British CP team in Iraq

[CX20]

I scanned this picture from my copy of the Daily Express newspaper, Monday 9th February edition. It is a picture of Prince Charles in Basra flanked by a British CP team, unit unknown.

There are at least three HK53s, with the lad second from left carrying a G3K. The HK53s have double magazines, Surefire torches and what appear to be ACOG reflex sights. The picture is clearer in the original paper and that is what they appear to be.

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/CP.JPG

[Apogee]

It was on the front page of the New York Times today as well.

[Red]

wow a black guy!

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

wow those guys are badass...charles looks a lil outta place...

[reverence]

Are you taking the piss Benibo or are you seriously amazed a black guy could do CPP?

[Jack Mehoff]

wow a black guy!

what about him?

[soldierandy]

The British Army has lots of Fijian soldiers who are excellent soldiers. And the SAS always had one or two Fijians among their ranks.

[Jack Mehoff]

CP stand for what?

[ogukuo72]

I'm glad to see that NOT everyone has gone along with the fashion of carrying an M4A1 crammed full of accessories!

[Ghostwolf]

The British Army has lots of Fijian soldiers who are excellent soldiers. And the SAS always had one or two Fijians among their ranks.

Also the Brigade of Gurkhas, they are one of the Elite British Royal army units.

[soldierandy]

The British Army has lots of Fijian soldiers who are excellent soldiers. And the SAS always had one or two Fijians among their ranks.

Also the Brigade of Gurkhas, they are one of the Elite British Royal army units.

Yeah but Ghurkas are not blacks. This guy is probably Fijian.

[BT_Recon]

CP stand for what?

Close Protection

[soma]

The British Army has lots of Fijian soldiers who are excellent soldiers. And the SAS always had one or two Fijians among their ranks.

Woot fiji pride +)

[mustamato]

I'm glad to see that NOT everyone has gone along with the fashion of carrying an M4A1 crammed full of accessories!

Word. One of them even has a G3KA4. Now that´s classy! The man is just
so "hey I don´t look like a pimped up american SF-wannabe, that´s why
I would hit you as well instead of the child behind you if you try something,
so don´t".

http://www.hkpro.com/image/g3ka4.jpg

[ogukuo72]

I'm glad to see that NOT everyone has gone along with the fashion of carrying an M4A1 crammed full of accessories!

Word. One of them even has a G3KA4. Now that´s classy! The man is just
so "hey I don´t look like a pimped up american SF-wannabe, that´s why
I would hit you as well instead of the child behind you if you try something,
so don´t".

http://www.hkpro.com/image/g3ka4.jpg

The G3K is a beautiful weapon indeed! :)

[wholagun]

wow a black guy!


LOL.. That was so out of place.. funny :lol:

[Royal]

The British Army has lots of Fijian soldiers who are excellent soldiers. And the SAS always had one or two Fijians among their ranks.

Also the Brigade of Gurkhas, they are one of the Elite British Royal army units.

The guy doesn't look Fijijan to me. He's probably just a black guy. We have them.

What exactly is an elite Royal British army unit? The Gurkhas are very good light infantry. That's it.

BTW we have a Royal Navy, Royal Marines, a Royal Air Force and an army.

[mustamato]

The guy doesn't look Fijijan to me. He's probably just a black guy. We have them.

rofl

No ****.

[tony6]

Word. One of them even has a G3KA4. Now that´s classy! The man is just so "hey I don´t look like a pimped up american SF-wannabe, that´s why I would hit you as well instead of the child behind you if you try something, so don´t".
"Takes more than combat gear to make a man"
("Englishman in New York"/Sting)
:D

[mack pl]

Are they from British Army(i guess its not SAS), or from something like US Secret Service??

[Gringo]

Possibly Royal Military Police CPU

[mack pl]

Ok, THX. But does Great Britain have something like US Secret Service? I dont know that, but maybe yours Scotland yard have some bodyguards for yor prime minister etc. ???

[Roger Rabbit]

MI5 covers home security. http://www.mi5.gov.uk/ Thats all i know.

edit: sorry my bad, didnt read the thread properly. MI5 covers home security and as far as i'm aware they do not carry out CP duty. There are many private firms which provide bodyguards though and these may be used. I'm just speculating here so don't take what i say for granted.

[mack pl]

Ok. At Poland we have something like US Secret service-its Biuro Ochrony Rzadu(Government security office,i dont know is that correct translantation).But MI5 could working only in GB i guess, so its more possible they are some military unit.

[marktigger]

they are probably Close Protection wing of the Royal Military Police who usually provide the CP to senior officers and VIP's though with it being the heir to the throne I would say there was probably alot of Hereford Hooligans kicking about as well.
Got quite friendly with some of them when i was in Iraq they are a great bunch of guys and are very good at their job and they have been extremley busy in the last few years as they also do Embassy protection to. Most of the service police's have teams Royal has a pic of a Royal Marine police troop team in Iraq. Though have never seen and RAF police team.

Royal do the Commando's provide the Teams for the Royal Navy or has someone let Reggies loose with guns?

the Metroplitan police usually provide the teams in the UK. And the old Royal Ulster Constabulary used to have a Bodyguard group. The First Royal Protection officers were as far as i remember provided by the Royal Irish Constabulary to Queen Victoria.

http://www.army.mod.uk/adjutant/provo/index.html

[mack pl]

Ok, so they arent MI5 guys. What about those Hereford holligans? I guess you mean former SAS members, yeah??? Or, maybe in Hereford they have football team, its not Premier ship i guess(i like FC Liverpool, we have goalkeeper here).So, in GB you have a lot of bodyguards teams, cool.I hope they all have the same level of skills.

[marktigger]

Hereford Holligans is a nickname we use for the SAS.
We don't have alot of teams. The main effort is the CPW of the Royal Military Police. They run the course for the service police guys. The Met and RUC/Psni teams tap into alot of stuff the military runs including training with the SAS. The SAS make their own arrangements.
A good source for information is the Bullet catchers by tony geraghty who i wish would up date it.

Does anyone know what the vests the guys have are?

[marktigger]

The British Army has lots of Fijian soldiers who are excellent soldiers. And the SAS always had one or two Fijians among their ranks.
the british army has

Fijians
Jamacians
Trinidadians
Zimbabweans
South Africans
Australians
New Zealanders
Canadians
Americans
Irish

And thats only what I've met !!!!!

[mack pl]

Whoes the F***k this Fijians????Ohhh, guys from Fiji, yeah?? Its yours former colony. Its very bad when you colonized some countrys ;) BTW Hereford Holligans, like US D-Boys(from Delta). Ours GROM members, are Gromowcy, but its not cool nickname like Her. Holl. or D-boys. BTW,sometimes you could used SAS guys to CPP, like we using GROM members(in Haiti 94, or Kosovo 99), yeah?

[Royal]

Royal do the Commando's provide the Teams for the Royal Navy or has someone let Reggies loose with guns?

The short answer is both. They do their basic CP training with the RMP and RAF guys (fully purple course), although some of the extras are ru n at Poole for obvious reasons. There are only about a dozen (non SF) CP trained Royals. Don't know how many Reggies...


Does anyone know what the vests the guys have are?

Yeah. It looks like the issue CP vest (originally made by Arktis, may well still be). I've only ever seen it in black and DPM before...

[CX20]

I didn't know the RM had only a dozen or so CP lads. As far as I know, the RAFP has about 24 in total on its CP unit, and the RMP has about 50, both all split into 4 man teams.

I am looking at going on a CP course at work, they have advertised for officers to apply and I am thinking of doing it.

[He219]

Nice pic CX20!

Here are a couple from Feb 8th's (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8453) Daily Thread:

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040208/i/r1265054897.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040208/capt.lon11402081622.iraq_britain_prince_charles__lon114.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040208/capt.lon11002081600.iraq_britain_prince_charles_lon110.jpg

I've been looking for the Hi-Res since Sunday. I'll post 'em when I find 'em.
:D

[DeltaWhisky58]

It seems unusual that the MoD (British) hasn't published anything whatsoever about HRH's visit on it's own websites. They normally have good high-res pix.

[scm77]

DELETE THIS REPLY

[OldRecon]

The British Army has lots of Fijian soldiers who are excellent soldiers. And the SAS always had one or two Fijians among their ranks.

The black guy in this photo doesn't exactly look like a Fijian to me, as those guys tend to be rather huge and built like a ton of brick.
During my time as a UN soldier it was a punishable offence to offer alcoholic drinks to Fijians during free/off duty times (something about kava and alchohol not going all to well together).
As for the collapsible stock G-3s, there's been problems with fatigue/rust in the welding of the endplate to the receiver (at least in the Norwegian army).
Used AG-3 with collapsible stock during my conscription service days, and although I had no problems with the examples alloted to me, I've witnessed endplates/buffers parting completely from the rest of the weapons of others I've served with on at least 2 occasions during range training (not nice stuff to happen).

[cut]

Are they from British Army(i guess its not SAS), or from something like US Secret Service??

what posing for cameras? doubt it

[mack pl]

So, they arent SAS(Hereford Holligans) :| They never posing to camera, yeah :cantbeli:

[cut]

So, they arent SAS(Hereford Holligans) :| They never posing to camera, yeah :cantbeli:

Try to find a picture were you can see the face of a SAS trooper, I think you'll find it's impossible. So, yeah pretty unlikely don't you think?

[mack pl]

:cantbeli: -this picture was my mistake. I think they are profesionalist(spel.), so they cannot show face. But for me, theirs faces are not very interested, im not gey.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I have it on good authority that this CP team, was in fact the same bunch of guys who deployed with Tony Blair in January - they are from the CP Wing, RMP.

[usa320]

In regards to earlier posts- i much rather have an M-4 loaded with accessories than a G-36. Why have just a gun and a scope when you can also have a grenade launcher, a supressor, a flashlight and a bipod?

More tools makes the job easier.

[mack pl]

I think, this tools could be on G36 too.Look at KSK memebers, they using G36 and G36K with flashlight, laser, grenade luncher(AG36 i think). In my opinion its very good weapon, but personally i like mostly M4 ;)

[DeltaWhisky58]

G-36? - yes please, but not yet. These guys are all armed with older, more combat proven H&K weaps - HK53 and G3KA4, plus SiG pistols. Given that British forces have access to M-16/C-7/C-8 variants, I think it speaks for itself which is considered to be more reliable - H&K rules supreme once again.
As for all of the whistles and bells - a properly trained shot surelely doesn't need laser designators/projectors etc. in what is basically a short range scenario, and is a grenade launcher really appropiate in the CP role? The need will have been properly evaluated by experts, and the need addressed - clearly what these guys have is considered adequate.

With the quality and effectiveness of British SF/CP training, I'd trust anyone to the protection of guys of this calibre anywhere, any time.

These guys have been described as looking Badass. Thery don't need to look Badass - they are, believe me!

[Argyll]

In regards to earlier posts- i much rather have an M-4 loaded with accessories than a G-36. Why have just a gun and a scope when you can also have a grenade launcher, a supressor, a flashlight and a bipod?

More tools makes the job easier.

Why would you need all that for CP work?

The G36 can be fitted with all of the above too ;)

[DeltaWhisky58]

In relation to this kind of work, answer me one question.........

If the M-4 series of weapons is so damned good, why do the US Secret Service, FBI HRT, Delta, most SWAT units and the majority of police/para military units worldwide outside the former Soviet sphere of influence etc., choose to carry Heckler & Koch weapons? Outside of the US military establishment, if you did a weapon by weapon count, I think H&K would shine bright over the M-4s all the way.

Remember back to Desert Storm of 1990 - Stormin' norman always had a very high-profile CP squad - what were they armed with - H&K of course.

[ibstolidude]

CP stand for what?
Jack - Close Protection

[ibstolidude]

If the M-4 series of weapons is so damned good, why do the US Secret Service, FBI HRT, Delta, most SWAT units and the majority of police/para military units worldwide outside the former Soviet sphere of influence etc., choose to carry Heckler & Koch weapons? Outside of the US military establishment, if you did a weapon by weapon count, I think H&K would shine bright over the M-4s all the way.

Remember back to Desert Storm of 1990 - Stormin' norman always had a very high-profile CP squad - what were they armed with - H&K of course.
Be careful about the assumptions you make in reference to which weapons agencies choose to use - Most SWAT units in the US do NOT use HK series SMG's as for the others - many weapons to included the AR/M16 series/progressions are used.
& There is a major difference in CP and CT versus the ability to a single weapon that encompasses both charecteristics reasonably well. And the M4 series is soo good....for what it was intended for.
Your argurement is like saying the pencil is not the best writing implement or else noone would use markers. When in fact neother are worth a **** if not used as intended.

[mustamato]

In regards to earlier posts- i much rather have an M-4 loaded with accessories than a G-36. Why have just a gun and a scope when you can also have a grenade launcher, a supressor, a flashlight and a bipod?

More tools makes the job easier.

Why would you need all that for CP work?

The G36 can be fitted with all of the above too ;)

But you see, you look more "cool" with a pimped M4 to some. Personally
I think the dude with the G3K looks badass, just because he has a naked
gun, and because I know that he can use it way better than the average US
grunt with a pimped M4 can use his rifle.

And by the way, isn´t it quite obvious that usa320 doesn´t have any real
experience with firearms, a grenade launcher and a bipod? A flashlight
and a suppressor? Why not a Masterkey under the GL as well :roll:

[marktigger]

usa320 where did you get the crap about the G36 from they've not been mentioned on this thread at all. As has been stated the weapons are (and I'll put it in big letters so you can read)


HK53
G3kA4

now having played with the 53 i very much like it and the reports of the G3K are excellent and it being 7.62 what it hits is going to think twice before it decides to do anything. The RMP CP teams are the best in the buisness and mysteriously there is very little unemployment amongst former team members.

[Argyll]

All I'd want is a weapon I could fire repeatedly knowing that I have the confidence in the weapon to do the job for me,does it make it a better weapon "tricked out"?,doing CP work is not about being a "Fanny Man"(Poser).....my buds in Iraq are carrying AK's,and Glocks.

[Gringo]

In regards to earlier posts- i much rather have an M-4 loaded with accessories than a G-36. Why have just a gun and a scope when you can also have a grenade launcher, a supressor, a flashlight and a bipod?

More tools makes the job easier.

Why would you need all that for CP work?

The G36 can be fitted with all of the above too ;)

But you see, you look more "cool" with a pimped M4 to some. Personally
I think the dude with the G3K looks badass, just because he has a naked
gun, and because I know that he can use it way better than the average US
grunt with a pimped M4 can use his rifle.

And by the way, isn´t it quite obvious that usa320 doesn´t have any real
experience with firearms, a grenade launcher and a bipod? A flashlight
and a suppressor? Why not a Masterkey under the GL as well :roll:

While were at it we'll add a McDonalds to the rifle too ;)

[marktigger]

agree argyll but are ur mates working for contractors or govt?

the CP teams are issued the HK's and Sigs and the choice of which is up to them which they carry. The MP5K is also in available

[Argyll]

Contractors ;)

[marktigger]

hence the bargin basement weapons :lol:

[Argyll]

Glocks are far from Bargain basement ;)

[fokket]

correct me if I am wrong ,but the reason that
many LE folks are with ARs than G36s is that they are cheaper than G36.
(And easier to buy)

[TriggerPuller]

In regards to earlier posts- i much rather have an M-4 loaded with accessories than a G-36. Why have just a gun and a scope when you can also have a grenade launcher, a supressor, a flashlight and a bipod?

More tools makes the job easier.

Why would you need all that for CP work?

The G36 can be fitted with all of the above too ;)

But you see, you look more "cool" with a pimped M4 to some. Personally
I think the dude with the G3K looks badass, just because he has a naked
gun, and because I know that he can use it way better than the average US
grunt with a pimped M4 can use his rifle.

And by the way, isn´t it quite obvious that usa320 doesn´t have any real
experience with firearms, a grenade launcher and a bipod? A flashlight
and a suppressor? Why not a Masterkey under the GL as well :roll: You are obviously more ignorant than I thought! What the hell would you know about the average American grunt. What is the qualifications on the rifle range for your beloved Military? Nobody wants to look "cool" at the expense of getting oneself killed,each accessory has an intended purpose. You think I wanna carry around extra weight so I can hope that someone will take a picture of me for militaryPhotos.net so I can look cool! Get a clue man!! I was on a PSD for Senator Edward Kennedy I used a CAR-15 and Sig P226.

TP

P.S. I will put up a "regular" Marine grunt on the rifle range to whatever you got in your country! What are the quals again?

[TriggerPuller]

Glocks are far from Bargain basement ;)True but they are less expensive than Sig but more reliable than just about anything else in any environment!

TP

Royal, what color is the boathouse at Hereford?

[He219]

Nice Ronin quote, TP!
:D

http://www.hkpro.com/action13g36kcapitol.jpg
mustamato, not 'pimped' enough without the carrying handle or AG36?
:roll:

[TriggerPuller]

[quote="He219"]Nice Ronin quote, TP!
:D

quote] Shhhhhhhh!!! I wanna see how many takers I get on this! :D

TP

[Fenna]

It doesn't matter what the weapon is, it's the level of training of the operator that counts.
An M4 with all those accessories is useless without a skilled operator.
Trust me when I say those British Army RMP guys are very capable at what they do.

[Beowulf]

I was on a PSD for Senator Edward Kennedy I used a CAR-15 and Sig P226.

I guess an unfortunate AD would be too much to ask.... :D

[Haiw]

[quote=He219]Nice Ronin quote, TP!
:D

quote] Shhhhhhhh!!! I wanna see how many takers I get on this! :D

TP
Damnit that's one of my favourite quotes...get your own :(

You should ask him for the color of the boathouse at Poole ;)

[cut]

All I'd want is a weapon I could fire repeatedly knowing that I have the confidence in the weapon to do the job for me,does it make it a better weapon "tricked out"?,doing CP work is not about being a "Fanny Man"(Poser).....my buds in Iraq are carrying AK's,and Glocks.

why AKs?

[ogukuo72]

If the M-4 series of weapons is so damned good, why do the US Secret Service, FBI HRT, Delta, most SWAT units and the majority of police/para military units worldwide outside the former Soviet sphere of influence etc., choose to carry Heckler & Koch weapons? Outside of the US military establishment, if you did a weapon by weapon count, I think H&K would shine bright over the M-4s all the way.

Remember back to Desert Storm of 1990 - Stormin' norman always had a very high-profile CP squad - what were they armed with - H&K of course.
Be careful about the assumptions you make in reference to which weapons agencies choose to use - Most SWAT units in the US do NOT use HK series SMG's as for the others - many weapons to included the AR/M16 series/progressions are used.
& There is a major difference in CP and CT versus the ability to a single weapon that encompasses both charecteristics reasonably well. And the M4 series is soo good....for what it was intended for.
Your argurement is like saying the pencil is not the best writing implement or else noone would use markers. When in fact neother are worth a **** if not used as intended.

The HK53 did enjoy a degree of adoption amongst US agencies, most notably by the DSS (now the Bureau of Diplomatic Security). The US Secret Service also deployed HK products, most notably the MP5.

Comparing the two:
The M4 has less felt recoil because of its longer barrel and recoil buffer. It has produced less muzzle flash and less muzzle blast, again because of its longer barrel. Its telescopic butt has four positions, and is firm when fully extended, compared to HK53 stocks - when well used, these stocks would wobble a little when fully extended, and will tilt at an angle when shouldered.

The HK53 is more compact and easier to use in confined space (such as in a car or in a room). It is easier to carried concealed in a carrier bag.

I'll probably pick the HK53 rather than the M4, simply because I want to stand out in the crowd of people carrying M4's!

[He219]

Why AK's?

Easily procured
Noise signature 'Blends in'
Weapon 'Blends in'
Lots of Ammo
Dependable
Takes lots of abuse
Close protection firepower

Just a few...
:D

[ogukuo72]

Why AK's?

Easily procured
Noise signature 'Blends in'
Weapon 'Blends in'
Lots of Ammo
Dependable
Takes lots of abuse
Close protection firepower

Just a few...
:D

Yeah, but that level safety/selector switch is not as easy to use as the thumb selector on the M4 and HK53.

[TriggerPuller]

Why AK's?

Easily procured
Noise signature 'Blends in'
Weapon 'Blends in'
Lots of Ammo
Dependable
Takes lots of abuse
Close protection firepower

Just a few...
:D

Yeah, but that level safety/selector switch is not as easy to use as the thumb selector on the M4 and HK53.When you are in harms way that selector is in the OFF position!! As a contractor I never had the AK on safe!

TP

[ibstolidude]

Why AK's?

Easily procured
Noise signature 'Blends in'
Weapon 'Blends in'
Lots of Ammo
Dependable
Takes lots of abuse
Close protection firepower

Just a few...
:D

Yeah, but that level safety/selector switch is not as easy to use as the thumb selector on the M4 and HK53.When you are in harms way that selector is in the OFF position!! As a contractor I never had the AK on safe!

TP
Hey keep it up and someone will come on here and tell YOU the way YOU really did it cause they have afriends whose brothers uncle cousins once read a book about a movie about a video game...

So watch it!

[ogukuo72]

Why AK's?

Easily procured
Noise signature 'Blends in'
Weapon 'Blends in'
Lots of Ammo
Dependable
Takes lots of abuse
Close protection firepower

Just a few...
:D

Yeah, but that level safety/selector switch is not as easy to use as the thumb selector on the M4 and HK53.When you are in harms way that selector is in the OFF position!! As a contractor I never had the AK on safe!

TP

!!!!*gasp* No safety?*gasp*!!!!

[He219]

Word. One of them even has a G3KA4. Now that´s classy! The man is just so "hey I don´t look like a pimped up american SF-wannabe, that´s why I would hit you as well instead of the child behind you if you try something, so don´t".

You should tell them face to face ....
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/close_protection/abb.jpg

[He219]

I'm still looking for the Hi-Res's. Nothing on the MoD site yet. Here are some 'others'




http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2946363.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC84983314B5609C5A4B9

BASRA, IRAQ: British troops and security are seen at the helicopter carrying Britain's Prince Charles during his visit to the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) and British military headquarters set-up in a palace belonging to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein at Shatt al-Arab, just south of the city of Basra 08 February 2004, in southern Iraq. Prince Charles who arrived by helicopter stayed for nearly two hours, visiting British troops of the Royal Regiment of Wales and the Royal Parachute Regiment, and later local Iraqi leaders at the CPA. AFP PHOTO/Hani Al-OBEIDI (Photo credit should read HANI AL-OBEIDI/AFP/***** Images)

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2946540.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC8498A13F0A8E30E3AF4
Did somebody say Fijian? hehe

BASRA, IRAQ: Britain's heir to the throne, Prince Charles, arrives by Chinook helicopter at Basra Airport, 08 February, 2004 for an unexpected visit to see British troops serving there. AFP PHOTO/PA/JOHN STILLWELL (Photo credit should read JOHN STILLWELL/AFP/***** Images)

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2946245.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC849D09F6E2D8744C55A
^ prolly the 'adjunct'

BASRA, IRAQ: Britain's Prince Charles, in military fatigue, waves as he is escorted by unidentified officers during a visit to the Coalition Provisional Authority and British military headquarters set-up in a palace belonging to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein at Shatt al-Arab, just south of the city of Basra 08 February 2004, in southern Iraq. Prince Charles who arrived by helicopter stayed for nearly two hours, visiting British troops and later local Iraqi leaders at the CPA. AFP PHOTO/Hani Al-OBEIDI (Photo credit should read HANI AL-OBEIDI/AFP/***** Images)

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2946584.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC849424A053D53E19518
Smashing uniform!

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2946607.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC849AD4B009BD69E49A0
:)

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2946316.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC849634CB42A6AACEEE0
Fijian ;)

BASRA, IRAQ: Britain's Prince Charles (2nd R), is seen during a visit to the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) and British military headquarters set-up in a palace belonging to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein at Shatt al-Arab, just south of the city of Basra 08 February 2004, in southern Iraq. Prince Charles who arrived by helicopter stayed for nearly two hours, visiting British troops of the Royal Regiment of Wales and the Royal Parachute Regiment, and later local Iraqi leaders at the CPA. AFP PHOTO/Hani Al-OBEIDI (Photo credit should read HANI AL-OBEIDI/AFP/***** Images)

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2953621.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=5D1A445495766A485A17D7CCDEEDF8E8
^ The 'adjunct' and Iranian CP

BAM, IRAN: The Prince of Wales talks with Iain Logan (left) the Scottish head of operations at the International Red Cross, as they tour the field Hospital set-up, in the Southern Iranian city of Bam,09 February, 2004. Charles today witnessed the devastation left behind by the powerful earthquake which struck the Iranian city in December. AFP PHOTO / JOHN STILLWELL / WPA POOL (Photo credit should read JOHN STILLWELL/AFP/***** Images)

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2947063.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC849CE18D144D3C934E5

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2947068.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6684AF03F23DC8497CFEE174E791ADC2

TEHRAN, IRAN: Britain's Prince Charles (C) arrives at MehrAbad airport in Tehran late 08 February 2003. Prince Charles arrived in Iran for a visit to the southeastern city of Bam, devastated by an earthquake in December that killed 43,000 people, an AFP correspondent at Tehran airport said. The trip marks the first visit to Iran by a member of the British royal family for more than 30 years. Prince Philip and Princess Anne visited Iran in 1971 for celebrations marking the 2,500th anniversary of the Persian empire. AFP PHOTO/Henghameh FAHIMI (Photo credit should read HENGHAMEH FAHIMI/AFP/***** Images)

[Jack Mehoff]

Word. One of them even has a G3KA4. Now that´s classy! The man is just so "hey I don´t look like a pimped up american SF-wannabe, that´s why I would hit you as well instead of the child behind you if you try something, so don´t".

You should tell them face to face ....
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/close_protection/abb.jpg

mustbeafaggot can tell that to me face to face.

[DeltaWhisky58]

If the M-4 series of weapons is so damned good, why do the US Secret Service, FBI HRT, Delta, most SWAT units and the majority of police/para military units worldwide outside the former Soviet sphere of influence etc., choose to carry Heckler & Koch weapons? Outside of the US military establishment, if you did a weapon by weapon count, I think H&K would shine bright over the M-4s all the way.

Remember back to Desert Storm of 1990 - Stormin' norman always had a very high-profile CP squad - what were they armed with - H&K of course.
Be careful about the assumptions you make in reference to which weapons agencies choose to use - Most SWAT units in the US do NOT use HK series SMG's as for the others - many weapons to included the AR/M16 series/progressions are used.
& There is a major difference in CP and CT versus the ability to a single weapon that encompasses both charecteristics reasonably well. And the M4 series is soo good....for what it was intended for.
Your argurement is like saying the pencil is not the best writing implement or else noone would use markers. When in fact neother are worth a **** if not used as intended.

Pardon me first of all if I have difficulty in understanding your assertions re: use/non-use of HK weapons.

Frankly this sounds like that standard "if it ain't made in the US it ain't worth having" argement to me. I used SWAT units as part of my arguement, but really they are the thin end of the wedge. You know as well as I do that H&K are so widely used and why. Your interpretation of my arguement is incorrect. If I were to protect my head of state, I would want to do it with the best, most reliable weapons on the market, e.g. H&K Rifles/SMGs and SiG pistols..............what is the US choice for doing the same for George Dubya...........oops, sorry...........had you forgotten?

[marktigger]

DW58 add onto the equation the number of international law enforcement agencies and SF who use HK products and I would sugest they are more widley used than the M4. How many UK police forces use M4 variants for their Tactical Firearms Teams? How many use SA80? 0
Go to Europe how many use M4's?

[Royal]

Royal, what color is the boathouse at Hereford?

DeNiro asked "what colour is the boathouse at Herford?".

BTW, Herford is a British garrison in Germany - never been there I'm afraid ;)

[DeltaWhisky58]

DW58 add onto the equation the number of international law enforcement agencies and SF who use HK products and I would sugest they are more widley used than the M4. How many UK police forces use M4 variants for their Tactical Firearms Teams? How many use SA80? 0
Go to Europe how many use M4's?

Many thanks - my point exactly.

We all know why our CP teams don't use either the M-4 or the SA80.
Just look at Europe's finest - SAS/SBS/GSG9/GIGN etc. OK, so the SAS/SBS use M-16/M-4/clones for battlefield work, but for CP/CT etc., yes you guessed it.

[Uninen]

Yeah, but that level safety/selector switch is not as easy to use as the thumb selector on the M4 and HK53.

Yeah..

One needs very long fingers if his going to 'un-safe' the weapon without taking his hand off the pistol grip..

I coulndt ever do that.. as i didnt have long enough fingers.. but some do..

(Safing and un-safing of AK type weapon can be done quite easily with the trigger finger, if you got the reach..)

[oldsoak]

I wouldnt want to p*ss them off , whatever they use.

[marktigger]

at the end of the day military personnel and LE personnel use what they are given. What they are given depends on how much money is available, the level of knowledge and personal preference of the procurer, The political interference from superiors and If there is any honesty in the system the results of accrate, balanced competitve trials.
Except for SF units there is very little scope for individual choice.

[jamesp]

You should tell them face to face ....
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/close_protection/abb.jpg


Wow, guy on the right. I never knew James Hetfield of 'Metallica' was in the military.

http://www.rockshoppe.com/pinups/rock/r_jamesh.jpg

http://sqdev.dk.fairhost.dk/galleri/Metallica/34ta0461.jpg


Blah, can't find a decent picture of him. :(

[ibstolidude]

Pardon me first of all if I have difficulty in understanding your assertions re: use/non-use of HK weapons.

Frankly this sounds like that standard "if it ain't made in the US it ain't worth having" argement to me. I used SWAT units as part of my arguement, but really they are the thin end of the wedge. You know as well as I do that H&K are so widely used and why. Your interpretation of my arguement is incorrect. If I were to protect my head of state, I would want to do it with the best, most reliable weapons on the market, e.g. H&K Rifles/SMGs and SiG pistols..............what is the US choice for doing the same for George Dubya...........oops, sorry...........had you forgotten?
- if you read anywhere in my comments that: "if it ain't made in the US it ain't worht having" then you lack basic comprehension skills or you like most immature people are so concerned with "winning" an arguement that reality makes no difference.

- Pardon me first of all if I had difficulty in understanding your assertions re: use/non-use of HK weapons -as you stated one thing but mean another
- Frankly this sounds like that standard "I'll just change the intention of my arguement latter" crap that most people like to pull.


You in fact DID make the comment that US SWAT teams predominantely use HK products...YOu in fact DID make the comment that US CP teams from various agency do not use the M4 and that is false. The pictures from this sight alone will disagree with those comments.
The DSS and Secret Service do in fact use the M4 series of weapons. If I was protecting a person in the domestic US and expected my shooting distance up close and personal and/or require a degree of concealment I would certainly go with HK, considering as I stated that is NOT the purpose of the M4 style weapons. If I was in a fwd deployed location and in an area with higher exposure (more open or required more time in the outdoors/open area), where shooting could take pace at distance or up close, I would use an M4 style weapon (which is the weapons purpose). Appearantly so do US agencies. There are many other factors to consider to be choose weapons, what am I issued, most familiar with, location and terrain, threat level/expectation, needed concealment of weapons in agents v/s escorts (as your escorts should typically blend in with protectees party + position/duty of team member - agent, escort, inner perimeter, outer perimeter, driver etc).

In some tactical capacity or another (some closer, some farther) I have been involved in CP for 2 stars to corp commanders 4 stars, to Theater CINCs, to Ambassadors, to the SEECDEF all while fwd deployed. Due to the location of the details all involved used M4 series weapons... to include the DSS agents assigned to protect them. Certainly part of the decision for us is easy sa we train on M4's, but the DSS and other US prtective services made a choice as they have HK and M4 in the inventory. In only one instance did ONE of their personal bodyguard carry an HK weapon MP5 series weapon. It isn't that HK is no good, they are premier cutting edge. But they are not the end all be all of the weapons world. They are designed to serve a purpose - as is the M4. In many instances the M4 suits the bill, in many other instance HK's are the tool for the job. - My arguement remains unchanged.

As I recall you wrote:

If the M-4 series of weapons is so damned good, why do the US Secret Service, FBI HRT, Delta, most SWAT units (sic) choose to carry Heckler & Koch weapons? -they also choose to use the M4. they are intelligent enough to pick the weapon that suits the mission. Don't pigeon-hole them, especially when you don't work with them. Everyone you mentioned in this post reference the US uses the M4 series of weapons. You used an arguement in which you have very little knowledge, because you wished to make a point.
When I pointed out that your assumptions about the US usage of weapons was not entirely accurate, you then attempted to state that in some screwy capacity I implied in my posts "if it ain't made in the US in ain't ****." I care not for the comparrision of the M4 v/s the HK because that was not your original arguement. In fact the only comment I made that could be a comparison is that they both serve a specific purpose and work well when used in their respective capacity.

[Gringo]

Is anyone else get pissed off with this M4 vs G36/Mp5 ****?
Coz I am!

[DeltaWhisky58]

Is anyone else get pissed off with this M4 vs G36/Mp5 ****?
Coz I am!

I wouldn't say I was pissed off with the thread, however as I have now been told by a self-declared authority that I don't know anything about the subject, I won't bother to comment further. I know the points I wished to make, others clearly understood them, even if one self-opinionated ****head clearly doesn't!

[Gringo]

I didn't say u hated the thread, it's just that it went all FUBAR when someone said "WTF are they doin with those weapons, why don't they use an M4 with a McDonalds attachment? F**kin morons".
It always seems to me that this is how all the arguments get started up, on any thread let alone this one.

[spectre5]

Triggerpuller, make up your own jokes. Don't borrow them from books.

t.
Antti Korpela

[He219]

How does the quote go ...

"Once that first bullet goes whizzing by your head, politics and all that other stuff goes out the window ... "

I would wager to say that HK sales to United States Federal, Regional and Local Governments exceeds sales to any other single national identity, other than Germany itself. ;)

HK clearly is the manufacturer of the finest assault arms in the world. To criticize any foreign government for standardizing weapons in gerneral service is a travesty. To say that US Special Operations, Close Protection or Diplomatic services don't use HK products would be a clear misinterpretation of the facts.

:D

[DeltaWhisky58]

How does the quote go ...

"Once that first bullet goes whizzing by your head, politics and all that other stuff goes out the window ... "

I would wager to say that HK sales to United States Federal, Regional and Local Governments exceeds sales to any other single national identity, other than Germany itself. ;)

HK clearly is the manufacturer of the finest assault arms in the world. To criticize any foreign government for standardizing weapons in gerneral service is a travesty. To say that US Special Operations, Close Protection or Diplomatic services don't use HK products would be a clear misinterpretation of the facts.

:D

Thank goodness someone from the left side of the pond can see what I was getting at, even if ibstolidude can't.

Screaming Eagle wrote:

I didn't say u hated the thread

Sorry if you misunderstood me there mate, I was actually agreeing with you in that I was getting pissed off with the way things were going on the thread. I think it is safe to say that the British and most other contributors to this thread are singing from the same hymn-sheet - it's just that a few who should know better judging by their "I've been everywhere/done everything man" posts, would appear to choose to do otherwise.

Perhaps looking through the multitude of bolt-on goodies on an M-4 can give you tunnel vision. rofl

[TriggerPuller]

Pardon me first of all if I have difficulty in understanding your assertions re: use/non-use of HK weapons.

Frankly this sounds like that standard "if it ain't made in the US it ain't worth having" argement to me. I used SWAT units as part of my arguement, but really they are the thin end of the wedge. You know as well as I do that H&K are so widely used and why. Your interpretation of my arguement is incorrect. If I were to protect my head of state, I would want to do it with the best, most reliable weapons on the market, e.g. H&K Rifles/SMGs and SiG pistols..............what is the US choice for doing the same for George Dubya...........oops, sorry...........had you forgotten?
- if you read anywhere in my comments that: "if it ain't made in the US it ain't worht having" then you lack basic comprehension skills or you like most immature people are so concerned with "winning" an arguement that reality makes no difference.

- Pardon me first of all if I had difficulty in understanding your assertions re: use/non-use of HK weapons -as you stated one thing but mean another
- Frankly this sounds like that standard "I'll just change the intention of my arguement latter" crap that most people like to pull.


You in fact DID make the comment that US SWAT teams predominantely use HK products...YOu in fact DID make the comment that US CP teams from various agency do not use the M4 and that is false. The pictures from this sight alone will disagree with those comments.
The DSS and Secret Service do in fact use the M4 series of weapons. If I was protecting a person in the domestic US and expected my shooting distance up close and personal and/or require a degree of concealment I would certainly go with HK, considering as I stated that is NOT the purpose of the M4 style weapons. If I was in a fwd deployed location and in an area with higher exposure (more open or required more time in the outdoors/open area), where shooting could take pace at distance or up close, I would use an M4 style weapon (which is the weapons purpose). Appearantly so do US agencies. There are many other factors to consider to be choose weapons, what am I issued, most familiar with, location and terrain, threat level/expectation, needed concealment of weapons in agents v/s escorts (as your escorts should typically blend in with protectees party + position/duty of team member - agent, escort, inner perimeter, outer perimeter, driver etc).

In some tactical capacity or another (some closer, some farther) I have been involved in CP for 2 stars to corp commanders 4 stars, to Theater CINCs, to Ambassadors, to the SEECDEF all while fwd deployed. Due to the location of the details all involved used M4 series weapons... to include the DSS agents assigned to protect them. Certainly part of the decision for us is easy sa we train on M4's, but the DSS and other US prtective services made a choice as they have HK and M4 in the inventory. In only one instance did ONE of their personal bodyguard carry an HK weapon MP5 series weapon. It isn't that HK is no good, they are premier cutting edge. But they are not the end all be all of the weapons world. They are designed to serve a purpose - as is the M4. In many instances the M4 suits the bill, in many other instance HK's are the tool for the job. - My arguement remains unchanged.

As I recall you wrote:

If the M-4 series of weapons is so damned good, why do the US Secret Service, FBI HRT, Delta, most SWAT units (sic) choose to carry Heckler & Koch weapons? -they also choose to use the M4. they are intelligent enough to pick the weapon that suits the mission. Don't pigeon-hole them, especially when you don't work with them. Everyone you mentioned in this post reference the US uses the M4 series of weapons. You used an arguement in which you have very little knowledge, because you wished to make a point.
When I pointed out that your assumptions about the US usage of weapons was not entirely accurate, you then attempted to state that in some screwy capacity I implied in my posts "if it ain't made in the US in ain't ****." I care not for the comparrision of the M4 v/s the HK because that was not your original arguement. In fact the only comment I made that could be a comparison is that they both serve a specific purpose and work well when used in their respective capacity.Great post! Couldnt have said it better myself!

TP

[TriggerPuller]

Triggerpuller, make up your own jokes. Don't borrow them from books.

t.
Antti Korpela Hey piss antti dont ever refer to me in any of your posts again! It was in reference to a movie and it was between me and my friend Royal!!

TP

BTW Suck my ****(not a joke and didnt borrow it from a"book")

[marktigger]

yes but to rubbish other equipment just because your military/Law enforcement community don't use it or not invented here syndrome shows a fundemental lack of Knowledge, flexibility and a very immature attitude.

Most governments with a smallarms manufacturer will try and get all the contracts to go to that manufacturer hence the reason the British armed forces ended up with the SA80. And the militaries are stuck with them good or bad. The M16 is becomming the prodominant small arm across the world because the US military is getting rid of large quantities very cheaply and what government is going to turn down a bargin basement offer. The same was true of the AK in the 60's,70's and 80's. Does it mean its the best assualt rifle in the world? no. ifs there's a good offer on them and what govt will turn down saving tax payers money. Why did germany opt for the G36 because HK is a german employer why is america buying loads of M4's to replace M16's 1 factor is they're made in the USA. so local employment is anothe major consideration.
Nations who run fair trials will give a better indication but there is always the danger of political interference if for example a bargin is offered or there are manufacturing offsets etc.
The American Military has a strong ethos of using American weapons were possible though I would say some common sense has come into play with the introduction of the MAG M240 and the Minimi. And so has the Germans. If the british soldier had the choice many would opt for the M16 but we don't get that choice.
Having looked at both my personal preference would be the HK G36. Why HK has an excellent track record, The weapon is well designed logically laid out and well made. It also has a reputation of being reliable. It is also a more modern design. That is what I would buy if I was allowed to pick my weapon. But I'm not so I will continue to use what I am issued..
Everyone has an opinion about what assualt rifle is best and there are no right or wrong answers. (Though some would say SA80 is the wrong answer but if looked after and in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing with it it will kill you as dead as a G36 or an M4).

The RMP Team is issued and uses Sig 229, MP5K,HK53 and G3Ka4 they have no choice in this they are trained to use them and they use them very very effectivley.
The US teams carry the M4 because thats what they are Issued they are trained to use them .
Its not the weapon that matters its actually the human being in the loop and the training he or she has received. Personally I think the RMP teams are the best Non SF teams in the Buisness.

[DeltaWhisky58]

yes but to rubbish other equipment just because your military/Law enforcement community don't use it or not invented here syndrome shows a fundemental lack of Knowledge, flexibility and a very immature attitude.

Most governments with a smallarms manufacturer will try and get all the contracts to go to that manufacturer hence the reason the British armed forces ended up with the SA80. And the militaries are stuck with them good or bad. The M16 is becomming the prodominant small arm across the world because the US military is getting rid of large quantities very cheaply and what government is going to turn down a bargin basement offer. The same was true of the AK in the 60's,70's and 80's. Does it mean its the best assualt rifle in the world? no. ifs there's a good offer on them and what govt will turn down saving tax payers money. Why did germany opt for the G36 because HK is a german employer why is america buying loads of M4's to replace M16's 1 factor is they're made in the USA. so local employment is anothe major consideration.
Nations who run fair trials will give a better indication but there is always the danger of political interference if for example a bargin is offered or there are manufacturing offsets etc.
The American Military has a strong ethos of using American weapons were possible though I would say some common sense has come into play with the introduction of the MAG M240 and the Minimi. And so has the Germans. If the british soldier had the choice many would opt for the M16 but we don't get that choice.
Having looked at both my personal preference would be the HK G36. Why HK has an excellent track record, The weapon is well designed logically laid out and well made. It also has a reputation of being reliable. It is also a more modern design. That is what I would buy if I was allowed to pick my weapon. But I'm not so I will continue to use what I am issued..
Everyone has an opinion about what assualt rifle is best and there are no right or wrong answers. (Though some would say SA80 is the wrong answer but if looked after and in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing with it it will kill you as dead as a G36 or an M4).

The RMP Team is issued and uses Sig 229, MP5K,HK53 and G3Ka4 they have no choice in this they are trained to use them and they use them very very effectivley.
The US teams carry the M4 because thats what they are Issued they are trained to use them .
Its not the weapon that matters its actually the human being in the loop and the training he or she has received. Personally I think the RMP teams are the best Non SF teams in the Buisness.

Thank you - very well put.

[He219]

RATS!

It appears that this is the only image the MoD is going to publish.

http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/portraits/hrhpow_2para_tn.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/portraits/hrhpow_2para_hr.jpg)

HRH The Prince of Wales talks with the men of 2 Para during his visit to Basrah

I suppose it's to protect the identities of the individuals on the CPD ....

;)

[He219]

MARK.TIGGER, generally I agree with your statement with the exception that 'common sense' has come into play far before the introduction of the M240 and M249. Take the Krag Rifle as an example from the late 19th century or the adoption of the license built RR Merlin Engine for our P-51's. Just look at the corporations that General Dynamics Land Systems has taken over; Steyr-Daimler-Puch, MOWAG of Switzerland and Santa Barbara Sistemas (GDSBS) of Spain. Most recently, the Chicago-based Bank One purchased a 75% controlling share in the Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) shipyard, the world's premier exporter of non-nuclear submarines.

The modern weapon's procurement environment is based on a global market. Didn't Royal Ordinance own a controling interest in HK for a while; would'nt that be some explaination for the plethora of HK producs in use with British forces? Effective 'foreign' weapon systems have been fielded by US forces since our independence some 228 years ago ...

Take my last example:

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/xm8model.jpg

Enough said!
;)

[Royal]

Guy's, there's enough bollocks going round here at the moment without those one either side of the pond who know their stuff dripping off at each other.

UK CP teams use HK (longs) - although I've seen both RM & RMP CP teams with 'tricked out' L119A1's too.

Our cousins across the pond also use HK and M4 SOPMOD's, for the same kind of role we use the L119A1 (although probably more).

I'm no CP expert but for the kind of role pictured (VVIP in a medium to high risk urban environment) I'd take the L101A1 (HK 53) - that's if any one's interested in my opinion ;)

[TriggerPuller]

Royal, what color is the boathouse at Hereford?

DeNiro asked "what colour is the boathouse at Herford?".

BTW, Herford is a British garrison in Germany - never been there I'm afraid ;) And de Niro's bud says "there is a boathouse at Hereford?" and deNiro reply's "how the hell should I know".

TP

[TriggerPuller]

If we got to shoot it out with the bad guys then we havent done our job correctly in the first place. My job is to cover and evacuate. If I have to be reactive as opposed to proactive Iam probably dead anyway no matter what I might be carrying.

TP

[DeltaWhisky58]

RATS!

It appears that this is the only image the MoD is going to publish.

http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/portraits/hrhpow_2para_tn.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/portraits/hrhpow_2para_hr.jpg)

HRH The Prince of Wales talks with the men of 2 Para during his visit to Basrah

I suppose it's to protect the identities of the individuals on the CPD ....

;)

I e-mailed the MoD webmaster yesterday and again today to enquire why there has been so little coverage of HRH's visit, when other less significant events have rated half a dozen pix or more - they haven't even read my mails so far...........I think that says it all.

[OldRecon]

When you are in harms way that selector is in the OFF position!! As a contractor I never had the AK on safe!

TP

How was the proverb of one of those Delta operators depicted in the Blackhawk down story, when he got ripped off by that Ranger captain for walking around within the base compound with safety Off on his loaded CAR?

"My safety is up here" (pointing to the head).
Would rather expect better though from a guy allegedly belonging of the "best of the best".
He should have been experienced enough to know that such a kind of "safety" may work for a few but isn't for everyone. If everyone were to reason the same way, you would have ND's all over the place.
Yet he couldn't contain himself, however much a martinet that Ranger captain was, and talked back (and rather ridiculed the captain in front of his men, which is another no no).
Wouldn't surprise me if youngsters watching the movie would think of that scene as sooO COOL, though my instant personal reaction to that was "f***in ****!"

[TriggerPuller]

When you are in harms way that selector is in the OFF position!! As a contractor I never had the AK on safe!

TP

How was the proverb of one of those Delta operators depicted in the Blackhawk down story, when he got ripped off by that Ranger captain for walking around within the base compound with safety Off on his loaded CAR?

"My safety is up here" (pointing to the head).
Would rather expect better though from a guy allegedly belonging of the "best of the best".
He should have been experienced enough to know that such a kind of "safety" may work for a few but isn't for everyone. If everyone were to reason the same way, you would have ND's all over the place.
Yet he couldn't contain himself, however much a martinet that Ranger captain was, and talked back (and rather ridiculed the captain in front of his men, which is another no no).
Wouldn't surprise me if youngsters watching the movie would think of that scene as sooO COOL, though my instant personal reaction to that was "f***in ****!"If Iam in the chow line or what not and there is the possibility of a fork getting stuck in my trigger guard then ill have the safety on but and I repeat again when Iam in harms way ,the fine motor skills dont work so well,it will be in the off position!

TP

[OldRecon]

Yeah, but that level safety/selector switch is not as easy to use as the thumb selector on the M4 and HK53.

Yeah..

One needs very long fingers if his going to 'un-safe' the weapon without taking his hand off the pistol grip..

I coulndt ever do that.. as i didnt have long enough fingers.. but some do..

(Safing and un-safing of AK type weapon can be done quite easily with the trigger finger, if you got the reach..)

Oh yeah? I would like to see that rofl.
Cause besides long fingers, one would need rather strong fingers too.
The initial resistance to overcome before, pushing the safety lever position locking notch out of the corresponding groove on the gun body, is quite a lot. Unless you doctor the position locking notch a bit perhaps.

The funny thing with the AK though is that when you manage to turn the safety OFF the first ON position is full auto rather than semi-auto as common in other assault rifles.

[OldRecon]

When you are in harms way that selector is in the OFF position!! As a contractor I never had the AK on safe!

TP

How was the proverb of one of those Delta operators depicted in the Blackhawk down story, when he got ripped off by that Ranger captain for walking around within the base compound with safety Off on his loaded CAR?

"My safety is up here" (pointing to the head).
Would rather expect better though from a guy allegedly belonging of the "best of the best".
He should have been experienced enough to know that such a kind of "safety" may work for a few but isn't for everyone. If everyone were to reason the same way, you would have ND's all over the place.
Yet he couldn't contain himself, however much a martinet that Ranger captain was, and talked back (and rather ridiculed the captain in front of his men, which is another no no).
Wouldn't surprise me if youngsters watching the movie would think of that scene as sooO COOL, though my instant personal reaction to that was "f***in ****!"If Iam in the chow line or what not and there is the possibility of a fork getting stuck in my trigger guard then ill have the safety on but and I repeat again when Iam in harms way ,the fine motor skills dont work so well,it will be in the off position!

TP

Not meaning to insult you personaly, though as said the "safety up here" approach isn't for everyone.
Used to sleep with the AG-3 besides me in my bed when I did UN duty, but with safety ON :).

[He219]

Used to sleep with the AG-3 besides me in my bed when I did UN duty, but with safety ON :).
Gotta love the TSG
http://www.hkpro.com/image/action2norway1.jpg

[TriggerPuller]

When you are in harms way that selector is in the OFF position!! As a contractor I never had the AK on safe!

TP

How was the proverb of one of those Delta operators depicted in the Blackhawk down story, when he got ripped off by that Ranger captain for walking around within the base compound with safety Off on his loaded CAR?

"My safety is up here" (pointing to the head).
Would rather expect better though from a guy allegedly belonging of the "best of the best".
He should have been experienced enough to know that such a kind of "safety" may work for a few but isn't for everyone. If everyone were to reason the same way, you would have ND's all over the place.
Yet he couldn't contain himself, however much a martinet that Ranger captain was, and talked back (and rather ridiculed the captain in front of his men, which is another no no).
Wouldn't surprise me if youngsters watching the movie would think of that scene as sooO COOL, though my instant personal reaction to that was "f***in ****!"If Iam in the chow line or what not and there is the possibility of a fork getting stuck in my trigger guard then ill have the safety on but and I repeat again when Iam in harms way ,the fine motor skills dont work so well,it will be in the off position!

TP

Not meaning to insult you personaly, though as said the "safety up here" approach isn't for everyone.
Used to sleep with the AG-3 besides me in my bed when I did UN duty, but with safety ON :).Completely different scenario. If Iam kicking in a door or doing a kidnap/hostage rescue scenario the firearm will already be off safe same with patrolling. But if in garrison or sleeping with said weapon then yes it goes ON safe. I have carried a firearm one way or another for the last 20 years never had a problem yet and god willing never will. Iam sure I will get roasted by the weinies around here but when I carried my 1911 there I NEVER kept the thumb safety on either.My hand still had to be in the grip safety and my finger still has to be on the trigger for it to go bang. People who dont have enough experience or maturity to carry handguns or rifles this way should not be doing it like I do or others like me with years of extensive experience carrying firearms. I dont claim to know a whole lot but three things I do know are firearms,fighting(H2H) and getting the ladies!!!!!!!!!!!

TP

[ogukuo72]

Yeah, but that level safety/selector switch is not as easy to use as the thumb selector on the M4 and HK53.

Yeah..

One needs very long fingers if his going to 'un-safe' the weapon without taking his hand off the pistol grip..

I coulndt ever do that.. as i didnt have long enough fingers.. but some do..

(Safing and un-safing of AK type weapon can be done quite easily with the trigger finger, if you got the reach..)

Oh yeah? I would like to see that rofl.
Cause besides long fingers, one would need rather strong fingers too.
The initial resistance to overcome before, pushing the safety lever position locking notch out of the corresponding groove on the gun body, is quite a lot. Unless you doctor the position locking notch a bit perhaps.

The funny thing with the AK though is that when you manage to turn the safety OFF the first ON position is full auto rather than semi-auto as common in other assault rifles.

I handled an AK once before, and the strange thing about that particular AK was that when you push the safety lever down, it snaps all the way down to the semi-auto position, skipping the full-auto position. If I want to choose full-auto, I have to return the lever half-way up.

Can anyone tell me if this was the way it was supposed to be, or did I just pushed too hard?

[He219]

Can anyone tell me if this was the way it was supposed to be, or did I just pushed too hard?

Having 'Full Auto' available as the first position from 'Safe' is quite logical in a combat situation. Single fire mandates that the shooter find his target with greater skill, thus the second position.

It sounds like your selector lever isn't properly engaging the 'slot' on the fly. Just my $.02 ...

:P

[marktigger]

If we got to shoot it out with the bad guys then we havent done our job correctly in the first place. My job is to cover and evacuate. If I have to be reactive as opposed to proactive Iam probably dead anyway no matter what I might be carrying.

TP


Trigger Puller agree if it gets to the point of rounds going downrange the Team have are in serious trouble. The debate on the weapons started because of peoples opinions on the best weapons.

[ibstolidude]

If we got to shoot it out with the bad guys then we havent done our job correctly in the first place. My job is to cover and evacuate. If I have to be reactive as opposed to proactive Iam probably dead anyway no matter what I might be carrying.

TP


Trigger Puller agree if it gets to the point of rounds going downrange the Team have are in serious trouble. The debate on the weapons started because of peoples opinions on the best weapons.

the debate over weapons, on my end started because I was told that the US agencies, SWAT and military DO NOT use the M4 in CP duties and I disagree. My personal preferences in weapons plays no part in my disagreement.

[admar2]

Royal, what color is the boathouse at Hereford?

DeNiro asked "what colour is the boathouse at Herford?".

BTW, Herford is a British garrison in Germany - never been there I'm afraid ;) And de Niro's bud says "there is a boathouse at Hereford?" and deNiro reply's "how the hell should I know".

TP

actually it was that german sounding mofo that said something like "what color is the boathouse at Hereford?" and Deniro said "how the hell should I know"

;)

[Haiw]

To be completely correct:
Guy with glasses: 'So what colo(u)r is the boathoase at Hereford?'
DeNiro: 'How the **** should I know.'

[TriggerPuller]

Hey I never claimed to be right all the time!

TP

[Ian H]

Royal, what's an L119A1 please?

And also do you know of anywhere there's an available list of what weapons get what L numbers?

Thanks in advance

[Royal]

Royal, what's an L119A1 please?

It's the British designation for the Diemaco C8 SFW.


And also do you know of anywhere there's an available list of what weapons get what L numbers?

Thanks in advance

Nothing that's not Restricted. Try Google.

[marktigger]

BTW its Rifle 5.56mm L119a1
as opposed to Gun light 105mm L119a1

tried Google nothing appeared on L numbers

[Royal]

Good point - there's a bit of a difference (especially if you've got to carry it ;) ).

[Ian H]

Cheers