Reluctant Germany Opens Door for NATO Role in Iraq

[scoone]

Sat February 7, 2004 02:28 PM ET
By John Chalmers
MUNICH, Germany (*******) - Iraq war critics Germany and France on Saturday poured cold water on a U.S. push for NATO to take command of a stabilisation force in Iraq, but Berlin vowed not to stand in the way if allies were determined to act.

NATO officials said they were delighted that Germany appeared to be backing away from confrontation on an issue which could rekindle last year's alliance crisis over the U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam Hussein.

Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said Germany would "not stand in the way of a consensus, even if we don't send German troops to Iraq," but told a security conference attended by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld Berlin had been proved right.

"Germany feels events have proven the position it took at the time to be right," he said, apparently referring to the U.S. failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. "We were not and are still not convinced of the reasons for war."

There was, however, none of the acrimony between Rumsfeld and Fischer that had electrified the same conference in Munich last year, just weeks before the war.

Rumsfeld launched a spirited justification for the toppling of Saddam on Saturday, arguing that a nation of 25 million people living "in fear of a dictator" had been liberated.

"The broad coalition -- and families and friends of those who gave their lives -- have been reinforced in their conviction to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein as they have found dozens of mass graves filled with tens of thousands of innocent, men, women and children that were butchered by the regime," he said.

He made no mention of the suspected weapons that were cited as a justification for military action, but said that even as statues of Saddam were being felled in Baghdad "the Iraqi regime continued to hide and destroy evidence."

FRANCE COOL

Rumsfeld insisted it was Saddam who had chosen war through his "deception and defiance" instead of taking the kind of steps now being taken by Libya to give up weapons of mass destruction.

He was echoed by British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon, who said that since the war there had been more progress on counter- proliferation than for a decade in North Korea, Iran and Libya.
The United States and several other allies are keen for the 19-nation NATO alliance to take command of a Polish-led force of some 9,000 troops in south-central Iraq after sovereignty is returned to the people of Iraq on July 1.
France, one of the war's fiercest critics, has made it clear that it would seek a new resolution or at least formal backing from the U.N. Security Council to launch such an operation.

French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie, sounding unenthusiastic, said a whole host of questions would need to be answered before an Iraq mission could be considered.

"We don't know if it would involve a presence in all of Iraq or part of Iraq, what its mission would be, what its command would be -- these are questions which have not been broached at all and will have to be discussed before we take a position," she told a news conference in Munich.

Fischer made clear Berlin had misgivings over a NATO role.

"The risk of failure -- and the possibly very serious and potentially fatal consequences for the alliance -- must be taken into consideration," he said. "Honesty demands of me that I do not conceal my deep skepticism."

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said the alliance "should not abdicate from its responsibilities" if a legitimate Iraqi government sought its assistance and there was support from the United Nations.

But Fischer said NATO -- many of whose nations say their armed forces are stretched by missions across the globe -- was right to make its peacekeeping operation in Afghanistan the priority and should not be leaping into another difficult task.

http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5UOFMM51G0RZCCRBAEKSFFA?type=topNews&storyID=4307226

[Yard Ape]

Where do other NATO countries stand on this?

[AOCBravo2004]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought France was not in the NATO military chain of command? Why would they have a say if they are out of it??? Yes I know they do have a 'role' in the diplomatic side of the NATO house.

[wholagun]

So does that mean that NATO will take over the international coalition zone or does it mean that NATO troops will be under Polish or most proabably Spainish command (since Spain is taking command in 6 months).

[Uncle Sam]

NATO... rofl

[Sixgun Symphony]

Damn!

I wish president Bush would have kept NATO out of this. We don't need them meddling into our affairs.

[Yard Ape]

We don't need them meddling into our affairs.When did global security become one nation's affairs?

[usa320]

I dont think the actions (or inactions for that matter) of france and germany earlier on should keep us from getting help from NATO. More troops the better. I think we should thank germany for finally stepping up to the plate.

[Sixgun Symphony]

We don't need them meddling into our affairs.When did global security become one nation's affairs?

Global security?

You mean US national security. Europe can tend to its own affairs.

[Yard Ape]

Global security?

You mean US national security. Europe can tend to its own affairs.
Even the US is not strong enough to do that alone.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Global security?

You mean US national security. Europe can tend to its own affairs.
Even the US is not strong enough to do that alone.

Really now, just what are US security interests?

Why do we defend south korean factories that have taken American jobs? Why do we still have troops in Germany when WWII and the Cold War are long over?

If we pull out of those regions, then we have more troops to deploy where they are really needed.

[wholagun]

What? Im confused. First you complain about having no friends to help you out, now that NAtO is comming to help you don't want it.

:cantbeli:

[Sixgun Symphony]

Personally, I think Charles Lindbergh and America First! was right all along.

France, Germany, and the rest of Europe keeps voting for Socialists and Communists. So why bother saving them from the Stalin? They wanted Stalin, not us "greedy imperialist capitalist exploiters" to come in and save them. We really should have just fought our war with Japan and let Stalin take Europe in WWII.

[Sixgun Symphony]

What? Im confused. First you complain about having no friends to help you out, now that NAtO is comming to help you don't want it.

:cantbeli:

France, Germany, and much of Europe are not our friends. I am starting to see them more as enemies.

Case in point is Joschka Fischer, he used to hobnob with the Baader-Meinhoff Red Brigade terrorists back in the early 1970's. Now he is the foriegn minister of Germany. It tells us alot about this German government.

[Yard Ape]

Global security?

You mean US national security. Europe can tend to its own affairs.
Even the US is not strong enough to do that alone.

Really now, just what are US security interests?

Why do we defend south korean factories that have taken American jobs? Why do we still have troops in Germany when WWII and the Cold War are long over?

If we pull out of those regions, then we have more troops to deploy where they are really needed.Yes, there would be more troops available to deploy "where they are really needed." But would there be enough troops to deploy everywhere they are really needed if the US were to do it alone? This would require far more than just being able to replace allied troops in Iraq & Afghanistan (including ISAF).

Do you see US troops in S.Korea as defending local factories? Do you not see them deployed against a rouge state with developing nuclear capabilities & questionable ethics when it comes to arms marketing?

[Sixgun Symphony]

If we attacked North Korea, I can already see our "allies" in Europe denouncing US for that.

BTW, pulling out of Europe would free up a lot of troops for the mid-east.

[Yard Ape]

Many European based troops have deployed to Iraq and thier proximity to the Middle East makes European bases decent staging areas for logistical support.

Your veiws on NATO seem pretty clear. What do feel about ABCA?

[Kitsune]

SSymphony, this constant whining about Fischers alleged terroist backround is senseless. Its like calling an US President, who once smoked marihuana as a student, a long term drug addict.

Besides: In contrast to what you, Budanski an others say, we aren't Marxists or Socialists in Europe. Funny, those eatern Communists called us always "Capitalists". We have more generous social systems, true. Too generous systems, also true. But we have to work like Americans, have private income and possessions like Americans and can be rich or poor like Americans (ah well, perhaps not that rich or that poor, but differences are big nonetheless.)

If you really dislike Communism so much, then I have to say to you this:
IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT !!!!
The US own foreign policy is responsible for it. Germany once tried to solve the problem of Communism once and for all (and your Charles Lindbergh felt much sympathy for this Germany back then). And nearly made it. But the USA supported those Communists and finally allied with them. The survival and then expansion of Communism over the World is the direct consequence of it. Had the Germans destroyed Stalines regime in 1941/42 there would have been no Communism in China (Chiang Kai-Chek would probably have made it there), no Communism in North Korea (and probably no need for a war there, not in the 50ties and not now), no Communism in Vietnam (and no need for a war there, too). Gosh.
But no, you had to interfere.

Perhaps you stay at home this time, before you mess things up again. ;)

[Operation Ivy]

SSymphony, this constant whining about Fischers alleged terroist backround is senseless. Its like calling an US President, who once smoked marihuana as a student, a long term drug addict.

Besides: In contrast to what you, Budanski an others say, we aren't Marxists or Socialists in Europe. Funny, those eatern Communists called us always "Capitalists". We have more generous social systems, true. Too generous systems, also true. But we have to work like Americans, have private income and possessions like Americans and can be rich or poor like Americans (ah well, perhaps not that rich or that poor, but differences are big nonetheless.)

If you really dislike Communism so much, then I have to say to you this:
IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT !!!!
The US own foreign policy is responsible for it. Germany once tried to solve the problem of Communism once and for all (and you Charles Lindbergh felt much sympathy for this Germany back then). And nearly made it. But the USA supported with those Communists, finally allied with them. The survival and then expansion of Communism over the World is the direct consequence of it. Had the Germans destroyed Stalines regime in 1941/42 there would have been no Communism in China (Chiang Kai-Chek would probably have made it there), no Communism in North Korea (and probably no need for a war there, not in the 50ties and not now), no Communism in Vietnam (and no need for a war there, too). Gosh.
But no, you had to interfere.

Perhaps you stay at home this time, before you mess things up again. ;)

lol thats actally a good point :D but u cant blame us for getting into WWII blame the Japs, world might be a lot more interesting is the Japs didnt bomb us

[Tengu]

djees Sixgun Symphony we hate communism as much as you do. So plz don't insult us. And europe does not have 1 voice. But every european nation is still us his ally and the only acceptable scenario for the future is further cooperation.

[scoone]

Germany and US return to old divisions over Iraq
8 February 2004
Foreign ministers from Germany and the US have again taken opposing views on the war to topple Saddam.

At a security conference in Munich, Donald Rumsfeld argued America had liberated the country.

Joschka Fischer said Germany felt vindicated in its anti-war stance. However, he backed down over the issue of Nato getting involved.

"I think that the decision of a direct participation of Nato in Iraq must be carefully considered," he said. "The German government won't stand in the way of a consensus, even if we don't send German troops to Iraq."

Fischer then called for the United Nations to have a bigger role in Iraq's reconstruction.

Outside, anti-war protesters held a demonstration, watched closely by German riot police. There were scuffles as a smaller group of activists tried to get near the central hotel where the annual Nato conference is taking place.



http://www.euronews.com/

[Shadow]

Personally, I think Charles Lindbergh and America First! was right all along.

France, Germany, and the rest of Europe keeps voting for Socialists and Communists. So why bother saving them from the Stalin? They wanted Stalin, not us "greedy imperialist capitalist exploiters" to come in and save them. We really should have just fought our war with Japan and let Stalin take Europe in WWII.

LOL you are a complete Idiot, i thought i have met a lot of stupid people.
But you are giving "Stupid" a new meaning.
The only thing you do is destroying Americas Image which is already damaged.

[Shadow]

SSymphony, this constant whining about Fischers alleged terroist backround is senseless. Its like calling an US President, who once smoked marihuana as a student, a long term drug addict.

Besides: In contrast to what you, Budanski an others say, we aren't Marxists or Socialists in Europe. Funny, those eatern Communists called us always "Capitalists". We have more generous social systems, true. Too generous systems, also true. But we have to work like Americans, have private income and possessions like Americans and can be rich or poor like Americans (ah well, perhaps not that rich or that poor, but differences are big nonetheless.)

If you really dislike Communism so much, then I have to say to you this:
IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT !!!!
The US own foreign policy is responsible for it. Germany once tried to solve the problem of Communism once and for all (and you Charles Lindbergh felt much sympathy for this Germany back then). And nearly made it. But the USA supported with those Communists, finally allied with them. The survival and then expansion of Communism over the World is the direct consequence of it. Had the Germans destroyed Stalines regime in 1941/42 there would have been no Communism in China (Chiang Kai-Chek would probably have made it there), no Communism in North Korea (and probably no need for a war there, not in the 50ties and not now), no Communism in Vietnam (and no need for a war there, too). Gosh.
But no, you had to interfere.

Perhaps you stay at home this time, before you mess things up again. ;)

lol thats actally a good point :D but u cant blame us for getting into WWII blame the Japs, world might be a lot more interesting is the Japs didnt bomb us

I have watched a documentation recently.They (the reporters) said that Japan send a little non-armed submarine to pearl habor and the US destroyed it so the US made the first shot. The sub marine was found 1 year ago. It was a suicide command because it had hardly enough fuel to return to its harbor.

[budanski]

I have watched a documentation recently.They (the reporters) said that Japan send a little non-armed submarine to pearl habor and the US destroyed it so the US made the first shot. The sub marine was found 1 year ago. It was a suicide command because it had hardly enough fuel to return to its harbor.

With that logic, lets say we moved the 4th ID out of Iraq and into neighboring Iran and wait for the Iranians to fire the first shot, for us being in their territory, and use that as an excuse for provacation. :roll:

[Tengu]

With that logic, lets say we moved the 4th ID out of Iraq and into neighboring Iran and wait for the Iranians to fire the first shot, for us being in their territory, and use that as an excuse for provacation. :roll:yeah, I couldn't believe the BS that Shadow wrote either.

[martinexsquaddie]

I think Iraq could have waited if we had'nt gone there we could have 20,000 uk forces in afganistqn making osma's life that more difficult.
oh well at least you can get pirate dvds in basra :)