Secret CIA Flights Won't Go Away

[Weasel]

Reports keep coming of covert CIA flights through Europe that carry terrorist suspects to places where torture is legal. A German paper on Friday reports that they haven't stopped, which could be awkward for Angela Merkel if she wants to make nice with Washington.

As Angela Merkel travels the European circuit this week to introduce herself to other world leaders, an early -- and unwanted -- foreign-policy crisis keeps shaping up at home. Newspapers in Germany and Austria have reported new details almost daily about CIA flights to remote locations in Eastern Europe and the Middle East where suspected (but uncharged) terrorists may have been tortured.

On Tuesday, the Berliner Zeitung reported that American airbases in Germany had been used as pit stops for at least six secret flights (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,386338,00.html), including the two most high-profile missions in the unfolding story of so-called "extraordinary renditions." For some time it's been suspected that a high-profile terrorist named Abu Omar -- spirited off the streets of Milan by CIA agents in early 2003, according to criminal charges in an Italian court -- was transferred from one plane to another at the Ramstein base, en route to Cairo. This week the Berlin paper reported that a Hercules C-130 landed at Frankfurt around the same time, refuelled, and took off for Baku, Azerbaijan. That flight led to an official complaint from Vienna after it showed up unexpectedly on Austrian radar.

German officials assumed this rash of flights had ended; but on Friday the business daily Handelsblatt quotes a U.S. intelligence source claiming that "nothing has changed." Handelsblatt adds that American intelligence sources have also confirmed the existence of two secret prisons in Romania and Poland, where suspected terrorists were interrogated by CIA agents. (EU investigators are looking for satellite pictures of those camps.) "Similar 'black sites' reportedly exist in other European countries," writes the paper.

Investigations into similar flights have started all over Europe -- in Spain, Sweden, Iceland, and Britain, among other countries -- and the EU has asked for details from all its member nations. In Berlin, a member of the opposition Free Democrats thinks Merkel's new foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, needs to raise a stink with the U.S. ambassador. "If the allegations are true," Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger told the Berliner Zeitung last week, "that would be outrageous."

And embarrassing for Merkel. The theme of her tour through Europe this week is that she wants to mend relations with Washington. The Bush Administration denies it has done anything illegal, so lodging a human-rights complaint would be a tough way for Merkel and her foreign ministry to kick off a new term.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,druck-386824,00.html

Time to raise your voice, Angie. ;-)

[C3F]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,druck-386824,00.html

Time to raise your voice, Angie. ;-)


Weasel, do you REALLY think that if the entire public and every Intl. news agency knows about these "flights", the CIA would continue the same MO? It's laughable that the media will criticise Government "sources" (any Govt. not just U.S.) but when it comes to doing homework on their OWN sources, their a little loose.

[CombatBoots]

Is the fvcken spiegel... Get your own damn opinion, conspiracy theory bollocks flourish even in the winter aye?

[Drako]

It's interesting that news agencies know exactly what planes belong to CIA, know their numbers and know about all their flights. Also I don't believe we have any "torture camps" in here. Poland isn't a big country and such a facility wouldn't remain unnoticed. Also noone would be stupid enough to agree for that and break our constitution and international law. If it was revealed it would mean a huge cleanings in our military and political ranks. They wouldn't avoid punishment because whole world would be watching the process. That theory is one of the most stupid things I heard this year...

[ogukuo72]

That's the wonderful thing about the media. If they repeat the same thing often enough, people will start believeing in them. Same with these CIA flights. If the media repeat them often enough, sooner or later, some people are going to accept that it's the TRUTH.

[CombatBoots]

Gullible lefties like Weasel. I hope you are wearing your tinfoil hat, and don't take them mind control drugs contained in Coca Cola.

[Weasel]

Weasel, do you REALLY think that if the entire public and every Intl. news agency knows about these "flights", the CIA would continue the same MO? It's laughable that the media will criticise Government "sources" (any Govt. not just U.S.) but when it comes to doing homework on their OWN sources, their a little loose.
The reason I posted this article was not that I want to stop possible flights and I don´t wanted to accuse anybody.
The reason for posting this article is that I would be glad about a government, or better the european union, speaking with one voice and demanding to know what the US does on european soil. I would like to see more opposition against the US (and Russia, but that´s another story).

But of course I am realistic and know that business comes first, morality afterwards. ;-)

[WarriorMonk]

The reason I posted this article was not that I want to stop possible flights and I don´t wanted to accuse anybody.
The reason for posting this article is that I would be glad about a government, or better the european union, speaking with one voice and demanding to know what the US does on european soil. I would like to see more opposition against the US (and Russia, but that´s another story).

But of course I am realistic and know that business comes first, morality afterwards. ;-)

Thanks for coming out of the closet for us, but okay.

[Weasel]

Thanks for coming out of the closet for us, but okay.
Political opposition. Hard to accept?

[CombatBoots]

Hey... Don't be so harsh on Weasel... We all need him to make us stop and think from time to time, otherwise we'd be rambo 3 all over again. :)

[Weasel]

Hey... Don't be so harsh on Weasel... We all need him to make us stop and think from time to time, otherwise we'd be rambo 3 all over again. :)
Nah, better don´t think.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit."
Book of Matthew, Chapter 5:3

[CombatBoots]

rofl Wow... I shall burn all my books at once.

[Weasel]

rofl Wow... I shall burn all my books at once.
Two comic books don´t make a big fire. p-)

[WarriorMonk]

Political opposition. Hard to accept?

I was thinking your opposition = pure "lets-whack-every-American-now-they-threaten-world-peace" anti-American kind of deal...

[Dexx]

Two comic books don´t make a big fire. p-)

p0wnd him :D

[Weasel]

I was thinking your opposition = pure "lets-whack-every-American-now-they-threaten-world-peace" anti-American kind of deal...
Your thinking is too one-dimensional. :)

[WarriorMonk]

Your thinking is too one-dimensional. :)

I only dabble in politics, I'm a Biology major, what else do you expect?

[CombatBoots]

two? I got loads of them... p-)

[AFJROTC55]

well, i would just like to say that even if the CIA is doing what the liberals say they do, these so called "torture" flights, which they probably arent, even if they were, a little roughing up never hurt anyone, its not like we're going after they're families or anything, lets screw with em a little bit, no pain, no gain, however there is a flip side to this, if you hurt em to much, they'll tell you anything you want to hear just to get you off their fanny.

please rebut or expound
thanks
1*

[joe mama]

...This week the Berlin paper reported that a Hercules C-130 landed at Frankfurt around the same time, refuelled, and took off for Baku, Azerbaijan...

My god, if that isn't the most thrillingly in depth and thorough piece of investigative journalism in the history of mankind, I don't know what is. A paper reports that a plane landed around the same time as when another plane is allegded to have landed...well that's it...I'm convinced.

[Creeper]

So some guy walks past a store front,, takes a whiff of the punget air,,And he sez,"smells likes donuts cooking inside that store.",,, therefore; there MUST be donuts inside that store.
?

[Weasel]

...This week the Berlin paper reported that a Hercules C-130 landed at Frankfurt around the same time, refuelled, and took off for Baku, Azerbaijan...

My god, if that isn't the most thrillingly in depth and thorough piece of investigative journalism in the history of mankind, I don't know what is. A paper reports that a plane landed around the same time as when another plane is allegded to have landed...well that's it...I'm convinced.
Eyes wide shut. rofl

Different and independent human rights organizations accuse the CIA for such flights since years. Now european laws are dodged and I expect my government to protest against this shameful behaviour.

In combination to these flights it is interesting that the white house possibly will veto a law, already adopted by the parliament, that prohibits the agencies the inhuman treatment of prisoners.

[FallenAngel]

Eyes wide shut. rofl

Different and independent human rights organizations accuse the CIA for such flights since years. Now european laws are dodged and I expect my government to protest against this shameful behaviour.

In combination to these flights it is interesting that the white house possibly will veto a law, already adopted by the parliament, that prohibits the agencies the inhuman treatment of prisoners.

Years of allegations you say? Did they ever come up with anything other than conjecture based on circumstance?

European laws being dodged? How so? Is the US now required to tell the EU what every jet is carrying, to where and what will happen to the cargo when it gets to it's destination?

[Weasel]

Years of allegations you say? Did they ever come up with anything other than conjecture based on circumstance?
Nobody was interested. Who cares as far as if we are not affected? [sarcasm] I am glad to see the madia putting some pressure on european governments.


European laws being dodged? How so? Is the US now required to tell the EU what every jet is carrying, to where and what will happen to the cargo when it gets to it's destination?
If european airports and/or prisons were used to imprison suspects illegally, maybe torture them, then we have the right to know what happened. It´s our soil and we don´t want to be exploited by those who can´t differ between wrong and right.

[Greek soldier]

Greeks newspaper "Vima of Sunday" says that at least 6 times (!!) a leased Gulfstream airplane, either known as "Guantanamo Express" came to Athens International Airport.
Seems that Europe is a CIA protectorate :fork:

[joe mama]

Eyes wide shut. rofl

Different and independent human rights organizations accuse the CIA for such flights since years. Now european laws are dodged and I expect my government to protest against this shameful behaviour.

In combination to these flights it is interesting that the white house possibly will veto a law, already adopted by the parliament, that prohibits the agencies the inhuman treatment of prisoners.

Amusing how if I criticize the "evidence", I have my eyes wide shut...yet you seem to be able to keep your eyes wide shut to any criticism of the evidence. Go back and read what I said again...a paper is reporting that a C-130 may have landed and took off around the same time that something else is reported to have landed and taken off. Isn't there still a significant USAF presence in Europe? Aren't there lots of C-130's taking off and landing all the time? I don't have the slightest issue with the media here or in Europe, and, more importantly, your governments looking into what's going on, but I need to see a little more than somebody else reports that a plane may have landed at some time that we think something happened! I'll bet you anything there were German police driving to and/or from that airport around that same time, does that mean they were involved? And there may have been a grandmother boiling water at the time...was she preparing it to use as a torture device for the prisoners that may have been on the plane that may have landed?
If they've got something more concrete than some plane may have done this when some other plane may have done that, but the CIA is evil therefore it's true, then maybe they should print it. If there are other stories that say that, with some kind of legimate evidence, then that's great, but that is NOT what's in this story.

[caridon]

Years of allegations you say? Did they ever come up with anything other than conjecture based on circumstance?

How about that our security service (SÄPO) and our foreign minister helped CIA send 2 persons to egypt for torture in 2001.
Only reason the goverment got away with it was that they could shift the blame to Anna Lindh who was already dead when the story broke.

is that proof enough ?

Links in swedish. use fish or translator.
/C

http://www.tv4.se/nyheter/384130.html
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=145&a=267125
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1042&a=355821&previousRenderType=8

[Prometheus]

Solution is very easy:

cancel the deployment agreement between the US and Germany, close all US bases on German soil and send the US Forces back to America. No problems anymore.

BTW: I bet these stories are true, torturing prisoners and transporting abducted people all over the globe to secret an unlawfull installations is something that would match perfectly in the picture of the current US government. Just think about that Bush wants to use his veto on a law against torturing prisoners...

[ed316]

without any evidence this is nothing, but speculations.

[Jobu]

The European intel agencies are in on it.

It's just convenient to blame the CIA and make accusations with no proof. It's the CIA, you can blame them for the comet that hit Jupiter and a large majority of Yurps would believe it.