No Regrets Over 'Old Europe, New Europe'-Rumsfeld

[scoone]

Fri February 6, 2004 10:32 AM ET
By Charles Aldinger
MUNICH, Germany (*******) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said on Friday he had no regrets about his explosive "Old Europe and New Europe" comment before the Iraq War which drew a storm of criticism from the continent.

"I'm too old to have regrets. No, I don't regret it," he said in an interview with European journalists. "Life is going to go on, people are going to sort through" differences.

He said the comments on Europe, made to reporters in Washington in last year's run-up to the March U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, were an attempt to illustrate that NATO was expanding eastward and that Europe was changing.

"And instead of saying 'Old NATO and new NATO', I said 'Old Europe and New Europe' - and I ended up becoming a folk hero for all the wrong reasons," said Rumsfeld, who was in Munich to attend a meeting of NATO defense ministers.

He made the original comments at Washington's Foreign Press Center at a time when a number of Western European allies - especially France and Germany - were expressing open, bitter opposition to U.S. threats to invade Iraq.

Pressed on the issue on Thursday, Rumsfeld said journalists in Washington were suggesting to him that "'Europe's against you' and 'Europe's this and this and Europe's that'."

"And, my Lord, it was France and Germany, it wasn't Europe," he said.

Rumsfeld pointed out that many countries in Europe, especially among the seven new, former Warsaw Pact members of NATO that will soon expand the alliance to 26 countries, actually supported the invasion of Iraq.

ONCE-TENSE RELATIONS RETURN TO NORMAL

Rumsfeld and other U.S. officials have stressed to reporters in recent days that relations between the United States and its European allies are now virtually back to normal -- after some dramatic clashes with France and Germany last year and despite continued widespread opposition in Europe to the Iraq war.

However, he said a survey in one Western European country -- which officials later said was Germany -- revealed the country's television reporting was showing unfair bias against Washington.
"So life goes on," he said. "But NATO is a different institution with all those new members. And, quite honestly, Europe will be a different institution with all of those new members."
He was referring to the 10, mostly east European countries invited to join the 15-nation European Union in May.

Asked about reports the United States was planning to shift up to a third of its 110,000 troops out of Europe as part of a global realignment of military forces, Rumsfeld said no decisions had been made.

But he conceded that the upcoming shuffle could have its greatest effect in countries where large numbers of U.S. troops are stationed, such as Germany and South Korea. The United States was not planning to establish a large number of new bases worldwide, he said.
http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4302755

[Kitsune]

In fact Rumsfeld should feel honored. "Old Europe" has become such a famous expression over here. I think this will live on long after Rumsfeld himself has faded into history...

Some phrases are just destined to be immortal.


How better to end this post than with the legendary words of Trappatoni that have long since passed into colloquial German:

"Ich habe fertig..."

[cut]

arrogant little **** though, eh?

[Old300]

Which is more arrogant, Cut: Donald Rumsfeld saying something that is unquestionably true - that France and Germany ("Old Europe") opposed a war that most European governments, particularly those of formerly Eastern Bloc nations ("New Europe") supported - or Jacques Chirac telling Poland, et al., that they were "ill-behaved" and "had missed a great opportunity to shut up" for supporting the war?

http://www.nato.int/shape/news/2003/02/s030218.htm

[cut]

it's not the what he says but more the way he talks especially when reffering to himself, but I guessed that someone would feel their patrotism was insulted.

[Old300]

Cut, you haven't insulted my patriotism (whatever that means and if that were possible). You've insulted a specific man over a specific comment. My purpose was to argue that your insult was substantively wrong and to suggest that the President of France would be a far worthier recipient of it. I succeeded in both endeavors, wouldn't you agree?

[UkrainianAmerican]

arrogant little **** though, eh?
No, i think that is used to describe the leaders of Old Europe.
In other words, shut the **** up.

[wholagun]

Ich bin ein Berliner. :lol: If Kenedy only knew the second meaning to that phrase.


that they were "ill-behaved" and "had missed a great opportunity to shut up" for supporting the war?



yeah that pissed me off, then again the French do rule the EU, what can you do.

Aside, pppsssttttt don't tell the Germans this, but I think they are whiped by the French, its the French that are controling everything.
:D j/king

[Kitsune]

Ah bah, I don't fear the French. But I think they fear an possible future axis Warsaw-Berlin...

[wholagun]

Ah bah, I don't fear the French. But I think they fear an possible future axis Warsaw-Berlin...

well I don't know about that, I think its the Franco German union that Warsaw is worried about. Berlin - Warsaw Axis wow that has a nice chym to it. Did you know that Berlin is a slavic word?

[GazB]

Which is more arrogant, Cut: Donald Rumsfeld saying something that is unquestionably true - that France and Germany ("Old Europe") opposed a war that most European governments, particularly those of formerly Eastern Bloc nations ("New Europe") supported

But Britain is just as old as France and Germany... whereas Poland and other countries near her have a habit of appearing and then disappearing on maps. What he basically was saying was that there are forward looking progressives (young) and backward looking ageing conservatives (old) in Europe... the definition of the difference he based on blind support for US foreign policy. In other words follow me and be young and exciting and progressive... oppose us and you are old and outdated and backward.

In other words he is full of ****.


My purpose was to argue that your insult was substantively wrong and to suggest that the President of France would be a far worthier recipient of it. I succeeded in both endeavors, wouldn't you agree?


Most French people I have spoken to and the polls I have seen show the French didn't support Bush's war. What sort of leader ignores his peoples wishes? Apart from Blair of course.


No, i think that is used to describe the leaders of Old Europe.
In other words, shut the f*** up.


Sounds like Rumsfield... agree with me or shut up. Democracy at its best ehhh?

The real seperation of old and new europe really represents the difference between puppets and allies. The US seems to prefer puppets. Perhaps when rumsfield and bush jnr grow up they might learn a few things.

[He219]

:cantbeli:

GazB crawled out from underneath his rock to enlighten us with drivel!

What he basically was saying was that there are forward looking progressives (young) and backward looking ageing conservatives (old) in Europe
Yes.

What your Marxist ideology fails to comprehend is that Old Europe is based on it's history of Squabbling and Waring without a unified front to check the actions of rouge Dictators. Take your lovely Frenchies who chose not to go to war to check Hitler. Eventually they succumb to inaction.

Britain may be old but behaves as part of a united front against Ameriphobes like yourself.

Brush up on the demise of the League of Nations to comprehend Rummy's remarks. Donald Rumsfeld may be a hawk, but he is also one of the most effective Secretaries of Defense in American History.

:roll:

[Kitsune]

GazB wrote:

What sort of leader ignores his peoples wishes? Apart from Blair of course.

Aznar.

GazB wrote:
Quote:
No, i think that is used to describe the leaders of Old Europe.
In other words, shut the f*** up.



Sounds like Rumsfield... agree with me or shut up. Democracy at its best ehhh?

Democracy? It was a Russian who said that. What do they know about it? He even forgot that his beloved Putin was also so arrogant as to be against the war.


And as far as He219 is concerned: Well the French may have been to sluggish to do anything about Hitler back during WW2 times. But thats different with us Germans. We were hardly inactive, weren't we?
Old or not...there is still life in these ancient bones. p-)

[cut]

Cut, you haven't insulted my patriotism (whatever that means and if that were possible). You've insulted a specific man over a specific comment. My purpose was to argue that your insult was substantively wrong and to suggest that the President of France would be a far worthier recipient of it. I succeeded in both endeavors, wouldn't you agree?

in a word no, I have every right to believe what I said and I will stick by my convictions.

[Old300]

Cut, I didn't challenge your right to believe what you said. I simply challenged what you said. And what you said was fatuous. Entertaining, but fatuous. Donald Rumsfeld may be arrogant. And he may be a cu*t (although I'd be surprised if many people agreed with you on that: whatever his faults, he strikes me as perhaps the Biggest Swinging Di*k on the planet). But his Old v. New Europe comment was neither arrogant nor evidence that he is ******l.

Moving on...

GazB: Rumsfeld was responding to reporters who kept saying that "Europe" opposes this or supports that, as if there were such a thing, politically, as "Europe". Yes, there is an EU, but the member states that comprise it disagreed with one another vigorously on the war in Iraq, among many other things. I don't see why you would think that Britain is a "puppet" for following the US; while, say, Belgium, is not a puppet for following France. Basically, France and Germany have been the driving forces behind closer European integration and Britain, regardless of how old it is, has not been. He was noting that the countries that opposed the war in Iraq were the old leaders of EU integration; while those who supported it were, by and large, the new members of the EU. Makes sense to me.

[wholagun]

whereas Poland and other countries near her have a habit of appearing and then disappearing on maps
yes we do but that doesn't have anything to do with old and new. Poland became a country in 966 p-) Well technically the modern states as we know them became a reality after 30 years war in treaty of Westphalia.

I don't like New and Old Europe (labeling and dividing Europeans) especailly during a time where we are finally uniting. Kitsune is right the new and old thing is here to stay.


What sort of leader ignores his peoples wishes? Apart from Blair of course.


Blair and Miller - in Poland the mass population is against the war in Iraq as well and dissaprove of having Polish troops in Iraq something like 70% dissaprove.

[budanski]

In fact Rumsfeld should feel honored. "Old Europe" has become such a famous expression over here. I think this will live on long after Rumsfeld himself has faded into history...

Some phrases are just destined to be immortal.


How better to end this post than with the legendary words of Trappatoni that have long since passed into colloquial German:

"Ich habe fertig..."

Speaking of which...
Germans pick "old Europe" as phrase of year (http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=4567905)

"The term 'old Europe' was originally used as a provocation, but its meaning underwent a transformation and now stands for a new-found symbol for positive self-confidence among Europeans," Rudolf Hoberg, chairman of the language society, said on Friday.

"Positive self-confidence among Europeans"?

Among which Europeans? The ones who helped liberate a country and capture a heinous dictator? Or are we talking about the petulent few who objected to everything publicly while secretly cutting back-room deals with the tyrants?

[mack pl]

New and old Europe, what the f**k is that ??? I live in Poland, and i dont understand what is the new Europe. Poland is in Europe since X century, so we arent some new part of Europe. But if that means new part of EU, i could agree with that, but Rumsfeld thinking about something else. For him New Europe is good, Old Europe is bad. Hmm, we are in Europe, and for us its not important, is that old or new Europe. The most important is the future of Eastern and Weastern part of Europe in EU. I think this future will be difficult, but its the only way for us. Last year i vote by UE in polls( UE- YES)! :lol:

[stephane from Paris]

Chirac had a poor comment about Poland government but if we thinks by ourself a few minutes we could know why (it's exclude some people here)!
A few countries ask to enter the UE (with the political help of USA !!!?????)and in the same time they go on every steps of US!
The enlargment of UE will have a high cost (for each side), USA are happy to see eastern countries outside from Russian power , but when you see that US wants that Turkey joins UE too we could have to thinks!
Are these counties the way for US to control UE??????????????????
We are all Europeans (except Turkey)!

It's why Rumsfeld said Old and New Europe!
This comment was very arogant and will be never forget! But it was also a menace to UE biggest contributors for the future!


A few words about the comments on preWW2!
Europe was under economics crisis at this time, several millions of men were kill or wounded in France and UK, people were tire of wars!
In Germany people were angers against allied occupation and debt war that help Hitler !!
France and UK made an error it's a fact but they were too much weaken!

And you must stop with the myth of the US who acted without interrests!!!
When allied enter in war after the Poland attack, what did USA??? NOTHING
US enter in the war ONLY because of Pearl Arbor agression and because their boats for UK were too much attacked by UBoot!!!!!!!!!
How many years US had wait if these 2 facts didn't happens????????????

Don't compare with OIF which is certainly not a war for remove a tyran!
If US (and all West) is suddenly really interresting to help people who are under tyrany why Bush let Marines in front of Liberia where thousands of people died and ask for his help? Certainly because there isn't enougth to win there!
Let me laught with your morality!

[martinexsquaddie]

the reason for the war was not Saddams and evil tyrant we must get rid of him .
It was his weapoms of mass destruction and he's a threat.
Unfortunatly NO wmds have turned up and no real evidience of backing al qaedia have turned up either.
v

[mustamato]

In a couple of months EU will get ten new member countries. Mostly countries
that now have leaderships that are US-positive. And a fun thing is that most of
the older EU-members have decided upon certain rules so that they won´t
get a mass immigration of people that want to benefit from the "Old Europe".

So we can conclude that these countries are still rather poor, and that they want
to benefit from richer countries. Such as US. And as was said earlier in this thread
the population in example Poland does not support the governement licking US
ass, they might even think it´s embarrassing with the prostitution. Thus, in the future
when these countries become richer and more independent economically, (which is
just a matter of time), I think these countries soon will become part of the "Old
Europe".

Why shouldn´t they?

[Guttorm]

Hehe...

[stephane from Paris]

and now Iraq is far more dangerous!
The main risk is that the country will be cut in 3 parts! One totally Kurd with oil (Turkey and Iran will not be glad of that), second a Shiit part under radical's religious authorithies close to Iran, and a Third in the sunist zone who will have choise between baathists and more certainly religious too!!!!!! Well, Irak will should become a new Lebanon but with Oil!
The rise of this new country will be a good news for muslims integrists and Islamists terrorists, but as i says since the beginning it will be very bad news for West and the real ennemy is curently safe!

[stephane from Paris]

Right Mustamato!
And i must add that i'm happy to see these country in the UE since i prefer that their workers replace the muslims future imigrants which will give Balkans problems in all of our countries!
btw UE should help more Africa , it's our common interrest!
If they become richer they will do more business with us and their people will stay at home!

[wholagun]

When allied enter in war after the Poland attack, what did USA??? NOTHING

Well US didn't promise to actually help us, France and Britain did, only no help ever came from the west.

I said it once on this forum and I'll say it again - the Eastern European honey moon with US will come to and end within the next 10 years.


Chirac had a poor comment about Poland government
Yes he did. It gave the impression that we can only join if our politics are inline with that of France. But in the end it all worked out well.


they might even think it´s embarrassing with the prostitution
You forget we have 10 000 000, thats TEN MILLION Poles in US, 1/4 of the population of Poland, and half the our diaspora which is 20 000 000 Poles living abroad (not in Poland) which equals about 60 000 000 (figures varry depending on sourse) Poles in the world. Thus the US is very important to us.


And i must add that i'm happy to see these country in the UE since i prefer that their workers replace the muslims future imigrants which will give Balkans problems in all of our countries
But only Ireland is opening its borders to us to work. 18-20% unemployment in Poland is a big drain on our limmited resoures. Origianlly Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Great Britain, and Ireland were all to open thier border to work but they all closed them except for one. seems the promises of EU are getting smaller and smaller the close to May 1st we get.

[budanski]

GAY[/b] Paris]UE should help more Africa , it's our common interrest!

Who better to lead the way... (http://sanou.mbaye.free.fr/ps_how_the_french_plunder_africa.htm) ;)

[tony6]

But Britain is just as old as France and Germany... whereas Poland and other countries near her have a habit of appearing and then disappearing on maps.
Well-as far as I know we disappeared on the European map only once during last 1000 years.


In a couple of months EU will get ten new member countries. Mostly countries that now have leaderships that are US-positive. And a fun thing is that most of the older EU-members have decided upon certain rules so that they won´t get a mass immigration of people that want to benefit from the "Old Europe".
So we can conclude that these countries are still rather poor, and that they want to benefit from richer countries. Such as US. And as was said earlier in this thread the population in example Poland does not support the governement licking US ass, they might even think it´s embarrassing with the prostitution. Thus, in the future when these countries become richer and more independent economically, (which is just a matter of time), I think these countries soon will become part of the "Old Europe".
Why shouldn´t they?
I know what You mean but I don't agree with You. You have to be aware of fact that Polish relaitonship with USA are very strong and very personal. Almost every Pole have some family in USA (including me).
Besides USA was always Polish dream in hard times. New land and so on- You can laugh at it from Your point of view but whole XX century wasn't very nice for us. It's true that most people in Poland oppose the war but also many young people support the action in Iraq. They are dissapointed with "old Europe". They turn on TV and listen to Mr. Chirac telling them that "they missed their opportunity to shut up". EU keep critisizing us for delays in implementing EU law while France and Germany are laughing at the rest of EU countries for they've just avoided consequences of overcoming their budgets. So what a hell? Are there two kind of countries in EU? Those who have to obey the rules and those who don't give a ****??
It's really embarrassing and I don't think that right now EU can be alternative for us. We join it because there is no other way. It's just a business. And if You think that thousands of Polish citizen will migrate to western Europe-You're wrong (and You will see it in next few years).
Poles are to much attached to their land (specially farmers) and family.
Young people will migrate but they come back sooner or later (right know many Poles come back from USA to Poland).
Conclusion: You don't have to be afraid of loosing Your social benefits and many because of thousands of Eastern European citizens migrating to Your country. It's a myth.

[Kitsune]

To set something straight here: Chirac criticised the signing of the "letter of eight". With this letter eight governments (Britain, Spain, Poland...) declared their support for the US in the Irak war.
Which is ok.
But it was not ok to do this without even trying to talk to France and Germany about it and to find a compromise. Perhaps it would not have worked, but you did not even try ! And THAT created the rift within the EU like no other action.
For Germany, who ALWAYS has supported Polands right to enter the EU (and however tony6 may think about it, some Polish actually want to join) it was slap in the face. And not the last one. I do not say that Poland or Spain should have taken over the German or French opinion. But you could at least have tried to talk it over. But you did not.

As for the the American "open ranges" playing a important role in the Polish mind...that is the same with Germany. and probably with a lot of other european countries as well. They all play "cowboys and indians" as childs.That is nothing special.

Disappointed by old Europe? WHY for gods sake? This 3% thing AGAIN? Is there nothing else god damit?
Why not be dissapointed with the US as a Pole? Did you get some nice and profitable treaties to rebuild Irak for your efforts? No, right?
And while you may have lots of relatives in the US...You Poles still need VISA to visit the US, don't you? Bush has just refused to change that, hasn't he? In a diplomatic way of course. You are friends after all.
(The British got the blame for the bad WMD intel. I wonder what the Spanish will get...)

[tony6]

But it was not ok to do this without even trying to talk to France and Germany about it and to find a compromise. Perhaps it would not have worked, but you did not even try ! And THAT created the rift within the EU like no other action.
For Germany, who ALWAYS has supported Polands right to enter the EU (and however tony6 may think about it, some Polish actually want to join) it was slap in the face. And not the last one. I do not say that Poland or Spain should have taken over the German or French opinion. But you could at least have tried to talk it over. But you did not.
Note that our two boys (Chirac and Schroeder) were critisizing the whole operations from the beggining not asking the rest of European countries what do the think about it - they've just assumed that their voice is the voice of whole Europe (which turned out not to be true:)

Disappointed by old Europe? WHY for gods sake? This 3% thing AGAIN? Is there nothing else god damit?
I was just an example. I prefer American style of economy than European (less social benefits but more economic freedom and low taxes).

Why not be dissapointed with the US as a Pole? Did you get some nice and profitable treaties to rebuild Irak for your efforts? No, right?
And while you may have lots of relatives in the US...You Poles still need VISA to visit the US, don't you? Do you really feel treated so much better?
Well You got the point here but we'll see. The discusion about VISAs have just entered new level after president Kwasniewski's visit in USA and as for contracts-we'll see also. Right now Iraq Army will be equipped with Polish vehicles and weapons-it's a good start.
This VISA problem is really very annoying but this year's election in USA can change the situation (10 milions Poles in USA - who wouldn't like to get their votes?:)

[Kitsune]

tony 6 wrote:

I was just an example. I prefer American style of economy than European (less social benefits but more economic freedom and low taxes).

Since when does the EU prescribe its members states how much taxes-money they take from or how many social benefits they give to their citizens?

Thats hardly our fault, what you do in Poland in this regard.

[tony6]

hey-I'm not saying it's Your fault!
I don't like European model of economy (with all that hiper-bureaucracy and all)-that's all. I'm happy that liberals are geting stronger and stronger in Poland (and they will probably win next year election).

[budanski]

Where would you get that idea, Tony? (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4120768/) ;)

[wholagun]

hey-I'm not saying it's Your fault!
I don't like European model of economy (with all that hiper-bureaucracy and all)-that's all. I'm happy that liberals are geting stronger and stronger in Poland (and they will probably win next year election).

Whats wrong with European economy? If you look at the UN index of best places to live in you'll notice that most of the top states come from Europe. US style economy is only good for rich states, people in Poland complain about high prices for medicine and other products, under US economic system it would be twice as bad.
Poland should follow Irish and Spainish examples in the EU, look at Ireland now its got a great economy - but you have to give it time.
Yeah Im all for PO i don't like PiS though, Jan Rokita is like a bloody Nazi he's out to get everyone I love it, maybe he'll end the coruption.

[Kitsune]

That article is hardly news budanski. But may I quote something out of it:
Thoughtful Europeans now recognize this and have begun to act. Last year Germany trimmed the length and generosity of unemployment benefits while also cutting the tax used to pay for health insurance; that meant reducing some benefits and requiring some co-payments by patients.

Or the Euro
It's now worth about $1.25; in December 2002 it was worth $1. Most economists think it will go higher—maybe to $1.50.

Now why is that? Perhaps, budanski, you should think more about Americas exploding trade and federal budget deficits. Its not that the US had no economic problems. Large GDP growths rates are not everything. Especially when they mostly represent a expanding bubble economy.

[budanski]

That article is hardly news budanski. But may I quote something out of it:
Thoughtful Europeans now recognize this and have begun to act. Last year Germany trimmed the length and generosity of unemployment benefits while also cutting the tax used to pay for health insurance; that meant reducing some benefits and requiring some co-payments by patients.

Or the Euro
It's now worth about $1.25; in December 2002 it was worth $1. Most economists think it will go higher—maybe to $1.50. Now why is that? Perhaps, budanski, you should think more about Americas exploding trade and federal budget deficits. Its not that the US had no economic problems. Large GDP growths rates are not everything. Especially when they mostly represent a expanding bubble economy.

Lets be clear on something here. When the Euro was introduced, it was propped up at 1.18 to one U.S. dollar. Why is that?

Its interesting to see the Euros are more concerned about a falling dollar than say, the Americans. High Euro got your economic recovery to a stand still?
Dollar Plunge Accelerates; Market Ignores Euro Rhetoric (http://news.morningstar.com/news/DJ/M01/D20/1074622265854.html)
U.S., Allies Reach Compromise on Dollar (http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/02/07/ap/Business/d80ing7g0.txt)

You sure like to harp on America's budget defecit but what you've missed is that America is recovering from a recession, were involved in two wars, and given the deficit as a proportion of total economic output at 4.5% that seems on average. How do you suppose we should clear this up? Act like Germany and France and do as you please? (http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040206-084200-1497r.htm) Also, lets not forget whose economy is stagnant with double digit unemployment and wrought in inflation right now. Sure the hell isnt the US.

[Sixgun Symphony]

New and old Europe, what the f**k is that ??? I live in Poland, and i dont understand what is the new Europe.

'Old Europe' is what had been the great powers before the end of WWII. France and Germany are not powers anymore. They're has beens.


Eastern Europe, or "New Europe" is becoming more importiant.

[mustamato]

Conclusion: You don't have to be afraid of loosing Your social benefits and many because of thousands of Eastern European citizens migrating to Your country. It's a myth.

Well, it´s the politicians that are afraid of that. I´m not that concerned,
and as you say, people are of course connected to their "motherland"
and will not leave it easily, especially not since things are just getting
better in countries like Poland. I´m more afraid of that the jobs here will
be moved to i.e. Poland because your salaries are very much lower than
ours, and polish workers are just as good. I´m also a little afraid of the
polish exports to our country. The products are cheaper. In the 80´s, or
early 90´s a friend of mine was in Poland, he bought some chocolate that
he gave me, it was so disgusting that I tried to melt it in the microwave
owen, and it started to burn!! HAHA. But that was back then, today your
chocolate is probably good **** and why buy swedish if the polish one is
4 times cheaper? Thus, I think that the "eastern block" countries will get
richer, they will simply get our money, the money will be divided more
equally within EU. It´s just a matter of time. Maybe some decades.



New and old Europe, what the f**k is that ??? I live in Poland, and i dont understand what is the new Europe.

'Old Europe' is what had been the great powers before the end of WWII. France and Germany are not powers anymore. They're has beens.

Eastern Europe, or "New Europe" is becoming more importiant.

If you define power after how many people they kill, then no, Germany
is not a major power anymore. But if you instead look a little at the other
statistics, then you´ll see that Germany exports more than US etc etc,
simply, they are the motor of the whole European economy. Some people
that know about economy (professors etc) says that the reason to why
german economy has not been that great is due to the re-union which has
costed enormous amounts of cash and still are. It´s just a matter of time
when the germans can start investing their cash outside their own borders
again. And since they already export more than the US in example, well...

Germany is not a power to count with? :roll:


You sure like to harp on America's budget defecit but what you've missed is that America is recovering from a recession, were involved in two wars, and given the deficit as a proportion of total economic output at 4.5% that seems on average. How do you suppose we should clear this up? Act like Germany and France and do as you please? (http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040206-084200-1497r.htm) Also, lets not forget whose economy is stagnant with double digit unemployment and wrought in inflation right now. Sure the hell isnt the US.

Well who forces you to attack another countries, maybe the Bush´s should
fix the problems back home first? And well I am not a professor in economy
obviously. But since the dollars value is falling like a stone, what the hell do you
call that if not inflation? And if the EUR actually gets stronger, isn´t that deflation
then? Please help me out with this one. I´m soo confused :)

[Sixgun Symphony]

Germany is not a power to count with? :roll:


Cain's knotted club is sceptre still.

Remember the 1980's? Japan was a real economic power, but they lived under the US protection.

Germany is not the world power they were before WWII. That US troops have remained in Germany after the fall of the Soviet Union, it is obvious that Germany has remained being an occupied nation since 1945.

[GazB]

Take your lovely Frenchies who chose not to go to war to check Hitler. Eventually they succumb to inaction.


Hahahahaha... of course. Saddam was in the exact same position as Hitler. All powerful army ready to invade and take over Europe... afterall his armed forces had only been soundly defeated 10 years before and was kept under sanctions that largely destroyed his airforce and kept him in place.

BTW it was French inaction that led to France having a much bigger armed force than Britain or Germany at the time and the building of a defencive line that would not be affordable today. This latter led to complacency, and the use of WWI tactics against a WWII army like germany is what lead to their rapid defeat.


Britain may be old but behaves as part of a united front against Ameriphobes like yourself.


Blair lied to his people to get them to not stop him from sending in UK troops. He now claims that he made a mistake... apparantly being a moron is better than being a liar.


Donald Rumsfeld may be a hawk, but he is also one of the most effective Secretaries of Defense in American History.


Considering his competition that is like being the best tiddly winks player in the Cook Islands.


Democracy? It was a Russian who said that. What do they know about it? He even forgot that his beloved Putin was also so arrogant as to be against the war.

I said it... I wasn't quoting anyone. Of course Putin was against this war to stop Saddam taking over the world with his huge amounts of WMDs. What WMDS? He didn't use any to save his own skin do you really think anyone was in danger from them except the Kurds... and If you really want to save the Kurds bomb Turkey. Nobody cared when he used WMDs in the 80s. Even if he had 1,000 tons of the stuff... who has it now? l am pretty sure things got rather worse now than better. There is no way saddam would let Al qada have WMDs, they were helping the Kurds overthrow saddam. Now if they are there Al qada are as likely to find them as the US or UK. Great work.


I don't see why you would think that Britain is a "puppet" for following the US;

Because of comments made by Blair. Little things, like when asked why Britain should go to war and help the US the reasons given were basically because the US was an ally and that if they didn't go with them then they would have no "control" over what the US did. This was after several comments that if the US ignored the UN then it was out of control and undemocratic.


while, say, Belgium, is not a puppet for following France.

Did Belgium make its own decision or was it told what to say. There was a slight delay between speeches from the whitehouse and number 10 and the content of those speeches used very similar turns of phrase. Obviously there were differences. What plays well in the US doesn't translate well to others.


Basically, France and Germany have been the driving forces behind closer European integration and Britain, regardless of how old it is, has not been. He was noting that the countries that opposed the war in Iraq were the old leaders of EU integration; while those who supported it were, by and large, the new members of the EU. Makes sense to me.


You could also say that the division could be made along economic lines. Those that needed US financial investment like the "new" european countries seemed to agree more readily than those that didn't need investment. This makes more sense to me than how long a country has been a full member of the EU.

I do think it is refreshing that European/NATO/EU countries no longer jump when the US says jump and feel they might be allowed to have an opinion of their own about such things. The war was so poorly sold to the world it is no surprise there was division as to whether it was a good idea or not.


I don't like New and Old Europe (labeling and dividing Europeans) especailly during a time where we are finally uniting. Kitsune is right the new and old thing is here to stay.


Glad you noticed that was what it was all about. The US doesn't want equal allies... just yesmen... puppets.

If the new europe wants to remain in the EU... and lets face it Germany and France will foot a large bill because of this then new europe had better start sucking up to the right places pretty soon.


Blair and Miller - in Poland the mass population is against the war in Iraq as well and dissaprove of having Polish troops in Iraq something like 70% dissaprove.


Hehehehe... a leader would be happy for such support, yet with such dissapproval "Poland supports the US and is New Europe..." This I find very funny. :)


Among which Europeans? The ones who helped liberate a country and capture a heinous dictator? Or are we talking about the petulent few who objected to everything publicly while secretly cutting back-room deals with the tyrants?


No, Old europe stood up to the US and at least has some spine.

"Unfortunatly NO wmds have turned up and no real evidience of backing al qaedia have turned up either. "

There is plenty of evidence with al qada... they were in Northern Iraq in the lawless area the US/Uk created with the northern nofly zone. It is just that Al qada were friends with the Kurds and enemies of Saddam... if you really wanted al qada out of Iraq, just stop northern no fly zone and let saddam rebuild his airforce a little.


Well US didn't promise to actually help us, France and Britain did, only no help ever came from the west.


They helped your exiled government and planned a lot, but what else could they do considering the distance?


Thus the US is very important to us.

And where do you think the rest of the european decended Americans came from?


seems the promises of EU are getting smaller and smaller the close to May 1st we get.


Perhaps sucking up to the US to spite the Germans and French will not pay off through the EU... did you expect it would?


'Old Europe' is what had been the great powers before the end of WWII. France and Germany are not powers anymore. They're has beens.

Eastern Europe, or "New Europe" is becoming more importiant.

Interesting way of describing old allies. East Europe is important because they have skilled labour at low cost. Like a high quality cheap labour source... or to put it bluntly fresh meat to screw and rip off.

[Seiyuuki]

Perhaps sucking up to the US to spite the Germans and French will not pay off through the EU... did you expect it would?

So...the EU is just France and Germany...or...the requirement to join the EU is that you have to dislike the U.S.


Interesting way of describing old allies. East Europe is important because they have skilled labour at low cost. Like a high quality cheap labour source... or to put it bluntly fresh meat to screw and rip off.

Yes...we can all see it now...the EU coming together...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Old Allies? Gimmie a break.

Joskha Fischer used to be friends with the Baader-Meinhof Gang in the 1970's. That this commie POS is now the foriegn minister of Germany speaks volumes about the Schroeder regime in Germany.

It was France that built the nuclear reactor in Iraq. Yes the Israeli's bombed it back in 1981 or thereabouts. But we know not to trust the French on the possible existance of WMD in Iraq.


You mentioned something about the US not following the UN? Undemocratic? WTF have you been smoking?

We are a republic and it is US Congress, not the UN, who decide if we are to make war on an enemy.


Al Qaida? You can explain those terrorist training camps in Iraq.

There were other terrorist groups beside Al Qaida. Abu Nidal was a guest in Iraq until he was killed by his own thugs in some factional infighting a few years ago. We also captured the notorious Abu Abbas in Iraq, 'bout time we got that sumbitch.

[tony6]

Poland should follow Irish and Spainish examples in the EU, look at Ireland now its got a great economy - but you have to give it time. .
You got the point here-I have to be more specific. When I say I don't like European model of economy I mean France and Germany (and Sweden also!). Social benefits in those countries are enormous! Also the taxes are vedry high (for example in Sweden). I know that t is nice when You don't have to work to much and being paid by the government but somehow I don't like the idea of 60-70% tax (like in the Scandinavian countries).

[tony6]

Well, it´s the politicians that are afraid of that. I´m not that concerned,
and as you say, people are of course connected to their "motherland"
and will not leave it easily, especially not since things are just getting
better in countries like Poland. I´m more afraid of that the jobs here will
be moved to i.e. Poland because your salaries are very much lower than
ours, and polish workers are just as good. I´m also a little afraid of the
polish exports to our country. The products are cheaper. In the 80´s, or
early 90´s a friend of mine was in Poland, he bought some chocolate that
he gave me, it was so disgusting that I tried to melt it in the microwave
owen, and it started to burn!! HAHA. But that was back then, today your
chocolate is probably good **** and why buy swedish if the polish one is
4 times cheaper? Thus, I think that the "eastern block" countries will get
richer, they will simply get our money, the money will be divided more
equally within EU. It´s just a matter of time. Maybe some decades.
You're right about about Polish workers. Some jobs can be moved to Eastern Europe but it's only a matter of time when we will be paid better so all those global companies would have to find another cheap country :)
By the way-I don't hear Swedish people complaining about Polish doctors working in Sweden for quite the while now :)
Seems that You are afraid of heap workers but on the other hand You have nothing against highly qualified staff who help to maintain high quality of Your health-caring system :)

[wholagun]

Poland should follow Irish and Spainish examples in the EU, look at Ireland now its got a great economy - but you have to give it time. .
You got the point here-I have to be more specific. When I say I don't like European model of economy I mean France and Germany (and Sweden also!). Social benefits in those countries are enormous! Also the taxes are vedry high (for example in Sweden). I know that t is nice when You don't have to work to much and being paid by the government but somehow I don't like the idea of 60-70% tax (like in the Scandinavian countries).

Yeah I aggree I just actually read an academic article on shifting away in European countries from the welfare system into a more market based system. I really want Rokita to win next election and put forth a huge budget cut especially cutting off the wastful huge industries like coal and other nationalized companies and industries.
If the Irish did it so can we, all we need is strong leadership and a plan/vision - both of which we lack.

[tony6]

I think that the most important thing in Rokita's party economic program is flat tax system. It would be great if they managed to implement it!

[wholagun]

I think that the most important thing in Rokita's party economic program is flat tax system. It would be great if they managed to implement it!

**** I forgot to mention that 15% all accross. But we both know that his ideas will most likely not achieved once elected, he will not get a majority and will have to form a coalition which will do nothing but debated/bicker about bull**** and nothing will get done. Lets hope it different this time.

[Kriz]

Poland should follow Irish and Spainish examples in the EU, look at Ireland now its got a great economy - but you have to give it time. .
You got the point here-I have to be more specific. When I say I don't like European model of economy I mean France and Germany (and Sweden also!). Social benefits in those countries are enormous! Also the taxes are vedry high (for example in Sweden). I know that t is nice when You don't have to work to much and being paid by the government but somehow I don't like the idea of 60-70% tax (like in the Scandinavian countries).

Kinda selfish of you, blaming countries like Germany and France for their model of economy. If it wasn't for that model there would be no european union at all.
Who thinks gives the most money to the EU and countries like Ireland, Spain, and the new countries like Poland. Yeah you're right it's Germany and France.

So please think twice before blaming their socialist model, it's that model that's giving your countries extra finances.

[tony6]

**** I forgot to mention that 15% all accross. But we both know that his ideas will most likely not achieved once elected, he will not get a majority and will have to form a coalition which will do nothing but debated/bicker about bull**** and nothing will get done. Lets hope it different this time.
Well the flat tax discussion in Poland has just entered new level. I think that they are going to implement this conception in next 2 tears (if not in 2005 than for sure in 2006-2007 after the elections).

Kinda selfish of you, blaming countries like Germany and France for their model of economy. If it wasn't for that model there would be no european union at all.
Who thinks gives the most money to the EU and countries like Ireland, Spain, and the new countries like Poland. Yeah you're right it's Germany and France.
1) You're right that those two countries are fathers of EU but does it mean that I have to support everything they do and agree with them all the time?
2) right now we only hear how much money we will get but for now -those are only words. We'll see-especially than our Franco-German duet is limiting the money for Poland (because our engagemnt in Iraqi operation and Nicea voting system argue) all the time.

[Kitsune]

@tony6:


We'll see-especially than our Franco-German duet is limiting the money for Poland (because our engagemnt in Iraqi operation and Nicea voting system argue) all the time.

Is that so surprising? The Nice system gave Poland and Spain simply an unfair large share of represetatives. And You KNOW it. That Poland with half the population size and one tenth the economic size of Germany has practically the same ammount of representation is simply unfair. And YOU would see this just the same if Poland would be the one with 83 million inhabitants and Germany had only 40 million.

And remember that the EU does not make decisions that have to do with polish domestic policy. Thats your own domain.

Its simply about a bit of fairness. If you are only thinking what is good about yourself and do not care about the others ("who cares if its fair for them as long it is fair to me") then get out of the Union. Thats not how it works. In that case are just like soccerplayer who is just interested in how many goales HE scores, **** the team.
There is nothing wrong with thinking about yout interests. But you must be able to teamplay. Miller decided to rather pevent the Constitution to keep Polands unfair large share. And that after Germany had backed Polands EU entry against much resistance. Is it that surprising if now many Germans are not exactly enthusiastically anymore when it comes to pay money to the Polish?

What would YOU think if the roles were reversed? Wouldn't you (with your "its only business, after all" attitude) be the first to demand stopping to give money to Germany instantly?

[tony6]

Its simply about a bit of fairness.
Exactly! So why did You agree the Nicea treaty 2 years ago??
It was good two years ago and now it isn't?
It's simply about OBEING YOUR OWN OBLIGATIONS, man. You did sign the treaty so what a hell?
As we see it-You sign the treaty then to please us but now when it comes to EU enlargment You want to simly screw us-and nobody wants to be screwed.
Now-"What would YOU think if the roles were reversed?"
I leave answer to You but please remeber that we agreed to join EU on THAT SPECIFIC CONDITIONS (Nicea!). If we were to join EU with less votes some people (including me for example) would vote "no" in our join-in referendum.

[Kitsune]

Sorry, but one thing is either fair or is it not. And we have simply an obligation to prevent that 43 million Germans are practically NOT represented, compared to Poland.

There is NO reason to stick to an unfair decision, just because some idiots ONCE decided for it. Because the unfair representation will make itself shown in every decision the EU makes. Sorry tony...but the simple "pacta sunt servanda" is not enough. We are not talking about a simple treaty here.

But its true, Nice was a bad mistake. And that it happened more than anything proves that the decision reaching system the EU uses until now (and thanks to Poland and Spain will have to use for the time being) did not work. Because it was the same system used in the old coal and steel union, when it had only 6 members. With 15 members it did not work anymore...anyone could block it. And thats lead to decisions like Nice. And now the EU has 25 members...the system needs to be changed soon or we will never agree on anything anymore. In fact we have no choice.

That Poland agreed to join on the basis of Nice is a point, however. This is indeed a problem. But finally, there is no denying that Nice simply can't work. Wether Poland still wants to join a EU that uses a different system than Nice is solely a Polish question and for you to decide.

Look, in the end what has been said and done at this failed constitution summit can't be undone. We have to look ahead now.
It's just important that we try to understand the position of the other.

[tony6]

That Poland agreed to join on the basis of Nice is point, however.
It is DAMN POINT!
If You think logical-if You want to change our entry conditions-why don't we start all negotiations from the beggining? (cause we agreed to join EU on the basis of Nicea treaty!)
If You want to give us less votes that You were supposed to-then we want some equivalent of it!
Finally-we want a compromise. Why don't You let us (and Spain) have those Nicea votes and let's give Germans more votes (they deserve it-that's fact)?
That's only one of the proposals but mr. Schroeder rejected this proposal already. How did You say it? Something about team work and playing only on Your own?:)

[Kitsune]

tony6 wrote:


Quote:
That Poland agreed to join on the basis of Nice is point, however.

It is DAMN POINT!
If You think logical-if You want to change our entry conditions-why don't we start all negotiations from the beggining? (cause we agreed to join EU on the basis of Nicea treaty!)



I was actually agreeing with you here...

tony6 wrote:

If You want to give us less votes that You were supposed to-then we want some equivalent of it!
Finally-we want a compromise. Why don't You let us (and Spain) have those Nicea votes and let's give Germans more votes (they deserve it-that's fact)?


As I said...the problem with the Nice system is that decisions can still reached only near-unanimous. And that simply will not work with 25 nations. That Germany declined the offer to have more votes shows clearly that we are after more than just our power. We try to make the whole thing work. With the proposed system of the double majority decision making will still be hard...13 nations which represent at least 60% of the population have to agree...but it would be possible. And if 23 of the 25 nations (Even the Brits!) thought it acceptable, it can't be that bad.

Perhaps here for the first time in human history Germany/France were right and Poland/Spain were not. ;)

[BlackRain]

...

[wreck]

Pfft.

Just a few thoughts about the subject of this topic. Good riddance to USA and nato with it's new 'allies' (read: Poland&Turkey) rofl