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memphiz
11-21-2005, 10:50 AM
Government to announce Tuesday it will proceed with military aircraft purchase

OTTAWA (CP) - The federal government expects to announce Tuesday it will proceed with the $4.6-billion purchase of 16 transport aircraft for the Canadian military, The Canadian Press has learned.
Despite industry protests to the contrary, officials insist the accelerated, streamlined process will be based on open bidding. They say at least two companies - Airbus and Lockheed Martin - are in the running.
The purchase is remarkable because it was part of a larger package that had effectively been shelved one week ago as political dynamite in the days before a federal election. That effort was smothered by competing constituencies in cabinet and corporate Canada.
A relentless series of phone calls from Defence Minister Bill Graham to cabinet colleagues and overseas conversations with Prime Minister Paul Martin travelling in Asia over the past week resurrected a priority portion of the original $12.1-billion purchase.
Defence officials said Graham realized he would have to scale back his wish list if he was going to win anything for the Forces before an election.
"That snake could not swallow that hog at this point," a senior defence official said.
Graham would only say he will take "some elements" of the aircraft package that are generally considered "uncontroversial" to cabinet Monday.
"I spoke to the prime minister in Korea and he encouraged me to proceed," Graham said in an interview.
He said Martin knows the military has a key role to play in Canada's foreign policy and can't do so without the right equipment.
"Certainly, the airlift capacity is a key part of that," said Graham. "Take the Hercules fleet - everybody in the country knows it's coming to the end of its useful life."
A source in the Prime Minister's Office said there has been a fundamental shift in the way Ottawa conducts military procurement.
"This government is not just talking the talk, it's walking the walk," said the senior official. "We have to ensure fairness in any procurement process but, once we have met that condition, there are two principles that guide the PM, the minister and the chief of defence staff.
"First, we must act swiftly. Second, we must serve the needs of the troops, not the defence contractors or lobbyists. Evidence of the government's commitment to the proper equipping of the forces will be on prominent display this week."
Department officials and senior military officers later confirmed Graham will propose a plan to purchase the tactical transport aircraft, widely expected to be Lockheed Martin's C-130J, though they insisted no decision on what aircraft has been made.
The Airbus A-400 is also considered a competitor, though it has some hurdles to overcome, a senior official said.
"This project is Priority No. 1 - for the government, the minister, and the chief," a source said on condition of anonymity.
The performance requirements, obtained by The Canadian Press, say first deliveries are to be as soon as possible but no later than three years, with final deliveries no later than five years from awarding of the contract.
Another official said planners hope first deliveries can be made within 18-24 months. The expenditure would include in-service support for 20 years.
A senior military officer said the reversal is almost too good to be true.
Uniformed staff at National Defence Headquarters are having a hard time believing Graham managed to bring the purchase back from the dead - the political equivalent of what one observer called a "back flip with a twist."
"And to see this happen fast is outstanding. It shows a solid commitment that we're not used to."
The aircraft plan had also included heavy-lift helicopters and search-rescue planes, but officials say corporate lobbyists convinced some key ministers to resist an initiative they argued would open a political Pandora's box in Quebec and Ontario.
In an effort to reduce a procurement period that has averaged 12 years, defence planners have reduced the transport plane's requirements to a single page of performance needs. Similar documents have numbered 17,000 pages.
The Canadian aerospace industry fears that by producing the performance-based requirements, the government is aiming to sole-source the contracts - targeting Italy's C-27J SaR aircraft along with the U.S.-built Hercules tactical transport plane and Chinook heavy-lift helicopter.
"The minute we announced we were going to do this, a whole host of lobbyists descended like locusts on the summer fields and decided to try to eat the fruit before it could grow," Graham said.
He said the lobbying campaign - conducted mainly by ex-generals - began before the performance requirements were even published.
"There was a huge campaign based on a lot on rumours and not on fact . . . because everybody felt they wanted to make sure they had a piece of this," said the minister.
"I was distressed because I felt there were some people around town who would rather derail it than see it happen."
Graham said the NDP announced they would force an election just as he was to present the big package to cabinet.
Cabinet ministers were reminded of what happened when former Tory prime minister Kim Campbell announced a major helicopter purchase just before the 1993 election - it became a tempting political morsel for the Liberals.
"If you get procurement policy mixed up in an election process, it can set the process back rather than further it," said Graham.
Earlier this month, the Conservative defence critic, retired general Gordon O'Connor, said he was concerned the government was rushing the process unnecessarily and made the requirements "so precise only one solution's possible."
But some say the acquisitions are inevitable, have been budgeted for and have such widespread support in Parliament they would be implemented by whichever party wins the election.
O'Connor - the former director of military requirements and an ex-industry lobbyist - said later there is nothing stopping the Liberals from going ahead with plans to replace aircraft.
Officials say the new process, with a single page of performance-based requirements rather than detailed specifications for every nut and bolt, will save $250 million over the project's life.
Lobbyists pay lip service this more streamlined approach but "when the rubber hits the road, it's harder to influence because you have a fewer number of things to influence and they are pretty set in concrete," said one official.
"Before, there were 50,000 things to influence and they weren't necessarily set in concrete. And that's how these guys make their dough."
Some of the military's current Hercules transport aircraft - mid-range planes used to ferry troops, supplies and equipment in and out of theatre - are more than 40 years old.
A senior air force general said Canada is regarded worldwide as the foremost expert in maintaining Hercs with more than 40,000 hours in the air. "We're becoming world leaders in a field of aviation that we don't want to be in."

Kingswat
11-21-2005, 11:59 AM
about ****ing time. Bombardier can stick that in their ass.

ramy
11-21-2005, 01:11 PM
Anyone know what type of planes ? Are we buying them from the US ?
Anyways, lets hope they pull through with their promise..

rocket13
11-21-2005, 01:34 PM
Wow whats going on with this military buildup. Is rumfield aware of this, because this can startel him! A military buildup so close to our boarder.

lol

shadower
11-21-2005, 02:26 PM
They better get something only fighter planes flying are ww2 ones from hamilton museum!

Resevoir Hogs
11-21-2005, 04:51 PM
Actually our fighter planes are CF-18 Hornets.

Here's some pictures of the two planes the article is talking about.

In answer to Ramy's question, Lockheed's C130 is primarily a US plane, Airbus is European.

C-130J
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/lockheed/C130JPy.JPG
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~rafphotos/raf-planes/farn2000/lmc-130j-30h-1.jpg
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~rafphotos/raf-planes/farn2000/lmc-130j-30h-6.jpg
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~rafphotos/raf-planes/farn2000/lmc-130j-30h-4.jpg
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~rafphotos/raf-planes/farn2000/lmc-130j-30h-3.jpg

A-400
http://www.airbusmilitary.com/gallery/a400mdecoys1024.jpg
http://www.airbusmilitary.com/gallery/a400mfinalsturn1024.jpg
http://www.airbusmilitary.com/gallery/a400mdesertland1024.jpg
http://www.airbusmilitary.com/gallery/a400mfighterrefuelling1024.jpg

morkev
11-21-2005, 05:14 PM
I hope it is the new Hercs we get.

-CROAT-SOLDIER-
11-21-2005, 05:16 PM
Thanks for the pictures Resevoir Hogs,Those planes will serve a good little punch to the canadian army too bad they dident buy some apache's or cobra's:P:)...

Little Johnny
11-21-2005, 05:20 PM
There was something on TV about Canadian Grizzlies being delivered to AU peacekeepers in Sudan, and I noticed the plane that they came out of had a Ukrainian flag.

Belrick
11-21-2005, 05:39 PM
Why do they cost so much? $287million per plane? Isnt that a rediculous price? What am i missing here?

Resevoir Hogs
11-21-2005, 06:13 PM
There was something on TV about Canadian Grizzlies being delivered to AU peacekeepers in Sudan, and I noticed the plane that they came out of had a Ukrainian flag.

That's because Canada like many NATO nations sometimes contrats Ukranian transport planes.

Resevoir Hogs
11-21-2005, 06:13 PM
Why do they cost so much? $287million per plane? Isnt that a rediculous price? What am i missing here?

Not at all, theses are complex and high technology aircraft. That's just the price we pay for quality.

Vandervahn
11-21-2005, 06:15 PM
Why do they cost so much? $287million per plane? Isnt that a rediculous price? What am i missing here?

You missed this:


...The expenditure would include in-service support for 20 years.

Kingswat
11-21-2005, 08:24 PM
I hope we get the C-27, saw it at an Airshow last year and it was pretty impressive for a cargo plane.


Or even better, buy a few of each.

Kingswat
11-21-2005, 08:25 PM
Double post, please delete

Resevoir Hogs
11-21-2005, 08:29 PM
I hope we get the C-27, saw it at an Airshow last year and it was pretty impressive for a cargo plane.


Or even better, buy a few of each.

You do realise that the C-27 Spartan isn't being considered for a transpot plane but as a search and rescue plane to replace the buffalo that is in service.

Kingswat
11-21-2005, 08:34 PM
You do realise that the C-27 Spartan isn't being considered for a transpot plane but as a search and rescue plane to replace the buffalo that is in service.



don't forget the c-130's that do SAR, I do know that is what it's being considered for, it still doesn't change the fact that its an awesome little plane.

Resevoir Hogs
11-21-2005, 08:40 PM
don't forget the c-130's that do SAR, I do know that is what it's being considered for, it still doesn't change the fact that its an awesome little plane.

Oh it is but its doesn't have the necessary lift capacity that is needed in the CF for that role.

Arty
11-22-2005, 01:48 AM
Were the A400M pictures real? So far I've only seen artist impressions as the plane has yet to be in production.

Anyways, IMO some C-17s should be considered.

Resevoir Hogs
11-22-2005, 06:38 AM
Were the A400M pictures real? So far I've only seen artist impressions as the plane has yet to be in production.

Anyways, IMO some C-17s should be considered.

They are all CG I couldn't find any real ones, I think its still in the production stage.

Yes C17s should be considered but not as a stand alone replacement, we will still need hercs.

EvanL
11-22-2005, 03:46 PM
They are all CG I couldn't find any real ones, I think its still in the production stage.

Yes C17s should be considered but not as a stand alone replacement, we will still need hercs.
and i still need you

Resevoir Hogs
11-22-2005, 03:51 PM
and i still need you
I told you to stop calling.

Siddar
11-22-2005, 05:28 PM
A400M hasnt made its first flight yet and I doubt Canada could have them in service for atleast five years.

A400M is Really just there to say see we didnt just award contract to Lockheed we had a comptition even though C130 had a lock from the start because of cost and delivery availability.

Putting C17 into mix would make things hard because then they would have two valid choices and huge debate on what type of airlift Canada needs heavy C17 are medium C130 are a mix of the two.

Kingswat
11-22-2005, 05:37 PM
C-17's would be nice too, saw one of those fly at the airshow here and the pilot was handling it like a fighter.

Resevoir Hogs
11-22-2005, 11:42 PM
A400M hasnt made its first flight yet and I doubt Canada could have them in service for atleast five years.

A400M is Really just there to say see we didnt just award contract to Lockheed we had a comptition even though C130 had a lock from the start because of cost and delivery availability.

Putting C17 into mix would make things hard because then they would have two valid choices and huge debate on what type of airlift Canada needs heavy C17 are medium C130 are a mix of the two.

I can see there being a future need for a heavier airlifter like the C17 (my first choice) as well as our lighter tactical transports like the C130.

Just give it time, we are only beginning to get the influx of new money we have been alotted.

Forester
11-23-2005, 05:07 PM
Hopefully we still get all of the aircraft on the list! Has there been any mention of the chinooks we're hopefully getting?

Resevoir Hogs
11-23-2005, 05:09 PM
Hopefully we still get all of the aircraft on the list! Has there been any mention of the chinooks we're hopefully getting?

I believe that is still in the works but is coming.

Noob Brit
11-23-2005, 06:50 PM
A400M hasnt made its first flight yet and I doubt Canada could have them in service for atleast five years.

A400M is Really just there to say see we didnt just award contract to Lockheed we had a comptition even though C130 had a lock from the start because of cost and delivery availability.

Putting C17 into mix would make things hard because then they would have two valid choices and huge debate on what type of airlift Canada needs heavy C17 are medium C130 are a mix of the two.

Have they even cut metal on the A400 yet? I know they've just done the first engine runs and it was due to fly in 2008 but I can't help thinking that's going to slip considerably.

Fat chance of Canada getting the C17 unless they lease like the RAF, it is hugely expensive.

C-130 is really the only option open even if it can't carry half the kit needed. If they wanted true strategic heavylift capability then purchase the AN-124. Every NATO air arm has to charter it regularly (including the US on occasion I believe), it's flown into Basra and Kabul so can get near enough the front lines. It's much more cost efficient than the C17. It's high time NATO established a squadrons worth similar to the shared AWACS fleet but that's another story...

Sadly the best aircraft to meet the needs of many Western airforces missed it's chance. The AN-70/77 would be in service now if Western partners had taken up various proposals and the A400 project would have been killed off by now.

As it is the option is either go EXPENSIVE, get something that doesn't do the job now, or wait a LONG time for the right aircraft to finally come along :-(

Resevoir Hogs
11-23-2005, 11:20 PM
The C-130 is being purchased as a tactical lift aircraft btw not strategic heavylift.

Kingswat
11-24-2005, 01:14 PM
Looks like were not gonna be getting anything for a little while longer since the conservatives did hte no confidence vote today.

Resevoir Hogs
11-24-2005, 05:50 PM
Looks like were not gonna be getting anything for a little while longer since the conservatives did hte no confidence vote today.

Did they? Damnit this election crap is gonna be the end of me.

Kingswat
11-24-2005, 07:06 PM
Did they? Damnit this election crap is gonna be the end of me.


yeah, it's getting kind of old, all you hear about on the news is harper bitching about the liberal's not doing anything productive, yet look at what they have done this year alone. One of hte better years for the CF and pretty much everything else in the country.

Resevoir Hogs
11-24-2005, 07:10 PM
I'm not a liberal by any means but damnit I want this money for our armed forces. If I had to vote soon it'd be a toss up between the liberals and the conservatives.

Kingswat
11-24-2005, 07:18 PM
well the election will be the first week of january i believe.

and considering they are looking to spend $12.1 billion on aircraft alone is great, and even more for the rest of hte military is even better.

Resevoir Hogs
11-24-2005, 07:19 PM
Is Parliament disolved now?

Kingswat
11-24-2005, 07:22 PM
lol, don't think so, I didn't catch the news at 6pm, but its wierd because I saw harper bitching about it around 4pm or so and then there has been nothing on the news updates or anything like that so I'm wondering if he got shut down by the NDP again and went home to cry and drink from his baby bottle.

toad
11-24-2005, 07:39 PM
I don't know if this sheds more light on the canadian issue of no confidence, but FWIW I thought it might...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051124.w2vote11241/BNStory/National/

they surmise that an election could be jan 16

Yeoman
11-24-2005, 07:52 PM
hmmmmmmm..........well being that I was suppose to do a jump last night and the bloody c-130 was broken!
but really? hmmmmmm.................well really we need maybe six type of strategic lifts or so to carry our lav's and all that jazz. and the rest for c-130j's and I'd be happy. course that could be just me.
but hey I'm happy right now knowing that they're considering of replacing the aging hercs right now.
Greg