Article on Intilligent Design

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Evolution theory defended
From:http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16984118-28793,00.html

By Leigh Dayton

October 21, 2005

A COALITION of more than 70,000 Australian scientists and science educators has condemned the teaching in science classes of "intelligent design" - a creationist-like theory of the origin of life.

The group says it is "gravely concerned" that intelligent design is being taught in schools as an alternative to evolution. "It's important scientists take a stand on this because intelligent design is nothing more than creationism dressed up in a tuxedo," says Mike Archer, dean of science at the University of NSW and the driving force behind the letter. "It's the same mishmash of theology and science."

The letter urges governments and educators to oppose the teaching of intelligent design in the nation's science classes. Federal Science Minister Brendan Nelson declined to comment. But a spokesman said that while Dr Nelson believed parents and teachers should decide whether or not intelligent design was taught, it was not a "replacement" for evolution.

Evolutionary theory - first proposed by Charles Darwin in 1859 - explains the diversity of plants and animals as the result of natural selection. It is based on observations of the natural world and can be tested.

By contrast, intelligent design theory - refined by the conservative Discovery Institute in Seattle, Washington - contends that life is too complex to have emerged without divine intervention in the form of an "intelligent designer".


Well well well well.

[rocket13]

Well well well well.

What about it? Seems like that crap is spreading to other nations, what a sad day.....

[Bugalugs]

"intelligent design" is just religous zealotry wrapped in a scientific sheeps clothing, to get around US law.

"intilligent design" is the same thing in New Zealand, where they shag the sheep to boot

[MacDaddy]

Why would you want to be a descendant of an ape?
Evolution is a THEORY. Creationism is a THEORY.
Evolution also meets all the criteria of a religion. Zealots as well?
What are the anti-creationism folks really worried about?
Open your mind and do your own research, don't let someone else do it for you.
Yikes!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

As the scientist above clearly state. Evolution can be tested. ID can not.

[Belrick]

Why would you want to be a descendant of an ape?
Evolution is a THEORY. Creationism is a THEORY.
Evolution also meets all the criteria of a religion. Zealots as well?
What are the anti-creationism folks really worried about?
Open your mind and do your own research, don't let someone else do it for you.
Yikes!


We are not just decendants of apes. We ARE apes. -go read a book.

Youre confused over what a theory is, i suspect you cannot seperate a theory from a hipothesis. -go read a book, start with the idea that gravity has a theory as well then continue to realise that evolution is a fact (observed just like gravity) and it has a theory to explain it.

There is ZERO science within ID. It is NOT science. Do you understand what that means? The reason why scientists are up in arms is that a non-scientific theological subject is trying to be taught in science classes due to political meddling. Thats so wrong its not funny.

Lastly creationism isnt a theory. Theories are required to be testable. Oh and how on earth is evolution a religion?

You say theres a god so you bow your head to them. You cannot prove this you just have faith. This makes your cult a religion.

I have faith in evolution and i believe in it. But my faith is not required because i can get off my arse and observe evolution occuring thereby proving it to be a fact.

Something you bible followers can never do.

[rocket13]

Why would you want to be a descendant of an ape?
Evolution is a THEORY. Creationism is a THEORY.
Evolution also meets all the criteria of a religion. Zealots as well?
What are the anti-creationism folks really worried about?
Open your mind and do your own research, don't let someone else do it for you.
Yikes!


This made my day, thanks for the laugh....

If creationism is a theory please post what scientific journal (credible) it is being displayed in?

[ZaakM433]

As the scientist above clearly state. Evolution can be tested. ID can not.

so you just proved that scientists dont have any business attacking ID?

There is a scientific side to ID, and that can be tested...

[ElHombre]

so you just proved that scientists dont have any business attacking ID?

There is a scientific side to ID, and that can be tested...

it has been tested and it failed. miserably. the scientific method has been used to test evolutionary theory, which is why it's accepted fact in science. ID is, at best, looking at the evidence and throwing its hands up in the air saying, 'oh well, if i can't figure out an explanation then there must not be an answer.' at worst, it's a bunch of zealots who can't stand to have their beliefs questioned using the same methods which has advanced the understanding of the world around us for thousands of years.

[Bugalugs]

so you just proved that scientists dont have any business attacking ID?

There is a scientific side to ID, and that can be tested...

pseudo-science, you meant

Bible-Belt blathering, from beginning to end

[BurningMan]

Just wondering, how has Evolution been proven? I was under the impression we couldnt actually observe mutation based upon natural selection and adaptation because of the time said process takes?
I dont really have a take on this but i thought id ask. Also, this is called MILITARYphotos for a reason....im sure there are forums where this is more fully debated.

[Bugalugs]

Mutation and natural selection are observable.

good example is the change in head-size of snakes in Northern Australia. Responding to a new element in the environment (bastard cane toads) the average size of the heads of certain snakes has dropped significantly in teh past few decades. This is because if they eat a cane toad over a certain size, they die.

mutations happen every time a new animal is born, a dramatic change in the environment often lends a dramatic advantge to one mutation over another, resulting in dramatice evolutionary steps. Or it can happen slowly where there is a gradual change, like a climate shift.

youre right, this is not MP.net stuff, but eh.

[Belrick]

If anyone is serious about being a layman and learning about evolution you can learn everything you need to know including instance of observed evolutionary process then go here :)
http://www.talkorigins.org/

[tsuri]

Intelligent Design is actually rejected by Creationists and Scientists.
This is why:

Intelligent Design does not include god, it only includes a "Designer" so it is not acceptable for the fundamentalists. And since everything can as well be explained without introducing a new Variable into the equation, scientists reject it as well. As long as there are no facts that only leave the conclusion that we were genetically engineered by a supreme being, we don´t need a theory that includes it. Because If you include it, you raise more questions than you anwser.


We are not just decendants of apes. We ARE apes. -go read a book.

Actually we are not apes but primates like apes. We share a common ancestor that was neither ape nor human and yet both. This "Missing Link" has not yet been found but there are older mammals and primates we both relate to so this one fossil is not really that important.
Genetically a Chimp and a Human are very very alike. We share 99% Percent of our genes. So If that Designer created Man after his model, why did he design the Ape as 99% of him? ;)

[Vorian]

Actually we are not apes but primates like apes. We share a common ancestor that was neither ape nor human and yet both. This "Missing Link" has not yet been found but there are older mammals and primates we both relate to so this one fossil is not really that important.
Genetically a Chimp and a Human are very very alike. We share 99% Percent of our genes. So If that Designer created Man after his model, why did he design the Ape as 99% of him?

Of course we have evolved from the apes. Actually some people in this forum are still in the process of changing. :)

Religion answers to the question 'why?'. Science answers to 'how?'. No need to fight people.

[dunkin]

You know something...

You have your way of thinking, I have my way, we aren't clones that (I think) we can all agree on. We are rational being, we think thru thing, we study, we observe, and when the time comes we decide, we pass this onto our children.

I will not try to 'recruit/convert' you to my religion, beliefs, faith. I will state my opinion and let you decide. This discussion about evolution and creation isn't going anywhere. It's like an American/Russian/German/Turk trying to tell an American/Russian/German/Turk that their country sucks and should be destroyed. It will never end, and all you’ll do is piss people off. They’ve already made that decision and won’t back down from it.

My opinion, I think several types of Math, History, Literature, Sports, and Science should be taught in school. I know that's not economically feasible, so we need to find a happy medium a little of this, a little of that, and when you graduate from high school and you are paying for your education then you can say I want this or I want that.

[rocket13]

You know something...

My opinion, I think several types of Math, History, Literature, Sports, and Science should be taught in school. I know that's not economically feasible, so we need to find a happy medium a little of this, a little of that, and when you graduate from high school and you are paying for your education then you can say I want this or I want that.


Several types of Math? You mean their are other variations to algebra that the schools don't wish to teach?

[dunkin]

Several types of Math? You mean their are other variations to algebra that the schools don't wish to teach?

let's see other than basic math . . . algebra, statistics, geometry, accounting, calculus, trigonometry, differential equations, advanced math . . . just to name a few.

[micronazi]

Religion answers to the question 'why?'. Science answers to 'how?'. No need to fight people.

This is a valid point. Science explains how things happen and why they react in certain ways. Religion on the other hand explains the motive. With this in mind wouldn't it be like comparing apples to oranges? Some will debate and argue for one side or the other, others will treat them as two completely separate issues and both will coexist.

There is no solid proof to say that we weren't created with a motive or purpose, so don't try. And it is very difficult to dismiss science, the very thing that has served us and made us smarter, when it is contrary to an ancient religious text written thousands of years ago for people with no scientific background to understand.

After previous threads I've come to the opinion that there is no point in argueing this issue.

Regards,
micronazi

[rocket13]

let's see other than basic math . . . algebra, statistics, geometry, accounting, calculus, trigonometry, differential equations, advanced math . . . just to name a few.


They already teach much of that in HS. I took up too calculus I and the smarter kids went on to II and III.

[dunkin]

They already teach much of that in HS. I took up too calculus I and the smarter kids went on to II and III.

I'm not saying they don't . . . it just the point that we teach may different approaches to different subjects, except for science.

[dangerclose]

As the scientist above clearly state. Evolution can be tested. ID can not.


Sure it can .. you can die.

[rocket13]

I'm not saying they don't . . . it just the point that we teach may different approaches to different subjects, except for science.

Now your confusing me. So your saying that teaching different subjects in math equates to teach algerba, geometry, calculus, and so on. But then you say we only teach on science. But by your initial logic that math have different subjects (cal., alg.) then sience has many subjects also. For science we have chemisty, biology, physics, astronomy. Well those are the classes that I took when I was in HS and in the real world their is even more.

So then we do have many different subjects for science.

[ed316]

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/4396/awwa8a1do.th.jpg (http://img486.imageshack.us/my.php?image=awwa8a1do.jpg) Evolution

[Bugalugs]

woohoo thanks new avatar there

[tsuri]

Teach Alternatives (http://home.arcor.de/sackgasse2/Bilder/table.gif)
I keep stumbling across these recently

[ed316]

got plenty more

[Fenna]

Teach Alternatives (http://home.arcor.de/sackgasse2/Bilder/table.gif)
I keep stumbling across these recently

That is ridiculous

[Lazarou]

These intelligent design threads are even funnier than the Chechnya-threads and the ultraconservative biblenazis with their "Hallelujah, God bless Russia!" comments.

[fisheyestudio]

Hey howdy hey!

This thread inspired me to write a little "story". Enjoy!

An interesting thing happened as I was out hunting this fall. In a particularly dense section of forest I came upon an unexpected clearing. Words cannot do justice in expressing the shock I felt as my eyes beheld a three story mansion. Somehow the minerals in the soil had reacted with the morning dew over the ages and formed a perfectly square and level foundation and porch. Trees had grown to form wall studs, ceiling and floor joists, and even tongue and groove flooring. It was so obvious that no human presence had visited this place. Nature was just doing what nature does...or not. Doesn't every house declare a builder?
On my way back I had to take shelter from a terrible storm. An F-5 twister was heading my way but changed paths and crossed over an airplane graveyard. When the storm had passed, I followed the twisters path of destruction and as I approached the junkyard I heard a loud roaring and raced for cover. Silly me. It not the twister at all, only it effects. As the storm had passed over all those derelict airliners and military transports, it had reassembled a fully functional jet from all those spare parts. Well, that is what I thought. In actuality, it was a total new design of an advanced stealth bomber. I use the word “design” loosely, since it was just nature doing what nature does...or not.
If you have not yet realized that my story contains some elements of fiction, well, you probably watch the x-files way to much. But in all seriousness, it takes no more faith to believe what I have written then to believe that this wonderful / awful world in which we live, is just some cosmic happenstance. If you care to be really honest, my guess is that you believe what you believe because it is what you want to believe. It fits the way you want to live and how you want to world to be. Your morality is dictating your theology.
Faith is an element and function of the mind.
It amazes me the amount of scorn that some of you hurl towards those of us who do not worship at the alter of science and humanism. I do not take it personally because I am sure you have run into some so modern day Pharasee or had some other negative experience that you associate with Christianity. But please, use that highly evolved, sophisticated mind, and do some honest examinations of these Scriptures and this faith, before you decide that we are all just brainwashed, “ultra-conservative biblenazis”.
And if you do...you will find that before God the Father spoke the world into existence, He knew your name, He loved you, and He had laid out the plan by which you might Know Him.

Jesus blessings!
Chris

[Ayura]

Hey howdy hey!

This thread inspired me to write a little "story". Enjoy!

An interesting thing happened as I was out hunting this fall. In a particularly dense section of forest I came upon an unexpected clearing. Words cannot do justice in expressing the shock I felt as my eyes beheld a three story mansion. Somehow the minerals in the soil had reacted with the morning dew over the ages and formed a perfectly square and level foundation and porch. Trees had grown to form wall studs, ceiling and floor joists, and even tongue and groove flooring. It was so obvious that no human presence had visited this place. Nature was just doing what nature does...or not. Doesn't every house declare a builder?
On my way back I had to take shelter from a terrible storm. An F-5 twister was heading my way but changed paths and crossed over an airplane graveyard. When the storm had passed, I followed the twisters path of destruction and as I approached the junkyard I heard a loud roaring and raced for cover. Silly me. It not the twister at all, only it effects. As the storm had passed over all those derelict airliners and military transports, it had reassembled a fully functional jet from all those spare parts. Well, that is what I thought. In actuality, it was a total new design of an advanced stealth bomber. I use the word “design” loosely, since it was just nature doing what nature does...or not.
If you have not yet realized that my story contains some elements of fiction, well, you probably watch the x-files way to much. But in all seriousness, it takes no more faith to believe what I have written then to believe that this wonderful / awful world in which we live, is just some cosmic happenstance. If you care to be really honest, my guess is that you believe what you believe because it is what you want to believe. It fits the way you want to live and how you want to world to be. Your morality is dictating your theology.
Faith is an element and function of the mind.
It amazes me the amount of scorn that some of you hurl towards those of us who do not worship at the alter of science and humanism. I do not take it personally because I am sure you have run into some so modern day Pharasee or had some other negative experience that you associate with Christianity. But please, use that highly evolved, sophisticated mind, and do some honest examinations of these Scriptures and this faith, before you decide that we are all just brainwashed, “ultra-conservative biblenazis”.
And if you do...you will find that before God the Father spoke the world into existence, He knew your name, He loved you, and He had laid out the plan by which you might Know Him.

Jesus blessings!
Chris


Excellent post :)

[Belrick]

Stupid people. Houses, clocks cars dont have DNA. Whats even worse you noggins who madeyou? At 13 did a god appear and place pubic hair upon your body or did they grow of there own accord following natural biology?

[dangerclose]

This is not an argument that will go unresolved. You and I will die someday ... we're all just a heartbeat away from eternity.

To observe the wonder and complexity of nature, human physiology and all that can be seen of the universe around us and to attribute all of that to random chance is absurdity. It's like coming across a masterpiece painting with God's initials at the bottom and discounting it as random and meaningless paint splotches.


"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20


tick .. tick .. tick ...

[Belrick]

Yes yes yes. No doubt that my ancestors looked into the wonder of fire for the first time and attributed its magical properties to a God as combustion was beyond there understanding.

What is really sad that in this day and age theres still people living as neanderthals such as dangerclose.

There is no evidence of gods signature on anything humans have ever studied. In fact within biology theres quite the opposite, all one has to do is look for that which works poorly like a pandas thumb.

And as for dieing. All we know for sure is once death occurs people are largely unreponsive and there body begins to decay and fall into ruin.

Your imagination tells you of becoming invisible and floating up to the clouds and living with other dead invisible people. Good for you, did you swallow that blue pill with water or dry swallow?

[ElHombre]

It's like coming across a masterpiece painting with God's initials at the bottom and discounting it as random and meaningless paint splotches.

and where exactly have you found the signature?

[Durandal]

Creationism is a THEORY.

Actually, technically, its not.

What's more ƒucking appalling is that people actually think it is and simply are confused by a relatively simple definition.

What's worse is that people seem to think that, as a science, we teach evolution as FACT. Which, to my knowledge, no public school or university does. It is taught as a THEORY.

Which, technically, it is.

[Durandal]

It amazes me the amount of scorn that some of you hurl towards those of us who do not worship at the alter of science and humanism.

Chris

A nice story, but here's the deal.

Teach what you want to in your church.

I am down with that. I'll even tolerate it as part of your faith, as I should do, both as a neighbor and citizen of this nation that promotes tolerance of faith and religion.

With that said, no amount of your faith defines "scientific theory" as something other than what it is. Nor does your faith in anyway somehow disprove "scientific theory".

Your faith has no place being taught in a science class room.

[Durandal]

it has been tested and it failed. miserably. the scientific method has been used to test evolutionary theory, which is why it's accepted fact in science. ID is, at best, looking at the evidence and throwing its hands up in the air saying, 'oh well, if i can't figure out an explanation then there must not be an answer.' at worst, it's a bunch of zealots who can't stand to have their beliefs questioned using the same methods which has advanced the understanding of the world around us for thousands of years.

Actually both of you are wrong.

Evolution is NOT fact. Its a theory. It has undergone MANY tests and changes over the past century alone. That is not to say it is without merit and certainly the most reasonable theory of the time. It is, however, just a theory.

Intelligent Design has actually never TRULY been tested or disproved. Its simply been stated.

[Ria]

It would be nice to have it as a social studies, since Creationism is based on faith, and as we all know, faith is not logic. We were discussing this in my philosophy class a couple weeks back. A lot of students felt it would be appropriate as an elective - a class that you are free to take but is not required. Even better would be to have a religion course where you study not just creationism, but other religious opinions on this subject as well. Or study religions in general. The philosophy of religions. They say the science classes exclude Christianity's Creationism but it also excludes several other religions. And we can't fit that in a science class curriculum.

[ElHombre]

Actually both of you are wrong.

Evolution is NOT fact. Its a theory. It has undergone MANY tests and changes over the past century alone. That is not to say it is without merit and certainly the most reasonable theory of the time. It is, however, just a theory.

that is a common misunderstanding of the issue. while evolutionary theory has undergone changes, the basic underlying principle has gone unchanged. until a competing hypothosis is proven to more accurately gauge the series of changes that occur in life while also achieving the same results as the current theory, the current theory of evolution is the accepted one.


Intelligent Design has actually never TRULY been tested or disproved. Its simply been stated.

ID was a hypothosis which was tested against current theory and found wanting in large part becuse it cannot be proven. a hypothosis which cannot be tested is automatically a failure.

[walford]

...it takes no more faith to believe what I have written then to believe that this wonderful / awful world in which we live, is just some cosmic happenstance. If you care to be really honest, my guess is that you believe what you believe because it is what you want to believe. It fits the way you want to live and how you want to world to be. Your morality is dictating your theology.
Faith is an element and function of the mind.
It amazes me the amount of scorn that some of you hurl towards those of us who do not worship at the alter of science and humanism...Excellent point, but to teach faith as science is problematic at best, but the schools should not serve to undermine a given family's faith either. I'm sure that you will appreciate my solution (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1216044#post1216044) in an earlier thread on the same subject.

[Durandal]

that is a common misunderstanding of the issue.

Sorry, again I will say, evolution is NOT fact. Just the current theory, right or wrong. You claimed it to be fact. Which is JUST as false as claiming ID as theory.


ID was a hypothosis which was tested against current theory and found wanting in large part becuse it cannot be proven. a hypothosis which cannot be tested is automatically a failure.

Actually, it can be tested. It simply is so monumental in its process that no one is willing to undergo the monumental financial and time requirement to accomplish it.

[walford]

As a few others have said, faith and science are not mutualy exclusive. It is a simple fact that there is evidence of long-extinct species that certainly appear to be simpler versions of the current ones.

There are other remains of creatures that appear to have existed for quite some time, developed and then died out, leaving no progeny to the present time -- almost as if they were experiments that didn't work out. The farther down you go into the layers of rock, the remains of life forms found are simpler and more different from those of today.

Perhaps what we can deduce from these artifacts is that we should not hold fast to man-made dogma and instead consider the possibility that a process of development -- of living and non-living things -- over time can indeed be a Divine product.

That the physical processes through which life has developed are amenable to scientific study/analysis/theorization certainly is not a surrender to the notion that our existence is owing to some sort of mindless happenstance.

From a personal point of view -- having started out studying the life sciences before switching to the social sciences -- I can say that the more that I learn about Nature, the more I am in awe of the Divine.

[Durandal]

Perhaps what we can deduce from these artifacts is that we should not hold fast to man-made dogma and instead consider the possibility that a process of development -- of living and non-living things -- over time can indeed be a Divine product.

Till you come up with a scientific theory proving it though it stays out of the science curriculum.

Meanwhile, we'll take your and fisheye's concepts of origins and file 'em away with Douglas Adams' writtings. Because, SCIENTIFICALLY, that is where they belong.

[hypz]

It amazes me the amount of scorn that some of you hurl towards those of us who do not worship at the alter of science and humanism. I do not take it personally because I am sure you have run into some so modern day Pharasee or had some other negative experience that you associate with Christianity.


Howdy! Thanks for the ultra corny story. But your wrong.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/nhmag.html
Read "The Flaw in the Mouse Trap" By Kenneth R. Miller. My answer would just be reiterating Miller's argument.

[walford]

Perhaps what we can deduce from these artifacts is that we should not hold fast to man-made dogma and instead consider the possibility that a process of development -- of living and non-living things -- over time can indeed be a Divine product.Till you come up with a scientific theory proving it though it stays out of the science curriculum.Scientifically, Divinity is not amenable to proof. Given this doubt, we should not be taking the leap that this lack of evidence is then proof of non-existence. As I had argued in another thread (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57618&page=2), that is just as fallacious -- and intellectually dishonest. My point is that faith should allow for science. My answer to you is that science should also allow for faith.

The pulpit is no place to be offering faith as science. The laboratory is also no place to be postulating that by default Man is the Supreme being either.

[Durandal]

Scientifically, Divinity is not amenable to proof. Given this doubt, we should not be taking the leap that this lack of evidence is then proof of non-existence.

Read my responses man. No one is trying to prove or disprove god, a divine power(s) or lack there of.

Its simple.

Intelligent Design is NOT a Scientific Theory. It should not be contained within the curriculum of a SCIENCE course. You want to throw in a creationism chapter in a comparative religious studies course or Christian theology class, fine, that's cool.

Then I'll keep the white mice and the number 42 in the Science Fiction lit class.

[Durandal]

If Utopian/trendy secular ideology [which is no more 'objective' than faith] can be imposed upon children at taxpayer expense, parents should have the right to opt out.


They do. Its called home schooling or a private school.

However, this belief that teaching children without any tint of religious faith IS in fact what the founding fathers saw.

Unless that is, you can show me an modern argument that does not involve the teaching of a non-secular ideology that includes ALL faiths.

There is not one.

What there is a movement, not by all Christians, but a MINORITY, to force their views upon the rest of society.

Evolution can include god, the problem is that people think I should include god as well.

[walford]

They do. Its called home schooling or a private school.No, that doesn't cut it. If people of limited means are going to have their values undermined in government-run schools with the likes of Daddy's Roommate, then they should also be able to vote with their taxdollars to a school that provides an education that reinforces their values -- and that employers will reward with jobs.

As it is now, the NEA agenda has the advantage of government approval while the taxpayers must be forced to subsidize it while it is being foisted upon their children. In other words, a debatable values agenda is being given official status as the Correct Perspective on everything. That resembles the very thing that the Founding Fathers rebelled against.

[walford]

Read my responses man. No one is trying to prove or disprove god, a divine power(s) or lack there of...

...Intelligent Design is NOT a Scientific Theory. It should not be contained within the curriculum of a SCIENCE course.I did indeed read your responses, babe. If you'd properly comprehended my post, you would've already known that I advocated no such teaching of faith as science. You are having an argument with a Straw Man that you have constructed.

I stand by my MAIN POINT that faith and science are not mutually exclusive and further contend that the best solution to this and many other contentious issues with respect to the educaction of minors is vouchers.

[walford]

Read my responses man. No one is trying to prove or disprove god, a divine power(s) or lack there of...

...Intelligent Design is NOT a Scientific Theory. It should not be contained within the curriculum of a SCIENCE course.I did indeed read your responses, babe. If you'd properly comprehended my post, you would've already known that I advocated no such teaching of faith as science. You are having an argument with a Straw Man that you have constructed.

I stand by my MAIN POINT that faith and science are not mutually exclusive and further contend that the best solution to this and many other contentious issues with respect to the educaction of minors is vouchers.

[ed316]

Evolution

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/4396/awwa8a1do.jpg

[walford]

ELVISLUTION!! (http://www.elyrics.net/go/m/mojo-nixon-lyrics/elvis-is-everywhere-lyrics/)
http://www.diamondcomics.com/news/1999/10_11_99/elvislution.gif
...Everybody in outer space looks like Elvis.
Cause Elvis is a perfect being.
We are all moving in perfect peace and harmony towards Elvisness
Soon all will become Elvis.
Everything everywhere will be Elvis.
Why do you think they call it evolution anyway?
It's really Elvislution!
Elvislution!
Elvis is everywhere
Elvis is everything
Elvis is everybody
Elvis is still the king
Man o man
What I want you to see
Is that the big E's
Inside of you and me...

[Durandal]

If Utopian/trendy secular ideology [which is no more 'objective' than faith] can be imposed upon children at taxpayer expense, parents should have the right to opt out.


They do.

Its called a private religious education or home school.

[Belrick]

I stand by my MAIN POINT that faith and science are not mutually exclusive and further contend that the best solution to this and many other contentious issues with respect to the educaction of minors is vouchers.


Youre right. Religion and and science are not mutually exclusive.
But jewish religion and its power grabbing offshoots christianity and islam are from science.

Simply because those faiths make certain claims that science has already shown to be bullpucky (young earth, geocentrism, evolution etc). So in summary there maybe a God but christians never knew one from an infected ingrown toenail.

[Durandal]

That resembles the very thing that the Founding Fathers rebelled against.
[/FONT][/SIZE]

Ok, this conversation is done.

I simply cannot take you seriously anymore.

I'll agree to disagree.

[ElHombre]

I stand by my MAIN POINT that faith and science are not mutually exclusive and further contend that the best solution to this and many other contentious issues with respect to the educaction of minors is vouchers.

but how does one reconcile when one's faith says one thing about the world and research indicated that faith's conclusion is wrong? especially when the person has to take into consideration that their soul will be sent off to hell for not believing what had been written?

[ed316]

Christians-god made it
Muslims-Allah made it
Jews-Yahweh made it
Hindu-Shiva destroyed and made it...again
Buddhist-don't really know ther is a god, maybe maybe not

So which one is right?

[tsuri]

when the person has to take into consideration that their soul will be sent off to hell for not believing what had been written?

There is no hell in christian mythology. Hell comes from Hades and Hel.
Jehoshua ben Joseph died because we sinned or something. A Hell for Sinners would be pointless because it would be empty since god forgives "everything".
But came in handy to press money out of the population.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Christians-god made it
Muslims-Allah made it
Jews-Yahweh made it
Hindu-Shiva destroyed and made it...again
Buddhist-don't really know ther is a god, maybe maybe not

So which one is right?

Actually

Jewish, Christians and muslims worship the same god. They all share the same "phrophets" to a large extant. Hell Jesus is one of the most important people in Islam.

The difference is AKIAK is how the old testement has been interpreted and how different factions of early christianity seperated after the fall of rome.

[ed316]

Actually

Jewish, Christians and muslims worship the same god. They all share the same "phrophets" to a large extant. Hell Jesus is one of the most important people in Islam.

The difference is AKIAK is how the old testement has been interpreted and how different factions of early christianity seperated after the fall of rome.


So F-ing deep it's amazingrofl

[walford]

but how does one reconcile when one's faith says one thing about the world and research indicated that faith's conclusion is wrong? especially when the person has to take into consideration that their soul will be sent off to hell for not believing what had been written?
Christians-god made it
Muslims-Allah made it
Jews-Yahweh made it
Hindu-Shiva destroyed and made it...again
Buddhist-don't really know ther is a god, maybe maybe not

So which one is right?To the both of you: there are plenty of alternatives (http://utopia-unmasked.us/extext.html) to the cartoonish portrayals of all religions, creeds, theological systems, etc. that you have each set forth. I shan't defend any Straw Men that you may construct to portray that which you ridicule/oppose.

And I still maintain that it is possible to have faith and have no problem with the process of how life develops over time. It is also possible to teach the mechanics of how life develops w/o also undermining the students' faith.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

So F-ing deep it's amazingrofl

What the feck is that supposed to mean?

[ed316]

To the both of you: there are plenty of alternatives (http://utopia-unmasked.us/extext.html) to the cartoonish portrayals of all religions, creeds, theological systems, etc. that you have each set forth. I shan't defend any Straw Men that you may construct to portray that which you ridicule/oppose.

And I still maintain that it is possible to have faith and have no problem with the process of how life develops over time. It is also possible to teach the mechanics of how life develops w/o also undermining the students' faith.



Science in school
Faith in church

that wouldn't undermine anyones Idea.

[ed316]

What the feck is that supposed to mean?

sarcasm!!??

[walford]

Science in school
Faith in church

that wouldn't undermine anyones Idea.For some people, to have an education that is devoid/sterilized of faith would by default be presenting a given secular ideology as a hollow substitute. That would indeed be undermining. If parents wish to have their children's education steeped in faith, they should be free to do so, even if they are not wealthy enough to pay for it.

If we are going to be pro-choice here, let it be across-the-board and allow for an education of which the Illuminati would not approve as well.

[ed316]

For some people, to have an education that is devoid/sterilized of faith would by default be presenting a given secular ideology as a hollow substitute. That would indeed be undermining. If parents wish to have their children's education steeped in faith, they should be free to do so, even if they are not wealthy enough to pay for it.

If we are going to be pro-choice here, let it be across-the-board and allow for an education of which the Illuminati would not approve as well.


What happen to seperation of church and state? Is it justFounding Father BS then?

[walford]

What happen to seperation of church and state? Is it justFounding Father BS then?The Founding Fathers did not intend for the government to protect people from being exposed to religion. There is no Wall of Separation between church and state in the Constitution. The First Amendment protects people's right to practice their religion and not have the State select one for us.

Allowing people to choose under which value system that they will have their children educated -- including a religious one -- does not establish a religion. Of course not! Instead, having the government force Heather's Two Mommies down their children's throat clearly undermines people's ability to practice their religion as they see fit.

The NEA certainly has a dogmatic secular agenda (http://utopia-unmasked.us/***-school.html) that is arguably a State-approved value system that the Founding Fathers would have a big problem being foisted upon children at taxpayers' expense. Parents should be entitled to escape from that if they choose.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The point these scientist are making is that Intelligent Design should not be taught in a science class.

That's what the big argument is. A religious based idea is being tought in science classes.

[ed316]

The Founding Fathers did not intend for the government to protect people from being exposed to religion. There is no Wall of Separation between church and state in the Constitution. The First Amendment protects people's right to practice their religion and not have the State select one for us.

Allowing people to choose under which value system that they will have their children educated -- including a religious one -- does not establish a religion. Of course not! Instead, having the government force Heather's Two Mommies down their children's throat clearly undermines people's ability to practice their religion as they see fit.

The NEA certainly has a dogmatic secular agenda (http://utopia-unmasked.us/***-school.html) that is arguably a State-approved value system that the Founding Fathers would have a big problem being foisted upon children at taxpayers' expense. Parents should be entitled to escape from that if they choose.



Instead of a scientific theory like evolution, creationism which is faith not theory should be taught in school and is totaly compatible with the thinking of today? Yeah right, this is nothing but a handful of evangelicals being brazen after the Bush reelection to impose their own faith. Another words this is just prostlitising.

[walford]

Instead of a scientific theory like evolution, creationism which is faith not theory should be taught in school and is totaly compatible with the thinking of today? Yeah right, this is nothing but a handful of evangelicals being brazen after the Bush reelection to impose their own faith. Another words this is just prostlitising.Advocating that parents be given the right to choose what value system should be taught to their own children is 'imposing faith' while supporting the continued monopoly that the NEA has upon children's minds is some sort of intellectual freedom? Truly an Orwellian twist.

[ed316]

Advocating that parents be given the right to choose what value system should be taught to their own children is 'imposing faith' while supporting the continued monopoly that the NEA has upon children's minds is some sort of intellectual freedom? Truly an Orwellian twist.


No matter what, it's still bringing religion into the classroom.

[walford]

No matter what, it's still bringing religion into the classroom.If Utopian/trendy secular ideology [which is no more 'objective' than faith] can be imposed upon children at taxpayer expense, parents should have the right to opt out.

[walford]

If Utopian/trendy secular ideology [which is no more 'objective' than faith] can be imposed upon children at taxpayer expense, parents should have the right to opt out.They do. Its called home schooling or a private school. However, this belief that teaching children without any tint of religious faith IS in fact what the founding fathers saw. Unless that is, you can show me an modern argument that does not involve the teaching of a non-secular ideology that includes ALL faiths. There is not one. What there is a movement, not by all Christians, but a MINORITY, to force their views upon the rest of society. Evolution can include god, the problem is that people think I should include god as well.No, that doesn't cut it. If people of limited means are going to have their values undermined in government-run schools with the likes of Daddy's Roommate, then they should also be able to vote with their taxdollars to a school that provides an education that reinforces their values -- and that employers will reward with jobs.

As it is now, the NEA agenda has the advantage of government approval while the taxpayers must be forced to subsidize it while it is being foisted upon their children. In other words, a debatable values agenda is being given official status as the Correct Perspective on everything. That resembles the very thing that the Founding Fathers rebelled against. Ok, this conversation is done. I simply cannot take you seriously anymore. I'll agree to disagree.You cannot 'take me seriously' because I have an opposing point of view? Not too arrogant.

The fact is, the NEA's OPINION-based, social engineering-oriented agenda has been foisted upon children in government-run schools for far too long.

The status quo is in fact a "MINORITY [forcing its] views upon the rest of society." This 'home/private school' option is a canard that neatly evades the fact that a certain ideology enjoys the advantage of government approval while only those who have the means are allowed to escape -- but are still forced to subsidize the Established point of view being imposed upon everyone else.

I advocate for parents having the option of choosing what sort of schools will get their tax dollars, tempered by the valuations that potential employers will put upon diplomas.

I am crying my eyes out that you don't take me seriously for that.

[Belrick]

You seem to lack the mentality that science should be taught in science classes. What next? Give parents the option to have physical education taught in math classes?

Keep faith in sheep dens/churchs etc.

[walford]

You seem to lack the mentality that science should be taught in science classes. What next? Give parents the option to have physical education taught in math classes?

Keep faith in sheep dens/churchs etc.You seem to lack the mentality to comprehend a school system that is not an NEA-devised monolith -- and we've seen how successful that's been over the past generation or so, haven't we? Rather than characerizing a point of view, why don't you try being intellectually honest and engage it? Here is what I advocate in explicit detail [see the very bottom for the specific recommendations]: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1216044#post1216044