Major overhaul eyed for Army

[Beowulf]

By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
www.washingtontimes.com
Published February 3, 2004



A U.S. Army that for decades has fought in brigades and battalions is taking on new-age terms such as "units of action" and "modules."
The new terminology is the brainchild of Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, the once-retired former "snake-eating" commando who was reactivated last summer by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to remake the Army, from tail to tooth.
Mr. Rumsfeld could not get the Army he wanted out of the last leadership team. Now, the task has fallen to his handpicked Army chief of staff to turn the 480,000-soldier force into a quicker, more flexible juggernaut.
Gen. Schoomaker, after a series of meetings with Mr. Rumsfeld, his staff and officers in the field, already has come up with a general plan to mix and match his 10 active divisions, according to confidential Army documents obtained by The Washington Times.
The first battlefield laboratory is the vaunted 3rd Infantry Division, based in Georgia. Gen. Schoomaker is remixing and adding to the basic building block of most divisions: three brigades of about 6,000 soldiers, armed with 60-ton Abrams M-1A tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Apache attack helicopters.
All the people and systems will stay, the documents show. But they will be broken up into "brigade-like maneuver units of action with assigned support and service support elements to provide ... combatant commanders more deployable/flexible forces for employment."
Each "unit of action" will be outfitted with support units -- such as military police -- that today are added at the last moment before deploying to war. The idea of backfitting from the start is to cut down on the time it takes to "round out" a deploying division.
The documents state that the 3rd Infantry's reorganization should be in place by the time it might be needed again in Iraq in 2005. The division led the Army's drive from Kuwait to Baghdad in Operation Iraqi Freedom and then returned home to Georgia.
"Third Infantry Division reorganization into five maneuver UAs [units of action], combat ready, trained and prepared to execute the OIF 3 [Operation Iraqi Freedom] rotation, or any other mission assigned," the Army papers said.
Gen. Schoomaker appreciates speed, deception and agility. His previous command was U.S. Special Operations Command, whose covert warriors specialize in the kind of unconventional warfare needed to win the war on terrorism.
Gen. Schoomaker told the House Armed Services Committee last week that, "We are in very serious moods right now, looking at modulizing the Army, standardizing it, developing an Army that's more lethal, more agile, more capable of meeting the current and future operating environment tasks."
In all, Gen. Schoomaker is taking the 10-division Army from 33 to 48 combat brigades.
Another window into Gen. Schoomaker's thinking is his series of talks to officers in the field. The general seems to spend more time at military schools, training centers and combat units than he does in his "E-Ring" office at the Pentagon. The Times obtained an officer's notes from one such session.
Gen. Schoomaker's spokesman declined to comment. "I won't comment on the validity of e-mails or conversations that may have occurred between any Army senior leader in a conference or meeting," Lt. Col. Michael J. Negard said.
The notes reveal the kind of feisty innovator Mr. Rumsfeld was looking for to fundamentally change how the Army deploys and fights. The new Army will become an expeditionary force like the Marine Corps, but with more firepower to fight large land wars.
At his talk, Gen. Schoomaker made a number of frank assessments about the state of the military-industrial complex, according to the officer's notes.
•"America underfunds its military," and the industry base cannot surge production of urgently needed equipment, such as improved armored Humvee utility vehicles for soldiers in Iraq.
•Army Personnel Command, which regulates the assignment of troops, has many problems. "May have to take it completely down in order to build it back up."
•Berets, new head gear introduced by retired Gen. Eric Shinseki, will stay. But commanders do have flexibility to allow soldiers to wear soft caps when appropriate. Meanwhile, Gen. Schoomaker is "relooking purpose and value of Class A" uniform -- the coat-and-tie ensemble. He will order all battle-dress uniforms, the ones worn on deployment, to feature the American flag on the right shoulder "to emphasize expeditionary mind-set."
•The ambush of Jessica Lynch's 507th Maintenance Company in Iraq has become a "defining report card," which the general compared to sluggish deployment of Apaches to Albania in 1999 during the Kosovo conflict.
(Pfc. Lynch's supply company was ambushed by Iraqi guerrillas in an area that was supposed to be behind enemy lines. The attack exposed flaws in the training and equipping of noncombat arms soldiers. As a result, the Army has moved to toughen recruit training for the support branch to ensure the soldiers have better combat skills before deploying.)
•Many three- and four-star officers cannot think strategically, yet many platoon lieutenants can.
•On transformation, "As far as I'm concerned, there is not a damn thing sacred about what we are doing in the Army except our values. ... I'm often asked, how far can I move the Army? I tell them as far as I can. The Army is tremendously resilient. You can't fool around on the margins if we're going to change. We're going to move very quickly."
On that front, Gen. Schoomaker is keeping his word.
Already, the general is taking down artillery battalions and replacing them with military police units needed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Gen. Schoomaker will likely showcase his new Army this summer.

Copyright © 2004 News World Communications, Inc.

[Uncle Sam]

Sounds like this guy doesn't have his head in his ass, like so many others !

[California Joe]

Bet HE has a Delta patch.

[FuturePara]

Since when was the 3ID in Georgia?

[FuturePara]

Nevermind...I forgot about Fort Stewart :cantbeli: :bash:

[usa320]

Ghey. Battalion and Division and brigades are tradition. Switching to these new fangled politically correct terms will only make the army organization more confusing. So 3rd infantry division would be "unit of action 3"

Ghey.

[FallenAngel]

Is it just me....or is the Army sounding more and more like fitting the traditional Marine Corps role?

[FallenAngel]

Ghey. Battalion and Division and brigades are tradition. Switching to these new fangled politically correct terms will only make the army organization more confusing. So 3rd infantry division would be "unit of action 3"

Ghey.

I think it's more like making each Brigade a mini-division. Ya know...sorta like a MEU p-)

[Uncle Sam]

I say...Whatever works !

[Beowulf]

Ghey. Battalion and Division and brigades are tradition. Switching to these new fangled politically correct terms will only make the army organization more confusing. So 3rd infantry division would be "unit of action 3"

Ghey.

Did you read the article?

It's not just a name change. It's more like taking what used to be Div. assets, DivArty for example, and breaking it up and attaching them down to the brigade level. Also the support units will be attached permanently, allowing for faster deployment times.

[California Joe]

He visited my command. I got to meet him. Seems like he really has his **** together. You guys that are currently in think so? Nothing wrong with a faster, deadlier Army.

[Royal]

The Kampfgruppe/Battle Group concept is nothing new. To an extent both the USMC's MEU's and 3 Commando Bde are examples.

It would be nice to see it implimented properly. The problem is that some elements are not really needed except in war fighting Ops (Arty for example) so they need to train in 2 roles; their own and as auxillary infantry - something they rarely do well due, IMHO, to lack of training time and resources.

Good luck to him.

[Tane Angle]

Personally, seems ok by me. And about the MEU(SOC)/Marine similarity, you got it. Those Marines are smart folks. Right TP?

It puts division level assets at the brigade level, thus eliminating part of the complexities of the chain of command. And a MEU(SOC) gets in there fast. There's no sense in having a division if it takes too long to get there.

California Joe, from what I know of him, he's a terriffic guy, real bright and for a man with as many stars as he, he's pretty humble. I've met him once or twice, always very impressed. The kind of leader than people want to work with, I think. Anyways, have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[mustamato]

Sounds a little like the brigades (mini-divisions) that has been used in
Finland, because of the difficult terrain where a ordinary division is too
big. But with a little more different/modern equipment of course.

http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/maavoimat/kokoonpanot/images/jpr_en.gif

Strength:

about 5300 men
about 900 vehicles

Examples of materiel:

disposable recoilless rifles about 3500
anti-tank missile launchers 22
heavy mortars 36
field artillery pieces 36
anti-aircraft guns 18

[crazyman]

they are basically normal maneuver brigades, just with some more tail. take the normal BCT (regt. of infantry, bn of arty, plt of MPs, engineers) and add in some more of the usual service support units, and bingo. at least thats how i understand it from articles like the aabove which abound in various army periodicals

[James]

Very much like a USMC MEB (MEU's are based on an infantry battalion, while a MEB is based on an infantry regiment of 3 battalions).

The biggest difference appears to be that the new Army units will have a lot more firepower - the 3rd ID by itself has (I believe) more MBTs than the entire USMC.

[dahlia]

What about Army National Guard? Would that go through the same changes?

[Royal]

@ Dahlia - 'My war gone by, I miss it so'. Strange man, strange book.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/avatars/87736087640219f5c661b5.jpg

[FallenAngel]

The biggest difference appears to be that the new Army units will have a lot more firepower - the 3rd ID by itself has (I believe) more MBTs than the entire USMC.

You're right. The USMC only has about 350 MBTs on the books, while the 3rd ID has over 400 I believe.

[marktigger]

saw something about this last weekend. Rumsfeld wants to create more infantry as well by converting larger bits of the logistic chain to civilian contractors ie Haliburton. And re-role the loggies as infantry.

[crazyman]

actyally, that was shoe-makers' idea. plans on converting something like 10,000 jobs over to contractors to open up slots to create a few more BCT's. also some talk about taking several FA and ENG battalions and converting them to MP's. reasing being that MP-style "presence" patrols are just about the only thing combat arms troops are doing nowadays. As a future redleg, not too sure how i feel about this. Personally I'd rather see some sort of mini-school come out of this. Teach all combat arms troops a thing or three about vehicle/dismounted patrolling in built up areas, some CQB training, etc...and maybe change up the TOE of these same combat arms somewhat.

[marktigger]

from time to time the British military will re-role troops from artillery and engineers to light infantry to cover things like Northern Ireland for short periods the process takes them out of role for about 18months. one of the reasons we probably didn't take MLRS to the gulf this time was the main regt was on an infantry tour in Belfast. Might be a better solution than total re-roleing. Just means some flexibility is needed.

[dahlia]

@ Royal,
You're right. The author is pretty strange, but I thought it was a great read!

[Durandal]

Sounds pretty solid to me too.

[Tane Angle]

The move to give supporting work to contractors is a way of getting around the legal constraints on the size of the military. And who says we don't need a bigger military? :roll: Have a good one, just some thoughts...

[11F5S]

actyally, that was shoe-makers' idea. plans on converting something like 10,000 jobs over to contractors to open up slots to create a few more BCT's. also some talk about taking several FA and ENG battalions and converting them to MP's. reasing being that MP-style "presence" patrols are just about the only thing combat arms troops are doing nowadays. As a future redleg, not too sure how i feel about this. Personally I'd rather see some sort of mini-school come out of this. Teach all combat arms troops a thing or three about vehicle/dismounted patrolling in built up areas, some CQB training, etc...and maybe change up the TOE of these same combat arms somewhat.

As an aspiring "future redleg" you ought to show a little respect for General Schoomaker by referring to him correctly.

[11F5S]

The move to give supporting work to contractors is a way of getting around the legal constraints on the size of the military. And who says we don't need a bigger military? :roll: Have a good one, just some thoughts...

It also does away with having to baby sit more 2nd El Tees. :lol:


I'm all for using contractors......soldiers should be soldiering not tending to the post landscaping. It is a waste of time and money....hire civilians to mow the weeds and direct traffic.... a soldier should be soldiering not gardening....does Ford Motor Company use assemblyline workers to mow lawns or clean toilets or do they hire people or contractors to do it? It's utterly rediculous to use an SF NCO or a PVT in the 82nd to pick up pine cones along Gruber Road.

[XASA]

The older I get, the more I realize that the more things change, the more they seem to be the same. Back in the 1950s the U.S. Army initiated the same concept for different reasons under what they called the "Pentomic" Division. They reverted back to the more traditional division structure in the early 1960s.


"The major tactical reorganization to meet the new conditions began in 1956 when the first pentomic divisions and missiles commands were set up to furnish the mobile units and fire support deemed necessary for nuclear war. The old triangular infantry and airborne divisions were replaced by an organization consisting of five battle groups, each a self-contained force capable of independent operations. Manned by 13,500 men instead of about 17,000, the pentomic divisions were directly supported by artillery and missiles that could employ conventional or nuclear warheads, while the heavier long-range missiles were concentrated in the missile commands. The armored divisions required less drastic overhauling, since they were better adapted to the requisite pattern of mobility and dispersion. By 1958 all of the Regular Army divisions had been reorganized; the National Guard and Reserve divisions did not complete their change-over until 1960."

From "THE ARMY AND THE NEW LOOK" Extracted from AMERICAN MILITARY HISTORY, ARMY HISTORICAL SERIES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF OF MILITARY HISTORY UNITED STATES ARMY

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/AMH-26.htm

[crazyman]

actually i think Shoomakers' a helluva general. had a chance to read over some of his thoughts, both on entering is current job, and when he was on the snake-eating side of the house. Do belive they call this being in the right place at the right time: unconventional leader during unconventional times.

and trigger, i couldnt agree with you more.

[Johnnyringo]

I've got an idea for reshaping the Army... Segregate boot camp, one for men and one for women.... give all MOS's basic combat training BEYOND bootcamp...Require all soldiers to qualify on their rifles once a year... RAISE the PFT standards and the enlistment standards to include high school diplomas. And then just for the hell of it, mae them actually earn the right to wear a beret...

You can ride in vehicles that look like Marines... You can organize yourselves into taskgroups that look like Marines... and you could even build ships to float to the battle like Marines... but sadly you'll only just end up being WANNABE'S.


This should get a good response.

[James]

I've got an idea for reshaping the Army... Segregate boot camp, one for men and one for women.... give all MOS's basic combat training BEYOND bootcamp...Require all soldiers to qualify on their rifles once a year... RAISE the PFT standards and the enlistment standards to include high school diplomas. And then just for the hell of it, mae them actually earn the right to wear a beret...

You can ride in vehicles that look like Marines... You can organize yourselves into taskgroups that look like Marines... and you could even build ships to float to the battle like Marines... but sadly you'll only just end up being WANNABE'S.


This should get a good response.

Dude, that's kinda harsh.

[Jack Mehoff]

I've got an idea for reshaping the Army... Segregate boot camp, one for men and one for women.... give all MOS's basic combat training BEYOND bootcamp...Require all soldiers to qualify on their rifles once a year... RAISE the PFT standards and the enlistment standards to include high school diplomas. And then just for the hell of it, mae them actually earn the right to wear a beret...

You can ride in vehicles that look like Marines... You can organize yourselves into taskgroups that look like Marines... and you could even build ships to float to the battle like Marines... but sadly you'll only just end up being WANNABE'S.


This should get a good response.

Yes, the Army have segregated training for combat armed people. Fort Sill, Fort Benning, Fort Knox are pretty much all male basic training.

p.s. Too bad people who do most of the fighting in Afghan and Iraq are Army. The 3 soldiers in Time Magazine are Army :lol: and last time i checked USMC "borrows" a lot of equipments and facilities from the Army. USMC Force Recon also receive training from Army Ranger and Army airborne schools. Wannabe you said?

[Jack Mehoff]

And then just for the hell of it, mae them actually earn the right to wear a beret...

This is the only thing i don't understand about you jarheads.

USMC wants to believe that every Marines have equal ability which is farther the truth. Is a PFC Marine truck driver has the same ability like a USMC E-8 Force Recon? NO. Is a PFC Army truck driver has the same ability like an E-8 Army Ranger? NO.

Then how come it's OK for the USMC to have that kind of mentality but it's not OK for the Army to do it? Brainwash?

[haze99]

This seems to be the same thing the USAF went to in the mid 1990's. The Expedtionary Air Wing (AEW)
The USAF after Desert Storm in 1991, began to rethink how their Wings and Groups were shaped. Plus, the time it took to deploy and what was need to fight.
The new Army unit, won't be the same as the AEW. (the concept is the same)

[Argyll]

What about ..........if it ain't broke...........don't fix it?

[11F5S]

What about ..........if it ain't broke...........don't fix it?

My grandfather's horse and wagon wasn't broken, but he replaced it with a truck and left his competitors gasping his exhaust fumes.

There are those who are satisfied with the status quo, and there are those who strive to improve themselves and the world around them.

[Royal]

What about ..........if it ain't broke...........don't fix it?

Who says it ain't broke? ;)

[Ballistic]

Is giving military jobs (such as logistics and whatever that job entails or whatever) to civilian contractors a good idea ? If yes or no, can someone explain to me why ?

[11F5S]

Yes....example the US uses commercial airlines to transport troops to and from the war zone....it's less costly than doing it themselves.

[crazyman]

never been a believer in the "if it aint broke, dont fix it" concept. how about "why wait til it breaks to fix it?"

[Haiw]

I'm more of a "let's break it so other people can fix it" type of guy... p-)

[FallenAngel]

I've got an idea for reshaping the Army... Segregate boot camp, one for men and one for women.... give all MOS's basic combat training BEYOND bootcamp...Require all soldiers to qualify on their rifles once a year... RAISE the PFT standards and the enlistment standards to include high school diplomas. And then just for the hell of it, mae them actually earn the right to wear a beret...

You can ride in vehicles that look like Marines... You can organize yourselves into taskgroups that look like Marines... and you could even build ships to float to the battle like Marines... but sadly you'll only just end up being WANNABE'S.


This should get a good response.

Dude, that's kinda harsh.

Agreed- a bit harsh, but IMHO it seems true.


Yes, the Army have segregated training for combat armed people. Fort Sill, Fort Benning, Fort Knox are pretty much all male basic training.

p.s. Too bad people who do most of the fighting in Afghan and Iraq are Army. The 3 soldiers in Time Magazine are Army and last time i checked USMC "borrows" a lot of equipments and facilities from the Army. USMC Force Recon also receive training from Army Ranger and Army airborne schools. Wannabe you said?

But it's not segregated for Non combat MOSs.

PS- who's the fighting in Afghanistan is a political decision if nothing else IMHO. As for Iraq, the Marines are an assault force, not an occupying force. That's the Army's job. As for "borrowing" equipment and training facilities- in all fairness Jack, the Army is only roughly twice the size of the Marine Corps now, but get FIVE times the yearly budget. The Marines actually pride themselves on this abit- 'doing more with less' it seems.


USMC wants to believe that every Marines have equal ability which is farther the truth. Is a PFC Marine truck driver has the same ability like a USMC E-8 Force Recon? NO. Is a PFC Army truck driver has the same ability like an E-8 Army Ranger? NO.

No, you're right. But I am willing to bet that the Marine truck driver has better odds of surviving than the Army driver if, say, his convoy takes a wrong turn and ends up behind enemy lines. :lol:

[11F5S]

Mines, RPGs, and AK rounds don't know a Marine from a girl scout.....they are equal opportunity killers...they do not discriminate

[Dmitri]

Question for those in know: active duty non-combat Army soldiers don't qualify at least once a year? If not, that's of course screwed up

You can ride in vehicles that look like Marines... You can organize yourselves into taskgroups that look like Marines... and you could even build ships to float to the battle like Marines... but sadly you'll only just end up being WANNABE'S.
You really think Army is just trying to copy from Marines? The fact that wars require more and more mobile means of delivery doesn't mean Army needs to stay behind. Just don't get jelous. I hope you don't consider yourself elite either.

The Marines actually pride themselves on this abit- 'doing more with less' it seems.
Exactly, since they use so many Army and Navy facilities, why do they need more? And wasn't that vertical takeoff jet designed by Marines?

[Johnnyringo]

Hopefully the new changes will be for the better, but it seems to me we are always equipping for the last war we fought... trying to get it right after the fact.