China backing NK in the event of war.

[cut]

I was chatting to this chinese guy who has come to study at my uni, and he was banging on about how China would have to back NK (militarily!) if the West decided to take it out. I found this hard to believe, although this guy is studying economics and not international relations like me but I would still be inclined to take note of his opinion.

It's a shame the chinese contigent on this site has disappeared, but what do you guys think?

n.b.: I was swigging out of a Vodka bottle at the time so it might have been a hallucination ;)

[Haiw]

It's a shame the chinese contigent on this site has disappeared, but what do you guys think?
If I remember correctly Hood had to cut Chinese acces due to hacker attacks... :|

Anyway, I'd consider it highly unlikely that the Chinese would support North-Korea in a war. Things have changed. China isn't stupid. As the cold war is over, and they themselves are steadily capitalizing they wouldn't really gain anything from supporting NK. It would only destroy their economical progress...

[Fox2]

My uneducated opinion is that they would be unwise to do so. The Chinese are proud, but they aren't stupid.

To back North Korea would mean a fist fight with the US, and that brings into play things like nuclear weapons, Taiwan, and other factors. I don't think they are in any rush to fight when their economy is doing so well in peace.

Unrelated: Hey, you know that your Thread of the Week has been so for a couple weeks? :D

[Vance]

I wouldn't consider one Chinese kid in college's opinion state for the whole country...just sayin'.

[cut]

Unrelated: Hey, you know that your Thread of the Week has been so for a couple weeks? :D

nope I change it on mondays :D

I'm tempted to make it rebel 7's counter thread.

[SeanAshi]

How large is China's military these days?

[Vance]

How large is China's military these days?
I beileve they have the largest Army in the world.

[Praxus32]

It is something like 2.4 million, they decreased it from 2.7 million.

[Merik]

Kill 'em all, let God sort them out.

[usa320]

china aint that stupid, and i think China is becomming more moderate. Supporting a regime like Ill Kim Jongs would **** em over.

[Saint]

Kill 'em all, let God sort them out

Your an educated boy

[Flagg]

I was chatting to this chinese guy who has come to study at my uni, and he was banging on about how China would have to back NK (militarily!) if the West decided to take it out. I found this hard to believe, although this guy is studying economics and not international relations like me but I would still be inclined to take note of his opinion.

Ask yourself, What would China GAIN by supporting North Korea in a conflict with the US?

Answer: Nothing but PAIN

What would China have to gain by stringing out the current North Korean crisis and current foreign policy embarrassment to the US?

Answer: HEAPS

If China is viewed as having helped resolve the NK crisis Chinese reginal/global influence will continue to grow as will their credibility and prestige amongst the global community.

[Merik]

I was being sarcastic, in the most cruel way I could. Ill Kim Jong can go f&@* himself and if China wants to back him up then f^%# them too.

[sealgz]

I saw this topy till today,as a Chinese I want to say somthing.
1.Time have changed, if there is a war in NK, we do not want adn will not get in side, as some one said" What is our gain?" it do not like before whaile we just stand up. We are not strong enough ourself, while some one have a war infront of our door, that means may be the e will come in, so we must fight.
2.Now we may have the largest military power in the war, do not forget we also have large stock of ICBM and nu. but we love peace, if we like war, we have already kill Chen(TW). that son of a bitch.
3.Look backward, from AF till Iraq, did we again you? WE stand in the middle side, why you still want to fight we us? think about it we have over 1.1 thousands million persons, can u win?

Our people love peace ask the pilots who have been saved after bombing Tokyo, I can not quick understand many Americans, Japanese killed so many you guys during WW II, and you like them somuch, why?

[Breacher]

For those unaware, OPLAN 5027, updated regularly, (which has been around longer than I have) is now more focused on offensive operations into North Korea.

Short and sweet: NK flinches and starts an assault on Seoul, we counter and continue our drive until Kim Jung Il and his cronies are gone.

You're asking yourself, "How does this have anything to do with China?" It was mentioned earlier that China knows it is in it's best interest to stay put. Besides, if China had any concerns they would either be taken care of politically or with them seeing that we wouldn't advance past an invisible buffer. The benefits are nowhere near the consequences.

Either way, if/when we duke it out with NK, it's gonna' be a tough fight. I'm not saying we won't stand tall in the end, but those are some tough lil' F@#%ERS, and the terrain over there....Damn!

more info:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/korea-crisis.htm


Now what about China against the US while we help Taiwan? Hmmm..... Food for thought.

[Vance]

I saw this topy till today,as a Chinese I want to say somthing.
1.Time have changed, if there is a war in NK, we do not want adn will not get in side, as some one said" What is our gain?" it do not like before whaile we just stand up. We are not strong enough ourself, while some one have a war infront of our door, that means may be the e will come in, so we must fight.
2.Now we may have the largest military power in the war, do not forget we also have large stock of ICBM and nu. but we love peace, if we like war, we have already kill Chen(TW). that son of a bitch.
3.Look backward, from AF till Iraq, did we again you? WE stand in the middle side, why you still want to fight we us? think about it we have over 1.1 thousands million persons, can u win?

Our people love peace ask the pilots who have been saved after bombing Tokyo, I can not quick understand many Americans, Japanese killed so many you guys during WW II, and you like them somuch, why?
What the hell did you just say?

[sealgz]

just want to say **** the guys who want to fight with us, if the want a war with us they will be dead.

[Vance]

The USA or NK?

[duck]

Sweden?

[SeanAshi]

I've seen pictures of Pyongyang's city life, what do they do for fun other then abducting South Koreans and Japanese? Not many cars on the streets they have several air raid drills a day, but I doupt thats fun. You really want to piss them off start ripping on Kim Il-sung, there are more statues of that guy then there were statues of Saddam in Iraq.

[Nizark]

I saw this topy till today,as a Chinese I want to say somthing.
1.Time have changed, if there is a war in NK, we do not want adn will not get in side, as some one said" What is our gain?" it do not like before whaile we just stand up. We are not strong enough ourself, while some one have a war infront of our door, that means may be the e will come in, so we must fight.
2.Now we may have the largest military power in the war, do not forget we also have large stock of ICBM and nu. but we love peace, if we like war, we have already kill Chen(TW). that son of a bitch.
3.Look backward, from AF till Iraq, did we again you? WE stand in the middle side, why you still want to fight we us? think about it we have over 1.1 thousands million persons, can u win?

Our people love peace ask the pilots who have been saved after bombing Tokyo, I can not quick understand many Americans, Japanese killed so many you guys during WW II, and you like them somuch, why?




Que? Huh? What? Ish?

Great, the Chinese commie party has infiltrated this site!

[Midtown]

no need to mock him, he didnt understand what we were saying, he took it as us all saying "**** china and the ****s who live by em"

[Kitsune]

While the Chinese probably won't back NK like one would a good friend and ally, I do not believe that they will sit idly by and watch North Korea attacked and conquered by the US with an US friendly regime installed there. For them it will be something like a "Cuba Crisis", something that, if it would happen, would give the USA a significant advantage over an Chinese adversary in conflicts to come.

And China isn't Iraq, too.

[Seiyuuki]

While the Chinese probably won't back NK like one would a good friend and ally, I do not believe that they will sit idly by and watch North Korea attacked and conquered by the US with an US friendly regime installed there. For them it will be something like a "Cuba Crisis", something that, if it would happen, would give the USA a significant advantage over an Chinese adversary in conflicts to come.

And China isn't Iraq, too.

Ummm...last time I check, the KOREANS still prefer to resolve this problem for themselves.

To sealgz...I like the Japanese because they created my life and joy, my Super Nintendo.

[Kitsune]

Seiyuuki wrote:

Ummm...last time I check, the KOREANS still prefer to resolve this problem for themselves.

...

If things only were that simple as little Seiyuuki exspects them to be...

When was the last time you checked, Seiyuuki? The last Korean war? (The Chinese intervened there, didn't they?)
Anyway, I don't think the Chinese will ask the South Koreans. And the North Koreans will be happy for anyone, who could interfere with the US.

[martinexsquaddie]

there's some really nasty stories in the observer about NK this sunday nerve gas trials on family's and death by poisoned cabbage?
the guy who reproted it said at the time he felt the family and its kids deserved to be nerve gassed as they were enemy's of the regime :(
the observer is a fairly left wing paper.
basically going up agaist NK would be like fighting the japanese in ww11 I doubt many POWS will be taken the entire country is brainwashed :(

[Seiyuuki]

Seiyuuki wrote:

Ummm...last time I check, the KOREANS still prefer to resolve this problem for themselves.

...

If things only were that simple as little Seiyuuki exspects them to be...

When was the last time you checked, Seiyuuki? The last Korean war? (The Chinese intervened there, didn't they?)
Anyway, I don't think the Chinese will ask the South Koreans. And the North Koreans will be happy for anyone, who could interfere with the US.

Tell me, when was the last time you were on the peninula little kitsune?

Please, do refrain from becoming an idiot by reducing the situation on the peninsula to something like "simple."

This isn't the Cold War and this isn't the 1950s' either.

[oldsoak]

The Chinese are embarassed by NK. Lets face it, China wants to be seen as a successful, powerful communist state ( with a big bank balance and all the trappings of a good , erm.., capitalist, economy ) - being the backer of a pariah state is not amusing to them. Yes they have a treaty with NK, but it dates back to the cold war. The worlds changed. China trades with the US, the EU and anyone else it has diplomatic relations with and has a nicely growing economy . They wont let NK start a crisis that will lead to war - it wont suit them. It only suits them to keep NK going because its a thorn in the side of the US. The last thing the Chinese want is that thorn to get too poisonous.

[sealgz]

very simple, china will not happy with NK build their nu Bomb, cause if some noe near you with a armed nu bomb, will you love it? or can enjoy your life?

Why we will help them to build a bomb if some days they will use it to force us.

In my personal ,I do not like KIM so much cause he put his people in the hell, so many Chinese even hate KIM, he is a crazy guy.

[duck]

Which Kim? I know at least "big Kim", "small Kim" and a few other Kims.

[MolliG]

I've seen pictures of Pyongyang's city life, what do they do for fun other then abducting South Koreans and Japanese?.

They visit the grave of Kim Il Sung and have some woman act to them to get them to cry (she has two minutes to do so). Then they sing and dance, then they go home watch looping videos of military parades. Then the kids will go off to school in the morning and learn how the USA invaded the North and started the Korean War in an attempt to invade the whole of Asia, but they got beaten back and decided to just occupy the South. Then if their unlucky someone will find out that one of their grandparents broke the law decades ago, so they get carted off to a prison camp where their mothers die from their insides being burnt away by poisoned cabbage leaves, and their fathers are tortured for days on end for no reason at all, and then finally they get shoved into a glass chamber, naked, where scientists peer over them as different types of gas and chemicals are pumped in to see how effective they are at killing. Just like the Nazis did back in the '40s.

But there won't be an invasion or attempt at regime change as the South don't want war, they just want to keep it as it is, as mainly they don't want thousands of North Koreans flooding the border et cetera.

:|

Anyone else see the programme last night on BBC 2?

[Nizark]

Which Kim? I know at least "big Kim", "small Kim" and a few other Kims.

Kim Chee is ok...I prefer Kim Basinger more though :lol:

[Marxist203]

I was chatting to this chinese guy who has come to study at my uni, and he was banging on about how China would have to back NK (militarily!) if the West decided to take it out. I found this hard to believe, although this guy is studying economics and not international relations like me but I would still be inclined to take note of his opinion.

It's a shame the chinese contigent on this site has disappeared, but what do you guys think?

n.b.: I was swigging out of a Vodka bottle at the time so it might have been a hallucination ;)

Well, I think the reason China "has to" back North Korea is because of the mutual defense treaties they've signed. You cant rag on them, thats like bitching at the US for backing Luxembourg in the event of a Morrocan invasion.

Seeing as Luxembourg is in NATO and all...

[ogukuo72]

China defending North Korea will make as much sense as the US defending Taiwan. Both are historical legacies, tied more to the respective powers' prestidge (and thus perceived power) than anything else.

Purely in terms of national interests, I can see very little value for China to come to the aid of North Korea, if North Korea continues to behave in an irrational and irresponsible manner. The Chinese government leaders are not fools. They know that they have more to lose by going to war with the US and South Korea (and maybe Japan), than gain by defending a bankrupt North Korea. Unfortunately, they might feel bound by national prestidge to do so. They might also feel threatened by the flexing of US military power so close to their border, and may feel compelled to act to maintain a buffer zone.

The situation is similar with Taiwan. If Taiwan acted irresponsibly by provoking China needlessly, there is little in terms of national interests that would justify US intervention. Yet, the US may very well feel compelled to intervene - again for reasons of prestidge and to calm nerves in Korea and Japan by demonstrating that it would defend key allies.

For China and the US, both have great interests in maintaining the status quo. If the two sides go to war, both would only incur great cost and damage without gaining much benefit. Let's hope that North Korea and Taiwan don't rock the boat.

[hood]

Concerning the Chinese ban, I was getting hacker attempts and flood attacks 2-3 times a week. It was getting rediculous. Each time, it would be a different IP address range inside China from totally different parts of the country. Eventually I started reading around that hacker attempts from China were very common and that there's a huge blacklist of all the IP's that are assigned to China which I added to the ban list. It almost knocked the site offline several times. Since I banned China's IP range, I haven't had a single hacker attack. Concerning attacking North Korea, I think our military commanders learned their lesson from the last time. We'd be in constant communication with the Chinese as to where our forces could go to, and where the Chinese troops would take over. Who knows.. maybe a joint Chinese/US military operation? :) That's probably asking too much.

[hood]

Personally, I think the Israelis are going to bomb NK's nuclear plants during the middle of the night one of these days, as they're quite good at that type of thing.

[ogukuo72]

Concerning the Chinese ban, I was getting hacker attempts and flood attacks 2-3 times a week. It was getting rediculous. Each time, it would be a different IP address range inside China from totally different parts of the country. Eventually I started reading around that hacker attempts from China were very common and that there's a huge blacklist of all the IP's that are assigned to China which I added to the ban list. It almost knocked the site offline several times. Since I banned China's IP range, I haven't had a single hacker attack. Concerning attacking North Korea, I think our military commanders learned their lesson from the last time. We'd be in constant communication with the Chinese as to where our forces could go to, and where the Chinese troops would take over. Who knows.. maybe a joint Chinese/US military operation? :) That's probably asking too much.

Haha! :lol: It would make a lot of sense, if politics or the hardliners/conservatives in China and the US don't get in the way!

[UoUo]

Personally, I think the Israelis are going to bomb NK's nuclear plants during the middle of the night one of these days, as they're quite good at that type of thing.

Hm...i think it more likely that we will bomb the iranian nuclear plants.

[wulfstan]

Leave NK to starve itself into revolution. Once those guys who hate the west and the US in particular so much see the rest of the world they will be blown away by the level of isolation they have endured over the last few decades.

The BBC did a shocking documentary about it the other day, and i would have no part of a war against them, it would be total bloodshed in a way the Iraq war wasn't. The N Koreans could show the Iraqi's the true meaning of armed resistance!

On the BBC show it revealed that SK sends the North billions of dollars to keep it ticking over, because more than anything else the last thing they want is 22m NK's coming to the South looking for jobs and a better life. It would be East/West Germany on a massive scale.

I saw a show where the official govt minder sent to show a journalist around the capital didn't know that Elvis was dead, and refused to believe the journo, accusing him of lying to trick her!

[Bootneck]

If we're really in the business of ridding the world of evil regimes (which I'm all for), there's none more obvious and deserving than North Korea's. As a father, this makes me just sick to read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,1136483,00.html



Revealed: the gas chamber horror of North Korea's gulag
A series of shocking personal testimonies is now shedding light on Camp 22 - one of the country's most horrific secrets

Antony Barnett
Sunday February 1, 2004
The Observer

In the remote north-eastern corner of North Korea, close to the border of Russia and China, is Haengyong. Hidden away in the mountains, this remote town is home to Camp 22 - North Korea's largest concentration camp, where thousands of men, women and children accused of political crimes are held.

Now, it is claimed, it is also where thousands die each year and where prison guards stamp on the necks of babies born to prisoners to kill them.

Over the past year harrowing first-hand testimonies from North Korean defectors have detailed execution and torture, and now chilling evidence has emerged that the walls of Camp 22 hide an even more evil secret: gas chambers where horrific chemical experiments are conducted on human beings.

Witnesses have described watching entire families being put in glass chambers and gassed. They are left to an agonising death while scientists take notes. The allegations offer the most shocking glimpse so far of Kim Jong-il's North Korean regime.

Kwon Hyuk, who has changed his name, was the former military attaché at the North Korean Embassy in Beijing. He was also the chief of management at Camp 22. In the BBC's This World documentary, to be broadcast tonight, Hyuk claims he now wants the world to know what is happening.

'I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber,' he said. 'The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing.'

Hyuk has drawn detailed diagrams of the gas chamber he saw. He said: 'The glass chamber is sealed airtight. It is 3.5 metres wide, 3m long and 2.2m high_ [There] is the injection tube going through the unit. Normally, a family sticks together and individual prisoners stand separately around the corners. Scientists observe the entire process from above, through the glass.'

He explains how he had believed this treatment was justified. 'At the time I felt that they thoroughly deserved such a death. Because all of us were led to believe that all the bad things that were happening to North Korea were their fault; that we were poor, divided and not making progress as a country.

'It would be a total lie for me to say I feel sympathetic about the children dying such a painful death. Under the society and the regime I was in at the time, I only felt that they were the enemies. So I felt no sympathy or pity for them at all.'

His testimony is backed up by Soon Ok-lee, who was imprisoned for seven years. 'An officer ordered me to select 50 healthy female prisoners,' she said. 'One of the guards handed me a basket full of soaked cabbage, told me not to eat it but to give it to the 50 women. I gave them out and heard a scream from those who had eaten them. They were all screaming and vomiting blood. All who ate the cabbage leaves started violently vomiting blood and screaming with pain. It was hell. In less than 20 minutes they were quite dead.'

Defectors have smuggled out documents that appear to reveal how methodical the chemical experiments were. One stamped 'top secret' and 'transfer letter' is dated February 2002. The name of the victim was Lin Hun-hwa. He was 39. The text reads: 'The above person is transferred from ... camp number 22 for the purpose of human experimentation of liquid gas for chemical weapons.'

Kim Sang-hun, a North Korean human rights worker, says the document is genuine. He said: 'It carries a North Korean format, the quality of paper is North Korean and it has an official stamp of agencies involved with this human experimentation. A stamp they cannot deny. And it carries names of the victim and where and why and how these people were experimented [on].'

The number of prisoners held in the North Korean gulag is not known: one estimate is 200,000, held in 12 or more centres. Camp 22 is thought to hold 50,000.

Most are imprisoned because their relatives are believed to be critical of the regime. Many are Christians, a religion believed by Kim Jong-il to be one of the greatest threats to his power. According to the dictator, not only is a suspected dissident arrested but also three generations of his family are imprisoned, to root out the bad blood and seed of dissent.

With North Korea trying to win concessions in return for axing its nuclear programme, campaigners want human rights to be a part of any deal. Richard Spring, Tory foreign affairs spokesman, is pushing for a House of Commons debate on human rights in North Korea.

'The situation is absolutely horrific,' Spring said. 'It is totally unacceptable by any norms of civilised society. It makes it even more urgent to convince the North Koreans that procuring weapons of mass destruction must end, not only for the security of the region but for the good of their own population.'

Mervyn Thomas, chief executive of Christian Solidarity Worldwide, said: 'For too long the horrendous suffering of the people of North Korea, especially those imprisoned in unspeakably barbaric prison camps, has been met with silence ... It is imperative that the international community does not continue to turn a blind eye to these atrocities which should weigh heavily on the world's conscience.'

[Aegirsson]

Ask yourself, What would China GAIN by supporting North Korea in a conflict with the US?

Answer: Nothing but PAIN


Various european countries have taken position for North Korea.
You are saying that China has no interest in Korea? Are you stupid?
If the whole Korea gets dominated by a US capitalist regime it would be a nightmare for China, Russia, and european countries like France, Germany and others...

Somes are again falling in a stupid "we are stronger, trougher, mighter than you! nah!", but war wouldn't solve anything, we are not speaking of a "mighty muslim dictator who is a great threat to the world after 10 years of embargo", we are speaking of super-powers, with real war capabilities.
What do you expect if the war explodes? USA to bring a super soldier; captain armerica? who handle 1 million soldier with an hand while drinking coca cola with the other?

This pseudo-war between North Korea and South Korea, only exists because of the USA, who are pissing in their pants to see Korea reunited, taking position for asian countries/ex-communists forces, and the trans-siberian reatached to the trans-korean/japan.
This would mean no more USA contigent in Asia, and far less exchanges.

Sorry if i made mistakes.

[cheukkin]

sorry for my englist first. As a retired PLA I am, age 68. I think we alway prepare the war and love the peace. We know american is strong, but they know us not weak. read the histroy book and you know something., thinking korea and vietnam. Amerian alway thought we would not fighting the war beside us for certain and certain reasons, we alway silence, but everytime we did fight and made american upsad , don't be a General Douglas MacArthur and ask youself, how well you know china....

Nothing is change, we dont like people setting fire in front of my house as you did. Fight or not fight, not from your mouth, but the nature! protect yourself.!

[Mark Sman]

There are only two things which could get the U.S. to invade North Korea.

1. A North Korean invasion of South Korea. The U.S.'s first reaction will be to logistically back the South Korean forces, and support them with air power, conventional missle strikes, complete naval supremacy and other stuff like sattelite recon. In all likelyhood the South Korean army willbe able to handle the North Korean army, at least on the defensive. Especially as U.S. airpower ramps up and makes movement behind the NK lines increasingly difficult.

2. A North Korean nuclear missle strike anywhere in the region except China. Which we would let them handle as long as they stopped at the SK border.

In the event of A NK attack into SK I believe China would immediately cut off all logistical and monetary support to NK. Probaly close the border. If the U.S. didn't commit large numbers of ground troops, which I don't think would be needed, the Chinese would probably be happy to see old fruitcake Kim Il Jong removed.

They do not want to see western troops on their southern border, but they can do business with the South Koreans.

In any event I believe a combination of Chinese and South Korean diplomacy is eventually going to bring a bloodless Chinese supported coup that removes Kim Il Jong. The Chinese need this lunatic F'ing around on their southern border with nukes not at all.

Any event that brings a land war between NK and SK will be a brutal event that probaly means something on the order of several million dead. The civillian starvation in the North alone could only be worsened to a point beyond comprehension.

One thing which I think many people forget in this equation is that they think of a potential war on the peninsula as between U.S. forces and NK forces.

Actually the South Korean army is well supplied, well trained, motivated and ready. The South Koreans fought very bravely last time, the problem was that most of their units had no training and were very poorly equipped, especially early in the war. That is not the case now at all.

[Mark Sman]

Also I see that some how history is being rewritten here on the US involvement in South Korea.

On June 25, 1950, North Korea invaded south of the 38th parallel into the Republic of Korea. The United Nations' security council issued a resolution that condemned the invasion, called on North Korea to withdraw, asked U.N. members to help repel the attack and restore international peace. On July 7th the U.N. requested that the U.S. take overall command, eventually leading units from 21 different countries in the next three years.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/korea/large/week1/kw_3_1.htm

True at first the NK units pushed the SK and US defenders into the Pusan perimeter. But on September 15th the US Marines landed at Pusan, and by October UN forces were across the 38th parallel and pushing for Pyongyang.

Basically in like 3 months the NK advance was halted and turned into a full retreat.

Only the invasion of Chinese forces in early November kept the North Koreans from defeat.

UN forces were forced to withdraw from Pyongyang on December 5th. As the UN forces pulled back, thousands of North Korean civilians voted with their feet and fled south.

Seoul fell to the communists for the second time in January of 1951 but was taken back by UN forces in March. The South Korean capital changed hands four times during the war.

By 1952 it was obvious that the line had stabilized and neither side was going to overwhelm the other. The fighting continued with patrols, artillery duels and small attacks.

As the fight raged on Pork Chop Hill soldiers could look over and see the searchlight that marked the negotiation area at Panmunjom.

An Armistice was signed and the fighting stopped at 10 a.m. July 27, 1953, two and a half hours too late for Sergeant Harold Cross, the last American soldier to die in the Korean War.

The Korean War left the land devastated both north and south. The United Nations estimated Korean civilian casualties in the millions. Homes and businesses had been laid waste everywhere, and the peninsula was still divided. The armistice that ended the war noted that a formal peace agreement was still needed, but to date no such agreement has been negotiated.

Casualty Figures - United Nations Forces
These numbers and a brief explanation of them are from http://www.koreanwar-educator.org/

Australia - 265 dead; 1,387 wounded & missing
Belgium - 97 dead; 355 wounded & missing
Canada - 516 dead; 1,235 wounded & missing
Colombia - 140 dead; 517 wounded & missing
Ethiopia - 120 dead; 536 wounded & missing
France - 288 dead; 836 wounded & missing
Greece - 169 dead; 545 wounded & missing
Netherlands - 111 dead; 593 wounded & missing
New Zealand - 31 dead; 78 wounded & missing
Philippines - 92 dead; 356 wounded & missing
Republic of Korea - 416,004 dead; 428,568 wounded & missing
South Africa - 20 dead; 16 wounded & missing
Thailand - 114 dead; 799 wounded & missing
Turkey - 717 dead
United States - 36,568 dead; 106,978 wounded & missing
United Kingdom - 1,078 dead; 2,674 wounded & missing

Casualty Figures - Communist Forces
China - 1,000,000 (plus) killed, wounded & missing
North Korea - 520,000 wounded & missing

According to recent Department of Defense statistics, a total of 36,568 Americans died while serving in the Korean War. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of misinformation about the casualty figures for the Korean War. This is caused by the fact that casualty statistics recorded by the US government for that time period are generally of a global nature. One frequently sees the casualty figures for the war at 54,246.

[Bulkowski]

If true, I think we have the theatre for WW3 :|

[cheukkin]

Not likely to War , Alll problems can be solved by real encourage, care and patient. not by your fist to conquer other.

[7eveN]

Maybe a WW3 is what people need to wake up.

[hulaku]

Maybe a WW3 is what people need to wake up.

You do realise the last post on this thread before yours was 6 years ago?

[7eveN]

i'm a necrophiliac.

[kalerab]

i'm a necrophiliac.

How did you even find this thread, anyway?

[Ordie]

I was chatting to this chinese guy who has come to study at my uni, and he was banging on about how China would have to back NK (militarily!) if the West decided to take it out. I found this hard to believe, although this guy is studying economics and not international relations like me but I would still be inclined to take note of his opinion.

It's a shame the chinese contigent on this site has disappeared, but what do you guys think?

n.b.: I was swigging out of a Vodka bottle at the time so it might have been a hallucination ;)

THe NK wants to have relations with the US as a means to hedge against the PRC.
Since nuclear threat is their only commodity, they will continue to act up.

THey hate the 6 party talks and they hate the dependency of China. They would much rather deal with the US directly.

[7eveN]

How did you even find this thread, anyway?

was looking for KPA pictures.

[SlowMan]

Terms of Chinese intervention treaty changed over the years.

1. Originally, Chinese would automatically jump in if NK went war for any reason.
2. Later, it was revised in the 90s only for the case of NK being attacked first, after China established a formal diplomatic relationship with South Korea and South Korea went on to become one of China's top trading partner and the biggest foreign investor.
3. Now, Kim Jong Il wants to change the treaty again, so that Chinese could intervene only if NK asks for it in the event of war; this is because even Kim Jong Il doesn't trust Chinese anymore, and fear that Chinese would collaborate with Americans to attack NK from the rear, remove him and install a puppet regime in his place if the war breaks out.

[caksz]

I believe NK is a buffer zone ,in event of NK gonna be overruns ... china will cross the border and secure Pyongyang , ask for peace treaty and revert the border to the one before the war and install new government , maybe a government like current china. If they let North Fall they need more troop to secure vast new border :O

[cn_habs]

Are posters even aware what are the dominant indutries across tha Yalu River?

Learn more about China. Period .

[canister]

If the NK invade south,china won't let it happen first by replace the kim goverment with a more sound one,if the us allied with SK invade north,it will leave china no choice but back NK with all of its power,a US puppet along the border cannot be tolerant,for china,NK is a son of bitch,but it is ours son of bitch.

[Confuse]

THe NK wants to have relations with the US as a means to hedge against the PRC.
Since nuclear threat is their only commodity, they will continue to act up.

THey hate the 6 party talks and they hate the dependency of China. They would much rather deal with the US directly.


this is pretty much the reality that during the 6 party talks people were saying that the PRC isn't doing enough to pressure NK like it was a pawn client state when in fact it isn't, NK doesn't like anyone, that the whole point of the juche ideology being a paranoid one and being dependent on china is only a factor after little kim took over, kim il sung sided with the soviets and wasn't in china's camp during the cold war

IMO kim jang nam (exile oldest son) should just kill off his younger brother after daddy kim dies and take over and open up to market reforms (something china has been trying to tell NK to do for years but the daddy kim paranoid of losing control of the army to rivals in the NK elite stops it from happening) ..the china NK is a buffer state and a pain in the ass but still better than having thousands of US troops right on the border

[Confuse]

If the NK invade south,china won't let it happen first by replace the kim goverment with a more sound one,if the us allied with SK invade north,it will leave china no choice but back NK with all of its power,a US puppet along the border cannot be tolerant,for china,NK is a son of bitch,but it is ours son of bitch.



same as korean war 60 years ago...they didn't support NK in it's bid to take over the south with soviet blessing, china was left to pick up the pieces of soviet proxy war and entered to at least keep a buffer zone... if there was a hundred kilometer or so buffer state between the yalu river and the armistice line was set there that might be where NK and SK divide today, but the push to go right up to the yalu river not only removed the buffer if put the PRC in great threat of invasion (very real, since it's just 1 year after ROC retreat to taiwan, ROC counter invasion with US help was a big possibility)

[SlowMan]

china will cross the border and secure Pyongyang
And face Kim Jong Il's 1.2 million man strong army. Even the US doesn't feel like invading NK because a war with NK would produce a WW-I level casualty for the US; ditto for China.


ask for peace treatyChina will not get it, as ROK military will push its troops up all the way to Yalu and Tumen river if NK regime collapses. There is no compromise on this from the South's side, since this is the border they see and is fully willing to battle China if their territorial definition is somehow compromised by China. ROK Army has the nickname "Manchurian Invasion Force" for this reason, as ROK Army has been historically designed to battle 1.5 million communist troops.

Beside, NK isn't Taiwan, China never claimed NK to be a part of China and recognized full NK sovereignty since 1948, so China can't really justify its occupation of NK under international politics, and there is one major power willing to make any kind of sacrifice to make sure this doesn't happen.

The only organization that would be legally authorized to occupy NK after Kim dynasty's collapse would be UN(Acting as American proxy), which would put the fate of NK's future on the NK popular vote after a 5 to 10 year of stabilization period under UN administration. Then it would be up to NK residents to decide if they want to be an independent nation, merge with ROK, or merge with China.

China's hope of absorbing NK is to run TV ads preaching why becoming the citizen of PRC would be beneficial to them during this UN administration period, but this would be a hard sell because even North Koreans dislike China, as well as a counter campaign from ROK.

[Confuse]

And face Kim Jong Il's 1.2 million man strong army. Even the US doesn't feel like invading NK because a war with NK would produce a WW-I level casualty for the US; ditto for China.

China will not get it, as ROK military will push its troops up all the way to Yalu and Tumen river if NK regime collapses. There is no compromise on this from the South's side, since this is the border they see and is fully willing to battle China if their territorial definition is somehow compromised by China. ROK Army has the nickname "Manchurian Invasion Force" for this reason, as ROK Army has been historically designed to battle 1.5 million communist troops.

Beside, NK isn't Taiwan, China never claimed NK to be a part of China and recognized full NK sovereignty since 1948, so China can't really justify its occupation of NK under international politics, and there is one major power willing to make any kind of sacrifice to make sure this doesn't happen.

The only organization that would be legally authorized to occupy NK after Kim dynasty's collapse would be UN(Acting as American proxy), which would put the fate of NK's future on the NK popular vote after a 5 to 10 year of stabilization period under UN administration. Then it would be up to NK residents to decide if they want to be an independent nation, merge with ROK, or merge with China.

China's hope of absorbing NK is to run TV ads preaching why becoming the citizen of PRC would be beneficial to them during this UN administration period, but this would be a hard sell because even North Koreans dislike China, as well as a counter campaign from ROK.



the US doesn't invade because it would be too risky for SK civilians in the line of fire, also picking up the pieces of a collapsed NK financially and socially in terms of refugees is something SK doesn't want, it won't mind a proxy puppet NK dictator controlled by SK for cheap labor not subject to SK laws and costs for the time being, over a much long drawn out period if NK gets closer in economy then a FULL reunification will happen on SK terms (but that won't happen financially for decades)

[SlowMan]

the US doesn't invade because it would be too risky for SK civilians in the line of fire
Clinton administration was ready to bomb NK nuclear facilities back in 1993, knowing the full consequence of this surgical strike.

Regardless, the only acceptable occupation force of NK is UN. All China wants from the US is that US forces not cross the DMZ without Chinese agreement. UN occupation of NK is probably the only solution acceptable to all parties involved.

[ayanami_tard]

NK have become increasingly a liability to china and the world

though the poor country does have it's strategic value(it is the only country stands between mother russia and the great US-allies ring,stretching from japan all the way to australia)

i really hope the chinese topple the current regime and replace it with a more docile,pro chinese(obviously) and more tolerant to western world

[Antey]

First and foremost:
There WON'T be any MOVE by NK WITHOUT Chinese approval.
China could kill NK in an instant - simply by opening the borders... but they don't do it. Why ? Because in all probability that could possibly initiate conflict which isn't in China's interest, and even if it didn't it would in the long term eliminate one of tensions points in area, leaving basically PRC vs Taiwan.
In case NK starts to play dirty beyond Chinese approval, opening the borders and, say, 0,5 mln "volunteers" may return the courtesy of Korean refugees...