France

[Jack Mehoff]

Well well...now we see where all the strongest support for Saddam was coming from. He was bribing them with oil money. George Galloway, member of British parliment, one of the loudest anti-war goons was set to make over $90 million courtesy of Saddam. He even denied receiving any oil money in a TV interview before this document was found.

In France, Patrick Maugein, a close political associate and financial backer of French President Jacques Chirac, had deals worth some 36 million barrels of oil. Chirac's office denied any knowledge, yeah right Jacques-Iraq. We know you got your cut you doucebag. That's why you didn't want Saddam thrown out.

France and Russia sold us out for the oil.



"You are looking at a political slush fund that was buying political support for the regime of Saddam Hussein for the last six or seven years," said financial investigator John Fawcett.

According to the document, France was the second-largest beneficiary, with tens of millions of barrels awarded to Patrick Maugein, a close political associate and financial backer of French President Jacques Chirac.

The single biggest set of contracts were given to the Russian government and Russian political figures, more than 1.3 billion barrels in all — including 92 million barrels to individual officials in the office of President Vladimir Putin.

Another 1 million barrels were contracted to the Russian ambassador to Baghdad, 137 million barrels of oil were given to the Russian Communist Party, and 5 million barrels were contracted to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Also on the list are the names of prominent journalists, two Iraqi-Americans, and a French priest who organized a meeting between the pope and Tariq Aziz, Saddam's deputy prime minister.

The following are the names of some of those who, according to the document, received Iraqi oil contracts (amounts are in millions of barrels of oil):

Russia
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with Iraq: 6.5 million and 12.5 million (2 separate contracts)
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Russian Orthodox Church: 5 million


France
Charles Pasqua, former minister of interior: 12 million
Trafigura (Patrick Maugein), businessman: 25 million
Ibex: 47.2 million
Bernard Merimee, former French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club: 17.1 million

And there's a long list of journalists that were bribed to bias their reporting against the war and even the president of Indonesia was bribed.


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/saddam_oil_vouchers_040129-1.html

[SeanAshi]

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/saddam_chirac_dirtyrotten.jpg

[anonymous individual]

International politics are ****ed up.

[Uncle Sam]

Veddy, veddy...intuhvestingk !

[MARINO]

France had also a big contract with Iraq for war material. Mirages, AMX-30 artilery, aintiaircraft systems etc...Sorry

[memphiz]

France had also a big contract with France for war material. Mirages, AMX-30 artilery, aintiaircraft systems etc...
?? i think you mean iraq

any ways why would Russia sell out for oil, i thought they have alot of it. i think we should nuke france and Quebec , damn french

[Chris1]

The documents implicating George Galloway were either faked, or never exsisted.
The paper responsible apologised
He's still an arse though.

[MARINO]

any ways why would Russia sell out for oil, i thought they have alot of it. i think we should nuke france and Quebec , damn french
Yes but Russia has a problem, they oil canalisation breaks in winter because of the ice, so it's more profitable Iraqi oil.

[memphiz]

any ways why would Russia sell out for oil, i thought they have alot of it. i think we should nuke france and Quebec , damn french
Yes but Russia has a problem, they oil canalisation breaks in winter because of the ice, so it's more profitable Iraqi oil.
ok thanks, i did not know that

[Dennis G]

http://www.milspecgear.com/images/french_knife.gif


http://www.75thrangers.com/images/frenchy.gif

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[wholagun]

I have a conspiracy about France and China.

France was pushing for the EU to lift the arms embargo on China, only one of the EU states, all other states foreign ministers were against it. Any how the lifting of th ban is suppose to go ahead sometime soon.

I think that France wants to sell products to China to that Chinese will 1) pay lots of cash for the weapons and tech and 2) become stronger thus 3) challenging US dominace and hegemony in the world with better equiped military. Not at first but over time say 10 15 years with arms exports from Europe.
France in all this would seek to gain the most from exports to the lucurtive arms sales to China. Chinese Prez was in China not awhile back and addressed parliament. hhmmmm

So yeah, thats my little conspiracy.

[SeanAshi]

Old Yeller KY 86 Frencg army knife: Never leave home without it.

[Operation Ivy]

I have a conspiracy about France and China.

France was pushing for the EU to lift the arms embargo on China, only one of the EU states, all other states foreign ministers were against it. Any how the lifting of th ban is suppose to go ahead sometime soon.

I think that France wants to sell products to China to that Chinese will 1) pay lots of cash for the weapons and tech and 2) become stronger thus 3) challenging US dominace and hegemony in the world with better equiped military. Not at first but over time say 10 15 years with arms exports from Europe.
France in all this would seek to gain the most from exports to the lucurtive arms sales to China. Chinese Prez was in China not awhile back and addressed parliament. hhmmmm

So yeah, thats my little conspiracy.

hmmmmmm it could be true :-*$

[16 OBr SpN]

any ways why would Russia sell out for oil, i thought they have alot of it. i think we should nuke france and Quebec , damn french
Yes but Russia has a problem, they oil canalisation breaks in winter because of the ice, so it's more profitable Iraqi oil.

What the hell are you talking about?? :lol:
Apparently, you have no idea whatsoever about Russian oil transportation industry.

Anyways, this article is bunch of bull****, created for the average person.
I especially liked these parts:
"5 million barrels were contracted to the Russian Orthodox Church." And who signed the "contract"?? The patriarch himself? rofl
"million barrels were contracted to the Russian ambassador to Baghdad". I guess the ambassador gradually transported oil in his briefcases.

This is the same type of bull**** as when America accused us of selling new weapons to Saddam, without even showing a single piece of evidence.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[James]

Veddy, veddy...intuhvestingk !

rofl

[usa320]

hmmmmmm it could be true

It is...

I think the similarities between FAMAS and the Type 97 speak volumes...

[One?]

just because someone said they either become terrorists, rogue states, or traitors.

Grow up already. No one wants to be a US puppy. Some european states want to be independent. The US also supported saddam during the war with iran so don't blame the french. At least they didnt turn against him when they had no use for him anymore.

[radon]

" Another 1 million barrels were contracted to the Russian ambassador to Baghdad, 137 million barrels of oil were given to the Russian Communist Party, and 5 million barrels were contracted to the Russian Orthodox Church. "

Hello? this sounds really strange.... This sounds just too fake. I absolutely dont believe this. Russian Orthodox church receives 5million barrels of Oil. :cantbeli: Sorry.... And i was also under the impression the communist party in Russia isnt leading the country either.

[mustamato]

http://users.fmg.uva.nl/rsetoe/history/war_pictures/14_iran_iraq_war.jpg
Reagans envoy that provided Saddam with (N)BC weapons

http://users.fmg.uva.nl/rsetoe/history/war_pictures/13_iran_iraq_war.jpg
Wounded Iranian soldiers after Iraqi chemical weapons attack

And besides, the US Navy also helped the Iraqis out in the war by attacking
Iranian oil platforms and so forth. There was even one on this forum that bragged
about that he participated in those SF attacks in the 80´s. I think it was MARK.TIGGER

[Sir Zach of R.]

Ah, but remember, the Iranians had just taken some 150 Americans hostage. And the Iranian government didn't really give a damn about. "Eh, ain't our problem." was pretty much their response. Plus the Iranians actually moved in heavy armor around the American embassy. So technically, we had a pretty damn good reason to help him out. But after what Saddam did to his people, our friendship was pretty much tossed in the diplomatic food chopper and blended till extra chunky.
Anyone not get that? :)

[M1A2U2]

Its not that hard to comprehend obr spn. I know you love ignoring evidence and such butu can ignore this. Yes there is a communist party in russia and it has considerable strengh look it up if u dont believe me. Oil translates into money you fool its not like he sent 5 million barrels to the patriarchs house so he can fill up his car you dumbass. how stupid can you people be its not that difficult of a concept. Iraq gives the oil to the different organiszations and they sell it for a hige profit. Go back to school and learn about economics you dumbass liberals

[Russian Texan]

Its not that hard to comprehend obr spn. I know you love ignoring evidence and such butu can ignore this. Yes there is a communist party in russia and it has considerable strengh look it up if u dont believe me. Oil translates into money you fool its not like he sent 5 million barrels to the patriarchs house so he can fill up his car you dumbass. how stupid can you people be its not that difficult of a concept. Iraq gives the oil to the different organiszations and they sell it for a hige profit. Go back to school and learn about economics you dumbass liberals

M1A2U2, would you please help me, you see, I am trying to decide whether to put you in a "teenager" or a a "an ignorant idiot" category. So which one do you think is closer to you?

[fantassin]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!

Was getting worried; no French bashing for weeks, that was becoming really bizarre.

French basing is GOOD; it means the Bush clique is looking for excuses and for an easy target to divert all the flack it's getting for having lied to its people.

It means it's running short of credibility, if ever it had any.

Keep it coming, it's a sign of weakness, especially when Powell and De Villepin are at the same time meeting in NY...and it makes all the poodles happy because they feel nice and cozy under Uncle Sam's wing.

[Schwabo Elite]

Maybe the Frenchies used to be easy prey in warfare, but they are surely no easy prey on political level. I think Mr. Bush (or whoever runs the country in reality) is miscalculating.

Adressing all the guys in this forum who believe that Europe conspires against its "former" ally "La Grande Nation USA", erhh I mean the oldest and truest democracy in the world, I'd like to say:
Everyone did buisiness with Saddam Hussein. The French, the germans, the USA, even Russia and (as I am informed) the Ukrainians. But the only countries to drop their former ally (or to say allies as it becomes a phabit in these countries) are the USA and the UK. As mentioned before first you build up the BC arsenal of Saddam Hussein than bombed Iran and then dropped him, after he attacked Kuwait.
I know, I know, the Iranians deserved it, they took hostage some of your precious citizens... Oh my god. Either you bomb them out and free them or you shut up, but helping the Iraq YEARS AFTER is stupid. It neither helps the hostages (case solved before), nor anyone else. The only guy who profitted was Saddam, who was the only big local power in the area since you lost the Iran, because they got rid of their/your Shah. You needed a big country in the mid-east flanking the NATO Turkey with big resources and in the OPAC, the Iraq was number two choice, but better than nothing. No one blames you for this. That's cold war politics, no one cares any longer, we might even be happy, because loosing the mid-east region is contraproductive for all western countries. But the point is that you did not give a **** about Saddam being a "bad" person, and now your legastenic president tells us "he is evil", "he has BC weapons" and "we know for sure" (guess why!). I don't fight someone who is evil, I would have to fight every non-allied country then... Are you in any way aware of the s*** Bush told his European allies??
If you want to seize control in Iraq for any reason, tell us your real cause. We don't need to accept, but bear the consequences. If you think Saddam is a threat to your freedom/security show evidences, not fakes. I heard you feared that he produces new gasses. Bull****! Saddam was controlled until 1998. The UNO didn't find a **** and what they found they destroyed. The USAF and RAF bombed Iraq since 1991, if any factory survived that the USAF is worth **** and your intelligence, too. I doubt that so his only way ov having some stuff is having it left from 1991. This would be your stuff, since he was barely able to produce anything, anywhen at all. VX gas is unusable after 10 years of storage. 1991 + 10 yrs means your are 2 years late.
Tell me Saddam had contacts to Al-Qaeda I'll lough in your face. The first time Saddam discovered he was religious was even more fake than Bush discovering he was ever baptised. Saddam is a hard core nationalist. He admires Stalin and Hitle*. Don't tell me he gives a thing about religion. For Osama bin Laden Saddam Hussein ranges in the same category as the US president. For ObL Saddam is a whore who sold out to us "evil satans".
Your attacking Iraq was a farce, you knew it, we knew it so now go clean up the mess on your own. Your soldiers are slaughtered by guerillas in "a dime a dozen" numbers and you wonder why no one takes you serious.. You could at least have hidden some WMDs in Iraq and "found" them now. At least then we all could kep our face (not faith) and say "yeah they were right" let's bomb the bastard. But you can't even poker with a bad hand...
Your problem is: You are incompatible to communities. You like being allied to someone as long as he does what you say, if he doesn't you get rid of him, preferable by bombing or discreditting.
My free hint for you is this: Change that or the next century won't be an American century any more. A giant without friends is easy prey for all the little Davids out there and going down with you will be Europe and Israel. I, as a European, would like to stay allied to the USA, but not for the price of being a puppet to their clumsy and cowboy like foreign policy. France, Russia and Germany did exactly the right thing, and if I were the USA I would think twice before changing these three states as allies for Papua, Qatar and hinterworld country no#3.

SE

[Shadow]

Maybe the Frenchies used to be easy prey in warfare, but they are surely no easy prey on political level. I think Mr. Bush (or whoever runs the country in reality) is miscalculating.

Adressing all the guys in this forum who believe that Europe conspires against its "former" ally "La Grande Nation USA", erhh I mean the oldest and truest democracy in the world, I'd like to say:
Everyone did buisiness with Saddam Hussein. The French, the germans, the USA, even Russia and (as I am informed) the Ukrainians. But the only countries to drop their former ally (or to say allies as it becomes a phabit in these countries) are the USA and the UK. As mentioned before first you build up the BC arsenal of Saddam Hussein than bombed Iran and then dropped him, after he attacked Kuwait.
I know, I know, the Iranians deserved it, they took hostage some of your precious citizens... Oh my god. Either you bomb them out and free them or you shut up, but helping the Iraq YEARS AFTER is stupid. It neither helps the hostages (case solved before), nor anyone else. The only guy who profitted was Saddam, who was the only big local power in the area since you lost the Iran, because they got rid of their/your Shah. You needed a big country in the mid-east flanking the NATO Turkey with big resources and in the OPAC, the Iraq was number two choice, but better than nothing. No one blames you for this. That's cold war politics, no one cares any longer, we might even be happy, because loosing the mid-east region is contraproductive for all western countries. But the point is that you did not give a **** about Saddam being a "bad" person, and now your legastenic president tells us "he is evil", "he has BC weapons" and "we know for sure" (guess why!). I don't fight someone who is evil, I would have to fight every non-allied country then... Are you in any way aware of the s*** Bush told his European allies??
If you want to seize control in Iraq for any reason, tell us your real cause. We don't need to accept, but bear the consequences. If you think Saddam is a threat to your freedom/security show evidences, not fakes. I heard you feared that he produces new gasses. Bull****! Saddam was controlled until 1998. The UNO didn't find a **** and what they found they destroyed. The USAF and RAF bombed Iraq since 1991, if any factory survived that the USAF is worth **** and your intelligence, too. I doubt that so his only way ov having some stuff is having it left from 1991. This would be your stuff, since he was barely able to produce anything, anywhen at all. VX gas is unusable after 10 years of storage. 1991 + 10 yrs means your are 2 years late.
Tell me Saddam had contacts to Al-Qaeda I'll lough in your face. The first time Saddam discovered he was religious was even more fake than Bush discovering he was ever baptised. Saddam is a hard core nationalist. He admires Stalin and Hitle*. Don't tell me he gives a thing about religion. For Osama bin Laden Saddam Hussein ranges in the same category as the US president. For ObL Saddam is a whore who sold out to us "evil satans".
Your attacking Iraq was a farce, you knew it, we knew it so now go clean up the mess on your own. Your soldiers are slaughtered by guerillas in "a dime a dozen" numbers and you wonder why no one takes you serious.. You could at least have hidden some WMDs in Iraq and "found" them now. At least then we all could kep our face (not faith) and say "yeah they were right" let's bomb the bastard. But you can't even poker with a bad hand...
Your problem is: You are incompatible to communities. You like being allied to someone as long as he does what you say, if he doesn't you get rid of him, preferable by bombing or discreditting.
My free hint for you is this: Change that or the next century won't be an American century any more. A giant without friends is easy prey for all the little Davids out there and going down with you will be Europe and Israel. I, as a European, would like to stay allied to the USA, but not for the price of being a puppet to their clumsy and cowboy like foreign policy. France, Russia and Germany did exactly the right thing, and if I were the USA I would think twice before changing these three states as allies for Papua, Qatar and hinterworld country no#3.

SE

Word.

[M1A2U2]

You tell me Russian Texan...Ignorant Idiot, hmmmmm that makes sense a little redundant though maybe you should look up both words

[anonymous individual]

Its not that hard to comprehend obr spn. I know you love ignoring evidence and such butu can ignore this. Yes there is a communist party in russia and it has considerable strengh look it up if u dont believe me. Oil translates into money you fool its not like he sent 5 million barrels to the patriarchs house so he can fill up his car you dumbass. how stupid can you people be its not that difficult of a concept. Iraq gives the oil to the different organiszations and they sell it for a hige profit. Go back to school and learn about economics you dumbass liberals

rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Dennis G]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!

Was getting worried; no French bashing for weeks, that was becoming really bizarre.

French basing is GOOD; it means the Bush clique is looking for excuses and for an easy target to divert all the flack it's getting for having lied to its people.

It means it's running short of credibility, if ever it had any.

Keep it coming, it's a sign of weakness, especially when Powell and De Villepin are at the same time meeting in NY...and it makes all the poodles happy because they feel nice and cozy under Uncle Sam's wing.

rofl

[Seiyuuki]

Maybe the Frenchies used to be easy prey in warfare, but they are surely no easy prey on political level. I think Mr. Bush (or whoever runs the country in reality) is miscalculating.

Adressing all the guys in this forum who believe that Europe conspires against its "former" ally "La Grande Nation USA", erhh I mean the oldest and truest democracy in the world, I'd like to say:
Everyone did buisiness with Saddam Hussein. The French, the germans, the USA, even Russia and (as I am informed) the Ukrainians. But the only countries to drop their former ally (or to say allies as it becomes a phabit in these countries) are the USA and the UK. As mentioned before first you build up the BC arsenal of Saddam Hussein than bombed Iran and then dropped him, after he attacked Kuwait.
I know, I know, the Iranians deserved it, they took hostage some of your precious citizens... Oh my god. Either you bomb them out and free them or you shut up, but helping the Iraq YEARS AFTER is stupid. It neither helps the hostages (case solved before), nor anyone else. The only guy who profitted was Saddam, who was the only big local power in the area since you lost the Iran, because they got rid of their/your Shah. You needed a big country in the mid-east flanking the NATO Turkey with big resources and in the OPAC, the Iraq was number two choice, but better than nothing. No one blames you for this. That's cold war politics, no one cares any longer, we might even be happy, because loosing the mid-east region is contraproductive for all western countries. But the point is that you did not give a **** about Saddam being a "bad" person, and now your legastenic president tells us "he is evil", "he has BC weapons" and "we know for sure" (guess why!). I don't fight someone who is evil, I would have to fight every non-allied country then... Are you in any way aware of the s*** Bush told his European allies??
If you want to seize control in Iraq for any reason, tell us your real cause. We don't need to accept, but bear the consequences. If you think Saddam is a threat to your freedom/security show evidences, not fakes. I heard you feared that he produces new gasses. Bull****! Saddam was controlled until 1998. The UNO didn't find a **** and what they found they destroyed. The USAF and RAF bombed Iraq since 1991, if any factory survived that the USAF is worth **** and your intelligence, too. I doubt that so his only way ov having some stuff is having it left from 1991. This would be your stuff, since he was barely able to produce anything, anywhen at all. VX gas is unusable after 10 years of storage. 1991 + 10 yrs means your are 2 years late.
Tell me Saddam had contacts to Al-Qaeda I'll lough in your face. The first time Saddam discovered he was religious was even more fake than Bush discovering he was ever baptised. Saddam is a hard core nationalist. He admires Stalin and Hitle*. Don't tell me he gives a thing about religion. For Osama bin Laden Saddam Hussein ranges in the same category as the US president. For ObL Saddam is a whore who sold out to us "evil satans".
Your attacking Iraq was a farce, you knew it, we knew it so now go clean up the mess on your own. Your soldiers are slaughtered by guerillas in "a dime a dozen" numbers and you wonder why no one takes you serious.. You could at least have hidden some WMDs in Iraq and "found" them now. At least then we all could kep our face (not faith) and say "yeah they were right" let's bomb the bastard. But you can't even poker with a bad hand...
Your problem is: You are incompatible to communities. You like being allied to someone as long as he does what you say, if he doesn't you get rid of him, preferable by bombing or discreditting.
My free hint for you is this: Change that or the next century won't be an American century any more. A giant without friends is easy prey for all the little Davids out there and going down with you will be Europe and Israel. I, as a European, would like to stay allied to the USA, but not for the price of being a puppet to their clumsy and cowboy like foreign policy. France, Russia and Germany did exactly the right thing, and if I were the USA I would think twice before changing these three states as allies for Papua, Qatar and hinterworld country no#3.

SE

Wow...it's like beating a dead horse!!! Sorry, but your choice of words doesn't really make that a valid argument, or is it because the same thing have been said over and over and over and over and over again.



Damn it, why don't you Europeans get off your lazy asses and start the freaking EU already so we can polarize the world, start WW3 then rebuild the world, then go into space and fight some Martians!!!!!!

Note: Look for sarcarsm when reading.

[Operation Ivy]

Ah, but remember, the Iranians had just taken some 150 Americans hostage. And the Iranian government didn't really give a damn about. "Eh, ain't our problem." was pretty much their response. Plus the Iranians actually moved in heavy armor around the American embassy. So technically, we had a pretty damn good reason to help him out. But after what Saddam did to his people, our friendship was pretty much tossed in the diplomatic food chopper and blended till extra chunky.
Anyone not get that? :)

hehe u got'em woot

[budanski]

Hi Mom!

[Kitsune]

Perhaps I had misjudged you budanski. But you are getting better. In your last post there was one right sentence. One sentence of pure and unbiased truth. One sentence, I wholeheartedly agree with:

budanski wrote:

People in Amsterdam like to ride bicycles

Go on budanski. ;)

[budanski]

Just as Francis Fukuyama, a Johns Hopkins historian and author puts it, we americans don't give a "flying f*ck" what you europeans think. (http://www.iht.com/articles/125491.html) ;)

*disclaimer: I added the "flying f*ck" part.

[MARINO]

sorry

[Kitsune]

I knew that budanski. Unfortunately, the Brits, the Spanish and the Polish seem not to know. But they will find out eventually.

Fukuyama by the way, is not the brightest man on earth. "End of History" showed a serious lack of imagination on his part.


And another thing: That Americans with their "Richest 5% own most of the country" society actually accuse Europeans as being undemocratic and ruled by elites...that's a whopper.

[Luxembourger]

France, Russia and Germany did exactly the right thing, and if I were the USA I would think twice before changing these three states as allies for Papua, Qatar and hinterworld country

The french government did not the right thing ,, they portayed themselves as the biggest leaders and the only leaders who are for peace.
They did not tell the public the truth why they were not supporting the war.

That Germany did not go to War in Iraq is understandable ( verständlich) for me and they cannot be blamed for that . First because of their history
secondly because they are already over stretched in many parts of the world . They have forces in the balkans, in Djibouti and in Afghanistan . They do a great job and are one of the european nations that contributes most fo the r war against terrorists .

[budanski]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!

Was getting worried; no French bashing for weeks, that was becoming really bizarre.

French basing is GOOD; it means the Bush clique is looking for excuses and for an easy target to divert all the flack it's getting for having lied to its people.

It means it's running short of credibility, if ever it had any.

Keep it coming, it's a sign of weakness, especially when Powell and De Villepin are at the same time meeting in NY...and it makes all the poodles happy because they feel nice and cozy under Uncle Sam's wing.

Uh, didnt the French signed onto Resolution 1441 as well? Seems what little credibility the French have, is at stake as well.

[Kitsune]

@Luxembourger:

Unfortunately, most Americans seem not to realize this. All of this was instantly forgotten when Germany dared to say that we are against the Iraq war.

[NcDeuce]

John gets in a fight and gets his ass kicked.

Bob and Tom come and help John.

10 weeks later...

Bob gets into a fight. Tom, of course, helps. They could use some extra help but John continues to play on the monkey bars.

Bob and Tom win. They find lots of money and candy. John runs off the monkey bars and demands money and candy.

Bob and Tom should pummel John. But they don't.

[mustamato]

John gets in a fight and gets his ass kicked.
Bob and Tom come and help John.
10 weeks later...
Bob gets into a fight. Tom, of course, helps. They could use some extra help but John continues to play on the monkey bars.
Bob and Tom win. They find lots of money and candy. John runs off the monkey bars and demands money and candy.
Bob and Tom should pummel John. But they don't.

Because exams is coming up and Billy-Bob and Tom are too stupid
to make it through without the assistance of "old EUnuck John"? :)

[NcDeuce]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35172

[Russian Texan]

You tell me Russian Texan...Ignorant Idiot, hmmmmm that makes sense a little redundant though maybe you should look up both words

Neither "ignorant" nor "idiot" can accurately describe you based on your statement, so i decided to go for both because you deserve so much more than just one simple word.... :) So which one is it?

[Seiyuuki]

And another thing: That Americans with their "Richest 5% own most of the country" society actually accuse Europeans as being undemocratic and ruled by elites...that's a whopper.

...And another thing: That Germans with there "I'm a stereotypical idiot that know everything about the cowboy Americans, their way of life and politics even though I don't jack **** live in the freaking country, also with my stereotypical...yippie...I'm Socialist with my 'free' healthcare and 5% richest in the U.S. own the whole country line of thinking"...make me right!!!

[Seoulstriker]

And another thing: That Americans with their "Richest 5% own most of the country" society actually accuse Europeans as being undemocratic and ruled by elites...that's a whopper.

...And another thing: That Germans with there "I'm a stereotypical idiot that know everything about the cowboy Americans, their way of life and politics even though I don't jack **** live in the freaking country, also with my stereotypical...yippie...I'm Socialist with my 'free' healthcare and 5% richest in the U.S. own the whole country line of thinking"...make me right!!!

rofl

i couldn't have said it better. :)

[Sixgun Symphony]

just because someone said they either become terrorists, rogue states, or traitors.

Grow up already. No one wants to be a US puppy. Some european states want to be independent. The US also supported saddam during the war with iran so don't blame the french. At least they didnt turn against him when they had no use for him anymore.


It was the French who built a nuclear reactor for Saddam Hussien. So why should we trust the French on WMD's in Iraq?


http://www.factsofisrael.com/en/files/saddam-and-chirac-75.jpg
Partners in 1975: Saddam
Hussein and Jacques Chirac
Late 70's: France builds
a nuclear reactor for Iraq

[fantassin]

The stupidity of this thread is amazing.

The USA are already facing the hatred of most of the muslim third world who'd be happy to see the end of it. Now, instead of capitalizing on the past 9/11 wave of sympathy that swept across Europe, the crass stupidity of some short sighted rednecks has also managed to now turn many of its oldest allies into hostility.

Give Bush another 4 years and then I would not want to be an American without a rifle anywhere in the world.

You have no clue of the damages the antics of a bunch of uncultured cowboys have created in Europe.

Keep up the good work like that and the only way for any American to feel comfortable abroad will be either in a US military base or in some parts of Israel.

Military power has never made anybody popular.

[StarvingStudent47]

You have no clue of the damages the antics of a bunch of uncultured cowboys have created in Europe...Military power has never made anybody popular.

Is that so?

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs2/45075.gif
Young and old survivors in Dachau cheer approaching U.S. troops.

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/83818.jpg
Polish prisoners in Dachau toast their liberation from the camp.

http://www.paris.org/Expos/Liberation/gifs/4th.champs.ely.gif
The U.S. Army 28th Infantry Division marches through Paris at deGaulle's request.

http://www.paris.org/Expos/Liberation/gifs/jubilation.gif
Parisians celebrate their liberation.

"Uncultured cowboys"--from Churchill to Bush--are the ones to count on when tyranny comes knocking.

[Sixgun Symphony]

It is the stupidity of the womanly weak homo****** hippie socialist-commie Europeans that amaze me.

They are not liked by many Americans because those hippie ****s have condemned US for fighting back against these muslim terrorists. To hell with 'em!

They are going to lose their own homelands to the millions of muslim immigrants that are moving in. The Euro-Trash are not men enough to make love or make war. Thus the declining European population as the fecund muslim immigrants replace them.

Weak, Womanly faggot Euro-Trash!

[radon]

It is the stupidity of many womanly weak homo****** socialist-communist Europeans that amaze me.

They are not liked by many Americans because we take a strong pro-active defense.

They are going to lose their own homelands to the millions of muslim immigrants that are moving in. The Euro-Trash are not men enough to make love or make war. Thus the declining European population as the fecund muslim immigrants replace them.

When will the wave of mexicans reach Seattle?. California is getting entirely mexicanized anyway...

And "the enrich out culture" is just bs and hypocrisy. Most people absolutely dont care about theyr culture, and going to a ethno restaurant doesent count. They are being let in so they can do lowpaid sweatshop work , which nobody else wants to do. And i admit it is true the Americans have it better with higher birth rates..

[Sixgun Symphony]

Radon,

Now I regret bashing all Europeans for the BS of the hippies over there. Problem is that there are too many hippies in Europe and yes, we have too many of them here too.

[fantassin]

The use of WWII images shows the lack of depth of your position. Nobody's complaining about 1944's America. The date is now 2004.

It would be like posting a picture of Lafayette or of the french navy at Yorktown every time somebody bashes France to show you that the USA ows France big time.It's at the same time pointless and childish.

Your current government has turned your nationality into a liability; I regret it because we are fundamentaly of the same origins and cultures.

I will not post anything else on this subject because fuelling hate threads like this one which are nothing but smoke screens to hide the blatant shortcomings of a bunch of "faith-based" politicians is playing their own games.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Fantassin,

You and the rest of those hippies in the Old Europe are becoming less and less relevent.

[citizen-k]

The stupidity of this thread is amazing.

The USA are already facing the hatred of most of the muslim third world who'd be happy to see the end of it. Now, instead of capitalizing on the past 9/11 wave of sympathy that swept across Europe, the crass stupidity of some short sighted rednecks has also managed to now turn many of its oldest allies into hostility.

Give Bush another 4 years and then I would not want to be an American without a rifle anywhere in the world.

You have no clue of the damages the antics of a bunch of uncultured cowboys have created in Europe.

Keep up the good work like that and the only way for any American to feel comfortable abroad will be either in a US military base or in some parts of Israel.

Military power has never made anybody popular.

rofl

There we have a frightened European who got to understand for the first time what will happen when the Muslims in Europe will get angry.

(Of course its the Americans fault - if it wasn't for them Muslim Jihad would have been much more polite)

I just hope the USA WILL NOT come to rescue Europe from 500 years of muslim tyranny!

[Kriz]

You guys are all so pathetic, instead of trying to come to a general opinion all you is talk **** about each other.

Just like our world leaders do, hence why they are loosing the war on terrorism.

[Sixgun Symphony]

There we have a frightened European who got to understand for the first time what will happen when the Muslims in Europe will get angry.


Ditto!

[martinexsquaddie]

coming form the UK and having been a part of the 1st gulf war and with my twin out in Basra. I find this slagging off of europe laughable.
Gulf war one Bush snr managed to get the french to commit ground forces that were actually there for the fighting phrase. rather than the ragagtag peacekeepers he's got on the ground now.
Although the french did'nt cover themselves with glory at the UN the US did'nt convince many with there argument. Which was'nt Saddam is an evil dictator that needs to be dealt with sooner than later.
It was Saddam was a Direct threat to the world which he was'nt any wmds he has are so well hidden they hav'nt turned up yet :lol:
as an american president Bush and his team have made there job much harder than it needed to be by very poor Diplomancy if your going to fight a global war on terror it helps if you get at least the Democratic nations of the world on side. your get better results with a kind word and a big stick than just a big stick alone.

[Tengu]

Sixgun Symphony, fantassin does not speak for all europeans. In fact our government was against the war. Thats why most belgians (most of them pretty ignorant) don't support the war. But there are those (like me) who support the war, who defend america and americans in real life and on the internet.

Fantassin would like you to believe we are enemies but in fact we are still good allies. We hunt terrorist scum down like crazy, our troops are in afghanistan and before, during and after the war many troops and equipment passed through belgium.

Don't worry about europe, most countries in europe supported the war and it is only a matter of time before the rest recieve a wake up call and experience a bloody terrorist attack.

[budanski]

Gulf war one Bush snr managed to get the french to commit ground forces that were actually there for the fighting phrase. rather than the ragagtag peacekeepers he's got on the ground now.
Although the french did'nt cover themselves with glory at the UN the US did'nt convince many with there argument. Which was'nt Saddam is an evil dictator that needs to be dealt with sooner than later.
Martin, if you remember, the French even managed to drag its foot and agree to UN action on the first Gulf War.


It was Saddam was a Direct threat to the world which he was'nt any wmds he has are so well hidden they hav'nt turned up yet :lol:
Stand back and get ready for this shocker: The reason the US and its coalition (non-unilateral) went to war was because IRAQ WAS IN VIOLATION OF U.N. RESOLUTION 1441. Now I think the U.N. is as worthless organization as most americans agree. But no one seriously contends that Saddam was abiding by the 12 or so resolutions passed against him in 11 years. He was violating the "will" of the world. Its no surprise we're hearing from countries with no backbone to enforce these resolutions.



as an american president Bush and his team have made there job much harder than it needed to be by very poor Diplomancy if your going to fight a global war on terror it helps if you get at least the Democratic nations of the world on side. your get better results with a kind word and a big stick than just a big stick alone.
Lets not forget by going into Iraq, theres been a few countries who have had second thoughts or doubts on what the US is willing to do. Post Iraq, proliferators such as Libya, Syria, and Iran are attempting dialogue with the U.S. Of course, this doesnt settle well with the EU. They'd better to sell themselves as the alternative to the US. Gadhafi had a change of heart and allowed inspectors in, the Iranian mullahs agreed to let IAEA inspections in, and as recently, Abdul Qadeer Khan's confession in Pakistan.

[NcDeuce]

your get better results with a kind word and a big stick than just a big stick alone.

True. But there is only one big stick in the world. ;)

[StarvingStudent47]

The use of WWII images shows the lack of depth of your position. Nobody's complaining about 1944's America. The date is now 2004.

You used the word "never." "Military power has NEVER made anybody popular." "Never" includes "throughout all history." If you were only talking about 2004, you should have said "Nowadays military power does not make anyone popular nowadays."

Even then, it wouldn't be true. Ever met an Iraqi exile who fled Saddam's tyranny?

[cut]

Stand back and get ready for this shocker: The reason the US and its coalition (non-unilateral) went to war was because IRAQ WAS IN VIOLATION OF U.N. RESOLUTION 1441. Now I think the U.N. is as worthless organization as most americans agree.


That's fvcking great and yet wasn't the reason given for starting the war, and wasn't the reason so many countries were against this intervention.

Most americans think the UN worthless? rofl if that were true then I'd have to reconsider my of the (seemingly not-so) great american public.

The reason why some americans think the UN is useless (other than being uninformed) is because it went against the US, now if it is to enforce rules for little countries it should be able to do it on the rest of us. But the truth is any country that has a permanent place on the security council are untouchable, which is not fair, but then the international system certainly isn't.

The UN is a creation of the US if it looses credibility so does the US, the UN is in fact a child of the US, which reminds me of a something I read somewhere else on this site...


The thing that impresses me the most about America is the way parents obey their children.
- King Edward VIII *


Why get rid of something that let's you get away with murder?


*courtesey of Hood

[NcDeuce]

In England we have come to rely upon a comfortable time-lag of fifty years or a century intervening between the perception that something ought to be done and a serious attempt to do it.
H. G. Wells



Get tanked.

[cut]

so are you not going to argue my point then? just flame?


No one can be as calculatedly rude as the British, which amazes Americans, who do not understand studied insult and can only offer abuse as a substitute.
- Paul Gallico

[BlackRain]

Set Rhetoric level to Low ~ Accomplished.

I believe the American public is just frightfully fed up with the inaction and hypocritical malfeasance of the U.N..

An example for you:

Iraq was in material breach of 17 U.N. Security Council resolutions passed over 12 years. This includes Resolution 1441, which gave Saddam one last chance to comply with the resolutions. The U.N. failed in its collective obligation to enforce it's resolutions. Logic trap: Why exist as an organizaiton if you don't follow through?

The USA stepped up and enforced resolution 1441 to the disdain of the back seat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks everywhere.

Ask the folks in Rwanda where the UN was in enforcing resolutions there. Answer: You can't they are dead.

The UN was a great idea. However, the organization has broken down and in need of major reform. Fraud, waste, and abuse eats up UN budgets. UN diplomatic postings are usually nepotism rewards. Instead of the best and brightest minds, we get UN cafeteria looting.

[obd]

First of all "Cut" it was the United States who was the driving force behind the very creation of the United Nations (which is why its major headquarters is in the United States) so why dont you have a little respect before you start saying Americans are "misinformed". Without "Americans" you wouldnt have an international body called the UN to defend you wanker.

Second, there are several reasons why some Americans think the UN is useless: First off would be failure to act in Bosnia until it was too late, failure to act in Kosovo until it was too late, inability to restore order in Somalia (you remmember when the United States FIRST went in with 10,000 Marines things got real real quite but after they left, the UN took over, and than the US pulled out its small amount of Rangers/Delta after Oct. 3 ambush and its big pocket book the UN also fled with its tail tucked between its legs). Keep in mind that the US pulled out to give the UN a chance to show it could actually do anything meaningfull. Lets face it, Somalia should have been a cake walk for the UN. Only 10,000 US troops secured the area in a short time and confiscated thousands upon thousands of illegal arms. The UN was suppossed to take an already stabalized yet unsecure area and finish the job the US so ably started but nooooooo they couldnt do that and ounce the US left, they proved that without America they are like a bunch of babies thrown in a lake and lets not forget Sierra Leone where the British eventually went in themselves and restored order because the mighty UN was too damn nervous about violence and such..

Hell, even now the UN fled from Iraq after a few bomb attacks. THE UN !!!! I mean, it has so much ****ing potential and it has so many resources, including the resources of the United States, but it just cant get its act together. There are so many competing interests that it is practically paralized into inaction whenever any serious crisis emerges. About its only use is as a sounding board for weak nations pissed off at the real powerhouses of the world. Hell, the biggest thing the UN's gotten itself all worked up over in the last decade has been the US invasion of Iraq and could they do a damn thing about it?? Nope, non at all although they did manage to delay things long enough for Saddam to kill off about 10,000 petential rivals in case he had to hide in a damn holesomewhere and then re-emerge after we(hopefully) gave up and left. The UN also did serve as a good world stage for nations like France and China who were owed alot of $$$ by the Hitler of the Middle East and wanted it back to delay things in an attempt to save their money man.

I am going to post pictures I saved of innocent Iraqi's with signs telling France and Germany to F U C K OFF and telling them they are the real ones with Iraqis blood on thier hands and such. They are really good pics. I will also post interviews I saved from the Iraqi educated class who were more aware than most of Frances ties with the "Butcher of Baghdad".

Does the UN bother itself with nuclear proliferation on the Korean peninsula? Not really any meanigfull action, only meaningless words to no effect. Does the UN do anything about illegal Israeli settlements or Palestinian terror tactics? Nope, accept spout off at the mouth every day like small children. Does the UN go into Africa and help with the AIDS epidemic or stability?? Nope, not after Somalia.They do a few publicity stunts and contribute some meaningless millions here and there that is quickly dried up in corruption. Does the US contribute more to fight AIDS than the UN, whcih has infinately more resources? Yep. Has the UN actually committed itself to take any action which was even slightly risky in the last decade? Nope. Is the UN just a body where people get together and wine like babies at the percieved injustice of the world while leaving it up to other alliances to actually do a damn thing about it?? Yep.

Does the UN try to get the United States to pay for every damn thing they do? Yep. In fact, although we contributed more than any other nation they still tried to say we owe them money. Does the US only even concern itself with the UN because there is no real altenative? Yep. Should there be an alternate world body? Yep.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The UN is a creation of the US if it looses credibility so does the US, the UN is in fact a child of the US, which reminds me of a something I read somewhere else on this site...



The UN is a creation of the Left-Liberal Roosevelt Administration. Eleanor Roosevelt and Alger Hiss (commie spy) were big players in drafting the UN charter.

These people were socialists international with dreams making the UN into the framework for a global government. I hope that president Bush will do more to make the UN irrelevent. Then maybe we will see this globalist organization finally dissolve.

[Caesar]

any ways why would Russia sell out for oil, i thought they have alot of it. i think we should nuke france and Quebec , damn french

:slap:

Wow, you jealous racist **** face, you are really interesting. I'm from Quebec and those comments are unacceptable. Who are you to say such things about other Canadians?

[cut]

Set Rhetoric level to Low ~ Accomplished.

I believe the American public is just frightfully fed up with the inaction and hypocritical malfeasance of the U.N..

first I'd like to point out that the UN wouldn't exist without primarily the US and then the other members of the security council. It was created above all to keep the anarchic world society in order. Well for the minions in any case, because the UN has a tier system, which is about as fair as saddams regime. BUT it works because it allows the US to play the policeman of the world, the problem is the UN has no way of stopping the US stepping over the line, the rules of the UN are those of Western civilisation, no-one else is taken into account. Hence it is in our advantage.


An example for you:

Iraq was in material breach of 17 U.N. Security Council resolutions passed over 12 years. This includes Resolution 1441, which gave Saddam one last chance to comply with the resolutions. The U.N. failed in its collective obligation to enforce it's resolutions. Logic trap: Why exist as an organizaiton if you don't follow through?

The USA stepped up and enforced resolution 1441 to the disdain of the back seat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks everywhere.

Now I'm not going to argue this comes I was pro-war so I'm not really in a position to. My point was about getting rid of the UN. This Iraq war bull**** and it's inquiries is going on in the UK and the USA, so I think that it could easily just go on and on.


Ask the folks in Rwanda where the UN was in enforcing resolutions there. Answer: You can't they are dead. yeah just like the DRC too at the moment what are you some bleeding heart liberal? Who's the UN going to send? Who can get there who wants to spend the money? The US has a lot of money they are quite happy to through around but they can't go because of over-streching because Bush started a couple of wars, same goes for the UK. If the UN could do something about this don't you think they would?


The UN was a great idea. However, the organization has broken down and in need of major reform. Fraud, waste, and abuse eats up UN budgets. UN diplomatic postings are usually nepotism rewards. Instead of the best and brightest minds, we get UN cafeteria looting.
Don't flatter yourself, and what, do you suppose should it be replaced by?Nothing? That'll work, really..

P.S. ignore the quote in last post thing I was just getting back at NcDeuce for being cocky.

[cut]

First of all "Cut" it was the United States who was the driving force behind the very creation of the United Nations (which is why its major headquarters is in the United States) so why dont you have a little respect before you start saying Americans are "misinformed". Without "Americans" you wouldnt have an international body called the UN to defend you wanker.

NO FVCKING ****, MATE, well done!


Second, there are several reasons why some Americans think the UN is useless: First off would be failure to act in Bosnia until it was too late, failure to act in Kosovo until it was too late, inability to restore order in Somalia (you remmember when the United States FIRST went in with 10,000 Marines things got real real quite but after they left, the UN took over, and than the US pulled out its small amount of Rangers/Delta after Oct. 3 ambush and its big pocket book the UN also fled with its tail tucked between its legs). Keep in mind that the US pulled out to give the UN a chance to show it could actually do anything meaningfull. Lets face it, Somalia should have been a cake walk for the UN. Only 10,000 US troops secured the area in a short time and confiscated thousands upon thousands of illegal arms. The UN was suppossed to take an already stabalized yet unsecure area and finish the job the US so ably started but nooooooo they couldnt do that and ounce the US left, they proved that without America they are like a bunch of babies thrown in a lake and lets not forget Sierra Leone where the British eventually went in themselves and restored order because the mighty UN was too damn nervous about violence and such..

Then REFORM THE UN don't get rid of it you want to bring back alliance like pre-WWI?


Hell, even now the UN fled from Iraq after a few bomb attacks. THE UN !!!!
the UN are back in today for your ignorant information, next time they should set themselves up in Basra where soldiers keep the peace.




I mean, it has so much f*** potential and it has so many resources, including the resources of the United States, but it just cant get its act together. There are so many competing interests that it is practically paralized into inaction whenever any serious crisis emerges. About its only use is as a sounding board for weak nations pissed off at the real powerhouses of the world. Hell, the biggest thing the UN's gotten itself all worked up over in the last decade has been the US invasion of Iraq and could they do a damn thing about it?? Nope, non at all although they did manage to delay things long enough for Saddam to kill off about 10,000 petential rivals in case he had to hide in a damn holesomewhere and then re-emerge after we(hopefully) gave up and left. The UN also did serve as a good world stage for nations like France and China who were owed alot of $$$ by the Hitler of the Middle East and wanted it back to delay things in an attempt to save their money man.

so what did you do? screw them over! why? because Bush couldn't wait to save face for his dad, after the democrats had denied republicans power and revenge.



I am going to post pictures I saved of innocent Iraqi's with signs telling France and Germany to F U C K OFF and telling them they are the real ones with Iraqis blood on thier hands and such. They are really good pics. I will also post interviews I saved from the Iraqi educated class who were more aware than most of Frances ties with the "Butcher of Baghdad".

off course but then I could post iraqis telling us to fvck off or maybe the bombings would be more appropriate?


Does the UN bother itself with nuclear proliferation on the Korean peninsula? Not really any meanigfull action, only meaningless words to no effect. who do you propose it does that? with what army? the UN army? give me the name of a country that can possibly take on a nuclear power at this point in time and would be willing to do so, because let's remember the UN can't force anyone to do anything, not even making the writers of the rules to stick by them. Just like everyone else had to.




Does the UN do anything about illegal Israeli settlements or
this is an internal issue for israel, I don't think Israel would want the UN to get involved


Palestinian terror tactics? Nope, accept spout off at the mouth every day like small children. just like spain with ETA or what about Britain before the peace process?


Does the UN go into Africa and help with the AIDS epidemic or stability??

yes, it does actually, want do you want troops?


Nope, not after Somalia.They do a few publicity stunts and contribute some meaningless millions here and there that is quickly dried up in corruption. really? let's see some articles prooving that ALL the money disapeared through corruption


Does the US contribute more to fight AIDS than the UN, whcih has infinately more resources? Yep
WHAT FVCKING RSOURCES? the UN is not a state, if has no industry it is not a government, it is simply a place for nations to discuss and vote on international issues.

.
Has the UN actually committed itself to take any action which was even slightly risky in the last decade? Nope.
What do you mean what? would it do go into iraq illegally? take over Russia? What do you mean?



Is the UN just a body where people get together and wine like babies at the percieved injustice of the world while leaving it up to other alliances to actually do a damn thing about it?? Yep.
Has there been a nuclear war between Pakistan and India yet?


Does the UN try to get the United States to pay for every damn thing they do? Yep. In fact, although we contributed more than any other nation they still tried to say we owe them money.
And for that you get a place on the security council and effectively control the UN, proportionally to the amount of money Germany actually has they contributed far more and they don't even have a place on the security council.



Does the US only even concern itself with the UN because there is no real altenative? Yep. Should there be an alternate world body? Yep.

ok so you want another kind of international body? would you want it to democratic, do you want the people of the world represented? HELL NO because that is why you get all of the problems above.

You want a international dictatorship where the US governement can do what it likes and the governments that dare to disagree get killed. Do you see the ressemblence here between what Saddam did in Iraq and what the Bush administration are doing to other governments?

Good & Evil? Bollocks if you believe that you are delusional, believe in the war for your own reasons not because of the bull**** governments tell you.

[cut]

The UN is a creation of the US if it looses credibility so does the US, the UN is in fact a child of the US, which reminds me of a something I read somewhere else on this site...



The UN is a creation of the Left-Liberal Roosevelt Administration. Eleanor Roosevelt and Alger Hiss (commie spy) were big players in drafting the UN charter.

These people were socialists international with dreams making the UN into the framework for a global government. I hope that president Bush will do more to make the UN irrelevent. Then maybe we will see this globalist organization finally dissolve.

and what would you have instead? nothing? a puppet organistion that doesn't say no when other governments disagree?

[Schwabo Elite]

Sometimes I think Sixgun just exists, because the admins and mods agreed to have someone in the board who lookes as if being the ultimate archetype of the US-cowboy. Exactly the one cowboy he thinks every European "homo-left-wing-damn-frenchie-loving-fagot" (plz correct if I got the wrong combination/set up) hates/fears (tick appropriate) so much.

Bt I guess he thinks the same about certain *cough* maybe mes *cough* (to cite him once more)... So we both better stick to our roles, don't we?!

SE

[ibstolidude]

the UN is in fact a child of the US, which reminds me of a something I read somewhere else on this site...


The thing that impresses me the most about America is the way parents obey their children.
- King Edward VIII *
so does the above quote mean that the US (parent) should not have listened to its child(the un )? So they did the right thing?

People may respond a little more if you actually made a point rather than a rant.

[StarvingStudent47]

The United Nations lost all credibility a long time before 2003.

1) Kurt Waldheim as Secretary General? WTF? Well, I guess he's better than Heinrich Himmler...

2) Libya chairing the Human Rights Commission? Riiiiiiight...

Those are just two things that take away the entire organization's credibility. The USA may have helped create it, but it ain't our fault it turned into a Congress of tyrants and butchers.

[cut]

Those are just two things that take away the entire organization's credibility. The USA may have helped create it, but it ain't our fault it turned into a Congress of tyrants and butchers.

among which the you count US, Britain and France no doubt?

[NcDeuce]

In England we have come to rely upon a comfortable time-lag of fifty years or a century intervening between the perception that something ought to be done and a serious attempt to do it.
H. G. Wells



Get tanked.

[StarvingStudent47]

Those are just two things that take away the entire organization's credibility. The USA may have helped create it, but it ain't our fault it turned into a Congress of tyrants and butchers.

among which the you count US, Britain and France no doubt?

Nope. I may disagree with the policies of France, but Chirac is neither a tyrant nor a butcher. He's a f-cking putz, but he's neither a tyrant nor a butcher.

However, here is the list of United Nations member states (http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html). Count the democracies. We've got a few countries in North America, much of Europe, and a few countries from the rest of the world. Now count the brutal dictatorships, corrupt-jokes-of-governments, and all-around-icky-countries, from Syria to Cambodia to Sudan to Tajikistan to Saudi Arabia to Turkmenistan to the People's Republic of China...

Who has the majority? It sure as hell ain't the democracies. You count them if you don't believe me.

[cut]

who cares about majority? Who has the Power? That's the important thing.

Would you prefer we kicked all the non-democracies out and then set them straight dubya "cowboy" style?

[Luxembourger]

he UN is a creation of the Left-Liberal Roosevelt Administration. Eleanor Roosevelt and Alger Hiss (commie spy)

????????????? the UN was creation of them ,,,,,but that Alger hiss was a commie spy didn t know that .
I would also rather say " liberal" for Roosevel" LEft is too strong , left is better to desribe the socialists in europe

By the way what was wrong with roosevelt ? I think he was a great president of the US who did much remember NEW deal during the 30s during which the economy was badly hit due to the 1929 stock exchange crisis.

[Schwabo Elite]

By the way, who gives a damn about democracy or not democracy. Democracy is by far not the only political form that can work out well for people. Sure I think it is the best that I can and want to live in, but thinking of history and traditions I can understand other people like a monarchy better. And don't tell me every people not living in a democracy are being surpressed, sure alot are, but not all. It is more a thing of perception, and surely alot people think democracy is more closely to anarchy and chaos, because it disturbes their perception of "order" and "law". We thought the same in Europe when democracy was first seen around here, or why do you think we battled the French after their revolution?!

SE

[Luxembourger]

we battled the French after their revolution?!

also during the revolution

[Tengu]

That debat-club some call the UN has the biggest collection of dictators in the world: http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html . They are supposed to keep the world safe, haha, what a joke.

[cut]

and the un doesn't?

[obd]

no Cut it doesnt. I know this is shocking for yo to hear, but the UN is completely useless accept maybe as a souding off board for weaker nations that otherwise would get no "attention" which is good and all as it levels the playing field a bit. Beyond that mate, the UN couldnt agree on which shoe to tie first if it ever came to a decision on that!!!!

[obd]

Hey Cut, good way to act like an idiot and put in a little crybaby "well if the UN had been in British controlled Basra they woulda been safe" bullcrap. Everyone knows the Brits were given the candy assed panzie assignment. Basra is 99% shiite. The US took the hard areas where there are fault lines of Shiite and Sunni and lots of old Saddam loyalists. I would love to see the British soldiers piss themsevles if they ever get Sammara or any are north of Baghdad. But of course that wont ever happen because there is no way in hell the British govnt would ever send it troops there. But thats ok, you guys can keep Basra. It sure as hell took you long enough to take it in the first place. I think UN forces had overun all of North Iraq, taken every major city including Baghdad by the time you Brits sauntered into Basra when the war was over and the Iraqi's had already surrendered. It was a good tactic though and it probabyl saved alot of Brit lives so I cant blame them......

Fact of the matter Cut (you retard) is that Koffi Annan and his little UN only are beginning to come back after a HELL of alot of prodding by ......guess who.....the United States you sumb ****. The F'ing Japanese were willign to come to Iraq as thier first combat tour since WW2 and the UN wasnt!!! What a load of panzies.

And yes Cut you moron, the UN does have resources for christ sake. Im glad to see that you didnt assume it was its own country or anything but to ask "what resources??" like Im a moron for even propossing that fact is pure idiocy and shows what little you know. The UN has many millions in potential resources if it could just get its act together. After all, it is a representative body for the world and thus could conceivably gather a HUGE sum of money for any project it wished but,,,,,hold on there is a catch.....since the UN cant agree on a DAMN THING EVER!!!! they never are able to raise nearly as much money as they theoretically could assuming it was structured properly and thus.......ding ding ding they are USELESS!!!!

Also for your information the "UN Army" fought in Korea alongside the United States. Next combinations of UN memebers forces come togother to from what is essentially a "UN Army" under unified command and not the command of the host nations. Only the US and some other nations not willign to see thier troops misused and abused by the various 4th rate militaries that comprise the UN refuse to tlet thier valuable and skilled soldiers fall under UN command (which is an oxymoron in itself) Second, in reality, there might be about 5 reps from the UN tip toeing through Iraq at the moment like frightened sewer rats so that hardly qualifies as UN presence but I suppose when I said the UN fled Iraq, I should have mentioned them so that you didnt call me "ignorant".

And your right Cut, there hasnt been a nuclear war between India and Pak yet, They have only been on the knife edge of it more than ounce so why should the UN bother right?? Jessus your a moron. I know, let the UN just sit still until the two sides have annihilated eachother and the nuclear fallout has destroyed much of the economies in that part of Asia and then, after 50 years of waiting for the fallout to settle, another 100 years for the UN to take thier vote and make their arguments about why UN forces should be sent into such a bad area where they might be attacked by a few roaches who were hearty enough to survive and might have mutated into man eating beasts, maybe then the UN can go in and fullfill its mission of "global security and peace". HAHA you truly are a fool cut. I think you may yet have a career in the UN ahead of you. Good luck.

[cut]

no Cut it doesnt. I know this is shocking for yo to hear, but the UN is completely useless accept maybe as a souding off board for weaker nations that otherwise would get no "attention" which is good and all as it levels the playing field a bit. Beyond that mate, the UN couldnt agree on which shoe to tie first if it ever came to a decision on that!!!!

why does it matter if you don't listen to them, who cares about democracy anyway?

[Parzival]

I support France!
They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans. They are also a very importent state in the European Union.
Sweden Support France

[Luxembourger]

They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans.


why?

:cantbeli:

I like France , it s a beautiful country, I like their people , I like their food , I like their culture --> but I don t like their foreign POLICY and the way how the government behave towards EU issues ( being unpunished by breaking rules while smaller countries in the EU get punished severly)!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Miles Teg]

( being unpunished by breaking rules while smaller countries in the EU get punished severly)

This is not finish, Europe Union make some action about this. And I think it is normal that we will take penalties.
Just in respect of the other or poor country of EU which made a lot of effort to conform to the rules.

[cut]

Hey Cut, good way to act like an idiot and put in a little crybaby "well if the UN had been in British controlled Basra they woulda been safe" bullcrap. Everyone knows the Brits were given the candy assed panzie assignment. Basra is 99% shiite. Granted, but tell me why are there problems in Mosul (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3446981.stm)? Kurds are Saddam lovers in disguise?



The US took the hard areas where there are fault lines of Shiite and Sunni and lots of old Saddam loyalists. same point again


I would love to see the British soldiers piss themsevles if they ever get Sammara or any are north of Baghdad
Just like we did in N.I. no doubt? :roll:
Face squaddies are better trained and have more experience in this situation.

.
But of course that wont ever happen because there is no way in hell the British govnt would ever send it troops there It was never our vendetta in the first place


But thats ok, you guys can keep Basra. It sure as hell took you long enough to take it in the first place. second biggest city, speed is not everything, it's called wisdom. In the same situation I'm sure american generals would have done the same.


I think UN forces had overun all of North Iraq, taken every major city including Baghdad by the time you Brits sauntered into Basra when the war was over and the Iraqi's had already surrendered. It was a good tactic though and it probabyl saved alot of Brit lives so I cant blame them...... I wasn't aware the UN had any such forces, and no the Brits had control of Basra before the US troops had Baghdad (which is only fair since we were there earlier)



Fact of the matter Cut (you retard) is that Koffi Annan and his little UN only are beginning to come back after a HELL of alot of prodding by ......guess who.....the United States you sumb ****. The F'ing Japanese were willign to come to Iraq as thier first combat tour since WW2 and the UN wasnt!!! What a load of panzies. The UN's decisions are based on world opinion it is not a dictatorship much as you would like. thanks for the abuse by the way, makes you look a right child. Did you see the uproar in Japan over this? and even then it was only to help clear the mess.


And yes Cut you moron, the UN does have resources for christ sake. Im glad to see that you didnt assume it was its own country or anything but to ask "what resources??" It's resources are the it's member countries, if they don't what to commit their forces to what they believe is a fictious and unjust cause (christian countries believe in just wars). The UN has no control of these "resources" if you can give me an example of this I'll back down. I think these expectations you have of the UN are beyond it's duties.



like Im a moron for even propossing that fact is pure idiocy and shows what little you know.
wtf does that mean?


The UN has many millions in potential resources if it could just get its act together.
Global dictatorship, all counrties must agree and do as the US wishes? American soldiers are fighting and have fought for this freedom and now you want to get rid of it so that it suits Bush's needs?


After all, it is a representative body for the world and thus could conceivably gather a HUGE sum of money for any project it wished but,,,,,hold on there is a catch.....since the UN cant agree on a DAMN THING EVER!!!!
The world= the UN, you think if it weren't for the UN, the likes of France and Germany would change their minds? How about through coersion?



they never are able to raise nearly as much money as they theoretically could assuming it was structured properly and thus.......ding ding ding they are USELESS!!!!
Not useless,it stoped the US and Britain bullying weaker states into fighting a war they are against. Which is not good for us but it's the Freedom you claim you want to give Iraq.



Also for your information the "UN Army" fought in Korea alongside the United States. Next combinations of UN memebers forces come togother to from what is essentially a "UN Army" under unified command and not the command of the host nations.
this is not a real army it's not fixed, if member states don't want to fight someone elses war and see the bodybags come home that should be their choice not yours.


Only the US and some other nations not willign to see thier troops misused and abused by the various 4th rate militaries that comprise the UN refuse to tlet thier valuable and skilled soldiers fall under UN command (which is an oxymoron in itself)
What?


Second, in reality, there might be about 5 reps from the UN tip toeing through Iraq at the moment like frightened sewer rats so that hardly qualifies as UN presence but I suppose when I said the UN fled Iraq, I should have mentioned them so that you didnt call me "ignorant". I like you to say that to brazilians who lost a very good politian and diplomat because they were obviously left vulnerable.


And your right Cut, there hasnt been a nuclear war between India and Pak yet, They have only been on the knife edge of it more than ounce so why should the UN bother right??
That sentence doesn't make sense,learn to write. The UN is the reason why these kind of issues have been solved. And I'm fvcking glad coz I was there at the time.


Jessus your a moron.
there you go again :roll:



I know, let the UN just sit still until the two sides have annihilated eachother and the nuclear fallout has destroyed much of the economies in that part of Asia and then, after 50 years of waiting for the fallout to settle, another 100 years for the UN to take thier vote and make their arguments about why UN forces should be sent into such a bad area where they might be attacked by a few roaches who were hearty enough to survive and might have mutated into man eating beasts, maybe then the UN can go in and fullfill its mission of "global security and peace". HAHA you truly are a fool cut. I think you may yet have a career in the UN ahead of you. Good luck.

You obviously know nothing about the UN or its pupose and calling me a fool and a moron really brings out your immaturity.

[Parzival]

They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans.


why?

:cantbeli:

Why?, Because the US has an arrogant foreign politic. They go in war with false facts and with out FN promission. George Bush is an idiot in my eyes. America needs a better President with more knowledge about the world.

[cut]

Why?, Because the US has an arrogant foreign politic. They go in war with false facts and with out FN promission. George Bush is an idiot in my eyes. America needs a better President with more knowledge about the world.

:cantbeli: And then you are suprised when they slag you off

Every country has an arrogant foreign politic unless they are working with one and other. George Bush is not and idiot, he is intelligent but in a world where most other head of states are skilled, seasoned parlementarians and can debate there way, he does look a bit naive and I don't think he is the most knowledgable president when it comes to anthropology, but hey and least he knows how to pick a good fight, irresponsible but fun, the way life should be. :D

[NcDeuce]

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks1.jpg

[obd]

The whole "UN" forces into Baghdad was a typo. Meant to type "US" but since I had so much anger welling up inside me at the very thought of the UN, it kinda took over. You can understand cant you cut? ;)

Next if you really honestly believe that the UN's decisions are based on world opinion than your smoking something lately. The UN was structured in a way to give the developed naitons with real tangible military power an equal amount of power in the UN. For example, the major powers have a hell of alot more power to make decisions and even to influence what debates come on the floor and such so no cut, the UN is not at all about "world opinion". It is neither a barometer nor is it a vehicle to mobillize world opinion......sorry mate..hate to burst your UNJ bubbel there.

Yes cut, its resources come from its members. I never said anything to the contrary. But you are wrong when you say that nations can simply agree or not agree. In reality, nations are often coerced through the other channels of diplomacy into "volunteering" thier forces for various failed UN mission when they would rather not. A perfect example would be Pakistan, which was coerced into contributing forces to some UN missions when it really didnt want to. You seem to see the UN as a great level playing field when in reality it is merely a tool for the powerful to coerce the powerless and that happens quite often. There is a hell of alot of poitics involved in nations contributing anything to an actual UN mission of any kind, be it peace keeping, peace making, or other such humanitarian ops.......

By me "Like a moron" quote which you cut off and took a little out of context, I was saying that you say "what resources" like you are surprised at my claim the UN has resources at all when they potentially have many times the resources of the Unites States at thier disposal.

Next the UN doesnt represent "freedom". Yes the US created the UN to serve a purpose in the world and promote dialogue between nations and security and such.....Even with respect to providing a "souding board" for all nations which was the UN primary goal has failed as many nations are constantly silenced by the likes of the US, China, France, England, Russia, etc etc who dominate the UN agenda.......so no again cut, it hasnt succeeded in that either

Why dont you ask the North Koreans and the Chinese whether or not they faced a "fake UN army" in North Korea. The fact of the matter is that the UN is more than capable, at least in principle, of creating a "real army" hence the UN command issues with regards to soldiers. In Somalia for example, many of the UN soldiers fought under a unified UN command. They were not a group coming together each with its own command but a group from various nations forming up into a cohesive army with a singular UN command. That would mean its a "real army" in my book anyway........

I will repeat and rephrase, other than the United States' refusal to have its soldiers under UN command in Somalia, many other nations had thier troops under UN command. Oftentimes, such as in Sierra Leone, the actual commanders are chosen for plitical reasons and not based on skill. Hence the UN's utter failure to do anything in Sierra Leone but get its ass kicked by an 18 rate group of children called the "east side boys" which the British Paras and SAS quickly nuetralized........ The UN often puts commanders from 3rd world nations with 4th rate armies over and above other nations men who come from top tier military's with the ability to wage high tech high intensity warfare. This creates huge problems b/c of the difference in training, knowledge, weapons, comms, doctrine, etc....Thats just one reason why UN missions tend to be compelte and utter cluster-F U C K S.

Next I feel sorry for the Spanish and Brazilians but the US has stayed the course and lost over 500 so your not gonna get anywhere trying to lay a guilt trip on me. The Spanish have been great allies and I love them for thier help in my nations time of need and thus am greived by thier loss. As for the Brazialian, Im no more grieved for him than I am for the 6 year old girl whom I didnt that was run over in the next town over from me a few weeks ago know or the molusc divers who died when the tide swept them in England a few days ago. Sad to be sure but I cant shed a tear for everyone. Thousands die every minute of every day on this earth. Nobody can cry for them all...............

If I know nothing about the UN and its purpose than please CUT, educate me..... That last quote of me you took was in response to your quote about "why should the UN do anything seeing as they havnt nuked eachother". When I mention real world issues that are important to today all I hear from you is excuse after excuse after excuse about why the UN cant take action ....Again CUT, I think you have a good carreer in the UN ahead of you. And please tell me, if the UN cant take action to try to confront two nations at the brink of nuclear war which coould affect the lives of all in the region for the forceable future, force them to the bargaining table, and get them to talk then tell me CUT, what purpose is the UN serving exactly??? Funny how it was US pressure that stopped them this time, not UN pressure which just reinforces my point: ITs the US that handles world affairs now, not that overly large, democratic (What a load of crap), organization that cant even wipe its own ass without arguing over which hand was to get the toilet paper and which would flush....

[Cael]

I thought it was a good thread. Besides the name calling.. ;) ahem.. obd and cut have some enjoyable discussions.

[Midtown]

Im gonna be in france this summer for a week :fork: I'm not very happy about it at all.

[Shadow]

I support France!
They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans. They are also a very importent state in the European Union.
Sweden Support France

Me, too!
You are totaly right!
Germany supports Sweden and France.
**** the World Europe rules.

[Rantanplan]

Yeah, Vive la France, Jag älskar Sverige and Sieg He... ups :oops:

[Loco]

Next I feel sorry for the Spanish and Brazilians but the US has stayed the course and lost over 500 so your not gonna get anywhere trying to lay a guilt trip on me. The Spanish have been great allies and I love...

Don´t be sorry for us, spanish, nor you don´t love us, we choose who to love and being loved for ;)
And don´t understand where do you want to go since the moment that USA is asking for UN to come back to Iraq and to NATO sending troops!

[Loco]

I support France!
They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans. They are also a very importent state in the European Union.
Sweden Support France

Me, too!
You are totaly right!
Germany supports Sweden and France.
f*** the World Europe rules.
And Italy, GB, Spain, Denmark, Netherland, Poland, Bulgaria, Rumania, Hungary, Ukraine, ...don´t support Germany and France regarding Iraq. It seems as in europe there are diversity of opinions, good thing.

[Haiw]

Well the PEOPLE of the Netherlands support the German and French stance, the problem is our current government has their heads so far up their asses that they can see the sky again... I was almost crying in front of my TV when I saw how Balkenende came over for breakfast with Bush in the US and acted like he was his little puppy dog. *insert puke smiley here*

[Royal]

OBD, once again I've got to pull your ignorant head out of your arse and point a few facts out.

The two ethnic groups you are refering to are Shi'a and Sunni. The exact breakdown is unknown, because the Ba'ath party failed to carry out proper census's, but the Basrah area is believed to be 65-70% Shi'a (but then again, so is Bagdhad).

I'd be grateful if you would explain to the comrades, friends and family of the three 'candy-assed' British SF soldiers killed over the past few months in and north east of Bagdhad how safe and easy the job that they weren't doing because the British government wouldn't send them was.

Cut has already pointed out your ignorance of the difference between the UN and the US, as well as the nice safe friendly areas like Mosul where you obviously think the boys from the 82nd Airborne and the like are shooting hoops and topping up their tans.

If you're going to quote British military history at Brits, at least try to get it right. Op Barras - the operation against the West Side Boys in Sierra Leone was conducted to rescue a group of British officers and NCO's taken hostage through their own stupidity. It had nothing to do with the ongoing UN Operation (incidentaly supported by British troops - clearly why it was such a disaster and why Sierra Leone is now being rebuilt and used as a FMB for Ops in Liberia).

Finally, If you check your history, you'll find that the US was part of the UN force in Korea, a force that was deployed becuase the Soviets walked out of the UN Security Council and thus couldn't use their veto.

[Loco]

Well the PEOPLE of the Netherlands support the German and French stance, the problem is our current government has their heads so far up their asses that they can see the sky again... I was almost crying in front of my TV when I saw how Balkenende came over for breakfast with Bush in the US and acted like he was his little puppy dog. *insert puke smiley here*
The government of your country is elected by the people that you say support Germany. I wonder if people in your country supported Germany stance when this country first recognized Croatia and gave so a big push to the crazy war that devastated former Yugoslavia. I think this is as bad or worst than Irak subject, in fact Yugoslavia is inside europe and all europe was affected in first place by the huge wave of refugees, and never listened an apologize or auto-critic in the side of Germany about that. But it´s so easy to criticize to others...
There are many opinions in europe and I respect France and Germany, but I don´t respect them when they say they are the european opinion.

[Sixgun Symphony]

and what would you have instead? nothing? a puppet organistion that doesn't say no when other governments disagree?

I would have no such world bodies like the UN. Period.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I support France!
They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans. They are also a very importent state in the European Union.
Sweden Support France

ha! A large part of the so called "French" population are immigrants from Asia and Africa. Thanks to die-versity, France is becoming less and less of a European nation every day.

[Luxembourger]

Shadow wrote:
Vacon wrote:
I support France!
They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans. They are also a very importent state in the European Union.
Sweden Support France


Me, too!
You are totaly right!
Germany supports Sweden and France.
f*** the World Europe rules.

Europe is not only the gemran government and the french government .
And I give no **** to those polls that were made before OIF , polls saying that 90% are anti war and the rest pro war.

[Kaos]

I support France!
They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans. They are also a very importent state in the European Union.
Sweden Support France

ha! A large part of the so called "French" population are immigrants from Asia and Africa. Thanks to die-versity, France is becoming less and less of a European nation every day.
It seems that you've got a great knowledge of our problems here in France. Can you tell me something of your source? i promise, I will try not to laugh!!
Funny the way that a US citizen talks about immigrants...But maybe you're a true North American Indian?

[Miles Teg]

ha! A large part of the so called "French" population are immigrants from Asia and Africa. Thanks to die-versity, France is becoming less and less of a European nation every day.

Now we know to who we are talking.

[Sixgun Symphony]

By the way what was wrong with roosevelt ? I think he was a great president of the US who did much remember NEW deal during the 30s during which the economy was badly hit due to the 1929 stock exchange crisis.

FDR's "New Deal" was socialism and created vast government bureacracies. Alger Hiss and other top advisors to president Roosevelt were commie spies, just goes to show that Senator Joe McCarthy was right all along.

Read what Churchill had to say about the meeting at Yalta. You will see that FDR was a suckup to "Uncle Joe" (Stalin).

[Sixgun Symphony]

Funny the way that a US citizen talks about immigrants...But maybe you're a true North American Indian?

Not an 'immigrant', I come from pioneer stock. We fought the wild injuns and built a civilization out of virgin wilderness. Then the immigrants came to live in our cities.

[Miles Teg]

Settling Seattle again


By Stuart Eskenazi
Seattle Times staff reporter

On a day set aside to celebrate the arrival 150 years ago of white settlers in Seattle, descendants of the city's five founding families paused to consider the costs paid by the indigenous people who had welcomed their ancestors.

November 13 marked the anniversary of the Alki landing of the schooner Exact, which carried 10 adults and 12 children — and a boatload of ambition and trepidation.

The festivities included a luncheon at a West Seattle restaurant, attended by the latest generations of the Bell, Boren, Denny, Low and Terry families. It was followed by a ceremony re-enacting the landing, replete with a replica ship and descendants aboard in pioneer-era dress.

But instead of cutting loose to congratulate themselves for how far the city has come in 150 years, those taking part in the festivities were challenged to look within. At the luncheon, historian David Buerge alluded to unfinished business that sullies the legacy of the landing of the Exact. He asked the luncheon crowd of more than 200: "Are we a community or do we just pretend to be?"

A century and a half after the arrival of the landing party, Duwamish Indians whose ancestors lived here first are still trying to secure federal Bureau of Indian Affairs recognition for their tribe. They have no reservation and no fishing rights. A different kind of recognition, however, comes by way of the name of the city, Seattle, after the chief whose spirit of cooperation with the settlers contributed to their success in molding a muddle of water and hills into a city.

The Duwamish, which ceded 54,700 acres of land, are appealing a federal denial of tribal recognition, which had been granted in January but then was revoked in September. With fewer than 600 registered Duwamish members and no land base, tribal leaders say recognition as a political entity is necessary to ensure the tribe can carry on.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/seattle_history/articles/settling.html

Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe you're not from Seattle.

[Kaos]

"We fought the wild injuns and built a civilization out of virgin wilderness. Then the immigrants came to live in our cities." A sort of "génération spontanée"???(if someone could translate...)
then you must be over 300 years old????
Respects!!!
Sorry, but I can do nothing else for you...
it seems to me that you will get some new "friends" with your last sentence.

[Kitsune]

Loco,

1)The decision to recognize croatia was HEAVILY critisized here in Germany. Only that politician have the tendency NOT to make an apology if they made a mistake (look at Bush/Blair now...they don't see any wrong), and Germanys politicians behave just the same in this regard.

2) Actually, I can't remember that the German government has EVER said it represented the whole of Europe. In fact I think you can't complain about the level of respect or modesty it displays. Do you really think ANY other government in Europe would show more of these, if they had a population of 83 million and the largest economy in Europe? Chirac? Blair? Miller? How struck-up do you think Aznar would be in that case? Or think about Berlusconi...you would have to invent a new descriptive word, since "arrogance" would not cover it anymore...
I agree, that mistakes have been made (as for example now with this French/German summits...this just antagonizes all, who fear the "Franco-German axis, that allegedly rules everything in Europe) but all in all Germany conducts itself quite well. Its just this special effect the US knows as well: whatever you do, someone complains.

3) It seems to be true, most Dutch are against the war. I have relatives there (I am a quarter Dutch ;) ) and they say so. But then, I don't know wether there is a single nation in Europe where a majority of the population supports the war. Nonetheless, those people exist (Luxembourger for example). Especially in the military.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Not immigrants, pioneers.

We did not come in to assimilate with the few wild injuns living in the bush. (who came over the Alaska-Siberian isthmus themselves during the last ice age). We came, we conquered, we then built a civilization out of what had been virgin wilderness.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Loco,

1)The decision to recognize croatia was HEAVILY critisized here in Germany. Only that politician have the tendency NOT to make an apology if they made a mistake (look at Bush/Blair now...they don't see any wrong), and Germanys politicians behave just the same in this regard.



An old saying comes to mind here. "better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission". In this case, they don't even need to ask forgiveness.

They got what they wanted and the world has moved on.

[Luxembourger]

I don't know wether there is a single nation in Europe where a majority of the population supports the war. Nonetheless, those people exist (Luxembourger for example). Especially in the military.

it s cool to know that I am in the military .....didn t know that yet ...actually I am a student at university but wellll......

Those people who have a different opinon than you do exist.

[radon]

I support France!
They are europeans and i trust more at europeans then americans. They are also a very importent state in the European Union.
Sweden Support France

ha! A large part of the so called "French" population are immigrants from Asia and Africa. Thanks to die-versity, France is becoming less and less of a European nation every day.


I think this will make alot of problems in the future. Think what the differences exist between germans and french. They are very different, but also very similiar. But the muslim immigrants are different, even if both groups have little common trough religion. Even if people were not really religious in france for example the influences are still there. Many islamic immigrants still believe in theyr orginal stuff and this doesent change at all with the immigrants kids. Some people want mixture and think the immigrants want to become frenchized. They dont want to abandon theyr own stuff. And the mixture doesent happen. Immigrants are always a society in a bigger society. Right now the things go mostly on the original french peoples rules, the muslim are a minority. Many of the immigrants dont agree at all with the current things, and muslim people are also very missionary like because of believing in koran, they only dont want to try change things to theyr liking because they are minority. But when the muslim percentage rises i can see conflict between the immigrants and the original people for example in France. And I absolutely dont think the muslim people are going to be tolerant, the surely koran isnt.

Now this is just begging of problems. You have a group of people who want islam and others who absolutely dont. Nice . Balkans and Ireland recreated. I wait interested to see how things will develop in the future.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I think this will make alot of problems in the future. Think what the differences exist between germans and french. They are very different, but also very similiar. But the muslim immigrants are different.

Germans and French are European, the muslims are asiatic invaders.

Think of all the wars fought to keep the Islamic Turks, Moors, and Arabs out of Europe. But the enemy within had opened the gates to them in the name of tolerance and die-versity. If present trends continue, Western Civilization will soon cease to exist in Europe.

I recommend that you read DEATH OF THE WEST by Pat Buchanin. Another good book is CAMP OF THE SAINT'S by Jean Raspail.

[Durandal]

Germans and French are European, the muslims are asiatic invaders.

Damn if that doesn't sound like a skin head facist talking...

Hmmm...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Germans and French are European, the muslims are asiatic invaders.

Damn if that doesn't sound like a skin head facist talking...

Hmmm...

Nope, just a bit redneck. But I am speaking the truth here and I don't give a damn about the "PC" sensitivies of the hippie-fags. When much of Europe comes under Shaaria, It will be bittersweet to say that I told you so.

[Durandal]

[quote="Durandal"][quote=Sixgun Symphony]Nope, just a bit redneck. But I am speaking the truth here and I don't give a damn about the "PC" sensitivies of the hippie-fags. When much of Europe comes under Shaaria, It will be bittersweet to say that I told you so.

Sweet, and a homophobe too...

Next you are going to start dissing jews, blacks, and Irish American immigrants...

Unfortunately, I completely disagree with you about Europe. Times are changing, for sure. Things have a tendancy to do it.

Unfortunately, Western Europe's attempt at controlling it through what I consider laws that violate civil rights rather than developing a better imigration and social welfare system (hey, its their money, if they want to spend it on government programs fine) to prevent the abuses that are currently happening.

Rather that preach what is wrong why don't you provide some less hate and rhetoric and more facts and thought out practical solutions.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I am talking about whats real.

No, I don't care about your "PC" sensitivities.

[Durandal]

I am talking about whats real.

No, I don't care about your "PC" sensitivities.

My PC sensitivities? You are lost man. As a fellow NRA member, not only have I found your banter offensive, I consider it embarassing. You are the kind of person that gives the NRA, conservatives, and Americans a bad rep.

Unfortunately, your ego and your hate prevent you from seeing this.

So tone it down...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Neo-Conservatives :roll:

They keep adopting liberal positions as their own.

[Haiw]

To steal an old quote of an old forum member here:
'Sixgun Symphony, if ignorance is bliss, you are in heaven...'

Really, you should come to Europe for once, live here for a while.... Try visiting France, Germany and for example the Netherlands for once. Maybe then you might have something educated to say. :roll:

[Sixgun Symphony]

I already know that most of the Germans, French, and especially the decadent Dutch are Left-Lib bliss-ninnies.

My conversation with Durandel probably went above your head.

[Haiw]

Thanks for yet again proving my point... I salute you, Commander in Chief of the Army of Stupidity.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Again, you have no comprehension.

Maybe you can tell me what is in your country besides hippies, hashish, and whores?

[Haiw]

My conversation with Durandel probably went above your head.
Above my head like a clown's argument... I'm amazed how Durandel finds the patience to argue with your stupidity.

[StarvingStudent47]

Funny the way that a US citizen talks about immigrants...But maybe you're a true North American Indian?

Just for the record, Sixgun does NOT speak for the majority of America. He speaks for himself, Pat Buchanan, the 700 Club, etc.

Me myself, I'm part of those evil immigrants that took over the cities from the "pioneers" in the late 19th century. Part Yid Russkie, part Papist Irishman, I'm the ultimate double-threat to WASP culture woot

[obd]

First off Royal, I alread stated that when I typed "UN" in one sentence I emant to type "US". It was a simple typo.

Second, sorry about the mixing up fo the "east" side and "west" side thing. My bad. Anyway, you still get my point regardless of whether they were east or west. Either way they were a pettty group of thugs whose name is hardly worth remmembering anyway.........

[obd]

also with regard ot having to "pull my head out my ass" for a typo and a mixing up of a small SL gang really is petty in itself. No need to comment. And yeah Royal, while the US was technically part of the UN in Korean war it did not fight under UN command and thus was in reality independent of UN and not really a part of the UN structure although some cooperation was of course the case. There is a big diff. between being under UN or part of UN on paper/in theory than the reality that is in practice!!!! US forces fought alongside UN forces, not under them in most cases!!! But thanx anyway for pointing out a few small typos and a small east/west mistake. I can breathe now tha my heads out of my ass a little bit more..... ;)

[Durandal]

My conversation with Durandel probably went above your head.
Above my head like a clown's argument... I'm amazed how Durandal finds the patience to argue with your stupidity.

Dude, I have LOTS of patience. ;)

[Royal]

Maybe if you're going to come back you should re-read my post. Or maybe you have no comeback?


I'd be grateful if you would explain to the comrades, friends and family of the three 'candy-assed' British SF soldiers killed over the past few months in and north east of Bagdhad how safe and easy the job that they weren't doing because the British government wouldn't send them was.

....

If you're going to quote British military history at Brits, at least try to get it right. Op Barras - the operation against the West Side Boys in Sierra Leone was conducted to rescue a group of British officers and NCO's taken hostage through their own stupidity. It had nothing to do with the ongoing UN Operation (incidentaly supported by British troops - clearly why it was such a disaster and why Sierra Leone is now being rebuilt and used as a FMB for Ops in Liberia).

You'll also find that the thousands of US veterans wearing the UN Korea medal may well disagree with you.

[Roger Rabbit]

What happened to Hoods banhammer because someone needs a smack with it.

I've been to the Netherlands a few years ago and it was very nice apart from it raining for 6 days out of 7. Nice food, nice people, nice landscape. Too young to see any ladies of the night though.

[Schwabo Elite]

@Durandel

Unfortunately, Western Europe's attempt at controlling it through what I consider laws that violate civil rights rather than developing a better imigration and social welfare system (hey, its their money, if they want to spend it on government programs fine) to prevent the abuses that are currently happening.

Sorry, maybe I get you wrong, but why do you think Europe violates civil rights in comparison to US laws (of which I don't know the immigrant part).

Thanks for reply.

SE

[Sergei]

After looking through several pages of this rant and wasting 30 minutes to try to follow this pissing contest I am still in the dark as to the real purpose of this thread.
Admin is probably drinking beer with moderators or went asleep.

[Durandal]

Sorry, maybe I get you wrong, but why do you think Europe violates civil rights in comparison to US laws (of which I don't know the immigrant part).

Thanks for reply.

SE

France and Germany have fairly stiff seperations of church and state that I do not a gree with. I feel anyone has the right to worship (or not). France in particular is using new laws that control the practicing of religion in an attempt to "protect" muslims, specificly the women, but the whole thing simply stinks.

There are several threads in this forum that deal with them (as well as my opinion).

I feel that the right to worship is a right just as marriage is a right. Controling it is a bad thing. A person should have the right to wear a cricifix in the classroom as much as a gays should have the right to marry.

This also includes to the right of property, freedom of speech, the right to a fair trial by your peers, and owning guns. The list goes on. I am an American and "liberty" was the cornerstone of the creation of my nation.

America cetainly has not had the best track record when it comes to liberty, but it is getting better.

I hope that helps explain my position a little better. Sixgun Symphony banters about without any real understanding of the issues in Europe or without considering solutions to the problems. If you want, I can find the link to this forum's discussions about this similar topic.

[Tengu]

France and Germany have fairly stiff seperations of church and state that I do not a gree with. I feel anyone has the right to worship (or not). France in particular is using new laws that control the practicing of religion in an attempt to "protect" muslims, specificly the women, but the whole thing simply stinks.
There is a stiff seperation in almost every european nation. (thank god :P ) We don't say things like "god bless belgium", here it would be linked extremism.
France banned every religious symbol from public schools. Wich is a good thing in my opinion.
There also is a debat in germany and belgium to do the same.


I hope that helps explain my position a little better. Sixgun Symphony banters about without any real understanding of the issues in Europe or without considering solutions to the problems. If you want, I can find the link to this forum's discussions about this similar topic.His ignorance is idd funny. He is under the impression that europe is a collection of communist states. While most EU states are being runned by right-winged parties and right parties are still on the rise.

[cut]

The whole "UN" forces into Baghdad was a typo. Meant to type "US" but since I had so much anger welling up inside me at the very thought of the UN, it kinda took over. You can understand cant you cut? ;)
what are you on?



Next if you really honestly believe that the UN's decisions are based on world opinion than your smoking something lately. The UN was structured in a way to give the developed naitons with real tangible military power an equal amount of power in the UN.
No it was developped so all countries were able to express themselves, yes the most powerful get a stronger voice but they usually have a bigger population. If it only the most powerful countries then why did it intervene when a tiny country like Kuwait? th only other explanation would be a war to secure the oil, which was saddams excuse anyway, the Kuwaitis were nicking oil from beyond it's borders.


For example, the major powers have a hell of alot more power to make decisions and even to influence what debates come on the floor and such so no cut, the UN is not at all about "world opinion". It is neither a barometer nor is it a vehicle to mobillize world opinion......sorry mate..hate to burst your UNJ bubbel there.
of course you can't listen to everyones opinion, but if China chooses to veto something it's because they feel strongly against it, and you are saying that this is wrong, that everything the US tries to pass should pass.




Yes cut, its resources come from its members. I never said anything to the contrary. But you are wrong when you say that nations can simply agree or not agree. In reality, nations are often coerced through the other channels of diplomacy into "volunteering" thier forces for various failed UN mission when they would rather not. A perfect example would be Pakistan, which was coerced into contributing forces to some UN missions when it really didnt want to. You seem to see the UN as a great level playing field when in reality it is merely a tool for the powerful to coerce the powerless and that happens quite often. There is a hell of alot of poitics involved in nations contributing anything to an actual UN mission of any kind, be it peace keeping, peace making, or other such humanitarian ops.......

I think you'll find the only thing that can allow that "coersion" to happen is the most powerful nations in the UN, e.g. if the US didn't want this to happen, it wouldn't.


By me "Like a moron" quote which you cut off and took a little out of context, I was saying that you say "what resources" like you are surprised at my claim the UN has resources at all when they potentially have many times the resources of the Unites States at thier disposal.
potentially? ok so the war in Iraq, the UN didn't agree i.e. the majority of the security council did not want to go to war for the US, despite powerful coersion by the US and Britian, although France and Russia, probably counter that. Because France stood up to us it allowed the other countries namely the temporary members of the security council to vote the way they wantes, without fear of embargo and other such power-diplomacy tactics.



Next the UN doesnt represent "freedom". Yes the US created the UN to serve a purpose in the world and promote dialogue between nations and security and such.....Even with respect to providing a "souding board" for all nations which was the UN primary goal has failed as many nations are constantly silenced by the likes of the US, China, France, England, Russia, etc etc who dominate the UN agenda.......so no again cut, it hasnt succeeded in that either
but it far closer than anything you or even a political philosopher can suggest, let alone create.

And if it were down to Bush he doesn't give a **** when it comes to other states getting their say, it's not his political style, he has other strengths but that is not one of them.




Why dont you ask the North Koreans and the Chinese whether or not they faced a "fake UN army" in North Korea. The fact of the matter is that the UN is more than capable, at least in principle, of creating a "real army" hence the UN command issues with regards to soldiers. In Somalia for example, many of the UN soldiers fought under a unified UN command. They were not a group coming together each with its own command but a group from various nations forming up into a cohesive army with a singular UN command. That would mean its a "real army" in my book anyway........
as I said the UN wars are not conducted by a UN army General or any other crap it is the individual members armies allied together, this does not make an army. Have you heard the forces in Iraq now referred to as the coalition army? No, I didn't think so.




I will repeat and rephrase, other than the United States' refusal to have its soldiers under UN command in Somalia, many other nations had thier troops under UN command.
UN command would that be a UN general? UN war planning?


Oftentimes, such as in Sierra Leone, the actual commanders are chosen for plitical reasons and not based on skill. Hence the UN's utter failure to do anything in Sierra Leone but get its ass kicked by an 18 rate group of children called the "east side boys" which the British Paras and SAS quickly nuetralized........ The UN often puts commanders from 3rd world nations with 4th rate armies over and above other nations men who come from top tier military's with the ability to wage high tech high intensity warfare. This creates huge problems b/c of the difference in training, knowledge, weapons, comms, doctrine, etc....Thats just one reason why UN missions tend to be compelte and utter cluster-F U C K S.
Royal has kindly kicked your arse on this point, I won't kick you while you are down.



Next I feel sorry for the Spanish and Brazilians but the US has stayed the course and lost over 500 so your not gonna get anywhere trying to lay a guilt trip on me. The Spanish have been great allies and I love them for thier help in my nations time of need and thus am greived by thier loss. As for the Brazialian, Im no more grieved for him than I am for the 6 year old girl whom I didnt that was run over in the next town over from me a few weeks ago know or the molusc divers who died when the tide swept them in England a few days ago. Sad to be sure but I cant shed a tear for everyone. Thousands die every minute of every day on this earth. Nobody can cry for them all...............

so if Bush was murdered in a bomb blast you'd feel the same as you would when a girl got run over in your neighbourhood? I don't believe that for a second


If I know nothing about the UN and its purpose than please CUT, educate me..... That last quote of me you took was in response to your quote about "why should the UN do anything seeing as they havnt nuked eachother". When I mention real world issues that are important to today all I hear from you is excuse after excuse after excuse about why the UN cant take action

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/

purposes of the UN are in chapter one


....Again CUT, I think you have a good carreer in the UN ahead of you.

Why thank you, but I'd rather serve my country.


And please tell me, if the UN cant take action to try to confront two nations at the brink of nuclear war which coould affect the lives of all in the region for the forceable future, force them to the bargaining table, and get them to talk then tell me CUT, what purpose is the UN serving exactly???
That was the whole point about Indo-Pak they did, but these things don't go away in a day.


Funny how it was US pressure that stopped them this time, not UN pressure which just reinforces my point:

oh yeah? you just made that up.


ITs the US that handles world affairs now, not that overly large, democratic (What a load of crap),
more democratic than the US running the world. That is sufficient reason to keep it.


organization that cant even wipe its own ass without arguing over which hand was to get the toilet paper and which would flush....
where as Bush would roll up his sleeves and get stuck in

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Just for the record France rocks I love the French and they keep me in a job which is good, they always pay their bills in time and we get a case of wine every New Year from our biggest customer :P
I started dealing with overseas customers 4 years ago and the French, and the Belgians come up trumps every time and never **** you about.

[Shadow]

I think this will make alot of problems in the future. Think what the differences exist between germans and french. They are very different, but also very similiar. But the muslim immigrants are different.

Germans and French are European, the muslims are asiatic invaders.

Think of all the wars fought to keep the Islamic Turks, Moors, and Arabs out of Europe. But the enemy within had opened the gates to them in the name of tolerance and die-versity. If present trends continue, Western Civilization will soon cease to exist in Europe.

I recommend that you read DEATH OF THE WEST by Pat Buchanin. Another good book is CAMP OF THE SAINT'S by Jean Raspail.

Wow you are reading books?!:D
Try to find an equivalent of this.
Dietrich Schwanitz - Bildung (Education) Alles was man wissen muss (everyting that you have to know)
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3442151473.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[He219]

Great! Another German telling us 'Everything we need to know' .....

:roll:

[cut]

Great! Another German telling us 'Everything we need to know' .....

:roll:
not funny

[He219]

Typisch Deutsch!

p-)

[mack pl]

Everything we need to know-French, Germany :-*$ USA. This blue is USA.

[Caesar]

Everything we need to know-French, Germany :-*$ USA. This blue is USA.

Oh come on! You know that's bulls*it.

[Vance]

Everything we need to know-French, Germany :-*$ USA. This blue is USA.
I wish we had a rape smiley, then I could show the Polish getting raped by the Germans rofl

[Caesar]

Everything we need to know-French, Germany :-*$ USA. This blue is USA.

Moreover, we don't say French but France, dumbass.

Good one Vance. rofl

[Durandal]

There is a stiff seperation in almost every european nation. (thank god :P ) We don't say things like "god bless belgium", here it would be linked extremism.
France banned every religious symbol from public schools. Wich is a good thing in my opinion.

I have no problem with the seperation of Church and State until they start telling kids and teachers that wear any religous symbol is bad thing. Ironicaly, the French just passed the ban today, including Muslim headscarves and the Jewish kippot. To me, that infringes on a person's right to worship. While I personally do not follow a faith that requires me to dress a certain way, other's do. To think that they cannot practice their faith in a State setting amazes me. You do not leave faith at the door of your home. It is always with you. The fact that a teacher, a politician, or student has to hide it for fear of insulting someone floors me. People should be proud of they are and a nation should enjoy the diversity of its different peoples' cultures, not restrict them.



His ignorance is idd funny. He is under the impression that europe is a collection of communist states. While most EU states are being runned by right-winged parties and right parties are still on the rise.

True, there are very few "liberal" states in the EU nor do I look at the more socialist nations as being communist. I have to be honest though, I would never shoose to live in France (and there are places in France I would LOVE to live) because of the socialist nature of the country and the (to me at least) the assault of religous freedoms (makes me wonder what is next).

Persoanlly, I am really interested to see how eastern Europe shapes up over the next decade. I am already plannig at least one trip there in the next 24 months...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Everything we need to know-French, Germany :-*$ USA. This blue is USA.

Moreover, we don't say French but France, dumbass.

Good one Vance. rofl

French? France? Non! c'est des Frogs!

La France, terre des grenouilles.

[DPGLAW]

well, it figures that Schmucko elite is german, a nation that is full of pussies, terrorists, and nazi's.....now there's someone that I would think is intelligent....god I love sarcasm

[Haiw]

DPGLAW and Sixgun Symphathetic are brothers?

[Caesar]

Everything we need to know-French, Germany :-*$ USA. This blue is USA.

Moreover, we don't say French but France, dumbass.

Good one Vance. rofl

French? France? Non! c'est des Frogs!

La France, terre des grenouilles.

Sais-tu d'où ça vient cettte histoire de grenouilles au moins?

[cut]

Il sait rien, il repete les mots de Pat Buchanin sans cesse, c'est tout.

[mack pl]

Ohhhhhh, France not French, i must remember. Its very interesting you asshole.

[Caesar]

Ohhhhhh, France not French, i must remember. Its very interesting you asshole.

About time you lighten up

[Macs.]

Typisch Deutsch!

p-)
Thats not true... :P

[BlackRain]

p-)

[NcDeuce]

Everything we need to know-French, Germany :-*$ USA. This blue is USA.
I wish we had a rape smiley, then I could show the Polish getting raped by the Germans rofl

http://www.genmay.com/images/smilies/lilms.gif

http://www.fanclub.ro/attachment.php?s=cc1cbcf46c85b6181c1e510d0dd7dadb&attachmentid=4881

http://www.fanclub.ro/attachment.php?s=cc1cbcf46c85b6181c1e510d0dd7dadb&attachmentid=4884

:(

[fantassin]

Durandal wrote:


I would never shoose to live in France


Now, that's a relief.

[FrogMan]

Durandal wrote:


I would never shoose to live in France


Very ironic, coming from someone whose name can't be more french.

(fyi, durandal was the name of Roland's sword, one of Charlemagne's knight, who died during the battle of Roncevaux)

[Durandal]

(fyi, durandal was the name of Roland's sword, one of Charlemagne's knight, who died during the battle of Roncevaux)

No ****!? Really? I thought it was the name of Stalin's monkey?

[MARINO]

Durandal wrote:


I would never shoose to live in France


Very ironic, coming from someone whose name can't be more french.

(fyi, durandal was the name of Roland's sword, one of Charlemagne's knight, who died during the battle of Roncevaux)

I've been living in France during 3 years, some peoples are really stpid, others are really nice, as everywhere.

[Durandal]

I've been living in France during 3 years, some peoples are really stpid, others are really nice, as everywhere.

You know though, I would NEVER live in California either and that is region in my own country. It is not about the people. Its the government and laws. A point, missed it seems by Mister Frog and fantassin...who seem somehow insulted...

[Durandal]

Durandal wrote:


I would never Choose to live in France


Now, that's a relief.

You know though, I would NEVER live in California either and that is a region in my own country. It is not about the people. Its the government and laws. A point missed by you and Mr. Frog.

I mean if you are not concerned about your own liberty, why should I be?

Think about it...

Why the hell would anyone move to a country that prevents a person practicing their faith? It isn't all about faith either. It is about a governments right to oppress its people. France and America aren;t that much different. We have France banning religion in public forums and we America deciding to prevent homo******s from marrying. In France it is protecting a non-secular "French" society. In America it is protecting the foundation of family values and the core concept of marriage...

Both are full of $hit and both a are a blight on the concept of Liberty that BOTH nations at one point shared.

And before you get all high and mighty and say crap like "Well, we do not want you". Regions of France live off of tourism. I have travelled to your country many times. To sightsee...to visit friends...to visit the grave of a relative. It isn;t just that I would never want to live in your country, I will not EVER visit again till the laws change. I am not the only one that thinks that way.

[fantassin]

Durandal wrote:


I will not EVER visit again till the laws change


Now, that's what I call a really GOOD day.