Greek President leaves Albania after provocations

[PELASGOS]

He was supposed to meet his Albanian counterpart but a group of

demonstrators stormed the area outside the meeting site shouting for

'Chameria' as they call the Greek Hepirus region. They demand return of their

houses and their properties which were confiscated after WW2 becouse of

their collaboration with Germany and Italy. Many were court martialed by

military tribunals for war crimes against Greek population in Hepirus.


DEMARCHE TO ALBANIA ON THE CANCELLATION OF THE MEETING OF THE PRESIDENTS OF GREECE AND ALBANIA
Athens, 1 November 2005 (17:17 UTC+2)


Such behaviours do not contribute to the mutual effort for the continuous improvement of bilateral relations and to Albania's European prospect, stresses the Hellenic Republic Presidency Office in a statement issued on the occasion of the incidents in Sarante that led to the cancellation of the scheduled meeting of Hellenic Republic President Karolos Papoulias with his Albanian counterpart Alfred Moisiu.

In the relevant statement it is stressed that the Hellenic Republic Presidency expresses regret for the cancellation of the scheduled for today informal meeting of the Presidents of Greece and Albania after the unacceptable behavior of extremist elements who insist in promoting non existent issues.

Meanwhile, Greece's ambassador to Tirana received the order to make a strong protest demarche as soon as the incidents recorded during President Papoulias' visit to Albania were made known.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos stressed that the Albanian authorities did not take the necessary measures for an unobstructed meeting between President Papoulias and his Albanian counterpart in Sarante. In addition, the necessary measures were not taken aimed at discouraging the known extremist elements who in their efforts to hinder the smooth progress of bilateral relations insist in promoting unacceptable non existent issues at a time when Albania tries to make steps toward the fulfillment of its European prospect.

The Hellenic Republic President has already returned to Greece

[achilles]

Good. And may he never return until they contain their extremist elements.

[PELASGOS]

Good. And may he never return until they contain their extremist elements.

They should contain their parliament first becouse this is official policy.

The Albanians understand only by slapping- Slobodan Milosevic:)

[SerbPVO]

Why did he even go to this silly "country"?

[achilles]

I dont think its fair to call Albania a 'silly' country, irrespective of how much there are things we dont like about it. Its an underdeveloped country struggling to get to the surface. True, education, mentalities and standards of living still have a long way to go but they seem to be working on it.

It would be best if they abandoned their 'expansionist' utopic visions of the 'Greater Albania' cause it promotes nothing fruitful. It can never happen whatsoever.

[PELASGOS]

Why did he even go to this silly "country"?

He was returning a visit of the Albanian president .

[Shqiptari]

Good. And may he never return until they contain their extremist elements.

50 old men with plackards are indeed a dangerous extremist element...may he never retrun indeed.



They should contain their parliament first becouse this is official policy.


And you know this...HOW??



The Albanians understand only by slapping- Slobodan Milosevic:-)


Guess who is having his butt-cheeks slapped around in a jailhouse in Hague...hehe



Why did he even go to this silly "country"?


Because the "Serbia Great Adventure" rollercoaster ride was closed down for repairs...



dont think its fair to call Albania a 'silly' country, irrespective of how much there are things we dont like about it.


You don't like us???



It would be best if they abandoned their 'expansionist' utopic visions of the 'Greater Albania' cause it promotes nothing fruitful. It can never happen whatsoever.


Oh...you know it...we can't help ourselves...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4397470.stm


Albania protest halts Greek visit

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40972000/jpg/_40972306_protest_story_ap.jpg The Chams say they were badly treated by Greece

Greek President Karolos Papoulias has cut short a visit to neighbour Albania, after a minority group's protest which Athens described as disruptive.
Up to 200 demonstrators from the Albanian Muslim Cham clan gathered outside a hotel where Mr Papoulias was due to meet counterpart Alfred Moisiu.
The Greek foreign ministry said Albania had not taken steps to ensure a trouble-free meeting.
Albania said the protest was peaceful and Greece's decision unjustified.
"We express our deep regret after this hasty and unexplained decision of the Greek delegation, based on misinformation despite assurances given by the Albanian side," said presidential spokesman Aferdita Sokoli.
'Unacceptable issues'
The two presidents were due to meet in the southern Albanian town of Sarande, opposite the Greek island of Corfu, on Tuesday afternoon.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif


But Mr Papoulias waited at a Greek consulate in another town, Gjirokaster, after hearing about the protest, and left for home when demonstrators failed to disperse.
"The Albanian authorities... did not take measures to deter known extreme elements, who in their effort to block the smooth development of the countries' ties present unacceptable, non-existent issues at a time when Albania is taking steps towards completing its European expectations," a Greek foreign ministry statement said.
Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say. They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953.
The demonstrators, carrying banners reading "We want justice" and "Stop the indifference", were demanding compensation for or restitution of properties confiscated by the Greek government. "We want basic rights. That is our land, our property. We thank the Albanian people for keeping us until now but we want to be back at our land," demonstrator Rexhep Ceno told AP news agency. Albanian officials and local media said the demonstration was peaceful and under police control.



Hmm...evil Albanians...look at the threatening demenour of that 6 year old boy!! Obviously he is an extremist ultra-nationalist element that "stormed" the building!!

Look...if you guys can't handle a peaceful demonstration of 200 old men and little kids...what kind of a "democracy" are you then?? We are a democracy...we let people demonstrate if they want to...and they did...There's nothing wrong with it...nor is there anything "disruptive" with it.

If you rpresident is bothered by the sight of some demonstrators outside his window...well...as you said...may he never return.

[Shqiptari]

Hell...this is the stuff you do when people visit your country

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/528012.stm

And you complain that 200 old men were holding signs peacefully. :bash:

[achilles]

Hell...this is the stuff you do when people visit your country

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/528012.stm

And you complain that 200 old men were holding signs peacefully. :bash:


Let me tell you this...those people were protesting against Clinton's decision to bomb the hell out of Serbian people...fair enough isnt it?

Now the comment that 'this is the stuff we do when people visit my country' is just another fine demo of your complexes...any more of these moronic generilizations and you will certainly qualify for my ****head list.


Oh, and we complain cause we have very little tolerance towards Albanian ****...simple?

[Shqiptari]

Now the comment that 'this is the stuff we do when people visit my country' is just another fine demo of your complexes...any more of these moronic generilizations and you will certainly qualify for my ****head list.


Ok....lol



Oh, and we complain cause we have very little tolerance towards Albanian ****...simple?


Keep complaining...what do I care...lol

[Vorian]

Geez, this person doesn't know how to keep his mouth shut.

[Kontra1]

Ok....lol



Keep complaining...what do I care...lol

LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned...and he will too..he's got a buddy among the mods.

Kontra1

[Vorian]

LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned ;)

Kontra1

Yeah, the Greeks in this forum have a cope with the mods and ban every user who "dares to tell the truth about the Greek attrocities". Keep up the good work mods.

I wonder why nobody believes you...wait..I found it! Cause the things our Albanian friend says, are less believable than the UFO conspiraces.

[Kontra1]

Yeah, the Greeks in this forum have a cope with the mods and ban every user who "dares to tell the truth about the Greek attrocities". Keep up the good work mods.

I wonder why nobody believes you...wait..I found it! Cause the things our Albanian friend says, are less believable than the UFO conspiraces.

Hah...there is enough ppl here that believes me dude...don't you worry about that.

They're just worried about ending up in the "greek ****head list" by showing support.Look how the Shqiptari is being treated since his first supportive post about the Turks.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60140

Kontra1

[Shqiptari]

I'm not particularly interested in convincing anyone in this forum of anything...Greek attrocities, ethnic cleansing and megalomania are well documented and well known...certainly not in Greece though...but you ask anyone who lives anywhere near Greece and you'll see. Well Greeks know it too...they just can't admitt it...

I don't really need to say a hell of a lot about a country that threatens to invade another country becasue they don't like their flag...

But...thansk to our Turkish friends...things are kept in check a bit :)



He'll start calling you all kinds of names


But that would hurt my feelings...:-(



and he'll even threaten to get you banned...and he will too..he's got a buddy among the mods.



Well if this forum bans bepople for having a discussion on something they don't agree on...then maybe this forum isn't worth being in.



Geez, this person doesn't know how to keep his mouth shut.


Why you have some issue with what I'v said?? Don't make me tell this 6-year old kid on you...he already scared your president back to Greece...he's quite a little menace...the little extremist radical he is!!
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40972000/jpg/_40972306_protest_story_ap.jpg

[Little Johnny]

What Greek atrocities? Greece is in Nato and the EU. These organizations would of kicked Greece out if it had committed atrocities. :|

[PELASGOS]

Not a word about the Albanian collaboration with Axis powers in WW2.

Then they entered the commie side. Always the wrong choice. Milosevic is in

Hague because of politics. That is why the US deny the founding of an

international criminal court. Do you know that the stuff of Hague prosecutor

includes active agents of FBI and U.S intelligence ? How many Serb

civilians were killed by NATO and by UCK? Albanians are currently guinea pigs

for criminologists due to their criminal behaviour.

[achilles]

LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned...and he will too..he's got a buddy among the mods.

Kontra1


Again with the same old crap, kardas? Nothing new to say?;)


You should keep in mind that you offend the mods by posting your hallucinating crap...now please expose something about my country...i am already trembling...:lol:

[achilles]

Well if this forum bans bepople for having a discussion on something they don't agree on...then maybe this forum isn't worth being in.


For your own sake dont believe Kontra's **** Shqiptari. His ass still hurts from the continuous shafting he has gone through with everyone he debated with, and now he is making up stories about me 'having a buddy among the mods'...this is how far he can get.

And from what i have seen this forum bans assholes for being...assholes;)

[walford]

I don't have an axe to grind here -- and am certainly not MP.net's favorite son -- but when you make a habit of posting pics of guys holding aloft severed heads saying that the same will happen to your nemesis unless his mother provides sufficient ****** services...Well...

It was amazing to many on the outside how soon after the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact collapsed, real or imagined offenses that were committed 2 generations earlier flared up into indiscriminate bloodshed almost immediately.Being a foreign policy student, I would like to learn more about why the inter-Balkan/East European/Russian/Turkish hatred runs so deep.

Perhaps all of you might consider citing references and discussing them rather than embarassing yourselves with the personal attacks. Some of you might consider the possibility that you have been raised w/a considerable amount of biased education/news that may require supplemental info and reconsideration.

Let us please learn more about this important region. Consider it an opportunity.

[Vorian]

I don't have an axe to grind here -- and am certainly not MP.net's favorite son -- but when you make a habit of posting pics of guys holding aloft severed heads saying that the same will happen to your nemesis unless his mother provides sufficient ****** services...Well...

It was amazing to many on the outside how soon after the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact collapsed, real or imagined offenses that were committed 2 generations earlier flared up into indiscriminate bloodshed almost immediately.Being a foreign policy student, I would like to learn more about why the inter-Balkan/East European/Russian/Turkish hatred runs so deep.

Perhaps all of you might consider citing references and discussing them rather than embarassing yourselves with the personal attacks. Some of you might consider the possibility that you have been raised w/a considerable amount of biased education/news that may require supplemental info and reconsideration.

Let us please learn more about this important region. Consider it an opportunity.


It is claimed that the problem with Balkans is 'too much history'. To understand what happens in this region requires more than a simple thread.

[Vorian]

I'm not particularly interested in convincing anyone in this forum of anything...Greek attrocities, ethnic cleansing and megalomania are well documented and well known...certainly not in Greece though...but you ask anyone who lives anywhere near Greece and you'll see. Well Greeks know it too...they just can't admitt it...

I don't really need to say a hell of a lot about a country that threatens to invade another country becasue they don't like their flag...

But...thansk to our Turkish friends...things are kept in check a bit

Ignorance....well I should answer cause you piss me off.


Greek attrocities, ethnic cleansing
Find a source which describes such incidents. Ethnic cleansing was commited by Turks in Asia minor and Constantinople. On the other hand, the muslim minority in Thrace lives under the protection of the state, completely free.
Not to mention the armed gangs that attacked Greeks in southern Albania to prevent them from voting.

megalomania

If you mean our pride for our history nobody can blame us for that.


you ask anyone who lives anywhere near Greece and you'll see.

Yeah, ask the Turks and the Albanians and you will get a fair and true answer about what's happening.


I don't really need to say a hell of a lot about a country that threatens to invade another country becasue they don't like their flag...
I guess you mean FYROM. We protested diplomaticaly against their flag in which appeared the star of Vergina and about the name Macedonia. No threats about invasions were made. The only threat against that country is the Albanian extremists. people like you.

PS: A friend of mine is an Albanian who lives in Greece. I showed him your posts. He began to laugh but gradually he got angry and ashamed 'cause your views and ideas, really ashame the Albanian nation.

[achilles]

^^^True. The Balkan region is so complex that it would take more than a few good books to get started. Yet, i could point out a few points of distinct importance.

---The peninsula is a huge crossroad. Way too many ethnic groups lived, fought, died, settled in for good here. The beaty of the landscape along with the Hellenic Civilization is what made the place a magnet for almost everyone else to come here and claim a piece of Balkan land. This mixture of diverse people was bound to spark conflict, even between peoples belonging to the same ethnic group.
---The Ottoman rule. The Ottoman carcinogenic presence in the region for at least 400 years, maintained the broader region in a relatively primitive condition (compared to Western Europe that is), that 'favoured' some, but devastated others. Note, that it is the Ottoman presence that introduced Islam in the region, thankfully not at a large scale. This contributed to the accummulation of more hatred between those who opposed the Ottoman cancer, and those who appear to have benefited from them. (an example of that can be Serbia and the Bosnian Muslims.)
---The Balkan Wars. Two important conflicts that further charged an already overstretched region. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Wars
---The Genocides induced by the Young Turk regime and Moustafa Kemal Ataturk, primarily against the Armenians and Pontian Greeks. This is also known as the 'Christian Holocaust', an organized attempt by the collapsing Ottoman empire/newly created state of 'Turkey' to glue its pieces together.
---The presence of many 'allien' elements in the broader region of Macedonia. This, throughout the years, has sparked a very deep hatred among everybody claiming that Macedonia is his, i.e. The Bulgarians, some Albanians, and this mixture of Slavs/Turks/Bulgarians/Albanians/Greeks who identify themselves as 'Macedonians'...FYROM (or Skopje) that is.
---World War II. Put in a very simplistic fashion, it further divided the region between those who collaborated with Hitler and those who fought him. The prime collaborators were the Croats, Bosnians and a good part of the Albanians. The Turkish role is ambiguous yet two things are for sure: they didnt oppose him and they sure provided him with a valuable substance: chromium.
---During the post-war period there are various events/conditions that sustained the deep hatred of the region. Tito's rule in conjuction with the broader status of 'cold war', the ever lasting Greco-Turkish conflicts, the Turkish operation 'ATTILA' that ethnically cleansed N.Cyprus, and the collapse of 'Yugoslavia' that lead to incidents like the Srebrenica massacre, the Croat attrocities against Serbian civilians and the rest are more or less known.

My 2 cents...the topic is huge, and extremely interesting.

[achilles]

Vorian dont bother too much, man...our Albanian friend, who perceives the Turks as a stabilizing power in the region :lol:, apparently is not the brightest and sure has huge deficits in terms of historical knowledge.

[Vorian]

Yeah, I am not going to write anymore in this topic, unless we get back to the subject

[Kontra1]

Ignorance....well I should answer cause you piss me off.


Find a source which describes such incidents. Ethnic cleansing was commited by Turks in Asia minor and Constantinople. On the other hand, the muslim minority in Thrace lives under the protection of the state, completely free.
Not to mention the armed gangs that attacked Greeks in southern Albania to prevent them from voting.


If you mean our pride for our history nobody can blame us for that.



Yeah, ask the Turks and the Albanians and you will get a fair and true answer about what's happening.


I guess you mean FYROM. We protested diplomaticaly against their flag in which appeared the star of Vergina and about the name Macedonia. No threats about invasions were made. The only threat against that country is the Albanian extremists. people like you.

Oh man...isn't there exists a single greek who knows their history correct? I went over this with your friends on this board before...and now you.

In the previous article (part V) I covered the period 1903 to 1913 including the Young Turk uprising and the first and second Balkan wars.

In this article (part VI) I will cover the effects of Macedonia's partition and the practices and policies of its subjugators.

The jubilance of liberation died down quickly as the fires of burning villages lit the night skies. Macedonia was in flames again, liberators turned to occupiers and rained havoc on the Macedonian population. The political, economic and ethnic unity of Macedonia was no more. Greek soldiers who came to liberate their Christian brothers from the oppressive Turks and terrible Bulgarians were now burning, torturing, and murdering people. In the words of Sir Edmond Grey, "the Balkan war began as a war of liberation, became rapidly a war of annexation, and has ended as a war of extermination"(Page 294, Vasil Bogov, Macedonian Revelation, Historical Documents Rock and Shatter Modern Political Ideology).

The Greek atrocities were revealed to the world when a lost mailbag was discovered containing letters from Greek soldiers in Macedonia to their families in Greece. The mailbag was turned in to the Carnegie Relief Commission and the contents of the letters were made public. Expecting to fight for the glory of the fatherland, the soldiers instead, found themselves torturing, murdering, burning houses and evicting women and children from their homes in a most vile way. The letters revealed that the soldiers were acting on direct orders from the Greek authorities and the Greek king himself.

November 2002
By Risto Stefov

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov10.html


Soon after arriving victorious in Greece, Venizelos in a speech in Solun, announced his plans for a "Greater Greece" (Megali Idea) and for the bringing of all "Greek peoples" together under a single Greater Greek State.

I remember as a child listening to old men in my village, sitting on the porch telling tales of bygone wars when as young soldiers they chased the Turks to Ankara yelling "two Turks to a bayonet". They also told stories of how it took them sixty days to gain sixty miles and how they lost them in one day of retreat. I didn't understand what they were talking about then but they were talking about the Greek exploits in Asia Minor. As I mentioned earlier, after building up a large military presence in Asia Minor, a major offensive was launched in March 1921, and by the end of the summer, the Greek armies reached the Sakarya River about forty miles from Ankara.

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov10.html

Kontra1

[Kontra1]

^^^True. The Balkan region is so complex that it would take more than a few good books to get started. Yet, i could point out a few points of distinct importance.

---The peninsula is a huge crossroad. Way too many ethnic groups lived, fought, died, settled in for good here. The beaty of the landscape along with the Hellenic Civilization is what made the place a magnet for almost everyone else to come here and claim a piece of Balkan land. This mixture of diverse people was bound to spark conflict, even between peoples belonging to the same ethnic group.
---The Ottoman rule. The Ottoman carcinogenic presence in the region for at least 400 years, maintained the broader region in a relatively primitive condition (compared to Western Europe that is), that 'favoured' some, but devastated others. Note, that it is the Ottoman presence that introduced Islam in the region, thankfully not at a large scale. This contributed to the accummulation of more hatred between those who opposed the Ottoman cancer, and those who appear to have benefited from them. (an example of that can be Serbia and the Bosnian Muslims.)

Typical lousy looser approach and typical greek...hiding the facts behind the "Turko/Ottomanphobia and Islamophobia" curtain.

Those who are willing to "buy" it will always do so, but those who are willing to learn something will always listen or read.

After all...who would buy the bs behind the Cyprus history and believe that 18% Turks were to etnically cleanse the 78% greeks on the island...I guess same people that belives the other historical bs you've been spreading around.


CHRISTIANS AND JEWS IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE
The Functioning of a Plural Society
EDITED BY BENJAMIN BRAUDE AND BERNARD LEWIS

VOLUME I THE CENTRAL LANDS

HOLMES & MEIER PUBLISHERS, INC. NEW YORK LONDON

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=52272246

The Ottoman Turks were Muslims. While the sultans who ran the empire were acknowledged as the legal successors of Mohammad, they did not impose Islamic law on non-Muslims. The Ottoman Turks allowed Christians, Jews, and people of other faiths to practice their beliefs in peace. Arabs, Persians, Kurds, Maronites, and Armenians all maintained strong cultural identities within the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.mrdowling.com/608-ottoman.html



---The Genocides induced by the Young Turk regime and Moustafa Kemal Ataturk, primarily against the Armenians and Pontian Greeks. This is also known as the 'Christian Holocaust', an organized attempt by the collapsing Ottoman empire/newly created state of 'Turkey' to glue its pieces together.

You call it whatever you want....for us, it was the war of existence.It was a war against the occupiers and their collabrators of my country.Just like your war against the Ottomans...wait, they were muslims and deserved to be butchered and after all, when you attacked Turkey, you were only taking your "old country" back after 500 years ;)

It took a whole year and a half for the Allies to agree on what to do with Turkey. They unveiled the final document, the Treaty of Sevres, in May of 1920. Most of the Turkish homeland, the Anatolian peninsula, would have to be left to the Turks, of course, but President Wilson felt that the Armenians deserved a state of their own in the northeast. In addition, the French wanted the land next to their Syrian mandate (Cilicia), and the Zone of the Straits was declared an international area, where only Allied troops could be stationed. Finally, the Allies rewarded the Greeks richly for their small participation in World War I: they got all of Turkey-in-Europe except Constantinople, and an unspecified amount of land around Smyrna. To nobody's surprise, the sultan signed it and Kemal rejected it. Kemal did not miss the loss of the Arab lands, but under no circumstances would he give anything to the Greeks, traditional enemies of the Turks. However, the Greeks had been expecting that and had already transferred the bulk of their army to Smyrna. At the beginning of 1921 they launched an offensive, pushing eastward almost effortlessly.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/Venizelos.jpg

A Greek propaganda poster shows how much of Turkey the Greeks expected to get after World War I. Had these boundaries gone into effect, Greece would have gained all the land that belonged to the Byzantine Empire in the late thirteenth century, before the Ottoman Empire got started (see Chapter 12). A picture of the Greek prime minister, Eleutherios Venizelos, appears in the top left corner.

Kemal now found himself facing enemies in every direction, while he was hard pressed just to clothe his troops (he required every home to supply a kit of underwear, socks and shoes). He survived because of successful diplomacy on the eastern and southern fronts. Italy and the new Soviet Union gave him aid, and while he had to give most of Transcaucasia to the Soviets, he did get to keep the Kars region of Armenia. That gave him a free hand to eliminate the Armenian separatists--there would be no Armenian state while he had any say in the matter! To the south, the French were concerned about their Syrian problem and purchased Kemal's neutrality by handing over Cilicia to him.
Meanwhile in the west, the Greeks were coming closer, advancing two-thirds of the way to Angora before they were stopped. But stopped they were, on the banks of the Sakarya river. There, late in the summer of 1921, Greeks and Turks battled along a sixty-mile front for twenty-two days and nights. Kemal's tactic was to divide his army into individual units, each operating independently of the others, so that there was no Turkish line of defense to break. "There is no linear defense," he explained. "There is a surface defense, and the surface is the entire territory of the nation." Fighting for their lives and country, the Turks wore down the Greeks, and by the end of the year the scales had tipped Kemal's way.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/ne15.html#Sakarya


---The presence of many 'allien' elements in the broader region of Macedonia. This, throughout the years, has sparked a very deep hatred among everybody claiming that Macedonia is his, i.e. The Bulgarians, some Albanians, and this mixture of Slavs/Turks/Bulgarians/Albanians/Greeks who identify themselves as 'Macedonians'...FYROM (or Skopje) that is.

---World War II. Put in a very simplistic fashion, it further divided the region between those who collaborated with Hitler and those who fought him. The prime collaborators were the Croats, Bosnians and a good part of the Albanians.


The Turkish role is ambiguous yet two things are for sure: they didnt oppose him and they sure provided him with a valuable substance: chromium.

the only chronium factory in the country was owned bey a Jewish person ;)

Turkey in WWII

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/turkey.html



---During the post-war period there are various events/conditions that sustained the deep hatred of the region. Tito's rule in conjuction with the broader status of 'cold war', the ever lasting Greco-Turkish conflicts, the Turkish operation 'ATTILA' that ethnically cleansed N.Cyprus,

Ah yes...preventing the ethnic clensing of the Turkish Cypriots on the island. Again, hiding the truth behind the Turko/Ottoman/Islamophobia curtain and hoping ppl to think "well..the Turks must have done it...if they haven't, they deserve it anyways"(referring to 500 years old history) ;)

Many thinks the Cyprus conflict started with the invasion of the N.Cyprus by the Turks(in order to intervene the ethic cleansing of the Turkish minority),but the events had started long ago.

We simply can't do anything with the ppl who has fixed views of the conflicts, but we will always provide the info about the truth,knowing there are also ppl who are seeking to hear what others has to say...esp third parties.

Here is the conflict from the British and peace keeping troops' perspective.

*Please read*

When will we see the full picture?

By David Carter with, former UNFICYP Staff Sergeant Robert Alftan of Finland.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/MACEY/macey.html


and the collapse of 'Yugoslavia' that lead to incidents like the Srebrenica massacre, the Croat attrocities against Serbian civilians and the rest are more or less known.

Ah yes...that's too more or less known

Kontra1

[Atlantic Friend]

What Greek atrocities? Greece is in Nato and the EU. These organizations would of kicked Greece out if it had committed atrocities. :|


Well, Greece was entirely ostracized and nearly kicked out of the EEC when it was led by the militray junta.

[Vorian]

I said I wouldn't bother answering but...my friend Kontra, the first site you provide is a Scopian site. it is natural to write whatever they want. This is why I have never posted anything from Greek sites. If you want us to believe you,find some outside info and show it.
Btw, speaking about Balkan history, take a look http://www.hri.org/docs/inter/96-04-04.doc.html

PS: Yeah, I don't know history. Actually I don't know your side of history.
I am ashamed but I haven't heard anything about the 16 Turkish empires :) :) LoL

And about Greater Greece, these are plans of the past. We just want to live in peace and prosperity but we are not allowed by our turkish friends. Instead of strengthening our economy, we invest billions on aircrafts and tanks. Sad but true.

[Vorian]

Well, Greece was entirely ostracized and nearly kicked out of the EEC when it was led by the militray junta.

The military regime of that period, was not supported by the population and hunted down thousand Greek citizens. Plus, it was supported by US. Strange isn't it?

[Kontra1]

I said I wouldn't bother answering but...my friend Kontra, the first site you provide is a Scopian site. it is natural to write whatever they want.

You mean a Macedonian site.Don't you think they should have a voice in a matter concerning them? All these facts were unknown untill they recently got their own voice to tell it.

Maybe this is why you deniy them a recognition as Macedonians.

Oh Btw..the link you provided (HR.Net) IS a greek site ;)

But this isn't...

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/MACEY/macey.html


Kontra1

[achilles]

Kontra, i am sorry to tell you that you are a dead brain my man...way too settled in, misinformed and brainwashed. Your bitching has become so tiresome that i wont bother answering this time. You are obviously way too desperate in trying to make a true jewel out of your void Ottoman 'empire'...;)...and your Turkiye heaven on earth...how is Norway doing those days BTW?

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/Venizelos.jpg

^^^Now this made me shed a tear....duh...sooner or later....;)



:lol:

[Vorian]

Kontra the link doesn't work. Find another or correct it plz.

[Kontra1]

Kontra the link doesn't work. Find another or correct it plz.

I will pm it to anyone who's interested in seeing it ;)




Kontra1

[Vorian]

Pm me I am curious. I wonder what did you come up with. maybe another theory that depicts us as murdering, bloodthirsty demons, ready to slaughter innocents?

[achilles]

Pm me I am curious. I wonder what did you come up with. maybe another theory that depicts us as murdering, bloodthirsty demons, ready to slaughter innocents?


Hey dont forget to check this one out as well:

http://www.greekmurderers.net/

:lol:


Hey, Kontra...Vorian is telling you that the link does not work and it does not work indeed. Why is it so difficult to understand that you are not intimidating anyone and you are perceived more as a clown rather than a threat?

Fix the link...must be entertaining...

[Kontra1]

It's working :)

[achilles]

It's working :)

Thats because you fixed it ;)


Interesting...two Brits suspected to be killed by Greek Cypriots. Plus, info on unjustified killings committed by GC's against TC civilians...we have been through that before...and the point is? The Brits should keep their mouths shut when the discussion comes to Cyprus, and in any case your link does not change the fact that you were pretty happy you found the right pretext to blatantly invade the island, ethnically cleanse its Northern part, and sustain your very own people in misery and completely detached from the island's European route ever since 1974. Not to mention all the looting, destroying and abuse on the archaelogical heritage of the turf you still occupy. I still dont get under which reasonable criteria 18% of the island's populace occupies almost 40% of the land.

[walford]

OK, I have a few observations to offer as an outsider.

Apparently, there was a high-level meeting between Greek and Albanian officials which was attended by a reportedly peaceful demonstration that did not disrupt the meeting. The Greek president had ‘heard’ about the protest concerning what he called “unacceptable, non-existent issues.”

The issues in question are Albanian demands to have lands seized after WWII because of alleged collaboration with the NAZIs returned. There seems to be little acknowledgement on the Albanians’ part of this collaboration and not much more desire on the Greeks’ part to consider whether such wholesale guilt merits review.

In the back-and-forth exchanges in this thread, the fact that the Albanian protest was peaceful was emphasized, noting that a Greek one when against Clinton turned violent. This violence was characterized as justified, given that the issue was American bombing of Serbia.

Various citations of evidence were offered and rejected, demonstrating that it is difficult to find objective, dispassionate accounts of past or present from that part of the world.

I did not entertain the side discussions about Turkish vs. Greek aggression/genocide. Further, the following bits of inflammatory rhetoric – no matter what the context – seemed to detract from the exchange of information.


The Albanians understand only by slapping- Slobodan Milosevic
Why did he even go to this silly "country"?
...the comment that 'this is the stuff we do when people visit my country' is just another fine demo of your complexes...any more of these moronic generilizations and you will certainly qualify for my ****head list.
Oh, and we complain cause we have very little tolerance towards Albanian ****...simple?
LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned...and he will too..he's got a buddy among the mods.
I wonder why nobody believes you...wait..I found it! Cause the things our Albanian friend says, are less believable than the UFO conspiraces.
Greek attrocities, ethnic cleansing and megalomania are well documented and well known...certainly not in Greece though...but you ask anyone who lives anywhere near Greece and you'll see. Well Greeks know it too...they just can't admitt it...
Albanians are currently guinea pigs for criminologists due to their criminal behaviour.
You should keep in mind that you offend the mods by posting your hallucinating crap...now please expose something about my country...i am already trembling...

For your own sake dont believe Kontra's **** Shqiptari. His ass still hurts from the continuous shafting he has gone through with everyone he debated with, and now he is making up stories about me 'having a buddy among the mods'...this is how far he can get.

And from what i have seen this forum bans assholes for being...assholes
gnorance....well I should answer cause you piss me off.

A friend of mine is an Albanian who lives in Greece. I showed him your posts. He began to laugh but gradually he got angry and ashamed 'cause your views and ideas, really ashame the Albanian nation.
...our Albanian friend, who perceives the Turks as a stabilizing power in the region , apparently is not the brightest and sure has huge deficits in terms of historical knowledge.
Oh man...isn't there exists a single greek who knows their history correct?

Typical lousy looser approach and typical greek...hiding the facts behind the "Turko/Ottomanphobia and Islamophobia" curtain. Those who are willing to "buy" it will always do so, but those who are willing to learn something will always listen or read.
i am sorry to tell you that you are a dead brain my man...way too settled in, misinformed and brainwashed. Your bitching has become so tiresome that i wont bother answering this time. You are obviously way too desperate in trying to make a true jewel out of your void Ottoman 'empire'...Given that I have been known to lash out -- when provoked with personal attacks -- I claim no purity in getting nasty. But in this and other discussions about the region, what is considered a ‘provocation’ seems to be making certain claims with which one does not agree.

I do not mean to be pedantic, but observing such exchanges illustrates why it is understandable that some outsiders may wish to wash their hands of this region altogether and simply stand back and watch you savage each other while we shake our heads – and be glad we’re not involved.

I intend to continue learning about this and would entreat each of you to try to cut back upon the vinegar so that the rest of us can benefit – and perhaps some solutions be found. The Albanian issue doesn’t seem so impossible, but to cancel a high-level diplomatic exchange over a protest seems to be a bit of an over-reaction.

If American leaders canceled meetings even if violent protests were ongoing, we would be howled at as sissies.

[achilles]

I intend to continue learning about this and would entreat each of you to try to cut back upon the vinegar so that the rest of us can benefit – and perhaps some solutions be found. The Albanian issue doesn’t seem so impossible, but to cancel a high-level diplomatic exchange over a protest seems to be a bit of an over-reaction.

The necessary prerequisite to 'cut back upon the vinegar' is for certain users to contain their persistent habbit of jumping into threads in order to post provocative 'sources' and 'comments' about 'Macedonia', 'Greek attrocities' and display at the same time an unspeakable denial, bias and lack of any decent self-criticism. We have even seen genocides being baptized as 'legitimate stuggles for self-existence'. This leaves me no space for constructive talk, at least with certain cocroach-like individuals...

To the point: the cancelation of the specific visit was not an over-reaction. In effect, we couldnt care less about a bunch of Albanocams waving signs, yet we do care about sending a solid message to the newly elected Albanian government: that Greece, as of now, has zero tolerance towards the elevation of, indeed, non existent issues. The Cams used to live in the perfecture of Thesprotia and were big landowners. Their cooperation with the Turks (playing the role of Trojan horse) as well as with the Nazis, forced Greece to expel them back to where they belong...Albania. Their dreams of taking back 'their' lands and 'their' property on Greek soil will remain as already described...dreams.

Plus, the cancelation in scope also took place in order to serve purposes of 'domestic consumption'. Greeks begin to realize that their governments do not really have an independent voice in terms of foreign policy so actions like this one might help boosting our hurt moral a little bit.;)

Note also that just today the Greek PM, cancelled his scheduled visit to Ankara due to the continuously provocative behaviour of Turkey, which usually chooses to violate the Greek FIR more than 50 times per day right before bilateral contacts take place. In the streets, this is called 'bullying'.


If American leaders canceled meetings even if violent protests were ongoing, we would be howled at as sissies.

Thats because you are the top dog, unlike Greece.

[walford]

If American leaders canceled meetings even if violent protests were ongoing, we would be howled at as sissies.Thats because you are the top dog, unlike Greece.For problems to be resolved peacefully, consistent, fair standards are required -- including discussion over an issue that you'd just as soon see dead and buried.

I'm sure when firefighter (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=7262) discovers this thread, all will be straightened out.

[achilles]

I am sure the bollock shocker is somewhere near, lurking like a stoat :lol:

Sadly, when he shows up, he aint gonna be the same good old FFFTM we all used to know and appreciate...

Isnt that so you sons of the bitch pissing bastard morons, whose mama's have were been penetrated by hunderds of malnutritioned Albanian goats?:bash:

[Kontra1]

Interesting...two Brits suspected to be killed by Greek Cypriots. Plus, info on unjustified killings committed by GC's against TC civilians...we have been through that before...and the point is?

I don't think you've used the link I provided..it's not the Brits',it's the former Finnish peace keeper's observations that counts.

Read it again. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/MACEY/macey.html


The Brits should keep their mouths shut when the discussion comes to Cyprus, and in any case your link does not change the fact that you were pretty happy you found the right pretext to blatantly invade the island, ethnically cleanse its Northern part, and sustain your very own people in misery and completely detached from the island's European route ever since 1974. Not to mention all the looting, destroying and abuse on the archaelogical heritage of the turf you still occupy. I still dont get under which reasonable criteria 18% of the island's populace occupies almost 40% of the land.

Well... the truth contridicts with your bs you've been spreading around for the last 30 some yerars...doesn't it ;)

The Greeks started to butchering the Turks in '63,we reacted in '74...that doesn't sound like exactly "taking an advantage of the situation" does it?


completely detached from the island's European route ever since 1974.

Well..it stopped the butchering of the Turks on the island..didn't it? Something NATO choosed to do in the Balkans decades later and it worked...oh wait..you don't approve that either..do you? massacares should've went on.


Kontra1

[Kontra1]

The necessary prerequisite to 'cut back upon the vinegar' is for certain users to contain their persistent habbit of jumping into threads in order to post provocative 'sources' and 'comments' about 'Macedonia', 'Greek attrocities' and display at the same time an unspeakable denial, bias and lack of any decent self-criticism. We have even seen genocides being baptized as 'legitimate stuggles for self-existence'. This leaves me no space for constructive talk, at least with certain cocroach-like individuals...

It's pretty abvious that you get irritated by anyone who opposes your stories and start calling them names( I can see in other threads also). I think it's your self denial attitude that should be questioned here.

...and Macedonia is officially recognized by it's constitutional name by Turkey...so ther IS absolutelly nothing wrong calling her that by me.


To the point: the cancelation of the specific visit was not an over-reaction. In effect, we couldnt care less about a bunch of Albanocams waving signs, yet we do care about sending a solid message to the newly elected Albanian government: that Greece, as of now, has zero tolerance towards the elevation of, indeed, non existent issues. The Cams used to live in the perfecture of Thesprotia and were big landowners. Their cooperation with the Turks (playing the role of Trojan horse) as well as with the Nazis, forced Greece to expel them back to where they belong...Albania. Their dreams of taking back 'their' lands and 'their' property on Greek soil will remain as already described...dreams.

Plus, the cancelation in scope also took place in order to serve purposes of 'domestic consumption'. Greeks begin to realize that their governments do not really have an independent voice in terms of foreign policy so actions like this one might help boosting our hurt moral a little bit.;)


Note also that just today the Greek PM, cancelled his scheduled visit to Ankara due to the continuously provocative behaviour of Turkey, which usually chooses to violate the Greek FIR more than 50 times per day right before bilateral contacts take place. In the streets, this is called 'bullying'.

Another example of your bs you've been spreading around for years now, but ppl doesn't know your closest island is ONLY 7 miles away from the Turkish mainland and you want to extend the int'l FIR fom 6 to 12 miles...why don't you tell ppl that too ;)

Of course we won't let you..are you so goddamn naive to expect we will?

Kontra1

[walford]

So I am told that the complexity of the Balkans is too vast for one thread, but we cannot resist injecting the marginally relevant Cyprus issue into the discussion of the discord between the Greeks and Albanians.

Getting back to that, upon reflection it does seem very difficult. It is difficult to find any objective historical accounts that lead to the present-day situation. This Hepirus/Çameria dispute seems to have deeper roots, but came to a head when the Turks lost control of the area during WWI. Albanians complain that they had lived in this area for some time and it was ‘annexed’ by Greece.

My guess is that these Albanians likely inhabited the area consequent to earlier Ottoman expansion, given that many are Muslim. Insofar as their support for the NAZIs, this seems murky. The Turks officially were neutral, but there were stories of collaboration and resistance. Likely it was the same for the Albanians as well.

There are several questions, then. Was every Albanian man woman and child guilty of collaborating with the NAZIs? That’s doubtful. However, another question is, were the Çams who are agitating to have their property returned even alive when this happened? In other words, is this another version of the Palestinians ‘right of return’ in which anyone related to those who voluntarily left or expelled entitled to land that has been occupied and developed by others for more than 2 generations?

Below are examples of the widely divergent views I found on the subject. They are extremely passionate and I take them with a grain of salt, but was able to form a synthesis of what likely happened from these sources.

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/Turks-save-Jews.htm
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0406d&L=albanews&D=0&P=5017
http://www.englishforums.com/English/TakeALookAtCameria/bwzk/Post.htm
http://www.almiyachts.com/Towns/ionian_sea/ipirus/hepirus.html
http://www.blythe.org/peru-pcp/newflag/nf0402/albania.htm
http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks26/28October/28October.html

[achilles]

I don't think you've used the link I provided..it's not the Brits',it's the former Finnish peace keeper's observations that counts.

The website is British from top to bottom and that's what i was referrring to. I am sure that more websites of the like will pop up like mushrooms, the more Cyprus opposes the US/UK devised Annan plan that is specifically tailored to serve the interests of the TCs/UK/US.


Well... the truth contridicts with your bs you've been spreading around for the last 30 some yerars...doesn't it ;)

The truth? YOUR truth? :lol: The truth is that you illegally invaded a Greek-Cypriot island, endowed with a significant Turkish CYpriot community, kicked GCs out of their homes and ethnically cleansed the Northern part. Eventually you handed over 40% of the island to 18% of the people, who you also maintain in misery due to your incompetence in taking economic advantage of the BEST part of the island. The same is the case with Imvros and Tenedos. You were saing about bull****?


The Greeks started to butchering the Turks in '63,we reacted in '74...that doesn't sound like exactly "taking an advantage of the situation" does it?

So the time lag makes it a humanitarian intervetion and not a blatant invasion? Is this how stupid you can be?
You invaded when it suited you....it is PRECISELY because of the time lag that you were waiting for the right moment to fullfill your imperialist dreams and grab a chunk of Cyprus. If it were a rescue operation you would invade in '63-64' or 65'. How come benevolent Turkey standed a 10 year continuous mayhem? Was it because you are so much in fond of the diplomatic route of resolving disputes? :lol:


Well..it stopped the butchering of the Turks on the island..didn't it? Something NATO choosed to do in the Balkans decades later and it worked...oh wait..you don't approve that either..do you? massacares should've went on.

It stopped the butchering? No the extremist elements of EOKA B could have been stopped through other ways. BUt that did not suit your expansionist plans. Yoo LOVED the fact that some GC attacked civilians. You were longing for an excuse.

Your invasion simply oppressed, and still does, both TCs and GCs and keeps almost half of the island 50 years back. Geez, man, TCs cross the borders in order to work. Thanks to the fact that you turned a land full of resources into a military ****hole and nothing more. Carcinogenic presence once more.

Tell us what you made out of Imvros and Tenedos (apart from confiscating and looting Greek property), two beautiful Aegean islands that have nothing to be jealous of Mykonos, Paros and Naksos in terms of natural beauty. Last time i checked there were a couple of goats eating grass there. What is wrong with you guys?;)


In any case, i think walford is right and we should stick to the Greek-Albanian theme of this thread. You can always start a new thread on Cyprus and show us what a bunch of monsters the Greeks are once more...

[achilles]

Another example of your bs you've been spreading around for years now, but ppl doesn't know your closest island is ONLY 7 miles away from the Turkish mainland and you want to extend the int'l FIR fom 6 to 12 miles...why don't you tell ppl that too ;)

Of course we won't let you..are you so goddamn naive to expect we will?

Kontra1

Are you so god damn stupid to speak about 6 and / 12 miles, when your planes fly over the middle of the Aegean?? What does your military oligarchy
tell you on that one, kardas? That you are intercepting Greek Mirage-2000s and you pilots get carried away a little bit? ;)


I have told you before, that there can be exceptions for the islands that are very close to your coastline, and we agreed.

None of what you say change the fact that you are still provoking, bullying and trying to show 'who is the boss' in the area, in violation of every international rule that dictates borders, FIR and limits of national waters.

Things will change though...you want to become 'European';)

[Shqiptari]

Perhaps all of you might consider citing references and discussing them rather than embarassing yourselves with the personal attacks. Some of you might consider the possibility that you have been raised w/a considerable amount of biased education/news that may require supplemental info and reconsideration.


You see that is impossible!! The universe ends at our borders...each of our borders...and everything we read in our history classes comes down directly from God. Thats the truth and that is it...and if you disgaree...we WILL kill you...

Of course I'm joking...and I agree 100% with you. Thats what I want to do...have an OBJECTIVE discussion for once...but Iv found out over and over that that is absolutely impossible. There's not even the slightest possibility in anyone's mind that they may be wrong...BUT...I will try to provide you with some info...to the best of my abilities...


Getting back to that, upon reflection it does seem very difficult. It is difficult to find any objective historical accounts that lead to the present-day situation. This Hepirus/Çameria dispute seems to have deeper roots, but came to a head when the Turks lost control of the area during WWI. Albanians complain that they had lived in this area for some time and it was ‘annexed’ by Greece.

My guess is that these Albanians likely inhabited the area consequent to earlier Ottoman expansion, given that many are Muslim



Epirus and Cameria are two different issues and two different regions. Cameria is a part of Epirus. Epirus in general is a geographical region which stretches from Southern Albania all the way to Arta in today's Greece.

The Greeks claim Epirus mainly...or rather only...on a historical claim to an ancient people who lived there...the Epiriots. The Epiriots were made up of several tribes, like the Molossi and Chaoni. This was in ancient antiquity. The Greeks claim the Epiriots were a "Greek" people...and therefore since in ancient times this area was inhabited by Greeks...it is therefore Greek today as well. MANY others...including Albanians and many historians...claim the Epiriots were not Greeks but Illyrians...ie the predecesors of the Albanians.

In my opinion...they were not Greek at all but Illyrians...but the Greeks did establish colonies on the coast of the Epiriots land...as the Greeks established colonies all over the Mediterranean...and the fact that the Epiriots lacking an alphabet of their own (like the Illyrians(, used the Greek alphabet to write their language. This causes SOME historians to think they were Greeks becasue they wrote in such an alphabet and had a similar style of architecture and such...but thats like saying Vietnamese are French becasue they write in a Latin alphabet and buld in western-style architecture. The fact of the matter is Greek culture and written language penetrated many of the areas of the Medtierranean...but that didn't mean these people were Greeks. In fact the Greek colonies were expelled from Epirus by the year 400 BC or so.

Now...all that is ancient history. What is know is that by the Middle Ages Epirus was considered universally as part of Albania. The official title of Scenderbe...the guy on my avatar...was King of Epirus. He himself claimed direct descendence from Pirro of Epir. Either way little is known about the period before the Middle Ages and as to what the epople who lived there were...no one in those times cared to classify people on those basis. But by the early middle ages this area was inhabited by Albanians...and this was WAY before the Ottomans ever appeared. By the 1300s there was also a huge wave of Albanian migration coming down from the North from the areas where the Serbs were advancing (Kosova and many other areas whcih today are Serbian). These people were invited by the Byzantines to come and settle in wat they called largly uninhabited lands in the Peloponesus and so forth....to the point that Albanians made up a huge chunk of the total population of the entire area we call Greece today...in the 1300s this is. These 1300 migrants however settled in the Peoloponesus and many of the Aegean islands.

Most of these people are not Muslims at all...and being Muslim has nothing to do with when these people came or not. Conversion to Islam didn't really start in large numbers until the 1700s anyway. In Southern Albania it is about half and half...the Cams themselves were half and half...and most of the Albanians in the Peloponesus and other areas of Greece were Christians. Now...the Albanians in the Peloponesus and other areas of Greece...called Arvanites...sided with the Greeks during their war of independence and provided the Greeks with their best and most famous fighters. The traditional "Greek" costume worn by the Greek honor guards...the fustanella and everything...is actually the costume of the Arvanites...which was adopted by the Greeks following the war as a sign of respect for these fighters. By that time Albanians made up about 30% of the total population of the land which then was Greece. The original idea before the war...was the creation of a state where 50% of the deputies in parliament would be Albanian and 50% Greek. Those ideas quickly ended after the war...and over the years the Albanian identity of the Arvanites was fought and eliminated...mainly due to the use of the Greek Orthodox Church. It did take more than 2 centuries though to completely estinguish the Arvanites in Greece as a separate people...and even today there is still a trickle of people who still speak Arvanitika (an archaic dialect of Albanian). I'v been told by people who have been to Greece and have gone to some villages in these areas...you still find many old people will reply to you in Albanian if you speak to them in Albanian.

Now...besides these Arvanites...who were assimilated "peacefully" from the 1800s on...and by the time of WW1 they had mostly dissapeared (though there was an incident when Greece tried to land Marines near Vlora...the Marines were Arvanitas...and they deserted and refused to fight their Albanian brothers). There were also several hundred thousand Muslim Albanians left over throughout Greece. In 1912 Greece invaded part of the area they call "Epirus"...which back then was part of the Villayet of Janina. Janina was the biggest city in what was then the 4 villayets of Albania. In the 1800s it was ruled by a man named Ali Pasha Tepelena...an Albanian...who was called in the west "The Muslim Bonapart" Now according to the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1901...the 4 Villayets of Albania contained about 100,000 people of Greek ethnicity. This means they did comprise a substantial minority in the Villayet of Janina...but a small minority nonetheless. The Greeks in that time were concentrated mainly aroud the city of Janina...around the city of Gjirokastra...and a small sprinkle along the Ionian coast in some remote vilages. The reason for this demographic spread was that Ali Pasha Tepelena had essencially declared his own independent state out of the Villayet of Janina. He was in the bad habit of fighting against many of the local Albanian lords as well...especially the Suliots...so he couldn't trust his own Albanians to protect him. So he invited Greek farmers to come and settle around his strongholds in order to defend him better. Yanina and Gjirokastra were his two main centers...this is why the Greek minority was concentrated around these areas. The Greeks on the Ionian Coast were fishermen from Corfu who saild on the other side and decided to settle sometime in the 1800s...unrelated to this.

The res of this area was inhabited mostly by Albanians. In 1912-1914 the Greek invaded this area. Greek claims were to all of Southern Albania. The census of the Yanina Villayet I have read gives the number of Albanians in the Villayet as around 500,000...split almost evenly between Muslims and Christians...plus slightly less than 100,000 Greeks...and several tens of thousands of Vlachs and Jews. The Greeks claimed this entire area as their own. By 1914 they had invaded this entire area...creating about 300,000 refugees who were expelled from their lands...most of them permanently becasue their lands would soon fall in the new Greek state. They were eventually forced out of what is today Southern Albania...but the bulk of the Yanina Villayet was permanently lost. Most of the Albanians living there were expelled...never to return. Most of these keep in mind were Christian Albanian.

A large number of the remianing Muslim Albanians were expelled to Turkey in the 1920s and 30s as part of their population exchange. The Greeks considered everyone who was Muslim as a "Turk"...and therefore send many thousands of Albanians to Turkey.

The Cams in the area of Cameria...were the only Albanians who seemd to have been spared. They were under harsh treatment and managment with many fo their rights denied and so forth. They were not "rich landowners" as some Greeks describe them as. They were meager peasants. They weren't all Muslims either...but divided as most Albanians in the South almost half-half. The real persecution started in 1940 prior to the Italian war when 4,000 Albanian men from Cameria were taken by the Greeks to concentration camps in some Aegean islands. When the Italian invasion came...the Camerian Albanians declared their loyalty to Greece and asked to be organized and armed to fight the Italians. The Greek government refused. Eventually Greece was invaded by the Germans. The region of Cameria was given to Albania...then an Italian puppet state. As they dd in every country they invaded...INCLUDING GREECE...the Axis established a puppet regime complete with a pupet administration and a puppet police. The same happened in Cameria of course. This was the extent of the "collaboration" the Camerians had with the Germans or Italians...essencially the SAME level of collaboration that the Greekes themselves had. There were no attrocities or massacres or crimes against Greeks or anything of the sort that Greeks claim. Cameria was a region inahbited 97% by Albanians prior to 1944...there were no Greeks there to begin with for anyone to hassle with.

Of course EVERY country and people had collaborators. So its ridiculous to say Camerians collaborated...when they did no more than Greeks themselves did. Instead...Camerians were the first to organize resistance movements to the Germans. Some of the first Albanian partizan units to be formed were formed in Cameria. Later on when the Greek communists started operating in the area...Cams were organized in Partizan units of that movement. The agreement between the Greek Communists and the Greek Monarchsts was that Greece was to be divided into zones for each of these two groups. Cameria went to the Greek Communists. In 1944 however Napoleon Zerva broke that agreement and attacked Cameria. The Albanian units in the Greek partizans were the only defending units in the area. They fought back and asked for assistance from the Greek Communists. That assistance came to late. Zerva's forces massacred several thousand civilians in the area, expelled several tens of thousands, caused wide-spread destruction and loss of property and put in jails thousands of Albanians who resisted them. The Greek Communists finally managed to kick Zervas out of Cameria. They released the Albanians held in jails and allowed many Albanians to return to their homes. However the Greek communists eventually lost the power and in 1945 Zervas came back once more to complete his actions.

The excuse used of course was that the Cams had committed crimes against the Greek state becasue they had collaborated with the Germans by joining Albania and "massacring" Greeks. Of course that is ridiculous...becasue the union between Albania and Cameria wasn't in the hands of Cams and no one asked Cams but was a political decision of Hitler and Mussolini...And secodnly there were no massacres of anyone in the area or anywhere else in Albania. If Albanains wanted to expell Greeks...we would have started with the Greeks in Himara and around Gjirokastra...and yet the same number of Greeks there ebfore the war were after the war. We touched no one. And of course the charges of collaboration are ridiculous becasue the Cams were well known to have been collaborators only with the Greek communist Partizans.

However...the Greek communists were weakened and therefore this was a good opportunity to get rid of the last remaining Albanian presence in the lands occupied since 1912...and do it at a time when no one was looking or caring. The same applied to other minorities throughout Greece who suffered the same fate.

The fact that there were massacres and deportations carried out is not the issue here. This is internationally recognized. Even America send a substantial ammount of money for the time to help out the Cam refugees in Albania.

The modern state of Greece wasn't fromed until 1912...and it was formed when Greece expanded into lands which were mostly inhabited by non-Greeks. The aera of "Epirus" was inhabited mostly by Albanians...and by Slavs in what is today "Greek Macedonia"...and Bulgars further east. These were lands which with the exception of a POSSIBLE ancient Hellenic presence in the area...had no other conncetion to "Greece" or "Greeks".

Of course Greeks of today have a very hard time accepting the fact that they themselves may have nothing to do with the ancient Hellens too. They have a hard time accepting that the 30% Albanians that lived in Greece back in the 1800s...and were later assimilated...are still there ;) They didn't dissapear...YOU may be one of them too! And large number of Slavs, Bulgars, Turks and so forth that have gone in and out of that area over the cnturies, settled it, ruled it, invaded it...have mized and intermixed with the population many time...creating a mixtrue of ethnicities. The 1821 census of Athens showed the population of Athens at the time was 40% Turks, 20% Albanians, 15% Greeks and the rest were Jews and Vlachs. A simple drive around Greece and you'll see just about every Balkanic feature, skin tone and shapes you'll ever see. Just a simple look at modern Greek culture, music, dresses and so forth...and you'll see a mixture of every Balkanic and Turkish culture, dress, music, food and so forth. Is this coincidental?? What is the meaning of this?? Greece was the one area where all these people met...Albanians up to Arta...followed by migratiosn in the 1300s from Kosova all the way to the Peoloponesus...Slavic invasions thrghout the Middle Ages...Bulgarian invasions...Turkish invasion and settlemants for 500 years...Byzantines inviting all sorts of people to come and settle. What do you think is the end-result of all this??? How do you think today's modern greek culture came about looking like a carbon-copy paper of Albanian/Turkish/Slavic culture?? These are all very unpleasnt things for Greeks to think about and to look at...becasue it challanges their ideal that they are descendents of the ancient Hellenics and therefore can claim all these lands as their own. But are they??? Are they more "Hellenic" than the Slavic Macedonians who today call themselves Macedonians??? I don't think so...

Anyway...to get back to the Cams and the issue with Albania. The Cams eventually settled in Albania an become Albanian citizens and today are about 200,000 strong. What they want...is compensation of the property and ladn they lost...either to give them back the land...or to pay compensation for the damges. Greece of course doesn't want to face its past...becasue that is one nasty past for all of Greece's neighbours as well...so talking about the Cams just opens up a Pandora's box for Greece...

But one day this issue will have to be addressed...it won't be soon but one day they will have to address it.

[gbos]

There is such an enormous amount of BS in your response Shqiptari that I don’t even consider replying to it. BTW do you use the ‘iliria’ alias in some other forums? You and him post almost the same tale stories.

[achilles]

Of course I'm joking...

Stop joking cause our stomach hurts from all that spastic laughing :lol:



Epirus and Cameria are two different issues and two different regions. Cameria is a part of Epirus. Epirus in general is a geographical region which stretches from Southern Albania all the way to Arta in today's Greece.

How can Cameria be part of Epirus, and yet the two are two different areas? You are all messed up my friend...you need some professional help.


The Epiriots were made up of several tribes, like the Molossi and Chaoni. This was in ancient antiquity. The Greeks claim the Epiriots were a "Greek" people...and therefore since in ancient times this area was inhabited by Greeks...it is therefore Greek today as well.

Mollosoi...a purely Doric tribe. You know what a Doric tribe is dont you? Take a look at who were the Mollosians just to get you started with:
The Greek name Epirus signifies "mainland" or "continent", and was originally applied to the whole coast south to the Corinthian Gulf. Epirus was settled by Illyrians early in the second millennium BC and parts of it were much later colonized by the ancient Greeks.


Epirus was ruled from the 6th century by a dynasty, the Molossians, who claimed to be descended from Neoptolemus, son of Achilles. The main importance of Epirus to the Greek cities (polis) was that it was the location of the shrine and the oracle at Dodona, second in importance only to the oracle at Delphi. Arybbas was a respected figure in the ancient world, and his niece, Olympias, married Philip II of Macedon and was the mother of Alexander the Great.

On the death of Arybbas, Alexander succeeded the throne and the title King of Epirus. Aeacides, who succeeded Alexander, espoused the cause of Olympias against Cassander, but was dethroned in 313 BC. His son Pyrrhus came to throne in 295 BC, and for six years fought against the Romans in southern Italy and Sicily. His campaigns gave Epirus a new, but brief, importance.

In the third century BC Epirus remained a substantial power, and the Epirotes attempted to gain control of Macedonia, but in the 2nd century they blundered into war against the Romans, and in 168 BC the Romans pillaged the country and effectively ended its independence. In 146 BC it became part of the province of Roman Macedonia, receiving the name Epirus Vetus, to distinguish it from Epirus Nova to the east. This conquest led to the distruction of 70 cities and villages and to the enslavement of 150 000 Epirotes.

EVERYTHING is Hellenic about the ancient Epirotic tribes poor man...but you carefully avoided in commenting on this (oh that was too many years ago huh?:lol:)

The Molossians were a Greek tribe of ancient Epirus.

They claimed to be descendents of Molossus, one of the three sons of Neoptolemus, son of Achilles and Hector's wife Andromache. According to Greek mythology, following the sack of Troy, Neoptolemus and his armies settled in Epirus where they joined the local Dorian Greek population and displaced the barbarian tribes to the North.

Molossus inherited the kingdom of Epirus after the death of Helenus, son of Priam and Hecuba of Troy, who had married his erstwhile sister-in-law Andromache after Neoptolemus' death.

Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great, was a Molossian princess.

The most famous member of the Molossian dynasty was Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander.

The Molossians were also known for their vicious hounds which were used by shepherds to guard their flocks.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians"


MANY others...including Albanians and many historians...claim the Epiriots were not Greeks but Illyrians...ie the predecesors of the Albanians.

Many??? Albanians and others? Others who? Tell me please i am dying to know...


In my opinion...they were not Greek at all but Illyrians...

Your opinion is void of any substance cause it totally unjustified and takes way too many things for grandit. Even if they were Illyrians (which is not the case), who guarantees you that today's Albanians are descendants of the barbaric tribe of Illyria?
Ethnic origin of modern Albanians...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians




[quote]Now...all that is ancient history. What is know is that by the Middle Ages Epirus was considered universally as part of Albania.

Universally? Oh gosh:lol: :lol: From east to west and from north to south...your are being so specific you are killing me


The official title of Scenderbe...the guy on my avatar...was King of Epirus. He himself claimed direct descendence from Pirro of Epir.

Oh did he? And i claim to be Napoleon Bonaparte...do you believe me?

Here is a hint on who Pyrros was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

If you dont like wikipedia, an independent and relatively objective source, i can bombard you with many others but i would appreciate it if you didnt waste TOO much of my time.

So Pyrros the Mollosian king...was an Albanian or Illyrian? Only the Turks can surpass you in distorting history...



Either way little is known about the period before the Middle Ages and as to what the epople who lived there were...no one in those times cared to classify people on those basis. But by the early middle ages this area was inhabited by Albanians...and this was WAY before the Ottomans ever appeared. By the 1300s there was also a huge wave of Albanian migration coming down from the North from the areas where the Serbs were advancing (Kosova and many other areas whcih today are Serbian). These people were invited by the Byzantines to come and settle in wat they called largly uninhabited lands in the Peloponesus and so forth....to the point that Albanians made up a huge chunk of the total population of the entire area we call Greece today...in the 1300s this is. These 1300 migrants however settled in the Peoloponesus and many of the Aegean islands.

Oh ****...the Albanian tsunami...:lol: That many Albanians immigrated is true but your description is a fairy tale, way out of proportion. Check again what you ve been told.


...sided with the Greeks during their war of independence and provided the Greeks with their best and most famous fighters. The traditional "Greek" costume worn by the Greek honor guards...the fustanella and everything...is actually the costume of the Arvanites...which was adopted by the Greeks following the war as a sign of respect for these fighters.

It is true that the Arvanites fought bravely with us during the war of Independence. Yet, i am sorry to dissappoint you that foustanela comes from our ancient antiquity. Please recheck what you ve been told once more.


By that time Albanians made up about 30% of the total population of the land which then was Greece. The original idea before the war...was the creation of a state where 50% of the deputies in parliament would be Albanian and 50% Greek. Those ideas quickly ended after the war...and over the years the Albanian identity of the Arvanites was fought and eliminated...mainly due to the use of the Greek Orthodox Church. It did take more than 2 centuries though to completely estinguish the Arvanites in Greece as a separate people...and even today there is still a trickle of people who still speak Arvanitika (an archaic dialect of Albanian). I'v been told by people who have been to Greece and have gone to some villages in these areas...you still find many old people will reply to you in Albanian if you speak to them in Albanian.

30% is a percentage stemming from that bad albanian weed you are on. Can you back this up? Or you will just keep flooding our thread with hallucinating crap?


yet, it is true that there are still some people who speak 'Arvanitika' in remote places of Northern Greece. Most of them, identify themselves as Greeks and even if they dont, they are not characterized by your hatred and bias against Greece.


Now...besides these Arvanites...who were assimilated "peacefully" from the 1800s on...

They have been peacefully assimilated indeed...ask my Arvanites friends...one of my best friends surname is 'Arvanitakis' and he feels more Greek than i do :lol: WE dont care about genes, my poor man...we care more about mentalities and a common vision of a nation state.

[achilles]

A large number of the remianing Muslim Albanians were expelled to Turkey in the 1920s and 30s as part of their population exchange. The Greeks considered everyone who was Muslim as a "Turk"...and therefore send many thousands of Albanians to Turkey.

Yep, as the result of the Ottoman recruit of those who became known as 'Turkalbanians', i.e. Muslims of ambiguous origin who felt great when slaughtering Greeks during our war of independence.



Of course EVERY country and people had collaborators. So its ridiculous to say Camerians collaborated...when they did no more than Greeks themselves did.

I advise you to be more careful and less of a ****head when linking Greece with Nazis...;)



Instead...Camerians were the first to organize resistance movements to the Germans.

No, i think Camerians launched the world civilization and have been nurishing it ever since...do we have a deal? :lol:


I circumvent many parts of your posts cause i am really bored of replying to your ingorance...its an insult to my average intelligence so please bear with my cherry picking...

Of course Greeks of today have a very hard time accepting the fact that they themselves may have nothing to do with the ancient Hellens too.

But you dont get it...we dont care about matching our current DNA with that of our ancient ancestors. We admire their heritage, study their philosophy and, hopefully, we will be able one day to stand up to their glory. Now if there is Arvanite, Turkish, Slavic blood running side by side with our Hellenic one, it doesnt matter...


Besides, can you show me ONE race that hasnt undergone serious anthropological change after thousands of years of ethnic mixture, military occupation and population exchange?

Do you feel like Pyrros' grandson or something? :lol:



Please mate...either consolidate your claims, which will not happen in a thousand years from now, or stop wasting badnwidth.

Thank you very much for your attention....Pyrro! :lol: :lol:

[achilles]

To anyone interested, more on Pyrrhus and his ancient Hellenic Kingdom of Epirus:

PYRRHUS
318 - 272 BC
Greek King of Epirus
Pyrrhus was king of the Hellenistic kingdom of Epirus whose costly military successes against Macedonia and Rome gave rise to the phrase' Pyrrhic victory'.

http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/people_n2/ppersons2_n2/pyrrhus.html

This is from Plutarch:

Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/pyrrhus.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Pyrrhus*.html

Pyrrhus was born in 319/318 as the son of Aeacides and a Greek lady from Thessaly named Phthia
http://www.livius.org/ps-pz/pyrrhus/pyrrhus01.html

Looking at the ancient coins of the region, it, again, smells like Hellenism:
http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/greece.html

The Epirotes and Macedonians of the time were the mountainous Dorians, who, most likely, descended to the Greek peninsula at around 11 century B.C. Perhaps the Thracians were a distinct tribe, who were vastly hellenized in the beggining and eventualy lost their intitial identity, after the Slavic penetration in the region.

This is an excerpt related to the genealogy of the Mollosians, the Hellenic Dorian tribe that comprised most of the ancient Epirus:

(1) The son of Achilles and Deïdamia. He was brought up by his grandfather Lycomedes in Scyros. After Achilles' death, however, he was led by Odysseus to Troy, since, according to the prophecy of Helenus, that town could be taken only by a descendant of Aeacus. Here, like his father, he distinguished himself above all by a courage which none could withstand. He slew Eurypylus, son of Telephus, and was one of the heroes in the wooden horse, where he alone remained undaunted. Later legend depicts him as fierce and cruel: at the taking of Troy he killed the aged Priam at the altar of Zeus, hurled Hector's son, Astyanax, down from the walls, and offered up Polyxena upon his father's tomb. In Homer he arrives safely with much booty at Phthia, his father's home, and weds Menelaüs's daughter Hermioné, who was promised him during the siege of Troy ( Od.iv. 5). Later legend represents him as accompanied by Andromaché, Hector's wife, who is allotted him as a part of his booty, and Helenus, and then, on the strength of a prophecy of Helenus, as going to Epirus and settling there. It was to a son of his by Lanassa, granddaughter of Heracles, that the later kings of Epirus traced back their descent, and accordingly styled themselves Aeacidae; while from his son by Andromaché, Molossus, the district of Molossia was said to derive its name (Pausan. i. 11). He afterwards went to Phthia, to reinstate his grandfather Peleus in his kingdom whence he had been expelled by Acastus and wedded Hermioné. He soon, however, met his death at Delphi, whither, according to one story, he had gone with dedicatory offerings, or, according to another, to plunder the temple of Apollo in revenge for his father's death. The accounts of his death vary, some attributing it to Orestes, the earlier lover of Hermioné; others to the Delphians, at the instance of the Pythian priestess; others again to a quarrel about the meat-offerings. The scene of his death was the altar, a coincidence which was regarded as a judgment for his murder of Priam. His tomb was within the precincts of the Delphic temple, and in later times he was worshipped as a hero with annual sacrifices by the Delphians, as he was said to have vouchsafed valuable assistance against the Gauls when they threatened the sacred spot (B.C. 279) (Pausan. x. 23)."
^^^Taken by a personal source. It clearly suggests the Hellenic descent of the Mollosians. No doubt, part of the broader region of 'Epirus' was inhabited by mixed Illyrian tribes. Yet, noone guarantees that modern Albanians are descendants of the ancient barbaric tribe of the Illyrians. There are about 10 theories related to the ethnic origins of modern Albanians, one of which claims that they MIGHT be descendants of the Illyrians.

[achilles]

There are several questions, then. Was every Albanian man woman and child guilty of collaborating with the NAZIs? That’s doubtful. However, another question is, were the Çams who are agitating to have their property returned even alive when this happened? In other words, is this another version of the Palestinians ‘right of return’ in which anyone related to those who voluntarily left or expelled entitled to land that has been occupied and developed by others for more than 2 generations

Of course not all Cams were guilty of collaborating with the Nazis. Can we blame ALL Germans of the WWII period for the Jewish holocaust?


I am not sure the case of the Cams can be put in parallel with the Palestinians 'right of return' (quote or not). All i can say with certainty is that the Cams currently consist of a very convenient Trojan horse for Albania to raise issues against Greece, when this seems to be convenient.

The Cams lived in Greece, had large plots of land, sided with the wrong side and were eventually expelled back to their own country. It was all part of a much needed historical process: the perpetuation of 'Hellenism' and the relatively new 'Greek state' whose solidarity, autonomy and smooth functioning was largely jeopardized by hostile elements, like the Cams. At least some of them.

The Arvanites (most serious scholars say that they are largely of Hellenic descent), on the other hand, have been assimilated within the Greek society. This has to do with the fact that they helped Greece in her struggle to get rid of the Ottoman cancer, their religious parity and their overall moderate stance as an ethnic minority, assuming of course that they can be considered of non-Hellenic descent. The thing is, that most Arvanites hate being called 'Albanians', most likely because this is historically inaccurate, pretty much like every Albanian propagandistic claim.

[walford]

I'm certainly taking all of this info bearing in mind that perspective colors description. The trading of insults I suppose, is to be taken as 'feature' of a discussion invovling this region. Very informative, much appreciated.

[achilles]

I'm certainly taking all of this info bearing in mind that perspective colors description. The trading of insults I suppose, is to be taken as 'feature' of a discussion invovling this region. Very informative, much appreciated.




No it does not have to be a feature walford. I recall very nice discussions with Turks, Albanians, Skopans or you name it. The trading of insults becomes a feature when the side who is in great need of appropriating someone else's history...starts doing so.

Think about it...is it possible that Greece needs to steal someone else's past? ;)

[kenshiroIT]

He was supposed to meet his Albanian counterpart but a group of

demonstrators stormed the area outside the meeting site shouting for

'Chameria' as they call the Greek Hepirus region. They demand return of their

houses and their properties which were confiscated after WW2 becouse of

their collaboration with Germany and Italy. Many were court martialed by

military tribunals for war crimes against Greek population in Hepirus.


DEMARCHE TO ALBANIA ON THE CANCELLATION OF THE MEETING OF THE PRESIDENTS OF GREECE AND ALBANIA
Athens, 1 November 2005 (17:17 UTC+2)




hmm...every nation in the world has extremist. I think is a exageration....

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

When a president of one Country (Greece) meet with a president of another country (Albania) and
1)when the albanian Government says it can NOT QUARANTEE THE SAFETY OF THE GREEK PRESIDENT.
2) The Greek President ask from Albanian side to not allow the protesters get near him and THE ALBANIAN SIDE SAYS IT WILL NOT DO THAT BECAUSE "WE ARE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY"
3) When these protesters CLAIM ABOUT GREEK SOIL (THESPROTIA- EPIRUS) MUST BECOME ALBANIAN AND CHANGE OF BORDERS
4) When these protesters WAS NAZI ALLIES AND COMMITED WAR CRIMES

Please tell me who can blame this President (Greek president Mr. Papoulias) canceling the meeting!
Is this meeting so important that he must ignore
1)His Safety
2)Albanian refusal to cooperate with Greek side
3)Unacceptable claims about CHANGE OF BORDERS from NAZI Supporters

What will George Bush or any other President will do in Papoulias position?

[Vorian]

Shqiptari, you do know that your national hero Skederbei's real name was Georgios Kastriotis? His father was Greek and his mother Othoman(i am not sure about his mother). He only went to Albania because it suited him. The first time he went there was as a Turkish soldier. Didn't know that?
Btw, Illirians have nothing to do with Albanians. Albanian origins, are a mix of Slav and Greek people. Illirians were hellenised and assimilated during the Roman era.

[achilles]

Shqiptari, you do know that your national hero Skederbei's real name was Georgios Kastriotis? His father was Greek and his mother Othoman(i am not sure about his mother). He only went to Albania because it suited him. The first time he went there was as a Turkish soldier. Didn't know that?
Btw, Illirians have nothing to do with Albanians. Albanian origins, are a mix of Slav and Greek people. Illirians were hellenised and assimilated during the Roman era.

It is true that the Albanians dont really know where they are coming from...not that it matters, but some of them could spare us all the nonsense...

I bet Shqiptari, doesnt even know that his very username might stand for something that is Greek:

Most Arvanites strongly dislike being called Albanians. Some Arvanites of northwestern Greece (Epirus and western Macedonia) use the word Shqiptárë (Σ̈κ̇ιπτάρε̰) to identify themselves. The word Shqiptárë is used as well in a few vilages of Thrace, where Arvanites migrated from the mountains of Pindos during the 19th century. On the other hand, this word is totally unknown among the main body of the Arvanites in southern Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

The link also includes a theory according to which the Arvanites are of Doric descent.
I cannot be sure, of course, but my take of it the story of Arvanites is that they consist of a mixture of Hellenic, Illyrian and Slavic blood. They are Greeks nonetheless and fought bravely in our war of independence.

[achilles]

Shqiptari, you do know that your national hero Skederbei's real name was Georgios Kastriotis? His father was Greek and his mother Othoman(i am not sure about his mother). He only went to Albania because it suited him. The first time he went there was as a Turkish soldier. Didn't know that?
Btw, Illirians have nothing to do with Albanians. Albanian origins, are a mix of Slav and Greek people. Illirians were hellenised and assimilated during the Roman era.

And thanks for bringing this up Vorian. Shall i refresh our memories a bit further on Georgios Kastriotis?


Georgios Kastriotis: He was also known as Skenterbeis. Greek Epirotian prince son of Ioannis Kastriotis, medieval feudal lord of Krugia, in North Epirus. Georgios Kastriotis was born on1405 in the citadel of Krugia. He became legendary for its tries to unify the population of Epirus and eliberate the region from the Ottoman invaders. He fought against the Turks for 50 years and he did not lost any battle. He was concerned also about sociological and political issues of its era, and he was accepting as prime values the teachings of the major medieval Greek philosopher Georgios Plithon Gemistos, who was arguing for a neccesity of a definiton of the medieval state and the diversification between the warrior and the farmer. Georgios Kastriotis became a legend for the suppressed by the Muslim invaders Epirotians, and all Greeks. His figure was untill the 19th Century, considered as National Hero of resistance and military success. With the illegal creation of the Albanian state in 1914, the unorganized and savage till then Albanian tribes tried to invent a medieval history in order to justify the existence of their illegal state. So during the communist era, the stalinist regime of Enver Xoxha adopted the legend of Kastriotis forging the true history, and his origin. It was a clear example of newly created statal forms which in the lack of proper history are forging the legends of other nations. The Greek Epirotian origin of Kastriotis is easily demonstrated by simple arguments. Georgios kastriotis was cristian orthodox, in contrast with the big majority of the Albanians which are muslim (90%). His name was Georgios (ancient Greek name), and his surname Kastriotis (Kastro in Greek means castle, Kastriotis is called the person from the castle or the person with the castle). The majority of the Albanian names are Ahmet or Suleiman or something like that. Finnaly in his letter to the Prince of Taranto Jovanni Antonio, Kastriotis says: " Our ancestors were Epirotians, from which Pyrros the King was born. Who won the Romans and occupied Taranto and other cities of Italy. You do not have fighters to resist in the Epirotian courage" ("Georgios Kastriotis", K.Paganel, p.156, 1860).
http://www.geocities.com/northepirus/history2.html

He was an Epirot...shall i refresh our memories on who the Epirotes where?

Epirotians are the oldest Greek tribe. Our history begins 5.000 years B.C. Our land is situated in the Balkan peninsula between the North Western part of Greece and the South of Albania. The northern part of our land, the known NORTH EPIRUS is occupied by the ALBANIANS from 1914.
Ancient period: Our classic ancient history is dominated by the unification of the GREEK Epirotic tribes by the MOLOSSIAN (Epirotic tribe) King NEOPTOLEMOS in the early 1.900-1.550 B.C. The capital city of the ancient Epirotian kingdom was PASSARON. Some ruins of the city are located today near the modern capital IOANNINA.The niece of the Molossian King ARYBBAS, the beautiful OLYMPIAS was married with the King of MACEDONIA PHILIP II and gave birth to our national hero, the famous ALEXANDER the GREAT.
King Pyrros:The biggest King of Epirus was PYRROS. He contributed to the development of the region with the construction of temples and cultural buildings but his major occupation was the teritorial enlargement of Epirus. Inspired by the campaign of Alexander the Great in Asia, he planificated a similar campaign, in the west. He invaded Italy and confronted, the Roman Army. He won a lot of batles but after the excausting of his army by several diseases he was forced to return in Epirus. Then he enlarged Epirus in the south, occuping several territories. He was assasinated young in Pelloponisos.
Medieval Period: The next important historical period for Epirus, was during the Middle Ages.The Vyzantine Empire contribute to the development of the region, thousands of impressive churces were built all over Epirus. The Emperor JUSTINIAN founded in 527 A.C. the city of IOANNINA which became the capital of Epirus. During the Latin occupation of Greek Vyzantine territories, the habitants of Epirus confront the Catholic invaders and established a free kingdom. This kingdom was known as the DESPOTATE OF EPIRUS with capital the city of ARTA and first leader the prince MICHAEL KOMNINOS.
http://www.geocities.com/northepirus/history.html


Another important person in our history is the figure of GEORGIOS KASTRIOTIS. He was the son of Ioannis Kastriotis, a GREEK Epirotian leader of the medieval feudal of Krugia.The young KASTRIOTIS became leader of his people and he united the divided medieval Epirotic kingdoms.He confronted with his brave Epirotians the mighty Asian hordes of the Turkish invaders and he won all the batlles. In his whole life as a leader he was never defeated , so became a legend not only for his people the Epirotians but for all the GREEKS. Unlucky the modern Albanian state created a mythological propaganda that KASTRIOTIS was of Albanian origin.This is a huge lie, because in the middle ages it didnt exist in the BALKANS any Albanian nation or other similar to it.Albanian nation was the creation of the mixture between Turks and Slavic tribes, for this reason Albanians are nowadays the only muslim nation state. KASTRIOTIS was a christian GREEK leader.
http://utenti.lycos.it/regnodiepiro/Inglese.html


Of course it is easy for those who are mastering in appropriating others' history to turn 'georgios kastriotis' to 'georgi kastrioti' and 'markos botsaris' to 'marko botsari'...this is how pathetic their distortion is.

[Shqiptari]

Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son.

Excuse me...WHERE in this does it say ANYTHING about the Thesprotians and Molossians being "Greek"?? It says they had their own language...and that "Greek manners and learning" were introduced to this "barbarous land". Brabarous in greek means...non-Greek...not necessarely barbarian as we see them today.

This says what I'v been saying all along...these people were not Greeks...no one from that time EVER claimed them as Greeks...not did they claim themselves EVER as Greeks.

Do some more research...and read what the ancient Greeks say about these people. Do a little research to see what Plato says about their language...which he describes as a barbarous language which to him sounded similar to Illyrian (he spoke neither though). Also he describes the organization of the Molossians and Thesprotians. These were tribes which had organizational structures COMPLETELY different from Greeks. They had no Kings...they were ruled by conmpromise between the ruling elite...almost exactly the same as Albanian tribes would be organized later on in the Middle Ages.

What this also mentions...is Greek colonies...which I also mentioned. Greeks established colonies in the area...introduced their writing system and so forth...but these colonies were expelled by the 4th century BC.

Pirro himself spend most of his life being raised by the Illyrian King Galukus...becasue of blood relation to him after he was kicked out of Epirus.

BTW Hyllus is the MYTHICAL first king of the Illyrians (I stress mythical...becasue 99.9% of the people mentioned in these things are mythical people who probably never existed...like Achiles and so forth...Greek historians of the time tied everyone to such people who supposedly existed many centuries before they were writing...so I don't see how these things like "he was descendent of Achiles bla bla bla" can be taken at face value...its like reading the Bible and taking it at face value). Hyllus in Albanian means star...and he was followed by Bardhyl...literally meaning in Albanian white star. So...hmm...

As for them being Doric tribes...well thats your fantasy but there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest anything of the sort.

Now...here are some more quotations from ancient Greek historians themselves. I won't bother replying to the dirbble of crap from WIKKIPIDEA...a internet "encyclopedia" which can be edited by ANYONE at a moment's notice...and if I wanted to right now I could completely edit the entire entry on Albania if I was an idiot who wanted to waste my time by convincing other idiots who read wikkipedia and quote that for histroical discussions...lol.

As far as I am concenred...ONLY ancient Greek historian's accounts of the issue can be considered as legitimate. They are the only people who lived in the time, had contact with these people and wrote first-hand accounts of them. Historians of today dig up some things in some Greek colony in Epirus and claim Epirus as Greek...ignoring the dynamics of the region which were that these were only colonies and not the entire region.

Now we have Thucydides who in his book on the Peloponesian Wars gives figures of the people who participated. He mentions the Greek tribes first...and then he mentions the "barbarians"...which incude the Chaones, Thesprotians, Mollosians, Atintanians and Parauej. These people are clarly defined as barbarian...which means non-Greeks. So obvsiouly the ancient Greeks didn't consider them as such.

Then we have Skylaks whi in his geography book of 370bc breaks it down as the following:
In The North Adriatic lives the tribe of the Liburnians,
"The middle and the South Adriatic sea Is Populated By Illyrians"
"The Ionian sea is devided Between Chaons and Thesprots.Between them The Mollosians
have opened an exit to the sea wich is (40 stadia=8Km)."
"After Mollosia it comes Ambracia an Hellenic Polis,which is (80 stadia) away from the sea"
"From there and down is Hellas no end"

So Hellas is what is Greek...with Ambracia being the first Hellenic point of contact...a colony. Clearly the Chaons, Thesprots and Mollosians were not considered as Greeks by him.

Then you have the Roman historians of a bit later. Strabo says this:
"Starting from Epidamnus(Durres,Dyrrahio) and down to Apollonia, in the Right they have the tribes of Epirus....., in the Left they have the mountains of Illyria.....Then Sailing from Ambracian Golf and on, the places wich is in the East and across Peloponnesous are Hellenic.

And then he says:
"After the Epirots and Illyrians, from the Hellenes are Akarnanes,Etoles,Lokries and Ezoles"

So he specifically mentions the Hellenic tribes which followed the Epiriots and Illyrians...but clearly the Epiriots nor Illyrians were considered as Greeks.

And then you have Appianus in his "Historia Romana":
"The Hellenes call Illyrians, those people wich live across Thrace and Macedonia from Chaones and Thesprotes till the river of Istria"

Then you have Ephores:
"the Head(start) of Hellas, is Akarnania from the West,because it is the first that contacts with the Epirots tribes"


So by all accounts of the ancients themselves... the Epiriots were not considered as Greeks at all...but always classified as babrabrians...ie non-Greeks. They never claimed to be Greek...They had a lot of close contact with the Greeks, fought with some tribes, foguth against many others and so forth...but they certainly weren't Greek at all.

So...the historical claim of Greece based ont he fact that Greece claims the Epiriot tribes as their own...is false...its an invention of recent times. Its not really fair to call them Epiriots either...that is a name given to them by the Greeks of Corfu. They were a combination of several tribes...


How can Cameria be part of Epirus, and yet the two are two different areas? You are all messed up my friend...you need some professional help.


The same way that America nd Texas are not the same thing. Texas is part of America...but you can't characterise America based on texas. Understand?? Professional help comming soon??


I advise you to be more careful and less of a ****head when linking Greece with Nazis...;-)



Thank you for your advice...And I advice you to speak like a human being for once...


I circumvent many parts of your posts cause i am really bored of replying to your ingorance...its an insult to my average intelligence so please bear with my cherry picking...


I would expcet ntohing less of you but for you to ignore what I have said...

Just for your records...I have the exact figures of the population census of the Janina Villayet...as provided by the Ottoman Foreign Minister in 1910:
227 484 albanian muslims
213 281 albanian ortodoks christians
91 991 greeks
4 906 jews.

So Greeks made up about 17% of "Epirus"...most fo them being concentrated as I said earlier down in the South around Janina...and around Gjirokastra...and most of them being recent arrivals (by 1910) invited there by Ali Pasha Tepelena.

In the area of Cameria alone there lived 83,000 Albanian Muslims and Christians in 1910.


But you dont get it...we dont care about matching our current DNA with that of our ancient ancestors. We admire their heritage, study their philosophy and, hopefully, we will be able one day to stand up to their glory. Now if there is Arvanite, Turkish, Slavic blood running side by side with our Hellenic one, it doesnt matter...



That is VERY BIG of you to admitt...but I know this is not a view shared by your fellow Greeks very much...

So the question than arises...WHAT makes you more worthy of claiming the heritage of the ancient Hellens...than makes the Slavic Macedonians?? If you have nothing to do with the ancient Hellens other than your admiration for their culture (which you no longer have), then why hassle the Slavic Macedonians for doing the same?? They too mixed with the previous population that was there...or don't you think so??


Besides, can you show me ONE race that hasnt undergone serious anthropological change after thousands of years of ethnic mixture, military occupation and population exchange?


There are many...even in the Balkans...Greeks on the other hand are by far the most mixed in the Balkans.

Albanians survived as the only remaining Illyrian people becasue we lived in the mountanous areas...wheres other Illyrain tribes dissapeared...and as a result of our isolation in the mountains we were cut off from the various barbarian invasions and so forth that were the casue of so much mixing. After that...there was little mixing...The Turks did not attempt to settle in Albania like they did in Greece...nor did anyone else try to settle in Albania at the time (despite Bulgarian and Norman invasion which left some legacy). And then you have the people who themselves did the setteling into Greece...the various Slavic people...most of them have remained as they were or at the most extent have mixed somewhat with the previous Illyrian population.

But Greece is different...EVERYONE went into Greece with the intention of setteling (becasue there's a difference between a barbarian invasion lasting a few months...and settlements). That did not happen in many other areas of the Balkans.


Epirus was settled by Illyrians early in the second millennium BC and parts of it were much later colonized by the ancient Greeks.


:roll: ...and how does this differ from what I'v been saying all along?? Illyrian land and people...a sprinkle of Greek colonies...which were eventually expelled in the 4th century BC when the tribes were strong enough to do so.


EVERYTHING is Hellenic about the ancient Epirotic tribes poor man...but you carefully avoided in commenting on this (oh that was too many years ago huh?:lol:)


I said this earlier above...I quote ancient Greek and Roman historians...you quote Wikkipedia. I don't think I need to make any more comments at all.


Oh did he? And i claim to be Napoleon Bonaparte...do you believe me?


Yes...in your mind you are...but thats becasue you have issues...


So Pyrros the Mollosian king...was an Albanian or Illyrian? Only the Turks can surpass you in distorting history...



No one has distorted history more than the modern Greeks...your versions of events don't even match what your ancient historians said about the Epiriots or Pirro or who and what he was.


Yep, as the result of the Ottoman recruit of those who became known as 'Turkalbanians', i.e. Muslims of ambiguous origin who felt great when slaughtering Greeks during our war of independence.



You felt equally great slaughtering them...not to mention they weren't your lands to begin with...land which hadn't seen a Greek footstep before 1912.


Many??? Albanians and others? Others who? Tell me please i am dying to know...



The multitude of ancient Greek and Roman historians I quoted earlier :) And far too many modern hisotrians for you to know.


Oh ****...the Albanian tsunami...:lol: That many Albanians immigrated is true but your description is a fairy tale, way out of proportion. Check again what you ve been told.


A tsunami would be appropriate in describing them...although these people are not people who settled in Epirus but in the Peoloponesus...

According to the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia...
"The Albanian pop’ulation extends over all Attica and Megaris (except the towns of Athens, Peiraeus and Megara), the greater part of Boeotia, the eastern districts of Locris, the southern half of Euboea and the northern side of Andros, the whole of the islands of Salamis, Hydra, Spetsae and Poros, and part of Aegina, the whole of Corinthia and Argolis, the northern districts of Arcadia and the eastern portion of Achaea. There are also small Albanian groups in Laconia and Messenia"


It is true that the Arvanites fought bravely with us during the war of Independence. Yet, i am sorry to dissappoint you that foustanela comes from our ancient antiquity. Please recheck what you ve been told once more.



Hmm...lol...please show me ONE referance or painting of a Greek man before the war of independence wearing the fustanella. I eagerly await... :)


30% is a percentage stemming from that bad albanian weed you are on. Can you back this up? Or you will just keep flooding our thread with hallucinating crap?


yet, it is true that there are still some people who speak 'Arvanitika' in remote places of Northern Greece. Most of them, identify themselves as Greeks and even if they dont, they are not characterized by your hatred and bias against Greece.


I already gave a quote from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia describing the extent of the Albanian expansion in the Peloponesus...and that was in 1911..in the 1800s it was higher.

And here is what the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia says about the Arvaniti:
"They played a brilliant part during the War of Independence, and furnished the Greekswith many of their most distinguished leaders. The process of their Hellenization, which scarcely began till after ‘the establishment of the kingdom, has been somewhat slow; most of the men can now speak Greek, but Albanian is still the language of the household. "

This was in 1911...later on the process of Hellnization wasn't as slow.

Regardless...I'm not saying they are Albanians ANYMORE...but that those original Arvanitas were Albanians.

And despite what you may think...I nor Albanians hate Greece nor Greeks. I hate imbecils who write many of the things you write. Again I refrain from calling you one...but you get the idea.


They have been peacefully assimilated indeed...ask my Arvanites friends...one of my best friends surname is 'Arvanitakis' and he feels more Greek than i do :lol: WE dont care about genes, my poor man...we care more about mentalities and a common vision of a nation state.

Well you may not care...but that is not the issue with many of your compatriots. Yes they were "peacefully" assimilated...meaning they were assimilated by having the Greek Orthodox Church tell them that being a Greek Orthodox equates with being Greek...not allowing the teaching in the Albanian language but only in Greek, and also to some degree "discouriging" through several means the use of the Albanian language altogather in public. After a couple of centuries of such pressure...eventually everyone becoems fully assimilated.

Some famous Greek admiral from the later part of the 19th century...I forgot his name...who was an Albanian himself heard that his officers had prohibited the sailors of his ships from speaking Albanian...because the best sailrs in the Greek navy were Arvanitas. He gathered the sailors of his ship in front of him...and asked them if they spoke Albanian amongst themslves...in Albanian...to which he got a positive answer. He told them to fear and to keep speaking in Albanian...to quote him "for we are the ones who liberated Greece"

"Greece"...back in the day...was an ideal state of Orthodox people...mainly "Greeks" and Albanians. "Greece" that followed later on was very different from that...and resulted in the assimilation and dissapearance of that Albanian character...and becoming an imperialistic expansions country which doubeled in size in 1912-13 by invading other people's lands to which it never had any legitimate claim on.


I recall very nice discussions with Turks, Albanians, Skopans or you name it. The trading of insults becomes a feature when the side who is in great need of appropriating someone else's history...starts doing so.


The insults start the moment one starts discussing with a blind ultra-nationalist...and yet I still waste my time with you :)


Think about it...is it possible that Greece needs to steal someone else's past?

As the ancient saying of the Romans goes..."When shaking hands with a Greek, count your fingers."

They didn't come up with that for nothing...


1)when the albanian Government says it can NOT QUARANTEE THE SAFETY OF THE GREEK PRESIDENT.


The safety was not threatened in any way. These were old men and kids peacefully protesting. You can't handle that much?? Then don't come to a democratic country...


2) The Greek President ask from Albanian side to not allow the protesters get near him and THE ALBANIAN SIDE SAYS IT WILL NOT DO THAT BECAUSE "WE ARE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY"


Precisely...we will not stop people from portesting if they want to protest. They were not "near him"...they can protest in areas set aside for protesting...which is what they were doing. No one can stop them from doing that. Don't like it??...don't come...


3) When these protesters CLAIM ABOUT GREEK SOIL (THESPROTIA- EPIRUS) MUST BECOME ALBANIAN AND CHANGE OF BORDERS

ADD working it up again?? No one claims land or change of border...they want compensation...


4) When these protesters WAS NAZI ALLIES AND COMMITED WAR CRIMES


Says who?? Says you??


What will George Bush or any other President will do in Papoulias position?

The thing that GWB did and is still doing today while visitng Brazil, Argentian and Panama and having to deal with undred sof thousands of very angry proteters proclaiming and calling him and America all sorts of things...hmm...still meeting with the presidents.

[walford]

When a president of one Country (Greece) meet with a president of another country (Albania) and
1)when the albanian Government says it can NOT QUARANTEE THE SAFETY OF THE GREEK PRESIDENT.
2) The Greek President ask from Albanian side to not allow the protesters get near him and THE ALBANIAN SIDE SAYS IT WILL NOT DO THAT BECAUSE "WE ARE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY"
3) When these protesters CLAIM ABOUT GREEK SOIL (THESPROTIA- EPIRUS) MUST BECOME ALBANIAN AND CHANGE OF BORDERS
4) When these protesters WAS NAZI ALLIES AND COMMITED WAR CRIMES

Please tell me who can blame this President (Greek president Mr. Papoulias) canceling the meeting!
Is this meeting so important that he must ignore
1)His Safety
2)Albanian refusal to cooperate with Greek side
3)Unacceptable claims about CHANGE OF BORDERS from NAZI Supporters

What will George Bush or any other President will do in Papoulias position?The Greek President reportedly had to be TOLD that the protesters were present, there have been no reported threats to his safety. Apparently he wanted to be 'protected' from awareness that people were publicly raising an issue that he and his compatriots classify as a non-existent issue. In this country, we have people turn out in the streets protesting based upon out-and-out lies. Our Constitution does not permit the government to prevent people participating in demonstrations, so long as they are peaceful and do not impede others from going about their business.

Was every man, woman and child a NAZI collaborator? Is that really who showed up to protest?

We already know what Bush would do if confronted with protesters. He is confronted with VIOLENT ones who slander him whenever he goes abroad. He proceeds with his plans as scheduled.

BTW As an American, it is difficult to have sympathy for ancient claims by either side. If we did, we would have to give our country back to the Iriquois, Chocktaw, Pawnee, etc. etc. Perhaps we could solve the Arab-Israeli conflict by finding the Canaanites and return the Levant to them. Should we eject all of those of Saxon descent from the British Isles? How far back do you want to go?

[achilles]

Shiqiptari...without anything backing up what you are saying, your posts are considered as non-existent...nothing can be true simply because you say so.

I would be really interested to see Plato's quotes you are referring to.

You didnt do your homework as you should did you?

I am waiting...show me were Plato says that the Epirotes were not a Hellenic tribe.

The rest of your post is just your personal take, and none of it can be taken seriously. Learn how to love 'referrencing' if you want your opinion to gain some sort of credibility.

[achilles]

BTW As an American, it is difficult to have sympathy for ancient claims by either side. If we did, we would have to give our country back to the Iriquois, Chocktaw, Pawnee, etc. etc. Perhaps we could solve the Arab-Israeli conflict by finding the Canaanites and return the Levant to them. Should we eject all of those of Saxon descent from the British Isles? How far back do you want to go?


As an American who has been educated way more than ANY average American, you should have been aware that in the Balkan's, today's policy can be so much dictated by what had happened in the past.

And please consider who is in a real need to appropriate someone else's history. Us? Or the Albanians? Or maybe the Turks? Who is in a real need to deny?

Tough questions, mate...and takes a great deal of studying...its the Balkans we are talking about baby...learn its history before you mess with it...Too bad there is not much i can do through the web ;)

[walford]

As an American who has been educated way more than ANY average American, you should have been aware that in the Balkan's, today's policy can be so much dictated by what had happened in the past.

And please consider who is in a real need to appropriate someone else's history. Us? Or the Albanians? Or maybe the Turks? Who is in a real need to deny?

Tough questions, mate...and takes a great deal of studying...its the Balkans we are talking about baby...learn its history before you mess with it...Too bad there is not much i can do through the web ;)Expecting people to immerse themselves/continue the disputes of their grandfathers is neither reasonable nor necessary. Finding an 'objective' account is nearly impossible, so why bother?

I know enough about foreign policy to understand that abandoning tribal prejudices and finding/embracing universal principles is the key. You reside in the birthplace of such concepts.

Perhaps these bloody internecine flare-ups are Nature's way of pruning away a few more of those who nurture toxic ideas. Tragically, the innocents suffer the most.

[achilles]

Expecting people to immerse themselves/continue the disputes of their grandfathers is neither reasonable nor necessary. Finding an 'objective' account is nearly impossible, so why bother?[SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond]

There are objective accounts consolidating what is Greek and what is not. It only takes a bit of open-minded research.


I know enough about foreign policy to understand that abandoning tribal prejudices and finding/embracing universal principles is the key. You reside in the birthplace of such concepts.

I couldnt agree more. It seems that this is where the world is getting at. But what can a country do when practically every neighbour of hers has a claim? One solution is to reestablish historical truth, or at least try to get the message through, in order to hinder unreasonable claims and offensiveness. Greece is performing very poorly on this field as opposed to the very well organized Turkish and 'Macedonian' denial and propaganda machine. Thankfully certain things are way too obvious, as for example, that Macedonia is, and has always been Greek, or so Hellenized that if it is to be linked with something, that's Greece.

Another sad thing is that there is very little appreciation around here towards the birthplace of the concepts you referred to. You have seen the mentalities for yourself. Tell me if it is easy to get along with those people. The Albanians claim Epirus, the Skopjans have already been recognized as 'Macedonians' and consider Northern Greece to be practically theirs. Plus, the BUlgarians have their own merit in claiming Macedonia as well as Thrace. Turkey should be left uncommented.

You would want to work for the Greek foreign service my friend :lol:


Perhaps these bloody internecine flare-ups are Nature's way of pruning away a few more of those who nurture toxic ideas. Tragically, the innocents suffer the most.

If this is a natural process, let it be so we can get it over with and start on a new basis;)

Your country certainly is not helping. 'Realpolitik' over 'Historical truth' cannot possibly promote peace in the Balkans. 'Peace in the Balkans'....sounds like a bad joke huh?

[achilles]

Shqiptary, i am afraid you misunderstood the notion of 'racism' and the term 'barbarian', as those were used during the Greek antiquity.You might find this interesting:

To recapitulate, scholars agree that the majority of the ancient Greeks found it difficult to see
beyond the horizon of the city-state or to overcome the limitations that slavery and other facts
of their life imposed upon their sight. That is to say, the ancient Greeks did not reach the
picture of a world-society in which not only those who enjoy Hellenic culture, not only the
wise, but all peoples, or at any rate all civilized peoples, have a place These research findings
explain the ancient Greek cultural racism at issue; they also give us the reason why many
ancient Greeks called the ancient Greek Macedonians uncivilized barbarians [27]. According
to Thucydides, Andriotis, Chatzidakis and Wilkes, in the eyes of many ancient Greeks, many
Greeks, e.g., the Macedonians, the Epirotes, as well as the Boeotians and the Thessalians
were barbarian, uncivilized Greek tribes. Thus, Andriotis also argues that the designation
“barbarian” was attributed by ancient writers to other uncivilized Greek tribes, as well, such
as the Epirote tribe of Chaones (Thuc. 2.80). Chatzidakis agrees on this asserting that as was
the case with Macedonians, some included Macedonia and Epirus in Greece, while others did
not. Thucydides speaks of the barbarian Chaones in B.80, while in 81 it is mentioned that the
Thesprotians and the Molossi were also barbarians, according to Thucydides. Chatzidakis
affirms that the term barbarian Macedonian is not used in an ethnological sense, but with a
derogatory cultural meaning.Admitting that, for some ancient Greeks, the Macedonians were
an uncivilized Greek tribe, Chatzidakis says that for that reason many excluded certain tribes
from the national community, for they were considered to be inferior compared with the
general national Greek civilization. As shown, the reason for this ancient Greek prejudice
against the Macedonians was the ancient Greek cultural racism.[28].
http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english/enback/AGRacism.pdf

Words can be so easily manipulated in order to distort history.;)

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

@Shqiptary if you DONT know the facts then you better dont pretent that you know them.

The safety was not threatened in any way. These were old men and kids peacefully protesting.
The Greek President asked from Albanian Police to provide Security and Quarantee the Safety of the Greek President. The Albanian Police responce was : WE CAN NOT QUARANTEE YOUR SAFETY. So its not because the President was afraid but because THE ALBANIAN POLICE COULDN'T DO ITS JOB OR SIMPLY DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.
As for the Old man and Kids there was 200 protesters among them some of them where kids and olders but NOT ALL OF THEM OFCOURSE


They were not "near him"...they can protest in areas set aside for protesting...

No they were not near him!!! They were 5 meters from him and albanian police couldn't take them in a more great distance!!!
Really capable police you have!!!


No one claims land or change of border...they want compensation...
Yeah right!! Thats why they were holding signs that says "Albanian Borders are in Preveza!! Thats why the UCK Terrorists made a special division for "Chameria" aka Epirus. I bet you would say thats not true so here is a picture!

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2853/ucc9ft.jpg


Then don't come to a democratic country...

rofl. rofl

[Vorian]

I am tired of this conversation and I will try to be reasonable. Btw walford you are not helping us to clam down with your posts, if this is what you want to achieve. Anyway, I am posting an objective thread, from wikipedia, which is not Greek-related or propagandistic etc etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Albania

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/38/Ethnic_albania.jpg/403px-Ethnic_albania.jpg

These are the claims of Albanian extremists on Greece, Fyrom and Serbia.

Vorian over and out.

[walford]

...walford you are not helping us to clam down with your posts, if this is what you want to achieve...As I said in my opening post, I have no stake in this matter -- other than it is an important region that has repercussions that extend far beyond. I am only responding to the information that is offered -- and how it is presented.

After 3 dozen posts we are now told that the Greek President abandoned the meeting because his safety could not be guaranteed. Given his rhetoric -- and that of his supporters here -- it seems more likely that he expected his Albanian counterpart to use the coercive power of his government to quash free speech in order to spare him being exposed to issues he'd rather not consider.

Superficially, the claims of these protesters do not seem reasonable, but will not disappear by running away from them. It would seem to inflame passions even further. Has there ever been any true dialogue on this matter or has it simply been a unilateral declaration that the status quo is not subject to review?

I am predisposed to leave the past in the past, but perhaps some sort of arbitration may be called for with the object of not opening up old wounds, but lancing the boils so that they can heal -- if that is possible.

[Vorian]

Actually, if the President went there, while they protested, it would be as if Greece recognised the existance of Cameria issue. All the other things about security is bull****.
Anyway, your efforts to understand Balkans is admirable, though I think you will fail. I hope you notice however, that even if we become irreasonable some times, the other side is far worse.

PS: I have a question for you. Since I registered here, I have read unbelievable things about my country from our turkish friends and now from our albanian friend here. I know that it's all a bunch of crap but I would like to know, what outsiders believe.

[Shqiptari]

Shqiptari, you do know that your national hero Skederbei's real name was Georgios Kastriotis? His father was Greek and his mother Othoman(i am not sure about his mother). He only went to Albania because it suited him. The first time he went there was as a Turkish soldier. Didn't know that?

Ahh?? LOL…man that is quite a nice piece of science fiction. For heaven’s sake…read something on the man before you try and preach to me or anyone else about him.

His name…is GJERGJ Kastrioti. The tribe of Kastrioti comes from northern Albania…and GJERGJ is the Albanian version of the name George (just as Georgios is the Greek version of that name…but he never had that name!)

His father was GJON Kastrioti….GJON being the Albanian version of John. The domain of the Kastrioti’s was the region from Prizren to Tirana…with the center at Kruja. HOW exactly is it an “accident” that he went to Albania?? That is where he was from…his father was 100% Albanian, his lands comprised what is today Northern Albania. He was taken as a hostage by the Ottomans at the age of 9 and become the greatest Ottoman General of the time…but one year after his father died in Kruja…he returned and reclaimed his father’s lands as his own. He gathered together all the Albanian princes and lords and united them under one authority…and gave the Ottomans hell. I don’t see where the “accident” in this was??

His father was a CATHOLIC Northern Albanian…nothing to do with Greeks. His mother was indeed probably not Albanian by blood…but certainly not “Ottoman”. His mother was by most accounts either an Albanian or a Bulgarian princes from the lands of what is today Macedonia. Its not clear what ethnicity she was…

Regardless of his mother’s ethnicity…his father’s marriage was for political reasons to make allies with the lords of Macedonia. Skenderbe was Albanian and considered himself as such, fought for Albania, united all the Albanian princes as one and so forth. You’r writings are not just baseless but are so wrong there’ nowhere to even begin to descipher them.


Btw, Illirians have nothing to do with Albanians. Albanian origins, are a mix of Slav and Greek people. Illirians were hellenised and assimilated during the Roman era.



Huh?? First of all…if we’r a mix of Slav and Greek…how the HELL did we end up speaking Albanian…a language that has NOTHING to do with either Greek nor Slavic?? Secondly…where did this language of Albanians come from…that it has no relation to any other language in the world…and that most linguists will put it as probably the first Indo-European language to break off from the original IE language (followed in second place by Greek…indicating the two languages were formed in around the same era). These are very elementary things that need explonation and that certainly show without a doubt we have nothing to do with either Slavs nor Greeks.

Thirdly…Illyrians were “Hellenized” during the Roman period?? Excuse me…but how the HELL did hellenization happen during the Roman period?? The closest “hellenization” happened in the couple of Greek colonies along the Ionian coast that were expelled by the 4th century BC…and since then there was no “hellnization” of any sort of any of these people.

Are you perhaps thinking of…ROMANIZATION?? Romanization is a bit different from Hellenization don’t you think ;) It is true that the COSTAL cities on the Adriatic were Romanized to some degree…meaning the people begun speaking Roman. The main Illyrian cities to be Romanized were Durrachium and Raguza (today’s Dubrovnik). But the Romans themselves will tell you…their “Romanization” did not spread far from the borders of these cities…the rest of the mountainous area following them was inhabited by the indigenous Illyrians which had little contact with the Romans. And most Illyrian tribes conquered by the Romans were never even attempted to be Romanized…such as the Dardanians…who even though under Roman control were not Romanized. The Illyrians in the mountainous regions from Dardania (Kosova) and all the way down along the mountains …well into what is today Macedonia and Greece…were never Romanized at all since the Romans rarely ventured into those areas. It was this feature that allowed a particular Illyrian tribe…the Arbanasi…to emerge as the more powerful Illyrian tribe of the time. Prior to the arrival of the Romans the most powerful tribes were the ones on the Coast…the Liburnes, Taulants, Dardanians, and others. The Romans defeated them…turned them into subjects. The Illyrians in the mountains however were not subjugated…and the Arbanasi emerged as the most powerful…eventually taking over and extending their influence over what Illyrians remained not subjugated.

Now…to explain to you why we’r called Albanians and what this has to do with the Illyrians. The name “Albanian” is a western version of our name…which is Arber…and the name of Albania is actually Arberia. This is why Albanians who left Albania prior to the 1500s are called Arberesh (in Italy), or Arvanit (in Greece) or Arnaut (in Turkey). This is what we called ourselves prior to the 1500s when the name Shqiptar and Shqiperia begun appearing…a name given in honor of Skenderbe. But Arber and Arberia clearly come from the Arbanasi tribe…since they extended their control over the other tribes…and since the region where Albania is…is the region where the Arbanasi were. All the other Illyrian tribes did begin to disappear and weaken into oblivion. Babrarian invasions in the north almost depopulated the areas inhabited in the Northern Balkans by the Illyrians. By the time the Serbs came…there was hardly any Illyrian presence left in the Northern Balkan. The last remaining Illyrians that came into contact with the Slavs were the ones on the Adriatic Coast…which were largely Romanized by that point. But they did not mix with the Slavs. The inhabitants of the Adriatic coast remained Romanized up until TODAY…which is why there were large communities of Italian-speaking people’s on the Croatian Coast all the way up to WW2. These were the remaints of the Romanized Illyrians. The Romanized Illyrians in Albania on the other hand were Illyrized back when the Roman influence become weak…and as the Arbanasi and other Illyrian tribes that were stuck in the mountains for a couple of centuries begun reclaiming territory.



Most Arvanites strongly dislike being called Albanians. Some Arvanites of northwestern Greece (Epirus and western Macedonia) use the word Shqiptárë (Σ̈κ̇ιπτάρε̰) to identify themselves. The word Shqiptárë is used as well in a few vilages of Thrace, where Arvanites migrated from the mountains of Pindos during the 19th century. On the other hand, this word is totally unknown among the main body of the Arvanites in southern Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites)

The link also includes a theory according to which the Arvanites are of Doric descent.
I cannot be sure, of course, but my take of it the story of Arvanites is that they consist of a mixture of Hellenic, Illyrian and Slavic blood. They are Greeks nonetheless and fought bravely in our war of independence.


Hmm…wikkipedia. Well let me explain it to you and Wikkipedia.

There is no such name as Albanian. We NEVER called ourselves that. Albanian is the English version of the name. The ORIGINAl name of Albania was ARBERIA…which as I explained comes from the Illyrian tribe of Arbanasi which inhabited the territory which today is Northern Albania. The Arvanitas who went into the Peloponesus left Albania in the 1300s…in fact they came from KOSOVA and areas North of Kosova…They were led by GJIN BUA SHPATA…”the Sword” because in Albanian Shpata means sword. They left in a time when the term SHQIPTAR did not even exist at all. Shqiptar and Shqiperia did not come into use until well after the death of Skenderbe…Shqiptar meaning “sons of the eagle” to honor the double-headed eagle on Skenderbe’s flag (which was indeed a Byzantine symbol given to his grandfather by the Byzantine emperor to thank him for his services)…and Shqiperia meaning “land of the eagle”.

So use your logic…if that is not too much to ask…but WHY would these people call themselves “Shqiptar” if they left at a time when no one in Albania called themselves that either?? A large number of Albanians also emigrated to Italy following Skenderbe’s death. They call themselves ARBERESH…not Shqiptar. Arberesh, Arvanit, Arban and so forth…these are all names used by Albanians to describe themselves at the time…way before the term Shqiptar came into existence.

You can have all the idiotic theories you want about them being Slavic or Doric Greeks or whatever idiotic nonsense. Have you ever heard Arvanitika?? It is a clear dialect of Albanian. It is very archaic…because it has been separated from its mother language for many centuries…and does have some borrowings from Greek due to many centuries of close contact…but it is a clear Albanian dialect which is clearly understandable to an Albanian today. HOW then…are these people Slavic or Greek?? Does this thing not cross your mind at all…if they were Slavic or Greek they would speak a language or a dialect similar to either one or the other…and yet they speak a language so UNLIKE either of them…it has no relation to any other language in the world other than Albanian (its not a language ontu itself…its like the difference between old and new English…it is a dialect of Albanian). The origin of the Arvanitas is well known…when they came…where they came from…who led them…where they settled and so forth.

The “Arvanitas” in Northern Greece and so forth are NOT Arvanitas. They are called as such in today’s Greece. They are Albanians who prior to 1913 were living in lands of the Monastir Villayet or the Janina Villayet and were at the time part of these two Albanian Villayets…meaning they had continuous contact with main-Albania uninterrupted up until 1913…so of course they call themselves Shqiptar. They are part of SULI tribe…the SULIOTS.

Arvanitas are the ones who inhabit the Penopolesus and many of the Aegean islands.

Hmm….well I’m sure you know best and they are in fact Slavic and Doric Greek…but for some strange reason have the name of Albanians and speak an Albanian dialect.

As for them being Greeks…they are no such thing. Today is a different story…but those who fought the Ottomans in the 1800s were not Greeks. There was no such notion as Greece at the time. These were Orthodox Christian Albanians…very religious…who lived next to Orthodox Christian Greeks. They shared the same conviction to the same faith and the same hatered for the Ottomans. They fought for CHRISTIANITy at most…because the understanding at the time was that Greece would be established as a country where the parliament would be split 50-50 between Albanians and Greeks…and a land of ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS…not a land of Greeks or for Greeks. Of course this “Greece” of the time was about half of what it is today…since no one was thinking then of the lands inhabited by non-Greeks which today make up half of Greece. Unfrotunately for the Arvanites…they were much better at being soldiers and sailors than at politics…which the Greeks were...so of course gradually the new state become more and more “Hellenic” in character…and slowly over the time of more than 1 century…a process which really was incomplete up until the middle of the 20th century and still isn’t 100% complete…the character of the Arvanitas was denied and they were “Hellenized”.

But as I pointed out by the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia…even by 1911 the language spoken at home by Arvaniats was Albanian.

And their character had not changed as much even by that time. The Greeks tried to carry out an amphibious landing near Vlora in an attempt to conquer that city during the Balkan Wars. Unfortunately for the Greeks…their sailors and marines were Arvanitas…and when they landed they refused to fight their Albanian brothers and deserted.

Today they are not Albanians but Greeks…but that doesn’t mean the ones of the 1800s or even a few decades ago were. Pockets of Arvanitika still remain…and in a lot of places the old people can still remember it or remember a time when the language was spoken in their villages.


Georgios Kastriotis: He was also known as Skenterbeis. Greek Epirotian prince son of Ioannis Kastriotis, medieval feudal lord of Krugia, in North Epirus. Georgios Kastriotis was born on1405 in the citadel of Krugia. He became legendary for its tries to unify the population of Epirus and eliberate the region from the Ottoman invaders. He fought against the Turks for 50 years and he did not lost any battle. He was concerned also about sociological and political issues of its era, and he was accepting as prime values the teachings of the major medieval Greek philosopher Georgios Plithon Gemistos, who was arguing for a neccesity of a definiton of the medieval state and the diversification between the warrior and the farmer. Georgios Kastriotis became a legend for the suppressed by the Muslim invaders Epirotians, and all Greeks. His figure was untill the 19th Century, considered as National Hero of resistance and military success. With the illegal creation of the Albanian state in 1914, the unorganized and savage till then Albanian tribes tried to invent a medieval history in order to justify the existence of their illegal state. So during the communist era, the stalinist regime of Enver Xoxha adopted the legend of Kastriotis forging the true history, and his origin. It was a clear example of newly created statal forms which in the lack of proper history are forging the legends of other nations. The Greek Epirotian origin of Kastriotis is easily demonstrated by simple arguments. Georgios kastriotis was cristian orthodox, in contrast with the big majority of the Albanians which are muslim (90%). His name was Georgios (ancient Greek name), and his surname Kastriotis (Kastro in Greek means castle, Kastriotis is called the person from the castle or the person with the castle). The majority of the Albanian names are Ahmet or Suleiman or something like that. Finnaly in his letter to the Prince of Taranto Jovanni Antonio, Kastriotis says: " Our ancestors were Epirotians, from which Pyrros the King was born. Who won the Romans and occupied Taranto and other cities of Italy. You do not have fighters to resist in the Epirotian courage" ("Georgios Kastriotis", K.Paganel, p.156, 1860).

LOL…idiotcy of this scale should be illegal. Now I know Greeks have aVERY hard time ****ouncing Albanian names…so they mutilate them in a very ugly way…but at the very least try to write them the way they are supposed to be written. The name of the city is KRUJA…lol

Why is this bit of quotation for a rather idiotic Greek ultra-nationalist site so idiotic it doesn’t even deserve a response?? Here’s why…GJERGJ Kastrioti was a CATHOLIC. He was honored by the Pope, had close contacts with the Pope, was named defender of Christendom by the Pope, and had soldiers and money send to him by the Pope. He was a CATHOLIC by all and every account. His mother was most likely Orthodox though…since she probably was a Bulgarian princess…and some of his siblings were raised as Orthodox. But him being the inhereter of GJON’s kingdom…he would be raised in his father’s religion…that of CATHOLICISM. So obviously he wasn’t Orthodox…that’s idiotcy.

Secondly…his holdings were from Prizren to Tirana…and if I’m not mistaken…that’s called NORTHERN Albania…not the area of Epirus. He unified the princes of Epirus under him as well…and then become known as “King of Epirus” in western chronicles. Epirus was Albanian by all means…so of course he was Epiriot and when talking to the Italians he brought up the Epiriots and especially Pirro who defeated the Romans.

Thirdly…What is this idiocy about Albanian Muslims?? At the time of Skenderbe 100% of Albanians were Christian. The VAST majority were CATHOLICS…and the rest were Orthodox or a mix of Orthodox and Uniat. So how does the author of that dribble…in his infinitely tiny brain…come up with the idea that most Albanians at the time had Muslim names?? Islamization didn’t start in Albania until the 1700s…

A little bit of logic goes a long way…but when you’r that ignorant as the author of that dribble…nothing can help you.

And fourthly…for GOD’s sake...his name is SKENDERBEJ…not some Greek mutilation of his name. The Turkish name is Iskanderbej…Iskander meaning Alexander…named after him because of his skill in battle…and Bej being a title of nobility. Skender is the Albanian version of Iskander…and Bej the same. As I said earlier I know you can’t ****ounce many of the Albanian words…but please write them correctly.


He was an Epirot...shall i refresh our memories on who the Epirotes where?

Quote:
Epirotians are the oldest Greek tribe. Our history begins 5.000 years B.C. Our land is situated in the Balkan peninsula between the North Western part of Greece and the South of Albania. The northern part of our land, the known NORTH EPIRUS is occupied by the ALBANIANS from 1914.
Ancient period: Our classic ancient history is dominated by the unification of the GREEK Epirotic tribes by the MOLOSSIAN (Epirotic tribe) King NEOPTOLEMOS in the early 1.900-1.550 B.C. The capital city of the ancient Epirotian kingdom was PASSARON. Some ruins of the city are located today near the modern capital IOANNINA.The niece of the Molossian King ARYBBAS, the beautiful OLYMPIAS was married with the King of MACEDONIA PHILIP II and gave birth to our national hero, the famous ALEXANDER the GREAT.


LOL…Epiriots were not Greeks in any sense of the word. HOW are Epiriots the “oldest Greek tribe”?? Its kind of hard t be the “oldest” when you are situated in an area which was the LAST to come into contact with Greeks. Greeks need I remind you came into the Balkans from the same route that other IE people had come prior to them…meaning the Illyrians and Thracians…from Anatolia. Epirus being at the butt-end of Greece…its kind of hard for them to have been the first..lol

Of course as I already showed…Greek historians at the time made no issue on this…Epiriots were not Greeks in any sense of the word. I think they know better than this absolute moron who wrote that rather poor website.


Of course it is easy for those who are mastering in appropriating others' history to turn 'georgios kastriotis' to 'georgi kastrioti' and 'markos botsaris' to 'marko botsari'...this is how pathetic their distortion is.


As I said…count your fingers when you shake hands with a Greek. LOL

Now as I said earlier I know you have a VERY hard trouble ****ouncing Albanian names…which leads to mutilation of people’s names and place names all over Greece…because they are not Greek but Albanian names. First of all his name as I said was GJERGJ Kastrioti. His origin is not an issue at all. This man fought for Albania…united the Albanian kingdoms…was a catholic in the lands of today’s NORTHERN Albania (oh I wonder how a Catholic Greek ended up in Northern Albania?? Lol) He himself made no issue about it…and maybe you are not aware but his WIFE AND SON emigrated to Italy soon after his death with a very large number of refugees…who are today the ARBERSH of Italy…a people who speak a very clear and understandable dialect of…guess what…ALBANIAN J Do you care to explain this to me??

As for Marko BOCHARI…the CH actually being the Ç letter…he was an Arvanitas…and Bochari in Albanian means pot-maker. What does it mean in Greek?? Lol…nothing. Greeks can’t ****ounce the CH sound…so they mutilate his name to “Botsaris” This is something done throughout Greece to names of people or places which were originally Albanian names…given to them by the Arvaniti inhabitants of those lands. Cameria for example…the C being the Ç…is in Greek “Tsamouria”. You can’t ****ounce it…I understand…so you mutilate it to that.

We steal history?? Ignorance steals history…and that is what you are doing. To know who and what Skenderbe was…all you have to do is go to Italy and speak to his DIRECT and UNINTERRUPTED descendents (if Albanians in Albania do not suit your taste)…the ones who went to Italy from the late 1400s on as refugees led by his wife and son. Ask them who and what he was…who he fought for…or ask them who and what inhabited those lands at his time. The legacy and image and history of Skenderbe are uninterrupted from the time of his death till today in the Arberesh. They have nothing to do with Enver Hoxha and the communists…which your idiotic source claims is what created the modern image of Skenderbe. These people are in Italy! The image of Skenderbe is uninterrupted in Italy from the time of his death until today. The image of Skenderbe as Albanian is not something new or recent…is something that is uninterrupted and continuous…and is spread throughout the western world…and most heavily in Italy since the Italians collaborated with him so closely and since that is where his descendents went.

So let me get this…the Italians got it wrong...the Pope got it wrong…the western world got it wrong...his wife and son got it wrong…his people got it wrong…but the imbecile 14 year old who wrote that website got it write…he was actually a Greek!!!!

Issue solved!!! LOL

Who steals history again??

[Shqiptari]

Shiqiptari...without anything backing up what you are saying, your posts are considered as non-existent...nothing can be true simply because you say so.

I give you direct quotes from ancient Greek and Roman historians…lol. Suite yourself and don’t respond to them…I know you have nothing to say to them. But that is the reality of the situation…and we see on whose side history is.


The rest of your post is just your personal take, and none of it can be taken seriously. Learn how to love 'referrencing' if you want your opinion to gain some sort of credibility.


Ah yes I’m sorry…these quotes did not come from Wikkipedia…lol I know you don’t have anything to say to them…so do yourself a favor and don’t say anything at all then!!


I would be really interested to see Plato's quotes you are referring to.

You didnt do your homework as you should did you?

I am waiting...show me were Plato says that the Epirotes were not a Hellenic tribe.

I gave you a dozen ancient Greek and Roman historians saying the same thing…Epiriotic tribes were not Hellenic…were never considered Hellenic by anyone.

I did not quote Plato because I lost his quotes…I gave the quotes I have. If you don’t believe the rest of the dozen other ancient historians…well…suit yourself. Plato’s quote addressed mearly the language…which he describes as a barbaric language similar in sound to Illyrian…but he spoke neither of them.


And please consider who is in a real need to appropriate someone else's history. Us? Or the Albanians? Or maybe the Turks? Who is in a real need to deny?

You actually!! Your version of history has no relation at all with the version of history of the ancient Greeks. You need an excuse for claiming the territories you have invaded after 1912…so the excuse is the invention of some sort of a “Hellenic” past to these areas…which never had any. And also because you yourselves as a people have almost nothing to do with the ancient Greeks in your origins background…so you feel obliged to “prove” your relation to them and establish your legitimacy.

Just look at the pathetic and shameful behavior above on Skenderbe…how even Skenderbe you will claim as a “Greek”…to understand the level of misinformation and distortion and lying that SOME of you will go to (not all of you of course…I LIKE to think people like you and the author of that website are somewhat rare in Greece…but I probably am lying to myself)


Shqiptary, i am afraid you misunderstood the notion of 'racism' and the term 'barbarian', as those were used during the Greek antiquity.You might find this interesting:

Quote:
To recapitulate, scholars agree that the majority of the ancient Greeks found it difficult to see
beyond the horizon of the city-state or to overcome the limitations that slavery and other facts
of their life imposed upon their sight. That is to say, the ancient Greeks did not reach the
picture of a world-society in which not only those who enjoy Hellenic culture, not only the
wise, but all peoples, or at any rate all civilized peoples, have a place These research findings
explain the ancient Greek cultural racism at issue; they also give us the reason why many
ancient Greeks called the ancient Greek Macedonians uncivilized barbarians [27]. According
to Thucydides, Andriotis, Chatzidakis and Wilkes, in the eyes of many ancient Greeks, many
Greeks, e.g., the Macedonians, the Epirotes, as well as the Boeotians and the Thessalians
were barbarian, uncivilized Greek tribes. Thus, Andriotis also argues that the designation
“barbarian” was attributed by ancient writers to other uncivilized Greek tribes, as well, such
as the Epirote tribe of Chaones (Thuc. 2.80). Chatzidakis agrees on this asserting that as was
the case with Macedonians, some included Macedonia and Epirus in Greece, while others did
not. Thucydides speaks of the barbarian Chaones in B.80, while in 81 it is mentioned that the
Thesprotians and the Molossi were also barbarians, according to Thucydides. Chatzidakis
affirms that the term barbarian Macedonian is not used in an ethnological sense, but with a
derogatory cultural meaning.Admitting that, for some ancient Greeks, the Macedonians were
an uncivilized Greek tribe, Chatzidakis says that for that reason many excluded certain tribes
from the national community, for they were considered to be inferior compared with the
general national Greek civilization. As shown, the reason for this ancient Greek prejudice
against the Macedonians was the ancient Greek cultural racism.[28].
http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english...k/AGRacism.pdf (http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english/enback/AGRacism.pdf)

Words can be so easily manipulated in order to distort history.


Sorry to disappoint you once more. The terms “Hellens” and “barbarians” are very easy to understand and differentiate. Barbarian describes a people whose language is strictly NON-HELLENIC. Babrarian coming from “bar bar”…which is what the languages they did not understand sounded like to the Greeks. Hellens clearly means…Hellens…people of a Greek descent. It does NOT have to do with the level of civilization…it has to do with their language.

Secondly…WHO exactly said the Macedonians were Greeks to begin with??? ;) The Macedonians are well documented…including Alexander the Great…to have spoken their own language which was different from Greek. The first Macedonian king to create close ties with the Greeks was Alexander I, who was given the title of “Filieleni” by the poet Pindar…Filienei meaning “friend of the Hellens”…meaning he wasn’t one himself! Greek influence, culture and so forth penetrated deep into Macedonia…but that doesn’t mean they were Greeks! (sort of the same thing that is very evident in MANY cultures around the world today…why the ruling class in Nigeria for example speaks English, why the ruling class in Lebanon speaks French, why the ruling class in Japan or Egypt or elsewhere when they were industrializing was more western than the westerners themselves…this is the same idea…but because they were “westernized” didn’t mean they were all of a sudden British, American or French…The same with Alxander and the Macedonians)

They were educated in “Greek culture” by Greek teachers hired to come to Macedonia…as was Alexander the Great. They were even allowed to play at the Olympics because they were the so-called “friends of the Hellens”. But they were more related with the Illyrians and Epiriots than anyone else. Macedonians probably were a mix of the Illyrians and Thracians…who “westernized” to a large extent in culture and philosophy. Of course they had no alphabet of their own so they wrote in Greek…as did Illyrians and Epiriots…which led to some historians of today thinking they were “greek” because of that. Illyria, Epirus and Macedonia were joined together by Philip…and most of Alexander’s soldiers came from the Illyrians, Epiriots, Thracians and Macedonians…not Greeks. In 334BC when Alexander with an army of 35,000 crossed the Hellaspont, only some 7,000 were soldiers who were provided by his new Greek subjects.

They spoke a different language…that is known for a fact. Greek historians of the time speak of that language. Plutrach wrote that when Clitus, one of his Greek commanders, insulted the Macedonians, Alexander “called out his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance” (Plutrach, 1952, 277-78). Also other mentions for example when Alexander put Philotas, one of his Greek commanders on trial, he demanded that he speak in Macedonian so that his judges could understand him, to which Philotas replied “I shall speak in Greek because I want to be understood by my own countrymen” (Plutrach, 1952, 258).

And of course the fact that the Greeks did NOT consider the Macedonians as Hellenics…is made clear by people like Demosthenes ;) …who spoke this way at the time of Philip (before they were conquered by the Macedonians)…”And shall Philip and his actions raise like indignation? He who is not only no Greek, no way allied to Greece, but sprung from a part of the barbarian world unworthy to be named: a vile Macedonian, where formerly we could not find a slave fit to purchase!” (Demosthenes, 1830, 146) I don’t know how much room for interpretation that leaves J

Greek was the international language at the time…like English is today or like Latin would become later on. Greek was the written language for all sorts of people who had no alphabet of their own. Greek culture was that time’s version of “western” culture of today…and Macedonia had begun to be “westernized” long before Alexander…So he spread all these things but that doesn’t mean he was a “Greek”…he was Macedonian…a distinctly different people with a distinctly different language.

Similar occurrences can be seen many times all over the world. The Japanese Emperor becoming more western than westerners themselves and spreading this westernization…yet that didn’t make him a British or a German now did it?? Various leaders in Africa, Latin America or the Middle East doing the same…to the point that some ruling elite in places like Nigeria speak only English now…but that doesn’t mean they are English.

So why is it so hard to read what the ancient Greek historians themselves say about these events?? Do you really need to quote Wikkipedia or some idiotic website made by a 14 year old kid…to tell us how Skenderbe was a Greek, Epiriots were Greeks, Macedonians were Greeks and so forth?? As I said ignorance is what steals history…

Because some modern western historians uses modern understanding to tell us that “barbarian” may have been used to describe “uncivilized Greek tribes”…then it must be so. And what examples does he use to point this out?? The Epiriot tribes!! LOL…the same tribes that EVERY Greek historian or Roman historian of the ancient world describes as non-Hellenic, barbarian, and not-Greek. Funny…Here’s a wild theory!!..Maybe they weren’t Greeks! lol


The Greek President asked from Albanian Police to provide Security and Quarantee the Safety of the Greek President. The Albanian Police responce was : WE CAN NOT QUARANTEE YOUR SAFETY. So its not because the President was afraid but because THE ALBANIAN POLICE COULDN'T DO ITS JOB OR SIMPLY DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.

Hmm…Albanian police said we cannot guarantee your safety?? Albania said…everything is peaceful…lol.

Listen…stop BS-ing…you don’t want to deal with the issue...don’t deal with it…you will be forced to at some point in the future though…but don’t say stupid things like this to excuse it.


No they were not near him!!! They were 5 meters from him and albanian police couldn't take them in a more great distance!!!
Really capable police you have!!!

HELLO…he was in Gjirokastra when he decided to leave. The protest was in Saranda. Do you know the distance between Gjirokastra and Saranda?? Its more than 5m…lol


Yeah right!! Thats why they were holding signs that says "Albanian Borders are in Preveza!! Thats why the UCK Terrorists made a special division for "Chameria" aka Epirus. I bet you would say thats not true so here is a picture!

We can’t have a division called Cameria?? Cameria is Albanian…Albania’s borders are at Preveza…those are matters of historical fact. This is land invaded in 1913…there’s no contest on that. It is not fact however that these people were demanding border change of any sort…they were thre demanding compensation.


Anyway, I am posting an objective thread, from wikipedia, which is not Greek-related or propagandistic etc etc.

Ugh...wikkipedia…the last refuge of 13 year olds in search of an argument to make…LOL..very amuzing nonetheless.


These are the claims of Albanian extremists on Greece, Fyrom and Serbia.

I don’t see any “claim” being made here?? Those are HISTORICAL MAPS OF ALBANIA. They are a matter of historical FACT. They show the territory allocated to Albania by the Ottomans under the “4 Albanian Villayets” of Janina, Kosova, Shkodra and Monastir.

We can’t have maps of historical facts?? You want us to erase our history because you invaded those lands?? No…but there is no “claims” or calls for taking over those territories being made in that map or elsewhere.

Can Mexico publish maps of Mexico as it looked pre-1848 (I don’t recall...that is when the US invaded California, NM and Texas right??) It is matter of historical fact…so of course they can…and they can grief over the loss of their land too…but they aren’t “claiming” anything…and neither are we for that matter. If we were “claiming” anything…it wouldn’t have taken much to have broken off the Albanian-inhabited parts of Macedonia after we defeated the Mac Army. Instead our stated objectives…and the objectives achieved…were equal-rights and fair representation.

You can’t erase history…you can change the face of reality today…but history is history and you will NEVER be able to erase the fact that those lands were inhabited by Albanians up until 1913…and that you ethnically cleansed them and massacred them out of there to form your ethnically “pure” state of Greece.


Has there ever been any true dialogue on this matter or has it simply been a unilateral declaration that the status quo is not subject to review?

As far as the Greeks are concerned…this issue has never been discussed and is not allowed to be discussed. Here is the situation in the words of the Chams themselves…dated 1947: You judge:


M E M O R A N D U M OF THE ANTI - FASCIST COMMITTEE OF THE ÇAMI IMMIGRANTS IN ALBANIA TO THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL INVESTIGATION COMMISSION ON THE TREATMENT OF THE ÇAMI ALBANIAN MINORITY IN GREECE AND THE MASSACRE AGAINST IT

We, the Anti-fascist Committee of the Çami immigrants in Albania, believing in the democratic and humanitarian principles of the United Nations Organization, on behalf of the Çami immigrants in Albania, submit to the Investigation Commission; our lost rights, our suppression, persecution and massacres at the hands of the Greek fascists to exterminate the Albanian minority in Greece.

In continuation of our protests and demands addressed to the Great Allies and the United Nations, we demand justice in connection with the following:

For 32 years on end, while brutally trampling upon every human principle and neglecting international treaties, the Greek chauvinistic and reactionary cliques have resorted to a policy of extermination against the Albanian minority in Greece.

As early as the Greek occupation of Çameria on the 23th of February, 1913, the Deli Janaqi band, aided and abetted by the state authorities, massacred 72 men of the Paramithia province at Proi i Selanit without any reason at all.

The massacre marked the beginning of the process of extermination of the Albanian minority and helped uncover the orientation of the Greek policy towards our population. Persecution, imprisonment, deportation, tortures, plunder and looting on the pretext of search for arms during the years 1914- 1921. The terrorist activities of the comity, the Gjen Bairas provocation in 1921, all of these go to testify to the reality of misery that befell our population in the time of Greek occupation. Koska, Lopsi, Varfanji, Karbunari, Kardhiqi, Paramithia, Margelleç, Arpica, Grykohor etc. are just some of the villages that paid dearly because of terror.

In the years 1922-1923, the rulers of Greece decided to impose the displacement of the Muslim element of Çameria in exchange for the Greeks of Asia Minor considering them to be Turks. This ignominious act of the Athens rulers our resistance and the intervention of the League of Nations which, having observed the Albanian ethnicity of our population, rejected the decision of the Greek government.

Despite the interference of the League of Nations and the solemn pledges taken by the Greek government at Laussane on the 16th of January, 1923, the Athens rulers continued their policy of extermination.

They hadre course to any means available to render as difficult as possible the stay of the Albanian element in Çameria, expropriated hundreds of families in Dushk, Gumenica, Kardhiq, Karbunar etc., robbing them of 6,000 hectares of land without remunerating them in the least.

The Athens government settled immigrants from Asia Minor in Çameria in order to populate it with Greeks and create the conditions for the Albanian native population to emigrate.

Entire families were compelled to tear themselves away from their native land and leave for Turkey, Albania, America and elsewhere; such villages as Petrovica and Shendellinja were completely emptied of Albanian inhabitants. In the circumstances, we did not enjoy a single national right and were denied even the use of our mother tongue.

Ninety five percent of our population is still illiterate. The Çameria province, a rich and fertile place, remained backward, deprived of economic development and communications; it was in the hands of such usurers and speculators as the Kochonis, Pituls, Kufalas, Zhullas, Ringas etc, who impoverished and enslaved the entire province.

During the struggle against fascism, when the war was coming to an end, the reactionary monarcho- fascist forces of Sulis Llaka, which were created by reaction and served the occupiers, adder the command of general Napoleon Zerva, perfidiously cracked down on and massacred the Albanian Muslim inhabitants of Çameria. At a time when the ELAN troops and our forces were engaged in the fight against the Germans, the EOEA command, hand in glove with the Germans, was trying to gain ground in the fratricidal war. When our forces, true to the spirit and decisions of the Sarafis - Zervas Caserta agreement in August 1944, were caring out the order of the Joint Command in pursuit of the Germans, general Napoleon Zervas, commander of the resistance forces in Epirus (ELAN- EOEA), ordered that operations and massacres to by carried out against the innocent population of Çameria.

The massacres in Çameria are a flagrant violation of human principles and an ignominious neglect of the principles and character of the anti-fascist war. The massacres in Çameria were perpetrated owing to cooperation and agreement with the Germans, who left the province to the Zervas forces at the time of their retreat.

Here is a concrete fact of the cooperation that existed between the Zervas and the German forces:

"The Zervist commander of the forces of the Filat region, Theothori Vito, the day before the entry of the Zerva forces into Filat, on September 22,1944, at the village of Fanaromen, 3 kilometres from Filat, had a meeting with the commander of retreating German forces". After the meeting, no sooner had the German forces left that Theodhoros Vito`s forces entered Filat.

Such collaboration made the Zerva forces feel safe on the flanks enabling them to unleash terror and massacres on a large scale all over the Çameria province. The forces of the EOEA Division X, under the command of colonel Vasal Kamaras, precisely, the forces of the 16th regiment of this Division, commanded by Kranjaj who was assisted by Lefter Strugari, lawyer Stavropullos, Ballumi, Zoto, the diehard criminals, the Pantazeits, entered the town of Paramithia on the 27th of June,1944.

Contrary to the promises given and the agreement reached between the mufti Hasan Abdulla on the one hand Shapera with Paramithia`s bishop as Zervas agents on the other, most outreaches massacres started. Defenceless old men and women and children were the target of the Greek monarco-fascists.

The number of those massacred in the town of Paramithia and suburbs rose to 600. On July 28,1944, the forces of regiment 44 under Agore’s command marched into Parka where they massacred 52 men, women and children. The EOEA forces under the command of Theodhor Vitos, Ilia Kacho, Hristo Mavrudhi, Hristo Kacho, Hari Dhiamandi and others, entered the town of Filat in the early hours of Saturday, the 23 th of September 1944,after they had besieged it. They had entered Spatar, too on the same day. They looted all the families and took with them whatever they could find.

On the evening of September 23, dawning September 24, 1944, the forces commanded by Kranjaj, Strugari and others joined in. The arrival of these forces was the signal for the commencement of the massacre. Forty seven men, women and children were massacred in Filat, while in Spatar, part of whose population had found shelter in other villages, the number of the massacred people was 157. All the young women and girls were ill-treated and raped by Zervas` criminals.

A few days later, the monarcho - fascists rounded up all the men who were still alive and by decision of trial presided over by Koqinja, chairman, Stavropulos, prosecutor and four members, 47 innocent Albanians were massacred.

In Granica, Filat, 46 people killed by fire arms or stabbed to death were buried, whereas another 45 others were buried in Xhelo Meto`s field in the Filat plain. Entire families, parents, children and babies, were wiped out. Women and girls were raped.

Hundreds of statements made by those who escaped, describe the massacre and the sufferings which shed light on the crimes and designs of the monarcho- fascists in ÇAMERIA.

Here are a few examples:

Sanije Bollati, in Paramithia, was burned with petrol after her breasts were cut off and her eyes put out. Ymer Murati was killed and, mutilated in Paramithia. Çili Popova from Popova wearing army uniform together with a squad of soldiers broke into Sulo Tari`s home where more than 40 women had taken refuge, carried off the prettiest women and girls by force into another room where they forced ****** intercourse on them. The house resounded with the cries of pain and horror of the women in torment during all the night. Seri Fejzo, Fizret Sulo Tare and others were the target of the crime.

Hilmi Beqiri from Filat was wounded in front of his family. After those who wonted him, had left, his family took him to the dentist Mavrudhiu who kept him for a few hours, then he asked to take him away.

Those who took him to Stavro Muhexhiri, left for Shuaip Meta's home where many families had gathered. The Greek and arts learned where he had hidden, tore him away from the others, pulled out his gold teeth with pincers and shot him dead afterwards.

Malo Muho, 80 years old, who had been sick for four years, was killed with a shovel in front of his wife. His wife collected his brains, which had fallen on her lap and covered him with a quilt.

At Spatar, Abdul Nurçe was taken away, brought to Filat bare footed, dragged on the streets of the town and then, was shot in front of Nidh Tafeq's home.

Lile Rustem's family consisting of 16 people, mainly children, was completely exterminated.

Xhelal Mini from Paramithia was beheaded with bayonets on V:F7.

The dead body of Myfti Hasan Abdulla. Sali Muhedini, Abedin Bako, Muharrem ****ja and Malo Sejdi had their fingers, noses, tongues and feed cut off. As they were suffering from extreme pain, Zerva's and arts were singing their commander's song and rejoicing at the sight. Finally, they hanged them on the butchers' hooks. Estref Himi, a resident of Paramithia, has to say about the massacre at Paramithia:

"On Tuesday, June 27,1944, at 7 hours a.m., Greek monarcho- fascists marched into Paramithia, under the command of colonel Kamara, major Kranja, captain Lefter Strugari (a lawyer), vice- lieutenant Nikolla Çenos and others. Once they entered the town, an order was issued that nobody should move because honour, freedom and property were in noway to be violated. On the afternoon, men, women and children began to be arrested, while houses began to be looted. All men were killed until the next morning. After I was detained in a jail for 4 days, I was set to bury the dead.

At the place called "Kisha e Aj Jorgjit", I recognized five of the dead, the others could not be recognised because of the extreme torture inflicted on them. The five victims I recognized were Met Qere, Sami Asim, Mahmut Kupi, Adem Beqiri and Haki Mile. Two days after, I was taken to "Galatajt" and then, to the vicinity of Dhimiter Nikolla's home, were people had been killed. I could not tell who they were for they had been mutilated beyond recognition. I saw dead bodies littering all the place. Sanije Bollati, after being tortured, was burnt with kerosene.

[Shqiptari]

Continued...



This tragedy took place on Wednesday. On Friday morning, she was carried away by her mother and two other people, who covered her with a blanket to a basement by order of the monarcho-fascists who prevented people from seeing her. There, in the basement, she died after five days. I saw everything with my own eyes. First I went into hiding finding shelter on a ceiling staying there for five days, then the monarcho-fascists found and arrested me and after being taken to major Kranja, the latter interrogated me and then ordered that I be jailed.

In the jail, I found 380 people, including womenfolk and children; 120 of them died of hunger; four persons and I were kept in the prison for 15 days and then, they took us to Preveza and afterwards to Ioannina where we were detained for another 40 days.

There, we were subject to unheard of tortures. We were freed when the E.A.M. forces çame to the town".

Dervish Sulo from the Spatar village Filat describes the massacres at Spatar as follows:

"On the morning of a Saturday, September 1944, all the population was rounded up front the village mosque. The soldiers began looting the houses and raping women, girls including old women, girls including old womenfolk.

Pale Çulani, 50 years old, was raped, her personal belongings were taken, her hair and then, her ears were cut off and finally she was shot in her garden in the vicinity of Muço's corn field.

The family of Sako Banushi from Skopjona, that is, women, men and children, had settled in our home. After raping the women whose breasts were cut off with knives, all the family was massacred... In the of Damin Muhameti, 5 women and 3 children were shot... In the home of Fetin Muhameti, Hane Isufi and another woman were tortured and then raped. In the home of Dul Sheref, the 80 year old man Sulejman Dhrimica and his wife were beheaded. In the home of Mete Braho 20 people, women, children and men were burned alive... Kije Nurcia, 76 years old, was killed with a knife... I saw 30 massacred people in the vineyard of Zuyla in garden of Avdul Nurça...in the home of Haxhi Latif, Haxhi Culan's daughter was raped, while in the house of Mejdi Mete, Hava Ajshe and Nazo Arapi were raped, the latter was massacred afterwards."

The victims and losses in human lives, according to statistics so far, during the 1944-1945 massacre against the Albanian minority in Greece reached the number of 2,877:

In Filat and suburbs 1,286, in Gumenica and suburbs 192, in Paramithia and suburbs 673 and Margellic and Parka 620. That was the fate of those who failed to leave Çameria with the exception of some women who are living witnesses to the hair raising massacre in Paramithia, Parka, Spatar and Filat.

What they say clearly exposes the criminal character of the barbaric acts organised by the Greek monarcho-fascist reaction in Çameria. The slaughter, inspired by the basest sentiments of chauvinistic and religious hatred resulted in the forcible displacement of nearly 28,000 Çami people who came and found shelter in Albania in the most deplorable conditions.

Sixty eight villages with 5,800 houses were looted, razed to the ground and burnt down. Based on the assessment of the damage, it results that 17,000 sheep, 1,200 cattle, 21,000 quintals of wheat and 80,000 quintals of edible oil including the produce of the years 1944 - 1945, amounting to 11,000,000 kilograms of grain and 3,000,000 kilograms of edible oil, were taken away by Zervas' monarcho- fascist forces. As people were fleeing, 110,000 sheep and 2,400 cattle either died or lost. All this clear evidence of the profound economic catastrophe suffered by our population, which was only on their clothes.

Çameria made a material and moral contribution to the great anti-fascist war. Çameria's population threw itself unreservedly into a total war against the invaders; it created the fourth battalion of the ELAN regiment XV. More than 500 fighters emerged from the tiny population of Çameria. They resolutely fought against the nazi-fascist occupiers and the Ballist and Zervist traitors. The blood shed by martyrs Muhamet Myrteza, Ibrahim Hallumi, HysenVejseli and others together with the blood shed by the Greek partisans at the Qeramica passes testify to this fact. At the end of the war for the liberation of the country from the occupiers, the troops commanded by general Napoleon Zervas operated in our provinces and villages not as liberators, but as hangmen and sworn enemies of the Albanian element in Çameria. Under the Sarafis-Zervas Caserta agreement, August 1944, the resistance troops had to join the same front against the nazi army, under a joint command in specified operational zones. The agreement was violated in Çameria.

The Zervist forces compromised with the Germans and, by attacking our forces, hindered the activity of the fourth battalion of Regiment XV in the Filat zone. The operations and massacres in the Filat province are directly linked with this situation and openly ran counter to mutual confidence and the spirit of cooperation as agreed in Caserta. Even the last village of Koska in Çameria, one of the bases of organization of the resistance forces of the National Liberation Front in Chameria was destroyed and burnt down as result of destructive acts in Çameria.

On October 30, 1944, a commission of the Çami anti-fascist Council was sent to Athens to lodge a protest with the Papandreu Greek government against the massacres in Çameria, asking for an end to them. The Papandreu government refused to take any measures or commit itself to what was requested from it.

After the December 1944 operations, with the liberation of Çameria from Zervist occupation, part of our population was repatriated and settled in the Filat province. On March 12, 1945, the government forces of the Corfu garrison, violating the February 1945 Varkiza agreement, organised and perfidiously perpetrated the revolting massacres of Vanra (Filat), which once again laid bare the stand and policy of the Greek government authorities responsible for the annihilation of the Albanian population of Çameria.

In view of the situation, the UNRRA mission (ALBANIA) received approval from its centre in Washington to accord the Çami immigrants 1,450,000 dollars as immediate relief because of their difficult situation. Despite their conditions, the Çami immigrants continued to make an ever greater contribution to the Front. At the Shales (Konispol) conference held in the latter of September, 1944, the voice of the Çams in exile for cooperation against the invader and the injustices of the Greek monarcho-fascists war raised higher. At the Vlora Congress on September 23, 1945, the Çami delegates whore presented all the groups of the Çami immigrants in Albania expressed themselves against the massacres of the Greek monarcho-fascists and, through memoranda to the London Conference, demanded an analysis of their problem and the condemnation of those who caused the bloodshed in Çameria and their endless sufferings. The Congress adopted a resolution which sums up its proceedings.

During our life as immigrants, we have asked the world several times for our denied rights and repatriation. On October 30, 1944, the Çami anti-fascist Council sent a note of protest to the Greek National Union government, the Mediterranean General Headquarters, the allied governments, the EA Central Committee, which referred to the atrocities of the Greek fascists in Çameria. On May 9, 1945, the Çami Anti-fascist Council sent Allied Military Missions a copy of the telegram to the president of the San Fracisko Conference on the rights of the Çams on the basis the Atlantic Charter. On June 27, 1945, telegrams of protest against the massacres in Çameria by the Çami Anti-fascist Council were to the democratic government of Albania, the Soviet, British, American, French, Czechoslovak military missions, the Yugoslav Legation, the Albanians in the USA, Italy and Bulgaria. And aide-memoir was sent to Mr. Hutchinson, a Labour deputy in Great Britain on November 26, 1945. A telegrams was sent by the Çami Anti-fascist Council on September 25, 1945 to the UNRRA headquarters, asking for assistance. The delegates to the Çami Congress addressed a memorandum to the Allied Foreign Minister's Conference in London (3,4. 09. 1945). A memorandum was sent to the United Nations Assembly in London by the Çami Anti-fascist Committee on January 11, 1945, which sheds light on the massacres and asks the recovery of the Çams' rights. A memorandum to the United Nations Assembly in New York was sent by the Çami Anti-fascist Committee on October 25,1946, and so on.

We are the victims of the monarchic regime, which is ruling in Greece, today.

Together with the fraternal Greek people, we are suffering from the consequences of the black terror unleashed by all over Greece. It is two and a half years now that we have been roaming in Albania leaving a miserable life far from our native land, at a time when our rich land is unjustly exploited by the agents of the monarcho-fascists in Çameria.

Our sufferings in exile have been and are boundless. Thousands of people have died because of this situation. Despite protests we have made and the rights we are entitled to, we continue to be in exile, whereas the Greek government has gone all out to establish aliens in our Çameria in order to prevent us from going back home. On behalf our population we once more lodge a protest and bring to the attention of the Investigation Commission of the United Nations Security Council the tragedy played out in Çameria and the act carried out to exterminate our population.

We stress the need for a urgent settlement of the Çami problem, confident that following demands will be met:

Adoption of immediate measures to halt the settlement of aliens in our native land.
Repatriation of all the Çams.
Restitution of our property and remuneration of damage in liquid and fixed capital.
Assistance to rebuild our homes and resettlement.
Safeguards and guarantees emanating from the international treaties and mandates, such as guaranteed civil, political, cultural rights and personal safety.
Trial and condemnation of all those who are responsible for the crimes they have perpetrated. With our highest consideration


THE ANTI-FASCIST COMMITTEE OF THE ÇAMI IMMIGRANTS

Tirana, 1947

This was the toll on the population of Chameria:


MASSACRES AND ROBBERY PERPETRATED BY GREEK CHAUVINISM AGAINST THE ALBANIAN POPULATION OF CHAMERIA (1940-1945)

Killed persons:

1940-1941

Internment of all male persons from 16 to 75 years of age, started by the Metaxa regime two months before Greece's occupation by fascist Italy and continued. Thousand of Chams were interned to the islands of the Aegean Sea. During the internment, 450 people died of tortures.

June 27, 1944

City / Villages Men Women Total
Paramithi,
Margellic, Gumenice and villages 800 230 1030
Prge 130 130

August 1944

Filat and villages: 198 61 259

March 1945

Filat and villages : 372 59 431



Death in internment: 450 - 450



Total 1950 350 2300

Deaths in route(diseases and afflictions): - - 2400

Victims (total): 1950 - 350 - 4700

Raped women: - 475

Kidnapped women: - 76

- Region- - villages- - burnt houses -
Parge, Preveze, Arta Paramithi, Margelliç: 21 2300
Gumenice: 26 2300
Filat: 44 1200
Total: 91 5800

RELIGIOUS OBJECTS BURNT DOWN:

Paramithi (town) - 7 mosques -
Paramithi (villages) - 54 mosques -
Gumenice and villages - 25 mosques -
Filat (town) - 2 mosques -
Filat (villages) - 22 mosques -

Total: 110 mosques BURNED



Large scale plunder of agricultural and livestock products, as well as morethan 46 000 sheep and 5137 cattle.

[Shqiptari]

I hope you notice however, that even if we become irreasonable some times, the other side is far worse.


LOL...I see. So the replies of your compatriot "Achiles" which consist mainly of pathetic personal insults and not much more...are "irreasonable at times"...but we are "much worse". I don't think this needs much of a response from me...some of you have already shown the true colors.

You ryourself and many others though I have no issue with...its just tell your friend Achiles to start speaking more like a human being than an animal...especially in the other thread where we are discussing this issue.

I insult no one here...so I would appreciate a bit more mature behavior on the part of the members here too.

[achilles]

His father was a CATHOLIC Northern Albanian…nothing to do with Greeks. His mother was indeed probably not Albanian by blood…but certainly not “Ottoman”. His mother was by most accounts either an Albanian or a Bulgarian princes from the lands of what is today Macedonia. Its not clear what ethnicity she was…

SAYS WHO? SAYS WHO? SAYS WHO? YOU???? :lol: :lol: Where are you taking these things from? The Greeks provide links in order to back up their claims, to the extent this is possible on an internet board, and you provide ****. Why would anyone believe what you are saying? Geez what a waste of keystrokes and bandwidth. Show me who says that Kastriotis was a Catholic.;)


Regardless of his mother’s ethnicity…his father’s marriage was for political reasons to make allies with the lords of Macedonia. Skenderbe was Albanian and considered himself as such, fought for Albania, united all the Albanian princes as one and so forth. You’r writings are not just baseless but are so wrong there’ nowhere to even begin to descipher them.

ah! He considered himself to be an Albanian, long before the term 'Albanian' even existed. SAYS WHO? Try to consolidate your claims for ONCE.


Huh?? First of all…if we’r a mix of Slav and Greek…how the HELL did we end up speaking Albanian…a language that has NOTHING to do with either Greek nor Slavic??
Now this is one huge gap of rationality you have to deal with...if a equals b then c equals bananas! :lol:

How can your distorted brain can link without any doubt 'language' with 'DNA'? I am not so much in favour of the theory that presents Albanians as having Greek blood in them (though some of you unavoidably do, and vice versa), but the above statement stands on no grounds. Language does not go hand in hand with genes, that is fairly simply to grasp now isnt it?



Secondly…where did this language of Albanians come from…that it has no relation to any other language in the world…and that most linguists will put it as probably the first Indo-European language to break off from the original IE language (followed in second place by Greek…indicating the two languages were formed in around the same era). These are very elementary things that need explonation and that certainly show without a doubt we have nothing to do with either Slavs nor Greeks.

Thats a fairly reasonable comment, although you sound way too sure for your claims. The origins of the Albanians, their links to the Illyrians, and the very origins of the modern Albanian language are, at best, moot issues. But it seems that you have made up your mind since that suits you a lot.


Thirdly…Illyrians were “Hellenized” during the Roman period?? Excuse me…but how the HELL did hellenization happen during the Roman period?? The closest “hellenization” happened in the couple of Greek colonies along the Ionian coast that were expelled by the 4th century BC…and since then there was no “hellnization” of any sort of any of these people.
I do not know whether Illyrians were 'Hellenized' during the Roman period, although i have no doubt that many of them were hellenized during the BYzantine era (or eastern Roman if you like). Dont let yourself confuse Rome with Byzantium, although the two are closely interrelated.



Now…to explain to you why we’r called Albanians and what this has to do with the Illyrians. The name “Albanian” is a western version of our name…which is Arber…and the name of Albania is actually Arberia. This is why Albanians who left Albania prior to the 1500s are called Arberesh (in Italy), or Arvanit (in Greece) or Arnaut (in Turkey).

Where is the undisputed link with the Illyrians?



This is what we called ourselves prior to the 1500s when the name Shqiptar and Shqiperia begun appearing…a name given in honor of Skenderbe. But Arber and Arberia clearly come from the Arbanasi tribe…since they extended their control over the other tribes…and since the region where Albania is…is the region where the Arbanasi were.

Where is the undisputed link with the Illyrians?? Did you perhaps forget to say that the Arbanasis were Illyrians? Says who? I am not saying they werent...but say who??



All the other Illyrian tribes did begin to disappear and weaken into oblivion. Babrarian invasions in the north almost depopulated the areas inhabited in the Northern Balkans by the Illyrians. By the time the Serbs came…there was hardly any Illyrian presence left in the Northern Balkan. The last remaining Illyrians that came into contact with the Slavs were the ones on the Adriatic Coast…which were largely Romanized by that point. But they did not mix with the Slavs. The inhabitants of the Adriatic coast remained Romanized up until TODAY…which is why there were large communities of Italian-speaking people’s on the Croatian Coast all the way up to WW2. These were the remaints of the Romanized Illyrians. The Romanized Illyrians in Albania on the other hand were Illyrized back when the Roman influence become weak…and as the Arbanasi and other Illyrian tribes that were stuck in the mountains for a couple of centuries begun reclaiming territory.

You are depicting a nice interesting story. You have yet a lot of homework to do until you start credibly supporting your claims that you are direct descendants of the Illyrians. You might be. But how do you know for sure...if this is for sure...says who?



Hmm…wikkipedia. Well let me explain it to you and Wikkipedia.


There is no such name as Albanian. We NEVER called ourselves that. Albanian is the English version of the name. The ORIGINAl name of Albania was ARBERIA…which as I explained comes from the Illyrian tribe of Arbanasi which inhabited the territory which today is Northern Albania.

this is called flip flopping...if you never called yourselves like that, how did Kastriotis defined himself as 'Albanian' then? Even if he did define himself as 'Arbanasi', or whatever suits you best, you have yet to show us that he INDEED identify himself as such and, in turn, proove the link between what you call 'Arbanasi' and current 'Albanians'. Boy thats one task i wouldnt want to get into. :lol:




The Arvanitas who went into the Peloponesus left Albania in the 1300s…in fact they came from KOSOVA and areas North of Kosova…They were led by GJIN BUA SHPATA…”the Sword” because in Albanian Shpata means sword.

Correction. 'Shpata' stems from the ancient Greek 'Σπάθα’ (Spatha) which stands for 'sword'. The word has been modified to modern Greek as 'Σπαθί’, but maintains exactly the same meaning. Now dont tell me that the Greek language comes from a bunch of Albanians that thrived in the region 5000 years ago cause i ll do you a favour and commit sepuku....



You can have all the idiotic theories you want about them being Slavic or Doric Greeks or whatever idiotic nonsense. Have you ever heard Arvanitika?? It is a clear dialect of Albanian. It is very archaic…because it has been separated from its mother language for many centuries…and does have some borrowings from Greek due to many centuries of close contact…

It can equally be a language of Greek origin (like most western languages whatsoever) that was later embodies with Albanian elements, and eventually became a distinct language that resembles more modern Albanian. But i guess you have made up our mind on this one as well..;)


but it is a clear Albanian dialect which is clearly understandable to an Albanian today. HOW then…are these people Slavic or Greek??

Do you listen to what you say? I guess not cause you are bombarding me with complete and utter CRAP. You are confusing again 'language' with 'ethnicity' as if the two go necessarily hand in hand. There are Africans in Brazil that speak Portuguese...does that make them NON Africans for your own sake? :lol: Dude, you are wasting the time of both of us...but since you want to play....lets play...


As for Marko BOCHARI…the CH actually being the Ç letter…he was an Arvanitas…and Bochari in Albanian means pot-maker. What does it mean in Greek?? Lol…nothing. Greeks can’t ****ounce the CH sound…so they mutilate his name to “Botsaris” This is something done throughout Greece to names of people or places which were originally Albanian names…given to them by the Arvaniti inhabitants of those lands. Cameria for example…the C being the Ç…is in Greek “Tsamouria”. You can’t ****ounce it…I understand…so you mutilate it to that.

You know very little about languages as well. The Greek language is one of the most clear in ****unciation which allows to ****ounce pretty much anything. As for the remainder of your dribble, you have yet to substantiate it somehow. Too bad Botsaris is not around to tell him about his ALbanian origins.:lol: He was an Arvanite allright, but that cannot suggest that he was an Albanian simply because you sit in front of a computer and compile semi-truths with myths and shameless propaganda.



Issue solved!!!

Nah...we are just warming up ;)


Who steals history again??

Underacheivers who are in a constant need of appropriating someone else's past. Claiming that the Greeks NEED to steal someone else's past is like saying that Bill Gates needs to become a pick pocket because he needs some extra cash :lol:


First, sort out the mess you have in your brain, find out your roots and then lecture us about history....ok?

[Clearday-TRForce]

I m in trouble to understand all as a Turkish guy. But thanks for your posts.Balkans issue sometimes is very hard to understand.Keep up good job.


We call "Albanians" here, "Arnavut", we have got some street names like "Arnavutköy", it means "albanianvillage".




regards,
CDTRF

[achilles]

I give you direct quotes from ancient Greek and Roman historians…lol. Suite yourself and don’t respond to them…I know you have nothing to say to them. But that is the reality of the situation…and we see on whose side history is.

What you did was the good old trick of the propagandizing AlbanoSkopjan axis. Cherry pick selected quotes from ancient scripts and interpret them the way that suits you best.

You know, as opposed to your well sponsored and carefully crafted propaganda, Greece has yet to devote funds in refuting your wholesale crap. Once we start doing so we will all certainly see on whose side history is;)




Ah yes I’m sorry…these quotes did not come from Wikkipedia…lol I know you don’t have anything to say to them…so do yourself a favor and don’t say anything at all then!!

Your quotes come from your keyboard and most likely by FYROM's propagandistic websites. You have yet to provide with link so we can all see your sources. And, as i said, cherry picking is quite different from actually SUPPORTING a historical claim.



I gave you a dozen ancient Greek and Roman historians saying the same thing…Epiriotic tribes were not Hellenic…were never considered Hellenic by anyone.

And i gave you a scientific article that was intended to explain to you the meaning of calling certain Hellenic tribes as 'barbaric' or even 'non-Greek'. The racism of the ancient Hellenes was cultural, not ethnic. But that makes your fairy tales collapse like a deck of cards so you carefully, or not, skipped it.


I did not quote Plato because I lost his quotes…I gave the quotes I have.

Ah! You lost it :lol:


You actually!! Your version of history has no relation at all with the version of history of the ancient Greeks. You need an excuse for claiming the territories you have invaded after 1912…so the excuse is the invention of some sort of a “Hellenic” past to these areas…which never had any. And also because you yourselves as a people have almost nothing to do with the ancient Greeks in your origins background…so you feel obliged to “prove” your relation to them and establish your legitimacy.

Another bunch of crap. It is true that the gene pool of the modern Greeks has been altered, as is the case with almost all groups of people around the world, after an ongoing anthropological evolution that lasts for millenia.

There is a very interesting study (i ll quote author, year and journal as soon as i retreive it) that clearly shows all the similarities between modern Greeks and ancient ones, in terms of everyday life, habbits and attitude. Stay tuned.

There is also another recent study (2004 if i recall correctly, stay tuned) suggesting that the 'core' of the modern Greeks' DNA has not been significantly altered, and matches to surprising percentages that of the palaiolithic and neolithic inhabitants of the hellenic world. It is not the first time that scientists suggest that certain 'races' are resilient to ethnic mixtures and tend to maintain their core characteristics. The Greeks after all depict a consistency in their behavioural pattern throughout centuries, like for example, being able to defend their borders with great effectiveness even if they are outnumbered. But i suppose there can be no solid proof of that, at least not yet. You, again, seem to be so POSITIVE, that modern Greeks have absolutely NOTHING to do with their ancient ancestors. :lol:

Science certainly does not evolve because scientists adopt your way of thinking my poor man...pause for a moment....and think! ;)

but you see, this racial talk is somewhat pathetic. As an expert in our classical antiquity you should have been aware that Isokratis defined 'being a Hellen' as being more of a cultural 'state of mind' rather than a racial one. HAving said that, he demonstrates that there were 'Barbarian' Hellenes (like the Epirotes and Macedonians)back in his times, but you forgot to cherry pick his quote.

I choose to define myself as a 'Hellene' based on my culture, and 'state of mind', without excluding the possibility that my DNA might be somehow linked to the ancients. It cannot be completely detached now , am i right? I will leave you and your pettiness define yourself through racial, and indeed very ambiguous, claims. Pretty much like the Skopjans are trying to make a case by trying to proove through blatant pseudoscience, that the Greeks are of Ethiopian descent :lol: :lol: :lol: Skopjan propagandists and people like you, underestimate your very own intelligence FIRST, by making all those pathetic claims you make


I will get back to the remainder of your post later on, and who knows? The Hellenic character of MAcedonia might penetrate your extremely thick skull, that only knows how to fill threads with spam.

[achilles]

LOL...I see. So the replies of your compatriot "Achiles" which consist mainly of pathetic personal insults and not much more....

Its 'Achilles'...taken from the Mollosian heritage ;)


…idiotcy of this scale should be illegal

Nah, not really...that would get you busted in no-time

[achilles]

There was no such notion as Greece at the time.

Really? Didnt anyone tell you that this is precisely what we were fighting for? Did your history teachers skip the part, where the inhabitants of Byzantium largely identified themselves as Graecoi (Γραικοί, from the mythological Γραικός, also mentioned in Aristotle's writings)? Therefore the notion of a 'Greek' or 'Grekos' was there, further back than the brainwashing you have been through allows you to see. Be carefull with what you are saying cause you are on the verge of making a complete jackass out of yourself.


Sorry to disappoint you once more. The terms “Hellens” and “barbarians” are very easy to understand and differentiate. Barbarian describes a people whose language is strictly NON-HELLENIC. Babrarian coming from “bar bar”…which is what the languages they did not understand sounded like to the Greeks. Hellens clearly means…Hellens…people of a Greek descent. It does NOT have to do with the level of civilization…it has to do with their language.

With the language? Is language the only thing that characterizes an ethnic group of people? Is this the best you can think of? I trully pitty your narrow mindness and unspeakable ignorance my poor man. By all means, start reading my sources just in case you manage one day to get out of darkness...

You have neither understood either of the two terms(Greek and Barnarian), nor you can differentiatie between them. It is disappointing indeed.

Lets quote Alexander the Great himself for a moment, who, clearly, speaks from a point of view of a Greek, i.e.

"... I wish all of you now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily in peace.
All mortals from now on shall live like one people, united and peacefully working
forwards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country -
a country where the best govern-, with common laws and no racial distinctions. I do
not separate people as many narrow minded others do, into Greeks and Barbarians.
I’m not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the
basis of their virtue. For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is a
barbarian. If ever there appear differences among you, you must not resolve them by
taking to arms; you should resolve them in peace. If need be, I shall act as your
negotiator. You must not think of God as an authoritarian ruler, but you should
consider him as common father, so that your conduct resembles the uniform behavior
of brothers who belong to the same family. For my part I consider all -whether they
be white or black-, equal, and I would like you to be not only the subjects of my
common-wealth, but also participants and partners. Within my powers I shall
endeavor to fulfill all my promises. You should regard the oath we have taken tonight
as a symbol of love..."
THE “OATH” OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT
- SPEECH BY ALEXANDER THE GREAT
- AT OPIS (ASSYRIA), IN 324 BC, TO SOME 9,000
DIGNITARIES AND NOBLES OF ALL NATIONS
[Pseudo-Kallisthenes* C; Eratosthenes]


This (assuming that you read it) might elucidate a bit that Alexander clearly considered himself, and the peoples under his rule as 'Barbarians', but not in the modern sense. Dont forget that ancient Greek racism has nothing to do with how racism is perceived today. CULTURE and BEHAVIOUR was the point of referrence and not biological/anthropological traits.

Read again the article by Dr. Michael Bakaoukas and pay attention to what he says on the "Classical Greek racial prejudices against the Greek Macedonians". Take your time and read it again. Take all the grease out of your eyes for a change.
http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english/enback/AGRacism.pdf


And to finish of the starters, let me remind you that Isokratis, the well known (?) ancient Greek philosopher/rhetor, claimed that there can be Barbarian Greeks and 'noble' non-Greeks. That is precisely the case. Both the Epirotes and Macedonians, as largely isolated mountainous Hellenic tribes, did not catch up with the cultural explosion of the rest of Greece, and especially that of Athens. This is precisely why they were being considered as Barbarians, or even non-Greeks (for purely political reasons) by the rest of the Greeks.

[achilles]

And lets break this utterly stupid claim that today's Skopjan's are direct descendants of Alexander the Great, once and for good; because this is NOT how Skopjan official lips identify themselves. How can a fusion of Albanians, Bulgarians and Slavs be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians? Duh, i just killed a few thousand braincells...enjoy...


The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).

b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”

d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."

e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”
http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm

So anyone from FYROM claiming to be a true 'Makedon', offspring of Alexander the Great, should be treated with care, compassion and, above all, professionalism :lol:

They went as far as erecting a statue of Alexander the Great in the capital of FYROM, Skopje. :lol: How low can someone go? The answer is VERY....

[Greek soldier]

I don't think you've used the link I provided..it's not the Brits',it's the former Finnish peace keeper's observations that counts.

Read it again. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/MACEY/macey.html



Well... the truth contridicts with your bs you've been spreading around for the last 30 some yerars...doesn't it ;)

The Greeks started to butchering the Turks in '63,we reacted in '74...that doesn't sound like exactly "taking an advantage of the situation" does it?



Well..it stopped the butchering of the Turks on the island..didn't it? Something NATO choosed to do in the Balkans decades later and it worked...oh wait..you don't approve that either..do you? massacares should've went on.


Kontra1


You reacted in 1974 because you had some internal problems. And BTW Mr. Denktas said that the Turkish invasion had to do with the Turkish Strategic plans (revive the Empire?). Try these post

KURDISTAN AIRLINES

http://mathaba.net/MNN/www.2travel.info/x.htm?http://www.mathaba.net/MNN/www.2travel.info/item/?x=366163

And about massacres and human rights and Ecumenical Patriarch and and and

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51586.htm

or

http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/05/411&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Thus, Turkey is not this democratic. Not to mention Armenian Genocide... Why did the court jailed Pamuk???? There is democracy in this country...

BTW, I noticed that a "Tsamerian" was holding a flag of the USA!!! Hmmmmmmm, AFAIK US want an independent Kossovo...
"Tsamerians" collaborated with the Nazis... Never forget that!

[achilles]

Let me refresh our memories a bit and say that the word 'Makedonia' itself is as Greek as the word 'Athens'. Stems from 'Makos', an older version of 'Μήκος' (length) that reflected the fact that the ancient, and not surprisingly, the modern Macedonians are tall. (Note that the original word was 'Makednoi-Μακεδνοί)So were they were speaking a COMPLETELY non-Greek language, yet they were defining themselves through a purely Greek word? What about the scripts that were found in Vergina that depict clearly phrases written in a distinct Greek dialect and whose links with 'Grammiki B' are beyond any reasonable debate?

Another reason for which the claim the ancient Makedon language was not Greek is pure horsesh-y-te, is this: It has been estimated that the Greek tribes amounted to approximately 230, most of which had their distinct dialects, all stemming from the same 'core' language as this is reflected in the Attic dialect (Athenian). Eventually, and due to the Athenian cultural superiority, the latter dialect prevailed, and is being erroneously used in order to label other dialects as 'non-Greek'.


Lets turn to the present for a moment and sort out the crap about the 'Macedonian' minority in Greece that is being so much oppressed.

There is no "Macedonian minority" in Greece because there is no such nationality. There is a small group of people who speak a Slavic dialect which is in fact different from what is claimed to be the "Macedonian language" These people are not a "Macedonian minority" as they consider themselves Greeks. There is also an even smaller group of Slav propagandists who are trying to create a Macedonian minority in Greece. Anyone who didn't consider him/herself Greek could and should have left Greece during the exchange of populations in 1919.


In the 1996 parliament elections in Greece the political party of the people who claim to be a "Macedonian minority" gained 3.485 votes (official result). In the 2000 parliament elections they didn't take up part at all. Of course there is no doubt of the integrity of the election procedures since Greece is a member of the European Union. If there was such a large number of "Macedonians" in Greece (1/10th) wouldn't be easy for them to stand up against the "Greek occupation"?

3.485 votes? Now thats a vast minority. If they are disatisfied, they should be careful to not let the door hit them on their way out.


Shqiptary, i must not explain to you one by one what the excerpts you are supposed to have quoted actually mean, although i will elaborate a bit on the very well known propagandistc technique that the Skopjans, and apparently you, tend to use. Enjoy, i could never have explained it better:

Distortion of the ancient history
The Slavic propaganda is often based on quotes from ancient historians (mainly Greek) who seem to suggest that Macedonia was a different nation. However:


These quotes usualy consist of one or two isolated lines which is misleading. Reading the whole document the meaning is completely different.
The translation is not accurate or some words have been carefully altered to change the meaning.

In this page we will present a number of "mis-interpreted" ancient quotes to prove how the Slavs exploit the ancient sources to dispute the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians.




Argument: "Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here using his own words, he clearly exclude the Macedonians from the Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians as Greeks."

Answer:
The text is wrongly translated. What Herodotus actually says in 7.130.3 is:
“This he said with regard in particular to the sons of Aleues, the Thessalians who were the first Greeks to surrender themselves to the king. Xerxes supposed that when they offered him friendship they spoke for the whole of their nation….”

The Thessalians were the first Greeks to surrender to the Persians NOT to come under Persian submission. This does not exclude the Macedonians from the Greeks as the Macedonians did not surrender to the Persians.

This is what the original Greek document says:

“oti protoi Hellenwn eontes Thessaloi edosan euoutous basilei” (= the first of the Greeks who gave up themselves to the king.)

Argument:"Dimosthenis said that the Macedonians were not Greek"

Answer:
This argument refers to the following quote from the Athenian statesman Dimosthenis (Dimosthenis, Third Philippic, 31)

Dimosthenis was a highly politicised figure of the Athenian political scene and was extremely worried about the increasing power of the Makedons. Hence, his language was quite harsh when referring to the Makedons in an effort to keep the Athenian public opinion alert, as well as serve his personal political ambitions. Dont forget how much politicised, especially the Athenians, were.




"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave"
This quote appears to accuse king Philippos of Macedonia as a non-Greek. However the majority of today's historians ascribe these claims to the political differences between Dimosthenis and King Philippos. It is well known that Dimosthenis as a passionate supporter of the Athenian democracy was very concerned about the rise of the Macedonan kingdom.

"Demosthenes' allegations were lent an appearance of credibility by the fact apparent to every observer, that the lifestyle of the Macedonians was different from that of a Greek city state. This alien way of life was however, common to the western Greeks in Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and their fundenmental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only as a consequencce of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the question ever raised at all."
[Proffesor M.Errington, "A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, Los Angeles, 1990]

"The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy,should not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of Macedonians, but as an expression of conflict between two different political systems: the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens) versus the monarchy (Kingdom of Macedonia). Personally, I believe that it is the common language, which gives one the opportunity to share a common civilization. Thus the language is the main factor that forms a national identity."
[Proffesor Nicholas Hammond, "Macedonian Echo" magazine, February 1993]

Also note that the quote does not suggest that the "Macedonians were not Greek" as the Slavs themselves wrongly assert, it only refers to king Philippos.







Argument:"The Philotas trial - Alexander urges Philotas to speak in his native Macedonian language"

Answer:
Another argument they frequently use to prove that the Maceonian were speaking a different language is the so called 'Philotas incident' described by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus in the "The History of Alexander"

Alexander the Great speaks in front of the Macedones of his army: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."
Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."
Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language".
The Slavic propaganda claims that when Philotas started to speak in Greek Alexander asked him to use his "native Macedonian language". Even if we assume that this episode took place exactly like this, it is still very unclear. Curtius does not make any reference to any specific language. He doesn't refer to a "Macedonian language" at all. This is only an assumption made by the Slavs. There is absolutely no evidence to support this assumption - that Philotas' native language was the "Macedonian language" .
It would be more logical to suggest that Philotas started to speak in Persian (since they were in Persia and it would enable more people to understand... ) and Alexander asked him to speak in Greek - his native language.



Here is another account regarding their language:


Argument:"The ancient historians refer to the Macedonian language as a separate language from the Greek"

Answer: This is typical example of ignorance about the Greek history. In fact there is no ancient document refering explicity to a "Macedonian language". All the ancient documents they quote referring to the "Macedonian language" use the term "Makedonisti" which of course does not mean a different language. It refers to the form of the Greek langauge spoken in Macedonia. Similarly there are ancient documents referring to the Greek dialect of Athens as "Attikisti" or the Greek dialect of Peloponisos as "Peloponisti" etc. Should we assume that there was an Athenian language from that, or that the Athenians were not Greek?

Now this is a really good one:

Argument:"Not only that the Macedonians did not worshiped the Greek gods, but also there is not a single temple discovered on the territory of Macedonia which resembles the temples in Greece."

Answer:
Here we have two lies in one sentence!

1. The Macedonians did worship the Greek Gods and there are numerous quotes from the ancient historians which clearly prove that. On the other hand there is absolutely no historical evidence to support that the Macedonians worshiped different Gods than the rest of the Greeks.

2. Several temples in Maceonia were dedicated to the Greek Gods. Here are a few examples:

The temple of Afrodite in Dion
The temple of Eukleia in Vergina


I cann guarantee you that there is a temple of Zeus in my hometown in Western Macedonia, right next to North Epirus (or Southern Albania if that makes you happier).

So what we have so far is that they Makedons spoke a Greek dialect with distincit elements (as almost any other Hellenic tribe of the time), worshipped the same God with the rest of the Greeks, fought civil wars as well as common enemies, JUST like it was the case with any other Hellenic tribe.

Do we need more to define themselves as 'Greeks'? The Slavs arrived in the region almost 1000 (!!!) years laters and they have a claim on Macedonia?;)







Argument:"The Macedonians did not take part in the Peloponesean war, therefore they were not Greek"

Answer:
The Peloponesean war was a war between two sides Athens and Sparti. A few of their allies took part as well but the vast majority of the Greek states did not participate. The fact that the Macedonians were absent from the Peloponesean war can not be used as an argument against the Greek identity of Macedonia.




Argument:"Pausanias (1.1.3) talks about a war between Greeks and Macedonians: 'Leosthenes at the head of the Athenians and the united Greeks defeated the Macedonians in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia' "

Answer:
This is one of the most audacious attempts by the Slavs to twist the Greek history. A war between two ancient Greek states was a very common phenomenon and it certainly did NOT mean that one of the states was not Greek. The war between Athens and Sparti (known as the Peloponesean war) which lasted for 27 years is well known. Should we assume that either the Athenians or the Spartans were not Greek because tey fought agaist each other?

More examles of wars betwwen the Greek states:



395-386 bc : the Corinthian War: Corinth, Boeotia, Argos and Athens backed by Persia against Sparta.

369 bc : Second invasion of the Peloponnese by Thebes under Epaminondas.

364 bc : Battle of Cynoscephalae. Thebes destroyed Orchomenus.

362 bc : The battle of Mantinea. Thebes under Epaminondas defeated a force of Spartans, Athenians and Mantineans.

356-346 bc : Phocis seized Delphi and provoked the Third Sacred War (Phocis against Thebes, Locris and Thessaly).

It is obvious that a war between the ancient Greek states was a very common phenomenon so a battle between Macedon and Athens can not be used as proof that the Macedonians were not Greek.
http://truth.macedonia.gr/distortion.html

Click on the following in order to read something decent:
What do the ancient historians actually say about the Macedonians? (http://truth.macedonia.gr/quotes.html)

^^^No biased cherry picking, no false translations, deliberately or not, and nothing but solid excerpts from ancient writers/thinkers/historians. Hey, Shqiptari, i should charge you for the free history lesson, my man, but, strangely, i am in a good mood tonight.

I can go on refuting your crap indefinitely but i got to get some sleep at some point. The class is on tomorrow morning. Be there ;)

[Greek soldier]

Achilles, heard about Skopje and EU acceptance?

The Commission recommends candidate status for the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

Today the European Commission adopted its Opinion[1] (http://www.europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/05/1391&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en#fn1) on the application for EU membership of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The Commission recommends that the Council should grant the status of candidate country to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The Commission considers that negotiations for accession to the European Union should be opened with the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia once it has reached a sufficient degree of compliance with the membership criteria.

The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia applied for EU membership on
22 March 2004. The Commission today adopted its Opinion on this application.
Presenting the Opinion, Olli Rehn, Commissioner for Enlargement, said: “Only a few years after a major security crisis, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia today is a stable democracy and a functioning multi-ethnic state. This is a remarkable achievement. The country has also made important progress towards European integration. The Commission welcomes this progress and recommends that the Council should grant candidate status to the country.”
The candidate status is a political recognition of a closer relationship between the EU and the country on its way towards membership. The Commission considers that negotiations for accession to the European Union should be opened with the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia once it has reached a sufficient degree of compliance with the membership criteria.
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is well on its way to comply with the political criteria for EU membership. It is a functioning democracy, with stable institutions which generally guaranteing the rule of law and the respect for fundamental rights. The implementation of the Ohrid Framework Agreement, signed in August 2001 to put an end to the very serious political and security crisis which was developing in the country, has been a major achievement. Solid commitment and very significant efforts have been demonstrated by all parties concerned. It has opened a process to build an integrated multi-ethnic society and guarantee the stability of the country, thus creating a positive environment for integration with the EU.
However, the country needs to make additional efforts to implement reforms in the judiciary and the police, to strengthen the effectiveness of the fight against corruption, and to improve the electoral process.
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has taken important steps towards establishing a functioning market economy. However, much remains to be done to enable the country to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union. In order to reach higher economic growth and competitiveness, the business climate must be improved and the country must become more attractive for domestic and foreign investors.
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has made significant efforts to align its legislation with EU rules particular in the areas of the internal market and trade. However, the country faces major challenges in implementing and enforcing the legislation. Overall, administrative and judicial capacity remains weak in many areas.
The Commission will closely monitor developments in all areas in the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It will present a report to the Council on the progress achieved by the country by the end of 2006.

http://www.europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/05/1391&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

FYROM and not Republic of Macedonia! I expect fuss from the other side!

[achilles]

Oh and Shqiptary, i cannot provide you with the link i promissed to the article showing the similarities between modern and ancient Greeks, because my univeristy password has expired. Here are the details instead:

Loader, W.R. (1949) "Greeks Ancient and Modern". Greece and Rome. 18.54: 121-125.

'Greece and Rome' is one of the most aknowledged journals related to classical studies. If you are dying to read the article i can e-mail it to you. I am here to get you out of the darkness baby! ;)

Plus, you probably have no clue about the very latest study (2005: sorry no link yet but i am getting there), showing the Greeks are not Indoeuropean, but rather indigenous peoples that inhabited the place even before the Paleolithic period. I will leave the implications of that to your own, indeed, very poor judgement. The study i am referring to has been endorsed by Stanford University. Even the monkeys were Greek around here, long before the pre-Illyrians (assuming that Albanians have anything to do with them) had the capacity to jump from one tree to another :lol:

So next time you rush into aphoristic statements like this:
'Modern Greeks have NOTHING to do with ancient Greeks', you should bear in mind that DNA does not change as easily as you might think, even with ethnic mixtures, and please update your info and do your homework cause the info is running...against your crap! ;)

Class...tomorrow...be there!

[achilles]

Achilles, heard about Skopje and EU acceptance?

hey, welcome aboard Greek soldier. Yes i have heard a lot about it. Its been frozen at the moment. That will be another very long process that will definitely have to go through our foreign ministry and that of Cyprus.



FYROM and not Republic of Macedonia! I expect fuss from the other side!

Oh those descendants of Alexander the Great always bitch and moan about something dont they? They are bugged more by our shameless propaganda...:lol:

[Greek soldier]

hey, welcome aboard Greek soldier. Yes i have heard a lot about it. Its been frozen at the moment. That will be another very long process that will definitely have to go through our foreign ministry and that of Cyprus.




Oh those descendants of Alexander the Great always bitch and moan about something dont they? They are bugged more by our shameless propaganda...:lol:

The problem with FYROM is that when they will really be in a difficult position (see UCK) they will turn to us!!! And of course in order to protect our northern borders (and Greek businesses...) I expect Mirages and Leopards pass the borders...
BTW, was Alexander the Great speaking Slav?? Then he might had been a Makedonski rofl

[achilles]

BTW, was Alexander the Great speaking Slav?? Then he might had been a Makedonski rofl

No no but it does go like that...they are DIRECT descendants of the ancient Macedonians without any Slavic intervention in between. Pretty much like the Illyrian/Albanian case. It seems that the only ones who lost their initial DNA map are the Greeks....damn! :lol:

Their arguments are so idiotic i cant believe i am even commenting on them.


Και το Φίλιππο πως τον λέγανε ρε φίλε...Φιλιπόφσκι? Ή μήπως Φιλιπόφτσκοβιτς?:

[Greek soldier]

No no but it does go like that...they are DIRECT descendants of the ancient Macedonians without any Slavic intervention in between. Pretty much like the Illyrian/Albanian case. It seems that the only ones who lost their initial DNA map are the Greeks....damn! :lol:

Their arguments are so idiotic i cant believe i am even commenting on them.


Και το Φίλιππο πως τον λέγανε ρε φίλε...Φιλιπόφσκι? Ή μήπως Φιλιπόφτσκοβιτς?:

Pretty sure he was called Philipofski! Later they will tell us that the Slavs were Greeks!
And don't forget Colun (Thessaloniki) that was "conquered" by the bad Greeks under the favour of the Great Powers. But I warn them:

http://img492.imageshack.us/img492/341/leopard2a402507rl.jpg

A Leopard 2A4 in Megalou Aleksandrou Avenue. REAL fuss!

[walford]

Actually, if the President went there, while they protested, it would be as if Greece recognised the existance of Cameria issue. All the other things about security is bull****.So if President Bush shows up to a scheduled meeting while looting, burning, violent protesters signs compare him to Hitler, he is endorsing that point of view. And sorry, this 'we're the fat boy at the picnic and as such are expected to take more sh*t than anyone else' is a self-serving canard.

Anyway, your efforts to understand Balkans is admirable, though I think you will fail. I hope you notice however, that even if we become irreasonable some times, the other side is far worse.I understand that so long as people in the region continue to wallow in the past, the misery of your forefathers will be foisted upon your children.

PS: I have a question for you. Since I registered here, I have read unbelievable things about my country from our turkish friends and now from our albanian friend here. I know that it's all a bunch of crap but I would like to know, what outsiders believe.As I had noted in an earlier post, most outsiders look on while you savage each other over minutiae involving people who are long-dead and hope to remain uninvolved.

Many of the domestic problems we have in America also involve people wishing to unearth old grievances and visit them upon the living. All of the tribes of the world came from one point of origin -- Africa. We scattered and regionally adapted to the point where we looked, spoke and behaved quite differently by the time we found our long lost bretheren again.

It was inevitable that we would become reunited. This process has not been pretty. There has been much exploitation, war, disease and poverty. The world becomes increasingly smaller and our political, cultural, economic and genetic inter-mixing is blurring the differences even further. Eventually all of these ancient quarrels will seem to our descendents as absurd -- if we survive to produce any progeny, that is.

[achilles]

All of the tribes of the world came from one point of origin -- Africa. We scattered and regionally adapted to the point where we looked, spoke and behaved quite differently by the time we found our long lost bretheren again.

There are various theories on that one, am i correct? Another theory sugggets that we emerged in multiple areas at different periods in time. Others claim that everything started from Africa as well as Caucasus, although i believe that the theory of the African origin of 'man' is the most prevalent.


It was inevitable that we would become reunited. This process has not been pretty. There has been much exploitation, war, disease and poverty. The world becomes increasingly smaller and our political, cultural, economic and genetic inter-mixing is blurring the differences even further. Eventually all of these ancient quarrels will seem to our descendents as absurd -- if we survive to produce any progeny, that is.

I agree in that we should let old conflicts die with those responsible for them. But you see, in my neighborhood the distortion of history is so blatant and, based on that, some have claims on the land i live TODAY, i am left with no choice but go back in time and demonstrate the Hellenic character of certain things...like Macedonia...or Epirus.

If those guys stuck with what they got and were fortunate enough to read more objective versions of history, everything would be fine. Greece has never claimed something that it is not hers.

And reconsider the role of your country in the Balkans. It certainly does not promote any sort of 'let go of the past' mentality...look at Kossovo, FYROM and Albania. The current American geopolitical approach in the region is far from stabilizing. I realize that you need small and easily controllable puppet states in the region, but dont tell us to forget our past while your policies push forward exactly the opposite.

I couldnt agree more with you personally. Its your government's policy i disagree with.

[Vorian]

Ugh...wikkipedia…the last refuge of 13 year olds in search of an argument to make…LOL..very amuzing nonetheless.

So an absolutely objective source does not suit you. Please provide me with another. Perhaps www.welovealbania.com or www.Greeksaremurderers.com
Ntw, I don't really care about the nationality of George or Gherj or whatever Skederbei. We have enough heroes. The thing is, heroes are to be remembered and put as an example, so when the time comes we will fight like them. I don't intend to fight over this matter anymore.
PS: I am not 13 years old. It seems to me that you have a complex about certain ages. How old are you?

Quote from walford

I understand that so long as people in the region continue to wallow in the past, the misery of your forefathers will be foisted upon your children.
I have no grudge against anyone. I don't hate any Turk, Albanian or Bulgarian because of the past. But Albanian nationalism and Turkish aggression are today's news and have to be dealt with. When our neighbour tries to bring up discussions about 'ghost' minorities and changes of borders then i have every right to be angry.
And as it is said, remember the past to learn about the future. Don't be so hypocritical. Every single country, including yours needs its past to unify its people. Or do you imply that the States don't think about the past and focus only to the future's serenity and peace? You are part of a country, where Germany is still regarded as Nazist and Russia as the great communist threat (by the average low-educated people, no offense).

misery of your forefathers
Misery??? So, you call George Washington and Lincoln with these terms? Why should our forefathers (not only Greeks, but Turks and Albanians, Serbs etc) be miserable? 'Cause they fought for their beliefs and countries, that happened to be small and not superpowers, with the right to judge who is good and who is evil? 'Cause our fights were national conflicts and not crusades against evil on earth? You have no right to judge them or us, when your forefathers did the same things, only with the cover of the justified cause. And at least we have stopped fighting (at least for now) and try to solve our problems in peace. We don't invade each other to find illegal weapons (if you know what I mean), using the same weapons in the progress.

[achilles]

...the misery of your forefathers will be foisted upon your children.

Thats probably one of your most unfortunate comments on these boards, walford...oh well, we all have our moments of glory and decadence now, dont we? ;)


Or at least before residing to minimally thought aphorisms like the one quoted above, you could elaborate on what this 'misery' is all about.

[Shqiptari]

SAYS WHO? SAYS WHO? SAYS WHO? YOU???? Where are you taking these things from? The Greeks provide links in order to back up their claims, to the extent this is possible on an internet board, and you provide ****. Why would anyone believe what you are saying? Geez what a waste of keystrokes and bandwidth. Show me who says that Kastriotis was a Catholic.{/Quote}

Excuse me…”links” to Greek ultra-natinalist sites are not counted as “links” to prove anything. Gjon Kastrioti himself…the father of Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbe…has changed religions himself on about 5 different occasions. He made an alliance with the Venedict in 1407 as a catholic. Then he proclaimed himself Orthodox in 1419-1426 when he made an alliance with Stephan Lazarevic of Serbia…then he proclaimed himself a Muslim in 1430-1438 when he become an ally of Murat II…then from 1438 until his death he formed another alliance with the Venedict and become once more a Catholic and died as a Catholic.

How do we know this?? Because unlike he idiotic websites you quote…who say at the time Albanians were Muslims (that ALONE should be enough to throw away the entire argument of that site…since clearly the man writing it is an absolute idiot)…we have sources from the VATICAN of the alliances between Seknderbe and the Pope where Skenderbe is prasied as the fighter of Catholicism and defender of the faith…as well as documents from the Venetians who made him an honorary citizen of Venetia and Raguza. We know the involvment of Catholci priests on behalf of the Vatican and the Venetians in helping Skenderbe…and of course that the last rights of both Gjon and Gjergj Kastrioti were done by a CATHOLIC priest. So…we know this because this is what history and facts says…Other idiotic theories and nothing more than idiotic theories and you are free to indulge in them…

[QUOTE] ah! He considered himself to be an Albanian, long before the term 'Albanian' even existed. SAYS WHO? Try to consolidate your claims for ONCE.


ARBERESH!! That was the name the Albanains who emigrated to Italy right after hus death called themselves as. Do you undestand that?? If you want to play silly word games go ahead…you relalise as I explained it to you that there is no such thing as “Albanian” or “Albania”…that NAME is a western version of our name. At the time it was called Arberia….


Now this is one huge gap of rationality you have to deal with...if a equals b then c equals bananas!

How can your distorted brain can link without any doubt 'language' with 'DNA'? I am not so much in favour of the theory that presents Albanians as having Greek blood in them (though some of you unavoidably do, and vice versa), but the above statement stands on no grounds. Language does not go hand in hand with genes, that is fairly simply to grasp now isnt it?


What is not fairly easy for me to grasp is the lack of logic in your arguments..which is really disturbing.

You make up the completely ridiculous argument that the Arvaniti are “Doric Greeks”…and that Albanians in general are a “mix of Slavic and Greek”.

First of all the Arvaniti come from NORTHERN ALBANIA>..from the ares of Kosova and even north from Kosova. HOW IN THE HELL was there EVER even the SLIGHTEST Greek presnce in that area?? LOGIC!!

Secondly…WHEN was there a Greek presence in ANY of the lands inhabited by Albanians?? For us to be “Greek by genes”…there needs to have been a substantial Greek presence in some of these areas. There never was…quite the contrary Greek was flooded with Albanians.

Language has everything to do with it…because if we were flooded by Slavs and Greeks…then there should be substantial Slavic and Greek influence in the Albanian language. There is none.

There’s not much to say on this argument…its simply ridiculous…Its hard to prove we’r not something we’r not…lol


Thats a fairly reasonable comment, although you sound way too sure for your claims. The origins of the Albanians, their links to the Illyrians, and the very origins of the modern Albanian language are, at best, moot issues. But it seems that you have made up your mind since that suits you a lot.


There’s a little thing called lingustics…and many linguists have determined that Albanian as a language is unrelated to any other language in the world…and was perhaps the FIRST to split off from the main IE family of languages some 8,000 years ago…followed a couple of thousand years later by Greek. The origin of Albanian are a “moot point” only to people who read Wikkipedia for their information.

As for our connection to Illyrians…it is pretty straight foreward. EVERY word or name known from Illyrian…has a direct and understandable translation and understanding in Albanian. That is not coincidental. It has so in no other language. And furthermore there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Albanian was present in any other region…left traces in any other region and so forth.

It doesn’t take a degree in nuclear physics to understand the relation there…but it does take more than Wikkipedia I’m afraid.


I do not know whether Illyrians were 'Hellenized' during the Roman period, although i have no doubt that many of them were hellenized during the BYzantine era (or eastern Roman if you like). Dont let yourself confuse Rome with Byzantium, although the two are closely interrelated.


First of all there’s no hellenization during the ROMAN period. Its called the ROMAN period…we know VERY WELL that ROMANIZATION occurred in some areas. Its simply put idiotic and pointless to keep bringing up this dead point. ROMANIZATION occurred in the largest cities of Illyricum…mainly Durrachium and Raguza. We know these things from the Romans. We also know from the Romans that most of the Illyrians were NOT Romanized…only the main cities along the Adriatic coast. The Dardanians for example with whom the Romans had close contacts with…were not Romanized. The more “unreachable” Illyrians in the mountains…barely had any contact with Roman civilization at all.

In the Byzantine period…the OPPOSITE happened. More like Byzantium was “Albanized” than anything else. This was the time when Gjon Bua Shpata led the migrations of Albanians into the Peloponesus…and we know these Albanans remained as Albanians well after the fall of Byzantium. So if the Byzantines couldn’t “Hellenize” people living in the heartland of Greece…how could they “Hellenize” people living in the areas further North where the rule of Byzantium was NEVER strong enough to even rule these people…let alone “Hellenize” them…when these lands were taken away from the Byzantines more times than they even ruled them…by various princes and nobles and Normans and various barbaric invasions whoever happened to invade the area every 10 years or so. The Byzantines were in no position to Hellenize anyone…and never did.

You may have “no doubt”…but that’s because you’r ignorant. Byzantine rule was weak at best in these areas. The area was ruled more often by Norman princes and so forth than by Byzantium…ad when Byzantium ruled…it ruled through its proxy princes…like the Kastrioti for example. You can’t “Hellenize” an area you can’t even control. Period. There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that there was even the slightest “Hellenization” of any of these areas. Even in the areas that fell under Byzantium…a large number of people remained either Catholic or Uniat…which was a group that called for the unification of the two churches. Byzantium couldn’t even control the religions of these people well enough.


Where is the undisputed link with the Illyrians?

The fact that our name IS an Illyrian name…as I said the name for Albania at the time was ARBERIA…which came from the Illyrian tribe of ARBANASI…which was the most dominant Illyrian tribe in the region of Northern Albania…with their capital situated somewhere around modern-day Dibra (on the Macedonian border).

And furthermore…where is the accounts of Roman or Byzantine or other historians….describing the migration of any group of people called “Albanians” or anything similar…into this region or any other for that matter at any point in history?? If we’r not indigenous…WHERE did we come from…and WHY did no one notice we came there??

We speak a language which has no relation to any other except to Illyrian…our name is that of an Illyrian tribe…we didn’t come from anywhere else…and the continuity of our existence can be proven through the historical accounts of countless Greek or Roman or Byzantine historians.

And yet…we’r somehow “Slavic and Greek”….well keep thinking that…it doesn’t bother me.


Where is the undisputed link with the Illyrians?? Did you perhaps forget to say that the Arbanasis were Illyrians? Says who? I am not saying they werent...but say who??

Says history….not Wikkipedia…


You are depicting a nice interesting story. You have yet a lot of homework to do until you start credibly supporting your claims that you are direct descendants of the Illyrians. You might be. But how do you know for sure...if this is for sure...says who?


For someone who quotes Wikkipedia to me and some idiotic ultra-natinalist site…you sure have some balls to tell me to do “my homework”. Read some books on the issue once…and then come discuss. We’r not on the same level of knowledge…I understand that…so its hard for you to understand these things.


this is called flip flopping...if you never called yourselves like that, how did Kastriotis defined himself as 'Albanian' then? Even if he did define himself as 'Arbanasi', or whatever suits you best, you have yet to show us that he INDEED identify himself as such and, in turn, proove the link between what you call 'Arbanasi' and current 'Albanians'. Boy thats one task i wouldnt want to get into.
[/QUOTE

Do you suffer from a case of advanced ADD?? You seem to forget things pretty quickly.

As I already said…Albanian is the name westerners gave us. The name of Albania at the time was ARBERIA…the Albanians who left Albania following Skenderbe’s death…or prior to it as well…are called Arberesh, Arvanit…and so forth…all with the ROOT word ARB. ARB…or ARBA…is what later become “ALB and ALBA” in western languages to describe us. To prove the “link between Arbanasi and Albanian” doesn’t take a degree in rocket science…and I ALREADY did…you just forgot about it or it went over your head. As I said…their name, their location, the history of how they came to become the most influential tribe in the region and so forth…is all pretty self-explanatory…maybe not to someone who rad Wikkipedia…but as I said read a bookfor once instead of internet trash.

[QUOTE]Correction. 'Shpata' stems from the ancient Greek

LOL…obviously lingustics isn’t the strong point with you…Its like that move “My Big fat Greek Wedding” where every word ever said by man comes from Greek.

Allow me to give you a lesson…so you may know where words of your own language come from. Neither Shpata nor “Spatha” are Albanian nor Greek. They are LATIN words…from the Latin of SPADA…which means Sword. Both our languages borrowed such words from Latin during the period of Roman rule of region ?

Understand??

The same goes for your “Kastoria” which you used in a pretty pathetic attempt to justify that Skenderbe was “Greek”. Kastoria isn’t a Greek word either…comes from a LATIN root…CASTello…or in English today CASTle. The same root is also in Albanian…and in Greek. It is NOT a Greek root word.

For Skenderbe himself the name KASTRIOTI…which in itself only SOUNDS similar to Kastoria…has no relation to neither the Greek, nor Albanian, nor Latin word for Castle at all. The Kastrioti family came from the region of KASTRATA in Northern Albania...

The only reason I brought up Gjon Bua Shpata’s name…and why I said it meant “The Sword” for for purely information al reasons…and to see your funny reaction like this one…which of course will claim Shpata as a “Greek”. So why wasn’t he called Spatha then and instead Shpata…the Albanian word?? Hmm….


It can equally be a language of Greek origin (like most western languages whatsoever) that was later embodies with Albanian elements, and eventually became a distinct language that resembles more modern Albanian. But i guess you have made up our mind on this one as well..


Well regardless of what I’v made up my mind to…that is a pretty ridiculous argument and I hope you understand why it is ridiculously stupid. I UNDERSTAND Arvanitika…and I don’t speak a word of Greek. I understand it with a lot of difficulty because it is very archaic…and because I’m not too well versed in various Albanian dialects…but that is as understandable to Albanians today as Shekspirean English is to English today. And you’r telling me…its Greek…but by some chance of luck..it evolved into Albanian!! Brilliant!!


Do you listen to what you say? I guess not cause you are bombarding me with complete and utter CRAP. You are confusing again 'language' with 'ethnicity' as if the two go necessarily hand in hand. There are Africans in Brazil that speak Portuguese...does that make them NON Africans for your own sake? Dude, you are wasting the time of both of us...but since you want to play....lets play...


LOL…your comparisons are so ridiculous its funny. We know perfectly well how Africans in Brazil ended up speaking Portugesse…and there no idiot on earth that will claim that the Blacks in Brazil are therefore Portugesse. HOW do you explain that Arvanitas speak Albanian?? If they did that…that would mean that at some point in time…living in the heart of what today is Greece…these people were ubsjicgated to a couple of centuries of rule from some mythical Albanian Empire which ruled over them and imposed on them their language and culture. Was there such a mythical Albanian Empire that imposed its language on others??? Go look it up in Wikkipedia…lol


You know very little about languages as well. The Greek language is one of the most clear in ****unciation which allows to ****ounce pretty much anything. As for the remainder of your dribble, you have yet to substantiate it somehow. Too bad Botsaris is not around to tell him about his ALbanian origins. He was an Arvanite allright, but that cannot suggest that he was an Albanian simply because you sit in front of a computer and compile semi-truths with myths and shameless propaganda.

You have some serious ADD issues…or some other similar condition. To begin with…I never even mentioned Mako Bochari…you did. And secondly…you agree too that he IS Arvanit by origin…which is what I’m telling you. So what is the argument here?? I mearly pointed out to you that his name…Bochari…means pot-maker in Albanian…and has no relation in Greek language at all.

As for Greek language…you can’t ****ounce shi8t…excuse my terminology…but thats so funny that you claim you can ****ounce things. Ever hear a Greek trying to speak another language?? Its painful…



We call "Albanians" here, "Arnavut", we have got some street names like "Arnavutköy", it means "albanianvillage".

Yep…a lot of Albanians went to Turkey during the Ottoman period. Your name too…Arnaut…comes from what we called ourselves at the time…Arber or Arberesh.

The history of Albania and Turkey is another history all on its own that deserves its own discussion…but we have no beef with each other since we are mutually undertanding. There were many Albanian Vezirs and other high officials in the Ottoman Empire…you know the Koplok family which provided several Vezirs which made reforms that brought the Ottoman Empire to its height…was an Albanian family….as was Mehmet Ali of Egypt and many of the military elite. Some estimate that in Turkey today there may be a couple of million people of Albanian descent. The Turkish government recently announced that it would open schools in the Albanian language for those people there who would want to learn in Albanian. Good relations…? That’s what friendly people are supposed to do…




What you did was the good old trick of the propagandizing AlbanoSkopjan axis. Cherry pick selected quotes from ancient scripts and interpret them the way that suits you best.

You know, as opposed to your well sponsored and carefully crafted propaganda, Greece has yet to devote funds in refuting your wholesale crap. Once we start doing so we will all certainly see on whose side history is


As I said…if you don’t want to respond to them…suit yourself ?


Your quotes come from your keyboard and most likely by FYROM's propagandistic websites. You have yet to provide with link so we can all see your sources. And, as i said, cherry picking is quite different from actually SUPPORTING a historical claim.


Braniac…several millennia ago…humans invented a thing called PAPER. From that…humans started writing BOOKS. I have a few…I’v read a few…and thast where I’m quiting things from. BOOKS…ever heard of them?? I know in your universe of Wikkipedia here exists only Wikkipedia…FOYM/Skopjan sites and Grek sites…but the world is broader…READ A FUC*KING BOOK once in your life before you preach to me where I got my quotes from.

I’v given you qotes from Greek and Roman historians. You’v given shi*t…suit yourself and don’t respond.


And i gave you a scientific article that was intended to explain to you the meaning of calling certain Hellenic tribes as 'barbaric' or even 'non-Greek'. The racism of the ancient Hellenes was cultural, not ethnic. But that makes your fairy tales collapse like a deck of cards so you carefully, or not, skipped it

And I’m trying to explain to you that because ONE modern historians THINKS so…doesn’t make it so. Barbarian…most historians agree…is a term referring primarily to LANGUAGE. Its not a cultural issue at all. The Macedonians were allowed to play in the Olympics long before Alexander…because culturally they were as advanced as the Greeks since they “westernized” long before. Yet they were still…barbarians.


Did your history teachers skip the part, where the inhabitants of Byzantium largely identified themselves as Graecoi

LOL…must have…Did the Arvant of Gjon Bua Shpata also consider themselves as “Graecoi”??

The term” Greek” or “Greci” didn’t come into existence until the Romans started calling these people as such….based on the name of a small Hellenic tribe which was the first the Romans came into contact with…the Greci. So the Greeks got their name in a similar fashion that the Albanians got their name…its just the name of one particular tribe.

[Shqiptari]

With the language? Is language the only thing that characterizes an ethnic group of people? Is this the best you can think of? I trully pitty your narrow mindness and unspeakable ignorance my poor man. By all means, start reading my sources just in case you manage one day to get out of darkness...


If I were to look at your face…ugly as it may be…what would I see to differentiate YOU a Greek…from say…most other white people in the world?? Almost nothing. And then when you open your mouth and that painful to listen to language of Greek comes out of your mouth….what would differentiate you from most white people in the world too?? YOUR LANGUAGE. 3000 years ago…that’s what people knew to differentiate each other…LANGUAGE…


And lets break this utterly stupid claim that today's Skopjan's are direct descendants of Alexander the Great, once and for good; because this is NOT how Skopjan official lips identify themselves. How can a fusion of Albanians, Bulgarians and Slavs be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians? Duh, i just killed a few thousand braincells...enjoy...

Of yor own braincells?? LOL.

Just to clarify…I didn’t claim any such nonsense as today’s Macedonians are descendetns of the ancient Macedonians...What I said is that even though they have almost nothing in common with the Ancient Macedonians…the same can be said about you Greeks of today. So what I said is…WHAT makes you more worthy to claim ancient cultures that makes the Slavic Macedonians to the same??



Shqiptary, i must not explain to you one by one what the excerpts you are supposed to have quoted actually mean, although i will elaborate a bit on the very well known propagandistc technique that the Skopjans, and apparently you, tend to use. Enjoy, i could never have explained it better:
Quote:
Distortion of the ancient history
The Slavic propaganda is often based on quotes from ancient historians (mainly Greek) who seem to suggest that Macedonia was a different nation. However:


These quotes usualy consist of one or two isolated lines which is misleading. Reading the whole document the meaning is completely different.
The translation is not accurate or some words have been carefully altered to change the meaning.

In this page we will present a number of "mis-interpreted" ancient quotes to prove how the Slavs exploit the ancient sources to dispute the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians.




Argument: "Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here using his own words, he clearly exclude the Macedonians from the Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians as Greeks."

Answer:
The text is wrongly translated. What Herodotus actually says in 7.130.3 is:
“This he said with regard in particular to the sons of Aleues, the Thessalians who were the first Greeks to surrender themselves to the king. Xerxes supposed that when they offered him friendship they spoke for the whole of their nation….”

The Thessalians were the first Greeks to surrender to the Persians NOT to come under Persian submission. This does not exclude the Macedonians from the Greeks as the Macedonians did not surrender to the Persians.

This is what the original Greek document says:

“oti protoi Hellenwn eontes Thessaloi edosan euoutous basilei” (= the first of the Greeks who gave up themselves to the king.)

Argument:"Dimosthenis said that the Macedonians were not Greek"

Answer:
This argument refers to the following quote from the Athenian statesman Dimosthenis (Dimosthenis, Third Philippic, 31)

These are not arguments I made at all….so whatever…lol


"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave"
This quote appears to accuse king Philippos of Macedonia as a non-Greek. However the majority of today's historians ascribe these claims to the political differences between Dimosthenis and King Philippos. It is well known that Dimosthenis as a passionate supporter of the Athenian democracy was very concerned about the rise of the Macedonan kingdom.

"Demosthenes' allegations were lent an appearance of credibility by the fact apparent to every observer, that the lifestyle of the Macedonians was different from that of a Greek city state. This alien way of life was however, common to the western Greeks in Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and their fundenmental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only as a consequencce of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the question ever raised at all."
[Proffesor M.Errington, "A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, Los Angeles, 1990]

"The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy,should not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of Macedonians, but as an expression of conflict between two different political systems: the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens) versus the monarchy (Kingdom of Macedonia). Personally, I believe that it is the common language, which gives one the opportunity to share a common civilization. Thus the language is the main factor that forms a national identity."
[Proffesor Nicholas Hammond, "Macedonian Echo" magazine, February 1993]

Also note that the quote does not suggest that the "Macedonians were not Greek" as the Slavs themselves wrongly assert, it only refers to king Philippos.

Ok good arguments…except not convincting ones…as they are by looking at ti from today’s point of view of “democratic system vs another system”. Who says that’s what Demosthenes was thinking?? Maybe he did mean exactly what he did say…they are Barbarians, not Greeks, not allied to Greece…maybe his words mean just what they say ;) Some modern historians put in today’s context of politics…which may not have been at all the context of thet time…so this is not argument against it at all.


Argument:"The Philotas trial - Alexander urges Philotas to speak in his native Macedonian language"

Answer:
Another argument they frequently use to prove that the Maceonian were speaking a different language is the so called 'Philotas incident' described by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus in the "The History of Alexander"

Alexander the Great speaks in front of the Macedones of his army: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."
Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."
Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language".
The Slavic propaganda claims that when Philotas started to speak in Greek Alexander asked him to use his "native Macedonian language". Even if we assume that this episode took place exactly like this, it is still very unclear. Curtius does not make any reference to any specific language. He doesn't refer to a "Macedonian language" at all. This is only an assumption made by the Slavs. There is absolutely no evidence to support this assumption - that Philotas' native language was the "Macedonian language" .
It would be more logical to suggest that Philotas started to speak in Persian (since they were in Persia and it would enable more people to understand... ) and Alexander asked him to speak in Greek - his native language.

Yet more unproven ASSUMPTIONS that this or that is what he MEANT to say.




Here is another account regarding their language:

Quote:
Argument:"The ancient historians refer to the Macedonian language as a separate language from the Greek"

Answer: This is typical example of ignorance about the Greek history. In fact there is no ancient document refering explicity to a "Macedonian language". All the ancient documents they quote referring to the "Macedonian language" use the term "Makedonisti" which of course does not mean a different language. It refers to the form of the Greek langauge spoken in Macedonia. Similarly there are ancient documents referring to the Greek dialect of Athens as "Attikisti" or the Greek dialect of Peloponisos as "Peloponisti" etc. Should we assume that there was an Athenian language from that, or that the Athenians were not Greek?

There is no evidence to suggest that Macedonian was Greek dialect either…so these are all assumptions. What we do know is that Macedonian is refered to as a separate language...ad they themselves as barbarians…by ancient Greek historians themselves. How you interpet them is your CHOICE. You have given SOME historians who agree with your point of view…and I will give you some more historians who agree with MY point of view.

And please spare us the idiotic “skopjans say this or that” argument. The world goes beyond your idiotic internet world…as I said read a book for once and you’ll see these arguments on the Macedoniasn go far beyound “Skopjans” and have been around since the time of Alexander…not something new ;)


Plus, you probably have no clue about the very latest study (2005: sorry no link yet but i am getting there), showing the Greeks are not Indoeuropean, but rather indigenous peoples that inhabited the place even before the Paleolithic period

Oh WOW!!! Amazing indeed!! So all the sotries of the Ancient Greeks themselves of when they came into theselands…and what they encountered…and the ruins which existed at a time when Athens was still a new city…and ALL the historians of the past 3000 years who assumed Hellens came in several waves from 2000 till 12000 BC…and ALL the linguists in the world who date Greek back to the ancient IE core…they were all wrong.

Again…I know when you read wikkipedia a lot…and you find some “thing”…some “study”…done by “someone”…than it is a great discovery for your brain since it probably the first thing youv read on actual paper in your life…it’s a big deal. The thing you need to understad though…is that there ae thousands of historians…with thousans of theories…and thousands of papers…on whatever issue….an dif you dig deep enough…you’ll dig up one or two lunatics who will write whatever they want. Personally…I follow what the more “aminstream” historians will say…and what the ancients said themselves.


Let me refresh our memories a bit and say that the word 'Makedonia' itself is as Greek as the word 'Athens'. Stems from 'Makos', an older version of length) that reflected the fact that the ancient, and not surprisingly, the modern Macedonians are tall. (Note that the original word was 'Makednoi So were they were speaking a COMPLETELY non-Greek language, yet they were defining themselves through a purely Greek word? What about the scripts that were found in Vergina that depict clearly phrases written in a distinct Greek dialect and whose links with 'Grammiki B' are beyond any reasonable debate?

LOL…first of all…as I’v lready told you…read some BOOKs. For example, Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that "Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!"

The word for Makedonia does not come from the Greek word for “tall”…lol…that’s ridiculous. I don’t know how you know the Macedonians were “tall” and therefore were called “tall people”…lol

The Macedonians…by their own accounts…by inscriptison on rocks found…were a tribe which came from the NORTH into that area around 800BC. They conquered he local inhabitants of the area…whoever they may have been…and it is natural to assume they mixed with whoever was there before them. Macedonia was essencially a MIX of many different people of the area. A heavy mix of Illyrians, Thracians, whoever these orignal “Macedonians” from the South were…and probably too…some sprinkle of Hellenic tribes as well. This was at best a mix of many people…probably seaking many dialects.

Paul Cartledge, professor of Greek History at Cambridge says there was a heavy Illyrian character in the Macedonian language…sotheing which according to him suggests that there was a very deep mix of people in the area.

Alexander himself spend most of his youth in Illyria…among his relatives from both his father’s side and his mother’s side…among the Triballi tribe. 'Demosthenes', he said, 'call me a boy while I was in Illyria and among the Triballi, and a youth when I was marching through Thessaly; I will show him I am a man by the time I reach the walls of Athens.” (Plutrach, p264)

Anyway, there are too many quotations from Ancient Greek historians to put here…In ALL of them…there is a distinction made between MACEDONIANs and HELLENS…Its not a distinction between Macedonians and Thessalians and Athenians and so forth…its he Hellens…and the Macedonians…clearly two different people. The Hellens are grouped all together…and it doesn’t differentiate based on politics or anything of the sort as some modern historians will claim. They are differentiated on being Hellens…and not. That’s it. SOME modern historians can interpret them in whatever way they want…but they’r pretty clear in themselves.

And as for language I’m not going to give you the mountains of quotations for many modern historians andligusts. All I will say is this…because I’v read BOOKS and aritlce on the issue from many sources and not just Wikkipedia…that linguists will agree that there isn’t enough of Macedonian that has survived to know much about it…and that the existence of Greek inscriptions doesn’t mean anything….since that would be the language they would have written in since they had no alphabet of their own. Greek inscriptions were common also in Illyria and Thracia…and that doesn’t mean Illyrians or Thracians were Greek…only that they had no written language of their own so they used Greek.


ANYWAY...the origin of the Macedonians isn't what I want to talk about or care much about...it has nothing to do with Albania and Albanians....


So an absolutely objective source does not suit you. Please provide me with another. Perhaps www.welovealbania.com or www.Greeksaremurderers.com

First of all...wikkipiedia isn't an absolutely objective site. Its an online encyclopedia that can be EDITED by ANYONE at ANY time. ALL th einfo there is info put in by various people...and anyone can edit them and put whatever versions they want on those pages. Its an objective site...its the most pathetic insult an encyclopedia ever made.

Secondly...this seems to be the problem with you Greeks...if someone ovjects to your point of view...they MUST be automatically haters of Greece, Skopjans, or whatever other insults you can come up with. Funny though considering the eintre world knows otherwsie and so does every toher historian...except those of Greece (and Serbia too).

The world is not black and white (or blue and white for that matter) and you better get used to understand that.


Ntw, I don't really care about the nationality of George or Gherj or whatever Skederbei. We have enough heroes. The thing is, heroes are to be remembered and put as an example, so when the time comes we will fight like them. I don't intend to fight over this matter anymore.

You don't throuw a piece of crap on the floor and say "I don't want to deal with this anymore". Sorry it doesn't work that way...

[Vorian]

First of all there’s no hellenization during the ROMAN period. Its called the ROMAN period…we know VERY WELL that ROMANIZATION occurred in some areas. Its simply put idiotic and pointless to keep bringing up this dead point. ROMANIZATION occurred in the largest cities of Illyricum…mainly Durrachium and Raguza. We know these things from the Romans. We also know from the Romans that most of the Illyrians were NOT Romanized…only the main cities along the Adriatic coast. The Dardanians for example with whom the Romans had close contacts with…were not Romanized. The more “unreachable” Illyrians in the mountains…barely had any contact with Roman civilization at all.


I am losing my patience. You f****** idiot, during the Roman era, the eastern part of the empire, was completely hellenised, while the west followed latin civilisation. If you failed to notice, modern Albania blongs to this part.
Secondly, I quote from wikipedia, because it's a fast and free way to find objective info about anything.
Thirdly, you haven't posted a single link to support your claims.
Last but not least, in wikipedia is mentioned the Illyrian origin of Albanians. I did a more extensive research in objective ,I repeat, sites and most researchers agree about the fact that Albanians do originate from Illyrians mainly with a mixture of Slavic and Greek(I don't care if you like it or not) origins. The majority of the sources claim that Scederbei was Albanian, so I will step down to this one and I apology (something your irrational, super-ethnicist views wouldn't allow you to do)

I also want to add, that your insults against me pissed me off. I don't care if you don't like my sources. Provide me with a better site with free info and I will be happy to visit it. Until then shut the **** up and post some links. Info without links to support them is completely uselless.

PS: I want to apologise to the rest members about this post. I have never used such language before nor I intend to use again. Unlike others, I try to keep discussions civilised and mature but some people just don't get it.

[Vorian]

First of all...wikkipiedia isn't an absolutely objective site. Its an online encyclopedia that can be EDITED by ANYONE at ANY time. ALL th einfo there is info put in by various people...and anyone can edit them and put whatever versions they want on those pages. Its an objective site...its the most pathetic insult an encyclopedia ever made.

Secondly...this seems to be the problem with you Greeks...if someone ovjects to your point of view...they MUST be automatically haters of Greece, Skopjans, or whatever other insults you can come up with. Funny though considering the eintre world knows otherwsie and so does every toher historian...except those of Greece (and Serbia too).

The world is not black and white (or blue and white for that matter) and you better get used to understand that.


That's why there are mods there. Btw, wikipedia has the same opinion with you about Albanian origins. So it isn't true, right?


Funny though considering the eintre world knows otherwsie and so does every toher historian...except those of Greece (and Serbia too).

What I find funny, is that in a strange coincidence, the two countries that oppose Albanian extremism, have a false sense of history. On the other hand, the citizen of a country that became democratic (in the wider sense of the word) quite recently, is a qualified historian and only his views are correct. Oh, and as for the rest of the world, I haven't heard anyone agreeing with you, if you exclude our dear friend Contra of course.

And I never mentioned that everyone who dissagree with greeks is a Greek-hater. You on the other hand, have proven to be one. All your posts are filled with bitter and anger against us. Have you posted in another thread anyway? It seems to me that you only post where Greece is involved, so that you can throw accusations and historical bull****.

Παιδιά κάντε τον να σκάσει, θα με πετάξουν από το Forum, αν συνεχίσει έτσι αυτός ο παπάρας. :)

[Greek soldier]

Vorian, just don't give a damn about him. The next thing I am going to hear is that univercities like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Stanford are not this objective and that the Greek propaganda is the reason many historians don't follow the "right" policy.

And about Wikipedia, there are terms for editing a text. E.g references and citations are OBLIGATORY!!

Με αλλά λόγια, άσ'τον να φωνάζει και απλά μην απαντάτε!!

[Inquisitor]

who cares,bosnia will get its new constitution.



ok now I am off

[achilles]

Oh my gosh Shqiptari, you have downgraded to a really juvenile level and you have yet to show us your sources that back up your undisputed historical claims...have you lost them all like it happened with your 'Platonic' sources? :lol:


If I were to look at your face…ugly as it may be…what would I see to differentiate YOU a Greek…from say…most other white people in the world?? Almost nothing. And then when you open your mouth and that painful to listen to language of Greek comes out of your mouth….what would differentiate you from most white people in the world too?? YOUR LANGUAGE. 3000 years ago…that’s what people knew to differentiate each other…LANGUAGE…

Hey look at that...i just hit a nerve...he is calling me ugly...by all evidence my argument is on the right track :lol:

Listen Professor...what i said, as opposed to your monolithic approach, was that language is not the only element that distinguishes an ethnic groups of people. Go back and reread my posts cause you are getting boring. You are making me repeat myself. If you are dealing with reading comprehension problems...well...that certainly isnt my fault, aint that so Pyrro? :lol: :lol:



Just to clarify…I didn’t claim any such nonsense as today’s Macedonians are descendetns of the ancient Macedonians...What I said is that even though they have almost nothing in common with the Ancient Macedonians…the same can be said about you Greeks of today. So what I said is…WHAT makes you more worthy to claim ancient cultures that makes the Slavic Macedonians to the same??

Are you reading my posts my poor man? I guess you are not...too bad for you cause i have answered thoroughly that question when i spoke about common language, religion etc etc....but you are so blind that nothing can get you straight.;)


These are not arguments I made at all….so whatever…lol

Hey LOLO...you have cherry picked quotes from ancient writers as to suit your silly little agenda...so whatever, indeed ;)


Ok good arguments…except not convincting ones…as they are by looking at ti from today’s point of view of “democratic system vs another system”. Who says that’s what Demosthenes was thinking?? Maybe he did mean exactly what he did say…they are Barbarians, not Greeks, not allied to Greece…maybe his words mean just what they say Some modern historians put in today’s context of politics…which may not have been at all the context of thet time…so this is not argument against it at all.

Last time i checked, 'good arguments', at least TEND to be 'convincing'...please purchase a dictionary my friend cause you are loosing control...dude, the remainder of this bit is so STUPID that i wont even comment on it. Trully its idiocy is obvious for everyone to relish...you know very little about the mentality and how much 'political beasts' the ancient Athenians were...thus you fail to grasp Demosthenes' mentality.

Maybe? Perhaps? What if? Is this where you base you BULL**** on? Poor thing...


Yet more unproven ASSUMPTIONS that this or that is what he MEANT to say.

Is that all you have to say? Are you running out of steam?;)

[achilles]

Aaaaaaaand here we go again....:lol:


There is no evidence to suggest that Macedonian was Greek dialect either…so these are all assumptions. What we do know is that Macedonian is refered to as a separate language...ad they themselves as barbarians…by ancient Greek historians themselves. How you interpet them is your CHOICE. You have given SOME historians who agree with your point of view…and I will give you some more historians who agree with MY point of view.

I know of no other serious historian or 'historian' apart from Harvard's Earnst Bandian, who gives a descent account of why ancient Macedonians MIGHT not have been Greek. His study though was published in 1980 (if i remember correctly) but further evidence has emerged ever since. Sadly, his work is largely based on cherry picking, something which is rather dissappointing for a historian of his magnitude. Some say that he was on FYROM's payroll...who knows? Want to read his article? It will certainly mend your broken mood :lol:

Plus, another answer that shoves up you thivk skull that the language of the Madedons was a Greek dialect, is Aristotle himself. He was from Stageira, Chalkidiki...ever heard of the place? Do you know where it might be? Correct...Macedonia (the Greeks that is cause there is only one). He is one of the most, if not the most, important ancient Greek philosopher and this is aknowledged by almost anyone with some reason inside the brain (so that rules you out automatically). He wrote everything he wrote in the Athenian and Macedonian dialects, two interalted Hellenic languages sharing the same core. PRECISELY like the Athenian and the Spartan dialect, or any other dialect spoken by the 230 ancient Hellenic tribes of the region.


And please spare us the idiotic “skopjans say this or that” argument. The world goes beyond your idiotic internet world…as I said read a book for once and you’ll see these arguments on the Macedoniasn go far beyound “Skopjans” and have been around since the time of Alexander…not something new ;)

:lol: :lol: Sinking....deep.


Oh WOW!!! Amazing indeed!! So all the sotries of the Ancient Greeks themselves of when they came into theselands…and what they encountered…and the ruins which existed at a time when Athens was still a new city…and ALL the historians of the past 3000 years who assumed Hellens came in several waves from 2000 till 12000 BC…and ALL the linguists in the world who date Greek back to the ancient IE core…they were all wrong.

Dude....you are stupid...and pissed...and you are not paying attention to what i say...so much i can do and please with my unwillngness to not repeat myself. You can always go back to my posts and find your answers, if you have the balls to admit anything, which you dont....you descentant of the Epirotes :lol:


Again…I know when you read wikkipedia a lot…and you find some “thing”…some “study”…done by “someone”…than it is a great discovery for your brain since it probably the first thing youv read on actual paper in your life…it’s a big deal.

Too many strong assumption about me again...sinking....deep. Probably? Maybe? :lol:


The thing you need to understad though…

Yes? Yes? what is it?????



is that there ae thousands of historians…with thousans of theories…and thousands of papers…on whatever issue….an dif you dig deep enough…you’ll dig up one or two lunatics who will write whatever they want. Personally…I follow what the more “aminstream” historians will say…and what the ancients said themselves.

Chop down those thousands trillion gazzilions of historian and papers and all that crap, man, cause you sure look like a complete idiot, as long as you have quoted ANYTHING yet, apart from those THOUSANDS books that you are supposed to have read.




LOL…first of all…as I’v lready told you…read some BOOKs. For example, Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that "Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!"

You know what? I will surprise you....Alexander the Great was basically from Peru. Everyone wants to make Alexander his own mate...i can understand the fact that you are desperate...and i am waiting for you to show what EXACTLY Woodthorpe said, or prompt me to his exact page and consolidate that this is what he actually meant. Boy, there is another task for you...


The word for Makedonia does not come from the Greek word for “tall”…lol…that’s ridiculous. I don’t know how you know the Macedonians were “tall” and therefore were called “tall people”…lol

I gave you the EXACT etymology...thick skull....and sinking...very deep.


The Macedonians…by their own accounts…by inscriptison on rocks found…were a tribe which came from the NORTH into that area around 800BC. They conquered he local inhabitants of the area…whoever they may have been…a

Too many whoevers, whatever and wherevers for my taste Skatiptari...sorry...but you are full of crap...you are making crap out of your not-so-bright mind in fact...i pitty you...


and it is natural to assume they mixed with whoever was there before them. Macedonia was essencially a MIX of many different people of the area. A heavy mix of Illyrians, Thracians, whoever these orignal “Macedonians” from the South were…and probably too…some sprinkle of Hellenic tribes as well. This was at best a mix of many people…probably seaking many dialects.

Ahhh ok...it must have been like that if you say so...you are not really inspired tonight are you Skatiptari?



Paul Cartledge, professor of Greek History at Cambridge says there was a heavy Illyrian character in the Macedonian language…sotheing which according to him suggests that there was a very deep mix of people in the area.

True, by all evidence there was an Illyrian character in the Macedonian language, due to them being neighbours which is more than natural. That does not make their language non-Greek though, is that so my ignorant Albanian friend?

And allow me to NOT cherry lick like you did and actually QUOTE Paul Cartledge's text, along with FULL bilbiographical referrence. From 'Ancient Greece', edited by Paul Cartledge, from the series 'Cambridge Illustrated history', published by Cambridge University Press in 1998. The paperback edition i have, was published 4 years later. This is taken from pages 52 and 53. Enjoy my ignorant and extremely blind Albanian friend:


...But whatever his (Philip's) son's motivation was, there is no doubt as to the outcome of Alexander's conquering acheivements, GREEK was being spoken as far east as Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Greek religion and culture had penetrated the Indian subcontinent. Nearer to home, Egypt and the Middle East were, with the exception of some parts of Palestine, firmly in Greek or hellenizing hands. This was the cultural world that captivated its eventual political conqueror, Rome, which in turn ensured that the Western heritage woule be ultimately Greek (see Epilogue).

So their language was not Greek, practically they had very few Greek elements in their culture, AND THEY SPREAD THE VERY ESSENCE OF THE FUKING HELLENIC CIVILIZATION AS FAR AS INDIA???

Go and check to door now to see if i am coming :lol:




Anyway, there are too many quotations from Ancient Greek historians to put here…In ALL of them…there is a distinction made between MACEDONIANs and HELLENS…Its not a distinction between Macedonians and Thessalians and Athenians and so forth…its he Hellens…and the Macedonians…clearly two different people.

That contradicts what Cartledge says, the very same Cartledge that you quoted MORON! :lol: :lol:


ANYWAY...the origin of the Macedonians isn't what I want to talk about or care much about...it has nothing to do with Albania and Albanians....

Thing is..you CANNOT really talk about the Macedonians cause you dont know **** about ****. ;) And THAT has been shown quite clearly...


Secondly...this seems to be the problem with you Greeks...if someone ovjects to your point of view...they MUST be automatically haters of Greece, Skopjans, or whatever other insults you can come up with. Funny though considering the eintre world knows otherwsie and so does every toher historian...except those of Greece (and Serbia too).

The entire world...yes...and the rest of the universe...residing to exaggerating aphorisms once more? :lol: I pitty you more...


The world is not black and white (or blue and white for that matter) and you better get used to understand that.

i will do my best to exploit your profanity and furnish my whole life with it...thanks...i am grateful :lol:


You don't throuw a piece of crap on the floor and say "I don't want to deal with this anymore". Sorry it doesn't work that way...

Whatever....

[Greek soldier]

Since Macedonians were not Greeks, should I assume that they were illegally participating in the Panhellenic Games?
Squiptary, why are you so against to Greek history? I mean, literally, ignorance is your real enemy. Grow up man

Achilles, be careful not to have a stroke and a heart attack at the same time!

Η αλήθεια είναι ότι οι Θεσσαλονικείς στο τέλος θα αγαπήσουν εμάς τους Αθηναίους...

[achilles]

Excuse me…”links” to Greek ultra-natinalist sites are not counted as “links” to prove anything. Gjon Kastrioti himself…the father of Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbe…has changed religions himself on about 5 different occasions. He made an alliance with the Venedict in 1407 as a catholic. Then he proclaimed himself Orthodox in 1419-1426 when he made an alliance with Stephan Lazarevic of Serbia…then he proclaimed himself a Muslim in 1430-1438 when he become an ally of Murat II…then from 1438 until his death he formed another alliance with the Venedict and become once more a Catholic and died as a Catholic.

Boy, was he reluctant to make up his mind or what,man? Can you give me the bibliography of the excerpt you are quoting? Seriously...


How do we know this?? Because unlike he idiotic websites you quote…

I quoted sites that quote DIRECTLY original texts of antiquity. One of them, i must say, describes with great accuracy the propagandizing technique that you, and other dear Balkan neighbours, use in order to boost your egos...look at what the website is all about and dont get stuck to what you want to make out of it.



ARBERESH!! That was the name the Albanains who emigrated to Italy right after hus death called themselves as. Do you undestand that?? If you want to play silly word games go ahead…you relalise as I explained it to you that there is no such thing as “Albanian” or “Albania”…that NAME is a western version of our name. At the time it was called Arberia….




What is not fairly easy for me to grasp is the lack of logic in your arguments..which is really disturbing.

What is disturging you is that you subconsciously, or even maybe consciously, realize that you cannot really form a coherent, valid argument, apart from wasting keystrokes.


You make up the completely ridiculous argument that the Arvaniti are “Doric Greeks”…

You are not reading my posts carefully man...you make baby Jesus cry...i said that THERE IS ONE THEORY ACCORDING TO WHICH THE ARVANITES ARE OF DORIC DESCENT. I neither ruled out, nor endorsed the theory.


and that Albanians in general are a “mix of Slavic and Greek”.

i hypothesized...do you understand the word 'hypothesize'? And believe me, i am not disturbing my sleeping cycle over where you are coming from.



Language has everything to do with it…because if we were flooded by Slavs and Greeks…then there should be substantial Slavic and Greek influence in the Albanian language. There is none.

And Greece has been occupied by practically everyone...how come our current language is Greek, and when properly spoken has no foreign elements? See what a moron you are? As you said...LOGIC...what you say prooves nothing.


There’s a little thing called lingustics…and many linguists have determined that Albanian as a language is unrelated to any other language in the world…and was perhaps the FIRST to split off from the main IE family of languages some 8,000 years ago…followed a couple of thousand years later by Greek. The origin of Albanian are a “moot point” only to people who read Wikkipedia for their information.

Get you mind off Wikipedia and manage to substantiate what you say by using sources. If you were a little less of a ****head you would have noticed that Wikipedia is a relatively good source and includes bibliography at the end of the text. Where are you sources?


As for our connection to Illyrians…it is pretty straight foreward. EVERY word or name known from Illyrian…has a direct and understandable translation and understanding in Albanian. That is not coincidental. It has so in no other language. And furthermore there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Albanian was present in any other region…left traces in any other region and so forth.

Again...i am not saying that you have nothing to do with the Illyrians...but this is again a moot point for reason i, and Vorian if i recall correctly, already explained. Please dont sound like a broken record repeating the same things over and over again...


It doesn’t take a degree in nuclear physics to understand the relation there…but it does take more than Wikkipedia I’m afraid.

'Wikipedia is crap'...the foundation of Shqiptari's argumentation...i pitty you even more...


First of all there’s no hellenization during the ROMAN period. Its called the ROMAN period…we know VERY WELL that ROMANIZATION occurred in some areas. Its simply put idiotic and pointless to keep bringing up this dead point. ROMANIZATION occurred in the largest cities of Illyricum…mainly Durrachium and Raguza. We know these things from the Romans. We also know from the Romans that most of the Illyrians were NOT Romanized…only the main cities along the Adriatic coast. The Dardanians for example with whom the Romans had close contacts with…were not Romanized. The more “unreachable” Illyrians in the mountains…barely had any contact with Roman civilization at all.

This utterly moronic bit granded you the characterization that Greeksoldier decorated you with. I will refrain from commenting to assertions that 'there was no Hellenization during the Roman period'. Rome, my poor little ignorant, friend endorsed so much Hellenism that you will ever know. I am not bragging, its what it really happened and i am not saying that the Romans should not be credited with a magnificent civilization that has its distinct elements. You dont know how much i pitty you...and your ignorance...



In the Byzantine period…the OPPOSITE happened. More like Byzantium was “Albanized” than anything else. This was the time when Gjon Bua Shpata led the migrations of Albanians into the Peloponesus…and we know these Albanans remained as Albanians well after the fall of Byzantium. So if the Byzantines couldn’t “Hellenize” people living in the heartland of Greece…how could they “Hellenize” people living in the areas further North where the rule of Byzantium was NEVER strong enough to even rule these people…let alone “Hellenize” them…when these lands were taken away from the Byzantines more times than they even ruled them…by various princes and nobles and Normans and various barbaric invasions whoever happened to invade the area every 10 years or so. The Byzantines were in no position to Hellenize anyone…and never did.

pssssst....you are so ignorant you really make me laugh. History lesson time:

These names give witness to the composite nature of Byzantium. It was, without any doubt, the continuation of the Roman state, and until the seventh century, preserved the basic structures of Late Roman Mediterranean civic culture: - a large multi-ethnic Christian state, based on a network of urban centers, and defended by a mobile specialized army. After the Arab/Muslim conquest of Egypt and Syria, the nature of the state and culture was transformed. Byzantium became much more a Greek state [perhaps best seen in the emperor Heraklios' adoption of the Greek title Basileus], all the cities except Constantinople faded away to small fortified centers, and the military organization of the empire came to be based on a series of local armies. There is then a persistent ambiguity about the beginning of Byzantine history - between the building of Constantinople by Constantine I and the mid-7th century collapse of late antique urban culture.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/byzantium/
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1c.html

Thus, Constantine laid the foundations for the Byzantine -- or East Roman -- empire which, at its greatest extent in the sixth century, stretched from southern Spain in the West to the borders of Sassanian Iran in the East. [b]This spectacularly diverse combination of ethnic groups, languages, cults, and creeds was bound together by a Greco-Roman economic, political and cultural matrix.[b/]
http://www.umich.edu/~kelseydb/Exhibits/Byzantium/Introduction.html
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/MUHLBERGER/ORB/LT-ATEST.HTM
http://www.archaeolink.com/byzantine_civilization.htm
http://www.new-byzantium.org/greece28.html

The Later Roman Empire, known as Byzantium, upheld the Christian Greco-Roman traditions of the ancient world and remained the most powerful and splendid medieval society until the 13th century. Its politics and culture have an intrinsic interest, but also contributed mightily to later Slavic culture and to the Latin west. The course will examine the ability of the Empire periodically to renew itself from 325 to 1453. In doing so, we shall not overlook the artistic, musical and literary achievement of Byzantine civilization and the heritage of Byzantium in later cultures.
http://www.unf.edu/classes/byzantium/

Did that hurt? I feel like beating a dead horse...now SHOW ME WHO SAYS THAT BYZANTIUM WAS ALBANIZED AS IF THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS 'ALBANIA' BACK THEN AND AS IF YOU HAD ANYTHING TO INFLUENCE IT WITH......i am waiting for sources, bibliography and a decent argument by you...

Or you can respect yourself more, seize posting the crap you are posting and start cleansing your brain of all the grease, by reasing the following:

Mango, Cyril, ed. The Oxford History of Byzantium. New York: Oxford University Press, 2002. ISBN: 0198140983
This is a new book, and the first in many years to cover the entire period of Byzantine culture with up to date scholarship.

Angold, Michael. The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204: A Political History. 2d ed. New York: Addison Wesley Longman, 1997. ISBN: 0582294681[quote]



[quote]You may have “no doubt”…but that’s because you’r ignorant. Byzantine rule was weak at best in these areas. The area was ruled more often by Norman princes and so forth than by Byzantium…ad when Byzantium ruled…it ruled through its proxy princes…like the Kastrioti for example. You can’t “Hellenize” an area you can’t even control. Period. There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that there was even the slightest “Hellenization” of any of these areas. Even in the areas that fell under Byzantium…a large number of people remained either Catholic or Uniat…which was a group that called for the unification of the two churches. Byzantium couldn’t even control the religions of these people well enough.

You are on the verge of paranoia, my friend...you need help. Take a look at what i posted above and then PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR WHAT YOU CLAIM APART FROM YOUR PERSONAL HALLUCINATIONS....i am waiting...or not wait...nevermind :lol:



As I already said…Albanian is the name westerners gave us. The name of Albania at the time was ARBERIA…the Albanians who left Albania following Skenderbe’s death…or prior to it as well…are called Arberesh, Arvanit…and so forth…all with the ROOT word ARB. ARB…or ARBA…is what later become “ALB and ALBA” in western languages to describe us. To prove the “link between Arbanasi and Albanian” doesn’t take a degree in rocket science…

You sure beat me to it...:lol: You should go to Oxford and teach history...like IMMEDIATELY.



and I ALREADY did…you just forgot about it or it went over your head. As I said…their name, their location, the history of how they came to become the most influential tribe in the region and so forth…is all pretty self-explanatory…maybe not to someone who rad Wikkipedia…but as I said read a bookfor once instead of internet trash.

You keep repeating the following two: 'read a book' and 'wikipedia sucks'...that does not enhance any of your pseudoarguments my poor ingorant Albanian friend...you have no idea how much i pitty you.


Allow me to give you a lesson…

You have no idea how grateful i am...what would i do without you? Probably die in darkness...

so you may know where words of your own language come from. Neither Shpata nor “Spatha” are Albanian nor Greek. They are LATIN words…from the Latin of SPADA…which means Sword. Both our languages borrowed such words from Latin during the period of Roman rule of region ?

You probably missed the part where Latin stems basically from Greek and Etruscan....watch out...cause it will hurt:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/greek/

A considerable amount of Greek vocabulary was accessible to the Latin Middle Ages through the bilingual glossaries which had been handed down from the schools of antiquity and which even contained some idioms.
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Walter_Berschin_14.html

Latin was influenced by Celtic dialects in northern Italy, by the non-Indo-European Etruscan language in central Italy, and by Greek, which was spoken in southern Italy as early as the 8th century bc. Under the influence of the Greek language and its literature, which was first translated into Latin in the second half of the 3rd century bc, Latin gradually developed into a great literary tongue.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761551959/Latin_Language.html

So now you might have a hint on how much Greek influenced Latin and not so much the other way around. Having said that...all you posted i crap.

The ancient Greek word 'Σπαθί' (Spathi)says it all...and dont tell me that we took this from your Illyrian ancestors ok Pyrro? Please? :lol:

And you have no clue how many other Greek words you use and you dont know about it..



Understand??

Yup....i dont know about you :lol:

[achilles]

Achilles, be careful not to have a stroke and a heart attack at the same time!

Its been a long time since i last witnessed such a MASSIVE distortion of history man...those guys know what their ultranationalist regimes have been telling them ever since the beggining of the 20th century. They needed a new version of history in order to obtain some sort of historical/cultural identity. They base their very own egos, οn stealing OUR history. This is how pathetic they are. Not all of them, of course, but the few poor creatures like Shqiptari...the true descendant of Pyrros the Epirot. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Η αλήθεια είναι ότι οι Θεσσαλονικείς στο τέλος θα αγαπήσουν εμάς τους Αθηναίους...

Εγώ πάντως είμαι Μακεδόνας που τυχαίνει να ζώ στην χαβούζα ρε χαμουτζή :lol:

[Greek soldier]

So, Spada is Latin??? Thus, I assume the same applies with Aspide, Lancia, Macelaio and ... the show must go on!!

Later you will tell us that Kannun (to us Greeks vendetta or ksekatharisma) is Albanian word!


There was no Hellenization during Roman periods? Then I also assume that the marbles throughout modern Rome are... pure Roman and that Latin are... pure Etruscan!

Whoever understands Greek, read this please

http://www.koutouzis.gr/megali+ellada.htm

It says that "Albania" was located somewhere near Armenia and Georgia and its capital was Kabaha. This area was destroyed by the Romans (good boys...) in the 1st century A.D and a huge flow went to Illyria.

PS: Και ο Μελάς χαμουτζής ήταν αλλά πολέμησε για την ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ! Πάντως θα ήθελα να φύγω από το Αθηναϊκή (Νεοσμυρνιότικη) ζούγκλα, δεν αντέχω άλλο!! Η Χαλκιδική είναι ό,τι πρέπει!!!!

[achilles]

They are LATIN words…from the Latin of SPADA…which means Sword. Both our languages borrowed such words from Latin during the period of Roman rule of region ?

And just to show what a clown you are, take a look at all the different latin words that were being used for 'Sword'. 'SPADA' is clearly one more of your on-the-spot inventions, just because you are so DESPERATE in replying to my justified posts, even if you have to post BS. Enjoy...
According to the University of Notre Dame:

sword
capulus -i m. (1) [a coffin]. (2) [a handle];esp. [the hilt of a sword].
chalybs -ybis m. [steel]; an article made of steel such as [a sword , a horse's bit, the tip of an arrow].

cingulum -i n. [a girdle , sword-belt].

destringo -stringere -strinxi -strictum (1) [to strip]; esp. [to draw or bare] a sword. Transf. , [to satirize, censure]. (2) [to touch lightly, graze]. Hence partic. destrictus -a -um, [severe].

digladior -ari dep. [to flourish the sword; to fight , struggle fiercely]; in words, [to dispute].

dolo (2) or dolon -onis m. (1) [a pike , sword-stick]. (2) [a small foresail].

ensifer -fera -ferum [sword-bearing].

ensiger -gera -gerum [sword-bearing].

ensis -is m. [sword].

ferrum -i n. [iron]; hence [any iron instrument; plow , axe, scissors, and esp. sword].

gladius -i m. [sword].

harpe -es f. [a curved sword , scimitar].

machaera -ae f. [a sword].

mucro -onis m. [a sharp point or edge; a sword].

secutor -oris m. [a gladiator armed with sword and shield].

spatha -ae f. [a broad two-edged sword].

xiphias -ae m. [swordfish].
http://www.nd.edu/~archives/latin.htm

Where is SPADA my poor man? :lol:

EXACTLY as i said: SPATHA...from the ancient Greek 'Σπάθα' that was being used long before the Romans came in contact with the Hellenic world.

Or XIPHIAS from, again, the ancient Greek 'Ξιφίας', standing for 'swordfish'. 'Ξίφος' is the most common word in our classical literature to describe any 'sword' of medium or large size, though the large ones were being referred to as 'Spathes'.

Even today we say 'ξίφος'. One of the ancient Greek words that were not altered. Or 'σπαθί', instead of 'σπάθα' (spathi instead of spatha that is...)

If you need to know more...just ask...dont be ashamed....unless you can back your crap.

Listen man...i have had enough of your ignorance and i have wasted way too much time trying to proove the obvious...that you are extremely brainwashed and confronted with serious inferiority complexes. I can thank any God you like, for the fact that the Albanians i know would most likely SPIT YOU right in your face for being the ignorant moron you are...


Achilles over and out...i will only reply to people who have a minimal knowledge of history, or at least the decency to ASK whenever they dont know.

Cheers!

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

That's why there are mods there. Btw, wikipedia has the same opinion with you about Albanian origins. So it isn't true, right?



What I find funny, is that in a strange coincidence, the two countries that oppose Albanian extremism, have a false sense of history. On the other hand, the citizen of a country that became democratic (in the wider sense of the word) quite recently, is a qualified historian and only his views are correct. Oh, and as for the rest of the world, I haven't heard anyone agreeing with you, if you exclude our dear friend Contra of course.

And I never mentioned that everyone who dissagree with greeks is a Greek-hater. You on the other hand, have proven to be one. All your posts are filled with bitter and anger against us. Have you posted in another thread anyway? It seems to me that you only post where Greece is involved, so that you can throw accusations and historical bull****.

Παιδιά κάντε τον να σκάσει, θα με πετάξουν από το Forum, αν συνεχίσει έτσι αυτός ο παπάρας. :)

Relax guys! Squiptary as well some other that you going to meat are very capable to post propagand that many times they dont even believe it!!

Το θέμα είναι να τους ξεγυμνώνουμε ώστε όλοι να βλέπουν την γύμνια των "επιχειρημάτων" τους!

[walford]

...so long as people in the region continue to wallow in the past, the misery of your forefathers will be foisted upon your children.Thats probably one of your most unfortunate comments on these boards, walford...oh well, we all have our moments of glory and decadence now, dont we? ;)


Or at least before residing to minimally thought aphorisms like the one quoted above, you could elaborate on what this 'misery' is all about.I shall illustrate with a sub-plot from a recent movie. A beautiful American teen of Greek descent visits her ancestral fishing village. She begins to court with a handsome young man. Her grandparents find out and threaten to disown her because the grandfather is nursing a decades-old dispute over fish with the young man's grandfather. Her innocent romance is considered a betrayal of the entire family. The ending is unimportant.

Such disputes [in which the children are expected to carry the hatred into perpetuity] have been played out between families, tribes and nations since recorded history began -- and likely before.

Perhaps we should pursue the maturity to get past this.

The point that I was making about coming from the same place and then becoming re-united again is that we are all brothers. If we decide to embrace our similarities rather than attempting to perpetuate ancient disputes [which fester everywhere, but especially in the Balkans], we may survive and even prosper. Otherwise this cancer threatens to engulf all mankind.

This thread illustrates in microcosm the futility of arguing [ad nauseum in minute detail] over who has the 'correct' heritage and who has the rightful claim over scraps of land over which blood has been spilled for millennia.

[And BTW, I will not be baited into defending/accepting American blame for the situation there. You know very well that there would be plenty of hatred there no matter what we did. I still hold to my assessment at the time that Europe should have intervened early to stop the bloodshed subsequent to the fall of communism. They shamefully did not, so our current President's foreign-policy-inept predecessor finally decided to 'do something.' The results were consequent to the fact that he typically directed his actions from fear, laziness and political calculation. That is why we failed in Somalia (http://www.netnomad.com/powell.html) and why 9/11 was planned under his watch.]