Britsh Army to replace the Browning.

[Gringo]

I've read in the Mail that the British Army is going to replace the Browning Hi-power 9mm to the Glock 17.
Has anyone else heard of this?

[MolliG]

Nothing on the MoD and DPA sites.

[oldsoak]

I would have thought we'd go Sig

[Dijital_Majik]

Sigs would probably turn out too expensive, but would probably be a better choice IMHO.

[kutter]

I thinks they've already adopted the SIG. I read an article in SWAT magazine (Feb. '96) reviewing the L-85A1 and it mentioned that the SIG P228 was one of the arms adopted by the British army.

[California Joe]

Hmmmmm maybe we should just ask Royal.

*dialing Batphone*

[Dijital_Majik]

AFAIK, the 228 is only in the hands of SF, but i could be wrong.

[marktigger]

229 is used by the RMP close proection teams
226/228 have been used by SF

[California Joe]

229 is used by the RMP close proection teams
226/228 have been used by SF

Gee, are you sure? Did you read that somewhere? ;)

[Royal]

I havn't heard anything about the L9A1 being replaced. It's old but reliable and most of the stock has been refurbished over the past 5 years or so.

If the 229 is in service with CP teams (rather than on trails, as some of the Glocks have been) I'm not aware of a designation - It can't be the L108A1 (next in the Sig series, 'cos that's the Minimi ;) ).

[California Joe]

See, he has a Batphone.

[James]

http://www.imageshack.us/files/web.JPG

[Salty Dog]

http://www.imageshack.us/files/web.JPG

damn james, that's cutting edge weaponry right there! :P

[ogukuo72]

http://www.imageshack.us/files/web.JPG

damn james, that's cutting edge weaponry right there! :P

One-Shot-Stop (OSS) advocates should love this weapon!

I can just imagine them saying: "The 9mm automatics lack stopping power. Let's go back to the old Webley Mk VI for its reliability and stopping power."

[James]

http://www.imageshack.us/files/musket.JPG

[marktigger]

the 229 is in service with the CP teams. Saw them in Iraq.
It's even appeared on 'Redcaps' on the Bosnia episode :D

[George W. Bush]

Stupid. Semi-automatics haven't changed much since Browning made the HiPower.

[ogukuo72]

Stupid. Semi-automatics haven't changed much since Browning made the HiPower.

Perhaps in the overall concept and layout, there hasn't been much change, but in terms of specifics of design, things has changed a lot since then.

Many semi-automatics designs introduced in the past twenty years, such as the SIGs, the Glocks and the HK USPs, are significantly lighter than the Browning Hi-Power. This is a result of new materials being used other than steel.

They are also usually more accurate. This includes the FN HP Mk3's, which would be significantly more accurate than the GP 1935's. This is a result finer manufacturing tolerances in most cases, and a result of new barrel and rifling design in some of the designs from reputable manufactuers (e.g. polygonal rifling in HK pistols).

Other design improvements like double-action locks and 'drop-safe' automatic safeties also generally made these pistols better and safer to use.

Minor improvements like ambidextrous catches, better grips, also tend to make life better.

[Gringo]

by Christopher Leake

It has served the British Army in every conflict for 60 years - but the Browning 9mm pistol is due for it's honourable discharge.
The Army says the veteran sidearm, still used by 24,000 soldiers, has to go. It wants the gun favoured by the SAS - the Glock 17 - to replace it.
The Belgian-made Browning is regarded by traditionalists as one of the most successful military weapons in the world.
But the older guns have a fatal tendency to jam. This, according to insiders, was tragically the case in Belfast in 1988 when Corporals Derek Wood and Robert Howes were trapped by a lynch mob, stripped and murdered.
Soldiers in the first Gulf War reported problems with the Browning. And in the recent Iraq conflict, Sergeant Steve Roberts - whose death sparked a row over body armour - had complained of his pistol jamming.
The Austrian-made Glock is considered safer because of it's built-in safety catch, which is released only when the trigger is pulled. This virtually rules out accidental firing, which the Browning as its safety catch has to be manually engaged.
The Glock, with a 17-round magazine, carries four more bullets then the Browning and is accurate up to 40 metres - ten more than the Belgian weapon.
This, says the Army, makes it ideal for troops to fire at a moment's notice. An Army insider said last night: 'The Browning is showing signs of wear. It has been a great weapon but we need to replace it with a more modern and effective pistol. The Glock is what we want'
Army insiders say the replacement costs could be as little as £1 million.
A Ministery of Defence spokesman insisted last night that there were no plans for a switch-over.
But a senior Army officor said the Browning would go to a foreign army in a cutprice deal.
And Army weapons advisors told The Mail on Sunday: 'The Browning is out-of-date and the Glock is what will replace it. That's the deal that will be done.'

[marktigger]

god help us if it the glock.
The reason the army has difficulty with the Browning s it doesn't give soldiers who are expected to carry them enough training or experience with them. Currently there is limited pistol training because there is a shortage of 9mm ammo and has been for the last few years.
I've fired the Glock 17 on the range and did not like at all. And I would contest you assertion that the Glock is the SAS weapon of choice SAS have choice to a certain extent and use a variety of pistols including Sigs and USP's as well as Glock and mostly I've heard the name sig in the frame as pistol of choice. The RMP trialed a variety of 9mm pistols to replace the Browning including Glock and rejected them in favour of Sigs.
The high profile ND's of the glock give me cause for concern if officers of the royal protection squad of the Met, SO19 have ha ND's thease are experienced firearms officers with a higher standard of training than most squaddies will get with a pistol. The problems i hear the PSNI are experiencing as well would lead me to believe the safety systems on the glock are not as good as they make out. The trigger pull safety is the design flaw in the Glock if the trigger is pulled the safety disengages so if the trigger snags on anything it safety disengages?
As the Sig is already in service I would say it would be more logical to extend the issue of it than introduce a new weapon system.

[George W. Bush]

I don't understand the ND comment. Everyone is taught to keep their finger on the frame of the pistol until they are ready to shoot.

I can understand how a person may involuntarily put their index finger in the trigger guard during drawing in a high stress/speed situation but that can be eliminated with muscle memory.

So in conclusion, those people who are having NDs haven't trained their "auto-pilot" yet or are just plain dumb.

[Ian H]

True. I've read of a royal protection police officer who had a ND whilst apparently cleaning his pistol, a Glock, which of course to strip down you must pull the trigger on. But then why would you be stripping a loaded weapon? It doesn't make sense to me, but then I have no practical experience and will happily bow to someone who does.

[marktigger]

The P226 is in service as the L105A1, the P226K is the L106A1 and the P228 is the L107A1

Royal posted the above on a discussion on sigs

As to ND's some have been down to people mucking about and what i'm currently hearing is there is alot of ND's in PSNI (but then i Know of RUC officers who had ND's with ruger revolvers. )Training is one thing but design has a part to play and the glocks trigger safety IMHO is not good enough for inexperienced users ie most soldiers.

Muscle memory wangchung requires training and practice and as I've already stated the British army does not give sufficient training in pistols to ordinary soldiers.

[George W. Bush]

Anyone familiar with British army training? Are soldiers taught to walk around with their hipowers cocked and locked? When they are in combat do they carry it cocked with the manual safety off?

I think a manual safety can make people feel safe but in reality it can't replace proper training. I wouldn't want to be fumbling with a thumb safety (no matter how fast I can disengage it) when the crap hits the fan.

So anyway I think the Glock is perfect for military use. It has two redundant safeties which prevent the spring-loaded firing pin from flying forward unless the trigger is pulled and also has a trigger safety (much like a grip safety).

Glocks are nice shooters too. It's no race gun but they can shoot nice groups in the proper hands.

[marktigger]

I have only ever carried an L9 with it 'made ready-safety catch on'in iraq we usually carry with them 'loaded'.


Given the flap holster we have drawing fast isn't an option either.

I hope SASC rejects the glock and either goes for the sig 226 or the HK USP.

[Argyll]

Well I can only speak about my experience with the 9 milly,we only carried it when carrying out "Plain clothes dities" in NI,and we did a fair bit of training with it prior to going overseas.
However it was not in my Regiments SOP's to have a round chambered,as it leads to ND's such as Mek stated,the only time a round was chambered was when you were about to use it!
It was normally loaded with the 10 round mag tucked into the waistband at the back or if you were very very lucky you got the shoulder holster,most of the times I kept it in a Parka pocket I wore on most of these duites.

Other units had other SOP's .......they'll perhaps share their views on it?

Oddly enough my buds in Baghdad have Glocks as their sidearms

[Royal]

It has served the British Army in every conflict for 60 years - but the Browning 9mm pistol is due for it's honourable discharge.
The Army says the veteran sidearm, still used by 24,000 soldiers, has to go. It wants the gun favoured by the SAS - the Glock 17 - to replace it.

Mr Leake, as one would expect from a journalist from the Mail, is talking through his arse. The Glock (any Glock) is not and never has been the weapon of choice for any part of the UK armed forces. Yes it has been trailed by elements. No it has not been adopted.


I can understand how a person may involuntarily put their index finger in the trigger guard during drawing in a high stress/speed situation but that can be eliminated with muscle memory.

So in conclusion, those people who are having NDs haven't trained their "auto-pilot" yet or are just plain dumb.

As Mark has pointed out to develop 'muscle memory' requires an inordinate ammount of practice/range time, something that the British (or for that matter, US) armed forces do not have for every Joe with a pistol.

Pistols are carried for a number of reasons; covert carry in civvies, discreet carry in uniform, personal protection (overt and covert) secondary weapon for AFV/CSW crew, CP duties or even for 'kudos' - in some cases an officer/NCO will carry a pistol to meetings as a status symbol (to show their importance to the locals). Most of the above do not have sufficient training to develop muscle memory.


Anyone familiar with British army training? Are soldiers taught to walk around with their hipowers cocked and locked? When they are in combat do they carry it cocked with the manual safety off?

Define 'in combat' - when 'in combat' would you want to use a pistol rather than a rifle? As Mark and Argyll have pointed out different units on different jobs have different SOP's. As a rule of thumb (for line units) they're carried loaded and made ready when a threat presents itself.


It's no race gun but they can shoot nice groups in the proper hands.

Anything with a straight barrel can shoot nice groups in the proper hands (including James's flint lock).

Although personally I like the Glock, I think it would be a poor choice as a replacement for the L9A1 (with the current standard of SAA training in the army (and the airforce and navy for that matter)). On the other hand the PLCE holster should have been replaced before it was issued and the prick that designed it publicly bayonetted for his idiocy.

[marktigger]

On the other hand the PLCE holster should have been replaced before it was issued and the prick that designed it publicly bayonetted for his idiocy.

Agree totally interesting that many people who have to carry pistols regularly have had to acquire their own (for many reasons though main one I've encountered is unavailability of issue holster). In my case on return from Iraq and with limited funds got a german issue holster which is thumb break and light years ahead of the PLCE one.

[Chops]

Thought I'd pipe up on this one to add to what Mark, Argyll, Royal etc are saying. I believe the Glock would be a poor choice for issue mainly because of two factors- the NDs and the huge time and financial cost of retraining.

When NSW Police adopted the .40 Glock in 1998, they had a mighty effort on their hands retraining it's officers from revolvers to Glocks. Some say it's an easier weapon to transition to if you're a revolver user since it has no manual safety. I believe the opposite is true also- transitioning from an automatic with a manual safety to one without. It requires a whole new set of range and safety protocols. This is not something which can be accomplished overnight.

NSWPF for instance originally planned a five day transition programme which was cut to three from lack of resources and funding. Once the officer completed his/her three days, they were then only required to attend their annual two hour live fire range qualification. A farcical situation and one not a milion miles away from the opportunities in the Australian Army for non SF to practise with their issue sidearms. I would imagine that the non SF British Army to be much the same. Handgun training just doesn't get the resources.

As far as NDs, as I've said on another post regarding the 226K, there seems to be more of an issue with the Glock. NSW SPG and Queensland Police SERT officers (both highly trained- many SASR CT standard- police tactical groups) have experienced NDs when they were using Glocks- although NSWPF call them UDs- unintentional discharges :roll: . There was a number of range incidents where officers managed to discharge their weapon as they reholstered, often into their own legs!

The Australian Army also saw a fair number of NDs in Timor including one fatality whilst using the Steyr F88. Diggers reported that it wasn't so much the weapon as training levels which had fallen due to funding restraints and operational tempo.

In closing what I'm trying to say here is that the introduction of a new weapon type- for that is what the Glock is- is that training is the key. With soldiers receiving minimal opportunities to practise and a no doubt accelerated training programme, the Glock is just too much of a system change. The SIG or even the USP would be a much better choice as the controls are much easier to transition to for a BHP experienced user.

rgds

c

[Mark Sman]

The Glock is a great weapon. I carried one concealed for almost ten years. Model 19 not 17. Training is important with all weapons. Accidental discharge would always be operator error in the case of the Glock.

If you are not going to train the people you issues these too, you might want to look for another solution. If you will train them properly this is an effective short range weapon.

I don't carry a Glock anymore. I switched to a Kimber Tactical Pro II last month. Not something I would recommend for any army or anyone who is not willing to practice practice practice.

[Mark Sman]

First 50 rounds out of the Kimber Tactical Pro II. Rapid fire from 7 yards. Basically you draw and empty the seven round mag and reload as quickly as possible.

Looks like my second group was a little low. p-)

http://illuminationline.com/photos/osama1.jpg

[marktigger]

I've been using the Browning for 17 years including carrying it in Northern Ireland. I did my first formal training, weapon test and APWT in 2002 at RTMC.
Between 3 units I was with only Lip service was payed to the Pistol why because everyone is scared of it and they are scared because no one takes the time to teach it properly or to teach people how to shoot it properly.

[Gringo]

I suppose the glock would be good for the Army if they were trained thoroughly in it's use.

[martinexsquaddie]

the browning can be an exceptionally good gun IF you get the training.
I picked up a weeks pistol shooting once more or less by accident.
Bit of a waste of tax payers money being a Infantry soldier probably put down the range the average pistol carrying units entire training allowance and then some.
had a caddy with a civi pistol few years later before they were all banned rather shocked the owner with the size of the group I got :lol:
so there might be something in this muscle memory thing.
But only if you get to put an absolute shed load of ammo down range which is never going to happen outside of SF.
Maybe the problem is the glock is seen to be simple and safe so people
get careless but there have been NDs with revolvers so whats the answer?

[marktigger]

At present pistol training isn't happening due to shortages of 9 mil. There are only a few Sat ranges kitted for pistols which is a shame as Sat pistol is fun and would I think be a great moneyspinning enterprise.
I remember reading in 'the operators' or one of those books how much 9 mil they used in training. Was scary ammount. Would love to get the opportunity to use up that much ammo.
The Glock would be good but wouldn't be my choice I'd prefer the Sig 226 or the HK USP but will use and try to master what I'm given.
Just wish I could get some range time with people who actually knew what they were doing and range control staff who wern't just put 10 rounds safely down the range standing up in classic police stance don't try anything fancy like weaver.

[martinexsquaddie]

Thats the problem I picked up my weeks pistol instruction as I was basically there to load the four tonner and sweep up the Brass the SNCO in charge took exception to a couple of numptys having a slack week.
getting any range time even in the infantry is harder enough.
though my brothers experiance in the gulf going down the range shouts out "stop mine"
NCO no we stopped doing that drill crack on
er no it a mine
turns out the so called swept mine had bomblets still on it no theres a way to add realism to training :(

[ogukuo72]

I've never heard of the P226K. Can anyone tell me what it is?

[Chops]

Whole thread here...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=123451&highlight=#123451

rgds

c

[usa320]

They should go with the USP.

Personally, i think they should have a list of like 20 commonly used pistols, and allow each soldier to study and shoot each weapon and choose the one he feels the most comfortable with.

[ogukuo72]

That ought to give the army logisticians a heart-attack!

[marktigger]

USA320
I agree about the USP as a choice. But Having 20 9mm pistols in service would be a Logistic nightmare. Different parts espically mags. In my mind the Major competitors are the sig and the USP.
The basic problem is with the British army at least that it pays lip service to pistols except for those who need them for special reasons like SF and CP. But the current climate isn't even allowing for basic familiarisation or the tests allegedly mandatory to carry a weapon due to shortages of training stocks of 9mm ammo.

[Ouch_Taser]

In some of the literature I've read, the authors are always complimenting the reliability of the Browning HP. Are the newer Glocks and Sigs really any less reliable?

[ogukuo72]

Both the Glock and the SIG have excellent reputation for reliability under rugged conditions. I don't think they are any less reliable than a Browning HP.

[Ouch_Taser]

Yes, by all accounts Sigs seem to be a superb (and expensive!) weapon. Upon revision, I found the same author (McNab) also endorses Sigs. His preference for the Browning would seem to simply be a case of going with what you know and thus, what you trust.

A little off (this) topic, but McNab also has a preference for 9mm pistols over any of the larger calibers simply because they give him more rounds in the magazine. I'm trying to figure out why the Australian NSW Police force have, apparently, switched to Glocks chambered to .40 instead of 9mm.

I'm wondering if it's better, in practice, to hit your target more with less, or less with more.

[James]

I'm wondering if it's better, in practice, to hit your target more with less, or less with more.


Oh no...

I predict that this thread will now reach at least 10 pages... :P

[ogukuo72]

I am a bit puzzled by the concept behind a 0.40 calibre round. It strikes me as a compromise round - neither here nor there.

It's not significantly more powerful (in terms of velocity and mass, NOT that ambigious phrase 'Stopping Power') than the 9mm.

If you really want something more powerful, why not go with the 0.45? And if you really want a pistol that's compact but powerful, why not stick with the 9mm.

[Royal]

At present pistol training isn't happening due to shortages of 9 mil. There are only a few Sat ranges kitted for pistols which is a shame as Sat pistol is fun and would I think be a great moneyspinning enterprise.

There are two pistol SAT ranges in the UK. Both are heavily used, but it's hardly an adequate number ;)

@ Usa320 :cantbeli:

[Mark Sman]

Pulls up soap box, saddles high horse, polishes ivory tower and takes a few practice swings with special glass penetrating rocks.

I really like the Browning High Power. great weapon. But if you ask me, and you didn't, John Browning got it right in 1911.

Pulls out big shovel and shoulder high waders.

Totally a matter of personal preference, but I'll take a .45 over a 9mm if someone is offering. Usually you get what you get though.

On a side note I'd prefer to carry a Browning High-Power loaded and safety on over a Glock. And I actually have Glock! But since transitioning to the 1911 style of weapon I would prefer that now.

If you have the choice, go with the one YOU would bet your life on. If you are issued crapola either get really good with it or develop an alternative plan.

My brother was a crew chief on UH-1s back in the day, and they issued him a .38 S&W revolver. A weapon he was very familiar with from before U.S. Army service due to the fact our dad was a police pistol instructor.

When he stopped laughing at the idea of defending a crash site with that POS he started looking for an alternative. Folding stock M-1 carbine duct-taped to right leg with 6 mags in a belt bag. 90 rounds from a light caliber weapon he wouldn't have to go looking for after the aircraft stopped rolling and continued burning. Maybe enough to hold a crash site for a few minutes while, hopefully, rescue comes.

Side note #2: I feel bad for UK guys that don't get the option to just go to Wal-Mart, buy 1,000 rounds of 9mm and head to the woods for some practice. Then again your murder rate is nowhere near ours so . . . hard to say. Again given the choice, and I am, I'll take this.

This has been a test of the Emergency BS system.

[ogukuo72]

To be fair to the 9mm fans, I would laugh my head off at the idea of defending a downed helicopter in hostile territory with a 0.45in pistol too! A pistol is just the wrong tool when you have hordes of Viet Cong coming at you.

[Chops]

Ouch Taser

I wasn't in on the reasoning by the hierarchy but I believe it is mainly led by widespread US adoption of the .40- we tend to follow the US rather than UK in police and security equipment adoption. The US adoption comes from a perceived lack of stopping power with the 9mm (going back to the infamous Miami FBI shooting in '87 or so) and the .40 has been pegged as next logical step- more theoretical stopping power without losing the high mag capacity of the 9mm.

NSWPF had an intent to purchase an automatic and I suspect they looked at what US agencies were using and had a nice chat with their regional Glock guy ;) Glock offer some of the best deals to LE...

Just to clarify, the Glock .40 was the first automatic adopted by the rank and file in NSW, it was a transition from S&W revolver not a 9mm Glock. SPG/TOU etc however had been using the 9milly Glock for many years.

rgds

c

[Argyll]

If it ain't broke.............don't fix it!!

[DeltaWhisky58]

Mark sman said:

I really like the Browning High Power. great weapon. But if you ask me, and you didn't, John Browning got it right in 1911.

I agree with you to some extent, however considering that the HP9mm is John Moses Brwoning's own improvement of his 1911A1 etc., I would have to go with what JMB decided upon.

I have extensive experience of the HP both having owned one for a number of years pre-ban, and also from military service. I have also used the 1911A1 and various clones. I have reasonably small hands, and although I can handle the HP quite happily, I find the 1911A1 to be an unmanageable handful - the length of the grip front to back presents me with a problem, and prevents me fully controlling the pistol. IMO the level of recoil from the .45ACP cartridge also makes this more of a handful, especially when you consider that it has to be suitable for the girlies (oops, sorry non-PC ;) ) in the service.

My experience of the Glock/SiG is very limited, although I did use the early SiG-Sauers. Another 9mm which stands high in my estimation is the Cz-75/85 series.

At the end of the day, IMO the Glock is just not soldier-proof, which is a very important consideration. If we have to replace the HP, the SiG gets my vote. But if the case is as Royal says, that need to replace may be further off than we think.

Argyll put the case very well...........

If it ain't broke.............don't fix it!!

[Steve Andrews]

I carried a Browning occasionally whilst in the British Army and own my own Glock 17.

No disrespect to the blokes but, knowing what British squaddies are like, I think they'd manage to break the Glock !

The Glock is a great pistol - functions flawlessly. I've never had a stoppage and don't expect I ever will.

Police - yes
Tactical Teams - yes
Private ownership - yes
British Infantry - ummm

[Argyll]

I take it you no longer reside in the UK Steve?

[DeltaWhisky58]

I mentioned this thread to a friend of mine, who was a Company Commander in a very famous Scottish Regiment during the early 80s.

He recollected an occasion when serving in Northern Ireland as a Junior Officer when he had cause to use his BHP in anger - despite being adequately trained (his words) he described emptying his pistol of all thirteen rounds to no result. He said this with some regret, and swore that had he had an SMG or SLR to hand, the armed terrorist would not have escaped.

The reason for posting this is it highlight the way in which the pistol is issued in the British Armed Forces with wholly inadequate training to anyone outside the SF & CP communities.

I know from my own experience of owning a BHP and firing several thousands of rounds, that there is no substitute for proper training and plenty practice - why issue a pistol at all, when 95% of the guys carrying it have little or no chance of using it to any effect beyond point bank ranges.

If as appears to be the case, we have adequate stocks of serviceable 9mm BHPs, rather than replacing them before their time, spend the budget allocation on plenty 9 milly ammo and proper training.

[Mark Sman]

the length of the grip front to back presents me with a problem

Lots of people have this problem, if you are lucky enought to be able to choose, you go with what you will bet your life on. If not, welll, its alternative plan time. Get really good with a knife?

Here is a good breakdown of the Miami FBI shooting
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm



pend the budget allocation on plenty 9 milly ammo and proper training.

Yup, I'd rather have a well trained and prepped shooter backing me with a .22 than a Nimrod with Desert Eagle.

That being said, none of the psitols being considered seem to represent a real improvement over the BHP. Might as well tally up how many you have issued and figure range rotation and ammo purchases based on that.

I imagine some decent training areas have been set up in various areas that UK forces operate in. Might want to jump on the training while there. Of course all this means spending money. But world class soldiers don't come cheap.

Whats the deal for training with the BHP and simunitions? Do Uk mil or police go in for this sort of thing?

[Royal]

Whats the deal for training with the BHP and simunitions? Do Uk mil or police go in for this sort of thing?

Can't really speak for the Police (CX20's your man there), but mates that have gone that way don't use them. Then again even the firearms teams get a pathetic amount of range time.

As far as the military goes, other than the very ocasional use of blanks, it's live ammo all the way.

[marktigger]

9mm blanks......do they really exist? ;)

or as i heard a certain doctor aske an instrctor at RMAS if there was "Blank Tracer" :cantbeli:

[Royal]

9mm blanks......do they really exist? ;)

or as i heard a certain doctor aske an instrctor at RMAS if there was "Blank Tracer" :cantbeli:

Actually there is (kind of). I had a demo from a mate (ex-pongo) who runs a company providing firearms for film & TV. They had some 'blank' tracer for film work - a plastic round that had a range of about 100m (burn out was at about 80m). He reckoned it was non-lethal, but no one was prepared to stand in front of one!

[TriggerPuller]

For infantry type troops the Sig P226/228 is ideal if you want to go with the anemic 9mm NATO round. For CQB purposes I prefer the 1911 style .45's. Next I would go with the Glocks in either 9mm or the G21 in .45. The Glocks simplicity of point and shoot in a well trained soldier is unbeatable. While the USP line are good guns ,the bulk of them added with the safety/decocker(depending on which mode you prefer) is just something I dont want to have to deal with after my primary is down.
I do really like the idea of a 9mm in SA mode like the BHP or CZ 75.
For everday carry, reliability,accuracy, easy ability to add accessories and inexpensive it is hard to beat a Glock. This coming from a guy who would shoot his P226 about 2,000 rounds per week. Remember that all handgun cartridges are inherently weak and NEVER rely on a OSS,but if I had to use one shot only in a hostage rescue situation I would use the G21 in .45!! Just my .02 worth.

TP

P.S. do the SAS/SBS fellas ever complain about the 9mm round like we do here?

[martinexsquaddie]

9mm blank does exsist the Danish army issue my old TA unit "Borrowed nearly a truck load off them" its amazing how many boxes of blank you can hide in a milan firing tube :lol:

[Ouch_Taser]

@ Mark Sman

Just read throught that Miami shooting report. Wow. That would seem to make a case for the use of a more powerful pistol round. But then again, one of the crims got hit with a .357 magnum in the head "above the outer edge of the right eyebrow" and he was still thought to be functioning. Both crims got hit with multiple 9mm rounds and were still mobile and returning fire. Incredible. :cantbeli:

Adrenaline must be an amazing thing in a firefight.

The author of the report also notes the accuracy of the shooters involved. What weapons training do FBI agents receieve?

[marktigger]

from the military prospective it is difficult enough to train ordinary soldiers to use moderatley powered hand guns like the Browning with the limited opportunities and resources available.
The arguments what about .45ACP or .357 are a complete red herring in this thread. We are discussing MILITARY applications of pistols.

[DeltaWhisky58]

To be absolutely honest, I think the pistol has a different place in the US Military in comparison with ours (i.e. the UK).

If you look at the pix coming out of Afg. and more recently Iraq, a very high proportion of G.I.s are carrying pistols as well as the usual M-4/M-16 with half of Silicon Valley hanging off of it. If you look at the average Sqauddie - he has his (perhaps not-so) trusty SA80, Mimimi, Gimpy, L96 or whatever...........very few Brits are seen carrying pistols other than those who are engaged in non-front line duties or others.

In the British Armed Forces, the pistol is not seen as a combat weapon, rather in most cases it is for self-defence. Other than MPs, guys on CP duties, Senior Officers, Aircrew, AFV crews, Special Forces etc., who else routinely carries a pistol? Unless specially trained in its use (SF, SP, MPs etc.) most of the guys who carry a pistol would be better using it as a 2lb metal club.

Would the two signallers beaten to death in Belfast in the late eighties have survived had they know how to use their Brownings other than as a weight in their pockets? I think the answer to this is yes. I believe there was at least one documented incident where a properly-trained 14 Int. operator foiled an ambush in N.I. armed only with a BHP where his poorly-trained adversories were toting AKs.

As a point of interest, how many of the US guys who carry pistols into combat, could really use one?

[Steve Andrews]

I take it you no longer reside in the UK Steve?

I live in Jersey, Channel Islands. Semi auto rifles and handguns still legal here.
I also have an Winchester M14 and a 7.62 Galil ARM.

[Gringo]

To be absolutely honest, I think the pistol has a different place in the US Military in comparison with ours (i.e. the UK).

If you look at the pix coming out of Afg. and more recently Iraq, a very high proportion of G.I.s are carrying pistols as well as the usual M-4/M-16 with half of Silicon Valley hanging off of it. If you look at the average Sqauddie - he has his (perhaps not-so) trusty SA80, Mimimi, Gimpy, L96 or whatever...........very few Brits are seen carrying pistols other than those who are engaged in non-front line duties or others.

In the British Armed Forces, the pistol is not seen as a combat weapon, rather in most cases it is for self-defence. Other than MPs, guys on CP duties, Senior Officers, Aircrew, AFV crews, Special Forces etc., who else routinely carries a pistol? Unless specially trained in its use (SF, SP, MPs etc.) most of the guys who carry a pistol would be better using it as a 2lb metal club.

Would the two signallers beaten to death in Belfast in the late eighties have survived had they know how to use their Brownings other than as a weight in their pockets? I think the answer to this is yes. I believe there was at least one documented incident where a properly-trained 14 Int. operator foiled an ambush in N.I. armed only with a BHP where his poorly-trained adversories were toting AKs.

As a point of interest, how many of the US guys who carry pistols into combat, could really use one?

Didn't one of those signalsman fire his Browning into the air to scare of the mob?

[DeltaWhisky58]

To be absolutely honest, I think the pistol has a different place in the US Military in comparison with ours (i.e. the UK).

If you look at the pix coming out of Afg. and more recently Iraq, a very high proportion of G.I.s are carrying pistols as well as the usual M-4/M-16 with half of Silicon Valley hanging off of it. If you look at the average Sqauddie - he has his (perhaps not-so) trusty SA80, Mimimi, Gimpy, L96 or whatever...........very few Brits are seen carrying pistols other than those who are engaged in non-front line duties or others.

In the British Armed Forces, the pistol is not seen as a combat weapon, rather in most cases it is for self-defence. Other than MPs, guys on CP duties, Senior Officers, Aircrew, AFV crews, Special Forces etc., who else routinely carries a pistol? Unless specially trained in its use (SF, SP, MPs etc.) most of the guys who carry a pistol would be better using it as a 2lb metal club.

Would the two signallers beaten to death in Belfast in the late eighties have survived had they know how to use their Brownings other than as a weight in their pockets? I think the answer to this is yes. I believe there was at least one documented incident where a properly-trained 14 Int. operator foiled an ambush in N.I. armed only with a BHP where his poorly-trained adversories were toting AKs.

As a point of interest, how many of the US guys who carry pistols into combat, could really use one?

Didn't one of those signalsman fire his Browning into the air to scare of the mob?

Yes, I believe he did...........not that it did him any good :( Had he and his mate been properly trained in the use of the BHP, they may at least have stood some chance. They deserved better from the army than "here's your pistol and a mag of thirteen rounds, sign here".

[marktigger]

the problem has always been the pistol has been seen as a senior officers weapon and Juniors shouldn't be touching it. therefore with the deman for pistols there isn't enough of them my unit only holds a fraction of its weapons scalings due to lack of armoury space and lack of weapons even at full scalings it averages at about 1 weapon to 8 people as red crosses are ment to protect us.
Even when we do shoot its seen as a live rounds to empty cases exercise with no real effort being taken to teach or coach. The only people who get that is the shooting team (who also get the lions portion of the training ammo stock) or the ones who can't hit the Screen at 100m. This year i will get my allocation of 20 rounds of 5.56 or 9mm and do a ****e supported at 100 m or standing at 10 m with range staff who are more interested in getting the shooting over as fast as they can. Then If mobilised I probably won't be issued a weapon as i'm a medic and teherfore don't need one or if i get one will be seen as more dangerous to myself or others with it.

[martinexsquaddie]

thats pathetic
shouldn't we learn from the jessic lynch affair
having enough weapons that work and the ability to at least get rounds in the l direction of the enemy could save your life especially if your not in a teeth arm unit

[DeltaWhisky58]

I have to say that I am amzed that ammo levels are this bad - I can remember firing several hundred rounds in a day as a cadet in the 70s, where have these allocations gone.

Having recently discussed range time/ammo with a friend who has SF connections, it is very clear that they aren't going short - why does the rest of our forces get so little range time/ammo - it's verging on criminal!

[marktigger]

simple answer money and the 3% efficiencey savings that have to be made every year. Same reason they only held 9000 sets od dessies

Used to be we woul have 5-6 range weekends a year due to training cuts its now 1 day

[Steve Andrews]

To be absolutely honest, I think the pistol has a different place in the US Military in comparison with ours (i.e. the UK).

If you look at the pix coming out of Afg. and more recently Iraq, a very high proportion of G.I.s are carrying pistols as well as the usual M-4/M-16 with half of Silicon Valley hanging off of it. If you look at the average Sqauddie - he has his (perhaps not-so) trusty SA80, Mimimi, Gimpy, L96 or whatever...........very few Brits are seen carrying pistols other than those who are engaged in non-front line duties or others.

In the British Armed Forces, the pistol is not seen as a combat weapon, rather in most cases it is for self-defence. Other than MPs, guys on CP duties, Senior Officers, Aircrew, AFV crews, Special Forces etc., who else routinely carries a pistol? Unless specially trained in its use (SF, SP, MPs etc.) most of the guys who carry a pistol would be better using it as a 2lb metal club.

Would the two signallers beaten to death in Belfast in the late eighties have survived had they know how to use their Brownings other than as a weight in their pockets? I think the answer to this is yes. I believe there was at least one documented incident where a properly-trained 14 Int. operator foiled an ambush in N.I. armed only with a BHP where his poorly-trained adversories were toting AKs.

As a point of interest, how many of the US guys who carry pistols into combat, could really use one?

Didn't one of those signalsman fire his Browning into the air to scare of the mob?

Yes, I believe he did...........not that it did him any good :( Had he and his mate been properly trained in the use of the BHP, they may at least have stood some chance. They deserved better from the army than "here's your pistol and a mag of thirteen rounds, sign here".

More like "here's you mag of TEN rounds, sign here". Ten rounds are so much easier to count when you return them to the guard room.
Sad, I know. That's why I always had an ample supply of buckshees.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Would love to get the opportunity to use up that much ammo.

http://www.ch4d.com/

[martinexsquaddie]

slight problem thats illegal rofl

[Sixgun Symphony]

In the British Armed Forces, the pistol is not seen as a combat weapon, rather in most cases it is for self-defence.

If the SA-80 is as unreliable as they say it is, then I am surprised that more troops are not packing a sidearm.

You are correct that a pistol is primarly a defensive weapon. But it can also be useful for crawling into tunnels. I wonder if the caves in Afghanistan are anything like the Cu Chi tunnels of Vietnam (http://www.mishalov.com/Vietnam_Cu-Chi.html).

If training with pistols is so poor for the average soldier, then maybe a revolver would be better than the self loading pistol? A .38 S&W revolver very simple to operate and easy to shoot. I know that DA revolvers are 'old school', but the better trained SF guys will still have their modern pistols.

[Sixgun Symphony]

slight problem thats illegal rofl

Well that sucks.

[martinexsquaddie]

I think most US army units would have a slight problem with you turning up with your own ammo. :lol:
though if my brother rejoins as a medic maybe looking for a good mail order firm for rounds magazines and a decent handgun :(
bet he regrets leaving that marakov in florida :|

[Sixgun Symphony]

I think most US army units would have a slight problem with you turning up with your own ammo. :lol:
though if my brother rejoins as a medic maybe looking for a good mail order firm for rounds magazines and a decent handgun :(
bet he regrets leaving that marakov in florida :|


If he goes to Iraq, then there will likely be enough battlefield pick ups to go around.

I think he might find alot of Browning P-35 pistols there.

[martinexsquaddie]

he's in Basra at the moment as Ta infantry soldier thing is he's a qualified nurse so soon as he gets back he's joining the medics instant promotion to captain. He enjoyed infantry soldiering as a hobby but for real it sucks rofl. I warned him but he would'nt listen :) IMHO 35 is to old to be an infantry private mind you having a part time military career is a bit sad.
should have transferred in the summer when it looked like they were going to be called up anyway rofl

[Sixgun Symphony]

he's in Basra at the moment as Ta infantry soldier thing is he's a qualified nurse so soon as he gets back he's joining the medics instant promotion to captain. He enjoyed infantry soldiering as a hobby but for real it sucks rofl. I warned him but he would'nt listen :) IMHO 35 is to old to be an infantry private mind you having a part time military career is a bit sad.
should have transferred in the summer when it looked like they were going to be called up anyway rofl

Whose army? US? British?

I know if he were US Navy, then he would become a nurse corps officer rather than a corpsman.

[martinexsquaddie]

He's british army TA sort of like your national guard
so he's just a private at the moment guard duty guard duty and more guard duty.
when he gets back he transfers to the medics becomes an officer immediatly :lol:.
mad thing is the army medical service is desperatly short of nurses at the mo and they have one with 12 years plus experiance manning a gate :roll:

[DeltaWhisky58]

Sixgun Symphony said:

If the SA-80 is as unreliable as they say it is, then I am surprised that more troops are not packing a sidearm.

That may well be the case in the US forces, but in British Forces terms that's carrying an unauthorised weapon. If you are not scaled to be issued with a pistol, you don't carry one.

Much as many of our guys would like to Pack a sidearm it just ain't allowed.

By all accounts the SA80A2 is now working properly, although personally I wouldn't mind back-up were it my issue weapon, which unless you're on SF or CP duties it probably will be!

[marktigger]

1. TA is actually more like the US army reserve than the Guard.
2. Nurses, Doctors, and a few other Professions allied to medicine are classified as professionally qualified officers. Reason pay for one and the fact that their qualifications are needed its so the extra outlay is justified.
3. The posession of handguns in the UK is illegal and therefore soldiers cannot legally carry a backup pistol.

[oldsoak]

There are soldiers who do carry "unathorised and unissued" weaponry - combat knives being an example, plus pistols "aquired" from the enemy in combat zones. So long as you dont attempt to bring them home , the rule is dont get caught. IIRC there used to be a big board at Brize with drawings of contraband items and a box to drop them in.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Agreed, no-one is doubting that, but it is still a No-No to carry un-authorised weaponry, however huge numbers of weapons have come back from every conflict we've been involved in since the year dot!

Around one in three illegally held firearms in the UK is still of WW1/WW2 origin - especially former-axis souvenirs (Luger P-08, Walther P-38/PP/PPK, Beretta M1934 etc.).

[oldsoak]

Must confess I'm not happy with Pte Snott carrying around a weapon he has not been trained to use and having him playing around with it in his pit off duty. ND's can stop promotion prospects like nothing else on earth ! p-) But blokeswill end up doing it so lets make them safe to do so. Way round it is to offer the blokes training on safe handling and usage of likely enemy weapons. He should declare it to his platoon NCO or senior rank who will check that it is combat worthy and not an unsafe pile of crap. ( as if the platoon sargeant hasnt got enough to do already :) )

[Royal]

Must confess I'm not happy with Pte Snott carrying around a weapon he has not been trained to use and having him playing around with it in his pit off duty. ND's can stop promotion prospects like nothing else on earth ! p-) But blokeswill end up doing it so lets make them safe to do so. Way round it is to offer the blokes training on safe handling and usage of likely enemy weapons. He should declare it to his platoon NCO or senior rank who will check that it is combat worthy and not an unsafe pile of crap. ( as if the platoon sargeant hasnt got enough to do already :) )

Too many good young lads have died from 'playing' with UXO and captured weapons (not to mention the civilians). An example from the Balkans; 3 British and 2 Russian EOD Operators killed in separate incidents attempting to disarm Ex-Yugoslav M79 hand grenades - if these guys get killed, what the hell is a inquisitive infantry tom supposed to do?

If you've not been trained on it, leave the f**king thing alone.

One of the reasons we have a lower operational suicide rate than the US armed forces is that we do not allow line troops to retain firearms 'off duty' on operations.

The contraband display and box are still there in the departures lounge at Brize.

[Michael RVR]

I've gotta wonder why, if theres been so many incidence, they dont just blow them in place.

:|

Any thoughts ?

[Royal]

I've gotta wonder why, if theres been so many incidence, they dont just blow them in place.

:|

Any thoughts ?

Because ****heads pick them up and take them back to houses and bases. The M79 BTW is an anti-tank hand grenade, not just a frag job...

[king_nothing100]

Glock 17 is f'ugly, are the RAF still using the PP or PPK? I also heard pre pistol ban, soldiers were aloud to use they own registered firearm, can't remember where though.

[Royal]

Glock 17 is f'ugly, are the RAF still using the PP or PPK? I also heard pre pistol ban, soldiers were aloud to use they own registered firearm, can't remember where though.

All the Snowdrops that I've seen recently have Glocks. I havn't seen a PPK this centuary.

In my lifetime we've never been 'allowed' to use personal weapons. In the pre-ban days some officers (and I guess NCO's) flouted the rule.

[basket of soft kittens]

Hmmmmm maybe we should just ask Royal.

*dialing Batphone*


aha!!! i knew all along that batmans alter ego was the queen of england( she had a teaset in her utility belt)

[marktigger]

on tellic when i was finally issued a 9mm it only went back to the armoury the evening I left theatre many of us retained our weapons off duty as the armoury was restricted opening hours and we never knew when we had to go out. Most of the juniors who were escort/drivers did the same.

[king_nothing100]

Must have just been someone talking **** or something or he could have been or had an understanding officer.

[Argyll]

Glock 17 is f'ugly, are the RAF still using the PP or PPK? I also heard pre pistol ban, soldiers were aloud to use they own registered firearm, can't remember where though.

In my lifetime we've never been 'allowed' to use personal weapons. In the pre-ban days some officers (and I guess NCO's) flouted the rule.

I'll add an interesting perspective to this,even I as a PMC,have an issued sidearm the Glock 17,my company does not allow non issued weapons to be carried.Non issued weapons are classed as illegal,and rightly so,there have been several ND's with such weapons,thankfully all non fatal,but the legal implications for insurance purposes of killing someone with an unauthorised weapon is enough to lose a Multi Million dollar contract!!

[balltiksoon]

I thinks they've already adopted the SIG. I read an article in SWAT magazine (Feb. '96) reviewing the L-85A1 and it mentioned that the SIG P228 was one of the arms adopted by the British army.

SIG P-226 is adopted by SAS and SBS.
Glock from different Police agencies, Walter P99 from secret Service.