Officials: U.S. pressure puts jobs at risk

[Moledet]

American pressure to annul arms deals could have severe implications, senior defense industry officials tell Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper. Defense establishment now wary about offering advanced Israeli systems to overseas clients
Arieh Egozy


Israeli defense industries would be forced to dismiss a large number of workers should the United States continue to veto arms exports, senior defense industry officials told Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.


"The government caved in to American pressure, and now the pressure will only grow," one official said. "They're really chocking us."


However, a defense source says Israel is at fault for the unpleasant reality because it ignored American sensitivities for a long time or attempted to circumvent them.


"Officials in Washington felt they were cheated, they stayed at their jobs for many years, and they have a long memory," the source said.


In an effort to fully resolve the crisis with the U.S. over the exportation of military goods to China, the defense establishment is currently completing the formation of a new monitoring mechanism that would oversea defense exports. According to the recommendations formulated, deals would have to be approved by a body that is not part of the Defense Ministry.

Major layoffs feared

In 2002, heavy American pressures prevented the finalization of a huge, USD 160 million deal to provide electronic combat systems to Greek F-16 fighter jets. The deal was curbed after the Americans pressed Greece to select an American system instead.


Following the cancellation of that deal, as well as the China sales, defense officials are now wary of offering advanced Israeli systems to other countries for fear of raising America's ire.


Meanwhile, the IDF has nearly stopped purchases from local defense industries due to budget constraints, with officials saying they would not be able to continue providing jobs for 30,000 employees in the long run.


I can't understand the US, if they keep on going this way they will just create a large anti-american population in the only place in the ME that actualy likes them.
And then weapons will be sold to any country that isn't hostile to Israel and no technology will be transfered to the US.

[jedisponge]

I can't understand the US, if they keep on going this way they will just create a large anti-american population in the only place in the ME that actualy likes them.
And then weapons will be sold to any country that isn't hostile to Israel and no technology will be transfered to the US.
:roll:
Stop being so nationalistic about something the US government has every right to do what they want.

Would you want advanced technology to fall into the hands of Iran or Palestinian? Would you do whatever it takes to stop it?

[Moledet]

:roll:
Stop being so nationalistic about something the US government has every right to do what they want.

Would you want advanced technology to fall into the hands of Iran or Palestinian? Would you do whatever it takes to stop it?
Yeah, because Greece is a real threat to the US, so it had to force us to cancel a 150 million dollars deal with them. So is Venezuela that somehow has your warplanes but is ofcourse the enemy (and we lost another quarter million dollars).
Even though our current politicans have no balls the elections are near and the atitude towards the US might drasticaly change over a year (ask France).

BTW, I have no problem to cancel those deals if you pay us real cash for every deal you wish to cancel, this is capitalism after all.

[jedisponge]

Yeah, because Greece is a real threat to the US, so it had to force us to cancel a 150 million dollars deal with them. So is Venezuela that somehow has your warplanes but is ofcourse the enemy (and we lost another quarter million dollars).
Even though our current politicans have no balls the elections are near and the atitude towards the US might drasticaly change over a year (ask France).

BTW, I have no problem to cancel those deals if you pay us real cash for every deal you wish to cancel, this is capitalism after all.
You do realize that things change in the world right? Just because a country was an ally in the past does not mean it'll be an ally in the future. Need I dust out a history book and show you?

Second of all, by using American technology you agreed to the terms set forth by whatever deals that were made. Why are you complaining when your policy makers themselves enslaved them to those agreements?

[Moledet]

You do realize that things change in the world right? Just because a country was an ally in the past does not mean it'll be an ally in the future. Need I dust out a history book and show you?

Second of all, by using American technology you agreed to the terms set forth by whatever deals that were made. Why are you complaining when your policy makers themselves enslaved them to those agreements?
How's Venezuela an enemy if you buy oil from them? And how's Greece an enemy if they are in NATO and an american company later upgraded their planes?

IMI sells Isaeli technology only (and so do the other Israeli firms), products that they developed in their own labs has nothing to do with the american technology and the proof is that usualy they are superior.

I think you forget that this relationship is based on interests, and if you hurt our interests the relationship won't last long.

[Omaha]

Have you heard ANYTHING Chavez has said in the last 6 months??

Just because we buy his oil (which means he can't stop selling it to us, he will bankrupt himself) doesn't mean we are friends.

And Greece isn't an enemy, but when you buy our stuff, you agree to stipulations that activate after the deal is done. You signed the dotted line.



"I think you forget that this relationship is based on interests, and if you hurt our interests the relationship won't last long."

We obviously don't care.

[Jobu]

Hey Israel, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Moledet]

Have you heard ANYTHING Chavez has said in the last 6 months??

Just because we buy his oil (which means he can't stop selling it to us, he will bankrupt himself) doesn't mean we are friends.

And Greece isn't an enemy, but when you buy our stuff, you agree to stipulations that activate after the deal is done. You signed the dotted line.



"I think you forget that this relationship is based on interests, and if you hurt our interests the relationship won't last long."

We obviously don't care.
Chavez was elected because of your atitude towards Venezuela, you caused the mess and you don't have to buy the oil.

Greece wanted Israel to upgrade their F16s, how the hell does that has to do with american technology? It's pure Israeli technology that we install in the IAF's jets that the Greece wanted for their Jets.

You obviously do, that's the reason you did try to have better relations with us over the years. You are frigthend that we will sell weapons to China because both of us know what are Israel's abilities in researching and developing.

[jedisponge]

Chavez was elected because of your atitude towards Venezuela, you caused the mess and you don't have to buy the oil.

Greece wanted Israel to upgrade their F16s, how the hell does that has to do with american technology? It's pure Israeli technology that we install in the IAF's jets that the Greece wanted for their Jets.

You obviously do, that's the reason you did try to have better relations with us over the years. You are frigthend that we will sell weapons to China because both of us know what are Israel's abilities in researching and developing.
Seriously, there's no point in going on anymore because you're nationalism is ignoring everything we say. You're obviously set in your beliefs and you're not going to change them. Forget about Chavez. What the hell does he have to do with Israel, the US and technology transfer? Get your head together and keep your head focused what your original discussion.

I said it before and I'll say it again: by using American technology you agreed to the terms set forth by whatever deals that were made. Why are you complaining when your policy makers themselves enslaved them to those agreements? Case closed.

[Lerclair]

Nationalism rang from both sides... obviously set in both your beliefs and both are not going to change them. In my opinion, it seems one side is more reasonable than the other..

[Moledet]

Seriously, there's no point in going on anymore because you're nationalism is ignoring everything we say. You're obviously set in your beliefs and you're not going to change them. Forget about Chavez. What the hell does he have to do with Israel, the US and technology transfer? Get your head together and keep your head focused what your original discussion.

I said it before and I'll say it again: by using American technology you agreed to the terms set forth by whatever deals that were made. Why are you complaining when your policy makers themselves enslaved them to those agreements? Case closed.
So every country that buys US equipment can't sell its own technology to other countries? What are you talking about?
Israeli firms do not sell products that contain american technology, it's pure Israeli technology.

[Pille1234]

So every country that buys US equipment can't sell its own technology to other countries? What are you talking about?
Israeli firms do not sell products that contain american technology, it's pure Israeli technology.
It doesn't really matter what equipment you're selling. The USA has that leverage and they use it. As long as you (your government) is willing to accept their money there's nothing you can do about it.

[Kekkonen]

In 2002, heavy American pressures prevented the finalization of a huge, USD 160 million deal to provide electronic combat systems to Greek F-16 fighter jets. The deal was curbed after the Americans pressed Greece to select an American system instead.

It´s things like this that makes me wonder why countries stick with American equipment. Take the JSF for example, most countries will not be able to basic data needed for future upgrades, so they must buy the upgrades from USA. Yeah sure it´s US taxpayers money at work.

But countries like for example Norway could just as well buy something else that is 4th generation and good enough for peace-keeping/enforcing missions over Afghanistan/whatever as the JSF will ever be, for example Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter or whatever. And they would with the deal get access to more technology and would become less dependable on what the Americans want. With the mentioned 4th generation fighters there will soon also be European missiles available, while the Sidewinder/AMRAAM-combo is more or less NATO-standard now.


"The government caved in to American pressure, and now the pressure will only grow," one official said. "They're really chocking us."

Chocked about not getting technology for billions of dollars for free anymore? Bo-hoo.

[Moledet]

It´s things like this that makes me wonder why countries stick with American equipment. Take the JSF for example, most countries will not be able to basic data needed for future upgrades, so they must buy the upgrades from USA. Yeah sure it´s US taxpayers money at work.

But countries like for example Norway could just as well buy something else that is 4th generation and good enough for peace-keeping/enforcing missions over Afghanistan/whatever as the JSF will ever be, for example Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter or whatever. And they would with the deal get access to more technology and would become less dependable on what the Americans want. With the mentioned 4th generation fighters there will soon also be European missiles available, while the Sidewinder/AMRAAM-combo is more or less NATO-standard now.



Chocked about not getting technology for billions of dollars for free anymore? Bo-hoo.
They should do like Israel, while the jet is developed we develope our own systems for it and we recieve the plane in its most basic form without all the hardware and software.

The technology transfer on both sides didn't stop, so they are not choked from that, they are choked because they aren't allowed to sell any of their products which is rediculous.

[IDFM203]

My take is that yes the U.S. has every right to put pressure on Israel to stop selling arms to other countries for any reason that they see fit.

I say this for they give 3 plus billion a year in “aid” and while besides forcing Israel to spend that “aid” back in the U.S. thus benefiting their own arms industry, they also get to use their leverage that they have as a result of that 3 plus billion.

......and yes 3 plus billion a year does buy the U.S. major leverage.

I think Moledet and other Israelis need to understand this reality and accept it.

Now I do want to point out that the U.S. is very hypocritical in that it sells arms to nations that a lot of Israelis consider to be their enemy not to mention that in some cases, it puts pressure on Israel not to sell arms more to really foster its own arms to the nation that Israel had planned to sell with.

That is why I am in strong favor of totally discontinuing that 3 billion in “aid” that Israel receives and have been saying so for years now.

That doesn’t mean that Israel cannot purchase arms from the U.S. as other nations do but I simply feel that this “free” money that Israel gets isn’t really “free” at all and is in fact now become more of a detriment then really a true benefit.

Shalom :)

[Kekkonen]

That is why I am in strong favor of totally discontinuing that 3 billion in “aid” that Israel receives and have been saying so for years now.

That´s a lot of money for a small country like Israel. I assume discontinuing that aid would mean that your military would need to be down-sized? Although I don´t see how that would be a problem, it´s not like you need an Air Force of that size really etc.

[Moledet]

My take is that yes the U.S. has every right to put pressure on Israel to stop selling arms to other countries for any reason that they see fit.

I say this for they give 3 plus billion a year in “aid” and while besides forcing Israel to spend that “aid” back in the U.S. thus benefiting their own arms industry, they also get to use their leverage that they have as a result of that 3 plus billion.

......and yes 3 plus billion a year does buy the U.S. major leverage.

I think Moledet and other Israelis need to understand this reality and accept it.

Now I do want to point out that the U.S. is very hypocritical in that it sells arms to nations that a lot of Israelis consider to be their enemy not to mention that in some cases, it puts pressure on Israel not to sell arms more to really foster its own arms to the nation that Israel had planned to sell with.

That is why I am in strong favor of totally discontinuing that 3 billion in “aid” that Israel receives and have been saying so for years now.

That doesn’t mean that Israel cannot purchase arms from the U.S. as other nations do but I simply feel that this “free” money that Israel gets isn’t really “free” at all and is in fact now become more of a detriment then really a true benefit.

Shalom :)

They are obligated to give us the 3 billion dollars as part of the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel and Jordan and Israel. If they disobey it than the agreement is off.
As the other guy said, "your policy makers themselves enslaved them to those agreements".

Kekkonen, the 3 billion dollars are nothing, we can sign deals with China for over 5 billion dollars a year so I doubt our army will suffer from such a decission. If they purchase Israeli weapons ofcourse they will be depended on us for upgrades so our income will likely increase.

[IDFM203]

Well yes that is a decent amount of money to give up, though lets not forget that while Israel is a small nation, its economy is well developed and certainly should not be thought of as it used to be (a nation that simply exported oranges etc..etc. ;) ).

I have not done the exact research in a little while though on memory, the economy is $120 billion per year (give or take a few bill…) and it spends around 8 or 9 billion a year on defense, which out of that is 2.5 billion (the other billion is not spent on defense) that comes from the U.S.

So yes it would be a hit to the defense budget no two ways about, however, I do think that Israel as its economy stands now (and how it has been for a number of years now) can more then make up for it, not to mention that this will now free up Israel to spend more of its defense budget on its own large world class arms market (which also will help further the economy with more jobs and more innovations etc..etc..) to quip its military and only spend what it truly needs (and cant produce) on U.S. arms.

Also, this now frees up the Israeli arms industry to compete in more markets.

Lastly and more importantly, while I fully respect the U.S. and I feel that most Israelis would always have a special place for the U.S. and all that it stands for (as indeed both nations do share a lot of the same values, though that is for another subject), the leverage that the U.S. has for years exerted on Israel on behalf of its own arms industry or even politically on behalf of the “Arabist” state department (and the nations that the U.S. has huge oil interested in, in the ME) is something that I feel causes great harm to Israel and its that leverage that I do feel makes the 3 plus billion in “aid” no longer worth it and that is why I say that Israel should now completely do away with!!

Of course, Israel and the U.S. should remain allies and freinds though on more of a friendly nation to nation basis and not on one nation “buying” the others leverage as it has been doing now for sometime.

As for the air force comment, well I do feel that Israel needs to maintain an AF of the size that it currently has and I feel it can manage to keep to or close to the same level without the 2.5 billion that it receives from the U.S.

Shalom :)

[IDFM203]

They are obligated to give us the 3 billion dollars as part of the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel and Jordan and Israel. If they disobey it than the agreement is off.
As the other guy said, "your policy makers themselves enslaved them to those agreements".

Well personally I think those agreements with Egyp cost Israel far more then was worth it without it…(but that is a whole other subject and not meant for this thread).

You say the U.S. owes Israel, well any American would argue that he should not owe Israel a dime for signing a peace deal with a nation that it was in conflict in……The fact is that the U.S. perhaps threw the “aid” in as an incentive though ultimately even I don’t think the U.S. owes it simply because Israel made a stupid deal with a nation that it had a conflict in.

Anyways, whether they owe it or not, still, that “aid” comes with the fact that the U.S. now has tons of leverage on Israel and well as I have been explaining, I simply don’t feel its worth it anymore, don’t you agree?

Shalom :)

[Moledet]

Well personally I think those agreements with Egyp cost Israel far more then was worth it without it…(but that is a whole other subject and not meant for this thread).

You say the U.S. owes Israel, well any American would argue that he should not owe Israel a dime for signing a peace deal with a nation that it was in conflict in……The fact is that the U.S. perhaps threw the “aid” in as an incentive though ultimately even I don’t think the U.S. owes it simply because Israel made a stupid deal with a nation that it had a conflict in.

Anyways, whether they owe it or not, still, that “aid” comes with the fact that the U.S. now has tons of leverage on Israel and well as I have been explaining, I simply don’t feel its worth it anymore, don’t you agree?

Shalom :)
I agree, I don't want the aid, but if we don't get it, I say the Arabs don't get it either.

Just to make this clear, they do have to pay because the agreement was signed between 3 sides and the American president signed it. We decided to stop accepting the aid gradualy over a decade in 2002 (if I'm not wrong), the aid this year is about 2.2 billion dollars.

And again, I don't want the aid, I am just making a point.

[IDFM203]

I agree, I don't want the aid, but if we don't get it, I say the Arabs don't get it either. Yes that is how I feel as well though ultimately that is not for me or you to dictate as the Americans can sell to whomever they like, as we have NO leverage of their dealings as they do with us.

Now if we stop the aid, then yes I guess as a friend and ally they can at least listen to our requests as we can listen to theirs though that is on a friendly nation to nation basis as it should be!!


Just to make this clear, they do have to pay because the agreement was signed between 3 sides and the American president signed it. We decided to stop accepting the aid gradualy over a decade in 2002 (if I'm not wrong), the aid this year is about 2.2 billion dollars.

And again, I don't want the aid, I am just making a point.Well since you are making this point, can you show me where they HAVE to pay as I simply feel that they do it for it serves their interests in many ways and not because they have to….I will be curious to see where the U.S. is BOUND to the 3 plus billion in aid that it gives Israel??

Shalom :)

[Moledet]

Yes that is how I feel as well though ultimately that is not for me or you to dictate as the Americans can sell to whomever they like, as we have NO leverage of their dealings as they do with us.

Now if we stop the aid, then yes I guess as a friend and ally they can at least listen to our requests as we can listen to theirs though that is on a friendly nation to nation basis as it should be!!

Well since you are making this point, can you show me where they HAVE to pay as I simply feel that they do it for it serves their interests in many ways and not because they have to….I will be curious to see where the U.S. is BOUND to the 3 plus billion in aid that it gives Israel??

Shalom :)
I checked it and you are right, it says that the congress will decide to give or not to give aid to Israel:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/US-Israel%20Memorandum%20of%20Agreement

[usm2b]

Yeah, because Greece is a real threat to the US, so it had to force us to cancel a 150 million dollars deal with them. So is Venezuela that somehow has your warplanes but is ofcourse the enemy (and we lost another quarter million dollars).

Understand that something doesn't have to physically threaten us...something that threatens our interests can be just as harmful. Israel is getting a bigass paycheck from us everyear...and its money we could use here, so Israel can A.) help us out, or B.) say keep you damn money we'll do what we want.