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Nizark
02-02-2004, 06:16 PM
From the New York Times article linked to below:

February 2, 2004
Wolfowitz Gets an Upfront Message From Unhappy Iraqis
By THOM SHANKER

KIRKUK, Iraq, Feb. 2 — Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz, on a mission to highlight successes in the new Iraq, heard first-hand today of the ethnic and religious tensions that are vastly complicating American efforts for an orderly return of sovereignty to a new government in Baghdad by July 1.

At a session with Kirkuk‘s town council, Mr. Wolfowitz sat through heartfelt complaints and lengthy lectures that Arabs here are mistreated by Kurds, that Shiite Muslims will settle for nothing less than direct elections and that local militias with no allegiance to the central government are frightening local citizens.

Undeterred, Mr. Wolfowitz, the intellectual architect of the Bush administration‘s policy on Iraq, said that "all Iraq was the victim" of Saddam Hussein‘s "torturers, sadists and murders" and that all had an equal stake in cooperating to build a new and democratic Iraq.

He said that the leaders‘ concerns can be resolved by strengthening new Iraqi security forces under the discipline of a representational central government, and that justice and human rights for all ethnic and religious groups must be guaranteed, regardless of the composition of Iraq‘s new government.

And Maj. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, commander of the Fourth Infantry Division responsible for northern Iraq, pointed out that these very town council members had been selected by a caucus managed by his troops, and not by direct election.

"As an interim government, it has worked extremely well," General Odierno said.

A member of the town council who identified himself as an Arab and Sunni Muslim, Ghassan Al-Assi, said that Kurdish political groups were "enforcing their ideas" and had "voided" Arab news media and economic opportunity in the region.

Of local Kurdish militias, he said, "They are scaring me."

Ismail Oboutti, Kirkuk‘s director of employment, who identified himself as an Arab and Shiite Muslim, told Mr. Wolfowitz, "Everyone on the street wants direct elections."

Current American policy maintains that it is premature for direct elections but that those elections would follow a constitutional convention.

Saad Al Deen Ameen said he felt "lonely" as the only ethnic Turkoman on the town council.

After the session, which offered in microcosm many of the problems bedeviling American policy here, Mr. Wolfowitz said that "the militia problem" could be resolved when they were disarmed and demobilized, "but not in a vacuum." That is why, he said, the administration is accelerating the growth of new Iraqi police and civil defense forces.

He called for the peaceful resolution of property claims from the hundreds of thousands of displaced Iraqis returning to their homes, which sometimes are occupied by others.

And on the delicate topic of scheduling elections, he vowed "maximum participation," but said elections themselves would not settle the concerns expressed at the meeting.

The people of Iraq, Mr. Wolfowitz said, must come to believe that they will be treated justly regardless of who wins the elections.

Earlier today, Mr. Wolfowitz went on patrol in Mosul with troops driving the Army‘s newest fighting vehicle, called the Stryker, a lightly armored, wheeled infantry transport. Critics have said the Stryker‘s armor, built to withstand a 14.5-millimeter round, may be unable to stand up to even the low-intensity guerrilla threat in Iraq.

Commanders ordered the Stryker‘s defenses to be upgraded, and a metal cage called "slat armor" has been bolted to all 300 Strykers in Iraq, making the armored car look like a rhino in a cage — only it carries the cage with it.

One Stryker received the ultimate test even as Mr. Wolfowitz was touring Mosul, when it was it was struck by a rocket-propelled grenade on the other side of the city in an ambush that senior officers said had nothing to do with the deputy defense secretary‘s visit.

Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, the incoming commander of coalition forces in northern Iraq, said that, as designed, the slat armor forced the grenade to detonate 18 inches away from the Stryker‘s skin, diffusing the blast. None of the troops inside the vehicle were injured, he said, and the Stryker itself sustained only minor damage and continued its patrol.

Although Kiowa helicopters were summoned to track the insurgents, the attackers escaped.

Maj. Gen. David H. Petraeus, commander of the 101st Airborne Division, is rotating his troops home from the war, having lost 60 troops; another 500 received Purple Hearts for their wounds.

General Petraeus has built a reputation in recent months for sending his troops across northern Iraq with a rifle in one hand and a wrench in the other, and success stories from among his development projects were on display today for Mr. Wolfowitz.

The general and Mr. Wolfowitz attended the dedication of a housing project planned and managed by Army engineers.

Called "Village of Hope," the new complex provides homes for 18 families representing a cross-section of the region‘s ethnic diversity of Arabs, Kurds and Turks, among others. The complex was designed and managed by Army engineers, who taught Iraqis to carry out future construction.



Looks like that cage deal works against RPG's![/b]

Magua
02-02-2004, 06:29 PM
It's interesting that the US Army used an old and simple method to bypass some of the Strykers weaknesses. I remember seeing the same concept applied to patrol boats in photos from the Vietnam War. Maybe someone has pictures.

mustamato
02-02-2004, 06:34 PM
Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, the incoming commander of coalition forces in northern Iraq, said that, as designed, the slat armor forced the grenade to detonate 18 inches away from the Stryker‘s skin, diffusing the blast. None of the troops inside the vehicle were injured, he said, and the Stryker itself sustained only minor damage and continued its patrol.

Yeah seem to work. Nothing new under the sun of course. But still interesting.
I remember a debate on this forum (on the Stryker platoon pics-thread) where
someone claimed that the cages were intended to short circuit the electrical
fuze rather than to make it detonate too early as I said. Feels good to be right :)

http://www.rasuli.com/Afghanistan%20Pictures/photos/heratparade12.jpg
Afghani tank with cages

radon
02-02-2004, 06:53 PM
Wolfowitz can now proudly say he has combat experience rofl

Mr. Nielsen
02-02-2004, 07:01 PM
Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, the incoming commander of coalition forces in northern Iraq, said that, as designed, the slat armor forced the grenade to detonate 18 inches away from the Stryker‘s skin, diffusing the blast. None of the troops inside the vehicle were injured, he said, and the Stryker itself sustained only minor damage and continued its patrol.

Yeah seem to work. Nothing new under the sun of course.

And even earlier, wwii russian tank:

http://ef.1939-1945.net/scans/tr001_009_is2.jpg

Mr. Nielsen
02-02-2004, 07:05 PM
...someone claimed that the cages were intended to short circuit the electrical
fuze rather than to make it detonate too early as I said. Feels good to be right :)

Yes, electric armour against shaped charges is still a long way from being fielded.

Seoulstriker
02-02-2004, 07:44 PM
Wolfowitz can now proudly say he has combat experience rofl

actually, if you can get past the verbal mumbo jumbo in the text, i think he was in the same city and time when a stryker was hit. :|

radon
02-02-2004, 07:47 PM
reading mphotos at this time is not good. didnt read that thing :oops:

California Joe
02-02-2004, 07:56 PM
Wolfowitz is a non elected person running the government. Nice.

UkrainianAmerican
02-02-2004, 08:07 PM
Wolfowitz is a non elected person running the government. Nice.
?

George W. Bush
02-02-2004, 09:08 PM
Wolfowitz is visiting U.S. Army personnel.

Of course the Muslim fighters couldn't resist an opportunity to try to knock off an important Jew.

California Joe
02-02-2004, 09:13 PM
Sorry, clarification, he's a man of incredible influence advising our elected President. Who may be high. ;)

UkrainianAmerican
02-02-2004, 09:30 PM
Sorry, clarification, he's a man of incredible influence advising our elected President. Who may be high. ;)
LOL, you cant be serious. Hes a DEPUTY to Rumsfeld, so if one of them controls the prez its Rummy.

Durandal
02-03-2004, 12:30 AM
I remember a debate on this forum (on the Stryker platoon pics-thread) where someone claimed that the cages were intended to short circuit the electrical fuze rather than to make it detonate too early as I said. Feels good to be right :)

Actually, technically, both comments/arguments are/were correct. There were several articles out dealing with both systems both of which were being considered.

They seem to be using the style you discussed (I assume, since I was not part of the conversation).

I posted a rather large number of images of the new venetian Stryker armor in Iraq here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=136543#136543

Cheers!

ArmedPacifist
02-03-2004, 12:35 AM
Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, the incoming commander of coalition forces in northern Iraq, said that, as designed, the slat armor forced the grenade to detonate 18 inches away from the Stryker‘s skin, diffusing the blast. None of the troops inside the vehicle were injured, he said, and the Stryker itself sustained only minor damage and continued its patrol.

Yeah seem to work. Nothing new under the sun of course.

And even earlier, wwii russian tank:

http://ef.1939-1945.net/scans/tr001_009_is2.jpg

Germans made the same modification on their tanks aswell.

AFG
02-03-2004, 03:48 AM
which is better, the metal slab one in the russians pic or the cage? i m guessing the cage

George W. Bush
02-03-2004, 03:57 AM
It looks like the shaped charge warhead can go thru the slab skin WW2 POS so my vote is with the Stryker cage.

AFG
02-03-2004, 04:39 AM
how bout a modern day armor slab (if there's a thing like that created). I still think though the cages would be able to last longer.

hood
02-03-2004, 08:12 AM
Makes you wonder if they're going to start putting that on bradleys and other vehicles. Here's also the 2 pics that were posted a while back.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/2nd_Infantry_Division-Stryker_Platoon

Eddie
02-03-2004, 11:28 AM
Yeah seem to work. Nothing new under the sun of course. But still interesting.
I remember a debate on this forum (on the Stryker platoon pics-thread) where
someone claimed that the cages were intended to short circuit the electrical
fuze rather than to make it detonate too early as I said. Feels good to be right :)

I was among the guys who said it's primary intention is not to predetonate the warhead but to disable the warhead. Sure the slat armour work that way...

If the slat armour detonates the warhead I cannot believe the some 20 inch spacing between the slat and the main armour reduces the the warhead penetration so significantly that the main armour would hold up. At least when we are talking about the Stryker and it's supposedly very thin armour and on the other hand even older RGP-ammo (PG grenades) will probably penetrate some 300mm of steel.

The PG-7 grenade is equipped with a pressure activated contact fuse in the nose of the grenade. Now if the nose doesn't hit the bar the rest of the grenade probably will so the fuse won't necessarily work. If nothing else the impact would probably deform the cone and greatly reduce the effectiveness of the HEAT effect.

Just one other thing. I wonder if this article is from the same attack:

http://www.tribnet.com/news/iraq/story/4688930p-4641404c.html

MOSUL, Iraq - The Army's new Stryker vehicle had its first combat encounter with a rocket-propelled grenade Friday.

The round struck the front of the vehicle above its slat armor cage, cutting a hose inside the engine compartment. The vehicle commander suffered a superficial cut near his nose, officials said.
...

Friday's strike didn't answer the question of whether the slat armor will work as advertised and diffuse the impact of the RPG before it strikes the body of the vehicle.

But at least on this day, the RPG strike wasn't the deadly event that many feared.

The grenade was fired from close range - less than 300 feet - and struck above the cage at the front of the Stryker, battalion officials said. Photographs of the damage showed finger-sized holes near the hinge of the armored hatch that covers the engine compartment.

Seoulstriker
02-03-2004, 11:34 AM
i'm just thinking that if the RPG goes between the slats, it won't be able to go through, so it will get stuck there and not detonate, or something. just a thought.

Herrmannek
02-03-2004, 11:44 AM
Like ussualy right is on both sides...

https://hosta.atsc.eustis.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/accp/in0546/lsn2.htm

ANTIARMOR WEAPONS, PART I

IN0546, Edition B

April 1996

United States Army Infantry School
Fort Benning, GA 31905-5593


....(3) Limitations. The RPG-7V requires a well-trained and experienced gunner to accurately estimate ranges and lead distances for moving targets. Crosswinds as low as seven miles an hour can complicate the gunner's estimate and reduce first-round-hit probability to 50 percent at ranges beyond 180 meters. An RPG projectile screen of chain-link fence will completely neutralize 50 percent of the rounds and degrade the penetrating capability of the remaining rounds. Reloading and reaiming the AT grenade launcher takes a minimum of 14 seconds. The RPG-7V has a conspicuous signature: flash, smoke, and noise. The unprotected gunner is extremely vulnerable to suppressive fires....

mustamato
02-03-2004, 02:00 PM
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type98_1.jpg
Chinas newest MBT Type 98, note the storing racks/cages

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type96_1.jpg
and on the Type 96

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type90_1.jpg
and on the Type 90-II

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type88_7.jpg
and on the Type 80-II

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type59_1.jpg
and on the Type 59

XASA
02-03-2004, 02:14 PM
During WWII, the Russians also utilized bed springs welded to their vehicles to defeat Panzerfausts. The Germans used metal slabs affixed to the sides of their tanks and self-propelled assault guns to protect them against the bazooka's shaped charge. In Vietnam, armored vehicles carried a roll of chain link fence that was set up around the perimeter whenever the vehicles established a defensive position.

Looks ugly as hell but it works.

Argyll
02-03-2004, 02:19 PM
I believe the Israeli's still put this applique armour on their M113 based vehicles,also to great effect IIRC

Durandal
02-03-2004, 06:49 PM
If the slat armour detonates the warhead I cannot believe the some 20 inch spacing between the slat and the main armour reduces the the warhead penetration so significantly that the main armour would hold up. At least when we are talking about the Stryker and it's supposedly very thin armour and on the other hand even older RGP-ammo (PG grenades) will probably penetrate some 300mm of steel.

I have to disagree here. HEAT rounds (Shaped charges) are pretty ineffective IF their point of contact is not against the armor or is deflected (iin the case of reactive...a proper term would be passive reactive I think...armor). I would have to talk to my uncle to get the specifics (if yu want joules of energy loss per millimeter, but the loss is significant....trust me.

These are a great, often used, easy to fabricate, method to deleat RPGS.

RomanS
02-03-2004, 07:23 PM
In the first weeks of fighting in Grozny 1995, our guys would dress up BTRs and BMPs witha a rail cages as well.

It worked great against VOG-25 launched by Chechens.

It would detonate before getting to the armour.

Eddie
02-04-2004, 02:45 AM
I have to disagree here. HEAT rounds (Shaped charges) are pretty ineffective IF their point of contact is not against the armor or is deflected (iin the case of reactive...a proper term would be passive reactive I think...armor). I would have to talk to my uncle to get the specifics (if yu want joules of energy loss per millimeter, but the loss is significant....trust me.

These are a great, often used, easy to fabricate, method to deleat RPGS.

We once conducted a test using the 66mm LAW. The first target was a single about 5inch steel plate which the LAW successfully penetrated. Then we added a other steel plate (something like 0,5 inch thick) some 10 inches from the original target. Yet again successful penetration.

Then we added yet another steel plate (again some 0,5 thick) some 10 inches from the other two plates and filled the space between the "main" plate and the second with sand and broken glass (trying to create a homemade composite armour). So the warhead would have to penetrate first the 0,5 inch steel, then 10 inches of air, 0,5 inch steel, then 10 inches of sand and glass and finally 5 inches of steel. Overall thickess of the "armour" was some 2 feet. This time the LAW warhead did not penetrate. When we dismantled the target, we found out that the jet had travelled through both thinner plates, the glass/sand and buried itself into the main plate. I'm afraid I can't recall the exact thicknesses and distances because this happened quite a while ago.

I agree the shaped charge loses a lot of it's penetration if it detonates before the main armour, but I feel that the distance must be more than 10-20 inches for the reduction to be significant enough (for the Stryker). I wouldn't talk about reactive armour, the principle is totally different. Just some thoughts...

mustamato
02-04-2004, 03:00 AM
I agree the shaped charge loses a lot of it's penetration if it detonates before the main armour, but I feel that the distance must be more than 10-20 inches for the reduction to be significant enough (for the Stryker). I wouldn't talk about reactive armour, the principle is totally different. Just some thoughts...

But it´s 18 inches on the Stryker. Enough? Of course it can be more, but
it must have some manouverability left in built up areas. And it was quite
interesting to read about that test of yours.

"18 kick-ass inches = 45.72 sleazy centimeters" according to this site:

http://www.metricsucks.com/

Eddie
02-04-2004, 03:09 AM
But it´s 18 inches on the Stryker. Enough? Of course it can be more, but it must have some manouverability left in built up areas. And it was quite interesting to read about that test of yours.

I don't know... I must ask the Army to give me one for testing... I hope it is enough and works also that way. But again I repeat that I don't think predetonating grenades is the primary mission of slat armour, but rendering them inoperative is. The secondary mission of slat armour can be predetonating the warheads because of course it reduces the penetration, but enough? Again, just my thoughts...

Luxembourger
02-04-2004, 02:08 PM
101st Airborne Division, is rotating his troops home from the war, having lost 60 troops; another 500 received Purple Hearts for their wounds.



:( :( :( :( :( :( :( RIP