Fires of 'civil war' erupt in Paris [Archive]

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Salonen

10-30-2005, 01:47 AM

Fires of 'civil war' erupt in Paris
Police in street battles after two teenagers die in chase

Jason Burke in Paris
Sunday October 30, 2005
The Observer

Hundreds of French youths fought with police and set cars ablaze in a northern Paris suburb early yesterday morning in a second successive night of rioting.

The disorder was triggered last week when two teenagers were electrocuted and killed in a local substation while fleeing from police. French authorities insist they were running away from officers investigating a break-in, but people in Clichy-sous-Bois claim that the dead youths had committed no crime.

Yesterday afternoon a silent march was held to the town hall in the centre of the suburb. Many protesters wore T-shirts bearing the message: 'Dead for Nothing'.

'We respect the republic, said Siako Karne, the brother of one of the dead men. 'The republic has to respect us.'

Firefighters extinguished more than 30 burning cars and dozens of dustbins pushed into makeshift barricades on Friday night and Saturday morning as running battles in the streets of the north-eastern suburb pitted more than 200 riot police against scores of hooded youths. At least one shot was fired at the police, 19 people were detained and 15 officers and one journalist injured, an official spokesman said.

An officer from police trade union Action Police CFTC called for help from the army to support police officers. 'There's a civil war under way in Clichy-sous-Bois at the moment,' Michel Thooris from Action Police CFTC, said. 'My colleagues neither have the equipment nor the practical nor theoretical training for street fighting.'

Clichy-sous-Bois is home to 28,300 people a large number of whom are recent immigrants from North or Central Africa. Most live in rundown, low-rise public housing estates. Unemployment rates are among the highest in France and many locals see the police as 'the enemy'.

Claude Dilain, Socialist mayor of the suburb, called for an 'efficient, rapid and transparent investigation' into the deaths of the two teenagers. A relative of one of the dead youths, who were identified by local media as 15-year-old Banou and 17-year-old Ziad, said that the two were among nine boys were playing football and 'doing nothing wrong'. 'But one of them did not have an identity card, and so they were scared when they saw the police and ran,' she said.

According to the mayor, 'no particular recent tension' preceded the riots.

The violence has focused attention once more on France's Interior Minster, Nicholas Sarkozy. Sarkozy, whose law and order policies have drawn frequent criticism from human rights groups, launched a new offensive against crime this month, ordering specially trained police to tackle 25 tough neighbourhoods in cities across France.

Delphine Batho, the opposition Socialist Party security spokesperson, called for 'serious answers' to the questions raised by the violence.

ogukuo72

10-30-2005, 04:27 AM

Oh I see, when violent criminals start resisting the police violently, the police should back off. That's a smart plan, huh?

Count Lippe

10-30-2005, 07:55 AM

Don't run from the police jackasses! :bash:

Victims of their own stupidity!

futurepilot2004

10-30-2005, 08:50 AM

but people in Clichy-sous-Bois claim that the dead youths had committed no crime.
Why did they run then???
I smell BS, you run from the police it will rarely have a positive out-come.

Esszett

10-30-2005, 08:55 AM

I once saw the French movie "La Haine" (hatred) in which similar things happened (Police shoot young immigrants, riots break out).
I also recall that I heard about huge riots between the police and immigrants in France in the late 90s.
Does this happen very often in France?
I wonder why there haven't been such riots between immigrants and the police here in Germany. If you believe some sources (provided by right-wingers) there would be the potential for such things here in Germany too.

Esszett

10-30-2005, 09:05 AM

Why did they run then???
I smell BS, you run from the police it will rarely have a positive out-come.

The article says
"A relative of one of the dead youths, who were identified by local media as 15-year-old Banou and 17-year-old Ziad, said that the two were among nine boys were playing football and 'doing nothing wrong'. 'But one of them did not have an identity card, and so they were scared when they saw the police and ran,' she said."

You know, kids at that age sometimes do stupid things.

If the police really shot at them just because they ran away, then IMO this is a scandal.
Which doesn't give the people there the right to riot and destroy anything around though.

Count Lippe

10-30-2005, 09:21 AM

They weren't shot...:roll:

And kids at that age most likely won't be arrestst, but taken home to their parents!

Esszett

10-30-2005, 10:00 AM

They weren't shot...:roll:

And kids at that age most likely won't be arrestst, but taken home to their parents!

You are right, sorry, didn't read carefull enough.

Sharp

10-30-2005, 10:39 AM

http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/*******_molt/905260064.jpg

From the French news....

...In the afternoon, a third young person, wounded in the same circumstances, could be questioned on his bed of hospital. He confirmed that the three teenagers believed themselves continued by the police force "whereas at any time they were not it", declared the public prosecutor of Bobigny, François Molins.

The district of the Pointed Oak, one of the two Clichy-under-Wood cities, blazed up Thursday evening after the discovery of the bodies of Ziad and Banou. The rumour was quickly spread that they had been taken drives out some by police officers and had found refuge in the extremely dangerous room of EDF.

This version of the facts was contradicted by the Minister of Interior Department, Nicolas Sarkozy, as of Friday but in the evening, violences included, opposing nearly 400 young people to the police force which was the target of stones, kingpins and a shooting with real ball, large gauge.

Count Lippe

10-30-2005, 11:48 AM

From the French news....

...In the afternoon, a third young person, wounded in the same circumstances, could be questioned on his bed of hospital. He confirmed that the three teenagers believed themselves continued by the police force "whereas at any time they were not it", declared the public prosecutor of Bobigny, François Molins.

The district of the Pointed Oak, one of the two Clichy-under-Wood cities, blazed up Thursday evening after the discovery of the bodies of Ziad and Banou. The rumour was quickly spread that they had been taken drives out some by police officers and had found refuge in the extremely dangerous room of EDF.

Excuse me, but did you translate that yourself, or did you use an online translator? :D
I don't really understand what the third kid reported to the police.

Please post the original link. My French should be good enough to understand what happened.

Atlantic Friend

10-30-2005, 11:54 AM

The article says
"A relative of one of the dead youths, who were identified by local media as 15-year-old Banou and 17-year-old Ziad, said that the two were among nine boys were playing football and 'doing nothing wrong'. 'But one of them did not have an identity card, and so they were scared when they saw the police and ran,' she said."

You know, kids at that age sometimes do stupid things.

If the police really shot at them just because they ran away, then IMO this is a scandal.
Which doesn't give the people there the right to riot and destroy anything around though.

According to French media the two kids were killed accidentally, being electrocuted as the climbed a electricty line pole (IIRC) while fleeing the police.

Esszett

10-30-2005, 12:07 PM

According to French media the two kids were killed accidentally, being electrocuted as the climbed a electricty line pole (IIRC) while fleeing the police.

Right, sorry, was thinking about the movie I mentioned and mixed the two things up.

Atlantic Friend

10-30-2005, 01:41 PM

Right, sorry, was thinking about the movie I mentioned and mixed the two things up.

I watched "La Haine" too. I really found it was glorifying delinquents to rack up a quick easy buck !

Esszett

10-30-2005, 02:39 PM

I watched "La Haine" too. I really found it was glorifying delinquents to rack up a quick easy buck !

Might be.
But do you really think it was glorifying the delinquents? IMO the one who was glorifying the "struggle against the state" (Vince - Vincent Cassel) was portrayed as a pretty stupid and aggresive personality. Instead of doing something constructive to make his situation better, all he thought of was how to fight against the ones who, after all, just wanted to help him.
At least this was how I interpreted it.

Javehn

10-30-2005, 02:43 PM

1234567890

Esszett

10-30-2005, 03:03 PM

10-30-2005, 03:23 PM

These kids from the Paris suburbs are often idiots looking for troubles and victimizing themselves to make something happen in their daily routine. Plus, it looks cooler to run away from the police than to show them your ID cards.

Durandal

10-30-2005, 03:26 PM

To stay on topic: Does anyone think there is a chance to prevent such things in the future?
I know there have been many efforts in all over Europe to integrate immigrants. With little success it seems. So what could be done?

I seem to recall some severe riots a couple years back, including several murders, in response to increasing the age of retirement and decreasing the number of weeks of vacation.

The riots were not ethnic but social/political.

Nor were they the only ones that had nothing to do ethnicity.

So, no, I do not think its completely avoidable...certain portions of France simply like to riot be it PERCEIVED ethnic injustice or economic realities.

SPQR

10-31-2005, 10:39 PM

The solution is immediate DEPORTATION. Borders, language and culture or a country dies, period. You don't like France, don't want to assimilate, then go back to your filthy rat-hole country!

Zarathustra

10-31-2005, 11:56 PM

The solution is immediate DEPORTATION. Borders, language and culture or a country dies, period. You don't like France, don't want to assimilate, then go back to your filthy rat-hole country!

Yes I agree and I think the same about Birmingahm, LA in 1992 etc, but I doubt it could ever happen you know... It's probably too " unpolitically correct " policy.

Durandal

11-01-2005, 12:04 AM

The solution is immediate DEPORTATION. Borders, language and culture or a country dies, period. You don't like France, don't want to assimilate, then go back to your filthy rat-hole country!

Does that include all the union/government morons that strike and close down Paris with their tractors, march, riot, burn cars, etc...?

All kidding aside, gradual changes in all three things that you listed has happened to every modern nation currently in existence. In fact, ironically enough, I probably had great great great grandfathers here in the U.S., Protestants, whose family arrived in the early 1700s, say the same thing about my great great grandfather who got off the boat and were German-Catholics.

Its funny how we forget who we are and were we came from.

Durandal

11-01-2005, 12:06 AM

Count Lippe

11-01-2005, 10:39 AM

They would have been taken to their parents, because they weren't 18 yet.

Atlantic Friend

11-01-2005, 12:28 PM

Might be.
But do you really think it was glorifying the delinquents? IMO the one who was glorifying the "struggle against the state" (Vince - Vincent Cassel) was portrayed as a pretty stupid and aggresive personality. Instead of doing something constructive to make his situation better, all he thought of was how to fight against the ones who, after all, just wanted to help him.
At least this was how I interpreted it.

Yeah, I really thought it was the summum of "jeunisme" ("youthism"), showing that the young rebels are always right, and whatever they do is somehow justifies because the "normal" society does not want them to integrate or to enjoy life. Routine ID checks by the police is shown as racist harassment, gangs are just their way of "fighting back", etc.

"Vince" was stupid and aggressive to you, to me, and I suppose to every sane person. But for the targeted audience, Vince is a hero, his aggressiveness is justified, and his logic is flawless. Like when they go see that guy that tries to talk them out of resorting to violence, and they leave him thinking he's right, but well, honor or tradition or gang rules must be obeyed, so let's whack someone.

Atlantic Friend

11-01-2005, 12:33 PM

I've browsed the "Free Republic" conservative forum and mostly everybody is ecstatic over the riots, echanging hollow arguments such as "oh, that's the price of appeasement", and "oh, I sure hope we won't save them this time", or "oh, let's not use any of our hard-earned US dollars to help the surrendering monkeys". :cantbeli:

So much for this being a Huntington-class "Clash of Civilizations" !

km5

11-01-2005, 12:38 PM

Atlantic Friend

11-01-2005, 01:55 PM

whats the deal with French and erecting barricades? anytime something happens, they go for the barricades. in Les Miserables (revolution) -> barricades, Napoleon -> barricades, Robespierre -> barricades, DeGaulle -> barricades (probably), stupid dead muslim immigrants ->barricades

they have a hardon for putting up barricades.

I guess it's just that barricades are great tools for urban warfare and urban riots, to interdict certain axes of approach to the other side, notably.

What barricades do you link with de Gaulle, BTW ?

caridon

11-02-2005, 05:15 AM

Avary

11-02-2005, 05:33 PM

I guess it's just that barricades are great tools for urban warfare and urban riots, to interdict certain axes of approach to the other side, notably.

What barricades do you link with de Gaulle, BTW ?
May 1968 (http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org/article.php3?id_article=101), the good old times.

Sharp

11-02-2005, 05:34 PM

to download .... (http://videosmilitaires2.free.fr/french_riots.avi) (up your sound level if you want hear something..) and no, it's not a movie.. (would be happy to see french movie like that lol)

Atlantic Friend

11-03-2005, 06:47 AM

May 1968 (http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org/article.php3?id_article=101), the good old times.

Goodness, and to think I had forgotten these ones ! LOL

Durandal

11-03-2005, 09:56 AM

It is rather amusing to se some persons (from the USA) caling this a civil war and claiming it is because of failure to integrate/to many immigrants.

compare this to the watts riots and you se that it is a tempest in a teacupp.

/C

I am not calling it a Civil War nor do I ignore the fact that the U.S. has its own fair share of problems.

Nor do our problems somehow nullify the validity of France's problems, be they ethnic, labor, or political. p-)

ed316

11-03-2005, 12:01 PM

Manuel Valls, an MP and mayor of Evry, a town south of Paris where half the population have foreign roots, says France "cannot lecture Britain or the US" on immigration issues. Liberte', only if you are a white French person IMO.

gaijinsamurai

11-03-2005, 01:06 PM

What would Brentmiester's and BigBaribal's comments be?!?!

BigBaribal

11-03-2005, 05:20 PM

Someone called me? ;)

- As the different elements have been slowly arranged the past thirty years, things are going on now mechanically.
- It's an awakening for a lot of people, especially for the ones trusting the state for their security.
- Mainstream medias are lost, without "emergency" concepts to describe the facts.

It's not even necessary to comment further the situation.

BigBaribal

11-03-2005, 05:25 PM

May I add that this poor situation was foreseeable for years, with just a minor knowledge of history or social studies and that it's very sad, because even the rioters are themselves victims of a system.

2Sheds_Jackson

11-03-2005, 11:26 PM

Zarathustra

11-03-2005, 11:32 PM

Because our govnt suck ass jackson... we got every year many uncultured immigrants while the smart leave France for the US where they are way better payed.

Durandal

11-04-2005, 12:34 AM

From what I understand of the situation, most of the rioters (or their families) are recent immigrants. My question would be - why is France allowing such an influx of people who are (apparently) not qualified for work or for whatever reason unemployable? Immigration is fine, if a society has a place for the people coming in - when it doesn't, well...there's trouble. It's one thing to have an internal population that for whatever reason is chronically on the dole - but why import people to be on the dole right off the bat? Isn't anybody at the Ministry of Watching Over Such Things keeping track of these numbers?

Its not just current immigration, its also the the 2nd and 3rd generations of Northern African immigrants that came over in the 70s and 80s.

The problem is France had a massively friendly immigration policy that was taken advantage of. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Proof, in my mind, that silly unregulated socialized policies are either doom to failure or doom the nation using them.

BigBaribal

11-04-2005, 08:45 AM

The Pravda has a rather tough article here:

http://english.pravda.ru/printed.html?news_id=16405

Btw, Russian tourists have been attacked in Paris....

http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=335860

.... and they asked the local authorities if "there's war in France too?"

Sad. There's nothing happy to be a misfortune prophet when the facts proved you were right.

BigBaribal

11-04-2005, 08:45 AM

Btw, the very same situation is happening now in Denemark near Arhus.

Durandal

11-04-2005, 09:26 AM

I think the big thing here is what absolute pussies the French government comes out appearing in this. Its been going on a for a week and they have not done crap. Its sort of proving how, over the course of two decades, they have created a problem, and are either unwilling or unable to fix it.

Hey, I know, maybe, it'll go away on its own. *snort*

BigBaribal

11-04-2005, 09:56 AM

toki

11-04-2005, 10:09 AM

The irony, or the sad thing - depends on your viewpoint, is that the kids actually destroy the property of their parents or other people who live in the same ****ty place. If they burn 300 cars, as many trashbins and some stores in their neighbourhood, who do you think they belong to?
I think the situation would change drastically if they would switch the location.
It's all about who is threatened.
Of course the police shouldn't make their decision upon which area it is, but it seems they just secure the area and let them crush their own place.
Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Durandal

11-04-2005, 10:20 AM

It's simple: they can't do anything.

If they let the rioters riot, the authority of the state will be even more depreciated.

If they choose an heavy treatment, things can get amok at a supersonic speed.

Bull****.

The problem is that France tries to pass laws that they try to pass off as social reform to preserve "French way of life". Something I disagree with, but hey its not my country.

But through inaction at a local level such as lack of police intervention, allowing neighborhoods to, in essence become lawless, the government has created this problem.

The French government CAN do something about this and should. Inaction simple proves to these people who is in charge in the neck of the woods. Which is REALLY bad in the long run. Busting a couple heads and locking the place down is not bad in the long term. Letting them get away with civil anarchy is.

Bluezoo

11-04-2005, 12:33 PM

It's simple: they can't do anything......

Government powerless in face of spreading riots

PARIS, Nov 4 (AFP) - Gangs of youths again stoned police and set cars ablaze as France's worst rioting in more than a decade raged for its eighth straight night, sparking fears that racial and social divisions were fuelling growing violence.

In a worrying sign, the rampages that have gripped the poorer immigrant-populated outskirts of Paris since October 27 spread, for the first time, to other parts of the country, to Dijon, Marseille and Normandy, and inside the capital itself.

They have also taken on an increasingly dangerous tone, with buckshot fired at riot squad vans -- and prosecutors revealing that a handicapped woman was deliberately set on fire the night before.

According to prosecutors Friday, the 56-year-old woman was unable to get off a bus targeted by a Molotov cocktail late Wednesday in the northern Paris suburb of Sevran. She was allegedly doused with petrol by one youth, then others threw a flaming rag on her. Rescued by the driver, she was taken to hospital with severe burns to 20 percent of her body.

A fireman was also being treated for burns to his face received from a Molotov cocktail thrown earlier in the week.

Overnight Thursday, more than 500 vehicles and several businesses were set on fire, and 78 people arrested in the Paris area, according to police.

Most of the arson happened in the low-income neighbourhoods that lie well outside the city, far from its famous monuments and tourist sights, although seven cars were also burnt in poorer northern and eastern districts in central Paris.

The violence has badly rattled the government of president Jacques Chirac, which is wavering between the 'zero tolerance' policies of the hardline interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy and calls for a more conciliatory approach to take account of the rioters' grievances.

More than 1,300 police were deployed in a vain attempt to restore order around the city, following a vow from prime minister Dominique de Villepin that "I will not allow organised gangs to make the law in the suburbs."

Marine Le Pen, daughter of extreme-right politician Jean-Marie Le Pen and deputy leader of his National Front party, called for a state of emergency to be declared in the worst-hit areas.

The rioting -- sparked last week by the accidental deaths by electrocution of two youths who hid in an electrical sub-station in the northeast neighbourhood of Clichy-sous-Bois to escape a police identity check -- is the worst France has seen since the first troubles broke out in deprived high-immigration neighbourhoods in the late 1980s.

Those responsible are groups of young Muslim men, the sons of families from France's former Arab and African colonial territories, who have said in interviews that they are protesting economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing.

Arsonists set fire to five businesses in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north and east of Paris city centre, completely destroying a large warehouse containing carpets and flooring material at the Garonord industrial zone near Charles de Gaulle airport.

At Trappes to the southwest of Paris a spectacular fire gutted a bus depot, with 27 vehicles inside destroyed. Witnesses told Europe 1 radio that flames shot 50 meters into the air with repeated explosions.

Five officers were lightly hurt by flying objects as rioters once again stoned police and fire services in several neighbourhoods, and at Neuilly-sur-Marne to the east of Paris buckshot was fired at vans belonging to the CRS riot squad.

Police said that though the number of car-burnings was higher than the previous night, clashes with rioters were fewer.

Speaking on French television late Thursday, Sarkozy said the violence was being orchestrated by unknown organisers. "What we have been witnessing ... has nothing spontaneous about it. It was perfectly organised. We are trying to find out by who and how," he said.

The minister -- who has ambitions to become president after elections in 2007 -- also rejected accusations that his tough rhetoric had fuelled the rioters' anger. He has described delinquent suburban youth as "racaille" or rabble, and said crime-ridden areas need to be "cleaned with a power-hose."

Paris mayor Bertrand Delanoë of the opposition Socialist Party warned on Europe 1 against hasty conclusions being made "between one religion, Islam, and a few extremists" and the range of criminal networks in the down-trodden suburbs.

Small-scale suburban violence is a regular but unreported fact of life in many poor areas on the outskirts of major French cities. According to the police intelligence service, a total of 28,000 cars were burned across the country this year -- even before the latest outbreak.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=25064&name=Government+powerless+in+face+of+spreading+riots

Bluezoo

11-04-2005, 12:46 PM

Week of violence prompts French soul-searching

PARIS, Nov 4 (AFP) - What is behind the Paris riots? Organised gangs of criminals -- even Islamic radicals -- out to undermine the state, or a failure by successive governments to give millions of immigrants a chance in life?

Rampages that have gripped the poorer immigrant-populated outskirts of Paris since October 27, spreading for the first time Thursday night to other parts of the country, have left many in the country struggling for an explanation.

The rioters are young, overwhelmingly Muslim men, second-generation immigrants from France's former Arab and African colonies, who claim they are protesting economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing.

This argument has been widely echoed in the press, by Muslim and community representatives and by the left-wing opposition, which accuses the centre-right government of slashing budgets for social work in these communities.

Hardline new law-and-order policies implemented by interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy have also been widely accused of fuelling anger in the high-rise, mainly immigrant estates where the trouble has spread.

Sociologist Michel Wierviorka, speaking in Le Parisien newspaper, charged that Sarkozy had "stigmatised entire communities" by arguing that crime-ridden areas should be "cleaned with a power-hose".

But the interior minister -- while recognising more must be done to haul the suburbs out of poverty and exclusion -- insisted on Thursday the violence was being orchestrated by unknown ringleaders.

Police union leader Bruno Beschizza described the riots as "urban terrorism", led by small knots of criminals as well as Islamic radicals.

"This is a form of urban terrorism led by a minority of kingpins, who have a financial interest, such as drug trafficking, or an ideological one, such as Islamic radicals who have been seen by our colleagues."

These ringleaders were a "tiny minority", the head of the Synergie union said on Friday, adding his view was backed by a number of social workers and lawmakers in the worst-hit Seine-Saint-Denis region northeast of Paris.

The role -- if any -- of Islam in the recent upsurge in violence, which has affected mainly Muslim neighbourhoods, is a highly sensitive issue in France.

Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoë, a Socialist, has warned against lumping together "a religion, Islam", with "a handful of extremists" and with "criminal networks".

In many cases Muslim community leaders have been acting as mediators between youths and the authorities, going door-to-door to talk to the families of young rioters, or stepping in at night to stop the clashes.

Most observers searching for the root causes of the riots accuse successive governments of turning a blind eye as immigrant ghettos, synonymous with unemployment and social deprivation, swelled outside France's big cities.

Today, some 750 areas are classed as 'Sensitive Urban Zones' (ZUS), where unemployment hovers at 20 percent -- twice the national average -- and average incomes are 60 percent of the national average, government statistics show.

Among young men between 15 and 25, unemployment reaches 36 percent -- and even higher if only young Arab men are counted.

Youth violence -- with car-burnings a regular feature -- has been steadily building in these dilapidated estates, with major outbreaks of rioting around once a year and countless minor incidents which go unreported.

Sociologist Wieviorka said the riots stemmed from years of "broken promises" by the French state, and called into question the country's entire model for integrating newcomers into French society.

The French model, secular and republican, insists that all citizens are equal before the state, but has been accused of leaving cultural minorities without a voice, notably France's estimated five million Muslims.

"(These riots) demonstrate the failure of the so-called Republican model for social integration. We need to find something new, some combination of social solidarity and economic realism," Wieviorka said.

Le Figaro newspaper, in an editorial, said the run-down estates had "rotted" away to become "prisons" for the estimated five-million people who live there.
For the newspaper, the main culprit was French immigration policy since the 1970s, which had allowed family reunification but failed to provide sufficient mechanisms to integrate newcomers into society.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=25069&name=Week+of+violence+prompts+French+soul%2Dsearching

BigBaribal

11-04-2005, 02:32 PM

Bull****.

The problem is that France tries to pass laws that they try to pass off as social reform to preserve "French way of life". Something I disagree with, but hey its not my country.

But through inaction at a local level such as lack of police intervention, allowing neighborhoods to, in essence become lawless, the government has created this problem.

The French government CAN do something about this and should. Inaction simple proves to these people who is in charge in the neck of the woods. Which is REALLY bad in the long run. Busting a couple heads and locking the place down is not bad in the long term. Letting them get away with civil anarchy is.

The situation is much more complicated than for instance the riots in Toledo.

For instance, when there's a riot in the USA, there is often a "black-white" racial problem, what's never good, but in the end, all the guys there, rioters and state forces, recognize themselves more or less in the American identity.

What's happening now in Europe is completely different, because the rioters don't recognize themselves as French ones, even if most of them are French citizen. Also, the civilisational problem with islam is another big parameter.

Btw, the silent crowd of the natives mays not stay silent for centuries.

So, no, it's not "b*ll****", as you elegantly said it, the situation is a "lose-lose" one!

Asheren

11-04-2005, 02:38 PM

I don't want to be bad prophet but eurabia anyone? If government can't stop this next time they will wan't special treatment for muslims or some other s#$t. If they are french send them to jail and throw away the key. If they aren't send them back home. They can make riots there.

BigBaribal

11-04-2005, 03:18 PM

I think the trend is slowly changing even among the Eurocratic self-designed elites: I read for instance recently an article from Mrs. Benita-Wagner, a head at the Bruxelles commission, saying that the "non-europeans" must have a future, a future not in Europe, but at home with the help of Europe.

Why this trend change?

Simply because reality hurts.

ed316

11-04-2005, 03:27 PM

zzztip

11-04-2005, 04:53 PM

Well, as much as I dispise the European leadership I hope it won't end up in a civil war like some people in the forum would like to happen. Beside if it did then the US would have to go over there to save them.......again.

I hope it WILL end up in a civil war and that YOU are going to save us, and i also hope that YOU are going to die while saving us. We would be saved and there would be one less retard on earth rofl

ed316

11-04-2005, 05:15 PM

I hope it WILL end up in a civil war and that YOU are going to save us, and i also hope that YOU are going to die while saving us. We would be saved and there would be one less retard on earth rofl

That's right France the keystone of Europe.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9725/aykcd52dm.jpg

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein?

Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret.

He is French, people."
--Conan O'Brien

Sharp

11-04-2005, 05:37 PM

a pathetic forum... bull****s not come from the posts, but from who post them.

Weasel

11-04-2005, 05:42 PM

achilles

11-04-2005, 05:54 PM

roland

11-04-2005, 05:57 PM

That's right France the keystone of Europe.
<picture>

Capture and burning of Washington by the British
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/cph/3c10000/3c17000/3c17100/3c17176v.jpg

roland

11-04-2005, 05:58 PM

Laworkerbee

11-04-2005, 06:16 PM

You got to save Iraq first, man...one thing at a time ;)

Whoa ouch!

Count Lippe

11-04-2005, 06:17 PM

Stormy

11-04-2005, 06:26 PM

LoL @ Hitler's B-boy stance.

ed316

11-04-2005, 06:37 PM

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/315/francelogo143ve.jpg

ed316

11-04-2005, 06:40 PM

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1225/french20un20surrendering2022mx.gif

ed316

11-04-2005, 06:47 PM

French Hero, Petain

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/5381/817067ek.jpg

ed316

11-04-2005, 06:59 PM

Gotta go, beer to drink and tail to chase. Bonne nuit mon ami, to all the French people on this forum. Burn baby burn.

http://img491.imageshack.us/img491/2096/petain23mn.jpg