Private security contractors shooting up Iraqi drivers

[Nordic Fire]

A "trophy" video appearing to show security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians has sparked two investigations after it was posted on the internet, the Sunday Telegraph can reveal.

The video has sparked concern that private security companies, which are not subject to any form of regulation either in Britain or in Iraq, could be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent Iraqis.

Not subject to any form of regulation? Surely that can't be true...

Full article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/27/ixworld.html).

[Johnny_H02]

Well what we have to realise is
A. They are investigating it meaning its not nesscarily as bad as the article states.

and

B. There are "Bad apples" in every group, I am confident most of the PMC's are Ex-Military men who are every bit as professional as the men and women in uniform.

Then again I am no expert, but this is my opinion.

[Argyll]

Not subject to any form of regulation? Surely that can't be true...

Full article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/27/ixworld.html).

You're correct it isn't true..........if you're a DoD card holder then you're subject to the UCMJ for starters,you're also subject to Iraqi Laws too,if you've registered and had approval to work in Iraq by the Iraqi Interior Ministry!!

[JoaMei]

Its from a british newspaper, it must be true. p-)

[10thvet]

I can add that if you work for DoS, then you can prosescuted by either the country you are in (in my case Afghanistan) or US law...

[Pai Mei]

I have not seen the videos, but it seems like they are trying to spin what otherwise is just combat footage. Its doubtful the videos contain how the incidents got started, just how they ended.

From above link:
>>A "trophy" video appearing to show security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians [...] four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars.<<

Having read that, anyone else think the Reporter does not know what he is talking about but is looking for an excuse to show the PMC's in the worst possible light anyway?

[Argyll]

I've seen the clips,and they're nothing short of idiots with Automatic weapons!!.......only one could be justifiable,the rest are assclowns!!

[Pai Mei]

I stand corrected. Has a precedent been set of the Iraqi gov't prosectuting PMCs?

[deccantrap]

Oops. Edit withdrawn.

[oregongrunt]

I've seen the clips,and they're nothing short of idiots with Automatic weapons!!.......only one could be justifiable,the rest are assclowns!!

Where's the clips so we can see them?

[Seraphim]

Where's the clips so we can see them?
In the video section...

[Wrath1]

Actually, most of the civilain contractors are not subject to the UCMJ or Iraqi laws.

I got into a bit of trouble and was investigated by CID in Bosnia. All the Army could do was simply not allow me on their base any more. Of course that meant I was fired from my civilian contractor job. Even though I carried an official SFOR ID card CID would have had to refer my case to a State side civilian jourisdiction for any kind of arrest, confinement or trial.

Of course the cost to the "arresting" agency back state side would be too expensive so I was simply given a plane ticket and released. It's up to the prosecution to prove guilt. This means the state or county would have to front the bill for all witness transportation. When we are talking overseas the bill can get into the tens of thousands very quickly. Unless a major crime is committed such as "aggrevated-rape" or "murder" the case will not be picked up by any state side agency. I've actually seen cases of rape and murder not be picked up because of the large cost of this so called bill.

In this case a prosecutor will not touch it because of how hard it would be to prove these contractors had the intent of murder. Manslaughter charges just wouldn't be a serious enough charge to warrent the amount of money to trie these contractors.

Take me now for instance. I work for the U.S. Government via a priave security company. I have no ties to the DOD and do not fall under the UCMJ.

All CID is doing when they investiage you is to determine you are a threat to U.S. National Security. If in fact you are deemed a threat in that "arena" then yes, you will be "****ed", so to speak!

"Military Contractors" do seem to have a "get out of jail free card" at times. I've seen it many times. If I were in Iraq and was an evil SOB and liked shooting up civllian vehicles who would fit the bill and take the responsiblity of prosecution. All I would have to say is the vehicle was acting suspicious and in an eratic manner. Of all the things going on in Iraq there isn't a prosecuter in his right mind who would pick up this case? Why, because he has to prove otherwise.

All that will happen to these contractors is, maybe, they will be fired from their jobs and sent home. That's it!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning their actions. I think it a cowerdly thing but, I wasn't there am I'm not the shooter so, who knows what the **** was in the man's mind?

Oh, on a side not; I'm not proud of the troube I got into in Bosnia. I was simply using this as an example. Let's just say "MI" left me out to dry! **** "MI".

Respectfully,

John

[Major Maxillary]

people don't like PMCs because they're effectively mercenaries. and socialists hate mercenaries.

[Argyll]

Yer talking fcuking shyte man!!!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

people don't like PMCs because they're effectively mercenaries. and socialists hate mercenaries.

I'm a socialist and I don't hat PMC's.

They have their uses. (Mine security in Africa/South America ect) and can prove more beneficial then using the military.

Their use in Iraq is a touchy subject. In the sense that not enough thought was given to the "post invasion" of Iraq. Simply due to the lack planning for the occupation it created political/security vacuume which lead to the explosion of PMC unlike any other conflict.

The result? Bad apples get through.

[Kekkonen]

Their use in Iraq is a touchy subject. In the sense that not enough thought was given to the "post invasion" of Iraq. Simply due to the lack planning for the occupation it created political/security vacuume which lead to the explosion of PMC unlike any other conflict.

The result? Bad apples get through.

The extra billions of $ it costs could have been quite usefull as well for boosting the Iraqi security (and then I'm not even talking about gunmen, but ambulances and so forth).

[Angelwings]

Is it so that the screening process for a PMC job looks more for competence than one's psychological profile that could reveal tendency for violence or lack of ethics/moral values(as signs of personality unstability)?

[sickofpretenders]

The extra billions of $ it costs could have been quite usefull as well for boosting the Iraqi security (and then I'm not even talking about gunmen, but ambulances and so forth).

Billions(s)? Not quite mate. I would estimate the total cost of all PMC's in iraq over a 3 year period would be less than 2 billion. That is in a war that has cost the US over 220 billion so far, and combined, PMC's make up the second largest force in the country. Money well spent I would say.

[Kekkonen]

Billions(s)? Not quite mate. I would estimate the total cost of all PMC's in iraq over a 3 year period would be less than 2 billion. That is in a war that has cost the US over 220 billion so far, and combined, PMC's make up the second largest force in the country. Money well spent I would say.

How are you able to estimate that to something so precise as "less than 2 billion"? From what I have heard even the grand commander Dubya himself had problems estimating the costs and had to ask for more money... how many times?

But of course you guys are a little sensitive to criticism right now after this video was leaked to the public which obviously wasn't intended, and the public starts asking questions, questions that you don't like to answer obviously. But from the "shut the fu.ck up you co.ckholsters since you haven't been here"-type of replies from you guys I'm starting to think about reports that there is how many, three working ambulances in Baghdad, and the main reason to that is the lack of funds. I care and feel for the Iraqi civilians primarily since it's their country and first after that I care about you.

Yadda yadda this thread will be locked anyway so I will just leave it that. Have fun there in Iraqi.

[Argyll]

yes 3-4 ambulances would be about right,but would you like to pass judgement on why the Iraqi red crescent donated $1 million dollars to the Hurricane Katrina fund,instead of sorting out their own needs first?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63513

If you cared for the Iraqi people you'd be volunteering for MSF or USAID and showing them face to face you cared!!

[Kryart]

Could this be SUV used in the shooting.(All the way to the right)
http://www.aegisiraq.co.uk/images/Victory3.jpg
Taken from Aegis' web site.

[Argyll]

It would have been something similar......the video's appeared to be Landcruisers


Kekkonen this is for you!!

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1001/kekkonen8vu.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kekkonen8vu.jpg)

[Kekkonen]

Or maybe it was the one on the left ;) As you stated earlier, no need to second-guess since we don't know.

[edit]I hope it warms you heart when I say this, but I actually gave you a thought when I was out driving earlier, and yeah I suppose it is possible to see the sign from some distance, although I'm note sure about if I would see it from 100 meters, my eyesight is just as good that I don't need glasses. Although it must be clearly easier to see the white text on a black background than that red/blue on a white background.

[Argyll]

LOL..........yeah when I was dropping off my daughter to school I was looking about at vans with writing on them,I could some 200m's plus,I'm by no means an Eagle eye..............alas they mean fek all if you cannot read,or are out of your head on alcahol or drugs!(Yes it happens frequently in Iraq)........now here's a big debate for the chairborne brigade SF out there,is shooting vehicles that you deem a threat as bad as using WP in an Urban environment,where you're not sure about a threat?

Dilema's ...........dilema's ..........dilema's......p-)