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He219
11-02-2005, 10:32 AM
That's quite a record.. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051101/od_nm/albania_migs_dc_1)

By Benet Koleka Tue Nov 1,11:44 AM ET


TIRANA (*******) - Albania's antiquated air force of Soviet-designed MiG aircraft, which killed 35 Albanian pilots but no enemies, is finally on its way to the museum and the scrapheap, the armed forces chief said on Tuesday.

If anyone wants to buy them, they are welcome," General Pellumb Qazimi told *******. Some potential Western buyers "wanted to turn them into bars," he said.

For the Albanian military, the general said, the future lies in a fleet of modern multi-role helicopters able to "interact with the planes of the ( NATO (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=NATO)) alliance we want to join."

A satellite of Soviet Union and China during the first decades of the Cold War, the Stalinist regime of Enver Hoxha was given a fleet that grew to 125 MiGs to repel what Qazimi called "a classic total aggression" from the West.

The first MiG-15 squadron arrived from the Soviet Union in 1951 and it had seen action in Korea, said Perikli Teta, Albania's air force engineer-in-chief for 17 years.

"You could still see where the bullet holes had been repaired," Teta told *******. The 15s were followed in the 1970s and 1980s by scores of MiG-17s, or Frescoes in NATO parlance, and MiG-19s, known to the alliance as Farmers.

All have the stubby swept-back wings, cigar shaped fuselage and nose intake of the iconic communist Cold War interceptor.

Albanian pilots were praised in the government-controlled press but had little glory to their credit other than flying low down Tirana's main boulevard, rattling windowpanes and startling citizens with their supersonic booms.

Qazimi said the planes were simply a deterrent, "a show of force" in a region bristling with arms. On one occasion they forced a landing by a retired U.S. airman who had lost direction on his way to a holiday in Rome.
Teta said MiG flights were curtailed after the fall of communism in 1991, because Albania, Europe's poorest country at that time, could not afford 1,000 litres of fuel per flight.

At the dawn of democracy, some sat forlorn under tattered canvas covers at Tirana's Rinas airport, their wheels deep in mud and their rusty wings tilted.

Qazimi some would be going to museums, a few would be kept for instruction and others sold for scrap. None would be sold for military purposes.

The Chinese-built versions were dangerous, Teta said.
"I think it was always the aircraft that was to blame (for the fatal accidents)," he said. "One accident last year was exactly the same as one that happened 20 years ago."

With the MiGs out of the sky, Teta now worries about Albania's creaking helicopters of Soviet make. "Whenever I hear their engine, I follow it until it lands," he said.

Deuterium
11-02-2005, 11:13 AM
They won't have any problem selling them in the West.

mack pl
11-02-2005, 11:52 AM
They won't have any problem selling them in the West.

x2

Poland sold quite a lot of old military airplanes after 1989

goldman
11-02-2005, 12:58 PM
Finally!woot

Tiki
11-02-2005, 03:28 PM
yipiiiieeee!!!

tehllama
11-02-2005, 06:23 PM
Ah, the yin and yang of modern fighter aircraft, the Israelis have managed a undefined ratio of kills to losses (math term for lots of kills over a goose egg in losses), whereas poor Albania has managed a zero.

I've seen some of the liscence built MiG 17's from China, I'd rather get in a dogfight with an A-10. Those things looked a tad scary, especially if you're having to fly them on a bare-bones inadequate maintenance budget. Eek!

vryhpyammoadded
11-02-2005, 07:00 PM
Oh crap! Did I just buy a NORINCO built Farmer? Noooooooo…p-)

Shqiptari
11-04-2005, 01:38 PM
That article is a pile of crap. To begin with...35 if the number of pilots and technicians killed to all reasons...since 1949!! and it includes helicopter pilots, prop-plane pilots, and at least 3 pilots not even killed on Albanian planes but while in training in Russia or other countries.

Overall only 6-7 MiGs of all types have crashed in total in Albania...so if you want to talk record...this is the record for the LOWEST loos ratio. Compare that to Italy's F-104 fleet with its 33% loss ratio while our Migs suffered about 5%.

And as for poor Albania having no air-air victories...we have 7 as a matter of fact and no losses. All are planes intercepted and forced down and captured...and include a T-33, a Globemaster transporter, 2 Italian fighters in the 60s, a Yugoslav fighter in the mid 80s, a Cessna-type in the late 80s and one other aircraft I have no details of. 2 more aircarft have been shot down by air-defenses.

Its kind of ridiculous to compare Israel with its perpetual state of war with Albania which has never been in a war.

Little Johnny
11-04-2005, 02:34 PM
Overall only 6-7 MiGs of all types have crashed in total in Albania...so if you want to talk record...this is the record for the LOWEST loos ratio. Compare that to Italy's F-104 fleet with its 33% loss ratio while our Migs suffered about 5%.
Well duh cause they only flew like once a year since Albania never had any fuel for them. :|

Albanian AF = worst AF in Europe by far, it was in the 50s and in the 70s and in the 90s and it is today.

ed316
11-04-2005, 02:47 PM
I wonder how much I can get a Mig-15 or 17 for? Anyone...

khukuri
11-12-2005, 01:49 PM
4nzix looking for a flamewar?


this guys had some hilariuos comments'''


"The Chinese-built versions were dangerous, Teta said."


"
With the MiGs out of the sky, Teta now worries about Albania's creaking helicopters of Soviet make. "Whenever I hear their engine, I follow it until it lands," he said"

nagant_m44
11-12-2005, 02:13 PM
hmm albanian aircraft are having reliability problems? Thats what happens when all your aircraft are stolen.




















p-)

4nzix
11-12-2005, 02:34 PM
bwhahahahahhahahahah

Shqiptari
11-13-2005, 04:22 AM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/shkreli1/albaniaMIGS.jpg


Well duh cause they only flew like once a year since Albania never had any fuel for them. :-|QUOTE]

And you know this as the expert on Albania's AF that you are?? We got as much flight time if not more than any other East European country. Minimum was 50 hours...

[QUOTE]Albanian AF = worst AF in Europe by far, it was in the 50s and in the 70s and in the 90s and it is today.

Really?? And how do you know this?? In the 50s we were the ONLY country in the Balkans and most of Europe for that matter to have radar-equipped fighters with guided AAMs...MiG-19PMs...Italy could only dream of such things at the time. 60s and 70s we had an airforce equal to any of our neighbours. Want to ask the Italian pilots about it??...whey they didn't dare approach too close to Albania becasue every time they did..they'd have some MiGs on their tails. Want to ask the Italians about it how a lone MiG-15Bis managed to cross the Adriatic undetected and appear over one of their bases...and by the time their F-104s went up to intercept the MiG was already over the base? Or ask Yugoslav pilots about our encounters...they won't tell you much though...but sufficient to say they lost one of their planes to us and we lost none.

I'm not saying we were great...but up until a certain point we were more than our neighbours equals.

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70486_1.jpg

4nzix
11-13-2005, 12:24 PM
Dude shut up you idiot...........dont you see that almost every joke around here has "Albanian" in it????!!!??

Little Johnny
11-13-2005, 04:07 PM
And you know this as the expert on Albania's AF that you are?? We got as much flight time if not more than any other East European country. Minimum was 50 hours...
That's not true, during the Cold War Albanian pilots hardly flew at all. My uncle was a radar operator responsible for monitoring early warning radars in southern Yugoslavia. He says Albanian skies were almost always empty unlike Greek and Bulgarian skies.


In the 50s we were the ONLY country in the Balkans and most of Europe for that matter to have radar-equipped fighters with guided AAMs...MiG-19PMs...Italy could only dream of such things at the time.
Albania got a few Mig-19PM's, not in "the 50's" but in 1959. Big whoop, they would not have made much impact in any type of war, especially since Yugoslavia and Greece both had radar-equipped fighters at this time. Mig-19PM's were very poorly designed and the radar's range was so short it was almost useless (why do you think such few were built?) so Albania gave them to China a few years later.


60s and 70s we had an airforce equal to any of our neighbours.
Are you seriously suggesting that Albania, with a few Mig-15/17's and F-6's, had an airforce equal to Greece which had more than a hundred F-5's in the 60's and received 100+ F-4E's in 1974 and 40 Mirage F-1's in 1975, or Yugoslavia which had more than two hundred Mig-21's and hundreds of other planes, or Bulgaria, or Italy? This is nonsense.


Want to ask the Italians about it how a lone MiG-15Bis managed to cross the Adriatic undetected and appear over one of their bases
And that means what? Just because a country doesn't detect an aircraft flying at roof-top level doesn't mean anything. A Cessna flew from Germany to Moscow during the height of the Cold War without being intercepted, that doesn't mean the USSR didn't have a good airforce.


Or ask Yugoslav pilots about our encounters...they won't tell you much though...but sufficient to say they lost one of their planes to us and we lost none.
Again, pure nonsense. Yugoslavia never lost a single plane to Albania. Where are you getting this nonsense from?

Shqiptari
11-13-2005, 05:39 PM
That's not true, during the Cold War Albanian pilots hardly flew at all. My uncle was a radar operator responsible for monitoring early warning radars in southern Yugoslavia. He says Albanian skies were almost always empty unlike Greek and Bulgarian skies.


Well...and I know pilots in the AAF...;)


Albania got a few Mig-19PM's, not in "the 50's" but in 1959. Big whoop, they would not have made much impact in any type of war, especially since Yugoslavia and Greece both had radar-equipped fighters at this time.


First of all...Yugoslavia didn't get any MiG-21s until 1962...and those were the earliest kind. The MiG-19PM by comparison...by the accounts of those who served with them...was a superior plane in the interceptor role...FAR superior in that role than the MiG-21F-13s of the era. That was the reason China wanted these airplanes. At the time we got them...neither you, nor the Greeks, nor the Italians...had anything comparable.


Mig-19PM's were very poorly designed and the radar's range was so short it was almost useless (why do you think such few were built?) so Albania gave them to China a few years later.


Compared to intereptors of the era?? There was nothing better...at least not in the Eastern Block. Few were build becasue it was an aircraft with no future which was soon over taken...but at the time it was top of the line. Thats why China wanted them...and got them in the early 60s from us. The MiG-19 by the accounts of those flew them and operated them...was at the very least equal if not superior to the early MiG-21s..and this PM was far better in the interceptor role. The decision to get rid of them both in Albania and elsewhere was mostly political...


Are you seriously suggesting that Albania, with a few Mig-15/17's and F-6's, had an airforce equal to Greece which had more than a hundred F-5's in the 60's and received 100+ F-4E's in 1974 and 40 Mirage F-1's in 1975, or Yugoslavia which had more than two hundred Mig-21's and hundreds of other planes, or Bulgaria, or Italy? This is nonsense.


Greece is the exception...but by compariosn to Italy...we were equals. A "few" means over 130 MiG-17s and MiG-19s...Yugoslavia didn't have anything like 200 of anything in the 60s and 70s...the bulk of its MiG-21 force came in the very late 70s...while we had 130 MiG-17 and 19s from the mid-60s on...this was an airforce Yugoslavia could never have taken on until the 1980s. Until the late 70s Yugoslavia was numerically at a disatvantage...and the types of planes it had were not better than what we had or were far wrose.


And that means what? Just because a country doesn't detect an aircraft flying at roof-top level doesn't mean anything. A Cessna flew from Germany to Moscow during the height of the Cold War without being intercepted, that doesn't mean the USSR didn't have a good airforce.


It means how could pilots who don't fly at all pull off something like that?? The plane flew over the entire Adriatic at extremely low levels...without being detected...and the poped up over an Italian base. Ovbiously he knew what he was doing...and he was well aware of what the abilities of Italian air-defenses were and how to avoid them well enough.

The Cessna in Moscow has nothing to do with it...the plane was detected and intercepted when it entered Soviet airspace...no one bothered to stop it though. There's a difference.


Again, pure nonsense. Yugoslavia never lost a single plane to Albania. Where are you getting this nonsense from?

Accounts from Albanian pilots and AAF sources. The incident in question happened in the 80s...I'm not sure what type of plane was involved except that in publications of the time it was described as an "Orao"...but it was forced down and captured at the aerodrom in Kukes. The operation was carried out by the same Albanian pilot which forced down a US T-33 over Kucova AFB many years earlier...Gezdar Veipi...giving him two "kills". Pictures of the plane and the captured pilot (surrounded by the Alb pilots who captured him) were on Albanian magazines published by the MoD (though I havn't seen these pictures...but I have been told of them by former AAF pilots)...The pilot and plane were returned to Yugoslavia after 1 year.

A similar incident happened around the same time with an Albanian J-7. It flew into Kosovar airspace by accident after it was training with another J-7 near the border. It was intercepted by two Yugoslav MiG-21F-13s and was forced to be taken to an airbase and to land. The J-7 however only made a touch and go and took off again at full speed. The Yugo planes...obviously making a mistake...landed with him and deployed their break chutes while the J-7 flew up...they couldn't go up to intercept him again and he escaped. The plane was piloted by Luto Sadiku.

So maybe your uncle forgot a few things ;)

Maybe these pilots weren't so "untrained" after all ;) You wouldn't think they were so "untrained" who "didn't fly at all" if you'd seen MiG-19s flying between buildings with no more than 20m between them at 4th floor level and snaking their way through them...as 12 of them did over my neighbourhood in 1997.

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70588_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70592_1.jpg

FN SLS
11-13-2005, 06:54 PM
Albanians always were and will always be a joke. There is a reason everyone insults other nations as being like Albania. It is the lowest of the low. Heck, I will take Sudan or Nigeria over Albania. Albania is the only place in the world where shepherds will send their flocks into the known minefields and once a few sheep blow up, they stop, go ahead, dig up some mines and sell them back to the Serbs still fully functioning and armed. Very dangerous business. And they lose a lot of sheep that way. And then they wonder why they are so poor. Idiots.

FN SLS
11-13-2005, 07:01 PM
Compared to intereptors of the era?? There was nothing better...at least not in the Eastern Block. Few were build becasue it was an aircraft with no future which was soon over taken...but at the time it was top of the line. Thats why China wanted them...and got them in the early 60s from us. The MiG-19 by the accounts of those flew them and operated them...was at the very least equal if not superior to the early MiG-21s..and this PM was far better in the interceptor role. The decision to get rid of them both in Albania and elsewhere was mostly political...


*cough* Yeah.... I will take old rusted F4 Phantoms over a Mig-21. The Mig-21 is a enormous failure of an aircraft. So anything that is as "good" as it is must be ridiculously bad indeed. I pity the people who had to design that junkheap. Oh yeah: China can't build jack because (a) they are unoriginal and (b) just make very poor copies of other's designs. They may be skilled enough to be copycats and thieves but they don't do a half-decent job of reverse engineering and production. China's Air Force is a joke. All they have is numbers, their equipment sucks big time. I hope the Chinese in the country rebel against the government and overthrow it and their rich pawns in the so-called "economics development zones" or whatever they are called these days, (Aka: Hard line commies get to live almost like Westerners as long as they sell their souls to the eeeeeebil!)

Ugh, so tired. Must go to bed. Must get sleep. Must work out tomorrow.

Little Johnny
11-13-2005, 07:51 PM
The Mig-21 is a enormous failure of an aircraft. So anything that is as "good" as it is must be ridiculously bad indeed. I pity the people who had to design that junkheap.
How do you figure? The Mig-21 is one of the most successful airplanes ever built. Just because it is obsolete today doesn't mean it wasn't good in its time.


Well...and I know pilots in the AAF...
No you do not, liar.


The MiG-19PM by comparison...by the accounts of those who served with them...was a superior plane in the interceptor role...FAR superior in that role than the MiG-21F-13s of the era.
According to what kind of crazy logic do you claim that a Mig-19 is better than a Mig-21 just because someone put a radar with a 12 km range in it? Name one aspect in which it can outperform the Mig-21? The Mig-21 is much faster, can outmaneuver, outclimb the Mig-19, carries a greater payload, a longer range, and even the earliest Mig-21s had a radar with a range of more than twice the Mig-19PM's radar. The Mig-19PM was completely useless, I would rather have a regular Mig-19 with no radar and a cannon. There is a reason that so few countries got any and that the USSR didn't upgrade all their Mig-19s with radars.


but at the time it was top of the line. Thats why China wanted them...and got them in the early 60s from us.
Why hasn't it crossed your mind to wonder why Albania gave them to China if they were so good?


reece is the exception...but by compariosn to Italy...we were equals.
Let's see... Italy had more than 50 F-5's delivered by 1960. And a large number of F-104's soon after. And not to mention hundreds of indigenous jets. And you think Albania's AF was better than this?!


A "few" means over 130 MiG-17s and MiG-19s...Yugoslavia didn't have anything like 200 of anything in the 60s and 70s...the bulk of its MiG-21 force came in the very late 70s...while we had 130 MiG-17 and 19s from the mid-60s on...this was an airforce Yugoslavia could never have taken on until the 1980s. Until the late 70s Yugoslavia was numerically at a disatvantage...and the types of planes it had were not better than what we had or were far wrose.
Wrong! Albania only had 12 F-6's in the early 60's, and got 12 F-5's in 1962. The final shipment of F-6's didn't happen until 1971, by which time Yugoslavia had 150+ Mig-21's and by the late 70's something like 280 Mig-21's. At no point did Albania have even close to 130 jets. Not sure why you're even counting Mig-17s, it's about equal to a Galeb in a dogfight.


It means how could pilots who don't fly at all pull off something like that?? The plane flew over the entire Adriatic at extremely low levels...without being detected...and the poped up over an Italian base. Ovbiously he knew what he was doing...and he was well aware of what the abilities of Italian air-defenses were and how to avoid them well enough.
It doesn't take an exceptional pilot to fly a plane at low levels without being detected.


A similar incident happened around the same time with an Albanian J-7. It flew into Kosovar airspace by accident after it was training with another J-7 near the border. It was intercepted by two Yugoslav MiG-21F- 13s and was forced to be taken to an airbase and to land. The J-7 however only made a touch and go and took off again at full speed. The Yugo planes...obviously making a mistake...landed with him and deployed their break chutes while the J-7 flew up...they couldn't go up to intercept him again and he escaped. The plane was piloted by Luto Sadiku.
That's a great story, but not likely. If a pilot were to do what you claim he did, the airbase would have shot him down with AAA or a SAM. As for Luto Sadiku, he died in March 1982 when he flew his F-7 into a bird, so I don't think he's exactly a top gun.

Shqiptari
11-14-2005, 10:28 AM
No you do not, liar.


And you don't know your uncle...lier...lol


According to what kind of crazy logic do you claim that a Mig-19 is better than a Mig-21 just because someone put a radar with a 12 km range in it? Name one aspect in which it can outperform the Mig-21? The Mig-21 is much faster, can outmaneuver, outclimb the Mig-19, carries a greater payload, a longer range, and even the earliest Mig-21s had a radar with a range of more than twice the Mig-19PM's radar. The Mig-19PM was completely useless, I would rather have a regular Mig-19 with no radar and a cannon. There is a reason that so few countries got any and that the USSR didn't upgrade all their Mig-19s with radars.


The MiG-19PM...and the MiG-19 in general...especially its more capable Chinese version...was much better in all respects to any MiG-21 up until the mid-late 70s. The MiG-19PM itself was an all-weather interceptor...the early MiG-21s were nothing of the sort. The radar-missile combination of the MiG-19PM was MUCH better than the radars and missiles carried on the early MiG-21s. The radar of the MiG-21 F-13 was much inferior actually..and this according tot he pilots who flew both types. The MiG-19s and the J-7s sheer power was something no MiG-21 could match until the late 70s with the Bis. The MiG-19/J-6 had better performance all around with all early Migs until the late 70s. They outpowered them, out-accelerated them, and defenatly out-manuvered them.


Why hasn't it crossed your mind to wonder why Albania gave them to China if they were so good?



Political reasons...China wouldn't give us any new fighters if we didn't give them the MiG-19PMs. Why did China want them so badly??


Let's see... Italy had more than 50 F-5's delivered by 1960. And a large number of F-104's soon after. And not to mention hundreds of indigenous jets. And you think Albania's AF was better than this?!


Yes. F-104 was an inferior aircraft to both the MiG-21 and the MiG-19...by all accounts. Thats why Pakistan kept the MiG-19s in service until 2002...while the F-104s dissapeared decades ago.


Wrong! Albania only had 12 F-6's in the early 60's, and got 12 F-5's in 1962. The final shipment of F-6's didn't happen until 1971, by which time Yugoslavia had 150+ Mig-21's and by the late 70's something like 280 Mig-21's. At no point did Albania have even close to 130 jets. Not sure why you're even counting Mig-17s, it's about equal to a Galeb in a dogfight.


Albania had many more aircraft before then. We didn't just get MiG-19PMs from USSR...we also got standard MiG-19s (some of these have still survived today). In addition to them there were the 12 MiG-19PMs...plus 38 MiG-15s and then the MiG-17s. By the mid 60s we had well over 100 jet fighters.

Yugoslavia had nothing like 150 of anything in 1971. The first Mi-21s, the F-13s, started in 1962, 45 of themin total. This was followed in 1968 by PFM, 36 of them. And in 1970 came 12 Rs an 12 Ms. The rest of the planes wouldn't come until the late 70s.

By comparison though...a Chinese J-6 was more than the equal of any MiG-21 of the time until the late 70s. In the arean where these two planes would encounter each other...alwasy dog-fighting...the MiG-19/J-6 had the advantage of much better manuvrability, much better power. By Comparison the MiG-21F-13 didn't even come close...it was the earliest version of the MiG-21 and those who have flown both types...not just inthe AAF but also say the Egyptian AF...have said the MiG-19 is superior in every respect. The following version you had...the main version until the late 70s...was the PFM. This was a version which didn't even have an internal gun...which is good if you want to intercept an aircraft but not if you'r going to get into a dogfight with them. The MiG-19/J-6 had 3 30mm cannons...which on average required about 1 bullet hit to bring down a fighter-size target. This was a very powerful weapon for close-in dogfighting...and the MiG-21s of Yugoslavia up until the late 70s couldn't deal with them on an equal footing.

The MiG-17 is one of th most capable dogfighters out there...what Galeb?? MiG-17s were scoring kills on much more advanced aircraft than anything you ever had well into the 70s both in Vietnam and the Middle East. Why do you think they were kept flying for so long by both these forces?? They were excellent dogfighters...very manuvrable...very easy to fly and control...very powerful armament for dogfighting. The Mig-21 could outmanuver the big US F-4s...it could not compare to the MiG-19 nor the MiG-17s.

The MiG-17 in fact was liked more than the MiG-19 becasue it was a more easy to fly aircraft. The MiG-19 on the other hand was the hardest aircraft of the three to fly. It required a lot of skill from the pilot...but if the pilot had the skill...it become a very potent weapon. So if Albania managed to keep a large number of these aircraft flying for so long...with pilots who were experts in them...this means these pilots were no joke...they had to be good. Just ask the Pakistanis about it...

In more than 45 years of operation of the type...only 3 Albanian MiG-19/J-6s have been lost in the air to accidents. That is a remarkable achievement...especially for an aircraft as demanding and hard to fly as the Mig-19. Through 2 decades of no military assistance from anyone...we managed to keep flying most of the fleet at relativly high levels of flying...especially for an aircraft as demanding in maintanance as the MiG-19...that too is a remarkable achievement. Compare that to Yugoslavia and Serbia...which after a few years of being cut-off from their source in Russia...ended up with an air force where 80% of the planes were rusting away and inoperable.

Simply put...Yugoslavia put its reliance on the MiG-21...but up until the late 70s it had nothing more than some poorly capable and poorly armed interceptors which may have been good for other roles...but were no good if they were going to face highly manuvrable fighters in dog-fighting like the MiG-17s and MiG-19s.


That's a great story, but not likely. If a pilot were to do what you claim he did, the airbase would have shot him down with AAA or a SAM.

Ok Mr.expert...lol


As for Luto Sadiku, he died in March 1982 when he flew his F-7 into a bird, so I don't think he's exactly a top gun.

Ahh...your smarts come out! And what exactly does an accident of this type have to do with the pilots flying abilities? Or you don't even know what it is?? How does a pilot avoid being hit by a bird??

artistoli
11-14-2005, 12:11 PM
I don't think that the Mig-21 in general was a bad fighter. It was designed differently to western contemporaries, and was meant for different tactics. Basically it is a sound design. I think we can see that by looking at the upgraded MiG-21 Lancers that the Romanian AF use. They are very capable fighters, and have performed well in joint UK-Romanian excersises.

When slagging off the Albanian AF I think it would be good for people to remember how tiny Albania is, and how weak their economy is. I think the Albanian personel must be extremely resourceful and clever to have kept any planes and helicopters operational given the circumstances. Its easy for people in the west, and especially the US to mock, but they have such vast resources.

I say we should give the Albanians credit where its due.

Shqiptari
11-14-2005, 02:33 PM
Thanks. I'm not saying the MiG-21 was a bad fighter at all...I'm saying the types Yugoslavia had up until the very late 70s...the numbers it had...weren't enough to allow it to challange the Albanian AF. Our air force was quite sizable...and the types we had, MiG-19s and Mig-17s, with good pilots trained to take advantage of our territory (high mountains where they could hide by flying low)...were a considerable threat to anyone who would have tried to invade...certainly an air force like Yugoslavia's which was not much better even in the 80s. We saw something similar in Vietnam where the Vietnamese operating no more aircraft than we did...still managed to casue considerable damage to an AF 20 times the size and with aircraft far beyound what anyone in the region had even much later.

Shqiptari
11-14-2005, 07:18 PM
From what I understand the planes that will remain in use for some more years...until replacements are found...will be the An-2s, the CJ-6s, and a number of MiG-17UTIs for training.

Here are some pictures from the past:


http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/83597_1.jpg

These photos are copywritten and NOT to be redistributed elsewhere!!

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/71238_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/71237_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/71039_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70906_1.jpg

Landing on a grass field
http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70676_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70674_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70649_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70646_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70640_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70637_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70632_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70623_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70585_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70586_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70587_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70591_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70592_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70593_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70548_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70551_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70552_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70557_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70572_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70574_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70583_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70485_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70480_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70478_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70297_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/70282_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/69823_1.jpg

Something most sources on the AAF never mention or don't know about...we didn't just have 12 MiG-19PMs from USSR...we laso had plenty of MiG-19S which are never counted. In this picture a MiG-19S (right) and a J-6(left) side by side.
http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68676_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68629_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68618_1.jpg

MiG-21
http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68617_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68612_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68610_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68608_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68448_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68569_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68592_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68598_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68600_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68021_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/68257_1.jpg

An-2
http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/90840_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/90843_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/90844_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/6844_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/6845_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/6847_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/14332_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/23006_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/24636_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/24809_1.jpg

http://www.aero-web.org/database/aircraft/showimage.php?id=1658

http://www.aero-web.org/database/aircraft/showimage.php?id=1650

Local air-model club with the big boys
http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/28829_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/32671_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/33894_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/33918_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/36283_1.jpg

001
http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/39787_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/43235_1.jpg

http://www.medialb.com/forumi/foto/50194_1.jpg

Little Johnny
11-14-2005, 08:19 PM
I agree with Artistoli that Albania was a small country with a limited economy so we shouldn't expect it to be a powerhouse. But I disagree with Shqiptari that it came even close to being able to challenge either Yugoslavia, Greece, or Italy.

Here are all the jets what Albania had and when it got what (counting all jet aircraft):

1955: 26 Mig-15/F-2 and 12 Mig-15UTI/FT-2 delivered
1959: 12 Mig-19PM delivered
1962: 12 F-5's delivered
1965: 67 F-6's and an unknown number of FT-6's delievered between 1965 and 1971
1970: 12 F-7A delivered
1972: 8 FT-5 delivered

That is a total of 125 jets available in the early 70's, not counting the 12 Mig-19PM's because they were returned to China in 1965.

Yugoslavia in comparison had this (counting only Mig-21's):

1962: 45 Mig-21's delivered
1965: 9 Mig-21U's delivered
1967: 36 Mig-21PFM's delivered
1969: 9 Mig-21US's delivered
1970: 25 Mig-21M's, 12 Mig-21R's, and 35 Mig-21UM's delivered

That is a total of 171 Mig-21's in service in Yugoslavia by 1970. In addition to this, Yugoslavia had about 230 F-86 Sabres. 130 G-2's would enter the airforce starting in 1965, and 103 J-21's and 38 RJ-21's would enter service starting in 1969. That means, in 1970, there were a total of ~670 jets in service. This number would drop to ~450 with the retirement of the F-86's in the early 70's but would soon rise again with the introduction of the J-22. And that is not even counting the 200+ F-84 Thunderjets and several dozen T-33 jet trainers.

So that is 670 jets (of which 170 were Mig-21's) versus 125 jets in 1970. I hope you agree that Yugoslavia could've dealt with Albania with no problem at all. Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and Austria also all had airforces which were vastly inferior to the YuAF.

In the late 70's the balance would only shift even more toward Yugoslavia's favor with 106 more Mig-21Bis's delivered. Yugoslavia would have a total of 277 Mig-21's in service by the late 70's.

Now as for the Mig-19PM vs Mig-21:

The Mig-19PM's radar was called the RP-1U. This was one of the first airborne radars ever developed by the USSR and its performance was terrible. It had a range of 12 kms and a guiding range of 8 kms. In comparisson, the earliest Mig-21 had the RP-21 Safir radar, which was built from lessons learned in the RP-1U. It had a range of over twice the Mig-19PM's radar. Also, the AA-2 missiles the Mig-21 carried were vastly superior to the AA-1 missiles the Mig-19PM had. Yugoslav Migs carried heatseeking AA-2's which were fire and forget missiles. The pilot could fire multiple missiles at once. The AA-1 in contrast the pilot when he fired it had to guide the missile toward the target and would be unable to maneuver incase he had a missile coming at him or his radar lock would be lost.

Shqiptari
11-15-2005, 05:57 AM
But I disagree with Shqiptari that it came even close to being able to challenge either Yugoslavia, Greece, or Italy.


I didn't say we could challange anyone...I said we could DEFEND from attacks from them.


Here are all the jets what Albania had and when it got what (counting all jet aircraft):

1955: 26 Mig-15/F-2 and 12 Mig-15UTI/FT-2 delivered
1959: 12 Mig-19PM delivered
1962: 12 F-5's delivered
1965: 67 F-6's and an unknown number of FT-6's delievered between 1965 and 1971
1970: 12 F-7A delivered
1972: 8 FT-5 delivered


Nop...not at all. This is what I was talking about earlier. We also got plenty of MiG-19S from USSR in the late 50s along with those MiG-19PMs. I don't know the numbers...Those are never counted by these internet sources where you get your info from. Before the F-6s came...we also had MiG-19S...most of which were retired long ago becasue the Soviet MiG-19S was not a maintanance-friendly aircraft...which is why the MiG-19 dissapeared pretty quickly everywhere...while the F-6/J-6 continues to this day in many other countries.


Yugoslavia in comparison had this (counting only Mig-21's):

1962: 45 Mig-21's delivered
1965: 9 Mig-21U's delivered
1967: 36 Mig-21PFM's delivered
1969: 9 Mig-21US's delivered
1970: 25 Mig-21M's, 12 Mig-21R's, and 35 Mig-21UM's delivered

That is a total of 171 Mig-21's in service in Yugoslavia by 1970. In addition to this, Yugoslavia had about 230 F-86 Sabres. 130 G-2's would enter the airforce starting in 1965, and 103 J-21's and 38 RJ-21's would enter service starting in 1969. That means, in 1970, there were a total of ~670 jets in service. This number would drop to ~450 with the retirement of the F-86's in the early 70's but would soon rise again with the introduction of the J-22. And that is not even counting the 200+ F-84 Thunderjets and several dozen T-33 jet trainers.

So that is 670 jets (of which 170 were Mig-21's) versus 125 jets in 1970. I hope you agree that Yugoslavia could've dealt with Albania with no problem at all. Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and Austria also all had airforces which were vastly inferior to the YuAF.


Not quite. Besides the MiG-21s...the rest of the Yugo AF at the time was far below the capabilities of dealing with the aircraft operated by the AAF. The Sabre fleet was mostly of the F-86D type...an all-rocket interceptor with no guns...and with unguided rockets it could only be useful in targeting big slow flying bombers. Not an aircraft useful for much of anything else. The F-84s were used primarely for the air-ground role...and these were aircraft which were outclassed by the MiG-15 even by the time of the Korean War. The J-1 and G-2 were also mostly ground attackers...and also not much improvements over the F-84s. These were aircraft which even the MiG-15 would have no trouble dealing with.

The primary...and really only useful air-air dogfighter/interceptor of Yugoslavia was the MiG-21...and these early versions as I said weren't really capable of getting into a dogfight with the much more manuvrable MiG-17s and MiG-19s.

Our fighter force on the other hand was primarely for air-air...for defensive purposes...it would have had no problem dealing with F-84s and G-2s and J-1s in the air-ground role.

And even if we were outnumbered...this was a defensive force of mainly air-air dogfighters...while most of your planes were light ground-attack planes...not something that really compares too well with each other.

And you seem to exagerate a bit...aircraft started to be introduced in 1969 doesn't mean that by 1970 all 130 and 103 of them were in service!


The Mig-19PM's radar was called the RP-1U. This was one of the first airborne radars ever developed by the USSR and its performance was terrible. It had a range of 12 kms and a guiding range of 8 kms. In comparisson, the earliest Mig-21 had the RP-21 Safir radar, which was built from lessons learned in the RP-1U. It had a range of over twice the Mig-19PM's radar. Also, the AA-2 missiles the Mig-21 carried were vastly superior to the AA-1 missiles the Mig-19PM had. Yugoslav Migs carried heatseeking AA-2's which were fire and forget missiles. The pilot could fire multiple missiles at once. The AA-1 in contrast the pilot when he fired it had to guide the missile toward the target and would be unable to maneuver incase he had a missile coming at him or his radar lock would be lost.

The MiG-21F-13s had a far more primitive radar. Theoretical maximum range has little releavence here since the Mig-21F-13s radar never achieved anything of the sort. It was little more than a radio-locator to begin with...and it did not offer the MiG-21F-13 an all-weather capability. It was strictly day-good weather fighter. By comparison the radar of the MiG-19PM offered much better capabilities. It also offered beam-riding guidance to the missiles...The early versions of the AA-2 were abismal at best. The AA-1 was no good either when it came to close combat...the MiG-19PM certainly was no digfighter but a pure interceptor. The problem is...so were the early versions of the MiG-21 which is what Yugoslavia mostly had up until the MiG-21Bis. These were aircraft which were NOT equipped for dogfighting and cloud barely do so. The MiG-21PFs were armed ONLY with two AA-2 missiles...the early kind which proved VERY inadequate in all the conflicts they participated...which led to the re-introduction of the gun on the MiG-21. These were missiles which essencially had to be launched at about 2km range from the rear of an enemy aircraft...and which more often than not failed to get anywhere near the enemy aircraft and if he was manuvering then forget it. And when you use up both your missiles...you'r left with no gun...and nothing to do but go home. The MiG-19PM was the same way...but the MiG-19S and the F-6...those were armed with 3 30mm cannons...1 bullet of which was enough to bring down any fighter...and they were highly manuvrable aircraft and very good in dogfighting...which the early MiG-21s were not. And the MiG-17 was an even better dogfighter...

So in essence...the AAF was something the Yugo AF could not swallow...it didn't have the teeth for it.

Shqiptari
11-15-2005, 06:03 AM
and an unknown number of FT-6's

Another correction...no FT-6s were ever delivered.

orion84
04-10-2009, 07:31 AM
Well duh cause they only flew like once a year since Albania never had any fuel for them. :|

Albanian AF = worst AF in Europe by far, it was in the 50s and in the 70s and in the 90s and it is today.


Why?? why???

you are an albanian military expert??? stop the crap! just say: i dont like albanians.... is very simple.....

xav
04-10-2009, 07:41 AM
Wow you do realize this thread was 3.5 years old?

Anyways, has AAF replaced any of its jets since 2005?

orion84
04-10-2009, 08:42 AM
Wow you do realize this thread was 3.5 years old?

Anyways, has AAF replaced any of its jets since 2005?


thanks for remeber me that Im a junior member...

btw, a heard that Turkey will bring to us 5-6 Phantoms in 2010...!!!
.....for me is like a dream this news....

I wish that be true...(is so sad that we have.....5 helicopters AB 204 & 6 AB 2005!!!... for humanitarian purposes only!!!?????

tea drinker
04-10-2009, 11:11 AM
Wow you do realize this thread was 3.5 years old?


Albanians never forget p-)

Some really fantastic photos there nonetheless.

Adax
04-10-2009, 12:09 PM
btw, a heard that Turkey will bring to us 5-6 Phantoms in 2010...!!!
.....for me is like a dream this news....

Hmmm... what do you mean by "bring" ? Donate? If so, is this even possible? I I mean, will those Phantoms be in good condition to fly next few years?
Wouldn't be better for Albania to ask Greek Airforce to protect its airspace? Since Albania is in NATO...

SrB-23Q
04-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Wow you do realize this thread was 3.5 years old?

Anyways, has AAF replaced any of its jets since 2005?

you mean since 1965 p-)

orion84
04-11-2009, 03:34 AM
Hmmm... what do you mean by "bring" ? Donate? If so, is this even possible? I I mean, will those Phantoms be in good condition to fly next few years?
Wouldn't be better for Albania to ask Greek Airforce to protect its airspace? Since Albania is in NATO...


yeah, sorry, donate is the exact word....

I hope that AAF just have some aircrafts.... because Im so sad that we hawe only 10-14 helicopters for bull****t operations...:|

Greece??? haahha, is so funny.... ......is a long long story...

:bash:

fish_b
04-11-2009, 08:06 AM
To sum it all up i just found out that Albania had/has an airforce.

Oh and dude Bulgaria,Yugoslavia(Serbia),Italy,Grece,Turkey,Romania,Hungary and so each one of these countries flew more planes a week then albania did in a year.

Oh and taking down a Cesna si...such major achievement and requires such a lot of Albanian skill and brain its shoking thyre not an empire by now. but not by lack of attempts.

orion84
04-11-2009, 10:47 AM
To sum it all up i just found out that Albania had/has an airforce.

Oh and dude Bulgaria,Yugoslavia(Serbia),Italy,Grece,Turkey,Romania,Hungary and so each one of these countries flew more planes a week then albania did in a year.

Oh and taking down a Cesna si...such major achievement and requires such a lot of Albanian skill and brain its shoking thyre not an empire by now. but not by lack of attempts.

WE DONT HAVE ANY AIRCRAFTS!!!! do you understand????
thats why am so f***g hungry....

btw, on the comunist period, dude thats another story....

Cesna??? ok, we are on 2009 and this is some ridiculus.....

cheers....(and dont hate so much albanians....) p-)

fish_b
04-11-2009, 01:10 PM
I was not the one bragging about the Cesna ! Someone else posted the reported "kills"/"intercepts"....

Mate
04-11-2009, 01:42 PM
I heard that Albania is getting some F-35........p-)

fish_b
04-11-2009, 01:43 PM
Of course after romania gets its 300 F-22-C's Multy layered stealth crafts. :D :lol:

Switek
04-11-2009, 01:48 PM
This is a thread where we can meet many banned users. Seems that will bring some new ones....:roll:

V.I.D.
04-12-2009, 02:01 AM
This is a thread where we can meet many banned users. Seems that will bring some new ones....:roll:

I agree. And even the very idea of reviving the three year old thread, what is up with that? :cantbeli: Someone please close this thread, it serves absolutely no purpose.

21stArmada
04-24-2009, 02:22 PM
Just a quick addition to the thread, there are quite a few Mig 17 and 19 as well as at least 1 Mig 21 in full operational order with log books and regular maintenance. The agency responsible for the sale is:
“MEICO” prane Ministrise se Mbrojtjes
Rr “Deshmoret e 4 Shkurtit” Nr 5 Tirane / Shqiperi
Tel / fax ++ 355 4 227944

Quick question: On a logistics point of view, if you wanted to export this on the West (as I am sure there are probably a lot of collectors that might be interested) what documentation would one need (once it is *****ped of its military hardware ofcourse)? Any ideas?

*zeven*
04-24-2009, 03:15 PM
first i had in mind to say what i think about the Albanian airforce. but i actually feel sorry for the entire country so much, i really cant say a negativ word.

cheers