The soldier who refuses to fight

[Skaman]

By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, February 7, 2004 - Page F3


On a snowbound afternoon 955 kilometres north of where the U.S. Army says he should be, Private First Class Hinzman, Jeremy D., No. 503946779, is sitting in the sunroom of the rambling old mansion owned by Toronto's pacifist Quakers. He is describing the chants he learned in basic training.

"You're always walking around in formation. And you have this [marching] chant: 'We're trained to kill, and kill we will.' And during bayonet training, the instructors ask this question, 'What makes the grass grow?' and everyone chants in response, 'Blood, blood, blood.' "

The U.S. Army wants him in Fort Bragg, N.C., home of the 82nd Airborne Division, "America's Guard of Honor." But this week Mr. Hinzman, 25, passed the 30-day limit for being absent without leave. He officially became a deserter.

Just before midnight on Jan. 2, he and his wife, Nga Nguyen, 31, quietly loaded their 21-month-old son, Liam, and a few belongings into their 1996 Chevrolet Prism and disappeared into the darkness for a 17-hour drive to the Canadian border. They left just before his unit -- the second battalion of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment -- was shipped overseas.

As a result, Mr. Hinzman is believed to be the first U.S. soldier to apply for refugee status in Canada after refusing combat duty in Iraq -- the first echo of the 12,000 deserters and 20,000 draft resisters who came north more than 30 years ago to escape the Vietnam War.

In 2002, Mr. Hinzman asked the army to declare him a conscientious objector because he had arrived at the religious conviction that killing and war in any guise are wrong. His request was rejected.

He has in principle the basis for a refugee claim. He believes that the invasion of Iraq is an international human-rights violation in which he cannot morally take part; he says he will be subjected to persecution for this belief if sent back: imprisonment and dishonourable discharge, leading to discrimination in the job market. ("They were always telling us, 'You get dishonourable discharge and you're going to be flipping burgers your whole life.' ")

There is a precedent of sorts. Canada accepted an Iranian conscript who said he had deserted thinking his country was going to use chemical weapons.

In practice, however, the odds that Mr. Hinzman will be declared a refugee are not robust. "For Americans of any sort," says University of Toronto law professor Audrey Macklin, an expert on refugee law, "the chances are low. Extremely low. Very rare." As in, there may be a couple of favourable decisions by the Immigration and Refugee Board that have escaped notice.

Chuck Fager is executive director of Quaker House in Fayetteville, the city bordering Fort Bragg. Last year, his counsellors received 6,000 calls from troubled soldiers. He says Mr. Hinzman fits the profile of today's recruits: undereducated people from small-town and rural America with few employment opportunities who join up for the money.

Both Mr. Hinzman and his wife grew up in Rapid City, S.D., population 62,000, in the shadow of Mount Rushmore. After high school, he decided not go to college because he was afraid of saddling himself with student debt and "starting a whole cycle of middle-class existence." He went to work as a baker.

Ms. Nguyen earned an undergraduate social-work degree from the University of South Dakota and found a job working with disadvantaged preschool children. She met her future husband through a mutual acquaintance and fell in love.

They moved to Boston in 2000 to experience life in a big city. Ms. Nguyen, burned out from social work, found a job in a health-food store. Mr. Hinzman took whatever employment he could find.

They wanted to start a family, but Mr. Hinzman felt his life was going nowhere and hit on the idea of joining the army. If he served a four-year stint, the military would give him $50,000 he could use for college. Ms. Nguyen tried to talk him out of it. "I could see his thinking . . . but the military ! I finally said, 'You decide, and I'll support you.' "

He enlisted on Jan. 17, 2001, leaving Ms. Nguyen -- they had married a few weeks earlier -- in Boston while he did his basic training at Fort Benning in Georgia.

At first, he liked the army. He signed up for a paratroop regiment. He liked the camaraderie. He liked the idea of free housing and subsidized groceries. "Shooting rockets and machine guns and jumping out of planes, it's all fun until you start to think about the bigger picture and what it's all about."

Meaning an army's bottom-line purpose is to kill people. "Right. And the chants, that was disconcerting to me. I mean, you could play the game and yell it, but you could see that your fellow trainees were really getting into it . . . like they were totally losing their whole notion of self, turning into these little automatons. It was kind of frightening to me, but I pushed it to the back of my head. It was a pretty easy game to play."

Before enlisting, he had become interested in Buddhism, and one day at Fort Benning, the sergeant was doing his rounds and found him in the lotus position, meditating. "There was a big to-do about that, and people found out and were asking questions -- 'What the heck were you doing?' -- and I had to explain myself."

In July, 2001, Mr. Hinzman finished training and was posted to Fort Bragg. He was assigned a two-bedroom sixplex house with a little yard, and Ms. Nguyen joined him.

She felt isolated at the base, home to 45,000 service people. She tried going to wives' meetings, but she didn't fit in. The other women were either patriotically proud of their husbands or afraid to voice dissent for fear of harming their husbands' careers.

In the first week of September, she learned that she was pregnant. On Sept. 11, she heard a news broadcast and knew immediately that life was going to change.

The young couple suddenly found themselves amid frenetic patriotism they didn't share. They were horrified by the jetliner attacks but intellectually (Mr. Hinzman read the left-tilting Nation and Noam Chomsky) saw them as a consequence of U.S. foreign policy.

They attended Quaker meetings in Fayetteville, where they found friends and a spiritual approach to violence in the world that, says Ms. Nguyen, "felt very right."

Mr. Fager recalls that Mr. Hinzman didn't rush into applying for conscientious objector (CO) status. "He had philosophical issues to work through." And Mr. Hinzman says he felt "conflicted." He liked his job. He was a good soldier. But he didn't want to kill.

Finally, on Aug. 2, 2002, he asked to be transferred, as a conscientious objector,to non-combat duties. He submitted a six-page eloquent, thoughtful, often moving explanation of how spiritually he had come to change his mind about using a gun. He wrote that he had entered the army "to be part of a force that was working to do good . . . to help stem the tide of senseless conflict. . . . Although I still have a great desire to eliminate injustice, I have come to the realization that killing will do nothing but perpetuate it. Thus, I cannot in good conscience continue to serve as a combatant in the Army."

The army lost the application.

Which happens a lot, says Mr. Fager, who now advises soldiers to apply by registered mail.

Mr. Hinzman was told on Halloween that his paperwork had never turned up. By then, his unit knew it was going to Afghanistan.

He reapplied immediately. And he went to Afghanistan, where he was assigned to kitchen duty for eight months until his application could be considered.

A hearing was held before Lieutenant Dennis Fitzgerald at Kandahar Airfield on April 2, 2003.

Three of his sergeants testified that he was a good soldier who "embodied Army Values." But one of them, First Sgt. James Carabello, said he couldn't understand how Mr. Hinzman, with all his training, could suddenly decide he was a conscientious objector.

"He fully knew what our mission is, and that is to do an Airborne Assault onto an objective and destroy the enemy. This did not become an issue until it was apparent we were going to deploy to Afghanistan."

That wasn't true. He had applied several weeks before learning about the deployment.

Even so, Lt. Fitzgerald rejected the application. His hearing was over 25 minutes after it began.

In a volunteer military, the presumption is that soldiers are not opposed to war, says Lt.-Col. Rick Mathis, a senior policy army chaplain at the Pentagon. The purpose of the hearing, he says, is to allow applicants "to rebut that reasonable presumption." And although army regulations do permit a successful CO applicant to be assigned to non-combat duties -- medic, clerk, cook -- in practice, Col. Mathis says, "I haven't seen it."

In other words, the army thinks that you're not reasonable if you become morally opposed to war after you've voluntarily enlisted. But if you make your case, you're discharged. And if you don't, you pick up your gun. There's no middle ground.

When Mr. Hinzman and his unit finally returned to Fort Bragg, he was made his company's armourer, looking after the weapons. Eight months later, on Dec. 20, he was told that his regiment was shipping out again, this time to Iraq.

Back in Rapid City for Christmas, he agonized over what to do, sharing his thoughts with family members, except for his highly patriotic grandfather. His mother and grandmother were sympathetic (his father is dead), and on Dec. 28, he decided to join the 1 per cent of U.S. soldiers -- about 4,000 a year, the Pentagon says -- who desert.

His wife felt relief. For Ms. Nguyen, the issue was simple: "I wanted Liam to have a father. The college money? It would be no good if you're dead."

The family returned to Fort Bragg, and on Jan. 2, Mr. Hinzman had the day off work. The couple cleared out their refrigerator. They packed up their books and stored them in the basement of Quaker House. They arranged for a civilian friend with a truck to pick up other belongings after they had left. They had already wired their savings to a bank in Rapid City. And they had looked up maps on the Internet to find the best route to Toronto

At 11 p.m., they bundled Liam into the 1996 Chevrolet Prism and drove into the night.

Jeffrey House, picked by Mr. Hinzman from a list of lawyers provided by the Quakers, says the first thing his new client asked was whether U.S. officials could cross the border and take him back.

They can't. They never could. But other things have changed. In the Vietnam era, the federal government never declared fugitives from the military to be refugees; it just didn't look too closely at how they got into the country or qualified as landed immigrants. Mr. Hinzman isn't likely to receive the same laissez-faire scrutiny.

The family moved into a basement apartment this week to await their hearing. Mr. Hinzman wants to be a bicycle courier once he can legally work. "He's very fit," Ms. Nguyen says.

Last week, three soldiers from a sister regiment sent to Iraq at the same time as the 504th were killed by a roadside bomb. A fourth was critically injured.

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040207/DESERTER07/TPComment/TopStories

[Jack Mehoff]

One word: COWARD. He doesn't live up to his expectation when he volunteer to sign his name under the dotted line. Thanks god he's just a few and very rare nut case in U.S. military




http://www.nastyburger.com/oath.jpg

[Ratamacue]

I have no sympathy for this guy. Don't wait until you've enlisted to "see the bigger picture." You sign the papers, you do your time. Going AWOL just shows that he is neither a man of his word nor the person I would want by my side in an infantry unit.

[Jack Mehoff]

Another thing i don't understand is why the hell he joined the infantry to get money for college? Why can't he enlisted into some technical job in the military and earn money for college? :|

[ArmedPacifist]

Part of joining the army is knowing that you are training to kill people, I really don't understand this guys case and why he didn't just go through is chain of command saying he wanted out rather than deserting is beyond me.

[Jack Mehoff]

Part of joining the army is knowing that you are training to kill people, I really don't understand this guys case and why he didn't just go through is chain of command saying he wanted out rather than deserting is beyond me.

Exactly! I think he made up that conscientious objector bull**** to cover his cowardess

[Skaman]

Perhaps he joined expecting to do his nation a great service by means of protecting its citizens, or helping those oppressed, neither of which is occurring in Iraq. I have sympathy for this man. He is not participating in the expectations of what ones military should be. A military force which ensures the protection of its territory, and moves forth to protect and serve across the globe under the mandate of protection of basic human rights. If I can draw on an a historical reference: Martin Luther, a Catholic who grew tired of corruption and indulgencies within the Church who broke away from this institution, which in-turn led to the protestant reformation and Lutheran church. Martin Luther was foremost a catholic yet took matters into his own hands when the Catholic Church was not satisfying or embodying the message the holy bible portrayed. When the Church deviated from its very ideals which it attempted to embody, Luther broke away, despite his obligations and association with the holy Catholic Church.


I understand the significance of a contract, yet I can only feel his moral anguish. He will be welcome in my nation.

[Skaman]

Part of joining the army is knowing that you are training to kill people, I really don't understand this guys case and why he didn't just go through is chain of command saying he wanted out rather than deserting is beyond me.


Apparently they would not let him. "unless he wanted to flip cheese-burgers for the rest of his life"

[Jack Mehoff]

duci,

Now you understand why people in uniform and politic don't mix. It's call PROFESSIONAL courtesy. If he wants to talk politic? Get the hell out and becomes a civilian.

[ArmedPacifist]

I think if he had a problem with the situation he should have gone through his chain of command to get it sorted out, deserting though, was a very bad move.

If they would not let him leave he should have talked to the media and our a political rep in his area.

[Jack Mehoff]

Part of joining the army is knowing that you are training to kill people, I really don't understand this guys case and why he didn't just go through is chain of command saying he wanted out rather than deserting is beyond me.


Apparently they would not let him. "unless he wanted to flip cheese-burgers for the rest of his life"

What do you mean they would not let him? :roll: There are 10000001 ways to get out of the military without deserting

[angry cow]

Holy Crap! What did he think the Airborne does? Sit around with they're thumbs up their asses and eat ice cream? He joined the most deployable division in the world and then left his brothers hanging when they needed him most. :fork: :fork: :fork:

[Skaman]

Part of joining the army is knowing that you are training to kill people, I really don't understand this guys case and why he didn't just go through is chain of command saying he wanted out rather than deserting is beyond me.


Apparently they would not let him. "unless he wanted to flip cheese-burgers for the rest of his life"

What do you mean they would not let him? :roll: There are 10000001 ways to get out of the military without deserting


In 2002, Mr. Hinzman asked the army to declare him a conscientious objector because he had arrived at the religious conviction that killing and war in any guise are wrong. His request was rejected.

He has in principle the basis for a refugee claim. He believes that the invasion of Iraq is an international human-rights violation in which he cannot morally take part; he says he will be subjected to persecution for this belief if sent back: imprisonment and dishonourable discharge, leading to discrimination in the job market. ("They were always telling us, 'You get dishonourable discharge and you're going to be flipping burgers your whole life.' ")

[Jack Mehoff]

He has in principle the basis for a refugee claim. He believes that the invasion of Iraq is an international human-rights violation in which he cannot morally take part; he says he will be subjected to persecution for this belief if sent back: imprisonment and dishonourable discharge, leading to discrimination in the job market. ("They were always telling us, 'You get dishonourable discharge and you're going to be flipping burgers your whole life.' ")


OMFG!! he actually believes everything the Army told him?

Let me get this fact straight. He afraid that will be flipping burgers for the rest of his life, and yet, he deserted? rofl Just ****ing genius

[Skaman]

He has in principle the basis for a refugee claim. He believes that the invasion of Iraq is an international human-rights violation in which he cannot morally take part; he says he will be subjected to persecution for this belief if sent back: imprisonment and dishonourable discharge, leading to discrimination in the job market. ("They were always telling us, 'You get dishonourable discharge and you're going to be flipping burgers your whole life.' ")


OMFG!! he actually believes everything the Army told him?

Let me get this fact straight. He afraid that will be flipping burgers for the rest of his life, and yet, he deserted? rofl Just f*** genius



Well, he can get persecuted by the yanks for his beliefs, or come to Canada and put his degree in social work to use and raise his family as he wanted. I am glad he decided to come here.

http://www.canadaka.net/cka/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/canada_patriotic/somecare.jpg

[Jack Mehoff]

He has in principle the basis for a refugee claim. He believes that the invasion of Iraq is an international human-rights violation in which he cannot morally take part; he says he will be subjected to persecution for this belief if sent back: imprisonment and dishonourable discharge, leading to discrimination in the job market. ("They were always telling us, 'You get dishonourable discharge and you're going to be flipping burgers your whole life.' ")


OMFG!! he actually believes everything the Army told him?

Let me get this fact straight. He afraid that will be flipping burgers for the rest of his life, and yet, he deserted? rofl Just f*** genius




Well, he can get persecuted by the yanks for his beliefs, or come to Canada and put his degree in social work to use and raise his family as he wanted. I am glad he decided to come here.

http://www.canadaka.net/cka/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/canada_patriotic/somecare.jpg

WTF? :petting: Since when was the last time U.S. military is a democracy? He DID NOT get persecuted for his beliefs. He got persecuted because he doesn't have any honor to live up to his expectation and do his job. Remember, this is a VOLUNTEER military


http://www.nastyburger.com/oath.jpg

[Midtown]

Pussy

[Spooky]

I think it's entirely possible that he had a change of heart over the last 3 years and I sympathize if that's the case, however it does seem silly to join the paratroopers. Why not join the Navy and get valuable technicaly skills while sitting safely on a boat?

Something about his story seems flavored with anti-war propaganda. It doesn't all add up.

[MetalBoy]

The Enlistment Oath should also have a clause stating:

" I will not read the political anti-American bull**** put forth by intellectual cowards such as Noam Chomsky. If I find another comrade reading aforementioned bull**** I shall kick his ass. I recognize this is my duty."

[Sixgun Symphony]

So the Left-Libs are supporting the traitors, typical.

Just gotta put a bounty on his head and some enterprising Canadians will stuff him in a trunk and drive him to the border. It is likely that this turd will be sent to Leavenworth, but we can always hope that the brass will revive some military traditions and put him in front of a firing squad.

[Skaman]

So the Left-Libs are supporting the traitors, typical.

Just gotta put a bounty on his head and some enterprising Canadians will bring him back for us. It is likely that he will be sent to Leavenworth, but we can always hope for a firing squad.

wow. :|

[Roger Rabbit]

I hope you all know about the bravery and sacrafices of conciencious objectors in World War 1. In a nutshell there were some and they were very badly treated by the army, however accepted this and then went to the Western Front as medics where they saved lives and often died in heroic circumstances i.e. trying to save someones life. They didnt carry any weapons either so they were totally defenceless. Just because your a conciencious objector then it does not make you a coward.

[mocking_loudly_died]

I'm a coward.

I pushed women and children out of the way when the Titanic was sinking.

Boy was that a crappy boat.

[Schwabo Elite]

I am alittle torn...

On the one hand he vowed an oath, gave his word and broke it. Something intollerable that deserves punishment in every society.

On the other hand he left on behalf of his ideals, because he thought that the war was against international law and that he could not participate in an act of injustice like this. Hypothetical spoken.
The point about this last thing is that it remembers me of the German past. Everyone who sais politics and military don't mix didn't learn from the past. In Germany our officers thought the same, often descending of old European aristrocracy. Ultimately the only people who could have stopped Hitler were to idle and to aristo to get their arse up and defend their country and ideals, even if this would make them break their word.
It is always the same dilemma.


The Enlistment Oath should also have a clause stating:

" I will not read the political anti-American bull**** put forth by intellectual cowards such as Noam Chomsky. If I find another comrade reading aforementioned bull**** I shall kick his ass. I recognize this is my duty."

In the past month, in this board alone, I have met more US citizens with an attitude that would fit a decent fanatic, be it right or left extremisms, better than in my whole life in Europe. It is astonishing how you kick your own rights with your feet and try to get rid of them. In this senseless sentence I see the strong will to thrive for a new dictator. Let this be a warning to you Tinboy: "Remember the Alamo! Europe already learned what it means to put aside human rights. Your country does not know tha pain and shame that occupation and discrimination bring forth. At least not if you are WASP."

SE

[Shake n Bake]

This story must hit home really hard..


SO.. Where are YOU gonna hide if you're ever called up for war, ducimus???

[Midav]

I don't feel sorry for the guy.

Maybe, just maybe had there been a draft, I could have pitty on the guy.

However, he volunteered to serve in the military. That's all that needs to be said.

[Royal]

Just to surprise the rednecks;

You swear the oath and sign on the dotted line, you go. Just 'cos you bottled out and tried to worm your way out a few weeks before deployment is no excuse.

OTOH I certainly wouldn't want him serving under me. Leavenworth fits the bill. There are too many in the US armed forces who joined for the GI Bill benefits with no thought of the trade they we're taking up.

[George W. Bush]

This is a fine example of the effemination of this country. God help us.

[Tengu]

If there is one thing in this world that i hate it's a coward.
After swearing the oath and then piss on it he should be treated in the worst possible way.

[Ballistic]

Coward. He signed up, he volunteered, if he had ANY clue what he was doing in the first place he wouldnt have joined a unit like the 82nd or the Army at all for that matter.


In 2002, Mr. Hinzman asked the army to declare him a conscientious objector because he had arrived at the religious conviction that killing and war in any guise are wrong. His request was rejected.

I think of myself as semi religious, but the crap this guy is spouting is utter rubbish. War in any guise is wrong ?? So WW2 was wrong ? Korea was wrong ? Gulf War was wrong ? Protecting and liberating countries and peoples of any of the nations involved in above conflicts was wrong ? Is this guys head screwed on ? What a sanctimonious moron. Killing is wrong yes, but killing to defend and save others from those that would kill them is an unfortunate necessity.


At first, he liked the army. He signed up for a paratroop regiment. He liked the camaraderie. He liked the idea of free housing and subsidized groceries. "Shooting rockets and machine guns and jumping out of planes, it's all fun until you start to think about the bigger picture and what it's all about."

Oh so now, all of a sudden when it seems you MAY go to war the camaraderie doesnt add up to diddly squat ? The guy is a backstabbing a'hole. Yeah shooting guns is fun, so is jumping out of planes, he could have done all that as a civvie like me. But he had to join the Army and do those things, and now when it looked like he had to actually use them against an enemy he couldnt bring himself to do it ?? Does he realise he had been training to do just that ? Kill ?


Perhaps he joined expecting to do his nation a great service by means of protecting its citizens, or helping those oppressed, neither of which is occurring in Iraq. I have sympathy for this man. He is not participating in the expectations of what ones military should be. A military force which ensures the protection of its territory, and moves forth to protect and serve across the globe under the mandate of protection of basic human rights.

No, by the sounds of it he joined for free housing and subsidised groceries and the chance to shoot guns and rockets at paper targets. So ridding Afghanistan of the Taliban, an oppressive regime that fully supported terrorism was wrong ? Removing Saddam aswell was wrong ? Did he care to take a look at the human rights violations of those countries he would be liberating ?


He believes that the invasion of Iraq is an international human-rights violation in which he cannot morally take part

Oh, ok, so leaving Saddam in power was a better alternative ? 30 years of treating the people under him like the scum he thought they were ? Furnishing his homes with gold plated everything while some poor bugger down the road has no alternative but to drink sewer water ? That is no alternative, and there was no other peaceful means of removing that mongrel.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

There are many versions of that quote, but they all mean the same. The only people making Iraq the dangerous place it is, is the Saddam loyalists and terrorists doing everything they can to make the situation as terrible as possible for everyone. The only people they are hurting are the civilians and the rebuilding process.

I got a bit angry there. Sorry for the language (edited). But thats my opinion, I may ofcourse be wrong, buts that how I see it. The Army could have looked into his case a bit more but that still doesnt excuse him for anything he's done.

[Jack Mehoff]

I hope you all know about the bravery and sacrafices of conciencious objectors in World War 1. In a nutshell there were some and they were very badly treated by the army, however accepted this and then went to the Western Front as medics where they saved lives and often died in heroic circumstances i.e. trying to save someones life. They didnt carry any weapons either so they were totally defenceless. Just because your a conciencious objector then it does not make you a coward.

1)Those guys in WW1 were VOLUNTEERS?
2)They VOLUNTEER to be in the infantry?



End of discussion

[BlackRain]

I don't know if the Canadians realize this but assisting a military deserter has legal implications:


18 USC Section 1381 involves “enticing desertion and harboring deserters” and 18 USC Section 2387 pertains to those who “interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States.”

Violation of Section 1381 entails “fines under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.” Those that violate Section 2387 “shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.”


Long Version

18 USC (United States Code) Section 1381. Enticing desertion and harboring deserters, Whoever entices or procures, or attempts or endeavors to entice or procure any person in the Armed Forces of the United States, or who has been recruited for service therein, to desert therefrom, or aids any such person in deserting or in attempting to desert from such service; or Whoever harbors, conceals, protects, or assists any such person who may have deserted from such service, knowing him to have deserted therefrom, or refuses to give up and deliver such person on the demand of any officer authorized to receive him - Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

Section 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally (a) Whoever, with intent to interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States:
(1) advises, counsels, urges, or in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States; or
(2) distributes or attempts to distribute any written or printed matter which advises, counsels, or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
(b) For the purposes of this section, the term "military or naval forces of the United States" includes the Army of the United States, the Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, Naval Reserve, Marine Corps Reserve, and Coast Guard Reserve of the United States; and, when any merchant vessel is commissioned in the Navy or is in the service of the Army or the Navy, includes the master, officers, and crew of such vessel.
Section 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally
(a) Whoever, with intent to interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States:
(1) advises, counsels, urges, or in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States; or
(2) distributes or attempts to distribute any written or printed matter which advises, counsels, or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
(b) For the purposes of this section, the term "military or naval forces of the United States" includes the Army of the United States, the Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, Naval Reserve, Marine Corps Reserve, and Coast Guard Reserve of the United States; and, when any merchant vessel is commissioned in the Navy or is in the service of the Army or the Navy, includes the master, officers, and crew of such vessel.

Canadian Military Law: For those supporting Deserters


National Defence Act
PART III CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE
DIVISION 2 SERVICE OFFENCES AND PUNISHMENTS
Desertion
Connivance at desertion
89. Every person who

(a) being aware of the desertion or intended desertion of a person from any of Her Majesty's Forces, does not without reasonable excuse inform his superior officer forthwith, or

(b) fails to take any steps in his power to cause the apprehension of a person whom he knows, or has reasonable grounds to believe, to be a deserter,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment.

R.S., c. N-4, s. 79.


If any those Canadians that render aid or assistance cross the border into the USA, they could be arrested and held. This information is shared with the RCMP and border control. Canadian military members that advocate desertion can be held accountable as well under the Canadian National Defence Act . A word to the wise, ducimus19.
.

[parker82nd]

One word, PUSSY. The mother ****er didnt wanna wanna go because he was afraid of combat. Simple as that. It had nothing to do with his bull**** beliefs or killing people. He joined with the 82nd, an elite group if I say so myself, who do KILL in combet. He was just a pussy and I can not believe that a few of you cant see that

[Nondescript]

Can I take that cowards place.

I personally can't understand why he would desert, he must have known what he was signing up for if he ended up in a unit like the 82nd Airborne. I can't understand why he would leave his buddies, has he no sense if loyalty. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he have just one year left on his contract, one freakin year. When I turn on the TV and see the headlines saying for example two US Soldiers killed by roadside bomb and then hear about **** like this, it makes me see red.

I hope that "man" can never look at himself in a mirror ever again, f***ing coward.

[mustamato]

He should come to Sweden, we´ll take care of them. He can be a teacher
and tell our children what people like you think and say. It will be a very
moving moment for them when they realize how primitive you all are.

Who the fokk will choose Bush before his own kid? You obviously :|


In the past month, in this board alone, I have met more US citizens with an attitude that would fit a decent fanatic, be it right or left extremisms, better than in my whole life in Europe.

Word. I would actually say that most of the americans in this forum, if they
were living in Sweden would be watched by our security police very closely,
since they would be classified as extremists, and extremists are often capable
of terrorist acts as well. Such as thinking that pacifistic family fathers should
be executed. Some sick ****. Never come here americans, stay away.

[duck]

Funny, the Swedes on this forum are proud that their SSG managed to shoot a few ragtag African rebels and at the same time act as they were the conscience of the World. Dubya is elected Commander-in-Chief and the decision to go to war went through the legislative chambers, can't be much more democratic than that. That has nothing to do with moral issues.

[AFACadet]

That guy needs to be in front of a fireing squad.


--insert Mill's quote here




Anyway:


He should come to Sweden, we´ll take care of them. He can be a teacher
and tell our children what people like you think and say. It will be a very
moving moment for them when they realize how primitive you all are.

READ MY SIG :backhand:

[Jack Mehoff]

musthaveforgotmymedication is babbling something


I guess he's trying to tell me that people should not have any honor to live up to their expectation AND DO THEIR ****ING JOB THAT THEY VOLUNTEER, and desertion is an honor thing to do.

[Jack Mehoff]

Commander: "We are going to spend 30 days in the field with 100 degrees temperature to train for war."

Private MustaStupid: "No, I don't want to because my ****** hurts and i can't stand the heat."

[gilgoul]

By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, February 7, 2004 - Page F3


On a snowbound afternoon 955 kilometres north of where the U.S. Army says he should be, Private First Class Hinzman, Jeremy D., No. 503946779, is sitting in the sunroom of the rambling old mansion owned by Toronto's pacifist Quakers. He is describing the chants he learned in basic training.

"You're always walking around in formation. And you have this [marching] chant: 'We're trained to kill, and kill we will.' And during bayonet training, the instructors ask this question, 'What makes the grass grow?' and everyone chants in response, 'Blood, blood, blood.' "

The U.S. Army wants him in Fort Bragg, N.C., home of the 82nd Airborne Division, "America's Guard of Honor." But this week Mr. Hinzman, 25, passed the 30-day limit for being absent without leave. He officially became a deserter.

Just before midnight on Jan. 2, he and his wife, Nga Nguyen, 31, quietly loaded their 21-month-old son, Liam, and a few belongings into their 1996 Chevrolet Prism and disappeared into the darkness for a 17-hour drive to the Canadian border. They left just before his unit -- the second battalion of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment -- was shipped overseas.

As a result, Mr. Hinzman is believed to be the first U.S. soldier to apply for refugee status in Canada after refusing combat duty in Iraq -- the first echo of the 12,000 deserters and 20,000 draft resisters who came north more than 30 years ago to escape the Vietnam War.

In 2002, Mr. Hinzman asked the army to declare him a conscientious objector because he had arrived at the religious conviction that killing and war in any guise are wrong. His request was rejected.

He has in principle the basis for a refugee claim. He believes that the invasion of Iraq is an international human-rights violation in which he cannot morally take part; he says he will be subjected to persecution for this belief if sent back: imprisonment and dishonourable discharge, leading to discrimination in the job market. ("They were always telling us, 'You get dishonourable discharge and you're going to be flipping burgers your whole life.' ")

There is a precedent of sorts. Canada accepted an Iranian conscript who said he had deserted thinking his country was going to use chemical weapons.

In practice, however, the odds that Mr. Hinzman will be declared a refugee are not robust. "For Americans of any sort," says University of Toronto law professor Audrey Macklin, an expert on refugee law, "the chances are low. Extremely low. Very rare." As in, there may be a couple of favourable decisions by the Immigration and Refugee Board that have escaped notice.

Chuck Fager is executive director of Quaker House in Fayetteville, the city bordering Fort Bragg. Last year, his counsellors received 6,000 calls from troubled soldiers. He says Mr. Hinzman fits the profile of today's recruits: undereducated people from small-town and rural America with few employment opportunities who join up for the money.

Both Mr. Hinzman and his wife grew up in Rapid City, S.D., population 62,000, in the shadow of Mount Rushmore. After high school, he decided not go to college because he was afraid of saddling himself with student debt and "starting a whole cycle of middle-class existence." He went to work as a baker.

Ms. Nguyen earned an undergraduate social-work degree from the University of South Dakota and found a job working with disadvantaged preschool children. She met her future husband through a mutual acquaintance and fell in love.

They moved to Boston in 2000 to experience life in a big city. Ms. Nguyen, burned out from social work, found a job in a health-food store. Mr. Hinzman took whatever employment he could find.

They wanted to start a family, but Mr. Hinzman felt his life was going nowhere and hit on the idea of joining the army. If he served a four-year stint, the military would give him $50,000 he could use for college. Ms. Nguyen tried to talk him out of it. "I could see his thinking . . . but the military ! I finally said, 'You decide, and I'll support you.' "

He enlisted on Jan. 17, 2001, leaving Ms. Nguyen -- they had married a few weeks earlier -- in Boston while he did his basic training at Fort Benning in Georgia.

At first, he liked the army. He signed up for a paratroop regiment. He liked the camaraderie. He liked the idea of free housing and subsidized groceries. "Shooting rockets and machine guns and jumping out of planes, it's all fun until you start to think about the bigger picture and what it's all about."

Meaning an army's bottom-line purpose is to kill people. "Right. And the chants, that was disconcerting to me. I mean, you could play the game and yell it, but you could see that your fellow trainees were really getting into it . . . like they were totally losing their whole notion of self, turning into these little automatons. It was kind of frightening to me, but I pushed it to the back of my head. It was a pretty easy game to play."

Before enlisting, he had become interested in Buddhism, and one day at Fort Benning, the sergeant was doing his rounds and found him in the lotus position, meditating. "There was a big to-do about that, and people found out and were asking questions -- 'What the heck were you doing?' -- and I had to explain myself."

In July, 2001, Mr. Hinzman finished training and was posted to Fort Bragg. He was assigned a two-bedroom sixplex house with a little yard, and Ms. Nguyen joined him.

She felt isolated at the base, home to 45,000 service people. She tried going to wives' meetings, but she didn't fit in. The other women were either patriotically proud of their husbands or afraid to voice dissent for fear of harming their husbands' careers.

In the first week of September, she learned that she was pregnant. On Sept. 11, she heard a news broadcast and knew immediately that life was going to change.

The young couple suddenly found themselves amid frenetic patriotism they didn't share. They were horrified by the jetliner attacks but intellectually (Mr. Hinzman read the left-tilting Nation and Noam Chomsky) saw them as a consequence of U.S. foreign policy.

They attended Quaker meetings in Fayetteville, where they found friends and a spiritual approach to violence in the world that, says Ms. Nguyen, "felt very right."

Mr. Fager recalls that Mr. Hinzman didn't rush into applying for conscientious objector (CO) status. "He had philosophical issues to work through." And Mr. Hinzman says he felt "conflicted." He liked his job. He was a good soldier. But he didn't want to kill.

Finally, on Aug. 2, 2002, he asked to be transferred, as a conscientious objector,to non-combat duties. He submitted a six-page eloquent, thoughtful, often moving explanation of how spiritually he had come to change his mind about using a gun. He wrote that he had entered the army "to be part of a force that was working to do good . . . to help stem the tide of senseless conflict. . . . Although I still have a great desire to eliminate injustice, I have come to the realization that killing will do nothing but perpetuate it. Thus, I cannot in good conscience continue to serve as a combatant in the Army."

The army lost the application.

Which happens a lot, says Mr. Fager, who now advises soldiers to apply by registered mail.

Mr. Hinzman was told on Halloween that his paperwork had never turned up. By then, his unit knew it was going to Afghanistan.

He reapplied immediately. And he went to Afghanistan, where he was assigned to kitchen duty for eight months until his application could be considered.

A hearing was held before Lieutenant Dennis Fitzgerald at Kandahar Airfield on April 2, 2003.

Three of his sergeants testified that he was a good soldier who "embodied Army Values." But one of them, First Sgt. James Carabello, said he couldn't understand how Mr. Hinzman, with all his training, could suddenly decide he was a conscientious objector.

"He fully knew what our mission is, and that is to do an Airborne Assault onto an objective and destroy the enemy. This did not become an issue until it was apparent we were going to deploy to Afghanistan."

That wasn't true. He had applied several weeks before learning about the deployment.

Even so, Lt. Fitzgerald rejected the application. His hearing was over 25 minutes after it began.

In a volunteer military, the presumption is that soldiers are not opposed to war, says Lt.-Col. Rick Mathis, a senior policy army chaplain at the Pentagon. The purpose of the hearing, he says, is to allow applicants "to rebut that reasonable presumption." And although army regulations do permit a successful CO applicant to be assigned to non-combat duties -- medic, clerk, cook -- in practice, Col. Mathis says, "I haven't seen it."

In other words, the army thinks that you're not reasonable if you become morally opposed to war after you've voluntarily enlisted. But if you make your case, you're discharged. And if you don't, you pick up your gun. There's no middle ground.

When Mr. Hinzman and his unit finally returned to Fort Bragg, he was made his company's armourer, looking after the weapons. Eight months later, on Dec. 20, he was told that his regiment was shipping out again, this time to Iraq.

Back in Rapid City for Christmas, he agonized over what to do, sharing his thoughts with family members, except for his highly patriotic grandfather. His mother and grandmother were sympathetic (his father is dead), and on Dec. 28, he decided to join the 1 per cent of U.S. soldiers -- about 4,000 a year, the Pentagon says -- who desert.

His wife felt relief. For Ms. Nguyen, the issue was simple: "I wanted Liam to have a father. The college money? It would be no good if you're dead."

The family returned to Fort Bragg, and on Jan. 2, Mr. Hinzman had the day off work. The couple cleared out their refrigerator. They packed up their books and stored them in the basement of Quaker House. They arranged for a civilian friend with a truck to pick up other belongings after they had left. They had already wired their savings to a bank in Rapid City. And they had looked up maps on the Internet to find the best route to Toronto

At 11 p.m., they bundled Liam into the 1996 Chevrolet Prism and drove into the night.

Jeffrey House, picked by Mr. Hinzman from a list of lawyers provided by the Quakers, says the first thing his new client asked was whether U.S. officials could cross the border and take him back.

They can't. They never could. But other things have changed. In the Vietnam era, the federal government never declared fugitives from the military to be refugees; it just didn't look too closely at how they got into the country or qualified as landed immigrants. Mr. Hinzman isn't likely to receive the same laissez-faire scrutiny.

The family moved into a basement apartment this week to await their hearing. Mr. Hinzman wants to be a bicycle courier once he can legally work. "He's very fit," Ms. Nguyen says.

Last week, three soldiers from a sister regiment sent to Iraq at the same time as the 504th were killed by a roadside bomb. A fourth was critically injured.

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/TP



andStory/LAC/20040207/DESERTER07/TPComment/TopStories


Some are really "balsy" to dare to give this kind of reason to explain their cowardise, or the fact that, damn, now it`s for real, momy i`m scared. and their lack of comradery and solidarity with their fellow platoon members.
The guy is a disgrace, not even worth of military prison, I m split between putting him in jail or exposing him to the stare of the relatives of those who did accomplish their duty, even at the supreme cost..

[Jack Mehoff]

He should come to Sweden, we´ll take care of them. He can be a teacher
and tell our children what people like you think and say. It will be a very
moving moment for them when they realize how primitive you all are.

Who the fokk will choose Bush before his own kid? You obviously :|


In the past month, in this board alone, I have met more US citizens with an attitude that would fit a decent fanatic, be it right or left extremisms, better than in my whole life in Europe.

Word. I would actually say that most of the americans in this forum, if they
were living in Sweden would be watched by our security police very closely,
since they would be classified as extremists, and extremists are often capable
of terrorist acts as well. Such as thinking that pacifistic family fathers should
be executed. Some sick ****. Never come here americans, stay away.

Really? I'll take a trip to Sweden sometime in the future and we will see what you are going to do about it

[Trigger]

A story about a coward.
Posted by a coward.
Defended by cowards.

You can have him ducimus19. You bring disgrace to the men and women who have died defending your country in the past, and you know nothing of honor, duty, or brotherhood.

[Nondescript]

He should come to Sweden, we´ll take care of them. He can be a teacher
and tell our children what people like you think and say. It will be a very
moving moment for them when they realize how primitive you all are.

Who the fokk will choose Bush before his own kid? You obviously :|


In the past month, in this board alone, I have met more US citizens with an attitude that would fit a decent fanatic, be it right or left extremisms, better than in my whole life in Europe.

Word. I would actually say that most of the americans in this forum, if they
were living in Sweden would be watched by our security police very closely,
since they would be classified as extremists, and extremists are often capable
of terrorist acts as well. Such as thinking that pacifistic family fathers should
be executed. Some sick ****. Never come here americans, stay away.

Really? I'll take a trip to Sweden sometime in the future and we will see what you are going to do about it

Just say when and I'll show you around, if you'd like I can introduce you to some of the cowards I have to put up with every day.

[Maj C]

Reminds of when I was a Series Cmdr and a kid refused to train when we started the rifle range - said he couldn't shoot at human silhouettes etc. We were already half way through training and he decided he finally realized he was a C.O. Tried to give him the Sgt York story but he didn't buy it...oh well - off to the shrink and out the door. I was really bummed because we were sure he could set the MCRD record for 3 miles - he ran sub 14:30!

It's frustrating when people void their oath and do it but in the long run we're better off letting them go then making martyr's out of them. If this guy wants to live in Canada so be it...if he really believes those stories about not being able to find a job then he probably deserves to flip burgers for the rest of his life. It's not that big a deal...it's a free country.

I like Sweden - IKEA is an awesome place for crappy furniture that breaks easy but looks cool. :) and Becker movies are pretty good. I gave a Swedish Marine LtCol a tour of MCRD once and he commented about how they have co-ed everything including showers. Maybe that wouldn't be so bad after all!

[Dennis G]

A story about a coward.
Posted by a coward.
Defended by cowards.

You can have him ducimus19. You bring disgrace to the men and women who have died defending your country in the past, and you know nothing of honor, duty, or brotherhood.

Ahmen to that. ducimus you need to eat **** and die

[FallenAngel]

...and to think there were times when they would just take this coward out back and shoot him.

Now everyone has a goddamn lawyer... :roll:

[usa320]

Im sick of hearing about people desrting their armies- not only here, but around the world. YOU SIGNED UP TO FIGHT A WAR. When your asked to do so and refuse, not only are you failing to do your duty, that you swore by oath to uphold, but your are letting down your comrades and your country.

Frankly, i think we should just let him stay in Canada. Do we really want someone fighting for us who doesnt want to?

[Roger Rabbit]

Just like to clarify my position on this before i get branded a coward. I was not commenting on this guy, what i actually meant was that people should not be judging all conciencious objectors as cowards as some have proved that not to be the case.

My views on this guy, well i haven't served for three years in any military organisation so i can't really comment. I would say however that from what i've read from news sites then it appears he has definately done the wrong thing in deserting and should have looked at another way of getting out of the military once he found it was not the right job for him.

[HappyCat]

He will be welcome in my nation.


yeah its a shame

[Scrim]

What happened to the good old days when they simply shot deserters? Seriously?

[German_American]

Hmmmm?? the Americans are the extremist? Why becasue we want this coward to be put in front of a firing squad for desertion. I think you are the extreemist with your wild left wing thinking. You are the same guy who wouldnt mind if your childrens teacher was a homo****** molester because you don't want to offend him. The Americans on this forum tend to be more to the right because we don't like when people leave our military beacause they are cowards and don't want our children to think terroist are freedom fighters who are the good guys. We dont want them to grow up to have f***** up views like you and sing songs to the terroist instead of blowing there friggn heads off. If that makes me an extremist then so be it, I am.

[Skaman]

A story about a coward.
Posted by a coward.
Defended by cowards.

You can have him ducimus19. You bring disgrace to the men and women who have died defending your country in the past, and you know nothing of honor, duty, or brotherhood.

Strong worrds.

[Vance]

Sadly they're true.

[Skaman]

This lunacy on this forum is absolutely fanatical, I can’t believe half the posts I am reading, it’s absolutely appalling. Do any of you posses any sort of moral fabric whatsoever? The mentality of these individuals uttering threats, verbally abusive, claims of cowardness, and callous commendation. This man served, he is not doing what he expected to be doing.

Are the Axis soldiers of the Second World War cowards for refusing to fight in an unjust war and in-turn deserting their posts? Are the Iraqi's who abandoned their posts by the thousands in the Gulf war cowards? What of the American GI’s who refused to fight in Vietnam, are they cowards? Do they deserve to be penalized for their thread of moral fabric?


Perhaps he joined expecting to do his nation a great service by means of protecting its citizens, or helping those oppressed, neither of which is occurring in Iraq. I have sympathy for this man. He is not participating in the expectations of what ones military should be. A military force which ensures the protection of its territory, and moves forth to protect and serve across the globe under the mandate of protection of basic human rights. If I can draw on an a historical reference: Martin Luther, a Catholic who grew tired of corruption and indulgencies within the Church who broke away from this institution, which in-turn led to the protestant reformation and Lutheran church. Martin Luther was foremost a catholic yet took matters into his own hands when the Catholic Church was not satisfying or embodying the message the holy bible portrayed. When the Church deviated from its very ideals which it attempted to embody, Luther broke away, despite his obligations and association with the holy Catholic Church.


I understand the significance of a contract, yet I can only feel his moral anguish. He will be welcome in my nation.

[ArmedPacifist]

I think this guy went about his actions the wrong way and possibly had some kind of moral turn around, but I think a country like the United States (and it's citizens for that matter) should be less trigger happy about wanting to put a bullet in his head.

[TriggerPuller]

Desertion= Firing Squad!!! If that is too harsh for our left wing brethern here then 25 years HARD labor!!

TP

[Skaman]

Sadly they're true.

I know nothing of honor brotherhood or duty?

Don’t lecture me on integrity as you are an individual who desecrated the 911 atrocities with boorish humor.

Trigger why you are warping these young kids’ heads with outlandish and spurious bull**** I do not know. Think what you are doing when you formulate your post. The ramifications of your comments will have after-affects despite this being ONLY a text forum. This is truly sad. This goes for others as well who are so quick to jump on a service member of any nation.

[Skaman]

Desertion= Firing Squad!!! If that is too harsh for our left wing brethern here then 25 years HARD labor!!

TP


My god....

[mustamato]

Just a question. Anyone of you extremists in here that could actually yourself
cut the throat of this pacifistic father?

If not, well, then you are just full of bull****.

[German_American]

Sorry we all did not go to hippy school

[ArmedPacifist]

Sorry we all did not go to hippy school

Must be born sadistic then, jesus, sure he deserted and he should be punished for violating his oath, but killing him won't fix anything but your thirst for blood.

Soldiers do not murder....

[mustamato]

Sorry we all did not go to hippy school

Ok so you are saying that you could actually in cold blood kill him yourself? Cut his throat off in front of his kid and his wife while getting a orgasm and shouting "this is for you heroes out there!!!!"?

And then you differ from the Chechens cutting of the throat of russian soldiers in which way? Or the nazi ancestors I guess you are proud off?

[Trigger]

This lunacy blah blah blah... This man served, he is not doing what he expected to be doing.


Perhaps he joined expecting to do his nation a great service by means of protecting its citizens, or helping those oppressed, neither of which is occurring in Iraq. I have sympathy for this man. He is not participating in the expectations of what ones military should be. A military force which ensures the protection of its territory, and moves forth to protect and serve across the globe under the mandate of protection of basic human rights.

Perhaps a different contract was placed before him that said 'You are different. You are special. You don't have to follow the orders that are given' - nah. Perhaps he swore a different oath than the other 2 million American Servicemen and women - nah. Perhaps he's just simply a coward and couldn't believe it when he actually had to follow a lawful order from his commander in chief before he could collect his 50,000 dollars. - yah!

[NcDeuce]

Dammit ducimus, you spelled words wrong.


A story about a coward.
Posted by a coward.
Defended by cowards.

You can have him ducimus19. You bring disgrace to the men and women who have died defending your country in the past, and you know nothing of honor, duty, or brotherhood.

This pretty much sums it up. \]

You volunteered to defend the constitution and obey the orders of the Commander in Chief. No one made you sign that dotted line. If you change your mind, keep your mouth shut and complete your obligated duty. :fork:

[duck]

Mustamato:

What if it would happen in your squad in wartime? Remember it's a war out there.

[German_American]

You guys fail to realize in the manner he breached his contract, the penalty is death. Doesn't matter who does it. I say I would but who knows maybe I can't. Who said we were slitting his throat in front of his kid.

[Trigger]

Sadly they're true.

I know nothing of honor brotherhood or duty?

Don’t lecture me on integrity as you are an individual who desecrated the 911 atrocities with boorish humor.

Trigger why you are warping these young kids’ heads with outlandish and spurious bull**** I do not know. Think what you are doing when you formulate your post. The ramifications of your comments will have after-affects despite this being ONLY a text forum. This is truly sad. This goes for others as well who are so quick to jump on a service member of any nation.
Formulate this. :slap:

I hope they do have ramifications. Like communicating the fact that you are out of your mind, and having you finally realize it.

[Midav]

He signs an oath after volunteering in the Army. The Army, actually, the US armed forces in general, have been sent to a lot of hot spots over the past decade now, so, he knew the risk he was taking.

Then the guy goes to the 82nd because he wants to be a paratrooper...
umm ok.

Yet, it comes down to it, and he wusses out.

I'm not for shooting the guy. He should be evaluated if he has a brain or not.

I'm sorry, but this guy is stupid.

Look at it, people. He was not forced to join the military. Then, he wants to join a unit that's regularly sent to hot spots.

Either this man is behind the times, or he's very stupid.

[Skaman]

Sadly they're true.

I know nothing of honor brotherhood or duty?

Don’t lecture me on integrity as you are an individual who desecrated the 911 atrocities with boorish humor.

Trigger why you are warping these young kids’ heads with outlandish and spurious bull**** I do not know. Think what you are doing when you formulate your post. The ramifications of your comments will have after-affects despite this being ONLY a text forum. This is truly sad. This goes for others as well who are so quick to jump on a service member of any nation.
Formulate this. :slap:

I hope they do have ramifications. Like communicating the fact that you are out of your mind, and having you finally realize it.


I dont know if I should laugh, cry or pity you. Maybe all three. woot

[Sixgun Symphony]

Reading mustamato's posts it reminds me of a slang term used by Finns to describe the men of Sweden as being like effeminate homo******s.

I just can't remember what the word is. Any Finns here? If so, then send me a personal message. I would like to use it here.

[mustamato]

You guys fail to realize in the manner he breached his contract, the penalty is death. Doesn't matter who does it. I say I would but who knows maybe I can't. Who said we were slitting his throat in front of his kid.

"Mein ehre ist treue" eh?

[German_American]

[/quote]Or the nazi ancestors I guess you are proud off?


Whoa what the **** you asshole. Just because I'm German doesnt ****ing mean Im a NAZI. **** you my grandfather and my great uncles landed on Normandy and fought across Europe helping to liberate those countrys that were oppressed by them. Much thanks they get for doing that. You are such a ****ing bastard. I hope you rot in hell you mother ****er. That commie country your in you piece of ****. I am an American and will die an American believing in its values and what it stands for. I would go and fight any enemy that comes knocking at our door like my ancestors did. GO **** YOURSELF YOU ****ING COMMIE!

[NcDeuce]

He signs an oath after volunteering in the Army. The Army, actually, the US armed forces in general, have been sent to a lot of hot spots over the past decade now, so, he knew the risk he was taking.

Then the guy goes to the 82nd because he wants to be a paratrooper...
umm ok.

Yet, it comes down to it, and he wusses out.

I'm not for shooting the guy. He should be evaluated if he has a brain or not.

I'm sorry, but this guy is stupid.

Look at it, people. He was not forced to join the military. Then, he wants to join a unit that's regularly sent to hot spots.

Either this man is behind the times, or he's very stupid.

^ Word...he's a fooking idiot.


You volunteered to defend the constitution and obey the orders of the Commander in Chief. No one made you sign that dotted line.

[Midav]

"Dieser mann hat keine Ehre.

Ehr hatte eine freie Wahl um ins Militaer zu gehen."

He has no honor. He had a free option to go into the military.

[Uninen]

You guys fail to realize in the manner he breached his contract, the penalty is death.

Thats the ****ing problem with you 'Americans', your always killing everybody, including your own citizens..

:oops:

[German_American]

Thats the f*** problem with you 'Americans', your always killing everybody, including your own citizens..


Thats our problem. Ohh sorry I know the Russians never did that and still dont. Yes Americans kill there own people by the millions every year. We send them to our own special gulags to. We have them in Alaska you ever hear of them. We got the idea from Stalin.

[NcDeuce]

You guys fail to realize in the manner he breached his contract, the penalty is death.

Thats the f*** problem with you 'Americans', your always killing everybody, including your own citizens..

:oops:

:cantbeli:

[ArmedPacifist]

Thats the f*** problem with you 'Americans', your always killing everybody, including your own citizens..


Thats our problem. Ohh sorry I know the Russians never did that and still dont. Yes Americans kill there own people by the millions every year. We send them to our own special gulags to. We have them in Alaska you ever hear of them. We got the idea from Stalin.

What the....

[German_American]

yeah I ****ed up on the quote it was fast typing. I was being sarcastic becasue he said Americans kill everyone and our own people.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The deserter is a traitor. Traitors are worse than enemies and should be shot or hanged.

The Euro-weenies don't like it? Even better.

[German_American]

sixgun we are suppose to embrace our enemys and make them our friends and sing songs with them. DUH were so primative we don't know if we love our enemys they wont hurt us.

[Uninen]

You cant deny that what i said isnt the truth, as it is a solid fact.

Also,

About Russia,

They dont have death penalty nomore.. unlike USA.

[mustamato]

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/zarmina1.jpg

Execution, doesn´t differ much to the one getting killed if it´s by a
bullet in the head in Afgha or by a injection in US. You get killed anyway.

And this woman had probably "betrayed her country, and not been loyal",
according to them that is. Just as you think that he did the same thing.

[Midav]

If people want to start pointing fingers, they should make sure their own backyard is clean.

A lot of nations have problems about killing their own.

An dno, it doesn't have to be through government execution, either.

Just a regular homocide rate will suffice....

[German_American]

O yeah we have the death penalty to get rid of our murders and sick minded people. Trust me dude I dont care what you say, I'm sure the Russian gov. whacks a few people here and there. You cant deny that.

[Scrim]

Im glad ill never have to serve in a fighting hole with some of you ****s.Turn around for a second, and youd be running to the rear, waving peace signs, looking for your mothers teat.

Im pretty sure that from say oh the begining of time, until the last half century or so, anyone deserting was shot/hanged/crucified, depending on the flavor of the month, doesnt matter what country your from. Its all part of military discipline, which I see is surely lacking in some places. Why should it be any different today?

[Sixgun Symphony]

sixgun we are suppose to embrace our enemys and make them our friends and sing songs with them. DUH were so primative we don't know if we love our enemys they wont hurt us.

Well you know what I have been saying, the hippie mentality has infected Europe.

[Jack Mehoff]

Thats the f*** problem with you 'Americans', your always killing everybody, including your own citizens..


Thats our problem. Ohh sorry I know the Russians never did that and still dont. Yes Americans kill there own people by the millions every year. We send them to our own special gulags to. We have them in Alaska you ever hear of them. We got the idea from Stalin.

I guess the Ruskies hail their own deserters as heroes

[Trigger]

ducimus19 wrote:

I dont know if I should laugh, cry or pity you. Maybe all three.

That's because you're schizophrenic.

[German_American]

Execution, doesn´t differ much to the one getting killed if it´s by a
bullet in the head in Afgha or by a injection in US. You get killed anyway.


The hell is your point. You talk about all this generalization bs but before you generalized me about loving NAZIs because Im German. You are the best example of why people who think like you contridict yourselfs on a constant basis.

[Midav]

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/zarmina1.jpg

Execution, doesn´t differ much to the one getting killed if it´s by a
bullet in the head in Afgha or by a injection in US. You get killed anyway.

A person that knowingly takes the life of another and knows the consequences of what may happen, yet does it anyway probably does deserve to be executed.

I'm not talking petty theft or burglary or even self defense.

I'm talking cold blooded murder.

I'm sorry, but there is a difference between killing someone for political reasons and killing a murderer.

[Sixgun Symphony]

And this woman had probably "betrayed her country, and not been loyal",
according to them that is. Just as you think that he did the same thing.

We can only assume what the crime was. Over there they shoot prostitutes, so it might be something minor.

Some crimes deserve death, some don't. Of course you Left-Liberals in Europe are far too decadent and weak to consider any real punishment for even the most heinous crimes.


BTW, As a traditionalists, I favor the gallows over the needle. Hanging is the proper way to execute the low sort of criminals.

[German_American]

They would have let Hitler live and prosecuted our troops for getting war booty if they could have.

[German_American]

Im glad ill never have to serve in a fighting hole with some of you f***.Turn around for a second, and youd be running to the rear, waving peace signs, looking for your mothers teat.

Im pretty sure that from say oh the begining of time, until the last half century or so, anyone deserting was shot/hanged/crucified, depending on the flavor of the month, doesnt matter what country your from. Its all part of military discipline, which I see is surely lacking in some places. Why should it be any different today?





WORD

[Jack Mehoff]

What kind of doucebag VOLUNTEER to join 82nd Abn, served as an infantryman and NOT expect to go to war?

Repeat after me: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage.

I think doucebag19 doesn't have any of the above. Let's just hope he doesn't represent CF


http://www.nastyburger.com/handbook1.jpg

[German_American]

srry about the quote things I suck at it

[Skaman]

I think doucebag19 doesn't have any of the above. Let's just hope he doesn't represent CF

Why, because I would not want to go to Iraq? Give me a break...

I would go if I had to, not for Bush, but for my fellow soldiers and ensuring as many of us make it home together. I do not feel morally obliged to passivity. I would only kill in self defense. ONLY.

I am thankful I live in Canada and I am not faced with this horrible moral dilemma. Here I can serve my nation, protect my nation and represent its great people.

[NcDeuce]

I think doucebag19 doesn't have any of the above. Let's just hope he doesn't represent CF

Why, because I would not want to go to Iraq? Give me a break...

I would go if I had to, not for Bush, but for my fellow soldiers and ensuring as many of us make it home together. I do not feel morally obliged to passivity. I would only kill in self defense. ONLY.

I am thankful I live in Canada and I am not faced with this horrible moral dilemma. Here I can serve my nation, protect my nation and represent its great people.


Repeat after me: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage.

I think doucebag19 doesn't have any of the above. Let's just hope he doesn't represent CF

[Uncle Sam]

Part of me wants to say..."coward" and another part of me wants to say..."sh*t happens" He felt he was doing the right thing for himself, not for his friends or unit. That also boggles me, joining an infantry unit. If you want to join and "not" go to war, or shoot your weapon, or kill someone, then maybe go somewhere like Div. "paper pusher", or get a better ASVAB score !

When we were getting ready to deploy to Haiti, we had just gotten about 10 or so cherries, right before deployment, do you know how many were left...? None ! They all went AWOL, no kidding...This made our Company "light". We had to get troopers from other places...People we had not "worked" with before.

Don't join if you really haven't thought it through. Seek advice...geez!

[Uninen]

If people want to start pointing fingers, they should make sure their own backyard is clean.

A lot of nations have problems about killing their own.

Me and mustamato are clean of all this, so save it.

FREEDOM isnt killing people.

:bash:

[Uninen]

I guess the Ruskies hail their own deserters as heroes

Just to make sure, im no 'Ruskie', But what Russian do, they jail them, not kill like you guys.

[Jack Mehoff]

I think doucebag19 doesn't have any of the above. Let's just hope he doesn't represent CF

Why, because I would not want to go to Iraq? Give me a break...

I would go if I had to, not for Bush, but for my fellow soldiers and ensuring as many of us make it home together. I do not feel morally obliged to passivity. I would only kill in self defense. ONLY.

I am thankful I live in Canada and I am not faced with this horrible moral dilemma. Here I can serve my nation, protect my nation and represent its great people.

I don't want to wake up 4am every morning and jog for 10 miles in 3 feet of snow. I don't want to spend 30 days out in the field for NTC. I don't want to do KP and clean the latrines. I don't want the DS to yell in my face and make me do push ups. I don't want .........

I don't want to do any of that **** but guess what? Unlike some whiny little boys, I volunteer to put on this uniform and i'm MAN enough to live up to my promise.

[Midav]

If people want to start pointing fingers, they should make sure their own backyard is clean.

A lot of nations have problems about killing their own.

Me and mustamato are clean of all this, so save it.

FREEDOM isnt killing people.

:bash:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

You brought it up. Not me....

[Skaman]

If people want to start pointing fingers, they should make sure their own backyard is clean.

A lot of nations have problems about killing their own.

Me and mustamato are clean of all this, so save it.

FREEDOM isnt killing people.

:bash:


You are certainly right there, but apparently war is justification in the name of freedom, how ironic. The contemporary modern battlefield has never been so complex. The face of war has truly changed. I am not in reference to technology, rather morality.

[Uninen]

prosecuted our troops for getting war booty if they could have.

Hell yes!

Sagaves and apes 'loot' and its criminal.

'war booty' is looting, plain and simple.

:|

[Uninen]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

You brought it up. Not me....

Mine is 29. yours 23.

:cantbeli:

Your point?

[Sixgun Symphony]

I would go if I had to, not for Bush, but for my fellow soldiers and ensuring as many of us make it home together. I do not feel morally obliged to passivity. I would only kill in self defense. ONLY.



This ain't "peace keeping", this is war we are talking about. If you get called up for duty then you will be attacking an enemy.

Now, would you serve or would you abandon your comrades and your country like the POS deserter that you keep defending?

[Jacko]

Perhaps he joined expecting to do his nation a great service by means of protecting its citizens, or helping those oppressed, neither of which is occurring in Iraq

Did any else catch this from ducimus19?

[Skaman]

I think doucebag19 doesn't have any of the above. Let's just hope he doesn't represent CF

Why, because I would not want to go to Iraq? Give me a break...

I would go if I had to, not for Bush, but for my fellow soldiers and ensuring as many of us make it home together. I do not feel morally obliged to passivity. I would only kill in self defense. ONLY.

I am thankful I live in Canada and I am not faced with this horrible moral dilemma. Here I can serve my nation, protect my nation and represent its great people.

I don't want to wake up 4am every morning and jog for 10 miles in 3 feet of snow. I don't want to spend 30 days out in the field for NTC. I don't want to do KP and clean the latrines. I don't want the DS to yell in my face and make me do push ups. I don't want .........

I don't want to do any of that **** but guess what? Unlike some whiny little boys, I volunteer to put on this uniform and i'm MAN enough to live up to my promise.

You cannot see the difference from arbitrary army tasks to actual deployment when one is faced with strong moral anguish? If your section commander told you to kill an Iraqi family to send a message of force in dealing with militants, would you, simply because it’s your 'job'. I would rather he shoot me in non-compliance right there than suffer the burden the rest of my life.

[German_American]

From what I have heard you say I'm glad your in Canada too so they can deal with you and not us.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Perhaps he joined expecting to do his nation a great service by means of protecting its citizens, or helping those oppressed, neither of which is occurring in Iraq

Did any else catch this from ducimus19?


Just goes to show that he is misinformed about the situation in Iraq.

[Jacko]

Exactly, Sixguns. For someone who's never been there, ducimus19 would like to think he can see what's happening across the entire country, it would seem.

[Jack Mehoff]

You cannot see the difference from arbitrary army tasks to actual deployment when one is faced with strong moral anguish? If your section commander told you to kill an Iraqi family to send a message of force in dealing with militants, would you, simply because it’s your 'job'. I would rather he shoot me in non-compliance right there than suffer the burden the rest of my life.



doucebag19, what the **** that has anything to do with refusing order to go to war?

Shooting innocent people is a crime under UCMJ. UCMJ is part of the oath and if you murdered innocent people you broke the oath.

http://www.nastyburger.com/oath.jpg

[Midav]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

You brought it up. Not me....

Mine is 29. yours 23.

:cantbeli:

Your point?

My point? You're the one that brought it up first.


Thats the f*** problem with you 'Americans', your always killing everybody, including your own citizens..

I was just saying, clean up your own backyard before pointing fingers....

[Ratamacue]

You cannot see the difference from arbitrary army tasks to actual deployment when one is faced with strong moral anguish? If your section commander told you to kill an Iraqi family to send a message of force in dealing with militants, would you, simply because it’s your 'job'. I would rather he shoot me in non-compliance right there than suffer the burden the rest of my life.

Yeah, because those kind of actions happen all the time in Iraq, right? Give me a goddamn break. Your example is irrelevant.

You ask if we feel the same way about objectors during wars in which men were drafted? I have no problem with objectors who were drafted. But guess what, there hasn't been a draft for quite a few years now. The person in question volunteered to join the US Army, joined the 82nd ABN, made relationships with the men in his unit, then abandoned them. You sign the papers, you do your time. Tough luck, buddy.

As for those of you complaining about how inhumane the death penalty is for crimes, I suggest you read the book Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein. If you're open-minded enough, it may give you a different outlook on the subject.

[German_American]

Uninen, if a man walked into your house and killed your family. First he rapped your mom and then tortured your father would you want him to have the death penalty? Would you let him live? Id probably kill him myself. O yeah and plus America has about 300 million people living here and a lot more cities then Finland so for our crime rate to be where it is, is not as bad as you make it seem.

[Skaman]

I would go if I had to, not for Bush, but for my fellow soldiers and ensuring as many of us make it home together. I do not feel morally obliged to passivity. I would only kill in self defense. ONLY.



This ain't "peace keeping", this is war we are talking about. If you get called up for duty then you will be attacking an enemy.

Now, would you serve or would you abandon your comrades and your country like the POS deserter that you keep defending?


I am much more inclined to serve as a 'peace-keeper' than a war-monger. If being a peace keeper requires I retaliate against the enemy, I will do so. (Yet I will only exert my ability to kill when others attempt to take my life from me) Sadly, people cannot distinguish this difference from what is going on in Iraq.

[Jack Mehoff]

am much more inclined to serve as a 'peace-keeper' than a war-monger. If being a peace keeper requires I retaliate against the enemy, I will do so. (Yet I will only exert my ability to kill when others attempt to take my life from me) Sadly, people cannot distinguish this difference from what is going on in Iraq
Take your own advice doucebag

[Skaman]

You cannot see the difference from arbitrary army tasks to actual deployment when one is faced with strong moral anguish? If your section commander told you to kill an Iraqi family to send a message of force in dealing with militants, would you, simply because it’s your 'job'. I would rather he shoot me in non-compliance right there than suffer the burden the rest of my life.



doucebag19, what the f*** that has anything to do with refusing order to go to war?

Shooting innocent people is a crime under UCMJ. UCMJ is part of the oath and if you murdered innocent people you broke the oath.

http://www.nastyburger.com/oath.jpg

It’s an extreme hypothetical question as you seem to be one who would simply follow orders blindly as its 'your job'. Well, I am only a 'yes man' to a certain extent.

[Jack Mehoff]

I don't follow orders. I follow the oath.

Like usa320 said

Post by a coward
Defend by cowards
Take it up the ass like cowards

[Skaman]

I don't follow orders. I follow the oath.

Like usa320 said

Post by a coward
Defend by cowards
Take it up the ass like cowards

Why do you have a sig of a pistol under a cats chin?

[Jack Mehoff]

and why do you care?

[Sixgun Symphony]

I am much more inclined to serve as a 'peace-keeper' than a war-monger. If being a peace keeper requires I retaliate against the enemy, I will do so. (Yet I will only exert my ability to kill when others attempt to take my life from me) Sadly, people cannot distinguish this difference from what is going on in Iraq.

You have a lack of comprehension. Cognative dissidence?

You are more likely to get your own comrades killed because you refuse to attack an enemy. It is possible that you might disrupt an ambush and the enemy will counterattack.

If you have such moral qualms, then you should become a medic or corpsman and forget about being a combatant.

[Skaman]

and why do you care?

Frankly I think its disgusting and not funny in the least.

[German_American]

ducimus19 do you know what the 82nd airborne division is. You do not sign up for your independent thinking skills. You sign up to serve your country and follow orders. If he did not want to see combat he would not have signed up for such an elite group of men. You think those boys bombing kosovo and Iraq in 98 and 99 wanted to do it. Most likly not but they did it anyway. They were practically doing it because our dear president wanted himself out of the news.

[NcDeuce]

You cannot see the difference from arbitrary army tasks to actual deployment when one is faced with strong moral anguish? If your section commander told you to kill an Iraqi family to send a message of force in dealing with militants, would you, simply because it’s your 'job'. I would rather he shoot me in non-compliance right there than suffer the burden the rest of my life.



doucebag19, what the f*** that has anything to do with refusing order to go to war?

Shooting innocent people is a crime under UCMJ. UCMJ is part of the oath and if you murdered innocent people you broke the oath.

http://www.nastyburger.com/oath.jpg

It’s an extreme hypothetical question as you seem to be one who would simply follow orders blindly as its 'your job'. Well, I am only a 'yes man' to a certain extent.

STFU ducimus. Damn, you are the most retarded and stubborn idiot on the face of this Earth. If your unit commander gave you orders to pack up to ship out. You would do it. Wait, you would probably wet your pants and run to your mommy.

[German_American]

[quote]Frankly I think its disgusting and not funny in the least.






I think your mom breast fed you to long

[Jack Mehoff]

and why do you care?

Frankly I think its disgusting and not funny in the least.

Enjoy!

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7983

[duck]

AQ and the Baathist fringe want to start a civil war in Iraq as soon as power is transferred back to the legitime Iraqi government. And turn the country into a terrorist breeding grounds similar to Pakistan. If forestalling that and ensuring the birth of Iraqi democracy is not a worthy cause then nothing is. Who knows, there might be Swedish troops in Iraq by the summer. ;)

[Midav]

rofl

[Jacko]

ducimus19, do you have an answer to the comment I quoted before? I'm very interested to know where and how you're getting your information that the toppling of Hussein's regime did not free or help any oppressed people

[Skaman]

ducimus19, do you have an answer to the comment I quoted before? I'm very interested to know where and how you're getting your information that the toppling of Hussein's regime did not free or help any oppressed people
There has been thread on thread of topics covering reason, support etc. If you want to know my opinion, and my facts for validating such claims, go read some of my prior posts.

[Jacko]

If you want to know my opinion

That's all I needed to know. Thanks.

[Dennis G]

ducimus19

What is a justified war to you? What would you go to war for is there anything that you would fight for? How about your right to read dumb ass books!(Moore comes to mind) or do you depend on others to do your fighting? I bet that you would end up like this kid. You join a combat infantry unit but when the **** hits the fan you would run to.

[NcDeuce]

You cannot see the difference from arbitrary army tasks to actual deployment when one is faced with strong moral anguish? If your section commander told you to kill an Iraqi family to send a message of force in dealing with militants, would you, simply because it’s your 'job'. I would rather he shoot me in non-compliance right there than suffer the burden the rest of my life.



doucebag19, what the f*** that has anything to do with refusing order to go to war?

Shooting innocent people is a crime under UCMJ. UCMJ is part of the oath and if you murdered innocent people you broke the oath.

http://www.nastyburger.com/oath.jpg

It’s an extreme hypothetical question as you seem to be one who would simply follow orders blindly as its 'your job'. Well, I am only a 'yes man' to a certain extent.

STFU ducimus. Damn, you are the most retarded and stubborn idiot on the face of this Earth. If your unit commander gave you orders to pack up to ship out. You would do it. Wait, you would probably wet your pants and run to your mommy.

[Dennis G]

ducimus19, do you have an answer to the comment I quoted before? I'm very interested to know where and how you're getting your information that the toppling of Hussein's regime did not free or help any oppressed people
There has been thread on thread of topics covering reason, support etc. If you want to know my opinion, and my facts for validating such claims, go read some of my prior posts.

Jacko you are going to have to Shovel alot Bull**** to get a answer

[Jacko]

I know. I was trying to see if ducimus19 would actually argue a valid point. That seems to be a phobia of his.

[Skaman]

I know. I was trying to see if ducimus19 would actually argue a valid point. That seems to be a phobia of his.

What would you like to me to argue?

[Midav]

You just can't decide to join the military one day then try and become a paratrooper the next because you think it's cool, then take off during the first sign of aggression.

It just doesn't work that way. He signed the agreement and knew what he was getting himself into. He was going into the Army. The same organization known for centuries for taking men to war. For killing. For destruction (ok also peacekeeping etc in todays world, but you folks get the point).

Again, had there been a draft, perhaps I could see his point.

However, there isn't one. He volunteered. He signed the oath. He knew the military could at any time go to war.

If not, then I stand by my words.. the guy is stupid.

[SOG]

I would go if I had to, not for Bush, but for my fellow soldiers and ensuring as many of us make it home together. I do not feel morally obliged to passivity. I would only kill in self defense. ONLY.

in self defense of what? yourself? family? ideals? morals? harms way? what is just? what you decide? thats such a broad statement. what about only in self defense of wherever your country sends you period? is WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY putting yourself in a position where you will cause someone harm or death self defense? NO. self defense is a excuse or tactic peddled by countries in the know so they look good. "who us? we were fired at, we jus5t fired back. even though we flew 5000 miles to come here as "police" we had no idea we would be fired at and have to return fire." oh gee golly gosh gee.

someone meaning to cause harm but has not inflicted harm but being offensive in nature would mean that you may engage by probability and likelyhood? or just let it come?

interesting, YOU join a organization (mil) that PURPOSEFULLY puts itself in harms way to defend and in turn KILL.

but let me get this straight, the US goes into iraq (for whatever reason you like), and PURPOSEFULLY attacks a regime which in turn defends the people from the regime itself and in turn KILL that regime. do you object to forward action in the defense of others? or SELF defense. emphasis on SELF because others arent worthy or they dont matter?

now morally the two are defending someone period. you have a problem with the REASON but the underlying fact and actions are the same. so if morally you are obliged to defend, again, in what sense do you propose defense? your backyard or just personall threat?

it is a historical fact sadam is a mass murder, he has carried this with him in his carreer and his sons are no better. UNLESS by some absolute miracle his sons would have both turned into angels when he died and they dont carry on his regime of torture rape oppression suppression mutilation. so the past, combined with current day, and a future projection of the sons unto the father, would warrant a offensive action in the DEFENSE of the people would be right up your ally no?

so in the end you dont have a moral signature of "defense", but a political stance of reasoning cause. "i dont like the political reason why, so they can all go ahead and die". self defense or self defeating? hey, personally, if we went into every ****hole and stopped fighting in every country one at a time behind some lame ass political excuse id be as happy as hell because the world would be minus people going to hell!


I am thankful I live in Canada and I am not faced with this horrible moral dilemma. Here I can serve my nation, protect my nation and represent its great people.

the moral dilema that not only your country, but plenty of others stand by idely whilst thousands die every year in small scale conflicts across the globe and your country as well as most in the UN sit idely by and do nothing? im sorry, how do you "morally" feel about that? not that you dont have the man power, not that you dont have obligation as part of the UN to stand up on behalf of others? resourcefully the UN if applied properly could settle many hotspots rather quickly. the fact that canada as well as the US and many other countries only engage where there interests are warranted is standard. but when the US acts by itself in its OWN interests without its big sister the UN because many sitting in the UN have INVESTED interests in what the US is acting against, then all of a sudden its bad?

what was the UN (YOU) doing in somalia again? what was the US doing in somalia again? acting i believe it was called? instead of soley handing out "food" aka weapons for the warlords to further control its populace by starvation? until one op goes wrong and everyone cries foul in the US when some poor opium toking warriors are knocked off or the media portrays our involvement there as poor because a soldiers body gets dragged through the streets? lovely rules of engagement you had up there, SELF defense. others may be cut down before you, killed, maimed raped etc, you are to write that down and file it with your CO? SELF is a understatement.

morally all governments are bankrupt. why are you peddling yours above any others or as a structure for your beliefs or those fleeing in sympathetic involvment? because its involvement is less simply because of its size, so less is more regarding morals? unbelievable. i dont like a lot of things the US or any government does but i recognize at the base its effects and dont take a side based on a excuse political excuse positive or negative.

i question your morals regarding Self defense based ont he fact that your actions and those you defend are like unto you and are only about thierself and not the well being of others.

thank you.

[SeanAshi]

Why do you have a sig of a pistol under a cats chin?
That cat is from Belfast.

[duck]

No difference with the draft. Most countries send their young men to prison if they refuse military or a longer compulsory civil works service. In many, they face discrimination in the job market while an exemplary service and possible reserve NCO/Officer status might help them to their dream job.

[TriggerPuller]

Who the fuuck has ever joined the military to be a peace keeper! You dont train to be a peace keeper,you train to go to war or in a support billet to those that do the fighting! You want to be a peace keeper then join the freakin Peace Corps. In the military we are trained to kill not to get your college fund money.This is the kinda BS that brings the morale of a unit down and gets people killed. He sure as hell wasnt a conscience objector when he joined. Fuucking COWARD plain and simple!!

TP

[Jacko]

I know. I was trying to see if ducimus19 would actually argue a valid point. That seems to be a phobia of his.

What would you like to me to argue?

Again, I would like to know how you can backup the statement that helping oppressed people is an action that is not being done (Or even past tense, 'was done'), in Iraq. I believe you've mentioned quite a few times you've never been there yourself, so I'm wondering where you're getting your information concerning this topic.

[-=TFN=-Karab]

What a wimp... The shots he may have possibly shot from his rifle in Iraq could have saved some lives. Yet he goes AWOL and hides while his buddies fight without him... Risking their lives.

[Uninen]

Uninen, if a man walked into your house and killed your family. First he rapped your mom and then tortured your father would you want him to have the death penalty?
:roll:

My father is dead, and i live with my girl, not with my mom. Also **** like this could never happen to me, because of certain things..

But if something like this would happen, i would kill him on the spot, BY MYSELF.
:-*$

Just saying that government sanctioned murder isnt civilized..
:|

[BlackRain]

What really bugs me about deserters is that they think their life is more valuable than other soldiers lives. In addition, the new soldier that must fill the deserter's position is put a risk.

Desertion is an elitist act. Some animals are more equal than others. So that soldier who fled to Canada believes that his skin and his family is more important than the others in his unit.

No real fighting man would condone desertion for any reason. It is against the warrior code and to violate it shows what a man is really made of.

Australian Military Penalities for Desertion


According to Section 98 of the Commonwealth Defence Act 1903, no member of the Defence Force shall be sentenced to death by any court martial except for four offences: mutiny; desertion to the enemy; or traitorously delivering up to the enemy any garrison, fortress, post, guard, or ship, vessel, or boat, or aircraft; or traitorous correspondence with the enemy. Significantly, this sentence could not be carried out until it was confirmed by the Governor-General.

USA Military Penalities for Desertion


Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 15 offenses can be punishable by death, though many of these crimes -- such as desertion or disobeying a superior commissioned officer's orders -- carry the death penalty only in time of war.

"No arsenal is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have. It is a weapon that we as Americans do have. Let that be understood by those who practice terrorism."

- Ronald Reagan

Sadly, cowards like that deserter will never come to the aid of his countrymen.

[Sean85]

"Shooting rockets and machine guns and jumping out of planes, it's all fun until you start to think about the bigger picture and what it's all about."


Here I thought the army let the soldiers do those things for fun. :cantbeli: ..what a douchebag...Anyone else catch this as a red flag??

[James]

I'd give him a dishonorable discharge for desertion and wash my hands of the matter - no torture or execution :roll: or even jail time. He volunteered for the Army, the infantry, and the airborne, was apparently a good soldier, and quit. I think the fact that he turned his back on his fellow soldeirs is far worse than disagreeing with the politics behind the war in Iraq. The U.S. Army is better off without him.

I was 19 years old when I enlisted, and I knew exactly what I was getting into. If you don't, well, shame on you.

[Maj C]

Like I said before it's no big deal. We don't even bother to chase deserters - they just wait for them to turn themselves in or for them to get picked up for something else. Give him bad paper and send him on his way. Out of the 1000s of deserters in WW2 we only executed Pvt Slovak and to this day it's still held up as a miscarriage of justice. The Germans on the other hand....

Funny story. Went to get a base decal for my POV the other day and saw an old white haired man behind the counter. Thought he was a SgtMaj or MGySgt but when I looked closer I saw he was a PFC!! Didn't want to be a **** so I asked somebody what the gouge was. Apparently this guy came home from Vietnam in 68...didn't want to deal with the garrison chickens*** and just walked away. He gets popped for being a deserter after over 30 years but they offer him an honorable discharge if he serves out the time he owed and he took them up on it!!! Silly to make him do it but a funny story nonetheless.

Another interesting stat...During Vietnam 20000 draft dodgers fled to Canada, another 12000 deserted and fled to Canada, but 40000 Canadians came to the US and joined while 12000 ended up serving in Vietnam - it's estimated that 400 were KIA and are on the wall.

[Jack Mehoff]

Like I said before it's no big deal. We don't even bother to chase deserters - they just wait for them to turn themselves in or for them to get picked up for something else. Give him bad paper and send him on his way. Out of the 1000s of deserters in WW2 we only executed Pvt Slovak and to this day it's still held up as a miscarriage of justice. The Germans on the other hand....

Funny story. Went to get a base decal for my POV the other day and saw an old white haired man behind the counter. Thought he was a SgtMaj or MGySgt but when I looked closer I saw he was a PFC!! Didn't want to be a **** so I asked somebody what the gouge was. Apparently this guy came home from Vietnam in 68...didn't want to deal with the garrison chickens*** and just walked away. He gets popped for being a deserter after over 30 years but they offer him an honorable discharge if he serves out the time he owed and he took them up on it!!! Silly to make him do it but a funny story nonetheless.

Another interesting stat...During Vietnam 20000 draft dodgers fled to Canada, another 12000 deserted and fled to Canada, but 40000 Canadians came to the US and joined while 12000 ended up serving in Vietnam - it's estimated that 400 were KIA and are on the wall.

Good point

http://www.vietnamwar.com/CanadianCasualties.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5344/cvvm.html

[Sierra]

I HATE THESE PEOPLE! COWARD! y wont he fight.

[NcDeuce]

]


"Shooting rockets and machine guns and jumping out of planes, it's all fun until you start to think about the bigger picture and what it's all about."


I think you're in the wrong profession. Shooting rockets, blowing stuff up...trains you for war...to kill the enemy when the time calls for it. Jumping out of planes is done to train you for war...not to look cool and attract extreme sport fans...

In the wrong profession...

[martinexsquaddie]

complete Waftam waste of f******* time and money. A man like that should have been pointed in the direction of the Air force recruitment office rofl

[oldsoak]

Is there a means by which the US army can say to soldiers something along the lines of " if you dont think the war we are fighting is moral - fine - get in that line over there for the medical corps " ?. That way he can still do a useful job. At the least, it gives him the opportunity to prove that its a question of morality , not of cowardice. Sh*t, he might be very good as a medic. OK , maybe I've got the rose tinted glasses on but it might be a thought. If he still says no, then its the usual process for such cases.
:slap:

[WARPIG]

I didn’t go through all of the posts and am coming into this a bit late. I have known a few conscientious objectors though. One of them was a close friend of mine. Another worked under me.

My friend and I both were Airborne, went to basic training, AIT, and airborne school together. We were stationed in Germany during desert storm. I think he was the hardest partying, drinking, womanizing grunt in the whole company. We used to get into bar fights together all the time. The only thing he was afraid of was being too drunk to remember what stupid thing he did the night before. How could he brag about it if he doesn’t remember? We were transferred to the 82nd at the same time. He went to the 504th; I was in the 505th. On his PCS leave he married his HS sweetheart, and became a Jehovah Witness. In the span of a month this guy went from one extreme to the next. He wasn’t my drinking buddy anymore but he was still the hard charging fireplug I knew for years. I could see he was having conflict with being a soldier though. The more he became in touch with his faith, the more it conflicted with the way he lived his life. He applied, and was granted, a discharge from service as a conscientious objector. He had to apply, and be interviewed repeatedly. His military record and performance was beyond reproach. He never even contemplated desertion. As a matter of fact I believe he received an ARCOM as an exit award from his commander.

The other soldier worked under me in an admin function. I was the acting operations sergeant for my company and this CO was my NBC NCO. He was supposed to be a tanker but was stuck in the HQ admin section right out of basic. He was an OK soldier. Called into sick call more than most but seemed kind of the sickly sort. No big deal. He kept his nose clean and pulled his weight. He got married during our ramp up training for NTC. I was under tons of pressure to keep the admin stuff afloat while prepping the BDE for lanes and deployment. All he had to do is keep the NBC section full. He did that. I let him stay out of the field while he was getting married and all he had to do is make sure that he came to our training site during the day and put in a days work. That way he could spend time with his new wife and then have a 4-day weekend. By the next field exercise he was looking for another way out of going to the field. He was so stressed about being away from his wife for a whole week that he began getting “sick.” I had to counsel him and basically tell him to suck it up. I think my words were, “I’ve been were you are right now, I know it sucks, I know your wife is going to panic, but it is just a field exercise, suck it up, it will get better.” “If we have to we can run a little “OP” to sneak you in for a few hours to check on her.” He agreed and the next day I lead a quartering party into the AO for the TOC and by the time the main convoy rolls in, my NBC NCO is in a full on anxiety attack. He is curled up in a ball in his hasty fighting position crying like a baby. He is 5’11 and about 195lbs. Crying. He also applied for release as a CO. He was eventually discharged for “failure to adapt to military life,” after months of counseling, charges of malingering, cowardice, and several more sessions of crying.

I hate to come into this late and drop some long stories on you but I think that it sort of paints a picture of what different people and different situations affect what their role in the military is.
The guy in the article simply is afraid. He was very aware of what his role in the military was, what he was expected to do and he enjoyed it. It is easy to say.. “ Well the whole kill, kill, kill, thing in basic training bothered me.” ****, it bothered me too. I was like most and realized it was done in humor though. It was also to remind us of what we are training to do. We train ourselves to kill people…bottom line. It is very clear and very obvious the day you enlist. Especially when you’re an infantryman in the 504th! If he had a change of faith that is fine. But going from Buddhism to a Quaker? Think this guy is spiritual or just confused? I think finding the Quaker group in Fayetteville was just convenient.

[Spleen]

Nowhere that I have read ( though I'm perfectly willing to accept that I somehow missed it ) does it say he was not willing to go to war. Yet that seems to be the most common attack here: "How can he have joined the Airborne and not expected to go to war?", or "He ran away at the first sign of war!". The guy went to F***ing Afghanistan, for god's sake, how many of us here have gone?

And why has no one addressed the question brought up about the German, Iraqi, etc. deserters? It's quite clear the difference here is that you happen to agree with the people who deserted in those cases, and not in his. He feels the war in Iraq is wrong, as do many people, both Americans and others, but it's important to notice here that he DID do his time in Afghanistan. So I think at that point it becomes fairly clear that his objection is a moral one to the particular conflict he is avoiding, not to military service, or risking his life. Just as many the deserters from the German Army objected to various things their country was doing. You're just showing your intolerance of other opinions than your own.

For those calling him a coward, the truth is it takes MORE courage to go against your countrymen, your camarades, and desert than it does to just go along with it, as showed by the numbers of Germans, etc, who did NOT desert. This guy may be many things, but deserting was probably the hardest thing he ever did in his life, and I don't think he's a coward. In fact it looks to me like he is a rather brave guy for taking the hard road to maintain his morals, in the face of the difficulties that will entail for him for years to come. This is NOT to say that I necessarily agree with him, however, he went to the 'stan, risked his life there (maybe not on the front lines, but he went), so it's unlikely the risk to his life that kept him away.

That said, he's a stupid guy if he joined the f***ing US Army for the money thinking "Ah, we're never going to go to war anyway, I'll just take the money!", but I think based on the fact that he went to Afghanistan that this is unlikely to be the case. When it came time to serve in a cause he believed in, he went and did it. Just as many of the German soldiers in WWII signed up before the true nature of the Nazi party became clear. Many of them deserted due to their disagreement with the actions of the Military they had signed up with. Are they cowards too?

One of the problems in this case is that political disagreement is NOT allowed as a justification of becoming a CO. Unfortunately, if you do allow it, every coward under the sun now has a simple way out when it's time to do the hard part of the job that they signed up for thinking only of the money and steady employment. People should really think more thouroughly before joining the military. There is a good chance in almost ANY military that you will be asked to do things that you will not morally/politically/strategically agree with. Your job as a soldier is to suck it up. If you're not willing, DON'T SIGN UP!

The suggestions of killing the guy are ridiculous, bloodthirsty, and make Americans look more like thugs than anything else. I know MANY Americans who would never agree to such an idea, so all you non-Americans out there really shouldn't hold it against the whole country. Obviously on a Military Photo themed website, you're going to get a higher than average level of acceptance of violence. The average American does not share the views of the average American member of this forum. Pacifists aren't exactly the norm here.



I'm sorry, but there is a difference between killing someone for political reasons and killing a murderer.

Yes there is, you seem to be making our point FOR us. You are suggesting the killing of this guy for either his political disagreement, or worse, killing him for a contract violation! Damn, we'd have to kill most members of the US Government ( and the Canadian govt, don't get me wrong ) if this was justification. Wait a minute, maybe that's not such a bad idea....

Also, the US is one of a dwindling few first-world countries who still allow the death penalty, and one of the ONLY who allow the execution of children. So it's not just Europe who is against capitol punishment.


Uninen, if a man walked into your house and killed your family. First he rapped your mom and then tortured your father would you want him to have the death penalty? Would you let him live? Id probably kill him myself. O yeah and plus America has about 300 million people living here and a lot more cities then Finland so for our crime rate to be where it is, is not as bad as you make it seem.

That rate is per-capita ( IE, it's based on number of crimes per 1000 people, not total numbers of crimes in the country ), so your point is moot.



Uninen, if a man walked into your house and killed your family. First he rapped your mom and then tortured your father would you want him to have the death penalty?
:roll:

My father is dead, and i live with my girl, not with my mom. Also **** like this could never happen to me, because of certain things..

But if something like this would happen, i would kill him on the spot, BY MYSELF.
:-*$

Just saying that government sanctioned murder isnt civilized..
:|

I agree with this 100%.

Finally, someone here said he should use his Social Whatever degree here in Canada to help people, but I was pretty sure from the article that it was his wife who had the degree. He wants to be a bicycle courier, as I recall.

[WARPIG]

Nowhere that I have read ( though I'm perfectly willing to accept that I somehow missed it ) does it say he was not willing to go to war. Yet that seems to be the most common attack here: "How can he have joined the Airborne and not expected to go to war?", or "He ran away at the first sign of war!". The guy went to F***ing Afghanistan, for god's sake, how many of us here have gone?

And why has no one addressed the question brought up about the German, Iraqi, etc. deserters? It's quite clear the difference here is that you happen to agree with the people who deserted in those cases, and not in his. He feels the war in Iraq is wrong, as do many people, both Americans and others, but it's important to notice here that he DID do his time in Afghanistan. So I think at that point it becomes fairly clear that his objection is a moral one to the particular conflict he is avoiding, not to military service, or risking his life. Just as many the deserters from the German Army objected to various things their country was doing. You're just showing your intolerance of other opinions than your own.

For those calling him a coward, the truth is it takes MORE courage to go against your countrymen, your camarades, and desert than it does to just go along with it, as showed by the numbers of Germans, etc, who did NOT desert. This guy may be many things, but deserting was probably the hardest thing he ever did in his life, and I don't think he's a coward. In fact it looks to me like he is a rather brave guy for taking the hard road to maintain his morals, in the face of the difficulties that will entail for him for years to come. This is NOT to say that I necessarily agree with him, however, he went to the 'stan, risked his life there (maybe not on the front lines, but he went), so it's unlikely the risk to his life that kept him away.

That said, he's a stupid guy if he joined the f***ing US Army for the money thinking "Ah, we're never going to go to war anyway, I'll just take the money!", but I think based on the fact that he went to Afghanistan that this is unlikely to be the case. When it came time to serve in a cause he believed in, he went and did it. Just as many of the German soldiers in WWII signed up before the true nature of the Nazi party became clear. Many of them deserted due to their disagreement with the actions of the Military they had signed up with. Are they cowards too?

One of the problems in this case is that political disagreement is NOT allowed as a justification of becoming a CO. Unfortunately, if you do allow it, every coward under the sun now has a simple way out when it's time to do the hard part of the job that they signed up for thinking only of the money and steady employment. People should really think more thouroughly before joining the military. There is a good chance in almost ANY military that you will be asked to do things that you will not morally/politically/strategically agree with. Your job as a soldier is to suck it up. If you're not willing, DON'T SIGN UP!

The suggestions of killing the guy are ridiculous, bloodthirsty, and make Americans look more like thugs than anything else. I know MANY Americans who would never agree to such an idea, so all you non-Americans out there really shouldn't hold it against the whole country. Obviously on a Military Photo themed website, you're going to get a higher than average level of acceptance of violence. The average American does not share the views of the average American member of this forum. Pacifists aren't exactly the norm here.



I'm sorry, but there is a difference between killing someone for political reasons and killing a murderer.

Yes there is, you seem to be making our point FOR us. You are suggesting the killing of this guy for either his political disagreement, or worse, killing him for a contract violation! Damn, we'd have to kill most members of the US Government ( and the Canadian govt, don't get me wrong ) if this was justification. Wait a minute, maybe that's not such a bad idea....

Also, the US is one of a dwindling few first-world countries who still allow the death penalty, and one of the ONLY who allow the execution of children. So it's not just Europe who is against capitol punishment.


Uninen, if a man walked into your house and killed your family. First he rapped your mom and then tortured your father would you want him to have the death penalty? Would you let him live? Id probably kill him myself. O yeah and plus America has about 300 million people living here and a lot more cities then Finland so for our crime rate to be where it is, is not as bad as you make it seem.

That rate is per-capita ( IE, it's based on number of crimes per 1000 people, not total numbers of crimes in the country ), so your point is moot.



Uninen, if a man walked into your house and killed your family. First he rapped your mom and then tortured your father would you want him to have the death penalty?
:roll:

My father is dead, and i live with my girl, not with my mom. Also **** like this could never happen to me, because of certain things..

But if something like this would happen, i would kill him on the spot, BY MYSELF.
:-*$

Just saying that government sanctioned murder isnt civilized..
:|

I agree with this 100%.

Finally, someone here said he should use his Social Whatever degree here in Canada to help people, but I was pretty sure from the article that it was his wife who had the degree. He wants to be a bicycle courier, as I recall.
Spleen, I appreciate your compassion for this guy. I think it is undeserved though. You mention that he “went” to Afghanistan. Well, one of two things are likely true. The Army takes you to Afghanistan, you don't just go. He could have gone AWOL before that... or... Going to Afghanistan was like going out to defend your country. He was able to ride out with the heros without really being in harms way. I think he was feeling that patriotism but found out he didn't want to pay the price. That could have been part of his turning point. I don’t think this guy has ever “fit in.” I have met several this way. Yes, most infantry units are typically one minded and rough but the most spiritual, faith driven, and moral people I know were combat soldiers. I think he just realized that he wasn’t going to fit in. A lot of people are that way. It doesn’t really mean that they are cowards, but they tend to do very cowardly things to get out. He was digging Buddha for a while and then was seeking the support of Quakers. The Army does look poorly on people who want out for political reasons. Honestly, the Army is not all that supportive of people wanting out for religious reasons either. But the support is there, the cases are looked at objectively as possible, and are handled one at a time. This article is just some political tool to try and smudge the government. It is a poor attempt at that. Maybe this guy is on the up and up… his case was mishandled. It happens. The majority is that most of these guys just chicken out, and will say and do anything to get out. It is cowardice. If you have no connection to your brothers in arms, they are not brothers, and quitting on them doesn’t take much courage at all.
You mention the Iraqi, or German deserters.. well I think it is unfair to compair them to us.Maybe some people believe that what the US is doing in Iraq is unwarranted, illegal, maybe even evil. Iraqi soldiers, German Nazis… were obviously doing evil things. It doesn’t take a Saint to see that Genocide is a bad thing. George W. is not building himself palaces at the expense of US citizens. The US Army National Guard does not have a choke hold on the American people. I really doubt that this one guy has some political insight over the rest of us who serve. We have a moral obligation that is the core of our values as soldiers to do what is right. This guy is just chickening out.

[Spleen]

Let me be quite clear here, I am not in any way meaning to suggest that the US is behaving like the Nazis or the old Iraqi regime, however, I'm saying that his reason for leaving is equivalent to theirs at an objective level. He disagrees with what his military is doing, and deserts because of it, so did they. The difference here, IMHO, therefore is only a question of whether you agree with his opinions or not. Obviously SOME desertions are not cowardly acts.

I just happen to be very willing to accept that my opinions change over time, and that the ones I hold now could be wrong. I value everyone's opinions as much as my own. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but I will consider them instead of dismissing them out of hand just becuase they are different than mine. And for those who say this is weak minded and overly liberal, screw you! Your ideas are wrong!!! ;) :lol:

[Midtown]

okay. Duc is officially the king of bringing up pointless **** to an arguement, as soon as someone makes a point, you make a counter point THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ****ING CONVO. God dammit, get a clue you dolt.

[Tommy Gunn]

This soldier is a deserter and needs to be captured and court martialed. Period.

[TriggerPuller]

I personally enjoy being called a bloodthirsty thug....it's got a nice ring to it!!!!

TP

[WARPIG]

Let me be quite clear here, I am not in any way meaning to suggest that the US is behaving like the Nazis or the old Iraqi regime, however, I'm saying that his reason for leaving is equivalent to theirs at an objective level. He disagrees with what his military is doing, and deserts because of it, so did they. The difference here, IMHO, therefore is only a question of whether you agree with his opinions or not. Obviously SOME desertions are not cowardly acts.

I just happen to be very willing to accept that my opinions change over time, and that the ones I hold now could be wrong. I value everyone's opinions as much as my own. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but I will consider them instead of dismissing them out of hand just becuase they are different than mine. And for those who say this is weak minded and overly liberal, screw you! Your ideas are wrong!!! ;) :lol:


I'm saying that his reason for leaving is equivalent to theirs at an objective level. they are not equivalent. He is deserting because he doesn't want to serve and he has political contridictions to serving.


He disagrees with what his military is doing, and deserts because of it, so did they. Back to what I said before... Nazi's, Saddam's regime.... genocide, opression, terror. Not really something that even the opressors will dispute. This punk, I forgot his name already, wants to desert because he disagree's with war in Iraq versus diplomacy. He is now trying to use spiritual or religious reasons to leave. It is ok for him to disagree with what we are doing in Iraq. Many do. He would have likely been able to leave service if he didn't try and bull**** the Army by trying to us religion as the basis. Telling the military that you cannot bring yourself to kill another human for what ever reason will get you more consideration than pulling the religious card. He is just like the idiots that either fear combat, have extreme seperation anxiety, don't believe in the war, or simply want out... that fake homo******ity or psychological disorders.
I don't think your opinion is completely wrong. I agree with a lot of it. I just think you have the wrong take on this guy. I have some experience with deserters. I think this guy is just typical and it is getting more attention than it deserves.

[Spleen]

I'm saying that his reason for leaving is equivalent to theirs at an objective level. they are not equivalent. He is deserting because he doesn't want to serve and he has political contridictions to serving.

Your statement that he is deserting becuase he "doesn't want to serve" is speculation, and the evidence actually points SLIGHTLY in the other direction. Again, I reference the fact that he served in Afghanistan. Now, just because he served there doesn't necessarily mean he was willing to serve again, I grant you, but I'd certianly be more inclined to believe everyone who is calling him a coward and saying he is unwilling to serve if hadn't gone! If you're right, that is a different issue, but I am not willing to assume that that is his reason. His political and moral reasons, if true, seem sufficient to motivate him to desert, therefore IMHO, it is possible that his political contradictions are the only issue, and if they are, that is equivalent to the German etc. deserters leaving for their own political reasons. Albeit I agree quite clearly with the German soldiers decisions not to fight, and don't necessarily agree with this guys.




He disagrees with what his military is doing, and deserts because of it, so did they. Back to what I said before... Nazi's, Saddam's regime.... genocide, opression, terror. Not really something that even the opressors will dispute. This punk, I forgot his name already, wants to desert because he disagree's with war in Iraq versus diplomacy. He is now trying to use spiritual or religious reasons to leave. It is ok for him to disagree with what we are doing in Iraq. Many do. He would have likely been able to leave service if he didn't try and bull**** the Army by trying to us religion as the basis. Telling the military that you cannot bring yourself to kill another human for what ever reason will get you more consideration than pulling the religious card. He is just like the idiots that either fear combat, have extreme seperation anxiety, don't believe in the war, or simply want out... that fake homo******ity or psychological disorders.
I don't think your opinion is completely wrong. I agree with a lot of it. I just think you have the wrong take on this guy. I have some experience with deserters. I think this guy is just typical and it is getting more attention than it deserves.

If he's playing the religion card and it's not true, that is sad, but since the rules for being a CO specifically exclude political motivation, if you do have political objections, what the hell can you do? Also, I do beleive that over the course of time, especially having been in an active war zone like Afghanistan, that it is possible for someone's opinions and thoughts on how their religious beliefs relate to killing in war time to change. He may be telling the truth about now having religious objections to killing and war. Lot's of people change their opinions about war and killing after being exposed to it first hand.

This guy seems to have supported the war in Afghanistan and doesn't support the war in Iraq. Given the opinions of various people and nations from all over the world who share similar feelings on the two conflicts, this doesn't seem that impossible to me.

So what else could he have done? He seems to have tried the proper channels and been turned down? I'm not suggesting deserting is the right thing, but I wonder what other options he might have had that he didn't exercise?

[gilgoul]

The Enlistment Oath should also have a clause stating:

" I will not read the political anti-American bull**** put forth by intellectual cowards such as Noam Chomsky. If I find another comrade reading aforementioned bull**** I shall kick his ass. I recognize this is my duty."

AMEN

[Trigger]

Spleen wrote:

He feels the war in Iraq is wrong, as do many people, both Americans and others, but it's important to notice here that he DID do his time in Afghanistan. So I think at that point it becomes fairly clear that his objection is a moral one to the particular conflict he is avoiding, not to military service, or risking his life.
OK, so if I walk into Circuit City, grab a 42 inch plasma screen TV and toss the clerk a 50 dollar bill and walk out, it's OK right?
I mean, I paid 50 bucks. I don't want to pay the other 2,500 bucks because morally, I feel that it's too much. I know the price tag says $2,550 but that's more than I want to give.

Yes he went to Afghanistan. I believe the article said he had to be placed on KITCHEN duties not field duties.

[Spleen]

Spleen wrote:

He feels the war in Iraq is wrong, as do many people, both Americans and others, but it's important to notice here that he DID do his time in Afghanistan. So I think at that point it becomes fairly clear that his objection is a moral one to the particular conflict he is avoiding, not to military service, or risking his life.
OK, so if I walk into Circuit City, grab a 42 inch plasma screen TV and toss the clerk a 50 dollar bill and walk out, it's OK right?
I mean, I paid 50 bucks. I don't want to pay the other 2,500 bucks because morally, I feel that it's too much. I know the price tag says $2,550 but that's more than I want to give.


Not at all, but if you had previously spent $2500 on a different TV, I would at least acknowledge that your objection was principle and not that you were not willing to spend $2500 on a TV. I'm not defending his action so much as I am attacking the arguments that he was not "willing to serve", which are clearly at least partially contradicted by his SERVICE in Afghanistan.



Yes he went to Afghanistan. I believe the article said he had to be placed on KITCHEN duties not field duties.

And the reason for that was that his moral/religious/political views were already starting to cause him to question his service, not because he "wasn't willing to serve". This just goes to further the argument that his objections are political/religious/moral etc.
[editted to correct the fact that I had quoted my new text instead of "un-"quoting it.]

[mustamato]

Julius Ceasar betrayed his country once (and it was then he said that
famous alea jacta est as well). So who knows, I hope this deserter will
become something big, maybe president of USA in a couple of years :)

[TriggerPuller]

Julius Ceasar betrayed his country once (and it was then he said that
famous alea jacta est as well). So who knows, I hope this deserter will
become something big, maybe president of USA in a couple of years :)Cocksucker!!

TP

[WARPIG]

OK Spleen. I am definitely speculating to why he is deserting. The evidence points to his cowardice more than anything. I don’t completely believe that he ran out of fear though. I don’t see anything that says he is afraid to go to Iraq. After all he got out of being in harms way in Afghanistan. I think he is a coward for other reasons. You're speculating his intent and credibility as well. The difference is that I have some experience with this. I have known people with justified reasons for leaving the military as COs; and have known people that are full of ****. Most are full of ****. Using religion is one of the most popular ways to get the Army to put you out. Most people won’t fake being gay and don’t like the idea of being thought of as crazy. I have counseled soldiers for being AWOL, malingering, while requesting discharge for religious reasons, for psychological reasons, and political. This guy fits the bull**** bill. He may have some valid political contradictions with the military now but that is not enough. If it were, then people would be breaking contracts at their leisure. I could desert the army because I believe that I am being politically persecuted for having to pay taxes while serving. Don't you think that it is politically un just to be able to serve your country at war as an 18 year old but can't buy alcohol? Hmm I should just quit. “ I don’t believe in the war so I want to quit.” “I am more spiritual now so I can’t go to combat.” Bull****. Really, I get that many here are taking an extreme view of this but so are you. Your defending this guy on some pretty weak speculation. How many soldiers serving right now do you think have issues with killing? Most of them I hope. Spiritual, religious, or just plain human nature, I think most of us have some issues with killing another human. His whole basic training chant complaint is just bull****. One of the guys I went to basic training with was going to be a Chaplain. He laughed every time we said something like that. He enjoyed every minute of basic training. How many soldiers do you think don’t like the way the war was justified to the public? Most of them. But they know what is at stake here. They do their job because they know it must be done. This punks spiritual motives are suspect. His main reasons for desertion are obviously political not spiritual. You even conceded that. We are not to the point that Nazi Germany was or Iraq is now to even start justifying desertion from a volunteer army. I know personally how quickly your faith can change your outlook on life. This guy hasn’t proven that. One of the questions that you are asked when pursuing consideration as a Consciencious Objector is whether you want to leave service or to be put in a non-combat status. Political differences are not a factor in CO cases. Your political opinion or preference in this country is not religion or faith based and does not have any bearing on whether you can break your contract or not. If a soldier is a liberal democrat and thinks that George W. is the anti-christ, that does not let him out of his contract.
Like I said before most of us don’t want to be in Iraq, most of us know that we did the right thing. Maybe we didn’t do it the right way, but if my brother in arms has to go in harms way… should be right next to him. His life is my responsibility just as my life is his. This puke didn’t think once about his buddies. He was perfectly comfortable running away while his friends went to Iraq, as the article showed, were put in harms way. That is cowardice.

[Falco]

The way I see it, when you join the army you must know the implications of your actions and their consequences. It is hid fault if he realized a little to late what he had gotten himself into.

[Cael]

That's why I hate hearing people who join into Infantry units for college money. You want college money sure, but don't go into combat arms. There's also the Navy, if you don't mind being in those damn ships.

I can't say that I really feel much for this guy. I wouldn't shoot him like some people here are saying (cmon that's just stupid), but I wouldn't cut him much of a break either for AWOL. There are other ways to get out of the military, and deserting isn't one of them.

I agree with WARPIG that I believe this guy was scared, I think he went into Afghanistan because he hadn't yet had the balls to AWOL and for him that was the next resort. Things like this gets built up in time.

I just hate to hear people who join the military for the money only join combat arms. It's always a bad idea especially when you're conflicted. Go be a cook or something, a mechanic even. Aviation isn't too bad (for some). Hell there's how many ways to be in the army?

[Seiyuuki]

Julius Ceasar betrayed his country once (and it was then he said that
famous alea jacta est as well). So who knows, I hope this deserter will
become something big, maybe president of USA in a couple of years :)

:cantbeli:

[FallenAngel]

I hope this deserter will
become something big, maybe president of USA in a couple of years :)

Already had one. Bill Clinton ran his ass to Canada three times during Vietnam to avoid being drafted.

[martinexsquaddie]

if you banned under 21 year olds in the British army from drinking :(
well I would'nt want to try it :lol:

[Royal]

if you banned under 21 year olds in the British army from drinking :(
well I would'nt want to try it :lol:

If you banned anyone in the British armed forces...

A few years ago I was deployed on a not very hazardous Op. The then CGS came out for a swan. He came into the Officers Mess on camp and had rather more than a few. The bar shut at 2300 as per. The party moved to a Kiwi Officers accomodation and carried on 'till about 0300 at which point the (Canadian) Camp Commandant ordered the (British) RSM to shut it down;

"I'm the RSM, and if you know what's good for you, Sirs, you'll go to bed now"

From the back of the room came a voice (he wasn't the tallest bloke)"I'm CGS, and if you know what's good for you, you'll f**k off"

The party continued.

[ibstolidude]

if you banned under 21 year olds in the British army from drinking :(
well I would'nt want to try it :lol:

If you banned anyone in the British armed forces...

A few years ago I was deployed on a not very hazardous Op. The then CGS came out for a swan. He came into the Officers Mess on camp and had rather more than a few. The bar shut at 2300 as per. The party moved to a Kiwi Officers accomodation and carried on 'till about 0300 at which point the (Canadian) Camp Commandant ordered the (British) RSM to shut it down;

"I'm the RSM, and if you know what's good for you, Sirs, you'll go to bed now"

From the back of the room came a voice (he wasn't the tallest bloke)"I'm CGS, and if you know what's good for you, you'll f**k off"

The party continued.

Ahh yes the British and their officers mess. On my first deployment with them I realized how serious they took that seperation at an HQ when I arrived at the O's mess in dirty fatigues and armed, "looking for a hot plate".
Fortunately a Wing Commander whom we had escorted previously, took pity on us.

Ohh and they are 'Chefs' not cooks.

The British O' Bar got me in the habit of always carrying Cpt's bars pinned inside my sweater... You know they serve Booze in there!
- not that crap you get a the Eiffy/PX.

Edited - I really need to stop typing when i be a drinkin', it gets all farked up!!!

[ibstolidude]

It sounds to me in the story that he stated his problem was with killing not being in the Army.. It also sounds like his leaders recognized this and placed him in support, non-combat type roles. Cook, armorer, etc.

He jioned in 2001, his time was burning up fast. He should have either completed his time in a support role and continued his paperpush to be released, used proper channels such as Chaplains/Religious Support and well as the numerous military counseling facilities on post and continued to wrok with his command for resolution. As he chose to go AWOL he should be booted from the military with an Dishonorable Discharge. He SHOULD NOT be afforded the same rights and priveliges as those servicemen/women that complete their obligations. Offering him anything other than Dishonorable at this point is a kick in the face to those that have seen their way to the end of their enlistment.

You would have a very difficult time convincing me that one who doesn't finish his enlistment under those conditions deserves anything more. HAd he stuck around or hell he probably could have just chaptered out QMP style. Fail your PT tests, just shoot off into space on the range, get LOM'ed for every skill task given at the same time go to all available counseling. Make your problem heard within the correct channels.

I just re-read the letter. He really did take a cowards way out.

[TriggerPuller]

if you banned under 21 year olds in the British army from drinking :(
well I would'nt want to try it :lol:

If you banned anyone in the British armed forces...

A few years ago I was deployed on a not very hazardous Op. The then CGS came out for a swan. He came into the Officers Mess on camp and had rather more than a few. The bar shut at 2300 as per. The party moved to a Kiwi Officers accomodation and carried on 'till about 0300 at which point the (Canadian) Camp Commandant ordered the (British) RSM to shut it down;

"I'm the RSM, and if you know what's good for you, Sirs, you'll go to bed now"

From the back of the room came a voice (he wasn't the tallest bloke)"I'm CGS, and if you know what's good for you, you'll f**k off"

The party continued.Sorry bro but I speak American not English,what is CGS? RSM is Regimental Sergeant Major correct?

TP

[Tengu]

Julius Ceasar betrayed his country once (and it was then he said that
famous alea jacta est as well). So who knows, I hope this deserter will
become something big, maybe president of USA in a couple of years :)putting cowards in power is more of a european thing. That's what makes them pushovers.

[DPGLAW]

What a coward....I think that the position taken by the officers at his CO hearing was 100% correct. Why, if he objected so much to killing, would he become an Airborne Assualt officer?

He is nothing but a pussy that decided he couldn't hack it and the gov't should go into Canada and take him back to the US, put him on trial and either give him a life sentence or execute him. I beliee I read on this BB that cowardice is punishable by death. He let down his brothers in arms, his country and he has given his son a father whom he cannot even ever respect. He will probably look at his father as just what he was, a coward, once the kid sees what real life is like.

It is unfortunate that it was other soldiers who care about, respect, and believe in their oath and are willing to die for this country and what they believe in. They obviously didn't just do it for the money.....With an attitude like his, even if he went to college I doubt he ever would of made anything of himself....Especially now that you see his life ambition is to be a bicycle messanger and a Quaker, I think that says enough by itself. But in my opinion he is a waste of life...god-damn liberals...look what they are doing to this country

[DPGLAW]

I hope to god that ducimus19 is not an American...He sounds French and if that is true that would explain his dumbass comments....as someone else said on here you are probably one of those people that call terrorists freedom fighters...

Let me guess, you also beleive that we souldn't of gone to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, or Iraq?? I don't know what else to say about you other than reading your commets makes me sick to my stomach and I hope that one day something happens to you or someone you know that might show you reality...If you aren't from France move there, and if you are from the US, please leave, no one wants a person like you as a citizen of this country, I know I don't... your comments make you a true embarrassment to the United States

[Truthsayer]

Uninen, if a man walked into your house and killed your family. First he rapped your mom and then tortured your father would you want him to have the death penalty? Would you let him live? Id probably kill him myself. O yeah and plus America has about 300 million people living here and a lot more cities then Finland so for our crime rate to be where it is, is not as bad as you make it seem.

This is why you have a legal system - to avoid people taking the justice in their own hand and lynching everyone, like you have an history to do. (Ok, mostly black, but hey, they do all the crime, eh? No? Though someone of you said so.)


If someone broke into my house, stole my bike or even laid a hand on my wife when we are at an club, I wouldn't mind putting them forward for an death-sentence. That is why neither you or me is the judge in our own court-cases.


If you can't separete the idea of thinking as an surviving victom or an citisen of an state, then you are going to have a tough life.


As for the guy who ran...if you sign up, you have made a contract to serve.

I just wish the story isn't 'flavoured' to make up facts with the army loosing his papers and that the next soldier that does get a change of heart (for whatever reason) get dealt with in time. 'Loosing' papers and forgetting the matter and hoping it will solve itself is only a bad thing that might lead into incidents like the guy who fragged 3 comrades in the first week of war in Iraq, since he couldn't go with them to the front (from the camp) after not acting like he should the day before...a proper mental profiling might had picked this up. =)

[Jack Mehoff]

I hope to god that ducimus19 is not an American...He sounds French and if that is true that would explain his dumbass comments....as someone else said on here you are probably one of those people that call terrorists freedom fighters...

Let me guess, you also beleive that we souldn't of gone to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, or Iraq?? I don't know what else to say about you other than reading your commets makes me sick to my stomach and I hope that one day something happens to you or someone you know that might show you reality...If you aren't from France move there, and if you are from the US, please leave, no one wants a person like you as a citizen of this country, I know I don't... your comments make you a true embarrassment to the United States

doucebag19 is Canadian

[Royal]

Sorry bro but I speak American not English,what is CGS? RSM is Regimental Sergeant Major correct?

TP

CGS is the Chief of the General Staff (a 4 star). The most senior officer in the army.

Yeah, RSM is a Regimental Sergeant Major.

[Tommy Gunn]

I hope to god that ducimus19 is not an American...He sounds French and if that is true that would explain his dumbass comments....

He is Canadian, and they do have a large French population up there.

http://www.glocksunlocked.com/forums/html/emoticons/french.gif
The French

[Skaman]

they do have a large French population up there.

It is really a minority, but whatever false pre-conception you want to cling to is fine with me. The population is not as large as some seem to believe.

[NcDeuce]

http://www.thouck.com/uf/gallery/****inmyass.jpg