UK students fear Russian racists

[StormShadow]

By Jonathan Charles
BBC World Affairs correspondent, Voronezh, Russia

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif


Voronezh is a frightening place after dark, especially if you're a foreigner.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41057000/jpg/_41057256_1foreignstudsap203c.jpg

The southern Russian town has been playing host to British and other foreign students for decades, but now, mirroring a national trend, it is seeing a dramatic rise in racism and racist attacks.

Two foreign students have been murdered there in the past two years - the last victim a Peruvian, just a few weeks ago.

Enrique Hurtado was at a sports complex when he was set upon by a gang of skinheads.

The 18-year-old was beaten to death, another Peruvian and a Spanish student who were with him were left unconscious. The horrific attack has thrown the spotlight on a problem that the authorities seem reluctant to confront.

When I met a group of British students who have been sent to Voronezh by their universities back home as part of their Russian language degrees, they were all very disturbed by what had happened.


Local frustration

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40893000/gif/_40893716_russia_voronezh3_map203.gif

They no longer go out alone at night, worried that they could be targeted.

Rosie Anderson told me that she was now much more aware of people around her on the streets.

"I look into their eyes and wonder what they are thinking," she said.


"I no longer trust them and know that anything could happen. Enrique was as white as I am but he still got murdered. The Russians here, obviously, don't like foreigners very much."
Shireen Quayum, another British student, told me that she was afraid because her skin is quite dark.


"It's marred my enjoyment of being here because I'm now much more nervous. The number of attacks on foreigners has doubled over the past year here to over 100. The figures are very worrying."
It is not hard to find Voronezh citizens who are willing to voice anti-foreigner sentiments. I spent a few minutes walking around a market in the centre of town.

There, amidst stalls selling cheap clothes and vegetables, almost everyone that I spoke to was quite open about their views.


One man said: "Russia should be for Russians." Another told me: "All foreigners want to do is bring down Russia, they should go back to where they came from."
It is hard to pinpoint the precise reason why racism is on the rise. Since the collapse of communism in the early 1990s, Voronezh's economy has suffered with many factories closing.

This may have left people feeling frustrated and they take out their anger on what they perceive to be the wealthy foreigners who come to the town to study.


Safety first

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41057000/jpg/_41057258_march203ap.jpg http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41057000/jpg/_41057254_1graffitiap203c.jpg


Another cause could be President Vladimir Putin's campaign to make Russians feel proud of their country.
The president is no racist, but his message may have been misinterpreted by some who have translated it into an excuse to dislike foreigners.

Anti-racism campaigners in Voronezh say whatever the cause, the authorities are reluctant to acknowledge the problem. They worry that their town will get a bad reputation and the local economy will suffer even more.


It is true that without the 1,000 foreign students who are here at any one time and who pay fees, the town's university would be in a poor financial state.
"Voronezh needs new jobs and foreign investment, the local mayor and the governor know that if they start admitting that there's racism here, no one will want to come to Voronezh," says anti-racism campaigner, Alexei Kozlov.


"They won't want to study here or invest. That's why they choose to refer to the attacks as 'hooliganism' - not 'racism'."
The local police say they are doing what they can, putting more officers out on patrol and giving advice to students about how to stay safe.


The British students that I met are not reassured, though. Rosie Anderson told me that she will carry on being cautious.
"I'm not going to take my safety for granted, for the rest of my time here I'm going to be very aware that I'm a foreigner and take the necessary precautions."

Voronezh's troubles are replicated in many other Russian towns, raising questions for British and other foreign universities about whether it is really safe to carry on sending students to Russia.



@ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4469812.stm

[mack pl]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41057000/jpg/_41057254_1graffitiap203c.jpg

funny graffiti, swastika and the caption on the right, "we like(love) you"

[Musashi]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41057000/jpg/_41057254_1graffitiap203c.jpg

funny graffiti, swastika and the caption on the right, "we like(love) you"
True, nice observation :)

My question is: as Russia demanded from Poland to apologize for the attacks on the Russian kids in Warsaw is Russia going to apologize Peru and Spain now?

[Lazarou]

"Russia should be for Russians."

That's kind of ironic, because Russians are not Russia's indeginous inhabitants.
I say Russia should be for the Finno-Ugric peoples and other Uralic tribes [insert funny emoticon here].

[mack pl]

;)


My question is: as Russia demanded from Poland to apologize for the attacks on the Russian kids in Warsaw is Russia going to apologize Peru and Spain now?

nope, because Russia strong !!!!



and seriously, these students werent kids of diplomats....little difference I guess...

[ED209]

Oh my racist, squeeeaaal!

[Wodan]

Disliking foreigners in the own nation is one thing, but violence like this shouldnt be tolerated!

The russian state should send such scum direclty into the gulag!

[Snoshi]

If Russia would do that then amnesty would whine about violeting human laws.

[StormShadow]

Racist Attacks Forcing Foreign Students to Leave Russia — Paper
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/30/forstudents.shtml

Rise in Racial Killings Reported in Russia
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/11/03/racialkill.shtml

Russian Youth Charged With Murder of Peruvian Student **
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/27/peruviancharge.shtml

African Student Stabbed in South Russian City
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/21/cameroonattacked.shtml

Youths Arrested in Russia’s Voronezh Over Murder of Foreign Student
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/19/voronezharrest.shtml

Israeli Diplomat Attacked in St. Petersburg
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/18/israeliattacked.shtml

Foreign Students Protest Killing of Peruvian in Central Russia **
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/11/voronezhunrest.shtml

Foreign Student Killed, 2 Wounded in Russian Skinhead Attack **
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/10/voronezhattack.shtml

Russian Classmates of Killed Congolese Student Protest Against Racism
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/09/15/protestras.shtml

African Students Attack St. Petersburg Residents With Baseball Bats
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/11/11/africansfight.shtml

Congolese Student Dies in St. Petersburg Hospital After Attack
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/09/14/congostudent.shtml

Dutch Tourist Killed in Moscow — Authorities
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/09/11/dutchkilled.shtml

Middle-Aged Afro-Russian Beaten up in Moscow Metro
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/09/04/afrorussianbeaten.shtml

Jewish Student in Ukraine Critical After Skinhead Attack
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/08/29/skinheadattck.shtml

Russian Skinheads Jailed for Racist Killings
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/08/22/surgut.shtml

Poland Appeals to Russia’s Putin to Stop Attacks
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/08/12/polappeal.shtml

Racism in Russian
http://www.mosnews.com/feature/2005/07/05/nazi.shtml

Gas Masked Anti-Semites Pogrom Moscow's Only Kosher Foods Store
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/07/03/shopattack.shtml

Russian Youths Get up to 19 Years in Jail for Racist Murders
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/05/11/youthverdict.shtml

More Than Half of Russians Xenophobic — Rights Group
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/11/07/xenophobia.shtml

[Dima-RussianArms]

I'll take it that StormShadow is pushing for some agenda here, so what is it?
Also he was so passionate in his "quest" that he provided several links describing the same event (but of course it made it look like multiple occurences/incidents;-) ), and btw, how does "Jewish Student in Ukraine Critical After Skinhead Attack
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/08/...eadattck.shtml
" factor in? Ran out of dirt on Russians?

Unlike you would like to lead people to believe, instances such as the one in your original post are rather rare and when happen are dealt with accordingly
Russian Youths Get up to 19 Years in Jail for Racist Murders
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/05/...hverdict.shtml


Clean up your own house before pointing to other countries problems.

[Count Lippe]

Disliking foreigners in the own nation is one thing, but violence like this shouldnt be tolerated!

The russian state should send such scum direclty into the gulag!

Russian jails are overfilled. There must be a different approach.

[Teaser]

I feel for that 18 year old that got beaten to death.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

hhhmmm could be the loose morals of the russian women hooking up with foreigners thats fules their anger. nothing makes a hate mongering skinhead more mad than interracial romance involving white women! are interracial relationships prevalent in the cities with good portions of foreigners (i.e. every white supremicist's worst nightmare)?

[Lokos]

I like how subtly you call Russian women whores.

Lokos

[Mr.K]

That's kind of ironic, because Russians are not Russia's indeginous inhabitants.
I say Russia should be for the Finno-Ugric peoples and other Uralic tribes [insert funny emoticon here].
Oh so Russians are extraterrestials that came from another galaxy?
Please explain, i'd like to know my roots.:)

[Mr.K]

I like how subtly you call Russian women whores.

Lokos

Notice the frustration :), it must be real hard to be half-polish.

[Kilgor]

Racism and Nationalism, of a nation who once had great power is nothing new, but it is still disturbing.

Foreigners will be blamed for the countries collapse and Ills, extreme nationalist and communist groups will get the vote of people who dream for the good old days.

[Lokos]

That's kind of ironic, because Russians are not Russia's indeginous inhabitants.
I say Russia should be for the Finno-Ugric peoples and other Uralic tribes [insert funny emoticon here].

Indeed? Then, pray tell, where did the Slavic tribes that constitute the greatest majority of East Europe's and European Russia's population come from?

Lokos

[Mr.K]

and let me guess StormShadow is having a hard time in the US and A (as Borat says it:)) , so news about "awful awful Russia" (which is probably where he was born) justify his presence in NYC.

[Kekkonen]

Indeed? Then, pray tell, where did the Slavic tribes that constitute the greatest majority of East Europe's and European Russia's population come from?

Lokos

I think Lazarou was talking about the Rus' tribe that had its powerbase around lake Ladoga, archaeological evidence shows that it was most likely Scandinavian Viking chiefs ruling the tribe. Also Finno-Ugric tribes are heavily present in this area, again shown by archaeological artifacts. And only from the Rus' tribes name it's clear who Russia is named after. There is also another linguistical tie in the name, the Finnish name for Sweden is Ruotsi and the majority of the vikings that went east (Danish and Norwegian vikings mainly went west) was from the Swedish Roslagen area, thus Rus'.

But of course you Slavs would never admit that, you have such ignorant pride which makes you... well Peter Griffin from Family Guy is a good example.


hhhmmm could be the loose morals of the russian women hooking up with foreigners thats fules their anger. nothing makes a hate mongering skinhead more mad than interracial romance involving white women! are interracial relationships prevalent in the cities with good portions of foreigners (i.e. every white supremicist's worst nightmare)?

Good post, it was indeed the probable reason. Envy.

[asch]

Slavs (which is derived from the word slave because that was what you were seen as) kneel before the wisdom of kekkonen!
err, but word Slavs was here long time before we got english. sumptin wrong, eh?
actually, "slovene" - from word "slovo". and pra-slovene was known in II millenia B.C. but don't bother yourself to read.


hhhmmm could be the loose morals of the russian women hooking up with foreigners thats fules their anger. nothing makes a hate mongering skinhead more mad than interracial romance involving white women! are interracial relationships prevalent in the cities with good portions of foreigners (i.e. every white supremicist's worst nightmare)?
in your dreams.

[Kekkonen]

kneel before the wisdom of kekkonen!
err, but word Slavs was here long time before we got english. sumptin wrong, eh?
actually, "slovene" - from word "slovo". and pra-slovene was known in II millenia B.C. but don't bother yourself to read.

Well I was mostly thinking about our conception of you and why the word slave was introduced to several western European languages, including English. In the Scandinavian languages the word used for slaves was träl (thrall) but from about the 11th century slave became more common because the slaves were mainly, well you guys. What is the Russian word for slave?

Although I see that I wrote that Slavs were derived from slaves :) Funny, but I blame that I'm tired.

[sir-chimp]

My understaning of the root of the word slave was from the term slav, not the other way around? What I mean is the word slav existed before it was connoted with slavery?

[asch]

err, russian words for slave is "rab" and, maybe, "krepostnoy".

btw, back to thread subject.
it's a shame to our social system that things like that ever exist. every nationalist movement in my opinion is a most degradated part of society.
i feel sorry for that, but can do a little.

[sir-chimp]

err, russian words for slave is "rab" and, maybe, "krepostnoy".

btw, back to thread subject.
it's a shame to our social system that things like that ever exist. every nationalist movement in my opinion is a most degradated part of society.
i feel sorry for that, but can do a little.

I was not refering to roots of the russian word slave, but rather the english. Sorry I did not make that clear.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

I think Lazarou was talking about the Rus' tribe that had its powerbase around lake Ladoga, archaeological evidence shows that it was most likely Scandinavian Viking chiefs ruling the tribe. Also Finno-Ugric tribes are heavily present in this area, again shown by archaeological artifacts. And only from the Rus' tribes name it's clear who Russia is named after. There is also another linguistical tie in the name, the Finnish name for Sweden is Ruotsi and the majority of the vikings that went east (Danish and Norwegian vikings mainly went west) was from the Swedish Roslagen area, thus Rus'.

You are so wrong, where to start? First of all, archeological evidence of the Rus' most definitely does not point to a Scandinavian origin - in fact their weapons had a very distinct resemblance to Frankish ones. The areas inhabited by the Rus' (which are nowhere near Ladoga) were mostly Slavic - Finno-Urgic barbarians were kept on the borders (hey, Russians had to build forts to protect them from Finnish barbarians until as late as the 15th century). The linguistic connection also doesn't imply anything - the Slavic word for oar is 'Ruslo,' and 'Rusalka' means mermaid (river-spirit), and the Rus' were known as the river people (since this was their primary mode of transportation). It is also pretty telling that there is no mention of the Rus' in any of the Scandinavian written accounts nor any evidence of them in Scandinavian archeological remains.


But of course you Slavs (which is derived from the word slave because that was what you were seen as) would never admit that, you have such ignorant pride which makes you... well Peter Griffin from Family Guy is a good example.

Hey Hitler Jr., put down Mein Kampf and listen to what asch said - the name "Slav" was around long before Vikings invented New English.

[Kekkonen]

You are so wrong, where to start? First of all, archeological evidence of the Rus' most definitely does not point to a Scandinavian origin - in fact their weapons had a very distinct resemblance to Frankish ones.

Scandinavian vikings imported the blades of their swords from... guess where. The Vikings were multicultural to say the least, and they adapted very fast, that's why Viking ancestors from Normandie (that were given to them by a French king so they would stop looting the French coast) invaded England as the Normands, and why Viking remains of Viking settlements can be found in Ireland, England, Vinland (America) and so forth and of course... and in Russia.

In Sweden in grave material there is also a typical "eastern" touch on many of the artifats, especially in the viking town Birka remains have shown that the Vikings there had a very eastern style of clothing which can only be seen in the context that there were strong connections to the east with the Viking settlements there and with the trade. In for example Danish Viking age graves the connections are closer to the Frankish cultural sphere.


The areas inhabited by the Rus' (which are nowhere near Ladoga) were mostly Slavic - Finno-Urgic barbarians were kept on the borders (hey, Russians had to build forts to protect them from Finnish barbarians until as late as the 15th century).

That's cute. The same excuse you used during world war two when Leningrad suddenly was "at risk" :). And I think the barbaric actions went both ways, Russia and "Finland" has pretty much been at war constantly from an historical point of view. And it can of course be debated to where the Rus' had its powerbase, I still say lake Ladoga region (somewhat towards the south-east of the lake to be more precise) untill I see something contradicting that.


The linguistic connection also doesn't imply anything - the Slavic word for oar is 'Ruslo,' and 'Rusalka' means mermaid (river-spirit), and the Rus' were known as the river people (since this was their primary mode of transportation). It is also pretty telling that there is no mention of the Rus' in any of the Scandinavian written accounts nor any evidence of them in Scandinavian archeological remains

True that the linguistic connection doesn't imply anything, but it works the same for the examples you gave. And there is a lots of connections between the Rus's tribal area and Scandinavian archaeological remains as I explained above.

[Lokos]

archaeological evidence shows that it was most likely Scandinavian Viking chiefs ruling the tribe

The Norman interpretation of the origins of the Rus' (specifically Kievan Rus') generally has been discredited for some time. The Slavic word for river, for example, is far closer linguistically and logically to the root origins of Rus' than any Viking/Scandinavian rubbish.The Poles are the 'people of the plains'. The Russians are 'people of the rivers'.


Good post, it was indeed the probable reason. Envy.

Riiii-iight. Just keep smoking that pipe, buddy.

As for the origins of the word 'slave' in English, this explanation is satisfactory:


Word History: The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, “Slav, slave,” first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (****ounced sklävs) “Slav,” which appears around 580. Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves

Many Slavs were assimilated and/or enslaved by the Germanic 'drang nach Ost' of the early medieval period. Berlin, for example, is a Slavic place name - as are thousands of other landmarks, towns and cities in Germany. The Arabs bought numerous Slavic slaves, especially the Almohads and their descendant regimes, who created an elite Slavic Guard in Muslim Spain - a unit noted as the best on the peninsula.

There was even a 'Slavic Quarter' in one of the larger Sicillian towns - I can't remember which at the moment.

Many Slavs deny this, but there is no reason to. It is not shameful to have been preyed on by marauding slavers, especially when your society is not particularly militarily-oriented. Of course, by the 12th century, the Vikings themselves were being raided by Baltic Slav marauders. By the 14th century, Slavs were doing a lot of enslaving of their own from Prussia to the Byzantines to the Golden Horde and beyond.


In Sweden in grave material there is also a typical "eastern" touch on many of the artifats, especially in the viking town Birka remains have shown that the Vikings there had a very eastern style of clothing which can only be seen in the context that there were strong connections to the east with the Viking settlements there and with the trade.

The various Slavic groups in and around the areas of Novgorod, Muscovy and Pskov traded high quality axes and other goods for various commodities and services with the Vikings.


What is the Russian word for slave?

The Slavic word for 'slave' is usually along the lines of rab-rob-rabotnik-rabot, depending on where you are. The word 'robot' comes from 'rabot'.

Lokos

[Major Maxillary]

although there is merit to this whole thing, as a rule of thumb, College students know precisely jack **** about everything.

[Lazarou]

The ancient Finno-Ugric tribes (Finno-Ugric languages = a subfamily of the Uralic language family, incl. the Finns, Karelians, Estonians, Hungarians, the Sami etc), unorganized hunters at that time, were in Eastern Europe and western Russia ages before the Slavs came. The Slavs (i.e. East-Slavs) came to Russia from the southwest, and slowly started replacing the original inhabitants. There are still many non-Slav tribes living in Russia (the Karelians for example) but they're future doesn't look too good.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2816/europe8149yh.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=europe8149yh.jpg)
Europe, 814 AC. Source: University of Texas
Note: "Finnish tribes" refers to all people who spoke Finno-Ugric-languages. The yellow area in Scandinavia shows what the living space of the Sami people (aka the Lapps) looked at that time.

For a comparison, here's Europe in 912:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9044/europe9123fx.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=europe9123fx.jpg)

The Rus' were Scandinavian traders and warriors who allegedly founded Russia (c. 862), they're settlements in Russia have nothing to do with the area's ethnic backround, they -according to old Russian chronicles - came to bring law and order to the area by the demand of the Slavs and the Karelians. There's quite a lot of debate about their backround, the most popular theory is that they came from Sweden. On the other hand, Katherine the Great was convinced that they came from Finland instead, but then again, the same lady died while having an orgy with a horse. For understandable reasons no-one wants to take the honor of founding Russia.

Seriously off-topic

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

The ancient Finno-Ugric tribes (Finno-Ugric languages = a subfamily of the Uralic language family, incl. the Finns, Karelians, Estonians, Hungarians, the Sami etc), unorganized hunters at that time, were in Eastern Europe and western Russia ages before the Slavs came. The Slavs (i.e. East-Slavs) came to Russia from the southwest, and slowly started replacing the original inhabitants. There are still many non-Slav tribes living in Russia (the Karelians for example) but they're future doesn't look too good.

I think you too need to put down your copy of Mein Kampf and read some history books written after the 19th century.


http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2816/europe8149yh.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=europe8149yh.jpg)
Europe, 814 AC. Source: University of Texas
Note: "Finnish tribes" refers to all people who spoke Finno-Ugric-languages.

Which is exactly why the map is wrong. The Bulgars (Tatars) are Turks and have an Altaic-Turkic language. Same thing with the Bashkirs - they're Turks. There never was such a thing as Esthland. Out of the three Baltic cultures around today, only Estonians have a Finno-Urgic language. The map looks like it was printed in the late 19th century - most historical accounts of that time have been shown to be erroneous.


For a comparison, here's Europe in 912:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9044/europe9123fx.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=europe9123fx.jpg)

Which is another 19th century map. There was no such thing as "Esthland" back then - modern day Estonia was populated by a Baltic tribe known as the Chuds.


The Rus' were Scandinavian traders and warriors who allegedly founded Russia (c. 862), they're settlements in Russia have nothing to do with the area's ethnic backround, they -according to old Russian chronicles - came to bring law and order to the area by the demand of the Slavs and the Karelians.

The primary chronicle was written in 1110-ish for Sviatopolk II who wanted to ally with Sweden against Vladimir Monomakh. At most it contains anecdotal accounts, at worst it can be considered an early form of political propaganda.


There's quite a lot of debate about their backround, the most popular theory is that they came from Sweden.

Popular in Finland and Sweden it seems.


On the other hand, Katherine the Great was convinced that they came from Finland instead, but then again, the same lady died while having an orgy with a horse. For understandable reasons no-one wants to take the honor of founding Russia.

What did I tell you about reading Mein Kampf again?


Seriously off-topic

Agreed.


Scandinavian vikings imported the blades of their swords from... guess where.

Yeah, they bought them in such a large number that they don't seem to show up in their archeological remains at all. Like I said, in archeological sites around the time of the formation of Kievan Rus', the weapons (which only bear some resemblance Frankish ones - there is no evidence they were imported) and decorations of the Rus' are nothing like those of Scandinavians.


And it can of course be debated to where the Rus' had its powerbase, I still say lake Ladoga region (somewhat towards the south-east of the lake to be more precise) untill I see something contradicting that.

The primary activity of the Rus' was trading between Byzantium and Scandinavians. The closes Rus' city to Ladoga was Novgorod, but Kiev became the principal city of the Rus' under Rurik, the first Russian king.


True that the linguistic connection doesn't imply anything, but it works the same for the examples you gave. And there is a lots of connections between the Rus's tribal area and Scandinavian archaeological remains as I explained above.

Ok, so the Rus' were Scandinavians. But they were very funny Scandinavians - they didn't live in the same place, they didn't speak Norse, they didn't have the same religion, they didn't have the same weapons and trinkets. So what exactly did they have in common with Scandinavians?

[usa320]

you know, every Russian ive ever met have been really cocky about being Russian, not that its necessarily a bad thing.

[asch]

well, methink, this applicable to lots of people, regardless nationality. ;)

[GermaniaInvicta]

Almost all of our ancestor's were driven to the west. I'm of Swabian/Alleman origin and live in south west Germany. The people who lived here before were Celts and a few Romans and were assimilated or driven away by Germanic tribes who came from the east, what is now Poland and south west Russia. The room which the Germanic tribes left behind on their march to the west was taken by following Slavic tribes.
As the Germanic tribes had enough trouble with fighting down Celtic kingdoms and Roman fortifications their hands were bound to fight against advancing Slavic tribes form who followed them from the east, that's one explanation why some German towns and cities have Slavic roots.
After Rome was at it's knees as well as the Celtic kingdoms Germanic tribes had free hands to turn to the east and start a reconquista.

[Lazarou]

Son_Of_Suvorov, try not to let your nationalism affect your judgement. Finno-Ugric languages were in Russia and Europe far before the Indo-European languages (incl. Slavic and Germanic languages) came along - that's a fact that the whole scientific community agrees on. Unless you want to make yourself look like an idiot, i recommend you quit reading the Soviet-era history books, sit back and quit posting crap.


I think you too need to put down your copy of Mein Kampf

Don't rely on personal insults if you run out of adequate arguments.


Which is exactly why the map is wrong. The Bulgars (Tatars) are Turks and have an Altaic-Turkic language. Same thing with the Bashkirs - they're Turks.

Your point being? If you look at the map again, there's a clear line between the Finno-Ugric-speaking tribes (incl. the Mordvans) and the Altaic White Bulgars and Bashkirs. Note that the maps are based on 9th/10th century historians' view of the world. The maps are old and have numerous errors, but they visualize the ethnic history of Russia well enough to be used as examples. The University of Texas thinks they're adequate, so why wouldn't I?


There was no such thing as "Esthland" back then - modern day Estonia was populated by a Baltic tribe known as the Chuds.

You clearly are not aware of the words' etymological backround. Esthland does not refer to the nation now known as Estonia. Esthland/Eastland has a far older origin and refers to a lot wider area than Estonia. And yes, the Baltics' history is rather Finno-Ugric. There are still a few Livonians living in Latvia as a proof of the area's Finno-Ugric history and in fact, the Chuds you mentioned were Baltic Finns. You as a Russian(?) should know that, you people still sometimes call us chukhnas...


What did I tell you about reading Mein Kampf again?

What did I tell you about posting crap again?


Ok, so the Rus' were Scandinavians. But they were very funny Scandinavians - they didn't live in the same place, they didn't speak Norse, they didn't have the same religion, they didn't have the same weapons and trinkets. So what exactly did they have in common with Scandinavians?

Once again, your trying to deny a theory that the whole scientific community sees as the most likely explanation.
Think before you post.

As I have said before, this is waaay off-topic.

[Kekkonen]

Ok, so the Rus' were Scandinavians. But they were very funny Scandinavians - they didn't live in the same place, they didn't speak Norse, they didn't have the same religion, they didn't have the same weapons and trinkets. So what exactly did they have in common with Scandinavians?

Scandinavian is not really the right word, they were mainly Vikings from the area where Stockholm is today, and they were Swedes (Svear) of various tribes and under various kings, especially Adam of Bremen (a German munk in the 11th century) writes about this and he and other contemporary writers especially mentions the viking town of Birka where there has been extensive archaeological excavations for decades, and Uppsala where there is supposed to have been a pagan temple (although not found yet, if it ever existed).

Vikings lived as far away as in Vinland (America) and as I said earlier Vikings were multicultural and fast to adapt, that's why they started settlements far away and they always mingled with the local population, and rather took part in their culture than forced their own on the local population, but we know from other examples that the Vikings often founded powerfull kingdoms (Danelagen in England, the kingdom of York in England, Normandie in France etc). And besides there is much speculation in what you wrote, how do you know what they were speaking?

Another example is Novgorod which is known to have been powerfull from the medieavel period, and guess who founded Novgorod? Yeah you know who it was, it was the Rus', and there is even a name of the founder in written sources from Novgorod, and the name is Ulrich which clearly connects to the Germanic language tradition, of which the Scandinavian languages are part of.

[mack pl]

btw

there is a theory, that our(Polish) first royal dynasty(Piast's) had scandinavian roots. Considering the fact that there been scandinavians in Kiyev and Novogrod in IX century, its possible that some of them came to Poland and create a dynasty here...of course, its only theory.

end OT

[GermaniaInvicta]

@Kekkonen
Mixing in Vinland was a neccessity because there weren't any women execpt the Native American.
Our Germanic ancestors where not that much in mingling. For example take a look at the chronicles of India.

Nomad Germanic hordes crossed the Himalaya made an end to the kingdoms of the Subkontinent and founded their own kingdowms which they gave the caste system regulating and prohibiting down mixing. And that's why even today members of the higher castes (brahmahns) have lighter skin and European type faces than members of lower castes.

[RomanS]

you know, every Russian ive ever met have been really cocky about being Russian, not that its necessarily a bad thing.
Kind of like the Americans I've met that are cocky about being Americans.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with pride.

[DeathForSale]

I think my Russian brothers should be nationalist, Russia is a vast and beatiful land, and it's people are tough and freedom loving just like we Serbs are> But there is no reason for things like this to happen.

[ed316]

Kind of like the Americans I've met that are cocky about being Americans.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with pride.

Yep, my Romanian friends here in the states are the same lots of pride. Overall nice guys.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

And besides there is much speculation in what you wrote, how do you know what they were speaking?

From Ahmad ibn Fadlan's account, the Rus' spoke the same language as their slaves, which were predominantly Slavic. More telling is that the number of loan words from Norse or Finnish or any other hypothetical Scandinavian language of the Rus' is insignificant. In all other areas ruled by the Vikings there has been a significant influence on the local languages (for example what I said about Vikings inventing New English is true - Old and New English are for all intents and purposes different languages).


Another example is Novgorod which is known to have been powerfull from the medieavel period, and guess who founded Novgorod? Yeah you know who it was, it was the Rus', and there is even a name of the founder in written sources from Novgorod, and the name is Ulrich which clearly connects to the Germanic language tradition, of which the Scandinavian languages are part of.

Now you're just admitting you have no idea what you are talking about. This 'Ulrich' you speak of is a hypothetical Swedishization of 'Rurik.' Novgorod was around for probably several centuries before Rurik came along - old Norse sagas describe the city (the Vikings called it Holmsgard).


Son_Of_Suvorov, try not to let your nationalism affect your judgement. Finno-Ugric languages were in Russia and Europe far before the Indo-European languages (incl. Slavic and Germanic languages) came along - that's a fact that the whole scientific community agrees on.

Oh man, an armchair linguistics expert. The "whole scientific community" doesn't agree on anything (besides, what would physicists care about Finno-Urgic languages for?). The current general consensus is actually the opposite of what you describe. Indo-European languages are thought to have emerged in Asia sometime in the late Neolithic to early Bronze ages (we have a very good idea of this since the Nazi crap GermaniaInvicta describes about Germans crossing the Himalayas has some truth - a group of people now known as the Aryans migrated from somewhere in Asia, probably Iran, to India, and made up the Rg Veda sometime in the second millenium BC, which remained virtually unchanged for the next four thousand years). Finno-Urgic languages are thought to have emerged sometime in the Bronze age. There is a hypothesis that the people living in NW Russia in the stone age spoke a Uralic language - however, there is no proof of this (historical linguistics actually indicates that a third, unrelated category of languages may have been spoken). Reconstructive linguistics indicates that even the earliest proto-Finno-Urgic languages had Indo-European loan words.


The University of Texas thinks they're adequate, so why wouldn't I?

Has it ever occured to you that they are presented to preserve the history of history?


There are still a few Livonians living in Latvia as a proof of the area's Finno-Ugric history and in fact, the Chuds you mentioned were Baltic Finns.

No, actually 'Chud' was the generic Russian nomenclature for the inhabitants of nothern Baltics.


Esthland does not refer to the nation now known as Estonia. Esthland/Eastland has a far older origin and refers to a lot wider area than Estonia.

'Estland' is what the Vikings called the Baltics because they didn't know any better (did you notice how going from the 9th to the 10th centuries the territory of this 'Estland' shrunk?). There was no such country or people called that in the time period those maps indicate.

[Kekkonen]

From Ahmad ibn Fadlan's account, the Rus' spoke the same language as their slaves, which were predominantly Slavic. More telling is that the number of loan words from Norse or Finnish or any other hypothetical Scandinavian language of the Rus' is insignificant. In all other areas ruled by the Vikings there has been a significant influence on the local languages (for example what I said about Vikings inventing New English is true - Old and New English are for all intents and purposes different languages).

Are you saying that the ones Fadlan met were not Vikings? But indeed slavic Rus'? If so, that's sure not how it is interpreted in the scientific litterature in the rest of the world outside Russia. Especially the sacrifice of the female slave and the ritual surrounding that event that he describes has been of importance scientifically in Scandinavia.


Now you're just admitting you have no idea what you are talking about. This 'Ulrich' you speak of is a hypothetical Swedishization of 'Rurik.' Novgorod was around for probably several centuries before Rurik came along - old Norse sagas describe the city (the Vikings called it Holmsgard).

Those old Norse sagas depicts events that happened several centuries before the events they are describing, and thus there should be doubts about the value of these sources, but however they are of course valuable to understand the time when they were written, which is already Chrisian medieval period. But sure let us trust written sources and let us see what the Kiev monk Nestor wrote;


A monk named Nestor, who lived in Kiev, wrote a chronicle which tells the story behind the Viking travels and why they settled in Russia. In the chronicle he states that Russia was founded by the Vikings, or as they called them `Varjager'.

According to Nestor the Vikings levied taxes on the Slavic peoples and therefore were eventually chased out of the country. The local people wanted to have a king of their own. Unfortunately this was not a success, and after awhile there was total anarchy in the country. Then someone came up with a bright idea: Why not get a king from elsewhere? No sooner said than done, they sent for a king from the foreign country Sweden, and after awhile a Viking turned up. Nestor writes: "Let us find a king from another country who will give us justice and rule over us. And they went over the sea to the land of the Varjager, to Ruserna. Because this people is called Ruser as others are called Svear. Yet others are called Norrmaner, Anglianer and some Goter. So even all these have their names."

When the messengers with their unusual offer from the foreign country turned up in Sweden three men were promptly selected to take on the responsibility. These men were brothers and their names were: Rurik, Sinjeus and Truvor. The oldest (Rurik) of them settled down in Novgorod; the other ones went to White Russia (Sinjeus), and Izborsk (Truvor).

Nestor writes: "It's after these Varjager that the country of Novgorod now bears the name `land of Rusers'."

Soon Rurik was the only one left in "Russland"; his brothers went on a trip along the river Dnieper to the city of Kiev (Könugård), which they successfully invaded. From Kiev they made small expeditions down to Constantinople. Rurik died sometime about 879, and another Viking chief took over, Oleg. Oleg also invaded Kiev and declared this city of all Russian cities the mother. Oleg was soon replaced by his former master's son, Igor. The Swedish names after Rurik, Oleg and Igor are: Rörek, Helge and Ingvar. But there are uncertainties about the Swedish connections.

In any event, there are Swedish names involved in the earliest peace treaties which are quoted in their entirety in the Nestor chronicle. Their names have been a bit misspelled but they can be read as: Sven, Gunnar, Tord, Ulf and Karl.

Bottom line = Russian patriotism is funny. Just as in the British Isles and Normandy, the Vikings soon lost their Nordic traditions. They were simply too few to have any impact on the natives, but that doesn't take away that they had some serious impact on the future development.

[asch]

Bottom line = Russian patriotism is funny
wow. patriotism not funny at all. what about american patriotism? u think, maybe, it more funny than russian? or what about patriotism in, for example, new zealand?
and this Nestor monk - you know, same medieval scientists wrote about people with dog's heads.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

Are you saying that the ones Fadlan met were not Vikings? But indeed slavic Rus'? If so, that's sure not how it is interpreted in the scientific litterature in the rest of the world outside Russia. Especially the sacrifice of the female slave and the ritual surrounding that event that he describes has been of importance scientifically in Scandinavia.

Ohh, "scientific literature," big intimidating words there! Unfortunately they don't mean much as there is no consensus on Ahmad ibn Fadlan's account from anthropologists, Russian or not. Fact is, his account points out two things - the Rus' spoke the same language as their slaves, and their religion was not the same as that of the Vikings (women in Valhalla? Viking totem poles?). Ritual slave sacrifice at a burial was a common practice of virtually all civilizations in the world. The only similarity is the method of burial was cremation in a boat.


Those old Norse sagas depicts events that happened several centuries before the events they are describing, and thus there should be doubts about the value of these sources, but however they are of course valuable to understand the time when they were written, which is already Chrisian medieval period. But sure let us trust written sources and let us see what the Kiev monk Nestor wrote;

Well, you've obviously read what I've written, so the only choice left is that you don't know what you are talking about (again). Nestor was the monk who wrote the primary chronicle for Sviatopolk II.


Bottom line = Russian patriotism is funny. Just as in the British Isles and Normandy, the Vikings soon lost their Nordic traditions. They were simply too few to have any impact on the natives, but that doesn't take away that they had some serious impact on the future development.

I'm not trying to promote Russian patriotism. I don't care where the Rus' came from - they might as well have come from Africa, it's all the same. What I am trying to say is that the Normanist theory of the origin of the Rus' has as much holes as Swiss cheese. This starts to become a problem when little Hitler Jrs. like you start to run around thumping copies of Mein Kampf to support your views of racial superiority and "aboriginal" claims to land. The only place this leads to is war and genocide. This process is still occuring today - just look at the thousands-page long national mythologies that have been dreamt up by Balkan racists to justify and promote the Yugoslav wars, the Muslim "historic persecution" complex, etc., etc.

Hell, we don't need to look anywhere else for an example, we have one right here. Many Russian Nazis (the NBP among them) promote the Normanist theory to justify their views ("hey looks at us, we're Aryan volk too!").

So who says this is off-topic now?

[StormShadow]

I want to know why is my name mentioned twice without me being involved with the conversation that is going on in here.

I've only posted an article and articles similiar to the situation of what is going on, that's it.

[Kekkonen]

Ohh, "scientific literature," big intimidating words there! Unfortunately they don't mean much as there is no consensus on Ahmad ibn Fadlan's account from anthropologists, Russian or not. Fact is, his account points out two things - the Rus' spoke the same language as their slaves, and their religion was not the same as that of the Vikings (women in Valhalla? Viking totem poles?). Ritual slave sacrifice at a burial was a common practice of virtually all civilizations in the world. The only similarity is the method of burial was cremation in a boat.

There are more similarities than just the boat my Slav friend. Fadlan also writes that the chief was cremated and that there were sacrifices of animals, horses, dogs, cows, chickens, in other words exactly those animals that are found in Viking age cremations. Fadlan also tells about the people he met, and they carried an axe (what the Viking warriors were known for) a sword and a knife and so forth. Yes I would absolutely say that in non-Russian scientific litterature it's quite established, see for example;

"The principal historical question is not whether the Rus were Scandinavians or Slavs, but, rather, how quickly these Scandinavian Rus became absorbed into Slavic life and culture. . . . In 839 the Rus were Swedes; in 1043 the Rus were Slavs. Sometime between 839 and 1043 two changes took place: one was the absorption of the Swedish Rus into the Slavic people among whom they settled, and the second was the extension of the term ‘Rus’ to apply to these Slavic peoples by whom the Swedes were absorbed." http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/montgo1.htm

As for the rest you wrote it was mostly a personal attack which I don't feel like answering since it's not relevant to this discussion about the Rus' origins. I don't feel that the discussion is off-topic, the origin of the nation is quite relevant in a thread about dumbass skinheads, too bad they don't read this thread, even though our opinions are conflicting they could problably have learned something :)

[Lokos]

Nomad Germanic hordes crossed the Himalaya

Nuh-uh. You're talking about the Indo-European Aryans. There was no such thing as 'Germanic' identity back in the day you're talking about. I believe you'll find it quite interesting to note that modern geneticists and historians at Stanford conducted a survey which pointed to the East and West Slavs to be the closest genetic approximation to the 'Aryans' left in Europe.


that's one explanation why some German towns and cities have Slavic roots.

There was a fair amount of tribal migration in the Late Roman period in Central Europe. The Germanic tribes did, indeed, inhabit much of Germany prior to this point. However, Slavic tribes subseqently settled in much of modern day central and eastern Germany. It was some centuries later that the Germanic tribes pushed back, and once again occupied that territory. Most of the Slavic inhabitants were a) enslaved and sold b) driven off or c) assimilated. Vast numbers of today's Germans have partly Slavic backgrounds. Numerous names accepted as 'German', are actually Germanicized Slavic names.

Lokos

[Lazarou]

The current general consensus is actually the opposite of what you describe.

Your theories are based on 20th century assumptions. According to current theories Uralic languages have been spoken for nearly 10 000 years. Most science magazines have written articles about this...


No, actually 'Chud' was the generic Russian nomenclature for the inhabitants of nothern Baltics.

...who - suprise surprise - spoke Finno-Ugric languages. Just as I said.


'Estland' is what the Vikings called the Baltics because they didn't know any better (did you notice how going from the 9th to the 10th centuries the territory of this 'Estland' shrunk?). There was no such country or people called that in the time period those maps indicate.

Just as I said. You claimed before that "There never was such a thing as Esthland"... Why this sudden change of mind?

[rajkhalsa]

@Kekkonen
Mixing in Vinland was a neccessity because there weren't any women execpt the Native American.
Our Germanic ancestors where not that much in mingling. For example take a look at the chronicles of India.

Nomad Germanic hordes crossed the Himalaya made an end to the kingdoms of the Subkontinent and founded their own kingdowms which they gave the caste system regulating and prohibiting down mixing. And that's why even today members of the higher castes (brahmahns) have lighter skin and European type faces than members of lower castes.
Yeesh, can we next time reference scientific theory made in at least the last two centuries, please?

:cantbeli: