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John M.
11-06-2005, 05:29 PM
I've heard that at one point the IDF used silenced 10/22s for shooting out the knees of riot leaders. Do you have pictures of these IDF rifles?

Also, I've heard that .22s were used for dispatching guard dogs. I'd appreciate any other information on the use of this round in combat.

FozzieBear
11-06-2005, 05:37 PM
I've heard that at one point the IDF used silenced 10/22s for shooting out the knees of riot leaders. Do you have pictures of these IDF rifles?

Also, I've heard that .22s were used for dispatching guard dogs. I'd appreciate any other information on the use of this round in combat.there were pictures of supressed .22's in the hands of IDF soldiers on the old board... but they were lost in the transfer i think.

Spike_Kojima
11-06-2005, 06:21 PM
A bit small but there are the only i could find.

Ruger 10/22 Suppressed Sniper Rifle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/Spike_Kojima/Israeli_sniper_rifles_250.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/Spike_Kojima/Israeli_Sniper6_250.jpg

Civilian sniper with the Ruger 10/22 sniper rifle (right), Designated Marksman (middle) and a spotter (left) during the Israeli-Palestinian clashes in the Occupied Territories May 2000.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/Spike_Kojima/Israeli_ruger-2_250v.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/Spike_Kojima/Israeli_ruger-3_250.jpg

Operator armed with the Ruger 10/22 Suppressed sniper rifle during the Israeli-Palestinian clashes in the Occupied Territories, October 2000.


The Ruger 10/22 is a fully suppressed 0.22 caliber semi auto sniper rifle with a 10 rounds rotary magazine.

In 1987, the Intifada - the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories - broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.

The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon's mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a "Hush Puppy" weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it's deployment was cut down dramatically.

California Joe
11-06-2005, 06:36 PM
My pal Fred that was a SEAL in Vietnam told me they used suppressed .22s also.

TacoDelRio
11-06-2005, 06:55 PM
High Standard Military model with integral suppressor:
http://www.webcom.com/ctka/images/hi-stndr.gif
Sorry, it's the only image I could find.

There is a company out there who is making ones for civilian sale. About $2500.00 gets you a neat, quiet, handy piece of working history. I'd love one, but I'm in California.

Gauntlet
11-06-2005, 06:57 PM
Well... if it punches holes in things, it works.

GoSka37
11-06-2005, 07:23 PM
Wasn't the Mark22 "Hush Puppy" a .22? I'm probably wrong but... meh

TacoDelRio
11-06-2005, 07:28 PM
Wasn't the Mark22 "Hush Puppy" a .22? I'm probably wrong but... meh

One of many.

Lots of suppressed weapons get that nickname.

John M.
11-06-2005, 07:33 PM
Thanks. (Great photos.)

kutter
11-06-2005, 07:44 PM
Wasn't the Mark22 "Hush Puppy" a .22? I'm probably wrong but... meh

The Mark22 Mod 0 "Hush Puppy" used by the SEALs was actually a 9mm (a modified S&W Model 39 to be exact), not a .22.

GoSka37
11-06-2005, 08:14 PM
The Mark22 Mod 0 "Hush Puppy" used by the SEALs was actually a 9mm (a modified S&W Model 39 to be exact), not a .22.

Alright... I knew i was wrong :S Thanks!

speckfire
11-06-2005, 08:52 PM
The Russians have one too. It was used against the Chechens http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html

TacoDelRio
11-06-2005, 10:20 PM
The Russians have one too. It was used against the Chechens http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html

Forgot that one!

banksster
11-07-2005, 12:04 AM
Slightly off topic, but here is a really cool silenced .22 that some police forces use: http://www.snipercentral.com/greenhornet.htm

John M.
11-07-2005, 01:45 AM
Check this out:

http://www.superiortacticalsolutions.com/Custom%2010-22%20(Desert)%20-%2002%20-%20Comp1.jpg

GoSka37
11-07-2005, 01:51 AM
mmm Damn nice... What company makes it?

John M.
11-07-2005, 01:55 AM
I saw the photo at http://www.superiortacticalsolutions.com/

sir-chimp
11-07-2005, 02:02 AM
The Russians have one too. It was used against the Chechens http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html

I knew a guy who did this

Smart guys, they used plastic bottles with tiny holes in the bottom and attached to rifle's muzzle as silencers!

He would use it as a varmit gun inside the city limits. Awsome guy, was a marine vet of vietnam war. He is a pretty bad ass guy, but really modest about it.

Otsoa
11-07-2005, 02:49 AM
mmm Damn nice... What company makes it?

Looks like a Ruger 10/22 reciever with an aftermarket bull barrel and synthetic stock. Definately not a silenced firearm but cool none the less. Ruger 10/22s are one of the easiest rifles to swap put parts on and there are endless aftermarket goodies one can put on it. Reminds me that I really should pick up another one....sold my last one =/

GoSka37
11-07-2005, 03:11 AM
****tyness... Me and my dad share a Ruger 10/22 for plinking... I'd really like to get my own tho and trick it out a bit.

GazB
11-07-2005, 04:06 AM
Why is the silencer on the Israeli Rugers so big?

The silencer I use on my .22 is about the same size as the one on the SV-99 as shown in the link posted above... when you fire the loudest noise is the impact of the round hitting the ground with a thud.

When I first took the rifle out to test it on rabbits I had a new scope that wasn't zeroed yet and while I was wandering up to where I intended to zero the scope and start having fun I spotted a rabbit about 25m away. I dropped and loaded a round and fired at the little fellow. When the bullet hit the dirt behind him the rabbit jumped about 1m in the air and ran about 2m to his left and then stopped and put his ears up trying to work out what happened. I reloaded and adjusted the scope based on the difference in where I was aiming and where the bullet had hit and fired again. Adjusted too far and the bullet impacted in front of the rabbit who again jumped up in the air and ran back about 2m to where he was when I first saw him. With my third round I hit him square in the head and he dropped like a rock. That is when I remembered that my scope had 1/2 inch at 100 yard adjustments rather than 1/4 inch at 100 yard adjustments, which is why I was so far off with my second shot. Still, Now I had my rifle zeroed and I was ready to hunt wabbits... :-)

(Note I am from New Zealand and it is legal to own and used silenced firearms. In fact you don't need a special permit. A chap in Christchurch actually converts rifles and I am thinking of sending him an old 303 that he can convert into 45 cal like a De Lisle. Was also thinking as the 303 has the same bore calibre as the AKs 7.62 calibre that a silenced 7.62 x 39mm based on the 303 action might be nice...)

Sorry for going OT a little.

GazB
11-07-2005, 04:14 AM
Back on topic, there is ammo from a company called Aguila or something like that that makes special 60 grain .22 cal bullets for longer range work.

(note normally high velocity bullets make longer range shooting easier because of the flatter trajectory making it easier to hit the target. With very small bullets however they tend to lose their velocity very quickly, so a stinger bullet (ie 32 grain at over 400mps is very effective within 50m but at 100m is a poor performer). A subsonic bullet at 40 grain and less than 320mps velocity can kill out to 100m reliably if your gun is good enough to reliably hit at that range. The heavier subsonic bullet also loses energy slower so at 100m it has a lot more energy than a stinger round.

...that is the theory anyway.

It was one of the reasons the US 45 cal round was so effective in the De Lisle as it had a very heavy projectile and was subsonic but the De Lisle had a longer barrel than pistols in this calibre so it was reportedly very accurate.

The things going for 22lr calibre silenced weapons is the availabilty of ammo and the fact that you could carry several thousand rounds with you easily as it is so small.

Para
11-07-2005, 02:52 PM
So you are going to carry a gun just to use on any guard dogs you might run into.

Baboonass
11-07-2005, 03:16 PM
The Mark22 Mod 0 "Hush Puppy" used by the SEALs was actually a 9mm (a modified S&W Model 39 to be exact), not a .22.

Nope.


The Mk22 was a Ruger .22

The S&W Model 39 was a 9mm

Both were nicknamed, "Hush Puppy".

Probably confusion in both gun having the same nickname, (unofficial).

BadKarma26
11-07-2005, 04:47 PM
Ranger snipers shootout street lights with subsonic ammo and supressed .223

Pindeho
11-07-2005, 04:50 PM
Contract killers are very fond of the .22 cal weapons. Light weight and easy to fire with almost no recoil from the weapon. But if against armoured targets they're useless pretty much.

Baboonass
11-07-2005, 05:16 PM
Ranger snipers shootout street lights with subsonic ammo and supressed .223



Subsonic .223?


Never heard of it, at least not mil issue.

I have, however, heard of subsonic 9mm.

If you have a link post it, I'd like to hear about this.

California Joe
11-07-2005, 07:03 PM
Why would you have heard about it?










Oh yeah. Nevermind p-)

mk 22 being a Ruger.22 was what I thought I had heard but I was probably drunk or getting a lap dance or both when the story was being told.....

ed316
11-07-2005, 07:12 PM
http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-90053103682336_1870_1389979 (http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-90053103682336_1870_15205)

http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-90053103682336_1870_1400504

Designed for use with M-4 and M-16 style weapons, this round is tailored for use in close-quarters-combat scenarios. Velocity of 975 fps provides controlled penetration in urban areas and other sensitive environments. The round will fully cycle the slide in both semi-automatic and fully automatic firing modes. When combined with an ASP suppressor (or other model), the round enables super-quiet operation for both military and law enforcement. Will deliver 1 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

John M.
11-07-2005, 07:26 PM
Great story GazB, also I commend you on being a New Zealander!

TuNeRsHaRk
11-07-2005, 08:06 PM
When i was at the Air/Sea Show in Ft Lauderdale 2 years ago there were a whole Bunch of Different guns on display and one of them was Some type of
.22 Rifle, it looked kinda weird and i think it was breach-loaded but i cant recall what the guy told me they used it for

thatguy96
11-07-2005, 10:20 PM
Nope.


The Mk22 was a Ruger .22

The S&W Model 39 was a 9mm

Both were nicknamed, "Hush Puppy".

Probably confusion in both gun having the same nickname, (unofficial).
According to Kevin Dockery in Special Warfare Special Weapons the Mk 22 Mod 0 was the developmental host for the Mk 3 Mod 0 suppressor, leading to the Mk 23 Mod 0 (the first one, the USN has a habit of recycling designations), and both were S&W Model 39 pistols modified to accept the Mk 3 Mod 0. According to him, the suppressed Ruger Mk IIs went undesignated.

Also on topic, the OSS and others used suppressed Hi-Standard .22 pistols.

The USAF has also fielded a number of survival rifles, but while these were ".22s" it was .22 Hornet.

maw
11-08-2005, 02:11 AM
i've used sub sonic 5.56. i don't remember the brand but i can ask. it wasn't the 63 grain ebr stuff.
even with the can on, it didn't cycle the action.

Asheren
11-08-2005, 06:16 AM
The Russians have one too. It was used against the Chechens http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html


Chlip chlip why why i don't live in NZ. I want it i want it badly.

Baboonass
11-08-2005, 08:38 AM
According to Kevin Dockery in Special Warfare Special Weapons the Mk 22 Mod 0 was the developmental host for the Mk 3 Mod 0 suppressor, leading to the Mk 23 Mod 0 (the first one, the USN has a habit of recycling designations), and both were S&W Model 39 pistols modified to accept the Mk 3 Mod 0. According to him, the suppressed Ruger Mk IIs went undesignated.

Also on topic, the OSS and others used suppressed Hi-Standard .22 pistols.

The USAF has also fielded a number of survival rifles, but while these were ".22s" it was .22 Hornet.


I never saw the S&W Model 39, all we had untill 1998 for suppressed pistols were the Mk22 (Ruger model 22) and the P9S (HK 9mm). Perhaps in the VN era there was a designator for the Model 39, I'll ask. But the Mk22 was the designation for the Ruger 22.

Baboonass
11-08-2005, 08:39 AM
http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-90053103682336_1870_1389979 (http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-90053103682336_1870_15205)

http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-90053103682336_1870_1400504

Designed for use with M-4 and M-16 style weapons, this round is tailored for use in close-quarters-combat scenarios. Velocity of 975 fps provides controlled penetration in urban areas and other sensitive environments. The round will fully cycle the slide in both semi-automatic and fully automatic firing modes. When combined with an ASP suppressor (or other model), the round enables super-quiet operation for both military and law enforcement. Will deliver 1 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.


Thanks. Nobody in my circle had heard of this before, this helps.

thatguy96
11-08-2005, 12:07 PM
I never saw the S&W Model 39, all we had untill 1998 for suppressed pistols were the Mk22 (Ruger model 22) and the P9S (HK 9mm). Perhaps in the VN era there was a designator for the Model 39, I'll ask. But the Mk22 was the designation for the Ruger 22.
Are you sure it wasn't Ruger Mk II and someone just mispoke?

GazB
11-10-2005, 11:30 PM
Thanks. Nobody in my circle had heard of this before, this helps.

The Russians also have subsonic 5.45mm ammo for their suppressed AKs (particularly the AKS-74U with the suppressed 30mm underbarrel grenade launcher for sneaky ops). The 5.45mm sub sonic ammo has bullets in the 80 grain weight range. The 7.62 x 39mm subsonic models seem to be more popular as the heavier 193 grain bullet is more effective. The 9 x 39mm specialist AS and VSS use 250 grain subsonic projectiles.

BTW not all of my 22s are silenced, I mainly use the silencer when putting down animals in an urban area, or when hunting on dairy farms... don't want to go upsetting those cows...

kamarian
11-29-2005, 01:47 AM
The 1st models of the Australian Browning SMG were .22 and used extensivly in the Pacific.


what browning SMG? I know the owen gun was tested in 22lr as well as .45, but settled on 9mm.