EU proposes tough penalties if member states have secret CIA prisons

[ed316]

EU proposes tough penalties if member states have secret CIA prisons
08:36:23 EST Nov 28, 2005


BERLIN (AP) - The European Union's justice commissioner warned Monday that any EU countries found to have operated secret CIA prisons could have their EU voting rights suspended.
His comment came as the Council of Europe - the continent's main human rights watchdog - investigates reports that the CIA set up secret jails in some European countries and transported terror suspects by covert flights. It has urged governments to fully provide information on the issue.
"I would be obliged to propose to the council serious consequences, including the suspension of voting rights," Franco Frattini said at a counterterrorism conference.


© The Canadian Press, 2005

[LaoSexMachine]

yeah, if they can find them....

[cut]

yeah, if they can find them....

makes sense

[Marmot1]

F*** EU, if we want we can have as many prisons as we want, it's up to country policy, not EU to decide, if we want to cooperate with other countries (USA) then we will do it. Last time I checked there was no common EU foreign policy, so if we want to have those bastards keept in poland for "vacations" then we will have them.

[Kekkonen]

F*** EU, if we want we can have as many prisons as we want, it's up to country policy, not EU to decide, if we want to cooperate with other countries (USA) then we will do it. Last time I checked there was no common EU foreign policy, so if we want to have those bastards keept in poland for "vacations" then we will have them.

I think you are wrong, EU can decide that. Remember that when you applied for EU membership and joined the union you also willingly accepted that EU law stands over your national law. Even though national law is what is first applied on a case, EU law has the "last word" if there is a conflicting opinion. The Court of Justice of the European Communities ensures this.


Its job is to make sure that EU legislation is interpreted and applied in the same way in all EU countries, so that the law is equal for everyone. It ensures, for example, that national courts do not give different rulings on the same issue.

The Court also makes sure that EU member states and institutions do what the law requires. The Court has the power to settle legal disputes between EU member states, EU institutions, businesses and individuals.

http://europa.eu.int/institutions/court/index_en.htm

You joined the union willingly, now it's time for you to stop pretending you want to play with USA and not with us.

[cut]

F*** EU, if we want we can have as many prisons as we want, it's up to country policy, not EU to decide, if we want to cooperate with other countries (USA) then we will do it. Last time I checked there was no common EU foreign policy, so if we want to have those bastards keept in poland for "vacations" then we will have them.

there is some Common EU foreign policy, but that's not the point. Poland did sign up to certain treaties to do with human rights, so if they wanted to they would be perfectly entitled to impose penalties, after all we are putting a lot of money in poland, to strengthen ties rather then distance them. But don't worry, the EU wouldn't put penalties on Poland, it's more likely that leaders will have a word, to convince you. The threat of penalties probably aimed at smaller countries that that are getting a lot of structure funds.

[Kitsune]

And it's not as if the club sends goons to your house to bash you up. It just prohibits you to enter the club facilites and to partake in club meetings and votings. And that is quite its right.

[stuntman]

I like the Euro's better when the Commies were pointing nukes and 40,000 tanks at em... The good O'l days...

[FallenAngel]

question- is the mere existence of these supposed prisons the issue, or the fact that prisoners might have been tortured in said prisons?

[moughoun]

question- is the mere existence of these supposed prisons the issue, or the fact that prisoners might have been tortured in said prisons?
both, the idea that people scumbag's or not can disappear off the face of the planet into who know's what is something that remind's people here of the the "good old Day's" as the learned stuntman said when people would up and go in the middle of the night, now I'm not saying the US or who ever is doing nasty thing's there to these "people", it's just it raises uncomfortable memories for some...although I have to admit the last one's I'd expect to go along with this would be the former communist bloc countries, plus the fact that all EU and aspiring EU countries have signed the charter on human right's mean that if there is "torure" going on, then that's against the law....big time

[FallenAngel]

both, the idea that people scumbag's or not can disappear off the face of the planet into who know's what is something that remind's people here of the the "good old Day's" as the learned stuntman said when people would up and go in the middle of the night, now I'm not saying the US or who ever is doing nasty thing's there to these "people", it's just it raises uncomfortable memories for some...although I have to admit the last one's I'd expect to go along with this would be the former communist bloc countries, plus the fact that all EU and aspiring EU countries have signed the charter on human right's mean that if there is "torure" going on, then that's against the law....big time

Granted, I wouldn't agree with torture going on either, although I've never heard a consensus at where exactly one draws the line with regards to torture and thoroughly uncomfortable interrogation.

As for people disappearing in the middle of the night-- well, there's a reason for that. You can't really call up a terrorist cell and arrange an appointment for the following week at 1 pm in the afternoon to come arrest them now can you? And though I sympathize with European emotion on the issue, just because it may make some feel uneasy doesnt necessarily make it illegal.

And then you have an issue of trials. Which court? Under what charge? Testimony would be touchy-- you can't have countries divulging intelligence gathering techniques and human intel sources in an open court for all the world to see and hear. Then again if you make it a closed court then there will be people out there who scream conspiracy and cover-up just the same.

Naturally, this is all just a hypothetical discussion. So far IIRC no one has even proved these prisons exist, let alone what goes on there.

[moughoun]

I'll go along with you on 99% of what you said, except on the "just because it may make some feel uneasy doesnt necessarily make it illegal". actually here it is illegal to pick up people and hold them with out notice, warrant,charge or trial, we don't have the "illigal combatent" rational that the US does, scumbag, terrorist wanker or not, they have to have their Day in court sometime, we have the European convention on human right's here, and it supercedes national authority in this, although some Countries seem to push it's boundaries in certain area's, but as you've said, it's hypothetical...no prison's no proof, no problem

[Atlantic Friend]

Granted, I wouldn't agree with torture going on either, although I've never heard a consensus at where exactly one draws the line with regards to torture and thoroughly uncomfortable interrogation.

As for people disappearing in the middle of the night-- well, there's a reason for that. You can't really call up a terrorist cell and arrange an appointment for the following week at 1 pm in the afternoon to come arrest them now can you?

I don't think the choice of options we have isn't strictly between arresting people secretly in the middle of the night and begging terrorists to surrender. Whatever happened to police work, to counter-terrorism police units, to gathering intelligence through human and electronic assets and then use it ?


And though I sympathize with European emotion on the issue, just because it may make some feel uneasy doesnt necessarily make it illegal.

And though I sympathize with American feelings about this issue, just because it makes some feel good doesn't necessarily make it legal either.


And then you have an issue of trials. Which court? Under what charge?

Wait a minute, why can't we trust judges anymore, all of a sudden ? Why shouldn't we use normal courts ? Lack of competence ? Any country, like France can have special "anti-terrorist judges", for example.

As for charges, what's wrong with charging them with "association with terrorist activities" or "conspiracy to commit a crime" ? I mean, if you think you have enough intel on a guy to justify his being arrested in the middle of a night, flown to a secret detention camp, and maybe even being a little bit tortured, doesn't that mean you also have enough information to charge him with something serious ? I would certainly hope so !


Testimony would be touchy-- you can't have countries divulging intelligence gathering techniques and human intel sources in an open court for all the world to see and hear.

Terrorists have been put on trial before and condemned, and it never stopped prosecutors from using the evidence at their disposal while at the same time protecting their sources.


Then again if you make it a closed court then there will be people out there who scream conspiracy and cover-up just the same.

Isn't that the "policy of the worst" ? People will accuse us of horrible things whatever we do, so let's do these horrible things anyway ? When there are closed courts - to judge paedophiles' crime for example - people don't scream sconspiracy.

If the general public can understand, and in some times approve, the use of emergency powers, don't you think it would accept closed courts ? If you, a member of the public, are ready to approve secret arrests and detention, wouldn't you accept just as easily that terrorists are judged by closed courts?

[Esszett]

And it's not as if the club sends goons to your house to bash you up. It just prohibits you to enter the club facilites and to partake in club meetings and votings. And that is quite its right.

That's what it's all about.
It can't be that some country inside the EU hosts secret CIA prisons where god knows what happens (if it is really true).

It is right, the EU can't do anything about it directly but if said nation wants to benefit from all the advantages the EU has to offer they better be cooperative.
You know, noone is forced to participate in the EU and membership is not a right but a privilege.
This is something the government of such a nation should keep in mind (if such a nation exists).

[Kekkonen]

EU can't do anything about it directly

Once again, yes EU can do much about it:

http://europa.eu.int/institutions/court/index_en.htm

[Prometheus]

I like the Euro's better when the Commies were pointing nukes and 40,000 tanks at em... The good O'l days...

I like the Americans better when they were defending the free world against dictatorships, occupation, torture and other human right violations… the good old days… now the free world needs to be defended from US occupation and human right violations… times have changed ... unfortunately…

[Esszett]

Once again, yes EU can do much about it:

http://europa.eu.int/institutions/court/index_en.htm

Ok, so there is this European Court of Justice. So what?
The acception of its jurisdiction is more or less voluntary (means if you wanna stay in the EU you better do so).
It has to be executed on national level by national forces.
If a state in the EU decides not to follow the jurisdiction of the Court there is nothing the EU could do about it directly. Last time I checked the EU did not have own police or any other forces.
Only thing the EU could do is to expell the country which doesn't accept the Court.
That's what I wanted to say.

[Lanton]

This is a war people...it's not just a case of picking people up off of the street, interviewing them and hoping they cough up the intel you're looking for. You've to work on them and let them rot in the cell for while.

These aren't normal criminals (murderers, bank robbers etc.).

You've got to hold them and break them down mentally, to a point where they realise the game's up and they'll spill the beans. The people they're arresting and holding without charges being brought against them are, for the most part, wiley operators who think that all they've got to do is keep their gobs shut and hope they'll get released when their captors realise they're not gonna get any information out of them. They reckon that it'll just be a matter of time before they're released.

If the Americans want to do deals with their new best chums in Eastern Europe, to run secret detention facilities, then that's just too bad for the French and Germans, cos let's face it...it's basically the French and Germans who are making noises about all this. They want to reassert their influence over what they think are the EU's errant children.

[Esszett]

This is a war people...it's not just a case of picking people up off of the street, interviewing them and hoping they cough up the intel you're looking for. You've to work on them and let them rot in the cell for while.

These aren't normal criminals (murderers, bank robbers etc.).

You've got to hold them and break them down mentally, to a point where they realise the game's up and they'll spill the beans. The people they're arresting and holding without charges being brought against them are, for the most part, wiley operators who think that all they've got to do is keep their gobs shut and hope they'll get released when their captors realise they're not gonna get any information out of them. They reckon that it'll just be a matter of time before they're released.

If the Americans want to do deals with their new best chums in Eastern Europe, to run secret detention facilities, then that's just too bad for the French and Germans, cos let's face it...it's basically the French and Germans who are making noises about all this. They want to reassert their influence over what they think are the EU's errant children.

First of all let's keep in mind that nothing has been proven yet.
You know, here in the EU we need evidences first before punishing anyone. p-)
You sure it are just Germany and France being concerned about it?
Don't know where you have your knowledge from but as far as I heard the vast majority of other European states is very concerned about this issue as well.

In regard to your excursion on "gaining intelligence":
Let me just say that I'm glad that (most of (?)) our governments and (most of) the people in Europe don't agree with you at all.
You know to most Europeans it seems a bit strange to inprison people without charge and torture them a little bit (or "break them down mentally" like you put it) just to find out whether they might know something interesting or not.
Yeah I think that's just because we are all leftist wussies and stuff but hey, the EU is our thing and we can do what we want here.
And if there is a state within the EU which doesn't agree with us: Noone forces it to stay in the EU. Switzerland and Norway aren't part of the EU as well and have no problems to co-exist with the EU-states.
It is pretty likely that this would save the French and Germans (and other netto-payers of the EU) some billions they otherwise had to spend on this country.

[signatory]

Let me remind people of one case.

WASHINGTON, April 22 - A German citizen detained for five months in an Afghan prison was released in May 2004 on direct orders from Condoleezza Rice, then the national security adviser, after she learned the man had been mistakenly identified as a terror suspect, government officials said Friday.

So while some people will see that as an acceptable mistake the more sane minded would agree that it is indefinitely more important to free an innocent man in a quest to put away a suspect. If the prisons are kept secret then it's just a clear signal that the evidence if available wouldnt hold up in court.

Oh and right, the EU doesn't have "their laws" and members states have their "own", once you sign on to the treaties it is YOUR law, just as the geneva convention or an other treaty. If you break it, the organisation can apply appropriate measures upon you. Such as remove your voting rights.

[Lanton]

You know, here in the EU we need evidences first before punishing anyone.

You have to modify the tools in your shed to deal with emerging threats. We're not dealing with run of the mill criminals here. Once they've carried out their attacks, and you've got hundreds or thousands of people dead and injured, then that's that. You've got to go out there and prevent these people from carrying out the planned attacks in the first place, and to do that you've got to take risks and detain suspect individuals and sweat the intel out of them.

The vast majority of European governments actually supported the invasion of Iraq, back in 2003. Remember, back in 2003, the French berrated a number of Eastern European states for 'stepping out of line' for supporting the Americans over the invasion of Iraq.

[Atlantic Friend]

I like the Euro's better when the Commies were pointing nukes and 40,000 tanks at em... The good O'l days...

Basically, I too liked the world a lot more when we were more or less on the brink of some Soviet avalanche down the Fulda gap. It made much more sense then...

[LaoSexMachine]

if they are secret how in the hell could you find them

[foxtrot023]

Basically, I too liked the world a lot more when we were more or less on the brink of some Soviet avalanche down the Fulda gap. It made much more sense then...

Believe it or not, it seemed to be a much ¨orderly¨ in a geopolitical sense. Of course we had the drawback of MAD, or WW3....

[Atlantic Friend]

if they are secret how in the hell could you find them

Two possibilities here :

- if they are known of the local authorities, they are not secret. Leaks will happen, as info was leaked about suspicious flights over Iceland, Norway, etc.

- if they are kept secret from the local authorities, then these authorities will, sooner or later, and through rather simple police work, discover that there is a group of funny people on their territory who seem to be in the business of smuggling other people into the country, people who apparently are never to be seen again... This kind of discovery is VERY likely to be investigated, people, as local cops are usually not retards.

[Atlantic Friend]

Believe it or not, it seemed to be a much ¨orderly¨ in a geopolitical sense. Of course we had the drawback of MAD, or WW3....

Man, I DO believe you. The world made a whole lot of sense then, everybody knew where everyone else stood, and there were common interests for the nations on both sides. Now it's just a large free-for-all with lots of backstabbing and bickering.

Some days, I'd just welcome the rise of China or a Martian invasion if it meant bringing back some order around here !

[LaoSexMachine]

Two possibilities here :

- if they are known of the local authorities, they are not secret. Leaks will happen, as info was leaked about suspicious flights over Iceland, Norway, etc.

- if they are kept secret from the local authorities, then these authorities will, sooner or later, and through rather simple police work, discover that there is a group of funny people on their territory who seem to be in the business of smuggling other people into the country, people who apparently are never to be seen again... This kind of discovery is VERY likely to be investigated, people, as local cops are usually not retards.

washington post leaked them..so now the local authorities will have to check every cellar, basement, farmhouse, and S&M club in town.

[Esszett]

The vast majority of European governments actually supported the invasion of Iraq, back in 2003. Remember, back in 2003, the French berrated a number of Eastern European states for 'stepping out of line' for supporting the Americans over the invasion of Iraq.
And what does that have to do with secret CIA-prisons in Europe?



You have to modify the tools in your shed to deal with emerging threats. We're not dealing with run of the mill criminals here. Once they've carried out their attacks, and you've got hundreds or thousands of people dead and injured, then that's that. You've got to go out there and prevent these people from carrying out the planned attacks in the first place, and to do that you've got to take risks and detain suspect individuals and sweat the intel out of them.
Hmm, I agree with you in the point that it's necessary to take terrorists out before they can commit any crime.
But like Atlantic Friend very well said:


I mean, if you think you have enough intel on a guy to justify his being arrested in the middle of a night, flown to a secret detention camp, and maybe even being a little bit tortured, doesn't that mean you also have enough information to charge him with something serious ? I would certainly hope so !

With that I agree 100%.

[Lanton]

And what does that have to do with secret CIA-prisons in Europe?



Hmm, I agree with you in the point that it's necessary to take terrorists out before they can commit any crime.
But like Atlantic Friend very well said:


With that I agree 100%.

What are you gonna charge him with?; how about charging him with having the same name as the name of someone mentioned in a mobile phone call between an Islamic radical in Lyons and a mosque in Saudi Arabia. Or how about charging him with frequenting an online forum used by the members of a number of prominent Pakistani-based terrorist-funding charities?

We're fighting an unconventional war, and we've got to employ unconventional war-fighting techniques to fight it.

[Atlantic Friend]

What are you gonna charge him with?; how about charging him with having the same name as the name of someone mentioned in a mobile phone call between an Islamic radical in Lyons and a mosque in Saudi Arabia. Or how about charging him with frequenting an online forum used by the members of a number of prominent Pakistani-based terrorist-funding charities?

Er, does that mean that you approve the kidnapping, detaining and torturing of someone on the sole basis of this person having the same name that some guy mentioned in a mobile phone call ? Interesting.

In a normal police work, this person would be followed by LEO, so as to gather intel about whom he sees, how he lives, and what he does. It's only AFTER the information is gathered that you can begin to charge him with something, usually "association with a criminal/terrorist group" or "engaging in criminal/terrorist activities" (my wording).

Why, all of a sudden, can't we rely on the work of either professional law-enforcement officers and judges, and why do we have to trust more some guy whose only association with police work is to drill holmes through suspects's kneecaps ?


We're fighting an unconventional war, and we've got to employ unconventional war-fighting techniques to fight it.

Don't kid yourself, Lanton, this "war-fighting technique" is VERY conventional, and has been used time and time again, particularly in recent History.

Making people disappear in the middle of the night, denying them basic suspects' rights and torturing them to get information has been used by European colonial powers, Nazi Germany in occupied countries, the Soviet Union in Russia and Eastern Europe, Ceaucescu's Rumania, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and Saddam's Baathist regime in Iraq, among others.

It was so effective that all of these regimes, that were so deeply loved by their own citizenry and admired throughout the world, are still among us. Oh wait...

These techniques are still used in Assad' Syria, Kim Jong Il's North Korea, Ahmadinejad's Iran, Hu Jintao's China, etc... Great leaders all, fabulous regimes, a fantastic source of inspiration for free people everywhere.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Why in the hell doe the US insist that all the unsavoury work is done outside their own borders is it because the US has a fair and balanced legal system that prevents its officials wiring people up to the grid without embarking on a course of due process. Maybe the US should detain terror suspects in the US and stop sh*tting on everybody elses porch.

[Vorian]

I like the Americans better when they were defending the free world against dictatorships, occupation, torture and other human right violations… the good old days… now the free world needs to be defended from US occupation and human right violations… times have changed ... unfortunately…

I liked the US when they had their 'isolation policy' and suppressed only the american condinent. Btw, I sense a deep conflict between Europeans and Americans here. Europeans accuse US for imperialism and violation of human rights. Americans accuse Europe for being ungrateful, racists etc. I think we should ask the rest of the world who is worst.

[ElHombre]

Why in the hell doe the US insist that all the unsavoury work is done outside their own borders is it because the US has a fair and balanced legal system that prevents its officials wiring people up to the grid without embarking on a course of due process. Maybe the US should detain terror suspects in the US and stop sh*tting on everybody elses porch.

it's a question beginning to be asked over here as well.