What ever happened to the German G-11 caseless ammo rifle?

[Sixgun Symphony]

How long until someone issues a rifle that uses caseless ammunition?

[ShadowNeo]

I remember reading up that it was decided by the government, for some reason, that it wasn't to be issued to general troops, so as far as I know the production of the weapons was cancelled, asides from some being issued to Special Forces units.

The information was in the Janes' Guide to Guns book but you could probably find it on the net easily enough.

[Ian H]

Apparently it had been approved for issue to the Bundeswehr, but with reunification and all it was not adopted, largely for cost issues. Apart of course from these 'reports' of various special forces using it in small numbers. Personally I think it makes very good sense, you can have something like 135 rounds on the gun itself (3x45rd), its pretty light, and is the ultimate deniable weapon as long as one isn't captured.

Have a look on www.hkpro.com/contents.htm, (scroll down a bit), its got a fairly substantial section on the G11 and some interesting variants of it that didn't get as far.

[Haiw]

Apparently it had been approved for issue to the Bundeswehr, but with reunification and all it was not adopted, largely for cost issues. Apart of course from these 'reports' of various special forces using it in small numbers. Personally I think it makes very good sense, you can have something like 135 rounds on the gun itself (3x45rd), its pretty light, and is the ultimate deniable weapon as long as one isn't captured.
Well you can still take the bullets from the bodies you know...and that would propably make it just as obvious as leaving a flag. :P

[Durandal]

No Soviet threat, no reason to justify the cost...

Rumours abound that German SF has access to a limited quantity, but this is mainly a rumor. *shrug*

[GazB]

No Soviet threat, no reason to justify the cost...


Actually after you meet the initial costs of restructuring you ammo industry and make the weapons and the ammo in sufficient quantity and of course all the training and reequip all the repair shops etc which admittedly are quite steep, then caseless ammo is cheaper than standard ammo. The reduction in brass also reduces weight significantly too.

[oldsoak]

Can someone explain to me how misfires would be catered for using caseless ammo - I cant see how you would extract the dud round, but they must be able to do it.

[Ian H]

This explanation may be crap, so I refer you to the link above.

Basically, the G11 feeds from the top with bullets pointing downwards when a magazine is loaded. To chamber a round you rotate a handle on the lower left hand side clockwise (I think) through 90 degs. This brings the chamber into line with the end of the magazine, and chambers a round. You then release the handle, and the chamber rotates back to line up with the barrel. When fired the bullet leaves the gun out of the barrel, and the chamber rotates and is refilled as above. If there is jam, you rotate the handle anticlockwise (I think) and an ejection port is opened on I believe the bottom of the rifle, and the cartridge is ejected. You then chamber as before. This is from memory so I may have the details wrong, but that is the general principle.

Now everybody say 'thank you Ian, we appreciate you sacrificing your lecture preparation for us.' :D

[Kitsune]

Haiw wrote:
Well you can still take the bullets from the bodies you know...and that would propably make it just as obvious as leaving a flag.


Exactly. A 4.72mm rifle bullet would be the ultimative calling card, since it is unique.

Durandal wrote:
Rumours abound that German SF has access to a limited quantity, but this is mainly a rumor. *shrug*

That is indeed just a rumor, I think. All I know of, are one or two "demonstration weapons", that are left over. So the only possiblity would be, that KSK are using G11 and are trying really hard to keep it a secret...but I really don't think that this is probable.

All in all it is a shame that they canned it. I hope they make up their minds about it some day. Although G11 ammo is in no way compatible to "typical" 5.56mm weapons, it was a great rifle nonetheless. A real leap ahead. A really intersting feature was the three shot burst mode. In contrast to usual rifles, the caseless ammo made it possible to have a very high rate of fire for this one. The three shots leave the weapon in less than a tenth of a second, before the rifle "feels" the recoil, making the burst mode even more accurate than single shot.

[SamHamam]

The big issue that they never really solved, even with the G11, is heat dissipation. Cartridge cases carry a lot of heat away from the weapon.

[Tommy Gunn]

The big issue that they never really solved, even with the G11, is heat dissipation. Cartridge cases carry a lot of heat away from the weapon.

huh! Very interesting...

[Herrmannek]

The big issue that they never really solved, even with the G11, is heat dissipation. Cartridge cases carry a lot of heat away from the weapon.

huh! Very interesting...

This was solved, maybe not in G-11. I read somewhere that charge is covered with layer of disintegrating material with "vapors" after shot, this material isn't propelant itself...But I don't know details, I'm curious if someone heard about that too and can add some new info...

[Kellhound]

Last i heard, almost all problems with ammo were solved.
A new propellant was developed by Dynamit Nobel and was based in denatured hexogen explosive. It's cook-off temperature was much higher than normal nitrocellulose and it's shape was rectangular, not cilindrical.

[Kitsune]

quote="Herrmannek"]The big issue that they never really solved, even with the G11, is heat dissipation. Cartridge cases carry a lot of heat away from the weapon.

huh! Very interesting...

This was solved, maybe not in G-11. I read somewhere that charge is covered with layer of disintegrating material with "vapors" after shot, this material isn't propelant itself...But I don't know details, I'm curious if someone heard about that too and can add some new info...[/quote]

Early version of the G11 had indeed this problem. But the problem was solved. The G11 was a perfectly fuctioning weapon and judged to be extremely reliable.

[Ratamacue]

The big issue that they never really solved, even with the G11, is heat dissipation. Cartridge cases carry a lot of heat away from the weapon.

huh! Very interesting...

This was solved, maybe not in G-11. I read somewhere that charge is covered with layer of disintegrating material with "vapors" after shot, this material isn't propelant itself...But I don't know details, I'm curious if someone heard about that too and can add some new info...

Early version of the G11 had indeed this problem. But the problem was solved. The G11 was a perfectly fuctioning weapon and judged to be extremely reliable.

Such is what I heard as well. I'm guessing that it also helped alot that there was no ejection port to get clogged or anything. It always seemed to me, though, that the magazine was a bit of an impractical design.

[2RHPZ]

How long until someone issues a rifle that uses caseless ammunition?

GD Receives $3M for LMGCA Phase 1 Design

General Dynamics; June 30, 2004

CHARLOTTE, N.C. --- General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products, a business unit of General Dynamics, has been awarded a $3 million contract from the U.S. Army Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC) Joint Service Small Arms Program (JSSAP), Picatinny Arsenal (Dover, N.J.), for Phase I design of the Lightweight Machine Gun and Ammunition (LMGA). This competitive design phase extends for nine months and will result in the selection of a single system contractor for Phase 2 fabrication and testing, and Phase 3 final testing. Total value for all phases is estimated at $31.9 million.

The LMGA program aims to reduce weapon weight by 35 percent and ammunition weight carried by the infantryman by over 40 percent, while taking up less volume. The program also aims to improve ergonomics, reduce training and maintenance time, and ensure compatibility with the Future Force Warrior (FFW) Soldier System.

Lead system integration, design development, and project management will occur at General Dynamics’ Burlington Technology Center in Vermont. Major teammates include Knight Armament Company (Titusville, Fla.) for weapon co-development and manufacture, and General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (Marion, Ill.) for ammunition design and manufacture. General Dynamics will also work with ARDEC in the areas of propellant and caseless ammunition technology.

General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products provides a broad range of system solutions for military and commercial applications. The company designs, develops and produces high-performance armament systems; a full range of advanced composite-based products; biological and chemical detection systems; and mobile shelter systems.

General Dynamics, headquartered in Falls Church, Virginia, employs approximately 68,400 people worldwide and anticipates 2004 revenue of $19 billion. The company is a market leader in mission-critical information systems and technologies; land and expeditionary combat systems, armaments and munitions; shipbuilding and marine systems; and business aviation.

[Herrmannek]

Its nice to see someon is working on that woot

[perdurabo]

hmm RMK30 for Tiger is caseles ... i think :roll:

[wyrm_142]

It's not dead yet:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session6/spiegel.ppt

You'll need powerpoint viewer to look at the above file:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=7C404E8E-5513-46C4-AA4F-058A84A37DF1&displaylang=EN

[2RHPZ]

THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11

It had it all -- accuracy, ease of use, and a revolutionary "caseless ammunition" system that might have changed the way rifles are made -- but the Heckler & Koch G11 rifle was never put into mass production. What happened to this unique rifle?

http://www.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_G11-1.jpg

Full article (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_G11,,00.html?ESRC=soldiertech.nl)

[BadKarma26]

HEY! I've got an idea? What if we strapped some sort of bag to the side of this G-36? BAM! Problem solved. Have the German chancellery send me the check in the mail.

[DPGLAW]

this may be a stupid question, but what is the purpose of having caseless ammo.? the only benefit I could see would be a weight savings, but it seems to me that the difference in weight it would make would be negligible so I can't see the benefit. Can someone please explain to me why it is beneficial...thanks

[BadKarma26]

I don't agree with this senseless project because I think its a waste of money. But here are some of the advantages they would tell you existed of having caseless ammo:

-weight reduction
-being able to carry more ammo
-no casing to tell what country the round is from, etc.

[Freibier]

this may be a stupid question, but what is the purpose of having caseless ammo.? the only benefit I could see would be a weight savings, but it seems to me that the difference in weight it would make would be negligible so I can't see the benefit. Can someone please explain to me why it is beneficial...thanks
The unique feature of the G11 was that you could fire a 3 round burst in such short time (~@2000rpm) that the last bullet left the barrel before the recoil hits your shoulder. This means that the 3 rounds would hit very close unlike other automatic weapons giving the G11 a superior hit probability. Such a high cyclic rate couldn't be achieved with conventional ammo and a single barrel and so they used caseless ammo (eleminating the extraction process completely).
Caseless ammo also makes a fully ambidextrous bullpub design possible

[Kitsune]

Some reasons for caseless ammo:


-You can achieve much higher fire rates, because ejecting the case needs time. As a result the three shot burst of the G11 left the weapon in less than a tneth of a second, therefore even the third bullet has left the weapon before the weapon moves because of recoil. Result: great accuracy.

-Caseless ammo once and for all solves the "leftie-problem" most bullpups have.

- The shooting cycle is simplified, as there is no casing to eject. Many weapon failires have to do with an unsucessful attempt of it to dispose of a casing. So caseless rifles could be more reliable.

-Through an ejection port dirt can enter the weapon. So caseless weapons have the potential to be even more reliable.

-The caseless rounds of the G11 werent cylindrical, but baked in a cube shaped form of propellant. That way they fit better into the magazine, and cannot shift. That is the third reason for enhanced reliability. (Rounds that are to be ejected normally have to be "round" or better cylindrical shaped).
-With caseless ammo, more bullets can fit into an magazine, no casings take up space.

-The G11 used a system of "swinging" innards (barrel chamber, the whole interior mechanism) to dampen recoil. That may be normal for artillery, but is unusual in a rifle. It enhances accuracy considerably. This also is difficult to realize with cased ammo.

-If you want to "silence" a weapon, having no ejection port (through which sound may escape) is quite a boon. Whiles still needing silencer, a caseless gun would be more silent than a gun using cased ammo can ever be.



Frankly, its a mystery to me, why nobody seems to consider the developemant of a caseless rifle. It should really be wort a try.