Vietnam vs. Iraq? Capability of domestic forces?

[muede]

Knowing that in Iraq the the domestic forces are incapable of fuctioning without US support and assistance, i was looking some pics from Vietnam and wondered that was that the case with Vietnam also? Cause it was reported not too long ago that from the all Iraqi Battalions only one was / is capable in operating on their own.

So im asking that were Vietnamese domestic unit (ARVN) capable of operating on its own or did they too heavilly lean and were they too like the Iraqis dependant on the assisntance of US troops?

[KEEPER0311]

Knowing that in Iraq the the domestic forces are incapable of fuctioning without US support and assistance, i was looking some pics from Vietnam and wondered that was that the case with Vietnam also? Cause it was reported not too long ago that from the all Iraqi Battalions only one was / is capable in operating on their own.

So im asking that were Vietnamese domestic unit (ARVN) capable of operating on its own or did they too heavilly lean and were they too like the Iraqis dependant on the assisntance of US troops?
A majority of the forces need some sort of US assistance. Although there are the units of the Vietnamise Marine Corp would operate completly independently of US support.

[Kekkonen]

So im asking that were Vietnamese domestic unit (ARVN) capable of operating on its own or did they too heavilly lean and were they too like the Iraqis dependant on the assisntance of US troops?

As I´ve understood it ARVN was quite a capable force, with for its day modern equipment handed to them by the Americans. Problem was that while the Americans soldiers were there for a six month tour the ARVN soldiers had to keep on fighting for years and years. So during the last NVA offensive ARVN was hit hard by desertions, low morale etc and didn´t put up much resistance. The officer corps was corrupted and the whole south was run by generals rather than politicians.

Could be the same thing with the Iraqi army if the war continues for years and years, unlike the Americans soldiers they are stuck where they are. Although of course NVA was a more capable and threatening enemy than the Iraqi insurgents.

http://www.gruntonline.com/images/Pictures3/ceasefire_capitulation2b.jpg
A wounded South Vietnamese soldier
is helped by his comrade.

[nognig]

I think average ARVN soldier gets a bad rap. The command structure was the problem, not the soldiers. In another forum a Vietnam Vet talked about working with ARVN soldiers that had been fighting continuously for 10 years. Remember, the North/South Vietnam struggle fighting started when the french left, 1954/1955.

For America, the Vietnam war was 1965-1973. For the Vietnamese, the war was 1946-1975. Any soldier who serves 10 straight years in combat deserves respect.

NN

[Kekkonen]

For America, the Vietnam war was 1965-1973. For the Vietnamese, the war was 1946-1975.

That´s a good point. I think the same thing can to some extenth be said about Iraq, their war didn´t start when they got invaded 2003. The whole Saddam era was filled with full-scale wars, local conflicts and uprisings and just general bloodshed.

Especially the period between the first and second gulf war must have been a terrible time for the Iraqis, with the sanctions that might have killed over a million Iraqis. Not to mention that they occasionally got bombed as well, for example the Baghdad airstrikes 1998 after kicking out UN-observers that were infiltrated with CIA-spies (as US later has admitted).

[toad]

I don't think we get the whole picture or story of the preparedness of Iraqi troops. What we do get is through the filtering of the media.

Here is a Stars and Stripes article featured on Murdoc that shows the Iraqi forces are very active in patrols. 1000 patrols since the election.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=31555&archive=true


"Iraqi forces undertook about 1,000 of the missions on their own, officials said to highlight the training and fielding of local security forces. Another 100 of the raids included both U.S. and Iraqi soldiers, who have been operating in tandem for months."


Iraqi forces have conducted 1,000 post-election patrols without U.S. help
That one battalion must be exhausted... ;)

[Macs.]

I don't think we get the whole picture or story of the preparedness of Iraqi troops. What we do get is through the filtering of the media.

Here is a Stars and Stripes article featured on Murdoc that shows the Iraqi forces are very active in patrols. 1000 patrols since the election.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=31555&archive=true


"Iraqi forces undertook about 1,000 of the missions on their own, officials said to highlight the training and fielding of local security forces. Another 100 of the raids included both U.S. and Iraqi soldiers, who have been operating in tandem for months."


Iraqi forces have conducted 1,000 post-election patrols without U.S. help
That one battalion must be exhausted... ;)

Well, your source isn't quite an unbiased source either, isn't it ?


A top U.S. military commander in Iraq adjusted his forecast for the Iraqi military on Friday, saying it would take from 18 months to two years before the Iraqi military could operate completely on its own.
Maj. Gen. William G. Webster Jr. said that while Iraqi soldiers are increasingly conducting their own military operations, they still depend heavily on outside help for logistics and support, including fuel, ammunition, spare parts and food.

http://www.sltrib.com/nationworld/ci_3141325

How many man strong is that iraqi batallion ?

[XS203598]

[QUOTE=Kekkonen]Americans soldiers were there for a six month tour QUOTE]

The US Army had a 12 month tour (multiples) and the Marines had a 13 month dance near the DMZ. There were six month TDYs for guys.

[hughdotoh]

good link, although some would call it biased.

http://www.generalhieu.com/contents.htm

[muede]

Thanks for the replys.

And to person telling about these "patrols" even Iraqi police does "patrols" but the task "patrolling" is so simle that a militia force with little no or no training can complete that, and also what i was asking were the Vietnamese forces capable of operating on their own when americans were in country, ie on battalion, regiment, brigade, division or corps level ops.

Maybe somebody could point out some successes of these scales, or alternatively failures? Of ARVN that is, Iraq and whats happening there really isnt the topic it was just the fact how it is there led me to think of that how it was in Vietnam..

Regards