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KB
11-26-2005, 04:18 PM
Our unconscious minds know the truth: the war is lost. We must get out

Matthew Parris
Mathew Parris is a former Conservative MP (1979-1986)

PHONEY WAR describes the period of unreal peace — sometimes lengthy — before a widely expected war actually starts. Those who were then alive remember very keenly the phoney war at the start of the Second World War. The Gospels speak of “wars and rumours of wars” and people who live through both know that rumour of war can be as edgy a time as the real thing; sometimes more so.

Oddly enough, rumour of armistice can be equally unsettling. The phoney peace — the period after the likely outcome of a conflict has become apparent, but before hostilities have actually ceased — is often protracted and nerve-racking. This is especially true for dispirited troops, and for those who worry for them. Whatever they do will not alter the outcome, yet they are in as much personal danger as if the war were in an early and critical phase. They can still die, but without the comfort that their sacrifice could have made any difference. Those they leave behind will be haunted in bereavement by the feeling that their fallen fell pointlessly.

Of course commanding officers and the politicians who lead them have ready the sort of pep talk that must rightly serve. We could all write it. “Steady as she goes . . . leave in a timely and ordered manner . . . chaos if we jump the gun . . . highest duty to see things through to the bitter end . . .”

. . . But bitter indeed for those who fall when that end is in sight. They perished when nothing (it seemed) made any difference anyway.

This may not be logical but it is how people feel. Until that point when a nation thinks it can see how a conflict will be resolved, we can tell ourselves that because we thought our cause right, because we did not know how things would end and because victory might have depended on our efforts, the fight was noble, whatever history may later say of its chances. That “history” should “speak” may sound colourful but it is how people think.

In Iraq I believe history will soon have spoken. Therefore, the reputations of the politicians leading the coalition powers are entering an exceptionally dangerous phase: dangerous in a new way.

My view runs counter to a consensus emerging among many commentators. The consensus (both among those who supported and opposed the invasion of Iraq) is persuasive. It says that in terms of political “capital”, there is little left to be gained or lost from Iraq as a domestic controversy in Britain and America. It accepts that the outlook in Iraq itself is not encouraging, but questions what further impact this is likely to have on the fortunes of those who led the invasion.

A core of opinion (says this consensus) holds that the invasion was a crime and a blunder; the other core holds that it was the right thing to do; both cores are now fairly impregnable to impact from future facts. Everybody agrees that what’s done is done; and those who turned against their political leaders because of the war have done so already. Anti-war parties have already taken their profits from the investment they made in opposing the war; pro-war parties like new Labour and the Conservatives have already taken their knocks. Hostilities may or may not continue, but domestic politics has moved on. The Iraq factor can therefore be more or less removed from domestic contests still to come.

To join me in challenging this consensus you will have to accept my unspoken main premise: that nobody seriously now thinks the invasion and occupation of Iraq was a good idea or is going anywhere useful. You will not lack for evidence against my view. Take Tony Blair. Probably he thinks he thinks he was right, though I doubt anyone else in the Cabinet does. Among the commentariat, admirable figures such as David Aaronovitch, Michael Gove, Daniel Finkelstein and whoever writes the leading articles for this newspaper and others remain as gallant as they are eloquent in their support for the war and occupation.

But people have unconscious minds and a nation has a collective unconscious. It is possible to consult an unconscious mind but you must be armed not with a questionnaire and a pencil, but a tape recorder and stop-watch. Don’t ask “Are we right: yes or no?” or the conscious man will at once tick the “yes” box. Ask instead: “Imagine you were to wake up tomorrow and realise all this invasion of Iraq stuff had just been a dream. Would your waking thought be ‘Aargh! Bad news. We aren’t in Iraq after all. We must occupy that country at once — no time to lose!’ Is that what you’d think?”

Even to that question, expect the conscious man, if he’s on record as supporting the war, to work out that logic requires a “yes”. Ignore his answer. Instead, time the delay before he gives it, and listen for the hesitation in his voice. Here is the unconscious mind speaking. All the rest is a mix of pride, loyalty, self-justification and the urge to sound consistent.

Come on, chaps. It proved a mistake and in your hearts you know it. In return for your admitting as much, we who opposed the war should concede with better grace than we have, that you who supported it genuinely followed conscience and intellect in the stand you took. It might have worked out; it might have achieved its aim; that did seem possible. At one time even I thought success quite likely.

Through all that period our political leaders have a strong defence in the dock of history: their war was for aims that seemed achievable and in which they profoundly believed. A president or prime minister may rightly send men to die in such a war, and with a clear conscience. The men, if they have chosen to be soldiers, may be expected to face death knowing that they are part of a force which may change the world for the better, sent by their masters in good faith.

But what when that belief has gone? Among the most idiotic questions that polling organisations have put to the public was “Should our troops stay in Iraq until liberal democracy is safe in Iraq’s own hands?” Well of course — if that is an available prize.

But is it? That is the only question. This winter there will be the slow shifting of our collective conscious mind as a nation behind the position already occupied by our collective unconscious: that the war is lost. The occupation didn’t work. Only the order of retreat remains to be settled.

That will create a new situation. Any suggestion that the pullout is being delayed for reasons of political pride, that the timetable is being driven by a need to protect prime ministers’ rears and that the dignity of politicians rather than safety of troops are what’s most important at stake, will be desperately destructive of reputations. That London is ready to withdraw but Washington is not, leaving the British contingent stranded in Basra against the better judgment of our own ministers would be a serious charge.

The allegation that London and Washington are letting events take their course, preferring to shift with a shifting popular consensus, rather than anticipate it, saving the lives of troops and cutting losses, is a grave one. So is the charge that London is waiting for Washington to move.

It is a mite early to make such allegations. Maybe Jalal Talabani, the President of Iraq, did not really believe his preposterous claim that the Iraqi army could be ready next year to replace ours — but was reflecting coalition partners’ private resolve to withdraw, ready or not.

I hope so. Whenever we leave, Iraq will not be ready. The longer we stay the more of our people will die. Phoney peaces take real lives and they will cost more politically than lives lost in a battle still undecided. Stand not upon the order of your going, London and Washington, but go.

vlun
11-26-2005, 04:44 PM
this columnist needs to see iraq first hand instead of staying in a cozy warm apartment. he needs to re educate himself of the history and mentality of saddam and his two sons and the fedayeen. this pretty much goes for all anti iraq war protestors.

The iraqis are good people, and it's terrible that we have people like al queda who likes to s#@t on everything and then hide like little girls and the koran in some little cold cave

v-d0g

rocket13
11-26-2005, 05:02 PM
As much as i dont like the war, stupid **** like this pisses me off more. The war is far from lost.

Musashi
11-26-2005, 05:21 PM
As much as i dont like the war, stupid **** like this pisses me off more. The war is far from lost.
Yeah, these fvckas should be hung for spreading defeatism. I don't approve Poland's involvement in this war from the beginning of our mission (just because I don't understand its purpose), but what was started should be finished. In other case the Coalition will become the laughing stock of the rest of the world and terrorists.

vryhpyammoadded
11-26-2005, 05:22 PM
Oh, I’m feeling all glassy eyed and dreamy. Let’s all drop our weapons and leave Iraq now. “What if they had a war and nobody came” Kumbyah…, Kumbyah…:roll:

usm2b
11-26-2005, 05:34 PM
http://lindasog.com/pics/whoneedsoil.jpg

my gosh its a moonbat!

deccantrap
11-26-2005, 05:39 PM
this columnist needs to see iraq first hand instead of staying in a cozy warm apartment. v-d0g

Mathew Parris is a former MP. He has definately seen more of life than you have.

cut
11-26-2005, 05:46 PM
this columnist needs to see iraq first hand instead of staying in a cozy warm apartment. he needs to re educate himself of the history and mentality of saddam and his two sons and the fedayeen. this pretty much goes for all anti iraq war protestors.

The iraqis are good people, and it's terrible that we have people like al queda who likes to s#@t on everything and then hide like little girls and the koran in some little cold cave

v-d0g

Matthew Parris has been to Iraq and Afghanistan, he's a conservative and the Times has been a Rupert Murdoch newspaper since 1981.

So don't write it off as liberal ranting because you would be slightly off the mark.

cut
11-26-2005, 05:47 PM
http://lindasog.com/pics/whoneedsoil.jpg

my gosh its a moonbat!

same goes for you

Omaha
11-26-2005, 06:12 PM
I don't think (Dear God I hope..)anyone here agrees with this guy. Right?


Regardless of what he has done in his past, it is easy over shadowed with this literary diarrhea.

cut
11-26-2005, 06:55 PM
I don't think (Dear God I hope..)anyone here agrees with this guy. Right?

In general no, I disagree with Matthew Parris' article, but once you actually get down to reading it, he makes some very good points. So I'm also going to disagree with those who claim he just talking rubbish.

sickofpretenders
11-26-2005, 07:48 PM
What good points are they? The whole article boiled down to: its unpopular and didnt go as planned so screw the country and lets leave.

He is of course taking the assumptions that a withdrawal will not embolden terrorists around the world.

He also assumes that Iraq has no chance at democracy at all (because after years of oppression they should pick it up overnight right?) and so we should just let the whole country turn into massive civil war that its neighbours can sort out and divide up.

Meanwhile there will be nobody mad at the CF for taking an oppressed country and turning it in the most dangerous place in the world, and no one brave enough to take out that anger (which of course they wont have) on the participating countries.

So yeah! what a winner of a man, I am with him, lets pull out and save armedpacafist and his friends from seeing nasty news. All the terrists of the world will see that there is no need to fight anymore as their goals have been achieved (whoops, but they havent), lay down their arms and world peace will begin. YAY.

vlun
11-26-2005, 09:09 PM
sorry everyone if I ranted off in the wrong direction about this perry guy. This is a democracy, he has an opinion, and I guess I have to respect it.

war is crap, that's for sure.
v-d0g

Apathy
11-26-2005, 09:34 PM
We lost the war because Matthew Parris said so. And as we all know Matthew Parris is a tractor and all tractors are gods and gods can never be incorrect. Why look at what he did to Canada? He said, "Thou shalt have maple" and POOF maple started coming out of the trees like milk from a mother's bosom. Now you're probably asking how you can become a tractor. Well, all you have to do is cut off your *****, lie about how the war is going, and become a liberal. Oh...and pulling **** out of your ass, while sitting behind a computer monitor can also help as well.

This message was brought to you by the Omega7.

Howitz
11-26-2005, 09:45 PM
sorry everyone if I ranted off in the wrong direction about this perry guy. This is a democracy, he has an opinion, and I guess I have to respect it.

war is crap, that's for sure.
v-d0g

No, the government has to allow him to express it, you don't have to do ****.

cut
11-26-2005, 10:05 PM
What good points are they? The whole article boiled down to: its unpopular and didnt go as planned so screw the country and lets leave.

He is of course taking the assumptions that a withdrawal will not embolden terrorists around the world.

He also assumes that Iraq has no chance at democracy at all (because after years of oppression they should pick it up overnight right?) and so we should just let the whole country turn into massive civil war that its neighbours can sort out and divide up.

Meanwhile there will be nobody mad at the CF for taking an oppressed country and turning it in the most dangerous place in the world, and no one brave enough to take out that anger (which of course they wont have) on the participating countries.

So yeah! what a winner of a man, I am with him, lets pull out and save armedpacafist and his friends from seeing nasty news. All the terrists of the world will see that there is no need to fight anymore as their goals have been achieved (whoops, but they havent), lay down their arms and world peace will begin. YAY.

what did I say? I said I disagreed in a general sense but there are good points, then you start your post with:


What good points are they? The whole article boiled down to

The good points he makes are to do what people think the future of Iraq is going to be like, everyone knows there is a only a chance of this working out. The best case scenario a democratic Iraq, worst case scenario is civil war. Now if the only acceptable outcome is democracy in Iraq we're setting ourselves pretty high goals (realistically), I'm not saying there's going to be civil war in Iraq but there's a whole spectrum of possibilities between the two extremes where Iraq's future is likely to be, you would be foolish to ignore that.

He's also right in saying that we still have a proportionally large military presence in Iraq considering the invasion was over 2 1/5 years ago.

Now I've said I don't agree with what he said so stop pestering me about his comments. All I said was that I don't dismiss everything that he says because then I would be like you, narrow-minded.

Omaha
11-26-2005, 10:24 PM
He's also right in saying that we still have a proportionally large military presence in Iraq considering the invasion was over 2 1/5 years ago.




We have proportionally large military presence in South Korea considering the war was 60 years ago.

Presence means nothing, and 2 1/5 years is no more significant than the width of a single hair lying on a football field.

cut
11-26-2005, 10:36 PM
We have proportionally large military presence in South Korea considering the war was 60 years ago.



that's a good point too

budgie
11-27-2005, 10:03 AM
that's a good point too

Actually it's more false logic. Comparing apples and oranges again. The occupation of Korea and of Japan and of West Germany went pretty smoothly. No suicide bombers, insurgents, religious extremists and the like. These countries were simply more prepared for change and the kind of change that Western occupation and rehabilitaion brought at the time.

In short they didn't mind, the Iraqis do.

I'd say that if GI's were under constant attacks and factions kept butchering one another in say, postwar Seoul, then as in Vietnam (a much closer analogy to the Iraq occupation), it would have been recognised as a lost cause decades ago.

sp2c
11-27-2005, 10:08 AM
I don't really like how he states that everybody is either against the war or lying.

if I'd wake up and it was all a dream I'd say do it again but not in the same way

Olybrius
11-27-2005, 10:55 AM
Times are changing ...

Apathy
11-27-2005, 04:19 PM
Times are changing ...
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/apathy18/1133006866534.jpg

The Squirrel does not approve of this!

cut
11-27-2005, 05:16 PM
Actually it's more false logic. Comparing apples and oranges again. The occupation of Korea and of Japan and of West Germany went pretty smoothly. No suicide bombers, insurgents, religious extremists and the like. These countries were simply more prepared for change and the kind of change that Western occupation and rehabilitaion brought at the time.

In short they didn't mind, the Iraqis do.

I'd say that if GI's were under constant attacks and factions kept butchering one another in say, postwar Seoul, then as in Vietnam (a much closer analogy to the Iraq occupation), it would have been recognised as a lost cause decades ago.

yeah but you can always claim false logic no too case are the same.

Lazarou
11-27-2005, 06:00 PM
the war is lost. We must get out

No, the war is lost when you get out. If the whole coalition leaves, Al-Qaida will florish and Syria, Iran and Israel will make Iraq their playground. That would be even a bigger mistake than attacking the country in the first place.

If you start something, you better finish it too.

Belrick
11-27-2005, 07:27 PM
this columnist needs to see iraq first hand instead of staying in a cozy warm apartment. he needs to re educate himself of the history and mentality of saddam and his two sons and the fedayeen. this pretty much goes for all anti iraq war protestors.

The iraqis are good people, and it's terrible that we have people like al queda who likes to s#@t on everything and then hide like little girls and the koran in some little cold cave

v-d0g

Crock of propaganda bs. Makes no sense when you consider it was the Iraqi people that kept SH in power. It wasnt hessian mercaneries that informed on there neighbours nor Redcoats who enforced brutality.
Even the most vile despot only stays in power if he holds enough popularity with the populace and SH stayed in power an awefully long time.

AND WTF HAS AL QAEDA GOT TO DO WITH IRAQ???? Do you even read???

And jsut how do you tie in SH with the US lead conquest of the Iraqi people? Was he massing for war against the US? Was he prepping his nukes to waste Washington?

History and current affairs tells us that the US has no issues dealing with dictators in general.
In truth it was that the US saw an opportunity for gain from a UNPOPULAR dictator who was trying to sell his peoples oil to nations other than the US.

Belrick
11-27-2005, 07:29 PM
No, the war is lost when you get out. If the whole coalition leaves, Al-Qaida will florish and Syria, Iran and Israel will make Iraq their playground. That would be even a bigger mistake than attacking the country in the first place.

If you start something, you better finish it too.

Tell me how many terrorists/al qaeda members were in Iraq before the US crushed it underfoot?

Lazarou
11-27-2005, 07:36 PM
Tell me how many terrorists/al qaeda members were in Iraq before the US crushed it underfoot?

Certainly fewer than there are now. Your point being...?

Omaha
11-27-2005, 08:10 PM
Actually it's more false logic. Comparing apples and oranges again. The occupation of Korea and of Japan and of West Germany went pretty smoothly. No suicide bombers, insurgents, religious extremists and the like. These countries were simply more prepared for change and the kind of change that Western occupation and rehabilitaion brought at the time.




Are you joking? Really. Are you?

There were still anti American German forces right up till 47. And the japanese absolutly hated us. Both areas were taking pot shots at us and killing troops after the war ended. You have just proven how much you really know.




In short they didn't mind, the Iraqis do.

Do everyone a favor and never grace us with your never ending rational logic. It is too much for me to handle.

Omaha
11-27-2005, 08:17 PM
Tell me how many terrorists/al qaeda members were in Iraq before the US crushed it underfoot?


There never really was. Other than a few dollars for hamas here and there, and that guy that took that Italian luxury liner over and pushed the American in a wheel chair over board, we found that scuz ball in western Iraq.

But that was never the point. The point was that an unstable government has WMDs. And wanted to strike Israel/the west at any cost. Which would eventually lead to selling that crap to AQ. Even though AQ did have connection with Saddam. Osama might have never stayed in saddam's palaces, but there was a connection.

hypz
11-29-2005, 01:21 AM
There never really was. Other than a few dollars for hamas here and there, and that guy that took that Italian luxury liner over and pushed the American in a wheel chair over board, we found that scuz ball in western Iraq.

But that was never the point. The point was that an unstable government has WMDs. And wanted to strike Israel/the west at any cost. Which would eventually lead to selling that crap to AQ. Even though AQ did have connection with Saddam. Osama might have never stayed in saddam's palaces, but there was a connection.

WMD's? Iraq?

Omaha
11-29-2005, 01:28 AM
How many times do I have to go through this?


Everyone thought Saddam had WMDs. Even France herself. The current situation and events, a regime like Iraq's could never be able to own/make WMDs.

ElHombre
11-29-2005, 02:27 AM
How many times do I have to go through this?


Everyone thought Saddam had WMDs. Even France herself. The current situation and events, a regime like Iraq's could never be able to own/make WMDs.

but none of them thought it was worth the trouble to inade and occupy iraq to make sure except for the administration.

looks like they were right.

Omaha
11-29-2005, 03:11 AM
but none of them thought it was worth the trouble to inade and occupy iraq to make sure except for the administration.





Oh so...a regime like Iraq that has WMD, that could easily kill millions in any city properly used...isn't worth going in to?


And the only people that really didn't support the Iraq war...were the ones in his pocket.

TacoDelRio
11-29-2005, 03:19 AM
I don't think (Dear God I hope..)anyone here agrees with this guy. Right?


Regardless of what he has done in his past, it is easy over shadowed with this literary diarrhea.

I agree. People look at someone's background, and think that's the end-all. Kerry is a vet. Does that make him worthy of sucking oxygen?



(No!)

Olybrius
11-29-2005, 05:28 AM
How many times do I have to go through this?


Everyone thought Saddam had WMDs. Even France herself. The current situation and events, a regime like Iraq's could never be able to own/make WMDs.

how to rewrite history ;)

It's totally wrong
France (De Villepin) said at the UN that France didn't have any informations about potential WMD in Iraq

and remember, at the time , most nations trusted a small bunch of UN's inpectors , not the US government ;)

Ratman
11-29-2005, 05:47 AM
how to rewrite history ;)

It's totally wrong
France (De Villepin) said at the UN that France didn't have any informations about potential WMD in Iraq

and remember, at the time , most nations trusted a small bunch of UN's inpectors , not the US government ;)

And look who was telling the truth based on reasonable evidence and look who was making **** up from the dodgiest of sources. What's more reasonable from the stand point of FREEDOM LOVING PEOPLE?

Kilgor
11-29-2005, 06:45 AM
http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.10.25.GrimCountdown-X.gif

Crassus
11-29-2005, 10:29 AM
There is a remarkable article in the latest issue of the American Jewish weekly, Forward (http://www.forward.com/articles/6936). It calls for President Bush to be impeached and put on trial "for misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany and lost them.
He is Martin van Creveld, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and one of the world's foremost military historians. Several of his books have influenced modern military theory and he is the only non-American author on the US Army's list of required reading for officers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1653453,00.html

Ratman
11-29-2005, 11:48 AM
Interesting read. I include myself among those who thought that the war was bs to begin with but, as it stands, also think there is no choice but to stay until there is a reasonable chance of success. That might a VERY long time.

In order to put enough fresh troops in Iraq on a regular basis (and have enough troops to deal with any unforeseen conflict), I think that some form of draft should be implemented. That would ensure that some soldiers are not forced to go back to Iraq after several tours and the knowingly false accusations in the State of Union address of Iraq's interest in uranium in Niger might become more interesting to those who's kids are going into the fire.

stonecutter
11-29-2005, 01:15 PM
how to rewrite history ;)

It's totally wrong
France (De Villepin) said at the UN that France didn't have any informations about potential WMD in Iraq

and remember, at the time , most nations trusted a small bunch of UN's inpectors , not the US government ;)


France may have acknowledged at some point the possibilty of WMDs in Iraq, but in order to take such a strong stance against the war and the U.S., you can bet that French intelligence was able to assure Chirac that Iraq didn't have any.
But, the war wasn't about WMD, remember? It was about how Iraq was all cozy with Al Qaeda and involved with 9/11.... No, wait, it was about getting rid of an evil dictator! He killed people, you know.
Hey, speaking of mass graves, this is an honest question -- how many of those graves were of Shiites that Saddam massacred following the First Oil War, when George Bush Sr. encouraged a Shiite uprising against Saddam then basically turned his back and left them hanging (pun intended)?

PS -- although this war was pure BS, now that Iraq has been broken, it must be fixed. To pull the troops out now would be complete folly.

Para
11-29-2005, 01:53 PM
He was probably paid a nice sum to write this article, and you can bet the editor told what he wanted in the the article