Lebanon. Asking who likes syria all depends on which Lebanese person you ask ;)

BTW, again I acknowledge that a lot of Lebanese like Syria’s presence there, but there are also a lot that don’t……..that link that I provided is a Lebanese link and there are others out there that have the same view……to seemingly discount, as you have done, that there are no elements in Lebanon that don’t like Syria’s presence there, is the real close-mindness that you so often harp about.(of which amongst many other points, I find to be a bit hypocritical coming from you)

so I started to play devils advocate,of which you seem to be unfamiliar with that concept? no you seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of disagreeing and debate on a forum. ….I was disagreeing with what you wrote, I don’t care if you wrere playing devils advocate or not…that’s irrelevant….you wrote something I disagreed with it and I made a case as to why

How does that prove to you I'm closed minded? How can you possibly represent a Lebanese POV?how is that being close minded? no your close minded for refusing to even accapt that there is another Lebanese view other then them all liking Syria to be there.

I don’t represent a Lebanese view..but so what….I can make a case (which I have done) that there are elements of Lebanese that don’t like the Syrians there.

Hell if we only took as truth what someone says from that nation simply because he is from there, then hell I guess I shouldn’t ever make any case, I should simply say what I think is correct in brief statements about what goes on in Israel and say they are truth because it comes from an Israeli POV…….somehow I don’t think you’ll accept that as simple as that….that is why I don’t merely make brief statements but I make a case based on a lot of facts and/or sane intellectual reasoning……I mean hell just because “one” who lives in Canada and is Lebanese says something doesn’t mean its truth, in other words if he merly stated something which out making a case for it, then it has no bearing on anything….now he did later on make a well represented case and I did take that into consideration…..….and in fact I agree with some of what he said…at the same token, I made a case that there are Lebanese that don’t like Syria and you should judge it based on the case I made and not on which POV it’s coming from….the same with ONE, you should judge the merits of what he said based on what he wrote and not merely because he is Lebanese.

which proves that the whole picture is not likely to be represented fairly does it?Until the views of all factions have been represented here by these individuals then it cannot represent a balanced view can it? true indeed but that is not how you made it sound before….it was clear from the beginning that you only took one view on this and all I did was to show you that there is another…and yes perhaps there is even more…but what I do know and what I have made clear is that there is not one view in Lebanon about Syria’s presence there, as you seemed to have indicated that you belived that there was.

I clearly took into account both views, and have recognized both sides and perhaps there is even more then two sides, but still, two sides is better then only recognizing one side as you have seemed to have done.

Again its that position that you took, that I find insulting not to mention hypocritical, when YOU accuse me of being close minded :roll:

Last I checked, Iraq wasn’t a defensive war for the U.S. and Britain’s very survival and if Iraq was (and will be) returned to the Iraq’s, the U.S. and Briton will not be in any danger of Iraq at all………..that was defiantly not the case with Israel years ago and it still is not the case for it now.(now perhaps not a war for survival, but many loss of lives will happen if a war were to break out)

No? Really?, so it wasn't attacked in the Interests of National security then? no, it was, but not for national survival.
Listen defense come in many forms…..however the U.S. acquiring Iraq now was not the same on how Israel got it.

Also the U.S., giving back Iraq does not pose any threat to the U.S, as the potential threat and the great disadvantage if war were to break out, if Israel were to give back that land to Syria, which in my opinion still has large elements even after a return of the Golan, that wants to see Israel destroyed.

you are doing is assuming that if the Golan was handed back to the rightful owners, then they'd attack you again.........how can you be 100% in that.....you cannot, if this is the case then ,why not carry out a pre-emptive strike first? I can’t be a hundred percent certain…but the risk of it happening again and the resulting damage to Israel’s vital security will be greatly damaged if it does.

No one can be a 100 percent certain on anything, however there are lots of factors to give Israel great pause in doing something which can turn out to be a great mistake.

some of Those factors are that Syria has large elements that want to see Israel destroyed, (well for sure in the past that was the case but yes I haven’t don’t a recent poll so I guess they all changed their view about that since :roll: ) and them having back that strategic land mass, which up to now as been one of Israel’s deterrents from them even starting a war, will be eroded and they might feel embolden to fulfill their long held wishes.

As for rightful owners….why do you say that?? In my opinion a nation that uses that land to constantly attack over the years down below towns and villages of another nation, as Syria did to Israel when they had the Golan and then they amass troops to attack and annihilate Israel as they claimed they would, and then Israel defeats them and survives, to me that nation fofits its rightful titale to that after it uses that land for acts of aggression

But yes here I believe that we’ll have to agree to disagree here unless of course your playing "devils advocate" for really you agree with me ;)

Btw, this is a good example to highlight that I am responding to your statements here and not whether you are playing devils advocate or not, no do I care if you are…you made a statement and I am responding to it. Period!!.

You keep going on about Israel's defense, but what about Syria's defense have they no rights to defend themselves as much as you? That is what I mean by being close minded, no your further close minded by refusing to understand that I never negated Syria’s right to defend itself.

No what I keep on going on is Syria offensively attacking Israel

They have no right to do that as much as Israel has no right to do that.

As of now however they do in fact attack Israel offensively through their various proxies and they did attack Israel offensively from above when they were in possession of the Golan and all I am saying is that I don’t want Israel to revert back to a situation where it gets attacked even if it has the power to respond..

I believe that EVERY nation regardless of whom they are have that right to defend themselves against attacks, that includes Israel, Syria, Jordan, the USA the lot! AS DO I!!! However no nation has the right to attack another nation with unprovoked attacks………..Syria attacked Israel when it had the Golan and it does now through its proxies.

where have I made this personal?,whom do I talk for?It is not I who is acting high and mighty,and judging others,as for being arrogant,I could say the same about you,I represent nobody, there are more examples but I don’t feel like I need to do all the digging when all I have to do is show you this one paragraph that contradicts what you just said now……before you said “The way I see it is that you have this chip on your shoulder,especially by saying my response to being called unbiased or leaning towards one or the other,it is your response my friend which is typical.....you think I'm the only one who notices this?It's like how you alwyas have to get the last word!!”

Now in there you claim on how you see me, which is personal (not to mention arragent of you to do :roll: ), and then further you claim your perceptions of me is shared by others as if you speak for them :roll: . And then this last word comment as if YOU yourself don’t act as such, when it is clear that YOU DO!!

It is not I with the innuendos who's making this personal....look closer at the way in which you project yourself.......I have no idea where and how you see this as a personall thing,If I wanted to I would it's only too easy to do,this again is your paranoia into thinking this,I have no personal issues with you........but yet you do not believe this...why? argyll believe me I didn’t make this personal….it was You who read waaaaaaayy too much into what I am saying and it was YOU who made this personal…….I have showed you why before and to do so again would just be like talking to a brick wall for its obvious that you cant take yourself out of your high horse that you rode on to look back and to see how a lot of what you accuse me of doing, YOU yourself do and in some cases it was you YOU yourself that initiated some of the things that your “harping” about now.

P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A......................................how many times do I have to tell you this it is NOTHING PERSONAL.....
wow you are blind to how you write things :roll: …..again I never made this personal (well now its a bit, in reponse to your personall tones and statements)….in the beginning all I did was try to say to leave any of your personal feeling OUT…..what I made clear about your personal feelings was your statements that the mid-east conflict doesn’t bother you and all I did was say fine but there is no need to even say this…..then you somehow took it that I felt that you had personal issues with me or Israel which I never accused you of….it was as if you wanted me to have those accusations so you can come up with your response now…….however your last post did in fact get a little personal, and as such I said before I did not think you were getting personal at me but after seeing you last post perhaps I am wrong.

You need to seriously re read this thread and you’ll see how you read wayyyyyyyyyy too much into what I said and as a result you took this to the level it is at now.

But hell I guess on this too we’ll simply have to agree to disagree mate ;)

get over it mate.....life is too short! yes indeed and it is high time that for once your follow your own advice!!!

Anyways since I am responding to you now I just want to respond to a few other points in this thread.

OBD wrote..

Next, you say the views of Israeli's are always one-sided. Were do you get this notion. You know something, for someone who accuses others of racism you seem to be a little prejudiced yourself...................Most of the claimed Israeli's on this website are quite adept at defending thier positions and will tear apart each and every segment of your (not "your" literally) argument to expose any weakness. Maybe thats what has your panties so far up your ass eh????

Argylly wrote..

Show me a post from a Palestinian? show me a post from a palestinian viewpoint?Defending their positions or defending their ideals? again their view is well represented on this forum…..there are Europeans and others that have their view point well worked on this site.

Just because there aren’t a lot of Arabs on this site doesn’t mean that their view point is not heard and with regards to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, their view is well represented here from others.

Again most of my posts are in response to the other view point!!

Lastly

mate I answered you questions by stating I could not care less where Syria or Israel were in relation Lebanon,I said they could be on the moon for all I care!

2ndly I said I neither supported Israel or Syria where ever they were boy its like talking to a brick wall :bash:

Ok ill repeat for the last time on how I understand all that but……

“gees again this is not about you personally…this is a discussion or a debate where you made a few clear statements on this conflict and as such I am curious to know where you stand about it…again what you will fight for or where you live is moot point here…again that personnel information is moot point here……if you are in a mid east discussion and you put forth a few opinions on it (which you have done), well I just want to know where you stand on those points that are very related to some of the opinions that you have put forth..

Either you purposely are ducking my questions are you misunderstood where I am coming from….

No problem…. again to make it more clear for you............I know your from Scotland and I know that what goes on in the mid east doesn’t bother you and that’s fine (phew…we got that out of the way, now…..), now you put forth a few opinions on the mid east conflict (that doesn’t bother you at all....well had to put it in one more time just to make it even more clear that I get you ;) ), and I just have a few follow up points to your points on this conflict.

I repeat

First do you think that Syria went into Lebanon to have a strategic advantage to Israel??

Secondly so you support them there for their tactical advantage but you don’t support Israel’s for theirs??”

In other words, you stated opinions about this conflict and my questions are very much related to them and they have a lot of bearing on what you stated…its not about how you feel per say but about what you said and my questions very much relate to them.

Its as if you can say all these things about the mid east conflict which you don’t care about but then when I repond you simply resort to your from Scotland and blah blah……which is totally irrelevant to anything here!!!

Anyways despite our little “tussle” here, I wish you Shalom mate :D

XASA

02-03-2004, 03:13 PM

:cantbeli:

Haiw

02-03-2004, 03:43 PM

Why don't we just carve the middle-east off the earth and move it to Mars?

Argyll

02-03-2004, 04:40 PM

I saw your last response after you wrote it, but I waited knowing that you yourself couldn’t leave it at that and low and behold here you go on que :D ……….how typical ;)

Oh and you say only I need to get the last word :roll:

good fun isn't it? ;)

You see that’s part of your hypocrisy…I never put my self on any high horse as you have tried to do by claiming I have this or that and then saying that I like the last word where you are as stubborn in that as you accuse me of being.

I hurried that last post as we had someone come into the house to do a survey !!

Did you not read the parts where I told you I was playing Devils Advocate? no I missed that…anyways it doesn’t mater what your playing, you made statements and I am responding to them….its not about you personally, but about what you wrote.whats so hard to understand? :roll: .…it was you who first made this personal and that too I am responding to.

and pray tell me how I made it personal?what is your definition of personal

It seems like you make a statement and then when one challenges that statement you get all personal and side step the issue.

Who sidestepped anything,I most certainly did not
Did I also not explain that I have no personal Interest whatsover in this situation? yes and I told you a number of times that you don’t need to repeat that for its moot point……you made statements on the mid east conflict, and I responded to those statements…..what you personally feel or not about the mid east is irrelevant…as much as you don’t care, I also don’t care if you feel anything or nothing about the mid east conflict…however you made statements on it and I responded to it…its as simple as that mate ;)

and you have a problem with that?
I wonder who and where the ones that call me a hypocrite come from? the same types of people that you claim that notices what you say about me ;)

oh I very much doubt that ;) ,besides this again shows you are paranoid,as what I have stated here is that it is always the same views from the Israeli's.......not you personaly,that was your assumption,perhaps you have Napoleon Syndrome?

I could go into details pulling your every paragraph apart like you do with everyone's
Yes and you never do that as well :roll:

only to make you type like mad!! ;) ,if you can do so,then so can I :roll:

........you and I will always agree to disagree,that's why we are alike in many waysperhaps but it doesn’t necessarily need to be that way….you make a claim and I show you how I think its wrong and then you can show me how I got it wrong myself…its called a discussion or a debate..
Is that not what we are doing?debating and discussing the issue? :roll: [/color/]
What we have here was your claim and then my counter and then it went off into a personal and whatever realm……..there was never any need to go there.
No what we had was my observation,then your claim,Can you please point out where you believe it got personal,as I do not think you understand the meaning of getting personal!,unless you are looking at it again solely from an Israeli view,that is not personal,personal in my view means it was about you and nobody else!
If we have a real and honest debate and a constructive back and forth and then we cant agree, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree, on this thread I don’t think we even got to that fair debate for it to even have that point….oh well

As for open mind, again its not about where you are or where your not from, an open mind is to see all points of view, and in the beginning of this thread you did not seem to accept the other view about Lebanon and it almost seemed liked you mocked me when I presented you the other view.
[color=red] You have no idea and again that is your assumption,trust me if I wanted to get personal and mock you I could quite easily.but as to what gains would that achieve?

In the beggining of this thread I said the matter should be dealt with by the Lebanese and not by anyone elseyes and again I agreed with that from the start!!!

I asked if the Lebs were happy ,and if they were then so what? no you said in the beginning, “so far I have not heard calls from the Lebanese for this to happen,if the Lebs are happy for the Syrians to be there then live with it!!”
It's the same thing you are being pedantic,and again you are wrong!,it was not my 1st reply either,and more to the point at that time I was actually trying to get USA 320's attention,what I said about not hearing a thing was probably about the 3rd reply!!.......not the start of my posts as you claim.......come on man you preach facts ....get them right!!
and all I did was to assert that not all Lebanese are happy and just because YOU haven’t heard any complaints doesn’t mean that there are no Lebanese that are not happy with Syria, for there are.

Did I ever say that they were happy? I asked again if they were happy,again you are making assumptions!You think and assumed that I was under the premise that all Lebs were happy because I said that I have not heard them voice their discord?........I wonder how many people outside of the lebanon who are not Lebanese get to hear the voice of discontent?......again you were working on an assumption over this,again I never said that their voices should not be heard,no matter what a uiro posts or what "one" posts you will find a fault with! ;)
you said they were too scared to voice out,and yet "one said" the opposite. no he didn’t …he said that a lot of Lebanese like them…he never discounted that there are any Lebanese that don’t……also again. When it comes to Lebanon. Asking who likes syria all depends on which Lebanese person you ask ;)

I agree with that 100% woot ,but that is the same in any country!
BTW, again I acknowledge that a lot of Lebanese like Syria’s presence there, but there are also a lot that don’t……..that link that I provided is a Lebanese link and there are others out there that have the same view……to seemingly discount, as you have done, that there are no elements in Lebanon that don’t like Syria’s presence there, is the real close-mindness that you so often harp about.(of which amongst many other points, I find to be a bit hypocritical coming from you)

again I never discounted their views,and again that is an assumption on your behalf,did I categoricaly say their views are irrelevant and have to be discounted?.......I do not think I did,I have read the links,as I have done more research today,like I said already,but that part must've slipped past you!......very interesting reading it was too,especially the stuff about Auan(sp),if you go right back to what I said I said that it had nothing to do with Israel,it was the Lebs to decide for themselves,and you agreed with that,just because I said I had not seen or heard anything in the UK,did not maen that I stated that they were all happy living under Syrian control...another assumption on your behalf......he he have you picked on the buzzword yet? ;)
so I started to play devils advocate,of which you seem to be unfamiliar with that concept? no you seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of disagreeing and debate on a forum. ….I was disagreeing with what you wrote, I don’t care if you wrere playing devils advocate or not…that’s irrelevant….you wrote something I disagreed with it and I made a case as to why
Then I see that you have no clue as to the role of devils advocate,or the role of it?

How does that prove to you I'm closed minded? How can you possibly represent a Lebanese POV?how is that being close minded? no your close minded for refusing to even accapt that there is another Lebanese view other then them all liking Syria to be there.
Wrong again,where did I say that I did not accept another view,you are arguin gfor arguments sake on that point,just because I did not repond to those views does not mean I did not accept them!
I don’t represent a Lebanese view..but so what….I can make a case (which I have done) that there are elements of Lebanese that don’t like the Syrians there.
and have I not made a case also?Where there are Lebs that like Syrians there?.....again my whole point of this discussion was that this has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE OTHER THAN THE 2 PARTIES INVOLVED!!!
Hell if we only took as truth what someone says from that nation simply because he is from there, then hell I guess I shouldn’t ever make any case, I should simply say what I think is correct in brief statements about what goes on in Israel and say they are truth because it comes from an Israeli POV…….somehow I don’t think you’ll accept that as simple as that….that is why I don’t merely make brief statements but I make a case based on a lot of facts and/or sane intellectual reasoning……I mean hell just because “one” who lives in Canada and is Lebanese says something doesn’t mean its truth, in other words if he merly stated something which out making a case for it, then it has no bearing on anything….now he did later on make a well represented case and I did take that into consideration…..….and in fact I agree with some of what he said…at the same token, I made a case that there are Lebanese that don’t like Syria and you should judge it based on the case I made and not on which POV it’s coming from….the same with ONE, you should judge the merits of what he said based on what he wrote and not merely because he is Lebanese.
who said I didn't?again an assumption!

which proves that the whole picture is not likely to be represented fairly does it?Until the views of all factions have been represented here by these individuals then it cannot represent a balanced view can it? true indeed but that is not how you made it sound before….it was clear from the beginning that you only took one view on this and all I did was to show you that there is another…and yes perhaps there is even more…but what I do know and what I have made clear is that there is not one view in Lebanon about Syria’s presence there, as you seemed to have indicated that you belived that there was.
Assumption
I clearly took into account both views, and have recognized both sides and perhaps there is even more then two sides, but still, two sides is better then only recognizing one side as you have seemed to have done.
what part of I want to hear both views,both sides of the coin do you not understand and yet find so insulting........insulting is calling you Big Nose,or fat boy or retard......which I believe I have never done!
Again its that position that you took, that I find insulting not to mention hypocritical, when YOU accuse me of being close minded :roll:

Last I checked, Iraq wasn’t a defensive war for the U.S. and Britain’s very survival and if Iraq was (and will be) returned to the Iraq’s, the U.S. and Briton will not be in any danger of Iraq at all………..that was defiantly not the case with Israel years ago and it still is not the case for it now.(now perhaps not a war for survival, but many loss of lives will happen if a war were to break out)

No? Really?, so it wasn't attacked in the Interests of National security then? no, it was, but not for national survival.
Listen defense come in many forms…..however the U.S. acquiring Iraq now was not the same on how Israel got it.
I was using the same reasoning on your views on the Golan heights!
I think you're over exagerating this survival business,you know full well that the US would NEVER allow this to happen to Israel!!
Also the U.S., giving back Iraq does not pose any threat to the U.S, as the potential threat and the great disadvantage if war were to break out, if Israel were to give back that land to Syria, which in my opinion still has large elements even after a return of the Golan, that wants to see Israel destroyed.
your opinion may differ from the rest of the Intl community,you are always highly critical of us Euro's....if the cap fits I guess?

you are doing is assuming that if the Golan was handed back to the rightful owners, then they'd attack you again.........how can you be 100% in that.....you cannot, if this is the case then ,why not carry out a pre-emptive strike first? I can’t be a hundred percent certain…but the risk of it happening again and the resulting damage to Israel’s vital security will be greatly damaged if it does.

No one can be a 100 percent certain on anything, however there are lots of factors to give Israel great pause in doing something which can turn out to be a great mistake.

some of Those factors are that Syria has large elements that want to see Israel destroyed, (well for sure in the past that was the case but yes I haven’t don’t a recent poll so I guess they all changed their view about that since :roll: ) and them having back that strategic land mass, which up to now as been one of Israel’s deterrents from them even starting a war, will be eroded and they might feel embolden to fulfill their long held wishes.
all personal assumtions,you do not know the Syrian psyche,things have changed in the past 30 years it's a shame attitudes don't and that goes for all sides!!
As for rightful owners….why do you say that?? In my opinion a nation that uses that land to constantly attack over the years down below towns and villages of another nation, as Syria did to Israel when they had the Golan and then they amass troops to attack and annihilate Israel as they claimed they would, and then Israel defeats them and survives, to me that nation fofits its rightful titale to that after it uses that land for acts of aggression
why am I not surprised with this answer?
But yes here I believe that we’ll have to agree to disagree here unless of course your playing "devils advocate" for really you agree with me ;)

Btw, this is a good example to highlight that I am responding to your statements here and not whether you are playing devils advocate or not, no do I care if you are…you made a statement and I am responding to it. Period!!.

You keep going on about Israel's defense, but what about Syria's defense have they no rights to defend themselves as much as you? That is what I mean by being close minded, no your further close minded by refusing to understand that I never negated Syria’s right to defend itself.
BS by the very fact that Israel is demanding the withdrawl from Lebanon is that not a defensive "Occupation" along the same lines as the occupation of golan?
No what I keep on going on is Syria offensively attacking Israel
when is the last time that happened? and again why does it bother you so,when you are Militarily better than them?........scared? ;)
They have no right to do that as much as Israel has no right to do that.

As of now however they do in fact attack Israel offensively through their various proxies and they did attack Israel offensively from above when they were in possession of the Golan and all I am saying is that I don’t want Israel to revert back to a situation where it gets attacked even if it has the power to respond..

I believe that EVERY nation regardless of whom they are have that right to defend themselves against attacks, that includes Israel, Syria, Jordan, the USA the lot! AS DO I!!! However no nation has the right to attack another nation with unprovoked attacks………..Syria attacked Israel when it had the Golan and it does now through its proxies.

[b] tit for tat......when did all this happen again?20-30 years ago?And is Is the mighty Israel unable to attack these proxies......oh wait a minute you have been doing this for ......oh what years! ;) ,yet it is a problem now?
where have I made this personal?,whom do I talk for?It is not I who is acting high and mighty,and judging others,as for being arrogant,I could say the same about you,I represent nobody, there are more examples but I don’t feel like I need to do all the digging when all I have to do is show you this one paragraph that contradicts what you just said now……before you said “The way I see it is that you have this chip on your shoulder,especially by saying my response to being called unbiased or leaning towards one or the other,it is your response my friend which is typical.....you think I'm the only one who notices this?It's like how you alwyas have to get the last word!!”

Now in there you claim on how you see me, which is personal (not to mention arragent of you to do :roll: ), and then further you claim your perceptions of me is shared by others as if you speak for them :roll: . And then this last word comment as if YOU yourself don’t act as such, when it is clear that YOU DO!!
rofl by saying you have a chip on your shoulder makes it personal and arrogant rofl rofl ........oh yeah right rofl ,lets go the full hog why not assume that I am being racist......I can give you personal if you want, a chip on your shoulder is the same as having a complex,which you do not have right? ;) ........ rofl that should give some here a good laugh!!

It is not I with the innuendos who's making this personal....look closer at the way in which you project yourself.......I have no idea where and how you see this as a personall thing,If I wanted to I would it's only too easy to do,this again is your paranoia into thinking this,I have no personal issues with you........but yet you do not believe this...why? argyll believe me I didn’t make this personal….it was You who read waaaaaaayy too much into what I am saying and it was YOU who made this personal…….I have showed you why before and to do so again would just be like talking to a brick wall for its obvious that you cant take yourself out of your high horse that you rode on to look back and to see how a lot of what you accuse me of doing, YOU yourself do and in some cases it was you YOU yourself that initiated some of the things that your “harping” about now.
....pling ........pling........pling.....and you are none of the above either?

P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A......................................how many times do I have to tell you this it is NOTHING PERSONAL.....
wow you are blind to how you write things :roll: …..again I never made this personal (well now its a bit, in reponse to your personall tones and statements)….in the beginning all I did was try to say to leave any of your personal feeling OUT…..what I made clear about your personal feelings was your statements that the mid-east conflict doesn’t bother you and all I did was say fine but there is no need to even say this…..then you somehow took it that I felt that you had personal issues with me or Israel which I never accused you of….it was as if you wanted me to have those accusations so you can come up with your response now…….however your last post did in fact get a little personal, and as such I said before I did not think you were getting personal at me but after seeing you last post perhaps I am wrong.
you seem to be blowing this personal thing out of proportion,wantt to get personal?again I think you fail to understand the meaning of being personal!
You need to seriously re read this thread and you’ll see how you read wayyyyyyyyyy too much into what I said and as a result you took this to the level it is at now.

what level,as far as I can see it takes two to tango,I think you need to take a look at your own writings before criticising mine!
But hell I guess on this too we’ll simply have to agree to disagree mate ;)

get over it mate.....life is too short! yes indeed and it is high time that for once your follow your own advice!!!

Anyways since I am responding to you now I just want to respond to a few other points in this thread.

OBD wrote..

Next, you say the views of Israeli's are always one-sided. Were do you get this notion. You know something, for someone who accuses others of racism you seem to be a little prejudiced yourself...................Most of the claimed Israeli's on this website are quite adept at defending thier positions and will tear apart each and every segment of your (not "your" literally) argument to expose any weakness. Maybe thats what has your panties so far up your ass eh????

Argylly wrote..

Show me a post from a Palestinian? show me a post from a palestinian viewpoint?Defending their positions or defending their ideals? again their view is well represented on this forum…..there are Europeans and others that have their view point well worked on this site.

Just because there aren’t a lot of Arabs on this site doesn’t mean that their view point is not heard and with regards to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, their view is well represented here from others.

How in the hell do you work that one out sherlock?others being some of the Euro's who you say have no idea as to what goes on in the ME because they do not live it daily?

Again most of my posts are in response to the other view point!!

Lastly

mate I answered you questions by stating I could not care less where Syria or Israel were in relation Lebanon,I said they could be on the moon for all I care!

2ndly I said I neither supported Israel or Syria where ever they were boy its like talking to a brick wall :bash:

Ok ill repeat for the last time on how I understand all that but……

“gees again this is not about you personally…this is a discussion or a debate where you made a few clear statements on this conflict and as such I am curious to know where you stand about it…again what you will fight for or where you live is moot point here…again that personnel information is moot point here……if you are in a mid east discussion and you put forth a few opinions on it (which you have done), well I just want to know where you stand on those points that are very related to some of the opinions that you have put forth..

Either you purposely are ducking my questions are you misunderstood where I am coming from….

No problem…. again to make it more clear for you............I know your from Scotland and I know that what goes on in the mid east doesn’t bother you and that’s fine (phew…we got that out of the way, now…..), now you put forth a few opinions on the mid east conflict (that doesn’t bother you at all....well had to put it in one more time just to make it even more clear that I get you ;) ), and I just have a few follow up points to your points on this conflict.

I repeat

First do you think that Syria went into Lebanon to have a strategic advantage to Israel??

Secondly so you support them there for their tactical advantage but you don’t support Israel’s for theirs??”

In other words, you stated opinions about this conflict and my questions are very much related to them and they have a lot of bearing on what you stated…its not about how you feel per say but about what you said and my questions very much relate to them.
You're winding me up with this are you not,why can you not accept that I said I did not care why Syria is in Lebanon.are you trying to see if I support them.......I told you plenty of times,I could not care less of the reasons.....how the hell do I know what the Syrian reasons for going into Lebanon were.......ask their freakin High command!!
2nd Question ...........I told you I supported neither of them........why can you not comprehend this........and you say you're open minded....yeah right!!
Its as if you can say all these things about the mid east conflict which you don’t care about but then when I repond you simply resort to your from Scotland and blah blah……which is totally irrelevant to anything here!!!

the penny has finally dropped..........................!! ;)
the manner in which you asked these questions I knew what you were getting at,you think I have a hidden agenda.........and you are wrong
I can say what I like about anywhere in the world,and it will never make a difference,why because it is only 1 opinion out of what 50 billion people world wide..........have a nice day! ;)
SHALOM buddy! ;)

Anways despite out little “tussle”, I wish you Shalom mate :D[/quote]

UoUo

02-03-2004, 05:03 PM

Why don't we just carve the middle-east off the earth and move it to Mars?

What an ass.....how about moving your place...that place that cuase for more then 50 million people in 1 war....

Argyll

02-03-2004, 05:06 PM

you lot need to get a sense of humour.........It was a joke!!

UoUo

02-03-2004, 05:15 PM

you lot need to get a sense of humour.........It was a joke!!

Oh well...

Every man and his humour.

Anyway : no hard feelings :hug:

Argyll

02-03-2004, 05:20 PM

never is mate....take care

UkrainianAmerican

02-03-2004, 05:32 PM

I thus vote IDFM203 as the winner of the match.
Bye bye argyll, you are zee veekest leenk :P
:D

Argyll

02-03-2004, 06:08 PM

so it was a contest?
Oh well........some you win some you lose

On what grounds would you consider that he was the winner as a matter of interest? ;)

That was quite funny RA ;)

SeanAshi

02-03-2004, 06:52 PM

Why don't we just carve the middle-east off the earth and move it to Mars?
Let the Palestinians have Jordan Problem solved!

Argyll

02-03-2004, 06:56 PM

Do you mean the Model or the Place ;) ?
coz I'd have Jordan ;)

One?

02-04-2004, 12:31 AM

Argyll and idfm203 have too much time on their hands.... :roll:

obd

02-04-2004, 02:33 AM

By the wat Argyll I actually NEVER read anything about your being Scottish. Of course I know thats not "English" and I wouldnt have called you "English" if I had known you were Scottish. My bad. I really never had read anything you posted saying you were Scottish. I guess I should have botherd to be more carefull before assuming, due to you mentioning experience with British troops and such as well as your tendancy to post ALOT in British related subject areas, that you were British. Again my bad man. As to your question about my own nationality/ background/age:

Born Huntington Long Island (New york). Lived in Los Angeles while father was actor. Lived in Massachusetts for two years, Currenly live in North Carolina (home of Ft. Bragg which was just voted best army base for second time in 3 years...).

White male, 22 years old, dirty blonde, 6'2" tall, weight 175, 173 IQ,SAT 1340 (from high school days hehe) or some such, current cummulative GPA (at university) of 3.65, currently enrolled in honers thesis program, Cooper Test: 2 miles in just a hair under 12 minutes (I ran that with a buddy who was varsity soccer or footbal as its called in Europe), weekly ground distance covered is approx. 20 miles which I run (or jog) mostly for peace and quite and meditation from the crazyness of dorm life. Average rate of speed is approx 7.5 minute mile pace.

Last year I took a SCUBA class for a Physical Ed credit, aced the test, then went to Florida a month later to be "certed". I have to recert very soon to keep my SCUBA license which sux bad because I work and where I live its hard to get recerted without going to Florida which takes time and money. (Plus I really liked certing in the open ocean off Florida) In high school I got my VFA pilots license by training in a Cessna 132 from a university owned light aircraft field which occasionally hosted big ass Blackhawks who would land and get fuel and which, coincidentaly is the same university I now attend. Let me tell you, I was proud of my borrowed 132 (actually a different one every time) until a Blackhawk landed and suddenly bacame the biggest damn thing on the feild!! I was truly awesome just to see that thing land from so close! They really are bigger than they seem when your up close!! My motivation came from my best freind who was in USAF ROTC at the time. I have not kept up on that training and thus do not have my valid pilots license any longer. IT was kinda a "Work my ass of to get it" and then let it go thing. My dream was to fly my buddies (well one of them at a time anyway) down to beach and back for fun but never happened) To fly again I would have to go back to ground school all over again beacause its been years since I last flew which was very expensive...... This is one of the great failures of my life as I never actually made something out of all that effort and money. I worked my ass of cleaning airplanes at that field just to save a few bucks off the price and now have nothing to show for it!!!!!! Also I miss the great people at that airport Anyway, one good thing about my license was that it impressed the university board and helped get me accepted to a top ranked school..........

I also spent my high school days working hard and not having fun and all that money went to flying and not the hot **** car I always wanted (Instead I drove a beater 4 cylinder camry that was nearly older than I was and had a horsepower rating lower than my weight)............ I currently hold a green belt in Tae Kwon Do and used to compete at the states level but havnt competed in over a year due mostly to school and work. My sister on the other hand, is a nationally ranked fighter. She has fought famous fighters like the Lopez's and gotten her ass kicked hehehe. Hey at least she got there.....I gotta give her respect for that.

Hmmm lets see here...I have been to many places around world. Most exotic place I have family is Australia which I LOVE!! Last vacation was to Paradise Island in Carribean where I swam with dolphins which was cool but I forgot my digital camera on the boat and so I had to buy thier "professional" photos for damn near 100 USD when I could have had my own taken for free !!!!!!DOHHHHH!!!!!!. Last book I read of any note was "ARABS AT WAR". Last book purchased (not REALLY a book) was "SAS Encycolpedia: The definitive companion to the worlds crack regiment" by Steve Crawford which is "ok" in terms of historical data on better known SAS ops and giving a very general and non specific idea of SAS operations and personalities but overall a let down (weapons info was crap, training info was crap etc etc etc). Favorite book on SAS is "Who Dares Wins" by "Soldier I". Also "kinda" liked Andy Mcnab until all that **** about him . Either way, his descriptions of selection were interesting. Favorite book in US Spec ops has gotta be "SOG: The Secret War". HMMM what else...injuries..ah yes those!! Injuries include: 16 stitches from falling off high diving board onto concrete chin first (I have nice scar on chine), dislocated big toe from ruf-housing on couch when couch was lifted up, then couch leg came down on my toe as I fell backward, which very nicely took it out of socket and then it was reset by dude there who claimed to know how to reset a dislocation. Very painful (worse than my broken arms), 4 broken arms: #1 from babysitter when I was small child. #2 from being pushed off a two story treehouse for cutting in line at the "zip line", # 3 from mountain bike accident, and last and most embarrassing, # 4 from falling out of a chair wrong after leaning back too far.. One broken finger from an attempt to play a pickup game of Rugby with a group who knew what the hell they were doing while I did not (I still dont)............hmm if I think of anything I will let you know Argyll. I little background on you would be nice....Dont you just love it when you ask for what should be a single line of data and you get mind vomit like the above!!!!! :bash:

Argyll

02-04-2004, 03:38 AM

:D who said it was mind vomit?
Very interesting read there and I appreciate you taking the time to pass that info on,though I do think it was your attempts at sarcasm,but informative none the Less!

re me being from Scotland which is indeed in the UK,I mentioned it oh perhaps a dozen times within this thread,which I guess you were only reading between the lines of my posts,and not the whole post itself...no matter!
I'll give you a run down of my life later on I'm at work now ;)

One
....nah i wasn't at work yesterday so I had plenty of time to myself to research etc! ;)

IDFM203

02-04-2004, 10:37 AM

Ok now we have a whole colour scheme :roll:

Whatever, ill stick to black, its worked for me in the past ;)

This whole thing with me and you started with your statement “so far I have not heard calls from the Lebanese for this to happen,if the Lebs are happy for the Syrians to be there then live with it!!” which was clear in that because YOU didn’t hear any complaints, there must not be any….and all I have been doing is giving you another view (while I too recognize that there are a lot that do like Syria’s presence there) of where there are elements of Lebanese that don’t like Syria’s presence there and your seeming refusal to acknowledge the other view point was as close minded as you accuse others of being.

Now perhaps after my links and a bit of your own research you have come around to the other viewpoint as well, but that was not made clear in the first few pages of this back and forth.

but hey if you see that now than thats great, lets move on...........

Ok now what’s clear through your postings is your condesaning tone, which you have filled with a lot of little snide comments. I do go back and forth in debate but in those snide comments I rather make a simple paragraph, instead of addressing each and everyone, so as not to get this in a kindergarten level that this conversation was headlining to :roll: . what I will say is that what I mean by personal…is that you did later take it personal. To the degree is moot point…now what you say doesn’t effect me nor do I lose any sleep over it, but all I have been saying is don’t make this personal and its obvious from your tone and your little snide remarks that you cant help yourself in a debate :roll:

Also, Listen I don’t think you have any agenda (boy you love to read waaaaay too much into things…..oh and your accusing me of having a complex :roll: )

One other point about this off topic debate ;) …..while you like to insinuate that you are not the only one that sees what you say, I guess at the same token I too don’t think I am the only one that recognizes your hypocrisy that you have clearly shown throughout this thread.

ok now that we got that oit of the way..........

Listen I think we have a lot of misconceptions here so I will make my case clear now so as you wont falsely assume about me the things that you have done before…(oh and as for your previous buzzwird abuot my assumptions…geez for once follow your own criticism to others!!)

Ok what I have been saying.

Its not for Israel to tell Syria to leave Lebanon.

An observation based on some research (and I know some Lebanese my self) is that there are elements of Lebanese that don’t like Syria’s presence there, and yes there are too Lebanese that do in fact like Syria’s presence there…..Lebanon is a very fractured nation with hard divisions and as such there isnt really a Lebanese consensus and Syria’s presence there and approval of it also falls into some dividing opinion (how much is debatable but still……….)

Syria, Egypt and the other nations have as much right to defend themselves as Israel does.

Syria (and others) does not have the right to offensively attack Israel as they did when they had the Golan and as they do now through their various proxies in Lebanon ad in Syria.

As such Israel has the right for to demand that they stop acting aginst Israel from Lebanon which they have a lot of control over and bear a lot of responsibility of what goes on there and from Syria as well..

I believe Israel rightfully got the goaln in a defensive war for its survival and should keep it in the absence of any true peace partner on the other side….now in the past it was a bit more concrete that there wasn’t any peace on the other side, now since, I haven’t done any “poll” but I have seen nothing to indicate that Syria’s population really and genuinely wants peace with Israel

I guess on this point if you think otherwise, we’ll simply have to agree to disagree ;)

Now I asked you the two questions for regardless of where you live or not you have opinions on the mid east conflict, and as such I am just curious on your opinions which are very related to the opinions that you have in fact offered before.

For example even though you personally don’t care, you still offered up a view that Israel sould return the Golan to Syria (did you not??), and as such I am just curious if you believe that Syria should leave Lebanon as well…..both acts aren’t connected, still I am just curious on what’s your opinion on what I asked since you obviously have indeed some opinions on what goes on in the mid east.

My second question relates to you insinuating that in your opinion Israel should give up the Golan (ok to make clear, correct do you hold that view??) and thus Israel loses its tactical advantage so I asked in your opinion, since you think that Syria is in Lebanon for some tactical advantage (which is actually not the main reason they are there) do you think that they should leave and give up their tactical advantage as you call on Israel do to.

Now I guess you don’t have to answer these very easy questions, in fact I don’t understand how you got so defensive over them :roll: …I mean you have made opinions and statements on this conflict and all I did was to follow up on them……..geex argyll I didn’t ask you any hard physics questions ;) …their simple questions mate :D

P.S. I didn’t really want to write those three middle paragraphs, but on reviewing your last post, you wrote so much in that style, that I felt I needed to address it to you just so you know I how saw it

Shalom :D

obd

02-04-2004, 11:36 AM

haha, yes Scotland is in the UK. I was merely taking into account that you consider yourself Scottish and not English. I forgot to mention also that my mother is English and my father is Irish. My mother hasnt really done anything of note that I can really mention here on this forum other than work hard to give brith to my sister and I, always try to send us to the best schools, and basically raise us. Of course raising a family is practically the greatest accomplishment in life anyway so.......Incidently, my mother was going to visit Scotland for a few months with my Aussia aunt but she was convinced to go to Portugal instead because she had a freind there and housing was going to be free (or at least low cost). BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!

She said the drivers in Portugal were the worst ever. People going 120 mph on motorbikes with kids in lap and such......People driving on what seemed to be whatever side of the road they felt like......Also she said on the flight in she saw hundreds of trashed cars and thought Portugal might have a buisness processing wrecked cars from all over Europe. Now she thinks its just the cars from Portugal hehehehehehe. Well here is one thing that is very very true. American drivers in general are the "best" in the world in terms of accident rates a such. Im always amazed at the number of road accidents in England, Ireland, Portugal.....heck all of Europe for thier relative populations. When I travel, it always amazes me just how bad foreign drivers are. In Morrocco its VERY bad. Kids are killed all the darn time because they play soccer in the streets, even the main roads, and people run over them every day!!! It always nice to come back home and travel on roads with civilized drivers who dont seem to think the roads are battlegrounds hehehehehe Just Joking

By the way Argyll, are the groups like Motorists Against Detection (MAD) and such being honest when they talk of all those speed trap cameras and radars and such all over the place (I think they are called "gatsos" or something like that). Im not sure if its like this in Scotland but they say in England that local townships have gone crazy with these things because they make so much money. Some Brits are claiming as many as four tickets a day. I have heard there is a grassroots movement to destroy these cameras. It kinda worries me because in America they are concidering the same thing in some areas, including even exploratory studies on GPS systems in cars to constantly monitor speed and position which gives my privacy nerves electric shocks hehe.........Do you know anything about this by chance???

Anyway I forgot to mention anything about my parents: My father attended Ohio State University in the 60's where he played varsity lacrosse. In fact, if you look up in the record books for the highest number of goals in season ever, the highest number of assists in season, etc etc etc my father is ranked number 1 or number two. In fact he held the record for over two decades until it was broken sometime recently. Interestingly though, due to an injury my father played almost half the games in the season that the man who finally broke one of his records did so I still couldnt be prouder of him. Haha, he tries to help me with my workouts and such and I always tell him he is a big dork and I dont want him running or lifting weights with me or he will get hurt.....that is until he got out the old picture albums of himself when he was my age. THE MAN WAS BUILT LIKE ARNOLD (well not quite but almost)!!! After that, I have had more respect for his past and his abilities as an athlete. He was built back in the day when benching anything over 200 was considered strong and he was benching 250 in high school and runing marathons. I still remmember as a small child in Massachusetts when he did a "Tin Man" (baby Iron Man) and our house was the shower off/changing point after the swim. We lived right on the water and hundreds of people swam up to change and shower for the next leg. I vividly remmember seeing my dad get out of the water with red gashes all over him as if he had been wipped by a cat-o-nine because he went through a large group of jellyfish. He never quit though and finished the race. Lots of others quit after they swam through the Jelly's too......

Also, my father was featured in Sports Illlustrated after his lacrosse record and we have two copies of the magazine that featured him...Ones in storage and I have the other one as my own!!! hehe

Funny related story: A bit more than a year ago I was at my dorm on the weekend to pick up clothes for the laundry and I didnt want to carry them a mile to my car so I parked in the "fire lane" in front of the dorm. I did the obligatory "police check" to make sure it was all clear and ran up to my room. Sure enough, not 45 seconds later when I come back down (I lived on 8th floor at the time) Im getting a ticket from a university parking enforcement officer (or as I like to call them "University Revenue Act Officers"). I beg her not to finish writing the ticket but since its all done electrionically and she has alread sent it off she claims she cant help me. It was my third ticket (I can explain this later) so it was up to $100. She said she had the same problem when she went to Ohio State and felt sorry for me but coudnt change it.............So I decided to go for the gold on this one as it WAS a $100 ticket.......I mentioned my father went ot Ohio State and was a lacrosse star. Turns out when she went there she was involved with mens varsity lacrosse somehow and knew all about it and asked his name. I mentioned his name and turns out she had heard of him because his name and pictures of him are still up around the university......I show her my license to prove Im his son and give details to her.......She all of a sudden decides she actually can cancel my ticket and I,,err my dad, saves me $100.

With regards to my racking up mutliple tickets here is the expalnation: The parking lot below my dorm costs $500 a semester for a space which I didnt want to pay so..... I borrowed a freinds wh owas out of town and parked there every day so the parking officers got used to my car. I owned a Toyota Camry that had a unique color of red so it was easily recognizable. Anyway, the plan was to get them used ot seeing my car so they gave it only a cursory check for a parking pass later. The plan worked and I was able to park there for the entire first semester without a ticket (saving $500) but then midway through the next semester I get a ticket. I assume they must have got a new rotation of parking officers and I notice they have ... I try the same trick but it doesnt work. The new parking officer checks EVERY car EVERY damn time no matter whether she has seen it hundreds of times or not. Needless to say, I give her a couple shots before realising its hopeless and give up on saving $500 that semester and instead get a couple big tickets. Oh well, it was a good run while it lasted hehehehe...

Argyll

02-04-2004, 12:03 PM

By the way Argyll, are the groups like Motorists Against Detection (MAD) and such being honest when they talk of all those speed trap cameras and radars and such all over the place (I think they are called "gatsos" or something like that). Im not sure if its like this in Scotland but they say in England that local townships have gone crazy with these things because they make so much money. Some Brits are claiming as many as four tickets a day. I have heard there is a grassroots movement to destroy these cameras. It kinda worries me because in America they are concidering the same thing in some areas, including even exploratory studies on GPS systems in cars to constantly monitor speed and position which gives my privacy nerves electric shocks hehe.........Do you know anything about this by chance???

Nah hardly any up my neck of the woods otherwise I'd be seriously out of pocket!!Big rukus here as they are saying that these cameras'a re a breach of privacy or human rights or something so they have to paint them all yellow!!

All these tickest's? I'll be labelling you a criminal next!! ;)

OK I'm done with this topic,I am more than happy that there are indeed Lebs who want Syrians out........my whole point was that I never heard or seen it in the UK....it was never a denail that they did not happen!!rather an observation from a UK POV...... ;)

oh one last thing ;)

I haven’t done any “poll” but I have seen nothing to indicate that Syria’s population really and genuinely wants peace with Israel

Is that not similar to what I wrote about not hearing the discontent from the Lebs over the Syrian presence? ;)

NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!!!!
(care to join me IDFM203?)

IDFM203

02-04-2004, 12:21 PM

OK I'm done with this topic,I am more than happy that there are indeed Lebs who want Syrians out........my whole point was that I never heard or seen it in the UK....it was never a denail that they did not happen!!rather an observation from a UK POV...... ;)

oh one last thing ;) well it seemed like a denial before. But I guess I am happy you say that it never was.... ;)

I mean we can finnaly move on :D

Anyways to get past this for a second, seriously, even in the UK or from a UK POV, I am just curious, there are no British articles and documentaries on any Lebanese discontent with Syria??….I am sure I can find a few BBC articles on it…..(actually with the BBC I am not sure ;) …….oh well) for if not then it’s a real shame. I mean they harp about all sorts of “injustices” in this world and to see them mute on this is a bit interesting to say the least.

”I haven’t done any “poll” but I have seen nothing to indicate that Syria’s population really and genuinely wants peace with Israel “

Is that not similar to what I wrote about not hearing the discontent from the Lebs over the Syrian presence? ;) well first I have heard the views from Syria that they don’t want a genuine peace with Israel….but yes for the opposite I have not heard or read anything.

Now with Lebanon, you claimed you didn’t hear any discontent, and I showed you where there was.

In Syria I claim that I never saw or heard any widespread support for a genuine peace with Israel, and I guess its for you (generic) to show me, like I did with you in Lebanon, on how there are in fact a lot of Syrians that want a genuine peace with Israel;

Listen, I do think that there might be some in Syria that want a real and genuine peace, I don’t deny the other point of view simply because I haven’t heard it…however I feel like there most don’t based on what I have seen so far.

P.S. if you mean join you on the next topic with whats going on with you and OBD, then hell no ;)

I mean what the hell is going on with you and OBD…geez I feel like this has now turned into a dating website where he tells you where he’s from, where he lives, what he likes to read , what he etc etc….I guess your supposed to respond on what you like and what is your background and etc etc………..geez guys get a private room already p-)

Shalom :D

Argyll

02-04-2004, 12:37 PM

he's not my type!!

I wouldn't touch the BBC with a barge pole they are a biased media outlet. ;)
As for Anti Syrian stuff I guess it's just not newsworthy here in the UK.....it's a lot like appeasement!,to many Westerners its of no concern to them!

I think obd is just being funny.....as I asked him for some credentials,the last thing I want to do is start posting about ..Tuesday last week i visited the dentist with toothache and stuff!

He's fishing!

What I'll say is I was Born in Scotland in 1962 to an English Father and Scottish mother we had a dog once but it died :(
Hated skool joined the Army at 17 served for 8 years and was a MILAN Anti tank Instructor amongst other things served 8 years done 3 operational TOD's 2 in NI and 1 down in the Falklands.I'm married with 2 kids.......and still keep intouch with my Army buddies regularly.
I like Pizza,Military affairs,Art,literature,World affairs,Women ,Golf ,beer,and Glasgow Rangers but not neccesarily in that order!

What else is there you need to know?

IDFM203

02-04-2004, 01:04 PM

he's not my type!! as you say here in public….but we all kno…… ;) ;)

I wouldn't touch the BBC with a barge pole they are a biased media outlet. ;) Funny mate ;) , I always got the exact opposite impression based on your previous postings, on your views on the BBC

I think obd is just being funny..... no I got that, as was my response (and my later commant in this post) about the conversations between you and obd in the same funny light

as I asked him for some credentials, yeah and boy did he give you an answer ;) …geez it seemed like he wrote a book there to explain his credentials.

As for your other personal stuff to him, geez and now you with all that detailed personal stuff :roll: ;) , I mean I think you covered everything, well almost everything, I mean you missed out in telling him your eye color ;) . Its those little details that are important to the types of conversations that you and obd have going here ;)

ok now seriously.........

When you say you were in the Falklands. What does that mean?… you fought in the war there?? I don’t know a whole lot about that conflict or what British ground forces did there, so I guess any info would be nice to hear.

Shalom :D

Argyll

02-04-2004, 01:17 PM

No I was in Cyprus when the Falklands war was going on!I was there Post war but it was still classed as an Operational Tour(Live ammo etc).
I was in Cyprus when the US Marines barracks was blown up killing 250+,I was there assisting the wounded and the dead who were brought to Akrotiri to the Military hospital(I was in hospital at the time and everybody that could carry stretchers helped)It was not a nice thing to see,as you are well aware from your own experiences
I was also there when the PLO were a crdible threat to Military bases on the Island so much so that we were issued war footing ammo ,including L2 nades etc,the Island was on a very high state of alert!.

Me a lover of the BBC..........I've never liked these wankers,tho I like them more than the Labour Government.........I watch Sky News or CNN/FOX,very seldom the BBC!I think I've said before I had a dislike for the BBC in other threads.

Black hair and Hazel eyes 5' 8"..and that's all I'm giving out! ;)

obd

02-05-2004, 12:48 AM

Very funny IDF M203. If you read other posts you will find that Argyll and I tend to disagree on alot of stuff. This was my attempt to mend fences and such just to show there are no hard feelings. I was also pulling his leg a bit by giving him ALOT of info about me when he only asked for a little. Anyway, sometimes it is nice to get a little "human" info on people here so they become a bit more than a screen name. Not that Im trying to make freinds or anything. I think its clear I pretty much make enemies around here..... Just trying to relax things up a bit as lately its been getting a bit personal and such. Funny how after I read my own post I laughed at the same thing: It did kinda look like a personals advert hehehehe. Oh well, you know I never bothered to ask whther or not Argyll was a man ROFLMAO. Seriously though, I assumed he was a Brit..... No joke though, I live in the hot babe capital of the entire world outside of Check Republic and Slovakia....well eastern European area in general but excluding Germany and Russia (never seen an ugly girl under 30 there but they tend to get real real big and ugly in their 40's for some reason almost like they have a biological ugly gene that switches on mid life) My university was actually one of Playboy magazines choices as best school in America for single straight men. It has a 70% female population and 65% of them are hot!!!. Want a little hint? Think soccer (football) championships and you will know.........Funny how I dont have a girl at the moment....Damn...too much time on Militaryphotos.net and not enough time out and about.....

OldRecon

02-05-2004, 05:50 PM

Why the hell cant Israel just kick there ass? i mean the syria government, military and terrorist infrastructure would be done away with in like an hour if they would let the IAF do its job.

And it would also save the US the trouble later on.

The Israelis most definitely still have the capability to beat the armies of their arab neighbours on a conventional battlefield.
Yet they still don't have the necessary resources to occupy so much as one nation of such a beaten army, without resorting to "final solutions".
Even the little strip of land with the security zone in South-Lebanon became rather taxing to bear for their economy.
Israel is sort of surrounded by an anaconda.
You can dent it's squeeze for a while, but if you exert your energy too much in fighting back, it'll just pull the grip even thighter when you let up for a breath.
As for the nukes the Israelis are reported to have, their value is more psychological/political, than tactical/operational/strategical.
The arabs get most of their weaponry from imports, thus there isn't much vital industry to be targeted on the terriotory of their neighbours. And though one without doubt can kill of most of the civilian arabs back home that way. It won't stop any arab armies if they choose to amass on the borders of Israel. Then I guess those armies will allready be carrying what they need with them.
As for a safe application of tactical nukes vs. it's own population, Israel is too compact geographically, and may in the least suffer quite a bit from fallout from their own nukes in that instance.
In short it's gonna be a lose - lose situation for both parties.

SeanAshi

02-05-2004, 06:05 PM

The arabs get most of their weaponry from imports
by way of transport planes that is suppose to be carring food, water, and medicine between Syria and Iran.