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Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-01-2005, 06:04 AM
Libertarian socialism is any one of a group of political philosophies dedicated to opposing coercive forms of authority and social hierarchy, in particular the institutions of capitalism and the state. Some of the best known libertarian socialist ideologies are anarchism (particularly anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism), council communism, autonomist Marxism, and social ecology. However, the terms Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Communism should not be considered synonyms for libertarian socialism. Anarcho-Communism is a particular branch of libertarian socialism.

Libertarian socialists believe in the abolition of both private control over the means of production and the state, considering both of these to be unnecessary and harmful institutions.

Overview

The basic philosophy of libertarian socialism is summed up in the name: management of the common good (socialism) in a manner that attempts to maximize the liberty of individuals and minimizes concentration of power or authority (libertarianism). It attempts to achieve this through the decentralization of political and economic power, usually involving the collectivization of most large-scale property and enterprise. Libertarian socialism denies the legitimacy of most forms of economically significant private property, since when private property becomes capital, it leads to the exploitation of others with less economic means and thus infringes on the exploited class's individual freedoms.

Libertarian socialists differentiate between the idea of authority based on power, and authority based on knowledge or skills. The term "power", in this instance, refers to the social or physical dominance of one individual over another. They oppose all unjustified authority, be it political, economic, or social.

Libertarian socialists believe that all social bonds should be developed by individuals who have an equal amount of bargaining power, that an accumulation of economic power in the hands of a few and the centralization of political power both reduce the bargaining power—and thus the liberty of the other individuals in society. To put it another way, capitalist (and right-libertarian) principles lead to the concentration of economic power in the hands of those who end up owning the most capital. Libertarian socialism aims to distribute power, and thus freedom, more equally amongst members of society. A key difference between libertarian socialism and right-wing libertarianism is that advocates of the former generally believe that one's degree of freedom is affected by one's economic and social status, whereas advocates of the latter believe that freedom is essentially freedom of choice, or freedom of action. They would argue that even a poor, low-status individual is entirely free in a libertarian society in the sense that he has complete freedom to do whatever he chooses with those few possessions and resources which he has. Some analyze the difference between libertarian socialism and right-wing libertarianism using the concepts of positive liberty and negative liberty. Usually, libertarian socialism is said to promote positive liberty at the expense of negative liberty, whereas right-wing libertarianism is said to do the opposite.

Libertarian socialists believe if freedom is valued, then society must work towards a system in which individuals have the power to decide economic issues along with political issues. Libertarian socialists seek to replace unjustified authority with direct democracy and voluntary federation in all aspects of life, including physical communities and economic enterprises.

Like communists, libertarian socialists believe that objects should be held communally and controlled democratically; the only exception being personal possessions. Whereas "private property" grants an individual exclusive control over a thing whether it is in use or not, "possession" grants no rights to things that are not in use. A property title grants owners the liberty to withhold his property from others, or, if he desires, to require payment from those who wish to use it. "Possession," on the other hand, is not compatible with this form of "exploitation" or "extortion." Possession amounts to the right to use, rather than own, for oneself.


Opposition to the state


Proponents are most famous for opposing the existence of states or government. Indeed, in the past many refused to defend themselves in court because they did not wish to participate in coercive state institutions, instead choosing to go to jail or die.

The critique of states is built on the same principle opposing concentration of authority based on power, which they believe inevitably leads to abuse.

In lieu of states, libertarian socialists seek to organize themselves into voluntary institutions (usually called collectives or syndicates) which use direct democracy or consensus for their decision-making process. Some libertarian socialists advocate combining these institutions using rotating, recallable delegates to higher-level federations. Others, however, have advanced strong critiques of federated systems, and these federations have rarely been carried out in practice. Spanish anarchism is a major example of such federations in practice. Contemporary examples of libertarian socialist organizational and decision-making models in practice include the Zapatista Councils of Good Government and the Global Indymedia network (which covers 45 countries on 6 continents).

Contrary to popular opinion, libertarian socialism has not traditionally been a utopian movement, tending to avoid dense theoretical analysis or prediction of what a future society would or should look like. The tradition instead has been that such decisions cannot be made now, and must be made through struggle and experimentation, so that the best solution can be arrived at democratically and organically, and to base the direction for struggle on established historical example.

Supporters often suggest that this focus on exploration over predetermination is one of their great strengths. They point out that the success of science at explaining the natural world comes from its methods and its adherence to open rational exploration, not its conclusions; whereas traditional dogmatic explanations of naturalistic phenomena have proved almost useless at explaining anything in the natural world.

Although critics claim that they are avoiding questions they cannot answer, libertarian socialists believe that a methodological approach to exploration is the best way to achieve our social goals. To them, dogmatic approaches to social organization are just as doomed to failure as are non-scientific explanations of natural phenomena. Noted anarchist Rudolf Rocker once stated, "I am an anarchist not because I believe anarchism is the final goal, but because there is no such thing as a final goal" (The London Years, 1956).
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Political roots

As Albert Meltzer and Stuart Christie put it in their book The Floodgates of Anarchy, anarchism

has its particular inheritance, part of which it shares with socialism, giving it a family resemblance to certain of its enemies. Another part of its inheritance it shares with liberalism, making it, at birth, kissing-cousins with American-type radical individualism, a large part of which has married out of the family into the Right Wing and is no longer on speaking terms. (The Floodgates of Anarchy, 1970, page 39.)



Conflict with Marxism

In rejecting property and the state, libertarian socialists put themselves in opposition to both capitalist democracy and to authoritarian forms of Marxism. Although anarchists and Marxists are often said to share a belief in the ultimate goal of a stateless society, anarchists criticise most Marxists for advocating a transitional phase under which the state is used to achieve this aim. Nonetheless, libertarian Marxist tendencies such as autonomist Marxism and council communism have historically been intertwined with the anarchist movement. Anarchist movements have come into conflict with both capitalist and Marxist forces, sometimes at the same time, as in the Spanish Civil War, though as in that war Marxists themselves are often divided in support or opposition to anarchism. Other political persecutions under bureaucratic parties have resulted in a strong historical antagonism between anarchists and libertarian Marxists on the one hand and Leninist Marxists on the other (and their descendants, e.g. Maoists). In recent history, however, libertarian socialists have repeatedly formed temporary alliances with Marxist-Leninist groups for the purposes of protest against institutions they both reject.

Part of this antagonism can be traced to the International Workingmen's Association (or the First International), a congress of radical workers, where Mikhail Bakunin, who was fairly representative of the libertarian socialist view, and Karl Marx, whom anarchists accused of being an authoritarian, came into conflict on various issues. Bakunin's viewpoint on the illegitimacy of the State as an institution and the role of electoral politics was starkly counterposed to Marx's views in the First International. Marx and Bakunin's disputes eventually led to Marx taking control of the First International and expelling Bakunin and his followers from the organization. This was the beginning of a long-running feud between libertarian socialists and what they call "authoritarian communists" (or sometimes just "authoritarians"). Of course, some have equally criticised Bakunin for running an invisible dictatorship, and of being just as authoritarian as Marx. Indeed, The Russian Menshevik Fedor Dan criticised Bolshevism for being a product of Bakuninism.

Some Marxists have formulated views that closely resemble syndicalism, and thus express more affinity with anarchist ideas. The American Marxist leader Daniel De Leon, for example, who joined and reorganized the Socialist Labor Party in 1890, advocated a form of "industrial unionism" (known as De Leonism), which was similar to syndicalism, although De Leon himself made a point of distinguishing between the two ideologies. De Leon's insistence on a revolutionary political party working as the political wing of the industrial unions, however, sets him outside of the libertarian socialist current of anarchism (see opposition to the state above).

Several libertarian socialists, notably Noam Chomsky, believe that anarchism shares much in common with certain variants of Marxism such as the council communism of left-wing Marxist Anton Pannekoek. In Chomsky's Notes on Anarchism, he suggests the possibility "that some form of council communism is the natural form of revolutionary socialism in an industrial society. It reflects the belief that democracy is severely limited when the industrial system is controlled by any form of autocratic elite, whether of owners, managers, and technocrats, a 'vanguard' party, or a state bureaucracy."

Autonomist Marxism and situationism are also regarded as being anti-authoritarian variants of Marxism that are firmly within the libertarian socialist tradition.

These arguments are explored more fully at "Anarchism and Marxism".

Libertarian socialist tendencies

Libertarian socialism is composed of a diverse range of tendencies and organizations, with varying degrees of unity depending on specific ideological beliefs. These are of course, only a few of the most historically important factions within libertarian socialism.

Anarchist communism

Main article: Anarchist communism

Anarchist communism was first formulated in the Italian section of the First International, by Carlo Cafiero, Errico Malatesta, Andrea Costa, and other ex-Mazzinian republicans. Out of respect for Mikhail Bakunin, they did not make their differences from standard anarchism explicit until after the latter's death. In 1876, at the Florence Conference of the Italian Federation of the International (which was actually held in a forest outside Florence, due to police activity), they declared the principles of anarcho-communism, beginning with:

"The Italian Federation considers the collective property of the products of labour as the necessary complement to the collectivist programme, the aid of all for the satisfaction of the needs of each being the only rule of production and consumption which corresponds to the principle of solidarity. The federal congress at Florence has eloquently demonstrated the opinion of the Italian International on this point..."

The above report was actually made in an article by Malatesta and Cafiero in the (Swiss) Jura federation's bulletin later that year. Cafiero notes, in Anarchie et Communisme, that private property in the product of labor will lead to unequal accumulation of capital, and therefore undesirable class distinctions.

Anarcho-communists hold that the only road to true liberation of the individual, as well as the abolition of wage slavery and the state, is the complete abolition of market systems; whereas some other anarchists and libertarian socialists advocate collective ownership with market elements and sometimes barter. Anarcho-communists believe the only true liberation comes with a gift economy operated by the collective under direct democracy.

In anarchist communism, profit no longer exists. Not only that, but goods are given away as gifts in the certainty that others will also give products back. In an industrial setting, this would occur between worker syndicates as well as between individuals. If one syndicate does not share their products, they will not receive resources from other syndicates, making it in their best interest to share.

Anarcho-syndicalism

Main article: Anarcho-syndicalism

Anarcho-syndicalism is a branch of anarchism which focuses on the labor movement. Anarcho-syndicalists view labor unions as a potential force for revolutionary social change, replacing capitalism and the state with a new society democratically self-managed by workers.

The basic principles of anarcho-syndicalism are:

1. workers' solidarity
2. direct action
3. workers' self-management

Workers' solidarity means that anarcho-syndicalists believe all workers—no matter their race, gender, or ethnic group—are in a similar situation in regard to their boss' (class consciousness). Furthermore, it means that, within capitalism, any gains or losses made by some workers from or to bosses will eventually affect all workers. Therefore, to liberate themselves, all workers must support one another in their class conflict.

Anarcho-syndicalists believe that only direct action—that is, action concentrated on directly attaining a goal, as opposed to indirect action, such as electing a representative to a government position—will allow workers to liberate themselves.

Moreover, anarcho-syndicalists believe that workers' organizations (the organizations that struggle against the wage system, which, in anarcho-syndicalist theory, will eventually form the basis of a new society) should be self-managing. They should not have bosses or “business agents”; rather, the workers should be able to make all the decisions that affect them themselves.

Rudolf Rocker was one of the most popular voices in the anarcho-syndicalist movement. He outlined a view of the origins of the movement, what it sought, and why it was important to the future of labor in his 1938 pamphlet Anarcho-Syndicalism.

The International Workers Association is an international anarcho-syndicalist federation of various labor unions from different countries. The Spanish Confederación Nacional del Trabajo played and still plays a major role in the Spanish labor movement. It was also an important force in the Spanish Civil War.

Council communism

Main article: Council Communism

Council communism was a radical Left movement originating in Germany and the Netherlands in the 1920s. Its primary organization was the Communist Workers Party of Germany (KAPD). Council communism continues today as a theoretical and activist position within Marxism, and also within libertarian socialism. The central argument of council communism, in contrast to those of Social democracy and Leninist communism, is that workers' councils arising in the factories and municipalities are the natural form of working class organisation and state power. This view is opposed to the reformist and Bolshevik stress on vanguard parties, parliaments, or governments.

The core principle of council communism is that the state and the economy should be managed by workers' councils, composed of delegates elected at workplaces and recallable at any moment. As such, council communists oppose state-run "bureaucratic socialism". They also oppose the idea of a "revolutionary party", since council communists believe that a revolution led by a party will necessarily produce a party dictatorship. Council communists support a workers' democracy, which they want to produce through a federation of workers' councils.

The Russian word for council is "soviet," and during the early years of the revolution worker's councils were politically significant in Russia. It was to take advantage of the aura of workplace power that the word became used by Lenin for various political organs. Indeed, the name "Supreme Soviet," by which the parliament was called; and that of the Soviet Union itself make use of this terminology, but they do not imply any decentralization.

Furthermore, council communists held a critique of the Soviet Union as a capitalist state, believing that the Bolshevik revolution in Russia became a "bourgeois revolution" when a party bureaucracy replaced the old feudal aristocracy. Although most felt the Russian Revolution was working class in character, they believed that, since capitalist relations still existed (because the workers had no say in running the economy), the Soviet Union ended up as a state capitalist country, with the state replacing the individual capitalist. Thus, council communists support workers' revolutions, but oppose one-party dictatorships.

Council communists also believed in diminishing the role of the party to one of agitation and propaganda, rejected all participation in elections or parliament, and argued that workers should leave the reactionary trade unions and form one big revolutionary union.
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Social Ecology

Main Article: Social Ecology

Social Ecology is closely related to the work and ideas of Murray Bookchin and influenced by anarchist Peter Kropotkin. Social ecologists assert that the present ecological crisis has roots in social problems, and that the domination of human over nature is a result of the domination of human over human.

Politically, social ecologists advocate a network of directly democratic citizens' assemblies organized in a confederal fashion. This approach is called Libertarian Municipalism.

Economically, social ecologists favour libertarian communism and the principle "from each according to ability, to each according to need."

The Institute for Social Ecology founded in 1974 in Plainfield, Vermont offers a year-round B.A. and M.A. degree program, workshops, and academic conferences.


Violence in anarchism

Many libertarian socialists see violent revolution as necessary in the abolition of capitalist society. Along with many others, Errico Malatesta argued that the use of violence was necessary; as he put it in Umanità Nova:

It is our aspiration and our aim that everyone should become socially conscious and effective; but to achieve this end, it is necessary to provide all with the means of life and for development, and it is therefore necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies these means to the workers. [1]

However, Proudhon, who people often term "the father of anarchism," argued in favor of a non-violent revolution. The progression towards violence in anarchism stemmed, in part, from the various massacres of the communes that has sprung from Proudhon's own ideas. Anarcho-communists began to see a need for revolutionary violence as a form of collective defense against the involuntary restrictions upheld by property owners. The anarchist movement today consists mostly of non-violent organizations, like BAAM or Anarchist Black Cross.

For more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-01-2005, 06:06 AM
This is probably the closest article I can find that best describes the socialist idealogy I follow and support.

I should however stress that I do not support the violent overthrow of capitolism but rather the overthrow of capitolism via democratic and or cultural change in society,

Igor
11-01-2005, 07:38 AM
Don't expect to change anyone's mind here buddy. Almost everyone here is a right winger who'd rather stick their **** in a wood chipper than use their own name and any combination of the words "left, liberal, socialist" in the same sentence.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-01-2005, 07:41 AM
Mate I have been here long enough to know that.

However the purpose of this topic is to debate this idealogy not to change mines.

It's comments like yours that lead to flames man. Just some advice from an old timer.

nognig
11-01-2005, 08:24 AM
What a load of crap:



Libertarian socialism is any one of a group of political philosophies dedicated to opposing coercive forms of authority and social hierarchy, in particular the institutions of capitalism and the state.

Like communists, libertarian socialists believe that objects should be held communally and controlled democratically; the only exception being personal possessions.


That makes a lot of sense. They are opposed to coercive forms of authority, particularly institutions of the state. Then it goes on to say that objects should be held communally. I assume that would be enforced by "coercive forms of authority, particularly institutions of the state"?

Sounds like a new form of communism.

NN

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-01-2005, 08:32 AM
Actually it's older then communism. And at it's core it is more democratic then any other idealogy.

Durandal
11-01-2005, 09:00 AM
This is probably the closest article I can find that best describes the socialist idealogy I follow and support.

I should however stress that I do not support the violent overthrow of capitolism but rather the overthrow of capitolism via democratic and or cultural change in society,

Ok...except you have repeatedly said things to the contrary. I consider myself a Libertarian. I follow, many ways, the writing of James Madison and think as a single individual, he defined Libertarianism.

The fact that someone has come along and slapped another qualifier to further define Libertarianism using :socialist" is silly.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-01-2005, 09:04 AM
How is it silly?

The basic idea of this idealogy is to give power the people as opposed to the few which is basically what a modern capitolist democracy is.

Even though technically speaking you or I can become President/Prime Minister of our respective countries do you honestly believe that it is possible?

Wodan
11-01-2005, 09:05 AM
I should however stress that I do not support the violent overthrow of capitolism but rather the overthrow of capitolism via democratic and or cultural change in society,

then you are a old style "social democrat", like the ones in germany were till the Godesberger party program.

Durandal
11-01-2005, 09:19 AM
How is it silly?

The basic idea of this idealogy is to give power the people as opposed to the few which is basically what a modern capitolist democracy is.

Even though technically speaking you or I can become President/Prime Minister of our respective countries do you honestly believe that it is possible?

Not in practice and the addition of the socialist aspects to Libertarianism sticks in my crawl. Libertarianism is not just about small government, civil rights, and representative democracy, its about things like property ownership...supporting the right to defend that property from theft be it government or a private individual.

*snort*

"communal property" what a joke.

TheKiwi
11-01-2005, 03:21 PM
Collectivization, or communalization of property is always a form of central power seizing that which others have, and it requires a strong ruling body for it to be effective. Thus, what you call liberterian socialism is a contradiction in terms. (Speaking as one who lived on a commune during the 1970's and had to listen to all the bitching over the commune's property, and the 'point's of order' during the commune council debates).

If you want to read some 'proper' liberterian thoughts, try http://www.reason.com

Flagg
11-01-2005, 04:49 PM
Libertarianism, in my mind, represents personal ownership, control, responsibility and accountability.

Socialism, in my mind, represents collective ownership, control, responsibility, and accountability.

I find it hard to equate Libertarianism with Socialism......to me they're polar opposites, but I Am admittedly a bit biased...I consider my self to be a Libertarian sympathizer......

Sounds a bit like the religious right saying it's perfectly logical to teach intelligent design alongside evolution........it's just fundamentally incompatible...unless I missed something...my eyes did glaze over a bit ;)

nognig
11-01-2005, 05:29 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds "Libertarian Socialism" to be an oxymoron. I consider myself to be a mix between a Conservative and Libertarian.

Libertarianism is about minimizing the government's involvement in peoples lives. Socialism is about giving the gov't more power. The two systems aren't compatible.

My personal opinion is I would rather have a system where there are obvious winners and losers than a system where there are neither. Why even get out of bed in the morning when you know what you do that day will have no impact on your life?

Socialism/Communism is directly at odds with human nature. People like to think that individuals will do what is right for the whole, but it's not true. At least not most of the time. Humans will do what is best for them (and maybe their family/friends). That is why capitalism works. When I go out and make a millions dollars in a capitalist system, I do that by creating jobs, creating new techology and making other people rich at the same time.

I think the biggest problem with current capitalist systems is that 50% of the people don't know how the system works. They don't realize that as long as they go about it the right way, you get most anything you want. It's all about personal choice.

NN

walford
11-01-2005, 06:42 PM
...is by far the most absurd contradiction in terms I've ever seen.

Government ownership of private property -- regardless of intent -- always leads to tyranny. It is merely a derivation of Machiavelli's Divine Right of Kings, in which the benevolent Elite rule for the sake of the ignorant masses. Furthermore, having political and economic power so tightly melded together is too tempting to resist.

The idealists who originally 'cracked' the recalictrant eggs [who selfishly insisted upon keeping what they worked for] to usher in this Ideal Society would be quickly swept from power by thugs -- the inevitable next step when Utopian theory is put into practice.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-01-2005, 08:33 PM
But this idealogy does not aim for a utopian society.

It merely allows through democratic means that the elements of production, economics are run by the people and no one person is harmed by a lack intellect, monotary worth ect.

Basically advancement comes from a scientific approach to society.

The term Liberty as we know it under current context is not liberty. Even in a democratic country. Power is rested in the hands of the few. Those few control the majority of production, economy, property, and government.

walford
11-01-2005, 08:44 PM
Notice the substitution of 'the government' with 'the people.' This is to soften the fact that what is advocated is government ownership of the means of production. Ultimately, the means of production is the people themselves. Thus, socialism in any form is essentially slavery.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-01-2005, 08:52 PM
How so?

The people should be the state. A large part of this idealogy is direct democracy. IE any person can propose legislation and the nation votes on it. Thus removing a large part of the power of the corporation and government. Hence the government is replaced by the people.

As we advance into the technological age, more and more people are going to want this form of government. Which in affect follows the ideals of Athens, but without the corporation idealogy.

walford
11-01-2005, 09:08 PM
The way what you're talking about would work out in practice is a brief period of mob rule, followed by people breaking into factions that would in turn settle which gang is at the reins by means of violence.

A society w/o government [viz. anarchy] is either a theory that is only discussed as a possibility or, if attempted to put into practice, is a transitory period between one form of tyranny and another.

The reason that these theories cannot work is they fail to recognize that people will not behave as a homogenous whole ready to work together.

Only in laissez-faire capitalism [i.e. a complete separation of economics and state] can the natural tendancy for people to maximize their self-interest be beneficial to the whole.

Durandal
11-01-2005, 09:13 PM
It merely allows through democratic means that the elements of production, economics are run by the people and no one person is harmed by a lack intellect, monotary worth ect.

Good heavens. Can you imagine how ƒucked the world would be if my IQ 25 neighbor was allowed to decide production decisions. :)


The term Liberty as we know it under current context is not liberty. Even in a democratic country. Power is rested in the hands of the few. Those few control the majority of production, economy, property, and government.

I disagree. I have a lot of liberty. I want more...sure. Then again, the Libertarian Party always runs lunatics. The problem is simply put...a two party system. We have the right that is not so right...right now :) and the left which is is not so left of right to deserve the name.

That is why, in our arguments about gun control I always amazed by your repeated belief that guns should not, truly, be in the hands of the people. In my country there are a series of checks and balances. You have 3 branches of the government, local and State governments, a Constitution, the press, and gun ownership.

Why do you think all us pro-gun ownership types WANT it that way and are absolutely stunned anyone in their right mind would want it differently (they are either ignorant or want to control the people...rarely both).

But I agree with most that have posted since my last reply. Socialism and Libertarianism are polar extremes...

Durandal
11-01-2005, 09:19 PM
How so?

The people should be the state. A large part of this idealogy is direct democracy. IE any person can propose legislation and the nation votes on it. Thus removing a large part of the power of the corporation and government. Hence the government is replaced by the people..

And it would be a completely ineffectual government. Imagine having to take time to vote on anything any idiot decided he or she wanted the people to consider.

That IS one of the nice thins about a representative democracy. The people elect someone that will vote for them...proxy if you will. It streamlines the government and, in theory makes it, FAR FAR more efficient then having any Tom, ****, or Harry propose issues...

*shudder*

And no, this is NOT something that everyone is going to want. People have a hard enough time getting out to vote once or twice a year, much less daily. People have lives. If I wan to lead this nation I'll run for office. if I want to influence it I'll participate as I always do, by giving copious amounts of money to the NRA, participating on campaigns, and getting the word out.

Major Maxillary
11-01-2005, 09:52 PM
as a rule of thumb; any political group whose name contains the words Socialism, marxism, or humanism, is complete bull****. kthxbye.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-02-2005, 06:02 AM
I'm not saying this is the be all to end all. There is some things that I am against. Home ownership for example.

But it was simply just to create discussion on the type of idealogy I follow.

Durandal
11-02-2005, 06:08 AM
I'm not saying this is the be all to end all. There is some things that I am against. Home ownership for example.

But it was simply just to create discussion on the type of idealogy I follow.

You are against home ownership?

Let me understand this correctly. You are against people owning homes and thus...property?

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-02-2005, 06:11 AM
No. I am not against home ownership.


I'm not saying this is the be all to end all. There is some things that I am against that has been mentioned in this wiki article. Home ownership for example is a right everyone should enjoy.

That sound better?

:)

uhramechi
11-02-2005, 08:39 AM
The only good socialism, is the socialism that doesnt exist.

the socialism is only a sickness that destroy everthing that iis human, destroy everthing that is divine, in also destroy the individual right of the people.

so for me the only goo socialism is the socialism that doesnt exist

Major Maxillary
11-03-2005, 03:22 AM
There is some things that I am against that has been mentioned in this wiki article.. Home ownership for example.



No. I am not against home ownership.

so you are against home ownership?

otherwise your choice of wording is very contradictory.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-03-2005, 04:23 AM
Check edited pots.

hughdotoh
11-03-2005, 07:00 AM
Socialism leads to 1984 leads to Animal Farm.

And besides, while Socialism promotes equality, some eventually are more equal than others.

It didn't work in Eastern Europe.

It didn't work in Russia.

It didn't work in California.

Major Maxillary
11-03-2005, 07:23 AM
Check edited pots.

I did.

You said that "there are some things you are against that are mentioned in the article, namely home ownership."

Yt is my experience that when someone says that particular arrangement of words that they mean "they are against home ownership."

English is your second language, yes?

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-03-2005, 07:30 AM
I'm not saying this is the be all to end all. There is some things that I am against that has been mentioned in this wiki article. Home ownership for example is a right everyone should enjoy.

Major Maxillary
11-03-2005, 07:49 AM
I'm not saying this is the be all to end all. There is some things that I am against that has been mentioned in this wiki article. Home ownership for example is a right everyone should enjoy.

I never assumed you implied that this was the difinitive answer to politics.
I'm stating that your choice of words leads people to belive that you're against home owvership when you profess the opposite.

For example; the phrase "there are some things that I am against that has been mentioned in this wiki article, like Home ownership," implys that you are against home ownership. a better arrangement would be "There are things in the article that i dissagree with, like it's stance on home ownership."

They may seem the same, but the latter makes your point far more clear. Whereas the former is quite ambiguous.

I could be a friggin' Ingles teacher.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-03-2005, 08:25 AM
Haha that's alright.

My english is fooking hopeless.

Give me numbers and I can do anything. Get me to string a sentance together and yeah you get the idea.

Durandal
11-03-2005, 10:01 AM
Haha that's alright.

My english is fooking hopeless.

Give me numbers and I can do anything. Get me to string a sentance together and yeah you get the idea.

Actually, as much as I disagree with you on most issues, I'll hand you this compliment.

Your written English is better than some native speakers. The University of Cincinnati just added several sub-100 courses in both Math and English for incoming Freshman whose skills in these areas are sub-par and keep them from participating in anything remotely resembling a college level course. Forget the informed argument for they have problems with participles and adverbs...and high school level algebra. Nor is U.C. the only university adding these programs. Education for some in this nation is at a VERY sad state.

walford
11-03-2005, 06:46 PM
^^^ I have to second that. Having just got my BA, studying with these youngsters has been a real eye-opener. The journalism students were good, but most of the other undergrads were writing at about what was the 8th grade level when I was their age. Maybe grad school will be different.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
11-03-2005, 06:57 PM
I think eduactional standards has dropped.

My english and grammer is not the best I'll be the 1st to admit that. I'm just extremely lucky that the 2 career choices I am qualified and experianced to work in a largely mathatics based.

Boilermaker (metal smith) and finance officer/admin/sec/pa But I do struggle at writing corrospondance at times that are not of professional nature.

walford
11-04-2005, 12:58 AM
Well if you need help with your writing,, you'll be happy to know that firefighter from the moon (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=7262) is back.woot