China New Aircraft--J-10

[yaumanto]

http://www.meyet.com/bbs//UploadFile/2004248465192645.jpg

[Guttorm]

Errr... How 'bout an exterior view?

[mack pl]

I dont belive is that J-10 ;)

[Tengu]

euhm...nice cockpit :|

[notbob]

Some Photos
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/j-10.htm

[Uninen]

J-10, old news.. that joint Chino-Pakistani JF-17 'Thunder' is newer (aka FC-1 or Super 7..).

J-10 (about F-16C/D block 50/52 class..) is among the best, and JF-17 betters F-16A/B models..

That something, but not good enough.. but still, light years better than most of their current hardware..

:|

[usa320]

Avionics look rather European- specifically the right most MFD (the HSI page)...its almost the exact same display seen on Airbus civilian aircraft- it may be the same avionics package.

[mustamato]

That something, but not good enough.. but still, light years better than most of their current hardware..

:|

I don´t think the Su-27/30 is that many lightyears away at all. I´m not
a aviation buff so I don´t know personally, but I´ve heard that they
are pretty good ****. Atleast one thing is for sure, their weapons are
definitively good ****.

Su-30MKK

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/aircraft/fighter/su30_1.jpg
Su-30

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/aircraft/fighter/su30_4.jpg
Su-30 pilot cockpit

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/aircraft/fighter/su30_5.jpg
Su-30 navigator cockpit

Su-27/J-11

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/aircraft/fighter/su27_1.jpg

Their weapons

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/weapon.asp

[Uninen]

mustamato,

'Most', they have very few Su-27/30s..

Their bulk is build of J-6s and J-7s.. these are MiG-19 and MiG-21 F-13 clones.. from hell (1950s and 1960s..).

:lol:

[mustamato]

mustamato,

'Most', they have very few Su-27/30s..

Their bulk is build of J-6s and J-7s.. these are MiG-19 and MiG-21 F-13 clones.. from hell (1950s and 1960s..).

:lol:

They will eventually have several hundreds of them, and in conflicts like
in example over the Korea peninsula or Taiwan there will not be any use
of 20.000 aircrafts in the sky anyway. And I doubt that there will be any
major war against Russia or something like that in the nearest decades,
where the J-"one digit" museum aircrafts could be used.

By the way, my hometowns own Air Force:

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/mig3.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/mig1.jpg
And you say that J-7´s are not modern!!!! Note the "JAS"-grafitti by
the way. Since some hooligans have destroyed the canopy I have had the
chance of actually sitting in a real MiG as well. A lots of space, not.

Do you know what version it is? Something from the early 80´s I guess?

[Uninen]

Thats most likely MiG-21 MF or BIS.. and that is 20 years newer than the J-7 concept..

:lol:

But it could also be MiG-21 M or SMT but theres not that many build of those..

[cold0]

At present the PLAAF is huge and obsolete -at least a large part of it. But the Chines are moving towards modernisation at a quick pace.

In october 2003 JDW has said that the "Sukhoi and the Technocomplex group of Russian avionics companies" have already delivered 100 upgrade kits over the past 2 years to the PLAAF to upgrade them to the Su-27SM standard, which was just recently seen at MAKS 2003.

So 100 J-11s (Su-27) are already constructed five months ago.

[Damn]

I'm surprised someone still hasn't posted an actual external pic of the J-10 (since this is a thread about it), which will become the backbone of the PLAAF in the near future.

Well, here it is:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/j-10_001.jpg

[Javehn]

Nice aircraft , Jianji 10 . It could be "Lavi" ...

[-Max2-]

J-10 (about F-16C/D block 50/52 class..)

I dont think so. IMHO, F-16C/D Block 50/52 are superior to the J-10. USAF F-16C/D (and Europeans F-16AM/BM as well) are updated almost every year (JHMCS helmet for example) while the J-10 use mainly 80s technology...

Just look at the F-16C/D weaponry: AIM-120C AMRAAM, AIM-9X Sidewinder (soon), JDAM, AGM-154, GBU-12/16/24 Paveway, etc. The J-10, in comparison, can carry only a limited number of weapons...(and not as advanced)

And with the arrival of next generation fighters like the F/A-22 Raptor and Eurofighter Typhoon, the J-10 will becomes totally obsolete...

[Uninen]

Uhm..

I suggest that YOU take a look at J-10s armament.. R-73 and R-77 in their variants, those are at this moment best AAMs on the planet, and even AIM-9X or Meteor wont better them when issued.. :|

[-Max2-]

I suggest that YOU take a look at J-10s armament.. R-73 and R-77 in their variants, those are at this moment best AAMs on the planet, and even AIM-9X or Meteor wont better them when issued..

Unlike the AIM-120 AMRAAM and the AIM-9L/M Sidewinder, the R-73 and R-77 are not battle proven...

[Uninen]

They have been used in combat, R-73 at least, and it has downed aircrafts.. also it has been tested by USAF and Luftwaffe (export version of it..) and even that proved supperior to anything that west has.. :)

[-Max2-]

They have been used in combat, R-73 at least, and it has downed aircrafts..

Source ?


also i has been tested by USAF and Luftwaffe (export version of it..) and even that proved supperior to anything that west has..

Superior to the AIM-7 Sparrow and the "standard" AIM-9L/M Sidewinder, OK, but against next generation missiles like the Meteor, AIM-120C AMRAAM, AIM-9X (with the JHCMS helmet) and ASRAAM, no way... All these new Western missiles were just conceived to counter the threat posed by the R-73 and the R-77...

[Uninen]

http://www.acig.org/ <- Iraq, Yugoslavia, Etiopia and Eritrea at least have used R-73 in combat.

And R-77 and R-73.. their newest variants will still be supperior when new western AAMs are issued, at least performance vise.. about ECCM capability, i dont know.

Meteor = Range: +100km, speed: 4 mach

R-77 = Range: +100km

R-77 = +160km

And R-77s speed: 4,5 mach? this is the figure i remember, correct me if im wrong..

R-73 lastest version in Russian use:

Range 40km, lock on 'view' 120 degrees.

Only western AAM that beats either of these is Python 4 and 5 which are more agile.

[cold0]

The R-73 was used in the Ethiopian-Eirtrean war. The Ethiopian SU-27s shooted down 5 Mig-29s, at least 3 with the Archer. Contrary the AA-10 Alamo, in all his version, performed really poorly (the same PK of US Sparrow in Vietnam). The Alamo, used by the 2 sides, are export versions but it's low PK isn't a good news anyway.

It's difficul to give a judment about the R-77; the weapon isn't battle proven and there aren't many datas to value its active sensor. But I agree with uninen that, teorically, the range of R-77 is superior than AIM_120's range.

For western missiles the Meteor was project to be cleary superior than R-77 (ramjet motor, adavanced ECCM...), but it will be operative only in 2008.

For the WVR arena the AIM-9X is in service now (with F-15C), and yes its superior than Archer (probably the best weapon in the categoty is the new Pythoon 5). But the superiority of WVR missile against of another is relativy at best; now all these weapons have advanced IIR sensors and are very agile. It's no difficult to image that, in future WVR scenarios, many fighters kill each others firing advanced IIR missiles, exspecially in head-on battles.

[-Max2-]

Thanks for your infos, Coldo. BTW, didn't know that the R-73 was used in the Ethiopian-Eritrean war... :|

[Uninen]

Yeah, there was Ukrainian and Russian mercs flying Su-27s and MiG-29s there.. on different sides of course.. ;)

[cold0]

Cleary I don't have all the infos about the Eritrea_Ethiopia conflict but, if I remember correctly, the Ethiopia used ex- Urss pilots (manly russians), but Eritrea (that bought her Fulcrum in Uckraine) used only national pilots, inferior than Eritrean mercs.
In the first ait-to-air battle an ethiopian famale pilot shooted down (with the gun) her ex-istructor flying a disarmed erithrean Mig-29B. It could been pure fiction but you can find the story at www.acid.org.

[Frens]

:cantbeli: it seems like a bad clone of the Typhoon :roll:

[cold0]

Hi Frens,

in realty the J-11 was heavy influenced by isreal Lavi (and the China industry was helped by isreal techs). Our Typhoon is a completely different beast, but the J-11 is good fighter, in the class of F-16 40/42 (but I can say anything about J-11 avionics).
Anyway the China has made a quantum leap in fighter development with the J-11.

[Frens]

hi cold!!!
...intendevo dire esteticamente mi ricorda molto il typhoon ;)

[Uninen]

cold0,

Its J-10 that were talking about here, J-11 is Chinese name for Su-27 Flanker.. ;)

[Javehn]

But he is right , our dying "Lavi" was transformed to Jianji - 10 .

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/aircraft/fighter/j10.asp

[mustamato]

I wonder which one is the best fighter, the modernized J-11 or the J-10.
By political reasons (because it´s chinese) the J-10 will probably be considered
as the "backbone" of the PLAAF, but will it really be it? And with fighter
I mean "interceptor". The Su-30MKK is atleast a better ground-attack
plane than the J-10 without any doubt.

[Uninen]

mustamato,

You really should not compare these two, as these are light and heavy fighter, and their supposed missions are very different.. ;)

[mustamato]

mustamato,

You really should not compare these two, as these are light and heavy fighter, and their supposed missions are very different.. ;)

Of course, I was thinking more of the "backbone of the PLAAF"-claim by Damn on page 1.

[Uninen]

Isnt the "backbone" always the aircraft that has numbers on its side.. ;) we will just have to wait and see.. :)

[Xingbake]

The 1st officially go public J-10 picture by CAC

http://jczsbbs1.sina.com.cn/upload/5/26/20040127/60781/60781.jpg

[Xingbake]

And it is believed that a small amount of J-10(~10 to 20) have already been delivered to PLAAF for experience. The ship-board varation of J-10 is also under development.

http://www.meyet.com/bbs/UploadFile/2003111113225536387.jpg
http://www.meyet.com/bbs/UploadFile/2003111113264970836.jpg

[cold0]

Sorry Uninem I have made a typo. I refer to the chinese fighter the J-10 and not to Sukoi builded in China. the J-11.

Today the PLAF have 3 versions of the Suhoi fighter; the standard SU-27 (upgraded in 1-2 years at the SM standard), the locally builded J-11, and the advanced SU-30MKK (I think that they would received the first one soon) .

For the air-to-air missile topics, the new R-73, with lock on 'view' 120 degrees, is called R-74. The Russian have developed a rear-firing version of this weapon and, probably, it will become operative with the new SU-34.

For the R-77, the max range against a "collaborative" target (flying high, slow, unmonovrable in head-on engagement) is 70 km (superior to the max range of the aim-120).
Actually Vympel is working to a new version of R-77 with ramjet propulsion, with a max range classificated but compatible with the Meteor.

[DE_Six]

I'd wait a little bit before discarding the AIM-9X. On paper, it may looks like it lacks in terms of FOV and warhead compared to others (and then only slightly), but it promises to perform very well in high countermeasures environments, which is not to be overlooked given the advances made in that area (TW and self-protection). Let's see how it performs in combat first (if it ever gets the chance to, since BVR is the name of the game nowadays). For now, the best IR AAM in service, IMHO, are the Israeli Python 4, and the Python 5 looks very promising.

As far as BVR goes, I think the future champion will be a ramjet-propelled missile, like the BVRAAM Meteor.
http://www.global-defence.com/2000/images/meteor3.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/bvraam.htm

Only ramjet will have the potential to strike as far as latest generation radars can see. Rocket boosters do not have the autonomy and power to project the warhead far enough, fast enough the way ramjet can, unless they are of massive proportion, like the AIM-54 or the R33.

A link to pics of the AIM-9X high CM environment tests
http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/weapons/ai_missiles/aim_9/aim9x/aim9x_en.htm

[Xingbake]

Actually China has three versons of Su-27: Su-27SK, Su-27UBK and Su-27SMK. And J-11 is based on Su-27SMK. According to some not proven reports, J-11b, with local electronic equipement, is also under development.

J-11 with R-27 missile

http://airkiller.myrice.com/pla/gfx/su27/su27ubk_r27_1.jpg

Ceremony of 1st finished J-11

http://airkiller.myrice.com/pla/gfx/su27/j11_1.jpg

PLAAF's Su-30MKK

http://airkiller.myrice.com/pla/gfx/su30/su30_7.jpg

[cold0]

DE 6 I don't understimed the Sidewinder X; it's indeed very good in WVR scenario and far superior to the standard R-73. I 'm just saying the WVR scenario is becoming very lethal even for advanced aircrafts, when the dodfight starts is very difficul to disengage.

For whom is interessed to the Phytoon/Archer debate here is a good link

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/python4.html


ThankX xingbake for the photos: have you any idea of the effective number of SU-27 versions in service with PLAF and Chinese Navy Air Force (sorry but I don't remember the english name of chinese navy)? ;)

[Xingbake]

So far Su-27, including J-11, only serves in PLAAF. China has bought ~80 Su-27 and~60 Su-30MKK from Russia and will produce ~200 J-11 under licence.

For the PLA Navy Air Force(I hope this is its correct English name :roll: ), it is belived they will be equiped with two engine version of J-10 that is under development. Today the most advanced fighter of the Navy Air Force is JF-7 that was developped by China itself.

http://airkiller.myrice.com/pla/gfx/fbc1/fbc1_2.jpg
http://airkiller.myrice.com/pla/gfx/fbc1/fbc1_5.jpg
http://airkiller.myrice.com/pla/gfx/fbc1/fbc1.jpg

[cold0]

Thanx for the infos! woot

[StealthMode]

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/j10new.jpg
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/j10_12.jpg

"Built by the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation, the J-10 attempts to rival current fourth-generation Western fighters. A single-engine, single-seat design, the multi-role J-10 will represent a significant capability advance for the People's Liberation Army Air Force, which will operate it alongside its future fleet of Russian-built and licence-manufactured Sukhoi Su-27SK interceptors. Likely armaments for the design include a number of systems from Israel and Russia as well as licence-built Chinese weapons."

[DLodge]

There's been a lot of talk where someone writes that "such and such missile has a range of this and combined with such and such seeker head clearly is superior to this other missile..." That's ridiculous. Accurately comparing AAMs is impossible unless you are privy to all the classified information most of us will never see. The truth is that, except for the folks who use them, nobody knows what the capabilities of the AMRAAM and the AIM-9X really are.

I do, however, know this. When American fighter pilots are asked whether a "missile gap" between U.S. and Russian AAMs exists:

1) They look at me as though I'm stupid (well, no change there)
2) They laugh and look at me as though I am stupid
3) They tell me I'm stupid if I believe that's true
4) They tell me that whoever wrote that or told me that must be stupid

So, I get in the impression that those in the know afford this argument very little credit at all.

[Uninen]

:roll: :petting: :cantbeli:

R-73 and R-77 are supperior. And this is not a matter of argument, as you cant argue a fact.

:slap:

[cold0]

....... in range, yes!

For the other capacities of modern missiles, there's some thuth in what DLodge is saying.
Many are just speculations, but some are not a matter of argument.

For example, USAF are tried for many years the Archer (with German help) against is fighters, have developed the aim-9x to be superior to in any aspects (but not the range) to the R-73, and now the Americans have the short range missile that they want.

But it's impossible to compare the new sidewinder with the R-74. Some missiles are developed with different operative idea, for example the british AIM-132 is thinked to kill the enemy aircraft before the enemy engage a dogfight.

In the end with can compare two or more weapon systems only if we have all datas or one part declare that the OPFOR equivalent is cleary superior (example AIM-9L/M against R-73 in the '90s)

Regards,