Greek President leaves Albania after provocations [Archive]

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PELASGOS

11-01-2005, 04:12 PM

He was supposed to meet his Albanian counterpart but a group of

demonstrators stormed the area outside the meeting site shouting for

'Chameria' as they call the Greek Hepirus region. They demand return of their

houses and their properties which were confiscated after WW2 becouse of

their collaboration with Germany and Italy. Many were court martialed by

military tribunals for war crimes against Greek population in Hepirus.

DEMARCHE TO ALBANIA ON THE CANCELLATION OF THE MEETING OF THE PRESIDENTS OF GREECE AND ALBANIA
Athens, 1 November 2005 (17:17 UTC+2)

Such behaviours do not contribute to the mutual effort for the continuous improvement of bilateral relations and to Albania's European prospect, stresses the Hellenic Republic Presidency Office in a statement issued on the occasion of the incidents in Sarante that led to the cancellation of the scheduled meeting of Hellenic Republic President Karolos Papoulias with his Albanian counterpart Alfred Moisiu.

In the relevant statement it is stressed that the Hellenic Republic Presidency expresses regret for the cancellation of the scheduled for today informal meeting of the Presidents of Greece and Albania after the unacceptable behavior of extremist elements who insist in promoting non existent issues.

Meanwhile, Greece's ambassador to Tirana received the order to make a strong protest demarche as soon as the incidents recorded during President Papoulias' visit to Albania were made known.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos stressed that the Albanian authorities did not take the necessary measures for an unobstructed meeting between President Papoulias and his Albanian counterpart in Sarante. In addition, the necessary measures were not taken aimed at discouraging the known extremist elements who in their efforts to hinder the smooth progress of bilateral relations insist in promoting unacceptable non existent issues at a time when Albania tries to make steps toward the fulfillment of its European prospect.

The Hellenic Republic President has already returned to Greece

achilles

11-02-2005, 08:14 AM

Good. And may he never return until they contain their extremist elements.

PELASGOS

11-02-2005, 07:41 PM

Good. And may he never return until they contain their extremist elements.

They should contain their parliament first becouse this is official policy.

The Albanians understand only by slapping- Slobodan Milosevic:)

SerbPVO

11-02-2005, 09:08 PM

Why did he even go to this silly "country"?

achilles

11-03-2005, 08:51 AM

I dont think its fair to call Albania a 'silly' country, irrespective of how much there are things we dont like about it. Its an underdeveloped country struggling to get to the surface. True, education, mentalities and standards of living still have a long way to go but they seem to be working on it.

It would be best if they abandoned their 'expansionist' utopic visions of the 'Greater Albania' cause it promotes nothing fruitful. It can never happen whatsoever.

PELASGOS

11-03-2005, 03:54 PM

Why did he even go to this silly "country"?

He was returning a visit of the Albanian president .

Shqiptari

11-04-2005, 06:40 AM

Good. And may he never return until they contain their extremist elements.

50 old men with plackards are indeed a dangerous extremist element...may he never retrun indeed.

They should contain their parliament first becouse this is official policy.

And you know this...HOW??

The Albanians understand only by slapping- Slobodan Milosevic:-)

Guess who is having his butt-cheeks slapped around in a jailhouse in Hague...hehe

Why did he even go to this silly "country"?

Because the "Serbia Great Adventure" rollercoaster ride was closed down for repairs...

dont think its fair to call Albania a 'silly' country, irrespective of how much there are things we dont like about it.

You don't like us???

It would be best if they abandoned their 'expansionist' utopic visions of the 'Greater Albania' cause it promotes nothing fruitful. It can never happen whatsoever.

Oh...you know it...we can't help ourselves...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4397470.stm

Albania protest halts Greek visit

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40972000/jpg/_40972306_protest_story_ap.jpg The Chams say they were badly treated by Greece

Greek President Karolos Papoulias has cut short a visit to neighbour Albania, after a minority group's protest which Athens described as disruptive.
Up to 200 demonstrators from the Albanian Muslim Cham clan gathered outside a hotel where Mr Papoulias was due to meet counterpart Alfred Moisiu.
The Greek foreign ministry said Albania had not taken steps to ensure a trouble-free meeting.
Albania said the protest was peaceful and Greece's decision unjustified.
"We express our deep regret after this hasty and unexplained decision of the Greek delegation, based on misinformation despite assurances given by the Albanian side," said presidential spokesman Aferdita Sokoli.
'Unacceptable issues'
The two presidents were due to meet in the southern Albanian town of Sarande, opposite the Greek island of Corfu, on Tuesday afternoon.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif

But Mr Papoulias waited at a Greek consulate in another town, Gjirokaster, after hearing about the protest, and left for home when demonstrators failed to disperse.
"The Albanian authorities... did not take measures to deter known extreme elements, who in their effort to block the smooth development of the countries' ties present unacceptable, non-existent issues at a time when Albania is taking steps towards completing its European expectations," a Greek foreign ministry statement said.
Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say. They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953.
The demonstrators, carrying banners reading "We want justice" and "Stop the indifference", were demanding compensation for or restitution of properties confiscated by the Greek government. "We want basic rights. That is our land, our property. We thank the Albanian people for keeping us until now but we want to be back at our land," demonstrator Rexhep Ceno told AP news agency. Albanian officials and local media said the demonstration was peaceful and under police control.

Hmm...evil Albanians...look at the threatening demenour of that 6 year old boy!! Obviously he is an extremist ultra-nationalist element that "stormed" the building!!

Look...if you guys can't handle a peaceful demonstration of 200 old men and little kids...what kind of a "democracy" are you then?? We are a democracy...we let people demonstrate if they want to...and they did...There's nothing wrong with it...nor is there anything "disruptive" with it.

If you rpresident is bothered by the sight of some demonstrators outside his window...well...as you said...may he never return.

Shqiptari

11-04-2005, 06:54 AM

Hell...this is the stuff you do when people visit your country

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/528012.stm

And you complain that 200 old men were holding signs peacefully. :bash:

achilles

11-04-2005, 07:03 AM

Hell...this is the stuff you do when people visit your country

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/528012.stm

And you complain that 200 old men were holding signs peacefully. :bash:

Let me tell you this...those people were protesting against Clinton's decision to bomb the hell out of Serbian people...fair enough isnt it?

Now the comment that 'this is the stuff we do when people visit my country' is just another fine demo of your complexes...any more of these moronic generilizations and you will certainly qualify for my dickhead list.

Oh, and we complain cause we have very little tolerance towards Albanian ****...simple?

Shqiptari

11-04-2005, 07:25 AM

Now the comment that 'this is the stuff we do when people visit my country' is just another fine demo of your complexes...any more of these moronic generilizations and you will certainly qualify for my dickhead list.

Ok....lol

Oh, and we complain cause we have very little tolerance towards Albanian ****...simple?

Keep complaining...what do I care...lol

Vorian

11-04-2005, 01:18 PM

Geez, this person doesn't know how to keep his mouth shut.

Kontra1

11-04-2005, 01:27 PM

Ok....lol

Keep complaining...what do I care...lol

LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned...and he will too..he's got a buddy among the mods.

Kontra1

Vorian

11-04-2005, 01:31 PM

LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned ;)

Kontra1

Yeah, the Greeks in this forum have a cope with the mods and ban every user who "dares to tell the truth about the Greek attrocities". Keep up the good work mods.

I wonder why nobody believes you...wait..I found it! Cause the things our Albanian friend says, are less believable than the UFO conspiraces.

Kontra1

11-04-2005, 01:37 PM

Yeah, the Greeks in this forum have a cope with the mods and ban every user who "dares to tell the truth about the Greek attrocities". Keep up the good work mods.

I wonder why nobody believes you...wait..I found it! Cause the things our Albanian friend says, are less believable than the UFO conspiraces.

Hah...there is enough ppl here that believes me dude...don't you worry about that.

They're just worried about ending up in the "greek dickhead list" by showing support.Look how the Shqiptari is being treated since his first supportive post about the Turks.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60140

Kontra1

Shqiptari

11-04-2005, 02:51 PM

Little Johnny

11-04-2005, 03:46 PM

What Greek atrocities? Greece is in Nato and the EU. These organizations would of kicked Greece out if it had committed atrocities. :|

PELASGOS

11-04-2005, 04:01 PM

Not a word about the Albanian collaboration with Axis powers in WW2.

Then they entered the commie side. Always the wrong choice. Milosevic is in

Hague because of politics. That is why the US deny the founding of an

international criminal court. Do you know that the stuff of Hague prosecutor

includes active agents of FBI and U.S intelligence ? How many Serb

civilians were killed by NATO and by UCK? Albanians are currently guinea pigs

for criminologists due to their criminal behaviour.

achilles

11-04-2005, 04:28 PM

LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned...and he will too..he's got a buddy among the mods.

Kontra1

Again with the same old crap, kardas? Nothing new to say?;)

You should keep in mind that you offend the mods by posting your hallucinating crap...now please expose something about my country...i am already trembling...:lol:

achilles

11-04-2005, 06:27 PM

Well if this forum bans bepople for having a discussion on something they don't agree on...then maybe this forum isn't worth being in.

For your own sake dont believe Kontra's **** Shqiptari. His ass still hurts from the continuous shafting he has gone through with everyone he debated with, and now he is making up stories about me 'having a buddy among the mods'...this is how far he can get.

And from what i have seen this forum bans assholes for being...assholes;)

walford

11-04-2005, 07:29 PM

I don't have an axe to grind here -- and am certainly not MP.net's favorite son -- but when you make a habit of posting pics of guys holding aloft severed heads saying that the same will happen to your nemesis unless his mother provides sufficient sexual services...Well...

It was amazing to many on the outside how soon after the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact collapsed, real or imagined offenses that were committed 2 generations earlier flared up into indiscriminate bloodshed almost immediately.Being a foreign policy student, I would like to learn more about why the inter-Balkan/East European/Russian/Turkish hatred runs so deep.

Perhaps all of you might consider citing references and discussing them rather than embarassing yourselves with the personal attacks. Some of you might consider the possibility that you have been raised w/a considerable amount of biased education/news that may require supplemental info and reconsideration.

Let us please learn more about this important region. Consider it an opportunity.

Vorian

11-05-2005, 05:41 AM

Vorian

11-05-2005, 05:52 AM

I'm not particularly interested in convincing anyone in this forum of anything...Greek attrocities, ethnic cleansing and megalomania are well documented and well known...certainly not in Greece though...but you ask anyone who lives anywhere near Greece and you'll see. Well Greeks know it too...they just can't admitt it...

I don't really need to say a hell of a lot about a country that threatens to invade another country becasue they don't like their flag...

But...thansk to our Turkish friends...things are kept in check a bit

Ignorance....well I should answer cause you piss me off.

Greek attrocities, ethnic cleansing
Find a source which describes such incidents. Ethnic cleansing was commited by Turks in Asia minor and Constantinople. On the other hand, the muslim minority in Thrace lives under the protection of the state, completely free.
Not to mention the armed gangs that attacked Greeks in southern Albania to prevent them from voting.
megalomania

If you mean our pride for our history nobody can blame us for that.

you ask anyone who lives anywhere near Greece and you'll see.

Yeah, ask the Turks and the Albanians and you will get a fair and true answer about what's happening.

I don't really need to say a hell of a lot about a country that threatens to invade another country becasue they don't like their flag...
I guess you mean FYROM. We protested diplomaticaly against their flag in which appeared the star of Vergina and about the name Macedonia. No threats about invasions were made. The only threat against that country is the Albanian extremists. people like you.

PS: A friend of mine is an Albanian who lives in Greece. I showed him your posts. He began to laugh but gradually he got angry and ashamed 'cause your views and ideas, really ashame the Albanian nation.

achilles

11-05-2005, 06:17 AM

achilles

11-05-2005, 06:21 AM

Vorian dont bother too much, man...our Albanian friend, who perceives the Turks as a stabilizing power in the region :lol:, apparently is not the brightest and sure has huge deficits in terms of historical knowledge.

Vorian

11-05-2005, 06:34 AM

Yeah, I am not going to write anymore in this topic, unless we get back to the subject

Kontra1

11-05-2005, 09:58 AM

Ignorance....well I should answer cause you piss me off.

Find a source which describes such incidents. Ethnic cleansing was commited by Turks in Asia minor and Constantinople. On the other hand, the muslim minority in Thrace lives under the protection of the state, completely free.
Not to mention the armed gangs that attacked Greeks in southern Albania to prevent them from voting.

If you mean our pride for our history nobody can blame us for that.

Yeah, ask the Turks and the Albanians and you will get a fair and true answer about what's happening.

I guess you mean FYROM. We protested diplomaticaly against their flag in which appeared the star of Vergina and about the name Macedonia. No threats about invasions were made. The only threat against that country is the Albanian extremists. people like you.

Oh man...isn't there exists a single greek who knows their history correct? I went over this with your friends on this board before...and now you.

In the previous article (part V) I covered the period 1903 to 1913 including the Young Turk uprising and the first and second Balkan wars.

In this article (part VI) I will cover the effects of Macedonia's partition and the practices and policies of its subjugators.

The jubilance of liberation died down quickly as the fires of burning villages lit the night skies. Macedonia was in flames again, liberators turned to occupiers and rained havoc on the Macedonian population. The political, economic and ethnic unity of Macedonia was no more. Greek soldiers who came to liberate their Christian brothers from the oppressive Turks and terrible Bulgarians were now burning, torturing, and murdering people. In the words of Sir Edmond Grey, "the Balkan war began as a war of liberation, became rapidly a war of annexation, and has ended as a war of extermination"(Page 294, Vasil Bogov, Macedonian Revelation, Historical Documents Rock and Shatter Modern Political Ideology).

The Greek atrocities were revealed to the world when a lost mailbag was discovered containing letters from Greek soldiers in Macedonia to their families in Greece. The mailbag was turned in to the Carnegie Relief Commission and the contents of the letters were made public. Expecting to fight for the glory of the fatherland, the soldiers instead, found themselves torturing, murdering, burning houses and evicting women and children from their homes in a most vile way. The letters revealed that the soldiers were acting on direct orders from the Greek authorities and the Greek king himself.

November 2002
By Risto Stefov

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov10.html

Soon after arriving victorious in Greece, Venizelos in a speech in Solun, announced his plans for a "Greater Greece" (Megali Idea) and for the bringing of all "Greek peoples" together under a single Greater Greek State.

I remember as a child listening to old men in my village, sitting on the porch telling tales of bygone wars when as young soldiers they chased the Turks to Ankara yelling "two Turks to a bayonet". They also told stories of how it took them sixty days to gain sixty miles and how they lost them in one day of retreat. I didn't understand what they were talking about then but they were talking about the Greek exploits in Asia Minor. As I mentioned earlier, after building up a large military presence in Asia Minor, a major offensive was launched in March 1921, and by the end of the summer, the Greek armies reached the Sakarya River about forty miles from Ankara.

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov10.html

Kontra1

Kontra1

11-05-2005, 02:47 PM

^^^True. The Balkan region is so complex that it would take more than a few good books to get started. Yet, i could point out a few points of distinct importance.

---The peninsula is a huge crossroad. Way too many ethnic groups lived, fought, died, settled in for good here. The beaty of the landscape along with the Hellenic Civilization is what made the place a magnet for almost everyone else to come here and claim a piece of Balkan land. This mixture of diverse people was bound to spark conflict, even between peoples belonging to the same ethnic group.
---The Ottoman rule. The Ottoman carcinogenic presence in the region for at least 400 years, maintained the broader region in a relatively primitive condition (compared to Western Europe that is), that 'favoured' some, but devastated others. Note, that it is the Ottoman presence that introduced Islam in the region, thankfully not at a large scale. This contributed to the accummulation of more hatred between those who opposed the Ottoman cancer, and those who appear to have benefited from them. (an example of that can be Serbia and the Bosnian Muslims.)

Typical lousy looser approach and typical greek...hiding the facts behind the "Turko/Ottomanphobia and Islamophobia" curtain.

Those who are willing to "buy" it will always do so, but those who are willing to learn something will always listen or read.

After all...who would buy the bs behind the Cyprus history and believe that 18% Turks were to etnically cleanse the 78% greeks on the island...I guess same people that belives the other historical bs you've been spreading around.

CHRISTIANS AND JEWS IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE
The Functioning of a Plural Society
EDITED BY BENJAMIN BRAUDE AND BERNARD LEWIS

VOLUME I THE CENTRAL LANDS

HOLMES & MEIER PUBLISHERS, INC. NEW YORK LONDON

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=52272246

The Ottoman Turks were Muslims. While the sultans who ran the empire were acknowledged as the legal successors of Mohammad, they did not impose Islamic law on non-Muslims. The Ottoman Turks allowed Christians, Jews, and people of other faiths to practice their beliefs in peace. Arabs, Persians, Kurds, Maronites, and Armenians all maintained strong cultural identities within the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.mrdowling.com/608-ottoman.html

---The Genocides induced by the Young Turk regime and Moustafa Kemal Ataturk, primarily against the Armenians and Pontian Greeks. This is also known as the 'Christian Holocaust', an organized attempt by the collapsing Ottoman empire/newly created state of 'Turkey' to glue its pieces together.

You call it whatever you want....for us, it was the war of existence.It was a war against the occupiers and their collabrators of my country.Just like your war against the Ottomans...wait, they were muslims and deserved to be butchered and after all, when you attacked Turkey, you were only taking your "old country" back after 500 years ;)

It took a whole year and a half for the Allies to agree on what to do with Turkey. They unveiled the final document, the Treaty of Sevres, in May of 1920. Most of the Turkish homeland, the Anatolian peninsula, would have to be left to the Turks, of course, but President Wilson felt that the Armenians deserved a state of their own in the northeast. In addition, the French wanted the land next to their Syrian mandate (Cilicia), and the Zone of the Straits was declared an international area, where only Allied troops could be stationed. Finally, the Allies rewarded the Greeks richly for their small participation in World War I: they got all of Turkey-in-Europe except Constantinople, and an unspecified amount of land around Smyrna. To nobody's surprise, the sultan signed it and Kemal rejected it. Kemal did not miss the loss of the Arab lands, but under no circumstances would he give anything to the Greeks, traditional enemies of the Turks. However, the Greeks had been expecting that and had already transferred the bulk of their army to Smyrna. At the beginning of 1921 they launched an offensive, pushing eastward almost effortlessly.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/Venizelos.jpg

A Greek propaganda poster shows how much of Turkey the Greeks expected to get after World War I. Had these boundaries gone into effect, Greece would have gained all the land that belonged to the Byzantine Empire in the late thirteenth century, before the Ottoman Empire got started (see Chapter 12). A picture of the Greek prime minister, Eleutherios Venizelos, appears in the top left corner.

Kemal now found himself facing enemies in every direction, while he was hard pressed just to clothe his troops (he required every home to supply a kit of underwear, socks and shoes). He survived because of successful diplomacy on the eastern and southern fronts. Italy and the new Soviet Union gave him aid, and while he had to give most of Transcaucasia to the Soviets, he did get to keep the Kars region of Armenia. That gave him a free hand to eliminate the Armenian separatists--there would be no Armenian state while he had any say in the matter! To the south, the French were concerned about their Syrian problem and purchased Kemal's neutrality by handing over Cilicia to him.
Meanwhile in the west, the Greeks were coming closer, advancing two-thirds of the way to Angora before they were stopped. But stopped they were, on the banks of the Sakarya river. There, late in the summer of 1921, Greeks and Turks battled along a sixty-mile front for twenty-two days and nights. Kemal's tactic was to divide his army into individual units, each operating independently of the others, so that there was no Turkish line of defense to break. "There is no linear defense," he explained. "There is a surface defense, and the surface is the entire territory of the nation." Fighting for their lives and country, the Turks wore down the Greeks, and by the end of the year the scales had tipped Kemal's way.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/ne15.html#Sakarya

---The presence of many 'allien' elements in the broader region of Macedonia. This, throughout the years, has sparked a very deep hatred among everybody claiming that Macedonia is his, i.e. The Bulgarians, some Albanians, and this mixture of Slavs/Turks/Bulgarians/Albanians/Greeks who identify themselves as 'Macedonians'...FYROM (or Skopje) that is.

---World War II. Put in a very simplistic fashion, it further divided the region between those who collaborated with Hitler and those who fought him. The prime collaborators were the Croats, Bosnians and a good part of the Albanians.

The Turkish role is ambiguous yet two things are for sure: they didnt oppose him and they sure provided him with a valuable substance: chromium.

the only chronium factory in the country was owned bey a Jewish person ;)

Turkey in WWII

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/turkey.html

---During the post-war period there are various events/conditions that sustained the deep hatred of the region. Tito's rule in conjuction with the broader status of 'cold war', the ever lasting Greco-Turkish conflicts, the Turkish operation 'ATTILA' that ethnically cleansed N.Cyprus,

Ah yes...preventing the ethnic clensing of the Turkish Cypriots on the island. Again, hiding the truth behind the Turko/Ottoman/Islamophobia curtain and hoping ppl to think "well..the Turks must have done it...if they haven't, they deserve it anyways"(referring to 500 years old history) ;)

Many thinks the Cyprus conflict started with the invasion of the N.Cyprus by the Turks(in order to intervene the ethic cleansing of the Turkish minority),but the events had started long ago.

We simply can't do anything with the ppl who has fixed views of the conflicts, but we will always provide the info about the truth,knowing there are also ppl who are seeking to hear what others has to say...esp third parties.

Here is the conflict from the British and peace keeping troops' perspective.

*Please read*

When will we see the full picture?

By David Carter with, former UNFICYP Staff Sergeant Robert Alftan of Finland.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/MACEY/macey.html

and the collapse of 'Yugoslavia' that lead to incidents like the Srebrenica massacre, the Croat attrocities against Serbian civilians and the rest are more or less known.

Ah yes...that's too more or less known

Kontra1

Atlantic Friend

11-05-2005, 02:56 PM

What Greek atrocities? Greece is in Nato and the EU. These organizations would of kicked Greece out if it had committed atrocities. :|

Well, Greece was entirely ostracized and nearly kicked out of the EEC when it was led by the militray junta.

Vorian

11-05-2005, 03:22 PM

I said I wouldn't bother answering but...my friend Kontra, the first site you provide is a Scopian site. it is natural to write whatever they want. This is why I have never posted anything from Greek sites. If you want us to believe you,find some outside info and show it.
Btw, speaking about Balkan history, take a look http://www.hri.org/docs/inter/96-04-04.doc.html

PS: Yeah, I don't know history. Actually I don't know your side of history.
I am ashamed but I haven't heard anything about the 16 Turkish empires :) :) LoL

And about Greater Greece, these are plans of the past. We just want to live in peace and prosperity but we are not allowed by our turkish friends. Instead of strengthening our economy, we invest billions on aircrafts and tanks. Sad but true.

Vorian

11-05-2005, 03:24 PM

Well, Greece was entirely ostracized and nearly kicked out of the EEC when it was led by the militray junta.

The military regime of that period, was not supported by the population and hunted down thousand Greek citizens. Plus, it was supported by US. Strange isn't it?

Kontra1

11-05-2005, 04:19 PM

I said I wouldn't bother answering but...my friend Kontra, the first site you provide is a Scopian site. it is natural to write whatever they want.

You mean a Macedonian site.Don't you think they should have a voice in a matter concerning them? All these facts were unknown untill they recently got their own voice to tell it.

Maybe this is why you deniy them a recognition as Macedonians.

Oh Btw..the link you provided (HR.Net) IS a greek site ;)

But this isn't...

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/MACEY/macey.html

Kontra1

achilles

11-05-2005, 04:59 PM

Kontra, i am sorry to tell you that you are a dead brain my man...way too settled in, misinformed and brainwashed. Your bitching has become so tiresome that i wont bother answering this time. You are obviously way too desperate in trying to make a true jewel out of your void Ottoman 'empire'...;)...and your Turkiye heaven on earth...how is Norway doing those days BTW?

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/Venizelos.jpg

^^^Now this made me shed a tear....duh...sooner or later....;)

:lol:

Vorian

11-05-2005, 05:19 PM

Kontra the link doesn't work. Find another or correct it plz.

Kontra1

11-05-2005, 05:36 PM

Kontra the link doesn't work. Find another or correct it plz.

I will pm it to anyone who's interested in seeing it ;)

Kontra1

Vorian

11-05-2005, 05:41 PM

Pm me I am curious. I wonder what did you come up with. maybe another theory that depicts us as murdering, bloodthirsty demons, ready to slaughter innocents?

achilles

11-05-2005, 05:49 PM

Pm me I am curious. I wonder what did you come up with. maybe another theory that depicts us as murdering, bloodthirsty demons, ready to slaughter innocents?

Hey dont forget to check this one out as well:

http://www.greekmurderers.net/

:lol:

Hey, Kontra...Vorian is telling you that the link does not work and it does not work indeed. Why is it so difficult to understand that you are not intimidating anyone and you are perceived more as a clown rather than a threat?

Fix the link...must be entertaining...

Kontra1

11-05-2005, 05:56 PM

It's working :)

achilles

11-05-2005, 06:35 PM

It's working :)

Thats because you fixed it ;)

Interesting...two Brits suspected to be killed by Greek Cypriots. Plus, info on unjustified killings committed by GC's against TC civilians...we have been through that before...and the point is? The Brits should keep their mouths shut when the discussion comes to Cyprus, and in any case your link does not change the fact that you were pretty happy you found the right pretext to blatantly invade the island, ethnically cleanse its Northern part, and sustain your very own people in misery and completely detached from the island's European route ever since 1974. Not to mention all the looting, destroying and abuse on the archaelogical heritage of the turf you still occupy. I still dont get under which reasonable criteria 18% of the island's populace occupies almost 40% of the land.

walford

11-05-2005, 06:52 PM

OK, I have a few observations to offer as an outsider.

Apparently, there was a high-level meeting between Greek and Albanian officials which was attended by a reportedly peaceful demonstration that did not disrupt the meeting. The Greek president had ‘heard’ about the protest concerning what he called “unacceptable, non-existent issues.”

The issues in question are Albanian demands to have lands seized after WWII because of alleged collaboration with the NAZIs returned. There seems to be little acknowledgement on the Albanians’ part of this collaboration and not much more desire on the Greeks’ part to consider whether such wholesale guilt merits review.

In the back-and-forth exchanges in this thread, the fact that the Albanian protest was peaceful was emphasized, noting that a Greek one when against Clinton turned violent. This violence was characterized as justified, given that the issue was American bombing of Serbia.

Various citations of evidence were offered and rejected, demonstrating that it is difficult to find objective, dispassionate accounts of past or present from that part of the world.

I did not entertain the side discussions about Turkish vs. Greek aggression/genocide. Further, the following bits of inflammatory rhetoric – no matter what the context – seemed to detract from the exchange of information.

The Albanians understand only by slapping- Slobodan MilosevicWhy did he even go to this silly "country"?...the comment that 'this is the stuff we do when people visit my country' is just another fine demo of your complexes...any more of these moronic generilizations and you will certainly qualify for my dickhead list.
Oh, and we complain cause we have very little tolerance towards Albanian ****...simple?LOL! Be careful exposing **** about his country man. He'll start calling you all kinds of names and he'll even threaten to get you banned...and he will too..he's got a buddy among the mods.I wonder why nobody believes you...wait..I found it! Cause the things our Albanian friend says, are less believable than the UFO conspiraces.Greek attrocities, ethnic cleansing and megalomania are well documented and well known...certainly not in Greece though...but you ask anyone who lives anywhere near Greece and you'll see. Well Greeks know it too...they just can't admitt it...Albanians are currently guinea pigs for criminologists due to their criminal behaviour.You should keep in mind that you offend the mods by posting your hallucinating crap...now please expose something about my country...i am already trembling...

For your own sake dont believe Kontra's **** Shqiptari. His ass still hurts from the continuous shafting he has gone through with everyone he debated with, and now he is making up stories about me 'having a buddy among the mods'...this is how far he can get.

And from what i have seen this forum bans assholes for being...assholesgnorance....well I should answer cause you piss me off.

A friend of mine is an Albanian who lives in Greece. I showed him your posts. He began to laugh but gradually he got angry and ashamed 'cause your views and ideas, really ashame the Albanian nation....our Albanian friend, who perceives the Turks as a stabilizing power in the region , apparently is not the brightest and sure has huge deficits in terms of historical knowledge. Oh man...isn't there exists a single greek who knows their history correct?

Typical lousy looser approach and typical greek...hiding the facts behind the "Turko/Ottomanphobia and Islamophobia" curtain. Those who are willing to "buy" it will always do so, but those who are willing to learn something will always listen or read.i am sorry to tell you that you are a dead brain my man...way too settled in, misinformed and brainwashed. Your bitching has become so tiresome that i wont bother answering this time. You are obviously way too desperate in trying to make a true jewel out of your void Ottoman 'empire'...Given that I have been known to lash out -- when provoked with personal attacks -- I claim no purity in getting nasty. But in this and other discussions about the region, what is considered a ‘provocation’ seems to be making certain claims with which one does not agree.

I do not mean to be pedantic, but observing such exchanges illustrates why it is understandable that some outsiders may wish to wash their hands of this region altogether and simply stand back and watch you savage each other while we shake our heads – and be glad we’re not involved.

I intend to continue learning about this and would entreat each of you to try to cut back upon the vinegar so that the rest of us can benefit – and perhaps some solutions be found. The Albanian issue doesn’t seem so impossible, but to cancel a high-level diplomatic exchange over a protest seems to be a bit of an over-reaction.

If American leaders canceled meetings even if violent protests were ongoing, we would be howled at as sissies.

achilles

11-05-2005, 07:40 PM

I intend to continue learning about this and would entreat each of you to try to cut back upon the vinegar so that the rest of us can benefit – and perhaps some solutions be found. The Albanian issue doesn’t seem so impossible, but to cancel a high-level diplomatic exchange over a protest seems to be a bit of an over-reaction.

The necessary prerequisite to 'cut back upon the vinegar' is for certain users to contain their persistent habbit of jumping into threads in order to post provocative 'sources' and 'comments' about 'Macedonia', 'Greek attrocities' and display at the same time an unspeakable denial, bias and lack of any decent self-criticism. We have even seen genocides being baptized as 'legitimate stuggles for self-existence'. This leaves me no space for constructive talk, at least with certain cocroach-like individuals...

To the point: the cancelation of the specific visit was not an over-reaction. In effect, we couldnt care less about a bunch of Albanocams waving signs, yet we do care about sending a solid message to the newly elected Albanian government: that Greece, as of now, has zero tolerance towards the elevation of, indeed, non existent issues. The Cams used to live in the perfecture of Thesprotia and were big landowners. Their cooperation with the Turks (playing the role of Trojan horse) as well as with the Nazis, forced Greece to expel them back to where they belong...Albania. Their dreams of taking back 'their' lands and 'their' property on Greek soil will remain as already described...dreams.

Plus, the cancelation in scope also took place in order to serve purposes of 'domestic consumption'. Greeks begin to realize that their governments do not really have an independent voice in terms of foreign policy so actions like this one might help boosting our hurt moral a little bit.;)

Note also that just today the Greek PM, cancelled his scheduled visit to Ankara due to the continuously provocative behaviour of Turkey, which usually chooses to violate the Greek FIR more than 50 times per day right before bilateral contacts take place. In the streets, this is called 'bullying'.

If American leaders canceled meetings even if violent protests were ongoing, we would be howled at as sissies.

Thats because you are the top dog, unlike Greece.

walford

11-05-2005, 08:17 PM

If American leaders canceled meetings even if violent protests were ongoing, we would be howled at as sissies.Thats because you are the top dog, unlike Greece.For problems to be resolved peacefully, consistent, fair standards are required -- including discussion over an issue that you'd just as soon see dead and buried.

I'm sure when firefighter (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=7262) discovers this thread, all will be straightened out.

achilles

11-05-2005, 08:43 PM

I am sure the bollock shocker is somewhere near, lurking like a stoat :lol:

Sadly, when he shows up, he aint gonna be the same good old FFFTM we all used to know and appreciate...

Isnt that so you sons of the bitch pissing bastard morons, whose mama's have were been penetrated by hunderds of malnutritioned Albanian goats?:bash:

Kontra1

11-05-2005, 10:45 PM

Interesting...two Brits suspected to be killed by Greek Cypriots. Plus, info on unjustified killings committed by GC's against TC civilians...we have been through that before...and the point is?

I don't think you've used the link I provided..it's not the Brits',it's the former Finnish peace keeper's observations that counts.

Read it again. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/MACEY/macey.html

The Brits should keep their mouths shut when the discussion comes to Cyprus, and in any case your link does not change the fact that you were pretty happy you found the right pretext to blatantly invade the island, ethnically cleanse its Northern part, and sustain your very own people in misery and completely detached from the island's European route ever since 1974. Not to mention all the looting, destroying and abuse on the archaelogical heritage of the turf you still occupy. I still dont get under which reasonable criteria 18% of the island's populace occupies almost 40% of the land.

Well... the truth contridicts with your bs you've been spreading around for the last 30 some yerars...doesn't it ;)

The Greeks started to butchering the Turks in '63,we reacted in '74...that doesn't sound like exactly "taking an advantage of the situation" does it?

completely detached from the island's European route ever since 1974.

Well..it stopped the butchering of the Turks on the island..didn't it? Something NATO choosed to do in the Balkans decades later and it worked...oh wait..you don't approve that either..do you? massacares should've went on.

Kontra1

Kontra1

11-05-2005, 11:11 PM

The necessary prerequisite to 'cut back upon the vinegar' is for certain users to contain their persistent habbit of jumping into threads in order to post provocative 'sources' and 'comments' about 'Macedonia', 'Greek attrocities' and display at the same time an unspeakable denial, bias and lack of any decent self-criticism. We have even seen genocides being baptized as 'legitimate stuggles for self-existence'. This leaves me no space for constructive talk, at least with certain cocroach-like individuals...

It's pretty abvious that you get irritated by anyone who opposes your stories and start calling them names( I can see in other threads also). I think it's your self denial attitude that should be questioned here.

...and Macedonia is officially recognized by it's constitutional name by Turkey...so ther IS absolutelly nothing wrong calling her that by me.

To the point: the cancelation of the specific visit was not an over-reaction. In effect, we couldnt care less about a bunch of Albanocams waving signs, yet we do care about sending a solid message to the newly elected Albanian government: that Greece, as of now, has zero tolerance towards the elevation of, indeed, non existent issues. The Cams used to live in the perfecture of Thesprotia and were big landowners. Their cooperation with the Turks (playing the role of Trojan horse) as well as with the Nazis, forced Greece to expel them back to where they belong...Albania. Their dreams of taking back 'their' lands and 'their' property on Greek soil will remain as already described...dreams.

Plus, the cancelation in scope also took place in order to serve purposes of 'domestic consumption'. Greeks begin to realize that their governments do not really have an independent voice in terms of foreign policy so actions like this one might help boosting our hurt moral a little bit.;)

Note also that just today the Greek PM, cancelled his scheduled visit to Ankara due to the continuously provocative behaviour of Turkey, which usually chooses to violate the Greek FIR more than 50 times per day right before bilateral contacts take place. In the streets, this is called 'bullying'.

Another example of your bs you've been spreading around for years now, but ppl doesn't know your closest island is ONLY 7 miles away from the Turkish mainland and you want to extend the int'l FIR fom 6 to 12 miles...why don't you tell ppl that too ;)

Of course we won't let you..are you so goddamn naive to expect we will?

Kontra1

walford

11-05-2005, 11:39 PM

So I am told that the complexity of the Balkans is too vast for one thread, but we cannot resist injecting the marginally relevant Cyprus issue into the discussion of the discord between the Greeks and Albanians.

Getting back to that, upon reflection it does seem very difficult. It is difficult to find any objective historical accounts that lead to the present-day situation. This Hepirus/Çameria dispute seems to have deeper roots, but came to a head when the Turks lost control of the area during WWI. Albanians complain that they had lived in this area for some time and it was ‘annexed’ by Greece.

My guess is that these Albanians likely inhabited the area consequent to earlier Ottoman expansion, given that many are Muslim. Insofar as their support for the NAZIs, this seems murky. The Turks officially were neutral, but there were stories of collaboration and resistance. Likely it was the same for the Albanians as well.

There are several questions, then. Was every Albanian man woman and child guilty of collaborating with the NAZIs? That’s doubtful. However, another question is, were the Çams who are agitating to have their property returned even alive when this happened? In other words, is this another version of the Palestinians ‘right of return’ in which anyone related to those who voluntarily left or expelled entitled to land that has been occupied and developed by others for more than 2 generations?

Below are examples of the widely divergent views I found on the subject. They are extremely passionate and I take them with a grain of salt, but was able to form a synthesis of what likely happened from these sources.

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/Turks-save-Jews.htm
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0406d&L=albanews&D=0&P=5017
http://www.englishforums.com/English/TakeALookAtCameria/bwzk/Post.htm
http://www.almiyachts.com/Towns/ionian_sea/ipirus/hepirus.html
http://www.blythe.org/peru-pcp/newflag/nf0402/albania.htm
http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks26/28October/28October.html

achilles

11-06-2005, 07:36 AM

I don't think you've used the link I provided..it's not the Brits',it's the former Finnish peace keeper's observations that counts.

The website is British from top to bottom and that's what i was referrring to. I am sure that more websites of the like will pop up like mushrooms, the more Cyprus opposes the US/UK devised Annan plan that is specifically tailored to serve the interests of the TCs/UK/US.

Well... the truth contridicts with your bs you've been spreading around for the last 30 some yerars...doesn't it ;)

The truth? YOUR truth? :lol: The truth is that you illegally invaded a Greek-Cypriot island, endowed with a significant Turkish CYpriot community, kicked GCs out of their homes and ethnically cleansed the Northern part. Eventually you handed over 40% of the island to 18% of the people, who you also maintain in misery due to your incompetence in taking economic advantage of the BEST part of the island. The same is the case with Imvros and Tenedos. You were saing about bull****?

The Greeks started to butchering the Turks in '63,we reacted in '74...that doesn't sound like exactly "taking an advantage of the situation" does it?

So the time lag makes it a humanitarian intervetion and not a blatant invasion? Is this how stupid you can be?
You invaded when it suited you....it is PRECISELY because of the time lag that you were waiting for the right moment to fullfill your imperialist dreams and grab a chunk of Cyprus. If it were a rescue operation you would invade in '63-64' or 65'. How come benevolent Turkey standed a 10 year continuous mayhem? Was it because you are so much in fond of the diplomatic route of resolving disputes? :lol:

Well..it stopped the butchering of the Turks on the island..didn't it? Something NATO choosed to do in the Balkans decades later and it worked...oh wait..you don't approve that either..do you? massacares should've went on.

It stopped the butchering? No the extremist elements of EOKA B could have been stopped through other ways. BUt that did not suit your expansionist plans. Yoo LOVED the fact that some GC attacked civilians. You were longing for an excuse.

Your invasion simply oppressed, and still does, both TCs and GCs and keeps almost half of the island 50 years back. Geez, man, TCs cross the borders in order to work. Thanks to the fact that you turned a land full of resources into a military ****hole and nothing more. Carcinogenic presence once more.

Tell us what you made out of Imvros and Tenedos (apart from confiscating and looting Greek property), two beautiful Aegean islands that have nothing to be jealous of Mykonos, Paros and Naksos in terms of natural beauty. Last time i checked there were a couple of goats eating grass there. What is wrong with you guys?;)

In any case, i think walford is right and we should stick to the Greek-Albanian theme of this thread. You can always start a new thread on Cyprus and show us what a bunch of monsters the Greeks are once more...

achilles

11-06-2005, 07:45 AM

Another example of your bs you've been spreading around for years now, but ppl doesn't know your closest island is ONLY 7 miles away from the Turkish mainland and you want to extend the int'l FIR fom 6 to 12 miles...why don't you tell ppl that too ;)

Of course we won't let you..are you so goddamn naive to expect we will?

Kontra1

Are you so god damn stupid to speak about 6 and / 12 miles, when your planes fly over the middle of the Aegean?? What does your military oligarchy
tell you on that one, kardas? That you are intercepting Greek Mirage-2000s and you pilots get carried away a little bit? ;)

I have told you before, that there can be exceptions for the islands that are very close to your coastline, and we agreed.

None of what you say change the fact that you are still provoking, bullying and trying to show 'who is the boss' in the area, in violation of every international rule that dictates borders, FIR and limits of national waters.

Things will change though...you want to become 'European';)

Shqiptari

11-06-2005, 07:47 AM

Perhaps all of you might consider citing references and discussing them rather than embarassing yourselves with the personal attacks. Some of you might consider the possibility that you have been raised w/a considerable amount of biased education/news that may require supplemental info and reconsideration.

You see that is impossible!! The universe ends at our borders...each of our borders...and everything we read in our history classes comes down directly from God. Thats the truth and that is it...and if you disgaree...we WILL kill you...

Of course I'm joking...and I agree 100% with you. Thats what I want to do...have an OBJECTIVE discussion for once...but Iv found out over and over that that is absolutely impossible. There's not even the slightest possibility in anyone's mind that they may be wrong...BUT...I will try to provide you with some info...to the best of my abilities...

Getting back to that, upon reflection it does seem very difficult. It is difficult to find any objective historical accounts that lead to the present-day situation. This Hepirus/Çameria dispute seems to have deeper roots, but came to a head when the Turks lost control of the area during WWI. Albanians complain that they had lived in this area for some time and it was ‘annexed’ by Greece.

My guess is that these Albanians likely inhabited the area consequent to earlier Ottoman expansion, given that many are Muslim

Epirus and Cameria are two different issues and two different regions. Cameria is a part of Epirus. Epirus in general is a geographical region which stretches from Southern Albania all the way to Arta in today's Greece.

The Greeks claim Epirus mainly...or rather only...on a historical claim to an ancient people who lived there...the Epiriots. The Epiriots were made up of several tribes, like the Molossi and Chaoni. This was in ancient antiquity. The Greeks claim the Epiriots were a "Greek" people...and therefore since in ancient times this area was inhabited by Greeks...it is therefore Greek today as well. MANY others...including Albanians and many historians...claim the Epiriots were not Greeks but Illyrians...ie the predecesors of the Albanians.

In my opinion...they were not Greek at all but Illyrians...but the Greeks did establish colonies on the coast of the Epiriots land...as the Greeks established colonies all over the Mediterranean...and the fact that the Epiriots lacking an alphabet of their own (like the Illyrians(, used the Greek alphabet to write their language. This causes SOME historians to think they were Greeks becasue they wrote in such an alphabet and had a similar style of architecture and such...but thats like saying Vietnamese are French becasue they write in a Latin alphabet and buld in western-style architecture. The fact of the matter is Greek culture and written language penetrated many of the areas of the Medtierranean...but that didn't mean these people were Greeks. In fact the Greek colonies were expelled from Epirus by the year 400 BC or so.

Now...all that is ancient history. What is know is that by the Middle Ages Epirus was considered universally as part of Albania. The official title of Scenderbe...the guy on my avatar...was King of Epirus. He himself claimed direct descendence from Pirro of Epir. Either way little is known about the period before the Middle Ages and as to what the epople who lived there were...no one in those times cared to classify people on those basis. But by the early middle ages this area was inhabited by Albanians...and this was WAY before the Ottomans ever appeared. By the 1300s there was also a huge wave of Albanian migration coming down from the North from the areas where the Serbs were advancing (Kosova and many other areas whcih today are Serbian). These people were invited by the Byzantines to come and settle in wat they called largly uninhabited lands in the Peloponesus and so forth....to the point that Albanians made up a huge chunk of the total population of the entire area we call Greece today...in the 1300s this is. These 1300 migrants however settled in the Peoloponesus and many of the Aegean islands.

Most of these people are not Muslims at all...and being Muslim has nothing to do with when these people came or not. Conversion to Islam didn't really start in large numbers until the 1700s anyway. In Southern Albania it is about half and half...the Cams themselves were half and half...and most of the Albanians in the Peloponesus and other areas of Greece were Christians. Now...the Albanians in the Peloponesus and other areas of Greece...called Arvanites...sided with the Greeks during their war of independence and provided the Greeks with their best and most famous fighters. The traditional "Greek" costume worn by the Greek honor guards...the fustanella and everything...is actually the costume of the Arvanites...which was adopted by the Greeks following the war as a sign of respect for these fighters. By that time Albanians made up about 30% of the total population of the land which then was Greece. The original idea before the war...was the creation of a state where 50% of the deputies in parliament would be Albanian and 50% Greek. Those ideas quickly ended after the war...and over the years the Albanian identity of the Arvanites was fought and eliminated...mainly due to the use of the Greek Orthodox Church. It did take more than 2 centuries though to completely estinguish the Arvanites in Greece as a separate people...and even today there is still a trickle of people who still speak Arvanitika (an archaic dialect of Albanian). I'v been told by people who have been to Greece and have gone to some villages in these areas...you still find many old people will reply to you in Albanian if you speak to them in Albanian.

Now...besides these Arvanites...who were assimilated "peacefully" from the 1800s on...and by the time of WW1 they had mostly dissapeared (though there was an incident when Greece tried to land Marines near Vlora...the Marines were Arvanitas...and they deserted and refused to fight their Albanian brothers). There were also several hundred thousand Muslim Albanians left over throughout Greece. In 1912 Greece invaded part of the area they call "Epirus"...which back then was part of the Villayet of Janina. Janina was the biggest city in what was then the 4 villayets of Albania. In the 1800s it was ruled by a man named Ali Pasha Tepelena...an Albanian...who was called in the west "The Muslim Bonapart" Now according to the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1901...the 4 Villayets of Albania contained about 100,000 people of Greek ethnicity. This means they did comprise a substantial minority in the Villayet of Janina...but a small minority nonetheless. The Greeks in that time were concentrated mainly aroud the city of Janina...around the city of Gjirokastra...and a small sprinkle along the Ionian coast in some remote vilages. The reason for this demographic spread was that Ali Pasha Tepelena had essencially declared his own independent state out of the Villayet of Janina. He was in the bad habit of fighting against many of the local Albanian lords as well...especially the Suliots...so he couldn't trust his own Albanians to protect him. So he invited Greek farmers to come and settle around his strongholds in order to defend him better. Yanina and Gjirokastra were his two main centers...this is why the Greek minority was concentrated around these areas. The Greeks on the Ionian Coast were fishermen from Corfu who saild on the other side and decided to settle sometime in the 1800s...unrelated to this.

The res of this area was inhabited mostly by Albanians. In 1912-1914 the Greek invaded this area. Greek claims were to all of Southern Albania. The census of the Yanina Villayet I have read gives the number of Albanians in the Villayet as around 500,000...split almost evenly between Muslims and Christians...plus slightly less than 100,000 Greeks...and several tens of thousands of Vlachs and Jews. The Greeks claimed this entire area as their own. By 1914 they had invaded this entire area...creating about 300,000 refugees who were expelled from their lands...most of them permanently becasue their lands would soon fall in the new Greek state. They were eventually forced out of what is today Southern Albania...but the bulk of the Yanina Villayet was permanently lost. Most of the Albanians living there were expelled...never to return. Most of these keep in mind were Christian Albanian.

A large number of the remianing Muslim Albanians were expelled to Turkey in the 1920s and 30s as part of their population exchange. The Greeks considered everyone who was Muslim as a "Turk"...and therefore send many thousands of Albanians to Turkey.

The Cams in the area of Cameria...were the only Albanians who seemd to have been spared. They were under harsh treatment and managment with many fo their rights denied and so forth. They were not "rich landowners" as some Greeks describe them as. They were meager peasants. They weren't all Muslims either...but divided as most Albanians in the South almost half-half. The real persecution started in 1940 prior to the Italian war when 4,000 Albanian men from Cameria were taken by the Greeks to concentration camps in some Aegean islands. When the Italian invasion came...the Camerian Albanians declared their loyalty to Greece and asked to be organized and armed to fight the Italians. The Greek government refused. Eventually Greece was invaded by the Germans. The region of Cameria was given to Albania...then an Italian puppet state. As they dd in every country they invaded...INCLUDING GREECE...the Axis established a puppet regime complete with a pupet administration and a puppet police. The same happened in Cameria of course. This was the extent of the "collaboration" the Camerians had with the Germans or Italians...essencially the SAME level of collaboration that the Greekes themselves had. There were no attrocities or massacres or crimes against Greeks or anything of the sort that Greeks claim. Cameria was a region inahbited 97% by Albanians prior to 1944...there were no Greeks there to begin with for anyone to hassle with.

Of course EVERY country and people had collaborators. So its ridiculous to say Camerians collaborated...when they did no more than Greeks themselves did. Instead...Camerians were the first to organize resistance movements to the Germans. Some of the first Albanian partizan units to be formed were formed in Cameria. Later on when the Greek communists started operating in the area...Cams were organized in Partizan units of that movement. The agreement between the Greek Communists and the Greek Monarchsts was that Greece was to be divided into zones for each of these two groups. Cameria went to the Greek Communists. In 1944 however Napoleon Zerva broke that agreement and attacked Cameria. The Albanian units in the Greek partizans were the only defending units in the area. They fought back and asked for assistance from the Greek Communists. That assistance came to late. Zerva's forces massacred several thousand civilians in the area, expelled several tens of thousands, caused wide-spread destruction and loss of property and put in jails thousands of Albanians who resisted them. The Greek Communists finally managed to kick Zervas out of Cameria. They released the Albanians held in jails and allowed many Albanians to return to their homes. However the Greek communists eventually lost the power and in 1945 Zervas came back once more to complete his actions.

The excuse used of course was that the Cams had committed crimes against the Greek state becasue they had collaborated with the Germans by joining Albania and "massacring" Greeks. Of course that is ridiculous...becasue the union between Albania and Cameria wasn't in the hands of Cams and no one asked Cams but was a political decision of Hitler and Mussolini...And secodnly there were no massacres of anyone in the area or anywhere else in Albania. If Albanains wanted to expell Greeks...we would have started with the Greeks in Himara and around Gjirokastra...and yet the same number of Greeks there ebfore the war were after the war. We touched no one. And of course the charges of collaboration are ridiculous becasue the Cams were well known to have been collaborators only with the Greek communist Partizans.

However...the Greek communists were weakened and therefore this was a good opportunity to get rid of the last remaining Albanian presence in the lands occupied since 1912...and do it at a time when no one was looking or caring. The same applied to other minorities throughout Greece who suffered the same fate.

The fact that there were massacres and deportations carried out is not the issue here. This is internationally recognized. Even America send a substantial ammount of money for the time to help out the Cam refugees in Albania.

The modern state of Greece wasn't fromed until 1912...and it was formed when Greece expanded into lands which were mostly inhabited by non-Greeks. The aera of "Epirus" was inhabited mostly by Albanians...and by Slavs in what is today "Greek Macedonia"...and Bulgars further east. These were lands which with the exception of a POSSIBLE ancient Hellenic presence in the area...had no other conncetion to "Greece" or "Greeks".

Of course Greeks of today have a very hard time accepting the fact that they themselves may have nothing to do with the ancient Hellens too. They have a hard time accepting that the 30% Albanians that lived in Greece back in the 1800s...and were later assimilated...are still there ;) They didn't dissapear...YOU may be one of them too! And large number of Slavs, Bulgars, Turks and so forth that have gone in and out of that area over the cnturies, settled it, ruled it, invaded it...have mized and intermixed with the population many time...creating a mixtrue of ethnicities. The 1821 census of Athens showed the population of Athens at the time was 40% Turks, 20% Albanians, 15% Greeks and the rest were Jews and Vlachs. A simple drive around Greece and you'll see just about every Balkanic feature, skin tone and shapes you'll ever see. Just a simple look at modern Greek culture, music, dresses and so forth...and you'll see a mixture of every Balkanic and Turkish culture, dress, music, food and so forth. Is this coincidental?? What is the meaning of this?? Greece was the one area where all these people met...Albanians up to Arta...followed by migratiosn in the 1300s from Kosova all the way to the Peoloponesus...Slavic invasions thrghout the Middle Ages...Bulgarian invasions...Turkish invasion and settlemants for 500 years...Byzantines inviting all sorts of people to come and settle. What do you think is the end-result of all this??? How do you think today's modern greek culture came about looking like a carbon-copy paper of Albanian/Turkish/Slavic culture?? These are all very unpleasnt things for Greeks to think about and to look at...becasue it challanges their ideal that they are descendents of the ancient Hellenics and therefore can claim all these lands as their own. But are they??? Are they more "Hellenic" than the Slavic Macedonians who today call themselves Macedonians??? I don't think so...

Anyway...to get back to the Cams and the issue with Albania. The Cams eventually settled in Albania an become Albanian citizens and today are about 200,000 strong. What they want...is compensation of the property and ladn they lost...either to give them back the land...or to pay compensation for the damges. Greece of course doesn't want to face its past...becasue that is one nasty past for all of Greece's neighbours as well...so talking about the Cams just opens up a Pandora's box for Greece...

But one day this issue will have to be addressed...it won't be soon but one day they will have to address it.

gbos

11-06-2005, 11:34 AM

There is such an enormous amount of BS in your response Shqiptari that I don’t even consider replying to it. BTW do you use the ‘iliria’ alias in some other forums? You and him post almost the same tale stories.

achilles

11-06-2005, 02:34 PM

Of course I'm joking...

Stop joking cause our stomach hurts from all that spastic laughing :lol:

Epirus and Cameria are two different issues and two different regions. Cameria is a part of Epirus. Epirus in general is a geographical region which stretches from Southern Albania all the way to Arta in today's Greece.

How can Cameria be part of Epirus, and yet the two are two different areas? You are all messed up my friend...you need some professional help.

The Epiriots were made up of several tribes, like the Molossi and Chaoni. This was in ancient antiquity. The Greeks claim the Epiriots were a "Greek" people...and therefore since in ancient times this area was inhabited by Greeks...it is therefore Greek today as well.

Mollosoi...a purely Doric tribe. You know what a Doric tribe is dont you? Take a look at who were the Mollosians just to get you started with:
The Greek name Epirus signifies "mainland" or "continent", and was originally applied to the whole coast south to the Corinthian Gulf. Epirus was settled by Illyrians early in the second millennium BC and parts of it were much later colonized by the ancient Greeks.

Epirus was ruled from the 6th century by a dynasty, the Molossians, who claimed to be descended from Neoptolemus, son of Achilles. The main importance of Epirus to the Greek cities (polis) was that it was the location of the shrine and the oracle at Dodona, second in importance only to the oracle at Delphi. Arybbas was a respected figure in the ancient world, and his niece, Olympias, married Philip II of Macedon and was the mother of Alexander the Great.

On the death of Arybbas, Alexander succeeded the throne and the title King of Epirus. Aeacides, who succeeded Alexander, espoused the cause of Olympias against Cassander, but was dethroned in 313 BC. His son Pyrrhus came to throne in 295 BC, and for six years fought against the Romans in southern Italy and Sicily. His campaigns gave Epirus a new, but brief, importance.

In the third century BC Epirus remained a substantial power, and the Epirotes attempted to gain control of Macedonia, but in the 2nd century they blundered into war against the Romans, and in 168 BC the Romans pillaged the country and effectively ended its independence. In 146 BC it became part of the province of Roman Macedonia, receiving the name Epirus Vetus, to distinguish it from Epirus Nova to the east. This conquest led to the distruction of 70 cities and villages and to the enslavement of 150 000 Epirotes.

EVERYTHING is Hellenic about the ancient Epirotic tribes poor man...but you carefully avoided in commenting on this (oh that was too many years ago huh?:lol:)
The Molossians were a Greek tribe of ancient Epirus.

They claimed to be descendents of Molossus, one of the three sons of Neoptolemus, son of Achilles and Hector's wife Andromache. According to Greek mythology, following the sack of Troy, Neoptolemus and his armies settled in Epirus where they joined the local Dorian Greek population and displaced the barbarian tribes to the North.

Molossus inherited the kingdom of Epirus after the death of Helenus, son of Priam and Hecuba of Troy, who had married his erstwhile sister-in-law Andromache after Neoptolemus' death.

Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great, was a Molossian princess.

The most famous member of the Molossian dynasty was Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander.

The Molossians were also known for their vicious hounds which were used by shepherds to guard their flocks.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians"

MANY others...including Albanians and many historians...claim the Epiriots were not Greeks but Illyrians...ie the predecesors of the Albanians.

Many??? Albanians and others? Others who? Tell me please i am dying to know...

In my opinion...they were not Greek at all but Illyrians...

Your opinion is void of any substance cause it totally unjustified and takes way too many things for grandit. Even if they were Illyrians (which is not the case), who guarantees you that today's Albanians are descendants of the barbaric tribe of Illyria?
Ethnic origin of modern Albanians...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians

[quote]Now...all that is ancient history. What is know is that by the Middle Ages Epirus was considered universally as part of Albania.

Universally? Oh gosh:lol: :lol: From east to west and from north to south...your are being so specific you are killing me

The official title of Scenderbe...the guy on my avatar...was King of Epirus. He himself claimed direct descendence from Pirro of Epir.

Oh did he? And i claim to be Napoleon Bonaparte...do you believe me?

Here is a hint on who Pyrros was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

If you dont like wikipedia, an independent and relatively objective source, i can bombard you with many others but i would appreciate it if you didnt waste TOO much of my time.

So Pyrros the Mollosian king...was an Albanian or Illyrian? Only the Turks can surpass you in distorting history...

Either way little is known about the period before the Middle Ages and as to what the epople who lived there were...no one in those times cared to classify people on those basis. But by the early middle ages this area was inhabited by Albanians...and this was WAY before the Ottomans ever appeared. By the 1300s there was also a huge wave of Albanian migration coming down from the North from the areas where the Serbs were advancing (Kosova and many other areas whcih today are Serbian). These people were invited by the Byzantines to come and settle in wat they called largly uninhabited lands in the Peloponesus and so forth....to the point that Albanians made up a huge chunk of the total population of the entire area we call Greece today...in the 1300s this is. These 1300 migrants however settled in the Peoloponesus and many of the Aegean islands.

Oh ****...the Albanian tsunami...:lol: That many Albanians immigrated is true but your description is a fairy tale, way out of proportion. Check again what you ve been told.

...sided with the Greeks during their war of independence and provided the Greeks with their best and most famous fighters. The traditional "Greek" costume worn by the Greek honor guards...the fustanella and everything...is actually the costume of the Arvanites...which was adopted by the Greeks following the war as a sign of respect for these fighters.

It is true that the Arvanites fought bravely with us during the war of Independence. Yet, i am sorry to dissappoint you that foustanela comes from our ancient antiquity. Please recheck what you ve been told once more.

By that time Albanians made up about 30% of the total population of the land which then was Greece. The original idea before the war...was the creation of a state where 50% of the deputies in parliament would be Albanian and 50% Greek. Those ideas quickly ended after the war...and over the years the Albanian identity of the Arvanites was fought and eliminated...mainly due to the use of the Greek Orthodox Church. It did take more than 2 centuries though to completely estinguish the Arvanites in Greece as a separate people...and even today there is still a trickle of people who still speak Arvanitika (an archaic dialect of Albanian). I'v been told by people who have been to Greece and have gone to some villages in these areas...you still find many old people will reply to you in Albanian if you speak to them in Albanian.

30% is a percentage stemming from that bad albanian weed you are on. Can you back this up? Or you will just keep flooding our thread with hallucinating crap?

yet, it is true that there are still some people who speak 'Arvanitika' in remote places of Northern Greece. Most of them, identify themselves as Greeks and even if they dont, they are not characterized by your hatred and bias against Greece.

Now...besides these Arvanites...who were assimilated "peacefully" from the 1800s on...

They have been peacefully assimilated indeed...ask my Arvanites friends...one of my best friends surname is 'Arvanitakis' and he feels more Greek than i do :lol: WE dont care about genes, my poor man...we care more about mentalities and a common vision of a nation state.

achilles

11-06-2005, 02:43 PM

A large number of the remianing Muslim Albanians were expelled to Turkey in the 1920s and 30s as part of their population exchange. The Greeks considered everyone who was Muslim as a "Turk"...and therefore send many thousands of Albanians to Turkey.

Yep, as the result of the Ottoman recruit of those who became known as 'Turkalbanians', i.e. Muslims of ambiguous origin who felt great when slaughtering Greeks during our war of independence.

Of course EVERY country and people had collaborators. So its ridiculous to say Camerians collaborated...when they did no more than Greeks themselves did.

I advise you to be more careful and less of a dickhead when linking Greece with Nazis...;)

Instead...Camerians were the first to organize resistance movements to the Germans.

No, i think Camerians launched the world civilization and have been nurishing it ever since...do we have a deal? :lol:

I circumvent many parts of your posts cause i am really bored of replying to your ingorance...its an insult to my average intelligence so please bear with my cherry picking...
Of course Greeks of today have a very hard time accepting the fact that they themselves may have nothing to do with the ancient Hellens too.

But you dont get it...we dont care about matching our current DNA with that of our ancient ancestors. We admire their heritage, study their philosophy and, hopefully, we will be able one day to stand up to their glory. Now if there is Arvanite, Turkish, Slavic blood running side by side with our Hellenic one, it doesnt matter...

Besides, can you show me ONE race that hasnt undergone serious anthropological change after thousands of years of ethnic mixture, military occupation and population exchange?

Do you feel like Pyrros' grandson or something? :lol:

Please mate...either consolidate your claims, which will not happen in a thousand years from now, or stop wasting badnwidth.

Thank you very much for your attention....Pyrro! :lol: :lol:

achilles

11-06-2005, 06:43 PM

To anyone interested, more on Pyrrhus and his ancient Hellenic Kingdom of Epirus:
PYRRHUS
318 - 272 BC
Greek King of Epirus
Pyrrhus was king of the Hellenistic kingdom of Epirus whose costly military successes against Macedonia and Rome gave rise to the phrase' Pyrrhic victory'.

http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/people_n2/ppersons2_n2/pyrrhus.html

This is from Plutarch:
Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/pyrrhus.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Pyrrhus*.html
Pyrrhus was born in 319/318 as the son of Aeacides and a Greek lady from Thessaly named Phthia
http://www.livius.org/ps-pz/pyrrhus/pyrrhus01.html

Looking at the ancient coins of the region, it, again, smells like Hellenism:
http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/greece.html

The Epirotes and Macedonians of the time were the mountainous Dorians, who, most likely, descended to the Greek peninsula at around 11 century B.C. Perhaps the Thracians were a distinct tribe, who were vastly hellenized in the beggining and eventualy lost their intitial identity, after the Slavic penetration in the region.

This is an excerpt related to the genealogy of the Mollosians, the Hellenic Dorian tribe that comprised most of the ancient Epirus:
(1) The son of Achilles and Deïdamia. He was brought up by his grandfather Lycomedes in Scyros. After Achilles' death, however, he was led by Odysseus to Troy, since, according to the prophecy of Helenus, that town could be taken only by a descendant of Aeacus. Here, like his father, he distinguished himself above all by a courage which none could withstand. He slew Eurypylus, son of Telephus, and was one of the heroes in the wooden horse, where he alone remained undaunted. Later legend depicts him as fierce and cruel: at the taking of Troy he killed the aged Priam at the altar of Zeus, hurled Hector's son, Astyanax, down from the walls, and offered up Polyxena upon his father's tomb. In Homer he arrives safely with much booty at Phthia, his father's home, and weds Menelaüs's daughter Hermioné, who was promised him during the siege of Troy ( Od.iv. 5). Later legend represents him as accompanied by Andromaché, Hector's wife, who is allotted him as a part of his booty, and Helenus, and then, on the strength of a prophecy of Helenus, as going to Epirus and settling there. It was to a son of his by Lanassa, granddaughter of Heracles, that the later kings of Epirus traced back their descent, and accordingly styled themselves Aeacidae; while from his son by Andromaché, Molossus, the district of Molossia was said to derive its name (Pausan. i. 11). He afterwards went to Phthia, to reinstate his grandfather Peleus in his kingdom whence he had been expelled by Acastus and wedded Hermioné. He soon, however, met his death at Delphi, whither, according to one story, he had gone with dedicatory offerings, or, according to another, to plunder the temple of Apollo in revenge for his father's death. The accounts of his death vary, some attributing it to Orestes, the earlier lover of Hermioné; others to the Delphians, at the instance of the Pythian priestess; others again to a quarrel about the meat-offerings. The scene of his death was the altar, a coincidence which was regarded as a judgment for his murder of Priam. His tomb was within the precincts of the Delphic temple, and in later times he was worshipped as a hero with annual sacrifices by the Delphians, as he was said to have vouchsafed valuable assistance against the Gauls when they threatened the sacred spot (B.C. 279) (Pausan. x. 23)."
^^^Taken by a personal source. It clearly suggests the Hellenic descent of the Mollosians. No doubt, part of the broader region of 'Epirus' was inhabited by mixed Illyrian tribes. Yet, noone guarantees that modern Albanians are descendants of the ancient barbaric tribe of the Illyrians. There are about 10 theories related to the ethnic origins of modern Albanians, one of which claims that they MIGHT be descendants of the Illyrians.

achilles

11-06-2005, 07:03 PM

There are several questions, then. Was every Albanian man woman and child guilty of collaborating with the NAZIs? That’s doubtful. However, another question is, were the Çams who are agitating to have their property returned even alive when this happened? In other words, is this another version of the Palestinians ‘right of return’ in which anyone related to those who voluntarily left or expelled entitled to land that has been occupied and developed by others for more than 2 generations

Of course not all Cams were guilty of collaborating with the Nazis. Can we blame ALL Germans of the WWII period for the Jewish holocaust?

I am not sure the case of the Cams can be put in parallel with the Palestinians 'right of return' (quote or not). All i can say with certainty is that the Cams currently consist of a very convenient Trojan horse for Albania to raise issues against Greece, when this seems to be convenient.

The Cams lived in Greece, had large plots of land, sided with the wrong side and were eventually expelled back to their own country. It was all part of a much needed historical process: the perpetuation of 'Hellenism' and the relatively new 'Greek state' whose solidarity, autonomy and smooth functioning was largely jeopardized by hostile elements, like the Cams. At least some of them.

The Arvanites (most serious scholars say that they are largely of Hellenic descent), on the other hand, have been assimilated within the Greek society. This has to do with the fact that they helped Greece in her struggle to get rid of the Ottoman cancer, their religious parity and their overall moderate stance as an ethnic minority, assuming of course that they can be considered of non-Hellenic descent. The thing is, that most Arvanites hate being called 'Albanians', most likely because this is historically inaccurate, pretty much like every Albanian propagandistic claim.

walford

11-06-2005, 07:04 PM

achilles

11-07-2005, 04:06 AM

I'm certainly taking all of this info bearing in mind that perspective colors description. The trading of insults I suppose, is to be taken as 'feature' of a discussion invovling this region. Very informative, much appreciated.

No it does not have to be a feature walford. I recall very nice discussions with Turks, Albanians, Skopans or you name it. The trading of insults becomes a feature when the side who is in great need of appropriating someone else's history...starts doing so.

Think about it...is it possible that Greece needs to steal someone else's past? ;)

kenshiroIT

11-07-2005, 04:43 AM

GREEK-AIRBORNE

11-07-2005, 08:44 AM

When a president of one Country (Greece) meet with a president of another country (Albania) and
1)when the albanian Government says it can NOT QUARANTEE THE SAFETY OF THE GREEK PRESIDENT.
2) The Greek President ask from Albanian side to not allow the protesters get near him and THE ALBANIAN SIDE SAYS IT WILL NOT DO THAT BECAUSE "WE ARE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY"
3) When these protesters CLAIM ABOUT GREEK SOIL (THESPROTIA- EPIRUS) MUST BECOME ALBANIAN AND CHANGE OF BORDERS
4) When these protesters WAS NAZI ALLIES AND COMMITED WAR CRIMES

Please tell me who can blame this President (Greek president Mr. Papoulias) canceling the meeting!
Is this meeting so important that he must ignore
1)His Safety
2)Albanian refusal to cooperate with Greek side
3)Unacceptable claims about CHANGE OF BORDERS from NAZI Supporters

What will George Bush or any other President will do in Papoulias position?

Vorian

11-07-2005, 11:29 AM

achilles

11-07-2005, 11:41 AM

achilles

11-07-2005, 11:55 AM

Shqiptari, you do know that your national hero Skederbei's real name was Georgios Kastriotis? His father was Greek and his mother Othoman(i am not sure about his mother). He only went to Albania because it suited him. The first time he went there was as a Turkish soldier. Didn't know that?
Btw, Illirians have nothing to do with Albanians. Albanian origins, are a mix of Slav and Greek people. Illirians were hellenised and assimilated during the Roman era.

And thanks for bringing this up Vorian. Shall i refresh our memories a bit further on Georgios Kastriotis?

Georgios Kastriotis: He was also known as Skenterbeis. Greek Epirotian prince son of Ioannis Kastriotis, medieval feudal lord of Krugia, in North Epirus. Georgios Kastriotis was born on1405 in the citadel of Krugia. He became legendary for its tries to unify the population of Epirus and eliberate the region from the Ottoman invaders. He fought against the Turks for 50 years and he did not lost any battle. He was concerned also about sociological and political issues of its era, and he was accepting as prime values the teachings of the major medieval Greek philosopher Georgios Plithon Gemistos, who was arguing for a neccesity of a definiton of the medieval state and the diversification between the warrior and the farmer. Georgios Kastriotis became a legend for the suppressed by the Muslim invaders Epirotians, and all Greeks. His figure was untill the 19th Century, considered as National Hero of resistance and military success. With the illegal creation of the Albanian state in 1914, the unorganized and savage till then Albanian tribes tried to invent a medieval history in order to justify the existence of their illegal state. So during the communist era, the stalinist regime of Enver Xoxha adopted the legend of Kastriotis forging the true history, and his origin. It was a clear example of newly created statal forms which in the lack of proper history are forging the legends of other nations. The Greek Epirotian origin of Kastriotis is easily demonstrated by simple arguments. Georgios kastriotis was cristian orthodox, in contrast with the big majority of the Albanians which are muslim (90%). His name was Georgios (ancient Greek name), and his surname Kastriotis (Kastro in Greek means castle, Kastriotis is called the person from the castle or the person with the castle). The majority of the Albanian names are Ahmet or Suleiman or something like that. Finnaly in his letter to the Prince of Taranto Jovanni Antonio, Kastriotis says: " Our ancestors were Epirotians, from which Pyrros the King was born. Who won the Romans and occupied Taranto and other cities of Italy. You do not have fighters to resist in the Epirotian courage" ("Georgios Kastriotis", K.Paganel, p.156, 1860).
http://www.geocities.com/northepirus/history2.html

He was an Epirot...shall i refresh our memories on who the Epirotes where?
Epirotians are the oldest Greek tribe. Our history begins 5.000 years B.C. Our land is situated in the Balkan peninsula between the North Western part of Greece and the South of Albania. The northern part of our land, the known NORTH EPIRUS is occupied by the ALBANIANS from 1914.
Ancient period: Our classic ancient history is dominated by the unification of the GREEK Epirotic tribes by the MOLOSSIAN (Epirotic tribe) King NEOPTOLEMOS in the early 1.900-1.550 B.C. The capital city of the ancient Epirotian kingdom was PASSARON. Some ruins of the city are located today near the modern capital IOANNINA.The niece of the Molossian King ARYBBAS, the beautiful OLYMPIAS was married with the King of MACEDONIA PHILIP II and gave birth to our national hero, the famous ALEXANDER the GREAT.
King Pyrros:The biggest King of Epirus was PYRROS. He contributed to the development of the region with the construction of temples and cultural buildings but his major occupation was the teritorial enlargement of Epirus. Inspired by the campaign of Alexander the Great in Asia, he planificated a similar campaign, in the west. He invaded Italy and confronted, the Roman Army. He won a lot of batles but after the excausting of his army by several diseases he was forced to return in Epirus. Then he enlarged Epirus in the south, occuping several territories. He was assasinated young in Pelloponisos.
Medieval Period: The next important historical period for Epirus, was during the Middle Ages.The Vyzantine Empire contribute to the development of the region, thousands of impressive churces were built all over Epirus. The Emperor JUSTINIAN founded in 527 A.C. the city of IOANNINA which became the capital of Epirus. During the Latin occupation of Greek Vyzantine territories, the habitants of Epirus confront the Catholic invaders and established a free kingdom. This kingdom was known as the DESPOTATE OF EPIRUS with capital the city of ARTA and first leader the prince MICHAEL KOMNINOS.
http://www.geocities.com/northepirus/history.html

Another important person in our history is the figure of GEORGIOS KASTRIOTIS. He was the son of Ioannis Kastriotis, a GREEK Epirotian leader of the medieval feudal of Krugia.The young KASTRIOTIS became leader of his people and he united the divided medieval Epirotic kingdoms.He confronted with his brave Epirotians the mighty Asian hordes of the Turkish invaders and he won all the batlles. In his whole life as a leader he was never defeated , so became a legend not only for his people the Epirotians but for all the GREEKS. Unlucky the modern Albanian state created a mythological propaganda that KASTRIOTIS was of Albanian origin.This is a huge lie, because in the middle ages it didnt exist in the BALKANS any Albanian nation or other similar to it.Albanian nation was the creation of the mixture between Turks and Slavic tribes, for this reason Albanians are nowadays the only muslim nation state. KASTRIOTIS was a christian GREEK leader.
http://utenti.lycos.it/regnodiepiro/Inglese.html

Of course it is easy for those who are mastering in appropriating others' history to turn 'georgios kastriotis' to 'georgi kastrioti' and 'markos botsaris' to 'marko botsari'...this is how pathetic their distortion is.

Shqiptari

11-07-2005, 12:19 PM

Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son.

Excuse me...WHERE in this does it say ANYTHING about the Thesprotians and Molossians being "Greek"?? It says they had their own language...and that "Greek manners and learning" were introduced to this "barbarous land". Brabarous in greek means...non-Greek...not necessarely barbarian as we see them today.

This says what I'v been saying all along...these people were not Greeks...no one from that time EVER claimed them as Greeks...not did they claim themselves EVER as Greeks.

Do some more research...and read what the ancient Greeks say about these people. Do a little research to see what Plato says about their language...which he describes as a barbarous language which to him sounded similar to Illyrian (he spoke neither though). Also he describes the organization of the Molossians and Thesprotians. These were tribes which had organizational structures COMPLETELY different from Greeks. They had no Kings...they were ruled by conmpromise between the ruling elite...almost exactly the same as Albanian tribes would be organized later on in the Middle Ages.

What this also mentions...is Greek colonies...which I also mentioned. Greeks established colonies in the area...introduced their writing system and so forth...but these colonies were expelled by the 4th century BC.

Pirro himself spend most of his life being raised by the Illyrian King Galukus...becasue of blood relation to him after he was kicked out of Epirus.

BTW Hyllus is the MYTHICAL first king of the Illyrians (I stress mythical...becasue 99.9% of the people mentioned in these things are mythical people who probably never existed...like Achiles and so forth...Greek historians of the time tied everyone to such people who supposedly existed many centuries before they were writing...so I don't see how these things like "he was descendent of Achiles bla bla bla" can be taken at face value...its like reading the Bible and taking it at face value). Hyllus in Albanian means star...and he was followed by Bardhyl...literally meaning in Albanian white star. So...hmm...

As for them being Doric tribes...well thats your fantasy but there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest anything of the sort.

Now...here are some more quotations from ancient Greek historians themselves. I won't bother replying to the dirbble of crap from WIKKIPIDEA...a internet "encyclopedia" which can be edited by ANYONE at a moment's notice...and if I wanted to right now I could completely edit the entire entry on Albania if I was an idiot who wanted to waste my time by convincing other idiots who read wikkipedia and quote that for histroical discussions...lol.

As far as I am concenred...ONLY ancient Greek historian's accounts of the issue can be considered as legitimate. They are the only people who lived in the time, had contact with these people and wrote first-hand accounts of them. Historians of today dig up some things in some Greek colony in Epirus and claim Epirus as Greek...ignoring the dynamics of the region which were that these were only colonies and not the entire region.

Now we have Thucydides who in his book on the Peloponesian Wars gives figures of the people who participated. He mentions the Greek tribes first...and then he mentions the "barbarians"...which incude the Chaones, Thesprotians, Mollosians, Atintanians and Parauej. These people are clarly defined as barbarian...which means non-Greeks. So obvsiouly the ancient Greeks didn't consider them as such.

Then we have Skylaks whi in his geography book of 370bc breaks it down as the following:
In The North Adriatic lives the tribe of the Liburnians,
"The middle and the South Adriatic sea Is Populated By Illyrians"
"The Ionian sea is devided Between Chaons and Thesprots.Between them The Mollosians
have opened an exit to the sea wich is (40 stadia=8Km)."
"After Mollosia it comes Ambracia an Hellenic Polis,which is (80 stadia) away from the sea"
"From there and down is Hellas no end"

So Hellas is what is Greek...with Ambracia being the first Hellenic point of contact...a colony. Clearly the Chaons, Thesprots and Mollosians were not considered as Greeks by him.

Then you have the Roman historians of a bit later. Strabo says this:
"Starting from Epidamnus(Durres,Dyrrahio) and down to Apollonia, in the Right they have the tribes of Epirus....., in the Left they have the mountains of Illyria.....Then Sailing from Ambracian Golf and on, the places wich is in the East and across Peloponnesous are Hellenic.

And then he says:
"After the Epirots and Illyrians, from the Hellenes are Akarnanes,Etoles,Lokries and Ezoles"

So he specifically mentions the Hellenic tribes which followed the Epiriots and Illyrians...but clearly the Epiriots nor Illyrians were considered as Greeks.

And then you have Appianus in his "Historia Romana":
"The Hellenes call Illyrians, those people wich live across Thrace and Macedonia from Chaones and Thesprotes till the river of Istria"

Then you have Ephores:
"the Head(start) of Hellas, is Akarnania from the West,because it is the first that contacts with the Epirots tribes"

So by all accounts of the ancients themselves... the Epiriots were not considered as Greeks at all...but always classified as babrabrians...ie non-Greeks. They never claimed to be Greek...They had a lot of close contact with the Greeks, fought with some tribes, foguth against many others and so forth...but they certainly weren't Greek at all.

So...the historical claim of Greece based ont he fact that Greece claims the Epiriot tribes as their own...is false...its an invention of recent times. Its not really fair to call them Epiriots either...that is a name given to them by the Greeks of Corfu. They were a combination of several tribes...

How can Cameria be part of Epirus, and yet the two are two different areas? You are all messed up my friend...you need some professional help.

The same way that America nd Texas are not the same thing. Texas is part of America...but you can't characterise America based on texas. Understand?? Professional help comming soon??

I advise you to be more careful and less of a dickhead when linking Greece with Nazis...;-)

Thank you for your advice...And I advice you to speak like a human being for once...

I circumvent many parts of your posts cause i am really bored of replying to your ingorance...its an insult to my average intelligence so please bear with my cherry picking...

I would expcet ntohing less of you but for you to ignore what I have said...

Just for your records...I have the exact figures of the population census of the Janina Villayet...as provided by the Ottoman Foreign Minister in 1910:
227 484 albanian muslims
213 281 albanian ortodoks christians
91 991 greeks
4 906 jews.

So Greeks made up about 17% of "Epirus"...most fo them being concentrated as I said earlier down in the South around Janina...and around Gjirokastra...and most of them being recent arrivals (by 1910) invited there by Ali Pasha Tepelena.

In the area of Cameria alone there lived 83,000 Albanian Muslims and Christians in 1910.

But you dont get it...we dont care about matching our current DNA with that of our ancient ancestors. We admire their heritage, study their philosophy and, hopefully, we will be able one day to stand up to their glory. Now if there is Arvanite, Turkish, Slavic blood running side by side with our Hellenic one, it doesnt matter...

That is VERY BIG of you to admitt...but I know this is not a view shared by your fellow Greeks very much...

So the question than arises...WHAT makes you more worthy of claiming the heritage of the ancient Hellens...than makes the Slavic Macedonians?? If you have nothing to do with the ancient Hellens other than your admiration for their culture (which you no longer have), then why hassle the Slavic Macedonians for doing the same?? They too mixed with the previous population that was there...or don't you think so??

Besides, can you show me ONE race that hasnt undergone serious anthropological change after thousands of years of ethnic mixture, military occupation and population exchange?

There are many...even in the Balkans...Greeks on the other hand are by far the most mixed in the Balkans.

Albanians survived as the only remaining Illyrian people becasue we lived in the mountanous areas...wheres other Illyrain tribes dissapeared...and as a result of our isolation in the mountains we were cut off from the various barbarian invasions and so forth that were the casue of so much mixing. After that...there was little mixing...The Turks did not attempt to settle in Albania like they did in Greece...nor did anyone else try to settle in Albania at the time (despite Bulgarian and Norman invasion which left some legacy). And then you have the people who themselves did the setteling into Greece...the various Slavic people...most of them have remained as they were or at the most extent have mixed somewhat with the previous Illyrian population.

But Greece is different...EVERYONE went into Greece with the intention of setteling (becasue there's a difference between a barbarian invasion lasting a few months...and settlements). That did not happen in many other areas of the Balkans.

Epirus was settled by Illyrians early in the second millennium BC and parts of it were much later colonized by the ancient Greeks.

:roll: ...and how does this differ from what I'v been saying all along?? Illyrian land and people...a sprinkle of Greek colonies...which were eventually expelled in the 4th century BC when the tribes were strong enough to do so.

EVERYTHING is Hellenic about the ancient Epirotic tribes poor man...but you carefully avoided in commenting on this (oh that was too many years ago huh?:lol:)

I said this earlier above...I quote ancient Greek and Roman historians...you quote Wikkipedia. I don't think I need to make any more comments at all.

Oh did he? And i claim to be Napoleon Bonaparte...do you believe me?

Yes...in your mind you are...but thats becasue you have issues...

So Pyrros the Mollosian king...was an Albanian or Illyrian? Only the Turks can surpass you in distorting history...

No one has distorted history more than the modern Greeks...your versions of events don't even match what your ancient historians said about the Epiriots or Pirro or who and what he was.

Yep, as the result of the Ottoman recruit of those who became known as 'Turkalbanians', i.e. Muslims of ambiguous origin who felt great when slaughtering Greeks during our war of independence.

You felt equally great slaughtering them...not to mention they weren't your lands to begin with...land which hadn't seen a Greek footstep before 1912.

Many??? Albanians and others? Others who? Tell me please i am dying to know...

The multitude of ancient Greek and Roman historians I quoted earlier :) And far too many modern hisotrians for you to know.

Oh ****...the Albanian tsunami...:lol: That many Albanians immigrated is true but your description is a fairy tale, way out of proportion. Check again what you ve been told.

A tsunami would be appropriate in describing them...although these people are not people who settled in Epirus but in the Peoloponesus...

According to the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia...
"The Albanian pop’ulation extends over all Attica and Megaris (except the towns of Athens, Peiraeus and Megara), the greater part of Boeotia, the eastern districts of Locris, the southern half of Euboea and the northern side of Andros, the whole of the islands of Salamis, Hydra, Spetsae and Poros, and part of Aegina, the whole of Corinthia and Argolis, the northern districts of Arcadia and the eastern portion of Achaea. There are also small Albanian groups in Laconia and Messenia"

It is true that the Arvanites fought bravely with us during the war of Independence. Yet, i am sorry to dissappoint you that foustanela comes from our ancient antiquity. Please recheck what you ve been told once more.

Hmm...lol...please show me ONE referance or painting of a Greek man before the war of independence wearing the fustanella. I eagerly await... :)

30% is a percentage stemming from that bad albanian weed you are on. Can you back this up? Or you will just keep flooding our thread with hallucinating crap?

yet, it is true that there are still some people who speak 'Arvanitika' in remote places of Northern Greece. Most of them, identify themselves as Greeks and even if they dont, they are not characterized by your hatred and bias against Greece.

I already gave a quote from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia describing the extent of the Albanian expansion in the Peloponesus...and that was in 1911..in the 1800s it was higher.

And here is what the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia says about the Arvaniti:
"They played a brilliant part during the War of Independence, and furn