Death of the West - Pat Buchanin

[Sixgun Symphony]

I read this book and it opened my eyes as to why the egalitarian Left is pro-muslim in this clash of civilizations.

The egalitarian liberals are consumed with a self-inflicted "white guilt" complex over the success of Western Civilization.

Thus we have the liberals defending Islamic immigration when they know it is a pipeline for Islamic terrorism. They also know that the fecund muslims are displacing the Europeans in Western Europe.

These leftists are against the US fighting Islamic terrorists and oriental despots because they see it as colonialism. They think Saddam Hussien is a good man because he is brown and non-christian. Never mind the mass graves and torture chambers.

It was a left-liberal president Clinton that helped the muslims fight the Serbs and the Croats in the Balkans. This action was no different than say helping the Turks at the battle for Vienna in 1683.

It seems like the hippies won the culture war thirty years ago and that the Western world in a tailspin like ancient Rome in its decline and fall period.

[hank]

Pat Buchanan never lets a little thing like reality get in the way of his indoctrination plans. Be careful reading Buchanan and thinking that you now understand a concept that you did not understand before. That can be very dangerous.

A lot of the so-called 'egalitarian left' would disagree with the allegation that they are pro-muslim. Just b/c Pat labels them pro-muslim does not make it so. Pat has a habit of villifying anybody who disagrees with what he thinks is "right" even when he has no basis for his belief.

hank

[Sixgun Symphony]

Have you read the book?

[hank]

Not the one you listed, but I have read and listened to plenty of Pat Buchanan. He ran for president when I was in college and a lot of young republicans, like myself, seriously considered him. He was a hot political commidity then, unlike now. My only point is don't take him at face value. He does not always present an accurate view of the issues about which he writes. As an example, I am a card carrying republican and conservative on most issues but the way Pat describes immigration, abortion, crime prevention (death penalty), and other issues does not square with me and a lot of other conservatives. I ain't saying don't read him, I'm just saying don't read only him. He would probably call me an egalitarian leftist b/c of my views on immigration and I would say to him that I am a libertarian on that issue. It has nothing to do with my position on islam/muslims yet Pat always inlcudes those labels in an attempt to polarize the opposition. Standard Buchanan tactic. That's why he writes books and can't get elected.

hank

[Shake n Bake]

The egalitarian liberals are consumed with a self-inflicted "white guilt" complex


ever been to the democratic underground??


"assholes, it's in our upbringing mostly. We can't help it. I think i speak for all Whitekind - we are all assholes.

It's only gotten worse since the middle-class started to disappear. That, and when an African-American cabal killed Dale Earnhardt- that was the last straw for me. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=113&topic_id=6040#6041


now that's some white man guilt complex

[duck]

Would Buchanan be considered an anti-semite by the National Review/Weekly Standard/Jerusalem Post posse? I understand the rift between neoconservatives and paleo-conservatives like Buchanan is quite big on the Israel/Palestine issue?

[Sixgun Symphony]

You seem to be a "Neo-Conservative". Pat Buchanin is a "Paleo-Conservative".

If you studing political science, then you should know the difference.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Would Buchanan be considered an anti-semite by the National Review/Weekly Standard/Jerusalem Post posse? I understand the rift between neoconservatives and paleo-conservatives like Buchanan is quite big on the Israel/Palestine issue?


He is right to say that the US support for Israel brought on this 'war on terror'. IMO, it was the founding of Israel that brought on this clash of civilizations (Islam -vs- Christendom).

Think about it, the first Arab attack on the US was the assassination of Robert Kennedy by Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian immigrant. Robert Kennedy supported Israel in the 1967 war and that enraged Sirhan Sirhan.

This is where I diverge from Pat Buchanin, I think it is well and good for US to support Israel. I think there will be peace in the region when Israel finally moves the Palestinian Arab population out of the West Bank and into Jordan. The reason why I think this is because the Jordanian river makes for a natural border. A militarized river is a much better barrier than any man made wall to insurgents.

Remember that much of Jordan was "Palestine" too and was mandated for the Arab population.

[hank]

I do not study political scientist, on purpose, and I defy any of those made-up stereotypes. I hate political labels but if I would fit in a peg it would be federalist, old term hardly used today, with a strong emphasis on stong, but limited, federal government. I am a stickler for the constitution - the fed govt can do everything the con allows it to and nothing more, in my opinion.

I read some of your posts in the other thread about immigration. Interesting.

Paleo-conservative - that is new to me - is it paleo like paleontoglogist?

hank

[Sixgun Symphony]

Paleo-conservative - that is new to me - is it paleo like paleontoglogist?

hank

Neo = new

Paleo = old

The Paleoconservatives: New Voices of the Old Right
by Joseph Scotchie (Editor) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560004274/ref=pd_sxp_f/002-2366784-0828046?v=glance&s=books)

[German_American]

Sixgun, have you read Mike Savage's new book? It's a good one I think you would enjoy it.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Sixgun, have you read Mike Savage's new book? It's a good one I think you would enjoy it.

It is on my reading list. :)

[Saranof]

There is no "clash of civilazitions"

[Ian H]

There may be in the future, which was what Huntingdon was talking about iirc.

Could be a 'clash of civilizations though'. :D

Absolutely no offence intended

[Schwabo Elite]

Why do educated people of our western culture still seperate themselves into Christs and Muslims, or Jews (correct term for religion? plz correct if not) and Muslims?
Bad enough Kant and others like him didn't reach most of the near and mid east, but we don't need to enforce the hate, some religious leaders cause in their uneducated brothers/sisters, by telling them we accept their will for a "fight". The general idea in continental Europe (though I don't know of the ex WP countries) is that it does not matter if you are black/white, Christ/Muslim or Belgian/Syrian. The only point that matters is, what you achieve and if you can achieve it without limiting others freedom and liberty to much.

SE

[martinexsquaddie]

WELL SAID Schrabo the people push this wouldbe religious war don't appear to have got over losing the crusades.

As for Europe refighting religous wars most of us got over that by the 1600s (ok theres one bit of europe that has'nt caught up with the rest its probably the guiness :( )
were democratic Liberal and happy like that so are the majority of immigrants theres always a few who are not but they don't represent the majority of muslims. much like those pro life loons who go around shooting doctors represent christians

[Ian H]

Absolutely, go Westphalian system!

[Durandal]

Sixgun, have you read Mike Savage's new book? It's a good one I think you would enjoy it.

*snort*

You guys need to read some good commentary, not talk radio hosts that suffer from ADD and Right Wing Party Line Preachers.

Ralph Peters. If you have not read any of his stuff, I suggest you start.

[Sixgun Symphony]

These liberals are going to in for a rude shock when a muslim voting majority puts EU under Shaaria law.

[StarvingStudent47]

Why do educated people of our western culture still seperate themselves into Christs and Muslims, or Jews (correct term for religion? plz correct if not) and Muslims?
Bad enough Kant and others like him didn't reach most of the near and mid east, but we don't need to enforce the hate, some religious leaders cause in their uneducated brothers/sisters, by telling them we accept their will for a "fight". The general idea in continental Europe (though I don't know of the ex WP countries) is that it does not matter if you are black/white, Christ/Muslim or Belgian/Syrian. The only point that matters is, what you achieve and if you can achieve it without limiting others freedom and liberty to much.

Thinking that Pat Buchanan speaks for all Americans is like thinking that Martin Hohmann speaks for all Germans.

The only distinction I make is terrorist/anti-terrorist. Osama is a terrorist and should be shot. Timothy McVeigh is a terrorist and should be shot. Skin color means nothing. The name of the God whom the terrorist worships as he murders children means nothing.

[German_American]

Sixshooter how long have you been in the NRA. It's only my favorite organization just curious. O yeah, watch out you like showing American pride, liberals on this forum hate that and they hate even more that your name is sixshooter and you like cowboys.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Life member since 1985.

Yup, I noticed alot of hippies here. Strange that they come to a forum on military subjects.

[German_American]

My thoughts exactly

[German_American]

I have only been a member for a year, but my father has been for about 20 years and my grandfather was for a long time before that.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Life member?

[German_American]

I'll have to ask my father he passed away about 8 years ago but he might be becasue I have his card upstairs, I don't know if it gives a date on it I havnt seen it in a few years.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I'll have to ask my father he passed away about 8 years ago but he might be becasue I have his card upstairs, I don't know if it gives a date on it I havnt seen it in a few years.

Are you a life member?


It is cheaper than paying annual membership dues over the long run.

[California Joe]

You don't have to be liberal to think Pat Buchanan is full of ****.

Don't worry about anyone mistaking you for a liberal with General Forrest as a signature.... ;)

I'm an NMLRA member myself. I build them. Can't pideonhole everyone by their stances on single issues.

11F5S and Tane are probably the only ones in here old enough to remember real hippies.

[Sixgun Symphony]

You are definately a Neo-Conservative there.

I doubt many here know the difference between Paleo-Conservative and Neo-Conservative.
Anyway, I use the term hippie because there are so many hippie attitudes these days. Everything really went to pot in the 1960's.


So what do you build? Traditional long rifles? Siler locks? Swamped barrels? Please show us some of your work! :) We could start another thread on custom ML firearms and just leave the politics at the door.

[German_American]

I'm not a life memeber, I think I should become one I don't plan on leaving the NRA.

[German_American]

Anyway, I use the term hippie because there are so many hippie attitudes these days. Everything really went to pot in the 1960's.


Yeah the 60's sucked ass.

[hank]

Just curious about this neo-conservative crap. Why should any of us give .02$ about the label you want to put on us? I have voted for more republicans, conservative republicans, than a lot of people here. How many have you voted for sixgun? Instead of slapping labels around that are invented by people who are irrelevant, why not understand the landscape. Reading Pat Buchanan does not give you a view of anything but Pat's backside. Make up your own mind, if you happen to agree with Pat then so be it. We can respectfully disagree. But reading a bunch of Pat and then towing the line doesn't strike me as particularly intelligent or inspired. Just a thought. Especially when you want to slap some neo lable on me simply because as Joe said "Buchanan is full of ****" and I choose to think for myself. I can do without that thank you.

I don't particularly care for the NRA, but I don't particularly care for people who want to take away my guns either. That does not make me a liberal or a neo whatever. I just happen to not like some of hte positions taken by the NRA lately and that is my prerogorative, not someone elses. Does not mean any of you are neo or less thinking than I just because you do like hte NRA.

Reading conservative drivel skeptically does not make any of us liberals. As for making pro american comments and getting reamed German American - I don't think that is liberals who do that on this site - it is usually europeans who do that. I don't see a lot of america bashing from americans on here. Maybe I'm wrong. just a thought

hank

[StarvingStudent47]

Reading conservative drivel skeptically does not make any of us liberals. As for making pro american comments and getting reamed German American - I don't think that is liberals who do that on this site - it is usually europeans who do that. I don't see a lot of america bashing from americans on here. Maybe I'm wrong. just a thought

I'm a card-carrying Democrat and a liberal. I love the USA with all my heart, and I would give my life for this country if need be (though I'd rather just live my life peacefully in America's service).

The America-bashers of this forum are all from Europe or Canada (not all Canadians and Europeans are America-bashers, but all the America-bashers are from those places).

[Sixgun Symphony]

Just curious about this neo-conservative crap.

You need to do some reading about Paleo-Conservativism and Neo-Conservativism.

Neo-Cons are more liberal on social issues. Sort of like the old Rockefeller wing of the GOP.

The Neo-Conservatives support WTO and the shipping of American jobs to 3rd World sweatshops while the Paleo-Conservatives would protect American jobs with protectionist trade tariffs.

Neo-Cons want to renew the AWB, the Paleo-Conservatives would like for it to sunset.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I'm a card-carrying Democrat and a liberal. I love the USA with all my heart, and I would give my life for this country if need be (though I'd rather just live my life peacefully in America's service).


There are some liberals on our side in this war. But most liberals seem to be on the side of the "oppressed" groups like Hamas, Hezboullah, Al Qaida...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Hi there Sixgun Sympathy as an avid reader and a man who has read a ****load of books I am interested in your opinion on Richard Bultler's writings as they seem to be in the same vain as your expressed opinions on this forum.

[George W. Bush]

the AWB was all Clinton. How can you say they want that POS renewed? It doesn't help them one bit.

man it pisses me off how the libs are spinning this issue. they scare the public into thinking a semi-automatic "assault weapon" is a MACHINE GUN. sorry for the rant but it pisses me off.

these so-called "assault weapons" would include your kid's 10/22, your daddy's browning/winchester auto-loading shotgun, etc. and it's amazing that the majority of HUNTERS support this ****.

[hank]

sixgun - still that is not an answer for the neo lable. That label is only relevant if I chose to take a position because someone, anyone, told me to. That is not the case. I vehemently disagree with Bush on many issues, yet I vote for him b/c I consider him the lesser of evils. I agree wit hBush on others. I vehemently disagreed with Clinton on many issues and I did not vote for him b/c I consider him dangerous. I don't take those positions because the media, or Pat, or anybody else tells me to. I THINK about it and weigh the options with regard to my value system and my understanding of the political and constitutional landscape. I don't need to read about someone else's idea to know what mine is. I need to read about someone else's idea if it will help me formulate my own or make me understand why others reach a differenet conclusion.

This is the number one reason that I disagree with Rush. He says that if you are a moderate then you are hurting conservatives. I am not moderate on anything. I take my beliefs or stands on issues with great seriousness and I THINK before I ever take a position. Becaue I disagree does not make me moderate. In order for Rush to be correct about this, or Pat for that matter, then you must presuppose that the reason for my adoption on a position is that someone else agrees. That is not the case.

That is why your labels make no sense, because unless the person who came up with it has talked to me then there is no way to know if it is appropriate. Think about it.

I will also make a little response to your idiot liberal comment here b/c it fits. I am much more interested in a liberal who has a good reason for his position than in anything you have to say. At least the liberal (who I would more than likely disagree with) thinks, your ideas come from somebody else's idea about what conservativism or liberalism is. No thanks.

If I were a liberal I would not really care for conservatives becasue of silly labels like these. That is one ofthe reasons that I think guys like Gingrich, Rush, Buchanan miss the point. You don't create a following by saying I am right and you are stupid. If we lose this election, that will ultimately be part of the reason. If you, sixgun - not Pat or anybody else - believe strongly in a position - then articulate it and defend it. But calling me a neo conservative or anybody else a neoconservative will not make me agree or even understand you.

By the way - which liberal groups are on the side of hamas? Don't confuse the liberal position that muslims in america or anybody else should get the same treatment as caucasions as support for hamas or anybody else involved with terrorism. Maybe you refer to something else, if so, disregard this. I don't hear a lot of support for hamas from anybody on either side.

hank

[Durandal]

the AWB was all Clinton. How can you say they want that POS renewed? It doesn't help them one bit.

man it pisses me off how the libs are spinning this issue. they scare the public into thinking a semi-automatic "assault weapon" is a MACHINE GUN. sorry for the rant but it pisses me off.

these so-called "assault weapons" would include your kid's 10/22, your daddy's browning/winchester auto-loading shotgun, etc. and it's amazing that the majority of HUNTERS support this ****.

Unfortunately, the bill also had a fair number of Republicans follow suit. McCain is anti-gun which has always dissapointed me since I have always been a big fan of his. GW has also agreed to NOT veto if the House and Senate opt to renew the ban.

Either way, I agree, the AWB is stupid. It has done nothing to curb gun related crime (since most are comitted by weapons other than semi-automatic rifles).

Drives me nuts.

And people like the Brady's do nothing but LIE...straight out lie about facts and figures and if you have ever seen their website, it is filled with the most bitter resentment and fear in regards to gun owners...

Bah!

[Sixgun Symphony]

Hank,

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/

http://www.nationalreview.com/

Chronicles magazine is paleo-conservative. National Review magazine is neo-conservative. I recommend that you compare the two.

[Yard Ape]

I think it is well and good for US to support Israel. I think there will be peace in the region when Israel finally moves the Palestinian Arab population out of the West Bank and into Jordan. The reason why I think this is because the Jordanian river makes for a natural border. A militarized river is a much better barrier than any man made wall to insurgents.
So, you figure that peace can be had in the middle east by evicting entire families & communities and displacing them across a river? Have you ever considered to correlation between hatred/desire for revenge to Terrorism? You can bet that any such move would see a world of terrorist reprisals.

Don't coddle terrorists or cave to their desires, but don't victimise entire communities as a response either. The first course is defeat, the second course only makes the threat stronger.

[martinexsquaddie]

Well I'm a liberal and proud of it in the UK its not yet a term of abuse.
A lot of anti-american feeling is more anti president Bush who seems from this end of the pond amaziningly inept. The cuban prisoners for example either they have committed a crime and can be charged or there POWs and should be treated under the geneva convention fudge it front of a worldwide audiance not a great pr move.
served in the military and been shot at by american weapons supplied by americans to terrorists :( so tend to be fairly critical of americans lecturing everybody else on fighting terrorists.

[hank]

Why would I want to do that? Neo v paleo is only relevant if you are trying to follow one of the schools. You assume that I disagree with Pat or others on the far right in an attempt to be like people you lable neo. Or in an attempt to be liberal. Again, neither is the case.

I think Buckley is just as full of crap as Pat so what is the difference?
I am not interested in so-called political scientists who don't or aren't willing to give the bases for their opinions, whether they be on the left or the right.

Here is a thought, why don't you THINK about your positions and defend them instead of reading how someone else does, then we'll talk.

hank

[Tengu]

Well I'm a liberal and proud of it in the UK its not yet a term of abuse.
A lot of anti-american feeling is more anti president Bush who seems from this end of the pond amaziningly inept. The cuban prisoners for example either they have committed a crime and can be charged or there POWs and should be treated under the geneva convention fudge it front of a worldwide audiance not a great pr move.
served in the military and been shot at by american weapons supplied by americans to terrorists :( so tend to be fairly critical of americans lecturing everybody else on fighting terrorists.terrorist are not protected by the geneva convention.

[Durandal]

terrorist are not protected by the geneva convention.

Can YOU tell me which one of those in Cuba is a terrorist? Some of them are Taliban. Regardless of what you think of the Taliban, they were not terrorists. They were soldiers of a legitimately recognized nation. I got no love for them, but I would like to think that America is above stooping to its enemies' level..