IDF to buy Stryker APC?

[California Joe]

The Jerusalem Post thinks so.......Hundreds of them....Just wondering......

[maw]

that would be a big mistake (imho).

[hank]

It really was just a matter of time.

hank

[George W. Bush]

that would be good for our economy :lol:

[Mr. Nielsen]

that would be good for our economy :lol:

Are you american?
If so, you are most likely going to pay the bill.

[fred_engles]

Mr. Nielsen is actually probably right. The IDF is hurting for cash right now - after the large thatcherite cuts in government spending in the new budget being pushed by (or maybe already passed?) finance minister (also former prime minister, and potential right-wing rival to Sharon) Benjamin Netanyahu.

I very much doubt the IDF land corps will be buying hundreds of any vehicle right now at full price, especially not while the IDF is paying for such expensive projects as the security fence, the merkava 4, the Tavor rifle, additional Arrow air defense missiles, and the F-16I. If they're buying Strykers, they'll be getting them at a steep discount, or putting off the purchase for now. Especially since the J-Post article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1075730354468&p=1006688055060) mentions resistance to the plan by the IDF armoured corps, and the fact that there is no critical need for a new APC right now.

[Operation Ivy]

Stryker is sexy :D

[Marxist203]

that would be good for our economy :lol:

Are you american?
If so, you are most likely going to pay the bill.

Well, if he's Canadian then he can make that comment...seeing as they are produced up here. That and well, the US would probably be paying the bill haha.

[Jack Mehoff]

Send hot Israel girls to America for exchange

[Durandal]

Well, if he's Canadian then he can make that comment...seeing as they are produced up here.

Actually, they are produced in BOTH countries.

And yes, America will probably foot the bill or be paid by dollars given to Israel. Which I guess is the same thign. Either way, economically, it is a good thing.

As far as being a good move? Time will tell. It is not like the M113 is the end all be all of APCs. Nor do the Israelis need to worry about whether they can load them on to C130s... :lol:

[maw]

Nor do the Israelis need to worry about whether they can load them on to C130s... :lol:

that's kind of i was thinking but couldn't be bothered to type. i don't think they need the high mobility.
they'd do better with the bionix (imho).
http://www.one35th.com/bionix/bi_intro2.htm
tracked, and modular armor.

aren't the terrex and patria a generation ahead?

[Durandal]

Not to get off on a tangent, but the Bionix is pretty damn small...

I am not too sure why Israel want the Stryker, unless it meets their needs pretty well. You can argue round and round about tracked vs. wheel, but...

*shrug*

I can understand why the US wanted the Stryker. It is an Interim Vehicle. It fills a role that will eventually be filled by a modular type vehicle designed from the ground up specific for the role in a Brigade sized RD unit capable of Security, MOUT, and a variety of other tasks.

In my opinion, the Stryker fits that role fairly well, regardless of the nay sayers. Then again, that is opinion and everyone has one. They are deployed though and time will tell.

[wholagun]

aren't the terrex and patria a generation ahead?

I was asking myself the same question. It seems that Poland is only one that bought Patria AMV.

Maybe its something to do with buying European products, Europe being all anti semetic and all, but still you want a quality product who cares where it comes from. Or it could be that US wants the money put back into its economy after all it is funding the purchase, only makes sense to keep people employed in the US, which is paying for it, rather then see US taxpayers employ the Finns.

Ivy, Patria is a HELL of alot SEXIER.
http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/Tchecoslovaquie/IDET_2003_Picture/Pictures/Patria_AMV_Idet_2003_Czech_Republic_01.jpg

[Yard Ape]

Consider that they prepare against a 360 degree threat. Using highways, LAV IIIs at one end of the country can move to the other end much faster that M113s (or any tracked vehicle).

This becomes an econoly of force issue. It allows for larger (more mobile reserves) to be continously manitained for fast responce to threat areas over a larger area, and it reduces the percentage of the force which must be dispersed to act as "first responders."

Remenber Sun Tzu: To be prepaired everywhere is to be weak everywhere.

[wreck]

Finland is at the moment slowly getting rid of the old bmps etc and replacing them with state of the art apcs, namely cv90 ja amv.

http://www.jed.simonides.org/fulltrack/charlie/cv90_series/z-finland/fn-cv90.html

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/patria/

IMo both are really good choices woot

[mustamato]

Yeah pretty much more sexy

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/patria/images/patria5.jpg

Must be quite bizarre to be in the position of the Israelis, with some other
countries taxpayers paying the bill, whether they want it or not. I guess the
only demand the americans politicians have is that they must choose
american? So all euroweenie armour is out of question. But I guess it would
be it anyway, "those antisemitic europeans" :)

[Yard Ape]

The LAV III/Stryker/Piranha III can be "sexy"

This shows a few types of LAV III APC:
http://army.ca/album/Vehicles/Canadian/Types.JPG

This is several different LAV III (Note: top right & HVM platform at bottom are Piranha III & not LAV III)
http://army.ca/album/Vehicles/Canadian/LAVIIITypes.jpg

[Sergei]

The LAV III/Stryker/Piranha III can be "sexy"

This shows a few types of LAV III APC:
http://army.ca/album/Vehicles/Canadian/Types.JPG

This is several different LAV III (Note: top right & HVM platform at bottom are Piranha III & not LAV III)
http://army.ca/album/Vehicles/Canadian/LAVIIITypes.jpg

Why do I have a feeling that Stryker will be the next "coffin for seven brothers"?
Nah, better run away from those thoughts.

I have a question to those familiar with that APC, does the cannon variant can actually fire sideways without flipping over? Or do you have to maintain your gun along the riding path of APC?

[Mr. Nielsen]

I guess the only demand the americans politicians have is that they must choose american? So all euroweenie armour is out of question. But I guess it would be it anyway, "those antisemitic europeans" :)

They have no problem accepting german submarines as a gift. So if you offered some Patria's for free, I can't see why they should refuse the offer.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Why do I have a feeling that Stryker will be the next "coffin for seven brothers"?


Is it a worse coffin than an uparmoured hummer? Or for that matter the m-113. Everyone are not going to drive a Bradley anyway, so if the alternative is hummer, I guess the Stryker won't be so bad. Besides I think that the armor level etc. needs to be seen as only a part of the equation, along with tactics and intelligence etc.

[hank]

Has anyone considered the fact that Joe might be monkeying around a little? I looked around this morning and couldn't find anything about this. I ain't calling Joe a liar cause then he'd have to kill me but anybody with Josey Wales as an avatar deserves healthy skecticism at all times.

hank

[Mr. Nielsen]

Has anyone considered the fact that Joe might be monkeying around a little? I looked around this morning and couldn't find anything about this. I ain't calling Joe a liar cause then he'd have to kill me but anybody with Josey Wales as an avatar deserves healthy skecticism at all times.

The story appears in the 3. February edition of Jerusalem Post.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/index.html?ts=1075987195

You need to sign in etc to get the whole story.

http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/potw/current/05.html

[Javehn]

Mustamato , i think that your "Euro Antisemits" wouldn't want to sell by themselfes that APC . And second , European APC aren't good in Israel , their engine will chock up from the dust , and the oil conductors probably aren't addapted to Israeli heat .

One of reasons why Israel looking (meanwhile only looking) to bye the wheel APC , is because track APC's cause damage to pave roads in some way or another . Also the tracked vehicles getting very slick on betton and pave road . So to prevent collathoral damage (Yes , Nielsen , What a shock !! Those bloud thirsty Israelians actually want to prevent it !! Something is wrong here !!) , IDF tryed to add rubber to bottom of the tracks , rubber buggies . But there isn't enough rubber pads for every track , so meanwhile IDF is looking for more pernament solution , like Wheeled LAV Striker . It's also the time to replace M113 , so for now IDF cheking for different sources , for know . And it's only checking for now .

[Mr. Nielsen]

Mustamato , i think that your "Euro Antisemits" wouldn't want to sell by themselfes that APC .

There might be a point.


And second , European APC aren't good in Israel , their engine will chock up from the dust , and the oil conductors probably aren't addapted to Israeli heat .

I'm sure that could be fixed. What are the record of european vehicles in the desert? Anyone?


So to prevent collathoral damage (Yes , Nielsen , What a shock !! Those bloud thirsty Israelians actually want to prevent it !! Something is wrong here !!)

That might be a little more convincing if we didn't watch Israeli bulldozers at work nearly everyday.

[UoUo]

Mustamato , i think that your "Euro Antisemits" wouldn't want to sell by themselfes that APC .

There might be a point.


And second , European APC aren't good in Israel , their engine will chock up from the dust , and the oil conductors probably aren't addapted to Israeli heat .

I'm sure that could be fixed. What are the record of european vehicles in the desert? Anyone?


So to prevent collathoral damage (Yes , Nielsen , What a shock !! Those bloud thirsty Israelians actually want to prevent it !! Something is wrong here !!)

That might be a little more convincing if we didn't watch Israeli bulldozers at work nearly everyday.

Excatly the all point...that why europe hate us for nothing...that all that you see..."Israeli bulldozers at work"

Why are they there? who's house they demolished? no......you don't care.

[California Joe]

Has anyone considered the fact that Joe might be monkeying around a little? I looked around this morning and couldn't find anything about this. I ain't calling Joe a liar cause then he'd have to kill me but anybody with Josey Wales as an avatar deserves healthy skecticism at all times.

hank

My avatar rawks. *spits chaw at hank*

Yep, Jerusalem Post. Feb 3rd. Hey I was just wondering, I know the Israelis around here are shy about voicing opinions and all.... ;)

[Loopster]

Excatly the all point...that why europe hate us for nothing...that all that you see..."Israeli bulldozers at work"

Why are they there? who's house they demolished? no......you don't care.

Ehhhh, what?, I'm from Europe, exactly from Spain and I can say that in european countrys that suffers the attack of terrorists we know what israeli people are living and the reasons of this antiterrorist war; but is too diferent entry in a city, arrest or kill (or simply hunt) a group of terrorist or fly over people in a Apache and kill ten inocents to hunt only one man, in my country a previous government use mercenaries and special forces to assasin terrorist and interrogate theis simpatizants, and the responsables (or many of them) are in jail for criminals.

I admire so much the IDF, an army which never loss a war, but you knows that you can do it better and prevent the kill of innocents. It's easy, catch that ****in weasel called Arafat and all the terrorist leaders, bring the palestinian to a real democracy and the advantages to live in peace, and in a years this problem should be history.

The terrorism is a ****ing hard problem, but with legal and police battle it can dissapear.

[Javehn]

Hehe , guy , perhaps you have a point somewhere there , but it's just impossible . First of all , we don't have enough cops in Israel , and more and more to territories . Second , if we do send policeman there , i think after one month , Israeli police will seaze to exist , if you know what i mean. Rabit shootout rings a bell ? And last , that's Palestinian police work , not Israeli , if they don't do the work , is something else ...

And now , to Nilsen . Ok dokey . Buldozers and homes , yes ? That's indeed controversial act , but it was permitted by Israeli high court , the same court that if you look at it's roolings , you will see it's exact orienation , and non-biased judging . How it work ?? Next story :

1)Jelal Hakil Jerar from Jenin , 17.5 was arrested by IDF . He was aproached by Islamic Jihad ,asked him to become suicide killer . He almost agreed , but at the end Jelal didn't do it because he was affraid that his house would be ruined .
2)Umaya Mahmad Damge , 24 years old women from Jenin , was approached again , by Islamic Jihad . Again , she refused - at that was the reason .

That was the reason Israeli high court permitted this act . It was actually outlawed by the same court , but after terror attack (i am not shure which one ) , it was permitted back again , and prooved to be very effective tool .

[California Joe]

Don't be shy. Really.

[Durandal]

Don't be shy. Really.

rofl

[Javehn]

I don't get the humor ... I am not shy :lol:

[Operation Ivy]

How can u say the Stryker isnt sexy :|

Me and my stryker/abrams :hug:

[Durandal]

How can u say the Stryker isnt sexy :|

Ivy, it is the shiznit...some of us, however, do not masturbate, to IFVs. :)

[soma]

They are both the same things. Minus a head lamp job!

[Operation Ivy]

How can u say the Stryker isnt sexy :|

Ivy, it is the shiznit...some of us, however, do not masturbate, to IFVs. :)

rofl i just cant help it ;)

[Sayeret]

The LAV-25 is a better APC than the Stryker is because of its firepower. Besides the Stryker 105mm version most the Strykers carry a .50 caliber or a 40mm grenade launcher on a remotely-controlled turret, this is different from the LAV-25 which has a 7.62mm machine gun and a 25mm cannon.
Israel should buy LAV-25s if their going to buy any APCs not Strykers.

[Yard Ape]

The LAV-25 is a better APC than the Stryker is because of its firepower. ...
Israel should buy LAV-25s if their going to buy any APCs not Strykers.How can you say that? LAV 25 is only LAV II. Stryker is LAV III. If firepower is the chief concern then buy a model with the Delco 25 mm or 30 mm turret (Like Canada & New Zealand). With LAV III you get more power & speed, better armour, improved cross country mobility, and a greatly reduced thermal signature. I have seen both generations perform side-by-side in the field & the LAV III (Stryker) is by far the better performer.

[IDFM203]

Ok my take on all this is that the U.S. military was looking to upgrade the Stryker or to fix a few of its problems, so what better way to do that then to have it in the hands of the IDF where after no time, you’ll see it have some quality improvements that can be used on all of the Strykers that the Americans use as well. ;) ;) :D




Ok everyone knows its about time that the IDF replace those aging M113’s and while the Achzarit’s (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/achzarit/Achzarit.html) are good indeed, the IDF can use something better.

The Stryker sounds like a good improvement from what I can tell so far

With regards to cost…someone here said that the IDF will get it at a huge discount and I am not so sure about that. I mean I haven’t seen anywhere where that’s the case. To me it seems like it will simply come out of the regular aid that israel gets every year.

The reason why there is a lot of opposition in Israel to this from what I can tell, is that the same factory that makes the Markava 4 has come out with a prototype that rivals the Stryker and are pushing for an Israeli built one.

The styrker is much more cost beneficial to Israel due to the fact that the aid that the U.S. gives to Israel, over 60 to 70 percent of it must be spent back in the U.S. and cant be spent on Israeli hard where.

So with Israel’s economy as it is now, being that its in some hard times, the thinking goes that its simply cost beneficial to go with the regular aid from the U.S. and spend some of it on the Stryker then spend more out of pocket on an Israeli version when already Israel spends 6 to 9 billion on top of what it gets from the U.S. on Israeli hard where as it is (on projects such as the Markava, the arrow, the tavor and all sorts of other Israeli products or improvements…. for more click on this link on just some of what Israel makes or improves on. (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/)

Anyways no decision has been made yet so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

Shalom :D

[oldsoak]

I've always got a problem with a wheeled vehicle because of its wheels - flat tires can happen at damned inconvenient times in a fire fight. Having said that, apparently those rather clever South Africans have come up with a solid polyeurathane tyre that can take quite a few bullets and keep on rolling, so maybe thats a non arguement. I'm not too convinced about things like the amount of armour you can stick on a wheeled vehicle and keep its ground pressure low enough to keep it agile. Also there is the height of the vehicle and how the wheel wells constrain size of the crew compartment etc. These are all no doubt solvable to lesser or greater extent, but still cant help feeling I'd be happier in a Warrior or a Bradley.
Just my HO.
rgds

[Falco]

I've always got a problem with a wheeled vehicle because of its wheels - flat tires can happen at damned inconvenient times in a fire fight. Having said that, apparently those rather clever South Africans have come up with a solid polyeurathane tyre that can take quite a few bullets and keep on rolling, so maybe thats a non arguement. I'm not too convinced about things like the amount of armour you can stick on a wheeled vehicle and keep its ground pressure low enough to keep it agile. Also there is the height of the vehicle and how the wheel wells constrain size of the crew compartment etc. These are all no doubt solvable to lesser or greater extent, but still cant help feeling I'd be happier in a Warrior or a Bradley.
Just my HO.
rgds

What about the tracks of an armored vehicule? They're vulnerable too.

[oldsoak]

Indeed they are, but not quite to the same extent. I would have more chance of disabling the wheels of an armoured car with small arms fire than I would of a tracked vehicle.

[mustamato]

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/libanon/Pasi002.jpg

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/libanon/Pasi001.jpg

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/libanon/Pasi003.jpg

A finnish Pasi APC that made friend with a mine in Lebanon, 1988. The
"boat-shape" of the hull deflected the blast away so there were no injuries,
but one of the axles fell of, but the vehicle could continue driving.

That´s the true trength of a wheeled vs. a tracked vehicle. To
be able to keep driving would of course be a quite good thing
in the case of a ambush or so forth. Of course not very long, but
a bit atleast.

And 8 or 10 wheels are of course better than 6.

[Yard Ape]

Loose a wheel & the LAV III/Stryker can still drive. Throw a track and your vehicle is static until it is killed.

[stuntman]

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/libanon/Pasi002.jpg

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/libanon/Pasi001.jpg

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/libanon/Pasi003.jpg

A finnish Pasi APC that made friend with a mine in Lebanon, 1988. The
"boat-shape" of the hull deflected the blast away so there were no injuries,
but one of the axles fell of, but the vehicle could continue driving.

That´s the true trength of a wheeled vs. a tracked vehicle. To
be able to keep driving would of course be a quite good thing
in the case of a ambush or so forth. Of course not very long, but
a bit atleast.


And 8 or 10 wheels are of course better than 6.
Case is freaking closed!

[Sayeret]

mustamato wrote:






A finnish Pasi APC that made friend with a mine in Lebanon, 1988. The
"boat-shape" of the hull deflected the blast away so there were no injuries,
but one of the axles fell of, but the vehicle could continue driving.

That´s the true trength of a wheeled vs. a tracked vehicle. To
be able to keep driving would of course be a quite good thing
in the case of a ambush or so forth. Of course not very long, but
a bit atleast.


And 8 or 10 wheels are of course better than 6.


This was an example of one lucky APC things like this doesn't usually happen. If wheeled vehicles are stronger than tracked veichles why are tanks tracked. If that APC you showed was hit by an RPG-7 do you expect it to survive? If a RPG-7 hit a M2 Bradley, the APC would easily survive. There is no question about what vehicles are safer a wheeled or tracked. The military knows the Stryker isn't as well protected as APCs even a BMP-1. There is no question if the Stryker was stronger than M2s or even BMP-1s there would be no need to put the "slant armor" on it to protect it from RPGs. Also read this essay or atleast read the first 15 pages. You should realize that the wheeled APC on the front isn't much different from the one you showed except its destroyed.

http://www.cochraneinstitute.com/Reports/strykerreality22.pdf

[mustamato]

This was an example of one lucky APC things like this doesn't usually happen. If wheeled vehicles are stronger than tracked veichles why are tanks tracked. If that APC you showed was hit by an RPG-7 do you expect it to survive? If a RPG-7 hit a M2 Bradley, the APC would easily survive. There is no question about what vehicles are safer a wheeled or tracked. The military knows the Stryker isn't as well protected as APCs even a BMP-1. There is no question if the Stryker was stronger than M2s or even BMP-1s there would be no need to put the "slant armor" on it to protect it from RPGs. Also read this essay or atleast read the first 15 pages. You should realize that the wheeled APC on the front isn't much different from the one you showed except its destroyed.

http://www.cochraneinstitute.com/Reports/strykerreality22.pdf

The finnish XA-series from SISU (now Patria) is not IFV´s like the Bradleys,
and should not be compared to them either. They are simply used as armoured
trucks, SAM-carriers and what not, and definitively not as any Bradleys charging
the enemy. The reason to why tracked vehicles are used is of course that they can
get to places where wheeled vehicles can not, also in peace-keeping where
they are usually used they are more economic, they don´t destroy infrastructure,
and their capability to withstand mines is better than tracked vehicles.

I think it´s a bit irrelevant to talk about the protection level vs. RPG-7v´s, I was
talking about the mine protection. But just for the record, to my knowledge
no one has been killed in a XA-series by enemy fire to this date, and they have been
targeted with all kinds of things, smallarms fire of course, mines, ATGM´s,
RCL´s, automatic cannons, mortars, artillery etc etc. Not direct hits of course in
most cases though, but still...

The newer vehicles in the XA-series, such as the PaTgb 203A bought by Sweden (pic
below) (and the XA-200+ series in general) has side-armour to withstand
12.7 mm AP. And there is add-ons to further improve the armour protection.
Don´t tell me that the BMP-1 has better side-protetction than that. And once again,
these are not IFV´s as the BMP-1 is.

http://www.plutonen.com/EN01/bilder/utb/storlek.jpg
PaTgb 203A (Patria XA-203) in size comparison with old SAAB 9000.

And besides the XA-series is a first-generation finnish APC, the second-generation
Patria AMV is of course a another story, with more wheels, better armour etc etc.
The XA-series is probably inferior to the Piranha/LAV/Stryker, while the AMV is superior to them.

Found two more similar pics:

http://www.dinplats.com/ba01/patrull/minol1.jpg
A swedish APC that hit a mine in Bosnia, three persons were
injured, one seriously

http://www.dinplats.com/ba01/patrull/minol2.jpg
The side were the mine detonated. The blast was so powerfull
that the hull of the vehicle cracked in a welding seam!

____________________________________________

And I have many times wondered how the latest russian BTR´s compare to these
western wheeled armoured vehicle. I don´t know, but they may just kick the crap
out of them, they have impressive specifications atlest.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/btr90-2.jpg
BTR-90, some good **** probably

[Yard Ape]

If a RPG-7 hit a M2 Bradley, the APC would easily survive. Bradleys have been killed (along with crew inside) by RPG7. Even the might M1 has fallen to the RPG 7. I would even suggest that the Stryker is better protected (from HEAT) with its grill armour.

It is not uncommon for a 6x6 or 8x8 vehicle to hit an AntiTank mine, loose a wheel, and keep moving. Tracked vehicles would have thier track broken in the same mine strike and then be stuck in one spot praying that nobody is out there to take a shot at them. There are even cases of AntiPersonel mines throwing end conectors off track & resulting in mobility kills.

Only wheeled vehicles are known for travelling 120 km/hr or more. This is thier advantage over heavy tracked vehicles.

I’m not so naïve as to believe that wheels can replace tracks, but it is foolish to think that there is not a place for both on the battle field.

[Yard Ape]

You should realize that the wheeled APC on the front isn't much different from the one you showed except its destroyed.

http://www.cochraneinstitute.com/Reports/strykerreality22.pdf
You should not be so quick to buy into politicaly based propaganda. This was written with the intent of derailing the Stryker program and there are many faults in its arguments (including untrue generalisations, omission of facts, and out of date information).

It likes to compare to the M113. There is an emphasis on the M113 being smaller, but no mention of the fact that an M113 cannot carry as many dismounts & equipment as the Stryker. The document does not let you forget that a Stryker can be defeated by an RPG, but there is no mention that the beloved M113 is even more vulnerable to RPG. The document does not touch on Canadian experience showing improved occupant safety during mine strikes (even on earlier generation LAV IIs). The document attacks the Stryker ICV's firepower because it does not have a 25 mm cannon while bradley turrets can be mounted on M113s. But, American M113s do not have Bradley turrets and LAV 25 turrets can be mounted on the Stryker (see Canadian & New Zealand vehicles).

Any argument, which does not honestly address the strengths of the other, side is weak. This document is one such argument.