France and Muslums

[obd]

Do you support the banning of Muslum headscarves and other overt religious symbols in the classroom??

I for one support it. Now this may seem obvious but I am oppossed to a great many aspects of many Muslum nations cultures, laws, traditions etc....For one, I see the headscarf itself as a simple tool of oppression existing under the guise of "modesty" and "protection" of women.

The simple fact of the matter is that the headscarf lowers women to the status of invisible strangers to the world. They have no face and thus, little identity outside thier own home where they are often kept as virtual prisoners.

I have a very personal relationship with the Islamic culture in that I have several Muslums in my family though marraige and I can tell you, from my own observations, what happens to women who join that culture and faith system:

My sister converted to Islam a little less than two years ago. She was my twin sister and we had been close all our lives. She was always a high achiever, getting the top grades at school and going to the best university in the state. She was outgoing, had many lifelong male freinds, and loved sports in which she was internationally ranked.

Since converting to Ilsam my sister has become insular and very isolated from everything. Her new Muslum husband drives her car around, doesnt support her working and being outside in the community, must account for her whereabouts at all times etc... My sister can no longer speak with her lifelong male freinds, one of whom was a mentor to her for years and helped her struggle through tough times. To speak with him now would be considered "imodest" of a good Muslum women, not to mention to be seen with him in public without her husband present to watch what was going on. He has come to many to ask what happened to my sister, to the person he knew and befriended for 6 years and all I can tell him is she has found something which resonates more powerfully to her than freindship, family and reason: a new religion

My sister now wears the Burkha which was pushed on her by her husband as soon as they got married and he "owned" her. She accepted that because she wanted to be a "good Muslum". Now, she can no longer be recognized by her freinds in public, she cannot be seen by anyone. In a sense she has been shut off from the world as a human being. She must wear multiple layers of clothing even on the hottest of days to hide any curve which a man might recognize as female... She is lowered to nothing more than a black formless sheet moving through a crowd....

I dont care what anyone else may say, the Burkha is a symbol of slavery of women. No matter how many women support it (hell there are brainwashed people who think Kim Jon Il is a God and thier were black slaves who would have, if asked, supported slavery) I say it should be fought agaisnt. It is a tool of oppression forced upon women under the guise of being an integral part of the faith and thus relgigously necesarry. An ingenious system if you ask me but long used by sick people to force thier will on others who would otherwise be free...... Being accepting of different culture is no excuse for defending this abhorrant and immoral practice in which half the population are treated as property and have few rights. In Muslum cultures woman and men are not suppossed to date and thus marraiges are often done by parents and are not a matter of choice for the individual....this is wrong.

I think there must be limits to "cross cultural relativism" and acceptance and at some point a person has to stand up and say "this is wrong" and must be fought against. A good example would be "honor killings" in which it is socially acceptable in some Mulsum, nations to kill a women (but not a man) to defend the family honor....this is sick and twisted.

Im sorry but Muslum culture is a threat to my values of democracy, capitalism, freedom of religion, etc etc etc. I know its kind of hypocritical to say I support freedom of religion but not Islam so I will rephrase: I support freedom of religion's which do not seek to impose thier will upon others through the use of force or any other form of coercion. I see Islam as primarily spread through vilolence and force and war. From its beginnings it was spread through violent conquest and this continues today. Example would Mohamed's betrayal of the Jews, whom he slaughtered after only ligning a truce to regroup (this is now well celebrated by Arabs and I dont blame them seeing as how its the only time they have kicked Jewish ass in history!!!!!!!)

I say the non-Muslum world needs to take a cold hard look at the culture of the Middle east in particular and see it as a ideological enemy just as Communism. Islam is the enemy of all those who bleieve in equality of the sexes, freedom of religion, capitalism, etc etc etc. An Islamic society is an unjust and oppressive one.....

"I would rather be a dog in America than a Muslum women in Afghanistan" quote from US special froces officer after a drug raid in northeast A-stan

[ShadowNeo]

Personally, I think it is very stupid to generalise your personal experiences and apply them to all Muslims. You seem to think that all Muslims act in this manner, and that is not the case.

I grew up and schooled alongside Muslim girls who wore headscarves, and some who did not. Their parent's gave them the choice of whether they wanted to wear them. I am not saying that this is by any means a common occurrence throughout Muslims, but it is proof that modern Islam can be just as flexible with its rules as any other religion. Furthermore, this was a Roman Catholic primary school, which went out of its way to cater for all religions, respecting the religious practices of others.

[UoUo]

It very shame that france decision to ban the headcover.....
Every man have the right to choose how to live....as long as they do it under the law.


And belive me...it only the start.

And i am israeli...be sure that i know how to live hand to hand with Muslims. some are bad...some are good. you cant say 1 thing on an Entire pop'.

[cut]

I second that

[Falco]

They banned the religious symbols because they go against the 5th republic. It is said somewhere (I'm not sure) that every citizens should not have traits that will identify him as belonging to a certain group.

[cut]

UoUO, I agree with everything you said but, what do you mean by this?




And belive me...it only the start.

[UoUo]

They banned the religious symbols because they go against the 5th republic. It is said somewhere (I'm not sure) that every citizens should not have traits that will identify him as belonging to a certain group.

And why not?
If i walk with a "david star" or "kipa" in the school...how that can heart anyone?

[cut]

I think they are only trying to make it equal. Besides wearing a Star of David is allowed.

[UoUo]

UoUO, I agree with everything you said but, what do you mean by this?




And belive me...it only the start.



I mean...this law is only the start...what will france do when the muslims will grow more and more...and masqe will be every where.

BTW : anyone know how many % is the muslims in france?

[ShadowNeo]

I think that particular law aims for equality in theory, be could have quite negative effects in practice. I don't know about the laws concerning religious schools in france, but over the long term, could this law see less mixing between religions in public schools and a growth in specific religion catering schools?

Given the current situation our society as a whole faces, denying people of their religious identities, in my opinion, does not seem like the best thing to do.

[Falco]

They banned the religious symbols because they go against the 5th republic. It is said somewhere (I'm not sure) that every citizens should not have traits that will identify him as belonging to a certain group.

And why not?
If i walk with a "david star" or "kipa" in the school...how that can heart anyone?

Not now but during the second world war it would have. When the first democratic french government was created after the revolution, it tried to make everybody equal, from the royalty (or what was left of it) to the peasents. They didn't want to have any visible signs that someone belonged to a certain group. What we are seeing to day is the application of this principal.

[cut]

UoUO, I agree with everything you said but, what do you mean by this?




And belive me...it only the start.



I mean...this law is only the start...what will france do when the muslims will grow more and more...and masqe will be every where.

BTW : anyone know how many % is the muslims in france?

I know the percentage is made to sound a lot more by american right-wing "islamification" fools. I'll find an exact percentage but to start with...


Religion
Ninety per cent of the French population are Roman Catholic with only two percent Protestant. There are Jewish and Muslim minorities.

CIA factbook being precise


Roman Catholic 83%-88%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 5%-10%, unaffiliated 4%

[fantassin]

Those threads that keep on popping up about the scarf show little understanding of the situation in France.

The last gathering of pro-scarf moslem (women herded by bearded men) attracted less than 900 demonstrators in Paris...a lot of moslem women are very happy to now have the law to put between their brothers and fathers who keep on suppressing them. This way it'll make their integration into society easier.

And for the unpteenth time, it's NOT a law banning the wearing of scarves or kipa or whatever else EVERYWHERE; it's just in public buildings and at school.

[steel bonnet]

Well l think FRANCE actually are doing the RIGHT thing.

If you could Drive out the Religious Tanglings from Society,l believe you would have a more sharing population.
I don`t think it`s Skin colour anymore that is the greater evil (though some still cling & claim that). It is RELIGION that is the route of ALL EVIL & Trouble.

Take RELIGION away & l do truely believe you could have a more tolerant & peacefull mixed population.

I`m NOT bashing Islamics,l`m BASHING ALL religions. There as Crooked & as Oppressive as each other.

So Go France,just ashame the UK Gov,will never have the decency to impliment the same. As there too busy running scared of being None PC & being called Racist.

Ja
Steel Bonnet

[UoUo]

UoUO, I agree with everything you said but, what do you mean by this?




And belive me...it only the start.



I mean...this law is only the start...what will france do when the muslims will grow more and more...and masqe will be every where.

BTW : anyone know how many % is the muslims in france?

I know the percentage is made to sound a lot more by american right-wing "islamification" fools. I'll find an exact percentage but to start with...


Religion
Ninety per cent of the French population are Roman Catholic with only two percent Protestant. There are Jewish and Muslim minorities.

CIA factbook being precise


Roman Catholic 83%-88%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 5%-10%, unaffiliated 4%

Oh...you see? what will france do when the muslims turn to be 20%?

[cut]

UoUO, I agree with everything you said but, what do you mean by this?




And belive me...it only the start.



I mean...this law is only the start...what will france do when the muslims will grow more and more...and masqe will be every where.

BTW : anyone know how many % is the muslims in france?

I know the percentage is made to sound a lot more by american right-wing "islamification" fools. I'll find an exact percentage but to start with...


Religion
Ninety per cent of the French population are Roman Catholic with only two percent Protestant. There are Jewish and Muslim minorities.

CIA factbook being precise


Roman Catholic 83%-88%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 5%-10%, unaffiliated 4%

Oh...you see? what will france do when the muslims turn to be 20%?

It has taken 50 years to get to "5-10%" (although most sites put it closer to 5%, I don't think they have much to worry about do you? Even at 20% they would be far from being able to do what the extreme right wing american hacks say.

[obd]

I would just like to mentions that I am not basing my opinion solely on my sisters transformation for the worse upon converting to Islam. I was simply using it as an example to illustrate a VERY VERY widespread and sustemic problem within Muslum culture. Of course there are secular and moderate Muslums. I never denied that. What I am saying is that, when taken as a whole, the Muslum faith is extremely oppressive and thier are few places in this world where Muslums have power that also have laws that protect freedom of religion, equality of women, freedom of speech, etc.

The simpy fact is that the majority of Muslum nations are opressive environments and the majority of Muslum societies are extremely backward. Even in places like Malaysia and Indonesia there are struggles to insitute sharia law and punish people who do not prescribe to the Islamic faith. It is in the very nature, the very design and founding principles, or the Islamic faith and the Muslum culture to use violence and oppression to propogate itself.

From its very begining, Islam has not been about "acceptance" or "inclusion" but it HAS been about conversion by the sword and by coercive means against people wills. Even in the best examples of Muslum societies where Christians and Jews were allowed to live in relative peace, lawd existed to marginalize them and basically wipe them out slowely by retricting the practice of thier faith heavily as well as taxing them more heavily then Muslums. Al Andalus in Spain back when it was under Muslum control before the reconquista when the Spanish fought back and took what the Muslums stole from them would be one of the few "good" examples of a somewhat tolerant Muslum society......

I repeat, I am not saying that ALL Muslums are bad or dangerous or wish to do anything other than live peaceful lives and provide for thier children as best they can. What I am saying however is that, as a global pattern, Islam is not a postivie example of human accomplishment on this planet. It is instead a backward, violent, and oppressive system that seeks to dominate conversions through force. One can simply look at early Muslum history during the time of the prophit, curse be upon him, who waged bloody war against all those in disagreement with him, inluding his underhanded genocide of the Jews of an entire village of which many Arabs are proud of today as "an exmaple of how to defeat the Zionist pig Jews".

I still say that Islam is a system of thought and attempted civilization, just as all religions are, which is negative and needs to be fought against. I think it is a social construct which needs to be undermined, marginalized, and eventually destroyed as part of a long term effort to clean it from this planet. Theocide you say?? Well maybe I am advocating theocide. Im not advocating wiping out all Muslums on this earth right now but I am advocating we seek to weaken all Muslum societies and be carefull not to let too many Muslums flee thier own failed attempts at civilization only to wreck the places that accept them in too many numbers......

Simple fact: At some point the level of Muslums in a society will reach critical mass in terms of thier real power, percieved power, etc and they will vote to change that society into one of thier own fitting and this will most likely be a negative thing for people wishing for freedom of speech, freedom of religion, equality of the sexes, etc etc etc.... Just use virtually any Muslum society as your model please and not some idealized Islamic model which uses select Koranic passages translated in a certain manner to justify your argument!!!! Also ask youself before you respond: Would I wish to live in a Muslum society and would I wish my son and daughter to grow up under Muslum sharia??

[UoUo]

UoUO, I agree with everything you said but, what do you mean by this?




And belive me...it only the start.



I mean...this law is only the start...what will france do when the muslims will grow more and more...and masqe will be every where.

BTW : anyone know how many % is the muslims in france?

I know the percentage is made to sound a lot more by american right-wing "islamification" fools. I'll find an exact percentage but to start with...


Religion
Ninety per cent of the French population are Roman Catholic with only two percent Protestant. There are Jewish and Muslim minorities.

CIA factbook being precise


Roman Catholic 83%-88%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 5%-10%, unaffiliated 4%

Oh...you see? what will france do when the muslims turn to be 20%?

It has taken 50 years to get to "5-10%" (although most sites put it closer to 5%, I don't think they have much to worry about do you? Even at 20% they would be far from being able to do what the extreme right wing american hacks say.

Yes but what with the imgriants? they come all the time....anyway...as i Said ...the france people will start to be scared by huge number of Muslims in their country.

Anyway...i am not supporting this law.
Every man have the right for do what he want..under the law.

[obd]

Also when you say france is mostly Roman Catholic that really isnt true. Religion has been on the decline in Europe over the last decades and I beg to differ on those figures. Most French, and many Europeans, may identify themselves when asked as a particular religious affiliation but many do not practive thier faith at all and are rather secular in thier beliefs. The chruch has been on the decline for years in Europe. Hopefully, the last remnanats of it will vanish forever soon but with all the Muslums coming into France I think some French may go back to church again as a knee jerk defense against Islam. By the way, those stupid morning calls to the faithful to pray are REALLY REALLY annoying. Should the entire F'ing planet haveto know when the damn Muslums get up for ther ritual brainwashing or what??

[cut]

Yes but what with the imgriants? they come all the time....anyway...as i Said ...the france people will start to be scared by huge number of Muslims in their country.


less than 10% is nowhere near a huge number, and with an ever closer union being more likely than anyhting else over a long period of time the number of arabs will become more diluted.
France will never have a problem with arabs in my opinion, because:
1) the longer they are there the more they will incorporate themselves and be incorporated into French society.
2) they can never lay claim to France so an Israel-type situation is also impossible.

[fantassin]

I think some French may go back to church again as a knee jerk defense against Islam

Very true...you should see Notre Dame around Christmas time; it's like a flag to many people who gather in and around it. Believers or not !

[Tengu]

I support it!!!

There is a debat going on in belgium at the the moment to ban all religious symbols in public schools and government buildings. I hope the law passes and it prolly will.
The main reason for the law is to combat inequality.

[cut]

Also when you say france is mostly Roman Catholic that really isnt true. Religion has been on the decline in Europe over the last decades and I beg to differ on those figures. Most French, and many Europeans, may identify themselves when asked as a particular religious affiliation but many do not practive thier faith at all and are rather secular in thier beliefs. The chruch has been on the decline for years in Europe. Hopefully, the last remnanats of it will vanish forever soon but with all the Muslums coming into France I think some French may go back to church again as a knee jerk defense against Islam. By the way, those stupid morning calls to the faithful to pray are REALLY REALLY annoying. Should the entire F'ing planet haveto know when the damn Muslums get up for ther ritual brainwashing or what??

You have no idea what you are on about, when was the last time you went to france and actually met french people? or understood french society?

[UoUo]

"2) they can never lay claim to France so an Israel-type situation is also impossible.
"

You can exsplain me what did you mean? soory but my english is bad....maybe you can say it with diffrend words? :oops:

[Tengu]

I like to add something.

The koran doesnt say that women are supposed to wear headscrafs but it does say (among other awfull things) that a man is worth more than a woman, the man has the right to beat his wife,...

[stephane from Paris]

Muslims are 8%

And most of french don't beleive in god!
this law isn't due to the 5th republic but to an early 20th century law!
The first law which seperate religion and state was from 1789 revolution!

Since several years Islamist integrist helped by saudi's, pakistani's, Lybian's, Iranian's, UAE's, Koweit's money try to manipulate muslims here!
They says, Coran is the only law, not Republican law!
They try to attack our society in every aspect:
They ask (and had it in some town) for a reserved swimming pool day for muslim women, a woman doctors in Hospital, to be exempted from sports, biology... in school and more.
They imported the Israelis/palestinians conflicts!
Just an example:
In the Rennes university, muslims students had the right to wear their headscarf!! And these girls did an islamic association to promote this "way of life directly imported from Mid East" when their north african countries don't use it.
The other muslims girls cry that this association start to menace them and reacted by doing another association which defend the right to choose for them!

With satelite TV, with the Christians+jews/muslims conflicts, with their number we see the rise of a muslim nationalism where bin laden or sadam's are heroes.
We must act know or we will have a new Balkan in several years!

UO you have 20% of arab minority in Israel, do you correct me if i say that on their identity card you mention their origin????????????
It seems that 20% of israelis aren't perfect citizen!
Here we don't want that! You are french that's all!!! You can be jew, christian or muslim you're french but you 'll have to respect the common laws!
Are the brits workers/pakistanis riots 2years ago a good example of the society we have to build!!????

[cut]

"2) they can never lay claim to France so an Israel-type situation is also impossible.
"

You can exsplain me what did you mean? soory but my english is bad....maybe you can say it with diffrend words? :oops:

I'll try..

most of muslims in france as with all imigrants started comming to France after, WWII, when there was a need for workers, therefore unlike in Israel where muslims and jews have lived for centuries, france will never be likely to turned into a muslim state or even for french muslims to want that to happen.

[Tengu]

idd europe is becomming more and more atheist (and I like it). Ppl will learn that the law of the government is above the law of their gods.
Don't like it?? Get he **** out!!

[UoUo]

"2) they can never lay claim to France so an Israel-type situation is also impossible.
"

You can exsplain me what did you mean? soory but my english is bad....maybe you can say it with diffrend words? :oops:

I'll try..

most of muslims in france as with all imigrants started comming to France after, WWII, when there was a need for workers, therefore unlike in Israel where muslims and jews have lived for centuries, france will never be likely to turned into a muslim state or even for french muslims to want that to happen.

Oh i see.

BTW: israel will never turn into a muslim country as well :D ;)

[Tengu]

Oh i see.

BTW: israel will never turn into a muslim country as well :D ;) woot

[Sixgun Symphony]

There is a large and growing muslim population in France. In about five more decades, France will come under Shaaria laws.

[cut]

Oh i see.

BTW: israel will never turn into a muslim country as well :D ;)

damn right

[Tengu]

There is a large and growing muslim population in France. In about five more decades, France will come under Shaaria laws.They will rather die before that ever happens. Same goes for my country.

But don't worry. The right parties in europe are becomming more popular. woot

[Miles Teg]

And for me this law can be simply seen like this :

In classroom you must show a minimum respect to the master/professor/teacher.
Some elementar rules :
No chewing gums
Correct clothes
Remove headcovers from all sort (baseball caps, hat,bonnie, baclava ;) yes I try this...)
...

And for little school (I mean primary and for children) this i a prove of hygiene which some methods are learn in class.

And for some reason of our republican rules. The lesson don't have to be biased, as the environnement, so no politics or religions are shown. Only in lessons from an external and objective view.

Lot of greatings to OBD who made a lot of efforts to retrieve the use of his Backspace key.

[Royal]

OBD for once I actually agree with you, at least about the banning of overt religious symbols, but the crap that you've spouted about Islam being the root of all evil, spread by the sword and flame is just that, crap.

Yes Islam has been spread into Africa and parts of Southern Europe, but the majority of converts (at least as far as Spain and the Balkans - the limit of my knowledge) simply went with the flow - it's always easier to agree with your master.

Far more suffering has been caused by the forced conversion to Christianity in Europe, Africa, the America's and to a lesser extent Asia.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

There is a large and growing muslim population in France. In about five more decades, France will come under Shaaria laws. And also by that time most of the Southern and Western US states will have Spanish as their first language.......cool woot

[SeanAshi]

Life would be less complicated being atheist, but eternal damnation is great motivation in believing in the almighty, and following his righteous ways.

[Jacko]

Yeah, but if you're an atheist, you wouldn't believe in eternal damnation anyways. ;)

[cut]

rofl eternal damnation, sounds so arcaic

[Luxembourger]

support the banning of Muslum headscarves

I support it ! if you live in a foreign country with another religion. then damn respect the law!--> and t s only for public buidlings.

I heard that universities in FRance will not be affected.
If you wear a cross and go to a muslim country,,,,,,,hell you will get into trouble

[cut]

support the banning of Muslum headscarves

I support it ! if you live in a foreign country with another religion. then damn respect the law!--> and t s only for public buidlings.

I heard that universities in FRance will not be affected.
If you wear a cross and go to a muslim country,,,,,,,hell you will get into trouble

if you wear a CCCP top in the states you don't get in trouble

[Luxembourger]

if you wear a CCCP top in the states you don't get in trouble
yeah but I guess if you worn a CCCP t-shirt during cold war that would have caused trouble,,,,which would be understandable

[Caesar]

I remember something similar happened here in Quebec. A Muslim kid went to school with his ritual knife.
Everyone was very offended.
Why could he be wearing a knife becaueas it is part of his religion?
I think it's unacceptable under any circunstances.

Hey, I'm gonna create my own religion and bring knives...

Anyway, all I remember next was that the kid's parents were offended as well ans blamed our society, claiming the right to practice their religion.

IDIOT

France are the pioneer in creation of new laws (religion, 35 hours/week...) As for now, they did well.

[DPGLAW]

I do support this ban, not because of my dislike or predjudices, whatever you want to call it, of Muslims. I agree with it because when I was in HighSchool there were "codes" as far as what out t-shirts or hats, etc. could say. The reasons we were given is that it was either distracting or offensive (depending on what the shirt said) to some. I think that the towels they wear fall into the same category.

In addition, I am not sure what the french law is as far as seperation of church and state but if they have a similar law as we do here in the US then I would say that the towels they wear on their heads fall into that category. Although the school may not be teaching islam by allowing such an obviously islamic representation they are supporting it which may be a conflict between church and state. However, as I said I do not know what the french laws are in relation to church/state so I could be way off base if they do not have such laws. If this is the case please correct me and I will edit my post accordingly...

[Durandal]

Any poster in this thread that claims religion is evil is a fool. Personal faith and the organized elements that people join to follow that faith are a part of every day life...and a natural right.

A government that prevents a person their faith is no better in my eyes than the very religios groups we fear.

I have to say that in this case, France is VERY wrong. This will probably end up biting them in the ass in the not to distant future.

I have to be honest folks, this is hard core totalitarianism/facism...disguised as some freak form of "protection".

Sorry for being so hard on it, but I am calling it like I see it. Yes, I know they are not attacking faith in general, just in State sponsored buildings such as schools, but hey folks, you do NOT leave your faith at the damn door.

And hell, I am agnostic! :)

Edit: For as pro-Liberty as I have seen France in the past and the present, this ain't liberty.

[serbian boy]

I think extremist religions such as Jehovas Witness, Islam, the knife carrying thinga-majiggie should be banned from schools and workplaces.
Only christianity should be allowed. woot

[cut]

Islam extremist? :cantbeli:

[Haiw]

I think extremist religions such as Jehovas Witness, Islam, the knife carrying thinga-majiggie should be banned from schools and workplaces.
Only christianity should be allowed. woot
...Also, all Asian-looking and black-colored people should be nailed to burning crosses, and the Christianity will rule the world again... :roll:

Anyway, I don't really get this whole thing. I mean, seperating school and religion is one thing, but why forbid people the headscarves and all. I mean, that's just wrong. It's an exercition of religion, and something like that is even one of the universal human rights...

[cut]

"There's two things I can't stand, Racists and Dutch people" ;)

Good ol' Michael Caine

[Haiw]

Damn, if you're gonna quote, at least get it right... :(

"There's two things in this world I can't stand. People that are intollerant of other cultures....and the DUTCH."

[UkrainianAmerican]

Islam extremist? :cantbeli:
Yes.

[cut]

Islam extremist? :cantbeli:
Yes.

so you actually believe all islam is extremist? You are saying that one of my best mates from school when I was 9 or 10 is an extremist, the man that keeps his shop around the open an extra 5 mins for me, whne he knows I have a late seminar is an extremist?

[cut]

Damn, if you're gonna quote, at least get it right... :(

"There's two things in this world I can't stand. People that are intollerant of other cultures....and the DUTCH."


:petting: too right I'm very sorry Haiw I'll try and get it right next time ;)

[EYE SPY]

1) Muslims dont have ritual knives, Sikh's on the other hand do. All Sikh males have a dagger that is part of their religion. There are large communities of Sikhs and other South Asian peoples in Canada, Sikh's are not Muslims. Infact Sikhs and Muslims hate each other more than Muslims and Hindus.

2) I agree with many of the European members on this board that the headscarf should be banned. Infact in my parents homeland (The Turkish Republic), the headscarf and veil and even the Fez has been banned for 75+ years since Ataturk made his reforms.

3) The problem with some of these Europeans on this board is that their arguments are tainted by their Neo-Fascist views. Neo-Facism is a disturbing new phenomenon in Europe for the past 10 years. How else can you explain the large groups of Skinheads in Britain, France, Poland and Russia these days when these were the nations most affected by Hitler's warmongering. I am not gonna get into this now, if anybody wants we can get into this on another thread.

4) I believe veils, burkhas, headscarves and whatever else that make it hard to identify a person should be banned. For pure security reasons this should not be allowed. For other reasons as well. How can a teacher or professor identify the student that is taking the exam if all they see throught the semester is a walking bedsheet.

5) Did you notice that many of the 9/11 hijackers, members of Al-Qaeda, and those involved in the Palestinian uprising such as "The Engineer" are all western educated and grew up in places like Germany, France and England (Richard Reid).

6) These European countries operate on multicultarism and allows groups to differentiate from other groups. But herein lies the problem. When groups are allowed to de facto segregate it creates a rift with them and the native population. Psychologically this will lead to alienation by the new-arrivals or their first generation offspring, and at the same time it will raise fear in the natives. Many of these terrorists, in one way or another can be diagnosed with one or more psychosis. Constant alienation can lead to paranoia, extreme anger and moodswings, violence and unstable characters.

Being in such an antagonizing atmosphere causes the immigrant population to try to reach any vestige of their culture or what they may assume is their culture(Wahabbist extremism) At the same time the organizations that cater to this alienation and disenfranchisment and fear are full of demagogues and crooks (Yasar Arafat, Osama Bin Laden, Jean Le-Pen).

Eventually the psychosis will get to such a point, that the demagogues can channel it for thier own political and economic agendas with thoroughly brainwashed foot soldiers.

7) The United States is an excellant example of how to counter such things. Throughout its existence the United States of America is the one nation where any ethnic group will learn to co-exist with others, even some who would be mortal enemies in the Old World. Why? Because what it is to be American does not have anything to do with your culture, ethnic group or language. America through its egaliteraian and liberal foundations has been able to assimilate foreingers into its social fabric, perhaps not in one generation but certainly within three generations. (I do not know how long this will last, because of high volumes of immigrants passing into the nation)

8) There is historical precidence to this in Europe as well. When Napoleon first came into power, one of the common Questions that arose in France was, what is a Frenchmen, who is a frenchmen, what makes one a frenchman. The problem came with what to do with the few jews that lived in france. Many viewed these jews as alien, and non-french. Napoleon the product and member of the Enligtenment didnt belive in religion, but understood it was a necessary evil basically told the Jews (listen, follow your religion, speak your language, do your rituals, wear your own clothes, but do them in your home. when your outside, speak French, follow French national traditions & dress French. This basically smoothed over the whole fiasco.

What france and western europe in general needs to do is assimilate these algerian, morroccan, jordanian, pakistani, kurdish, turkish, indian, chinese populations. Make them part of European society. Make them go to State schools, not Christian, Jewish or Muslim funded schools, but secular schools. Make all class room instruction in French, or German, or English. Give them a stake in society.

Hell look at the United States, for years bilingual education was big in the us. Spanish for spanish kids, english for american kids. what happened, hispanics social, plolitical and economic standing remained low while whites grew. In California, when the population voted to ban bilingual education, some of the biggest beneficiaries were mexican kids, many parents were extremely happy, becuase now thier little Pedro, or Pablo, or Juanita can now speak english fluently and get a job in a real corporation with real responsibilty. the rest of the United States should follow suite. France should do the same with itself.

9) Look at Turkey, islamic groups in Turkey are pretty non-existent, The current Islamist (not Islamic, -ist as opposed to -ic) party is called the Justice and Development party. Its ideology is actually pretty similar to the European Christian-Democrat parties.
Germany on the otherhand with its multicultarims has allowed terrist cheerleading organizations like Kallifstaat to form. This is an islamic organization that is out to Turn Turkey into a Sharia state. How ludicrous, but the Germans allow it, due to thier inability, or perhaps indifference or fear of assimilating these peoples. These Turkish and Kurdish expatriates left Turkey for Germany, grew up in Germany feeling like outsiders (because they were never included into society) hell they are still considered "Guest Workers", after30 years are you still a guest? or a member of the society. After living under one or two generations of this alienation they yearn for what they think their homeland was, and is today. But they are wrong, so now they want to come back to thier homeland "Turkey" but surprise surprise Turks in turkey dont want none of that sharia.

So what are we left with, people who are not welcomed where they ahve lived for their whole life, but also cannot go back to thier original homeland. These are people with little to hold on to psychologically and are very vulnurable to a demagogue like Osama Bin Laden.

10)
Some notes on Islam and what it says in the Koran.
The Koran does not say women have to be veild. INfact veiling is a cultural not Religious phenomenon. But many offshoots and heretical sects, Wahabis, Ismailis, the Taliban, and a dozen others pervert the religion in the name of the religion.
Infact most Muslim women before the 20th century, worked, were as educated as their men, wore pants and didnt even own a veil, headscarf or burkha.

Men are not allowed to beat thier women, in recent events, the media basically transmitted the false propaghanda of some self-proclaimed mullah about how to beat your wife. it is nonsense. infact, the Koran says that a man must worship his wife as if his wife was Allah.

Polygamy is only allowed, if the first wife allows it. Ofcourse many modern day "muslims" dont follow this rule, but even polygamy is statistically rare in the Muslim world.

it is true that women are considered half of a man in the Koran, but that deals with issues such as inheritence. But if you think about, European patriarchal societies only allowed endogamy to male heirs. Endogamy was banished in europe as late as the 19th century in some areas.

11) i can go on and on and on, i dont know if this made any impression on anybody, but i am tired and have far more pointless things to do.

rant over, and good nite

[cut]

I havn't seen a single far-right, european on this board, not that I'm saying there aren't any but none of the europeans have posted far-right or far-left comments the only person to say anything that resmebled the BNP/Front Nationale was Sixgun Syphony, which is ironic as he denouces all europeans as lefties.

[serbian boy]

And how is islam not an extremist religion? Now I didn't mean to say all muslims are extremists, I myself know some muslim people bu the religion is (no alchohol,wearing bed sheets, no ****) no nothing! I don't know how I would be able to live like that!
Sorry but it just seems extremist to me. :|

[SeanAshi]

no alchohol,wearing bed sheets, no ****
muslims watch alot of ****, I use to work at a video store and many many muslims rented lots and lots of **** :D

[cut]

And how is islam not an extremist religion? Now I didn't mean to say all muslims are extremists, I myself know some muslim people bu the religion is (no alchohol,wearing bed sheets, no ****) no nothing! I don't know how I would be able to live like that!
Sorry but it just seems extremist to me. :|

yes but like in every religion, the are there are strict followers and less strict followers, I mean france is 90% Roman catholic, do you honestly think that 90% of the french population never use a condom? I wonder what the percentage of american christians actually marry virgins. There are plenty of muslims at my university the only one I've seen wearing even a headscarf is one that dons the whole darth vader outfit. I've got drunk with muslim friends before, and looked at the **** of my muslim friends older brother when I was growing up.

Few people live like that. So you can't call it extreme because it is different than yours. Many religions are shocked at western (judeo-christian, whatever you want to call it) tolerence to decadence, but are religions were not always like that, and in poorer countries religion is always taken a lot more seriously, be it islam or christianity

[SeanAshi]

american christians actually marry virgins.
rofl Yes we have that problem here, If I ever have a daughter Ill get her a chassity belt.

[Durandal]

7) The United States is an excellant example of how to counter such things. Throughout its existence the United States of America is the one nation where any ethnic group will learn to co-exist with others, even some who would be mortal enemies in the Old World. Why? Because what it is to be American does not have anything to do with your culture, ethnic group or language. America through its egaliteraian and liberal foundations has been able to assimilate foreingers into its social fabric, perhaps not in one generation but certainly within three generations. (I do not know how long this will last, because of high volumes of immigrants passing into the nation)

The irony of this statement after claiming you think X, Y, and Z should be banned is amazing...


I think extremist religions such as Jehovas Witness, Islam, the knife carrying thinga-majiggie should be banned from schools and workplaces.
Only christianity should be allowed.

Jehovas are not extremists and they ARE Christians...

Oh course claiming that ONLY Christianity should be allowed is just as extremist as the Taliban...have fun ya nut job!

[aFgHaNibOi]

Before I get down to "Obd"'s post regarding the head scarf, I have to mention this:

France didn't just ban the Muslim headscarf [hijab], they banned ALL religious gear. As in, Jews can't wear their head scarves, Muslim women can't wear their hijab, Indian Sikhs can't wear their turbans, etc. This is not a law that only affects Muslims, it is a pointless law that affects a wide range of people and their beliefs. Although it is not compulsary in the Jewish religion [not 100% sure] for Jewish men/boys to wear their skull caps, it is however absolutely compulsary for Muslim women to wear the hijab, and likewise the Sikh men [and some religious Sikh women as well].

I feel that France, being one of the leaders of the world, could spend their time on better things that could benefit their country truly, instead of making some silly laws banning religious items etc. This is a step down, and it only slows down progress. I have yet to see the benefits of this law... :|

[StarvingStudent47]

I think extremist religions such as Jehovas Witness, Islam, the knife carrying thinga-majiggie should be banned from schools and workplaces.
Only christianity should be allowed.
...
And how is islam not an extremist religion? Now I didn't mean to say all muslims are extremists, I myself know some muslim people bu the religion is (no alchohol,wearing bed sheets, no ****) no nothing! I don't know how I would be able to live like that!
Sorry but it just seems extremist to me. :|

Many sects of Christianity ban ****, and a few ban alcohol. (Methodists? I forget which). Catholicism bans pre-marital *** and the use of condoms. Should we ban those "extremist" religions too?

By the way, are you also calling for the banning of Buddhism and Judaism? Just curious. You did say "only Christianity," right?

[Durandal]

Catholicism bans pre-marital ***...

Ummm...you obviously never hung out with any Catholic girls when you were in high school. :D

[martinexsquaddie]

I think the french are right come to our country abide by our way of life don't like go to saudi see how far you get wearing a cross in saudi?
Got to hand it to the french there attitude this is france this is what we are going to do

[Durandal]

I think the french are right come to our country abide by our way of life don't like go to saudi see how far you get wearing a cross in saudi?
Got to hand it to the french there attitude this is france this is what we are going to do

Read your comments with a very few minor changes...


Got to hand it to the Taliban there attitude this is Afghanistan this is what we are going to do

You agree with that too then right? Because they have the "balls" to do it?

Think about it...

[martinexsquaddie]

good point well made
but the french are not planing on killing anybody and they have'nt singled out headscraves all religious articles must go. from state schools go somewhere else do what you like

[hank]

There is a large and growing muslim population in France. In about five more decades, France will come under Shaaria laws.

Basis for this claim? Just curious, I thought I heard Pat Buchanan in the background.

Seriously, do you really think that Sharia will be in place in a western country? Preposterous. French do have a constiotution and a representative deomcracy las time I ckecked. If Sharia did get implemented it would be the will of the people and so be it. never happen though.

I'd like to hear stephane chime in on this one. Are any French muslims asking for sharia as the law in France?

hank

[WARPIG]

By that premise, the US should have been a Muslim community since, the 60's or 70's. Of course, I doubt that Islam is a religion with it's arms open for all to convert.

[One?]

so when nuns cover their heads they are being DEGRADED?

[hank]

One - of course they are. ;) Get with propaganda, uhh, I mean program.

hank

[EYE SPY]

durandal, that second quote is not mine, and it is a complete distortion to present it as such.

Historically, The Ku Klux Klan in america targeted blacks, femenists and immigrants. One of the largest immigrant groups they victimized where italians and more largely Irish. Why, because they were Catholic while the Klan is made up of protestants. Protestants were the ones pushing for Alcohol Prohibition under the guise of Progressivism. Temperence of all things, especially Alcohol is a common viewpoint in Protestant religions. Just look at Quakers today, and the Puritans who got the ball rolling in the 1640's. what it means to be an "American" and "American" values stem from these puritan values. Freedom to own your own property, the whole concept of a "calling", such as what you were destined to do for a living. freedom to practice your religion, although until Cromwell was overthrown the Puritans were having a fun time persecuting the non-Puritans throughtout England. etc etc etc. Catholics were viewed as uncivilized, because they enjoyed excess alcohol, they put the Pope over the president etc .

The KKK thusly, was heavily involved in initimidation of the Catholics specifically the Irish. It is disinformation(blatant Lie) or pure ignorance to say that Islam, unperverted by its "believers" is more extreme than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc.

There are certainly a few members on this board with Neo-Facist views. Chiefly, Mustamato has insulted me and made clear his views towards Turks and Albanians. Serbain boy, can be quoted within this thread about views that are clearly xenophobic. Part of the reason for the ethnic flareup in Yugoslavia was the competiton for limited jobs, now that Tito was gone and a bunch of mentally catrated beaurocrats were running teh country.
[/i]

[hank]

"put the Pope over the president etc . "

Dude, I am catholic and that is crap. Maybe a long time ago you are right. I am woefully ignorant in the history of Catholic ideology. But, just for the record we do not put the pope above the President. The two are unrelated. We do put religion before country, yes. But Catholic church teaches that civic duty and political reaponsbility are part of a Christian's obligations, so the distinction is largely moot. A died in the wool Catholic will disagree with the govt on many issues, namely abortion, but that does not in the Cathoilc church's view mean that we follow the Pope and not the President.

Lots of people in the Klan after the war did not actively prticipate in violenve against any minority. In the south especially membership was seen as the only available act of resistence to the reconstruction and Yankee dominance. That being said there was a lot of violence aginst all minorities and I do not defend the Klan - now or then. Its just that a lot of Southerners viewed it as synonomous with a political party.

hank

[EYE SPY]

i agree its crap, but it is true. hell one of the major political episodes in the U.S.A was the election of John F Kennedy. The ONLY Catholic elected to as POTUS. If you remember, maybe if your old enough or even read some reputable literature of the time frame. JFK's catholicism was a very sore point for the WASP class that generally had a lock on Federal Governance. There was a big debate if a Catholic would put the Constitution of The United States, over natural Roman Catholic support for the Pope. I agree this is crap and sounds ludicrous, but infact it was very very big thing in the United States for a long time.

And durandal, if i was being ironic it wasnt intentionally so, and even if it is ironic, irony itself doesnt assume falsehood. Alot of things that are real in life are ironic if you try to look at it from a philosophic point of view.

[hank]

I see, you are talking about perception about Catholics, not our ideology. In that case, I agree. When I converted, my 90+ year old great grandmother had a cow for just that reason.

Just to be clear though, that is perception and not reality.

hank

[EYE SPY]

I dont know if Nuns are being degraded, they probably do not, but you and i are not nuns, so how would we know.

there is nothing wrong with religion, by all means practice whatever you want, wear what you want. But do it within the confines of your home.

the issue is not to stop religious activity, but to make sure religious activity doesnt interfere with the normal, routine of the State.

[hank]

Dude, I'm just being sarcastic about the nun thing. I do know a couple of nuns though. I'll ask them and post a response. They are both real internet savvy, maybe I'll get them to join the forum so we can all stay abreast about the current nun prespective. ;)

hank

[aFgHaNibOi]

And how is islam not an extremist religion? Now I didn't mean to say all muslims are extremists, I myself know some muslim people bu the religion is (no alchohol,wearing bed sheets, no ****) no nothing! I don't know how I would be able to live like that!
Sorry but it just seems extremist to me. :|

If those things makes us 'extreme,' then we are proud of being extreme. You don't know the religion bro, first go get a little educated then try to make a point. :)

[aFgHaNibOi]

so when nuns cover their heads they are being DEGRADED?

What a beautiful comparison. ;)

[stephane from Paris]

Most of the muslims are against the headscarf and specialy the muslims girls! They are 5 millions in France and their anti law demostrations show just a few thousands of persons!
Anti racist associations, socialists, right party are in favor of this law!
The ONLY party who is against is the FRONT NATIONAL a neo facist party!
We don't want here the situation found in USA , Lebanon, India...where every community lives in his own part!!
In France 50% of imigrants children are married with a french!
In UK or Germany it's 5%.
Two important communities on one land is a future war.
Today in 3 hours there is a TV report on France 2 a state chanel! The show is wellknown to be close to socialists. You can't says that's facist!
For who have this chanel on satelite (specially canadians) HAVE A LOOK!

The report is on a town of the suburn of Paris (where i go works sometimes)! You'll see the result of our laxism! Islamists integrist changed this town in a new Kaboul!
Have a look and you'll understand the situation! If not don't cry for future 09/11 that this situation will give!

For Turkey situation don't forget that thousands of people are in prison because they are islamists activists or kurds or communists, so don't give us a lesson!

[ariweiner]

Interesting discussion...though the xenophobes seem to have come out in large numbers.

My take on it: This is one of the stupidest moves that a "democracy" has ever made. Islamic fundamentalists are praising this move! Why? Because no longer will Muslim girls be 'corrupted' by French secularism in French public schools. Instead, there are now movements in France to set up large numbers of Islamic private schools to teach girls. Instead of having more integration, there will be more and more of a divide between the two societies. Stupid stupid move by stupid stupid French.

[fantassin]

though the xenophobes seem to have come out in large numbers.




stupid stupid French


That's what I call coherence; criticize the xenophobes and follow up with a racist comment.

Anyway, good to see there are so many specialists of everything French on this board.

[ariweiner]

"follow up with a racist comment."

How the heck is calling a stupid person stupid being racist? The French are undoubtedly stupid for making this move since they cannot see the obvious repercussions. Secondly, a nation that prides itself on it's freedoms has no call to be restricting those very freedoms.

[StarvingStudent47]

Most of the muslims are against the headscarf and specialy the muslims girls!

I've met a decent number of Muslims in my life, and the vast majority supported headscarves for women. And no, most of them were NOT extremists.

Who is Jacques Chirac to tell peaceful Muslims what their religion requires. They aren't asking to kill infidels here; they're asking to cover their hair. Is that so much to ask?

[fantassin]

You must have a lot of time to lose to spend hours arguing on something that is not even remotely touching you.

This law is supported by the people who live in the country that has passed it. Tough **** if you don't like it because that's not going to change anything.

[Sixgun Symphony]

You must have a lot of time to lose to spend hours arguing on something that is not even remotely touching you.

This law is supported by the people who live in the country that has passed it. Tough **** if you don't like it because that's not going to change anything.

You are so clueless about the time bomb that you are sitting on.

Your leaders could have learned alot from Homer's tale about the Trojan Horse in regards to islamic immigration.

[fantassin]

You are so clueless about the time bomb that you are sitting on.

Yes, must be, only have lived there for 33 years; I don't have the insight that living in Seattle provides on internal French affairs.

With those standards, I suppose the Australians are even better informed since they live even further away.

[Roger Rabbit]

Don't be silly. Obviously its the Scientists who live in Antartica :P

Sixgun, where do you get your infomation which leads you to believe France is sitting on a time bomb? Have you just made your own assumptions? If so what lead you to make them? If not then why do you believe what you believe?

[EYE SPY]

is it just me or is there an overwhelming majority of adolescents and intellectually stunted individuals on this board? the responses to my post here and on the other thread that i started are some of the most ignorant and childish.

Stephane from paris, the reason these agigtators are in Turkish prisons is because Nations like France and Germany allow organizations like Kaalafistaat, the PKK , ASALA and other terrorist groups to raise funds, indoctrinate individuals that come to Turkey to blow up Synagogues, Embassies and Banks. Murder Elementary school teachers, burn down schools.

Your whole tone belies your true views about Turks and Turkey. What Turkey situation are you talking about. Thats the same type of remarks that Racists like Mustamato offer about Turks and other non-western or scandanavian Europeans.


The bull**** that is often repeated here is astounding. Repeating the disinformation about how in 30 years France will be a Sharia state is nonsense. That will never happen, because if it came down to it is easy to find a Neo-Facsist leader Like Le Pen who will advocate expulsion, imprisonment and perhaps state sanctioned murder. The true threat of these alien populations is not that the extremists within the bunch will turn France into a Caliphate. But they will use the education, finances and irresponsible political freedom they have to organize to destabilize States within the middle east and africa that are trying to modernize and secularize. The real threat these people pose is to destroy the future and well being of their ancestor's homeland.

[Kaos]

Who is Jacques Chirac to tell peaceful Muslims what their religion requires.
He's just the French président.
Elected by French people.

[Durandal]

good point well made
but the french are not planing on killing anybody and they have'nt singled out headscraves all religious articles must go. from state schools go somewhere else do what you like

True, nor was I claiming that they were. However, what happens when an individual stands up for their personal liberty and decides the State has no business controling their faith? Peaceful protest, let's say, they refuse to take off the "offending" article...

Sending them to jail is something the Taliban would have done...and did. Forcing someone to worship a State sponsored religion is just as bad as the State forcing a non-secualr society upon them.

And a side note: If you think France had problems with Muslim communities...just wait. The riots will get worse and probably more wide spread, probably comitting some middle of the roaders to the more extreme side. Which is what normally happens in situation like this...

[Durandal]

durandal, that second quote is not mine, and it is a complete distortion to present it as such.

I am really sorry about that post EYE SPY. serbian boy was the person I meant to quote. I cut and pasted the quote box to save time, forgetting to change the name...again sorry. I disagreed with some of your comments, but they were detailed and thoughtful...

Which cannot be said about the majority of the other posts.

You comments in regards to the KKK, though, I see happening to the Muslims in France. I have heard from many folks (including stephaniefromparis) that making the laws is justified to preserve "French" culture...which has ominous undertones...

Cheers man!

[StarvingStudent47]

Who is Jacques Chirac to tell peaceful Muslims what their religion requires.
He's just the French président.
Elected by French people.

And if George Bush were to interpret kosher food rules for me, I would tell him to go f--- himself. Chirac is the President, not the freakin' Pope. It's not his job to interpret religious doctrine.

[cut]

The ponit is they can do whatever they want at home if you were french, kosher food rules fall in that catagory

[Durandal]

I dont know if Nuns are being degraded, they probably do not, but you and i are not nuns, so how would we know.

there is nothing wrong with religion, by all means practice whatever you want, wear what you want. But do it within the confines of your home.

the issue is not to stop religious activity, but to make sure religious activity doesnt interfere with the normal, routine of the State.

And this is where we disagree. Faith is with a person at all times fo the day and I find it offensive that ANYONE thinks they have a right to someone to keep it behind close doors.

Its ok to be gay, just do it behind closed doors.

Its ok to makeout, just don't do it public.

Its ok, to be against the government, you just can't do so in public forum.

What the F%CK!?

Where does it stop? Big things start out small. I hop ethat I am making a mountain out of a mole hill, but history proves that to not be the case.

Why would ANYONE want a government that would do that?

[Roger Rabbit]

As i understand it then its only in schools not in public. Schools should be secular, they should teach you infomation not opinions.

[Durandal]

For Turkey situation don't forget that thousands of people are in prison because they are islamists activists or kurds or communists, so don't give us a lesson!

Well there is rational argument. Turkey is worse so don't crap on us? Come on now.

You know what? Turkey sucks too. There, now I included them as well. ;)

[duck]

I find the situation in two African countries, Nigeria and Sudan, very interesting. In both countries the Sharia has been proclaimed in the Muslim-majority areas and there is a more or less open civil war being waged between Muslims and non-Muslims.

[StarvingStudent47]

The ponit is they can do whatever they want at home if you were french, kosher food rules fall in that catagory

So you wouldn't have problems with a law that FORCED Jewish students to eat pork at school, because they could follow kosher rules when they were at home?

Damn am I proud to be an American, where the government is not allowed to establish a state religion, but is also not permitted to interfere with people's practice of religion...

[Durandal]

As i understand it then its only in schools not in public. Schools should be secular, they should teach you infomation not opinions.

No one is saying State schools should teach religion. I am saying that if a teacher decides to wear a Kippot, because of his Jewish faith, he should be allowed to. An article of clothing be it an actual religious icon or not is not propoganda undermining the non-secualr beliefs of French children. If started preaching to all the kids their religion was bad and his was the only true faith...or simply pushing hsi religion on them, then yes, there is a problem.

The French government has, for all intents and purposes, told its citizens that their religion has no place except at home, period. It simply does not work that way.

Let's put it into different terms...

You can be black, but only at home. While you are working at your government, you have to be Norman-Anglo.

*snort*


Come on...

[Durandal]

Damn am I proud to be an American, where the government is not allowed to establish a state religion, but is also not permitted to interfere with people's practice of religion...

Liberty man...

Feel it!

:D

[hank]

I know you guys get tired of me, but France is set up different than we are. I don't know if Chirac can even do what we accuse him of. Does anybody know about the French law? Stephane?

SS47 and Durandel - come on - don't fight. This law would not work here - but France is not the US and their landscape is different.

Besides, if sixgun says Sharia is coming I am sure he knows what he is talking about, so maybe the French are doing the right thing. ;)

hank

[StarvingStudent47]

SS47 and Durandel - come on - don't fight. This law would not work here - but France is not the US and their landscape is different.

That's what some people said about the Tsar when he was s---ing on my ancestors 100 years ago. That's what people said five years ago about women living under the Taliban. That's what some people said about the Jim Crow South and Apartheid South Africa. I don't buy it.

[Sixgun Symphony]

And a side note: If you think France had problems with Muslim communities...just wait. The riots will get worse and probably more wide spread, probably comitting some middle of the roaders to the more extreme side. Which is what normally happens in situation like this...

That is what I am saying. The liberals are blind to what is right in front of them.

They let in millions of muslims and are literally sitting on a time bomb.

BTW, The europeans have a low birthrate. Factor in the massive waves of Islamic immigration, their fecundity, and it is quite apparant that Western Civilization will vanish in much of Europe.

LePen? the liberal French made their choice last election. They voted for the status quo which will inevitably lead to a muslim majority. In about fifty years or so, the vanishing minority of Europeans will be living under shaaria.

[hank]

S47 - don't lump me in about apartheid. I don't condone that but what would you have us do? There is no good answer from over here.

Again with the sharia sixgun? I ask again - what is your basis for this claim? Even if 50% of france were muslim that is still no guarantee that they could enact sharia. come on.

hank

[StarvingStudent47]

S47 - don't lump me in about apartheid. I don't condone that but what would you have us do? There is no good answer from over here.

I didn't mean to say that you're an apartheid supporter. I merely meant that I don't think it's good to turn away and say "that's how they live over there" when we see oppression in the world.

What can we do? Bitch about it and bitch about it. France is a democracy, so maybe public opinion could slowly turn against such a poor policy decision. Obviously Europeans couldn't have done anything to abolish Jim Crow laws in the 1950s, but that doesn't mean they didn't have a right to raise hell about it anyway, you know?

[hank]

I hear you, but news flash France ain't real interested in our opinion. You are right though, it still don't make it right.

hank

[raid]

And this is where we disagree. Faith is with a person at all times fo the day and I find it offensive that ANYONE thinks they have a right to someone to keep it behind close doors.

Its ok to be gay, just do it behind closed doors.

Its ok to makeout, just don't do it public.

Its ok, to be against the government, you just can't do so in public forum.

What the F%CK!?

Where does it stop? Big things start out small. I hop ethat I am making a mountain out of a mole hill, but history proves that to not be the case.

Why would ANYONE want a government that would do that?

Is it ok to have gay or straight *** in class room?
Is it ok to make out during lessons?
Is is ok to demonstrate against the government during school?

What you can't grasp here is that we are only talking about S.C.H.O.O.L.S.! Everything should be equal there. Childrens are there to learn, to listen to the teacher, to ask questions, to learn how to build up sociable relationships between each other, and basically to get an equal treatment. Damn, if I were to chose, I'd also vote for uniforms at school, to rule out the brands dictatorship, the rich vs poor kids. In my views, at kids age, strong religious signs sets children aside. It just shows that if you don't have the same signs, you're not part of the band, and there's no way you can be a part of it. You can do things with us, but there will always be a gap. And same goes the other way around.
Why does not the law applies to universities? because we're not talking about kids here, but grown ups, who have learnt to build social relationships, who are entitled to there longly built opinions and can respects other's opinion and differences. Most kids can't do that.

About that long post from Eye Spy, I agree with a lot of what you said. However, if I may correct you, there's never been such thing in france as teaching the kids in the native language. There's been a lot, and I mean, A LOT of things to help foreigners to blend in. Obviously, this hasn't been very successful yet. Why is that? I'd say the major mistake was the huge housing projects that were built to house the new immigrants in the 60's and 70's. People from the same origins were just put there together, with almost no native french to relate to, so naturally they recreated what the had known for their whole life.
So what about today? I don't know if things are getting better or worse. All I can tell is that communautarism is very strong. I can't help but being shocked at seing how many 2nd or third gen. immigrants, born in france, raised in france, are still defining themselves as algerians or morocans etc... with little if no respect for french culture. A very common insult that's always being heard is "nique la france" (**** france). I've been tolerant for a long time, but I got to say I'm really fed up with that kind of behavior. I think there's an old saying in the US that says America, love it or leave it. I guess that should apply to france too...

[duck]

As far as I've got the right picture, in the Muslim ghettos, it's not okay and potentially life-threatening to be
gay
a Muslim woman dating a non-Muslim
a single Muslim woman sleeping with any man
a Muslim renouncing his/her faith
a Muslim converting to another religion
a French police officer
a French Muslim police officer ("traitor")
of Jewish faith

and then some more.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Again with the sharia sixgun? I ask again - what is your basis for this claim? Even if 50% of france were muslim that is still no guarantee that they could enact sharia. come on.

hank

The Europeans have a low birthrate, they are declining. The tens of millions of muslim settlers there have a high birthrate and millions more continue to flow in.

When the muslims become the majority there, then they will make the rules.

It will will not even be called France after that.

[Haiw]

In about fifty years or so, the vanishing minority of Europeans will be living under shaaria.
First it was 500, then it was 100, now it's already 50 years... In two days you'll be telling me we're living under Shaaria law.


The Europeans have a low birthrate, they are declining. The tens of millions of muslim settlers there have a high birthrate and millions more continue to flow in.

When the muslims become the majority there, then they will make the rules.

It will will not even be called France after that.
Someone once said "There's lies, big lies, and statistics". Anyway, yes right now we have a lower birthrate.
However, have you thought aobut the fact that maybe theirs will drop as well. That maybe the second and third generations aren't really as strictly Muslim as the first generations anymore?
Have you thought about the fact that the 'millions' flowing in don't come here to spread the Muslim word but maybe just because they like it here or come here to seek there fortune, and especially wouldn't even like to see the Shariaa themselves? Have you even thought at all?

[Durandal]

SS47 and Durandel - come on - don't fight. This law would not work here - but France is not the US and their landscape is different.

Wrong.

Completely wrong.

The concepts of Liberty will work anywhere.

[duck]

Haiw, ever heard of the Imam of Rotterdam?

http://www.mw.nl/hotspots/html/ned021105.html

"A Muslim spiritual leader accused of hate speech against homo******s appears to be off the hook. Dutch public prosecutors pursuing the case against the Moroccan-born cleric Khalil El-Moumni have asked that he be acquitted. Imam El-Moumni called homo******ity an infectious disease that was destroying Dutch society.

A year ago, Dutch Justice authorities launched an inquiry into allegedly discriminatory remarks made by the Rotterdam cleric in a live interview on television. The broadcast focused on the growing problem of hostility and violence towards homo******s among Moroccan youths. In it, Imam El-Moumni likened homo******ity with an infectious disease that would "ultimately threaten the Dutch nation with extinction".

The remarks sparked a public outcry. They were not only seen as discriminatory, but also as highly inflammatory in an already delicate situation. However in April, a Rotterdam court acquitted Mr El-Moumi, dismissing charges that he had deliberately incited hatred and discrimination against the gay community.

Hague appeals court

The public prosecutors then lodged an appeal, but dropped their initial demand for a 1200-euro fine. Now, at the start of the appeals case, the prosecution says it has come to the conclusion that Mr El-Moumni has committed no punishable offence and has therefore asked that he be acquitted. However, the case will not be dropped. Given the fundamental nature of the case, involving the basic constitutional freedoms of speech and religion, the prosecutors are seeking a ruling from the Rotterdam high court that can serve as legal preceden

The move has sparked anger and confusion from the Dutch gay community. Henk Krol, the editor of the Gaykrant magazine, says he's bewildered.

"I think no-one could understand it. Why should you go into appeal and then when you have a case say: right, that's it, thank you, we no longer want anything from Mr El-Moumni. Nobody understands this. It's a waste of money, it's a waste of time, it's a waste of energy and there is a lot to be done. The state prosecutor was going to court because we have two rules in the Netherlands that are in opposition to each other: you have the freedom of religion and the principle of non-discrimination. So, we want to have an answer to the crucial question of what is the most important right in the Netherlands?

Fred Leemhuis is an expert in Islamic fundamentalism at the University of Groningen. He says the prosecutor couldn't have won the case against Imam El-Moumni because jurisprudence was against him.

"It's happened before when a Dutch MP made a statement about homo******s that could also be regarded as discriminatory, but was nevertheless acquitted because of the argument of religious freedom. And this would most probably have prevailed in this case, too. So, the prosecutor simply didn't have any other choice."

This suggests that in the Dutch legal framework, religious freedom weighs more heavily than freedom of speech. Professor Leemhuis says the rule has served a useful purpose in a country with quite a few religious denominations.

"It's served to keep the peace in the past, which makes people reluctant to go against it. In this case, the judges have concluded that this jurisprudence still stands. A new law would be needed to change this, but that is highly unlikely."

Striking a balance

Professor Leemhuis explains that the judges now have to strike a balance between conflicting constitutional principles: the freedoms of speech and religion on the one hand and a ban on discrimination on the other. He says the Muslim community would certainly welcome a ruling giving priority to religious freedom and acquitting Mr El-Moumni. It would give them a sense of equality with traditional Christian denominations, which could make them more assertive.

"It's likely to encourage the Moroccan community to say what they want to say about for instance Dutch homo******s that does not accord with widely held views within society. But that also goes for the Dutch Protestant or Catholic communities who hold the same views as the Muslims on this point."

[Haiw]

Yeah heard of that guy...when he made those statements he got practically the entire country over him.
They wanted to sue the guy for discrimination, however they couldn't because he did his statements based on the Koran and other 'holy writings' which made it a case of freedom of religion. Needless to say not too many people where happy about that.

Anyway, things like this aren't exactely 'daily' and are always reason for a huge outcry from all directions.

[duck]

Pim Fortuyn's anti-immigration party got 36% of the votes for the Rotterdam city council less than two years ago, correct? I don't know how they are doing after Fortuyn was shot, but why the high vote?

[Haiw]

I don't exactely know why he got so much votes... Might have something to do with the wind of anti-Islam tensions after 9/11 or maybe with being fed up with the previous council.

[EYE SPY]

1) Durandal, your argument is good, and im inclined to agree with your points, that is how the world should be, But if we are a little less Idealistic and actually look at the historical record for such things we see that invariably, doing certain things, religious or not that cause divisions in society often yeild to terrible results. Progroms, genocide, apartheid, racism. Remember that famous saying, A house divided cannot stand.

I will use the example i made in one of my earlier posts.
Back in the early 1800's in the early stages of the French Revolution Napoleon came into power. In this period, not only were concepts such as monarchy, republicanism, aristocracy and serfdom argued. But what it means to be French. Before the revolution, if you were in modern day France, you were either the King of France ( note, not French King, but King of France... throughout monarchys you have foreigners assume the title of king of other nations)
Or you were say the Duke of Aquitane, or the Baron of Lorraine, or you were a Norman peasant. there was no such thing as French.

the philosophes of the time debated what it means to be french, common religion? common language? common dietary habits? skin tone? etc etc. one of the main issues was the status of Jews. At the time , there were very few Jews within modern day borders. At most was a few thousand in Paris and Bourdeux. Many considered the fact that Jews, spoke a different language, ate different food, wore differen clothes, celbrated thier own holidays and disregarded christian holidays. as tantamount to being un-french and to never be considered french. In essence the whole concept of nationalism was birthed.

Napoleon, as we know was a very pragmatic man, a man of the Enlightenment, and a man who seeked order in life. He did not believe in religion, but understood that religion was a necessary evil. Religion allows many people without the means to better themselves, hope. and keeps them in line with the status quo. Napoleon also understands the history of pogroms against Jews in European history, especially after Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation. (In modern times most mainstream academics view Luther as a hero for splitting from the Roman Catholics, but do not take into account his vicious persecution of Jews, Infact Luther actually espounded the tactics to remove the Jews that Hitler would in a few centuries actually carry out.)

Basically, Napoleon said to the Jews, if you value your life and wish for your religion to exist, assimilate into French culture. When in public abandon what makes you different and blend into the society. Dress french, speak french, take french names, follow french holidays (secular and religion), but do what you wish in your home, nobody can tell you what to do in your home. Jews being the pragmatic people that they historically are, understood and pretty succesfully assimilated and many were protected by their christian french neighbors when it came to Hitler's occupation.



Raid,
When i mention language i was giving an example, infact the new laws proposed by the government might be counterproductive in that many muslims, jews and christians will decide to send thier children to religious schools where what makes them different will be much more apparent to what makes them the same as their peers-of-other-faiths.

You thought of an even better example, the tenement houses and ghettos. in the united states many blacks, hispanics and other immigrants typically live in some of the harshest places in cities. they exist in a vacuum from the rest of society. They eventually feel they do not have a stake in the society, and thus have no compunction to abide by its laws and better the world around them. they wallow in their disadvantages and allow themselves to further erode thier standing in society. they develop drug habits, criminal records and dependence on public assistance. they view public assitance as a hand out, instead of a hand up. This is why non-whites are responsible for crimes disproportionate to their actually demographics in society.

It is not all bad though, places like California have made attempts to bridge this gap. Historically mexicans have made up the agricultural sector of american business. Mexicans have also had a history of crime and other social ills. A major impetiment to their upward mobility was their lack of education and language skills. this is largely in due to many young mexican children suffering through year after year of bilingual education, which does produce a diploma but doesnt give them skills they can market to employers. Many proponets of bilingual education claim that if American schools forced kids to learn in english only it would be tantamount to imperialism by way of language, ironically the language that they claim as theirs is actually the Imperial language of Queen Isabellas spain,( remember 1492 columbus sailed the ocean blue)

Anyway, a few years ago, bilingual education was banned in California, schools no longer recieved funding or teachers for these institutions. What happend, many mexican students passed and graduated high school with high grades, but also with skills that allowed them to pursue college, become hired as managers, lawyers, engineers instead of burger flippers, criminal defendants, and farm hands.

Hell, look at the Generals in Iraq right now, Major General Ordoniez (sorry for spelling error) of the 4th Infantry Divison. or what about the overall commander of the Iraq theather Leutanant General Ricardo Sanchez. Listen to them speak, they have fluent English. the united states is not unique in this regard, people who speak English in America with funny accents are perceived as less intelligent. And people who have no command of the language are relegated as intellectually stunted. It is not true though, many people have brains full of thoughts but they cannot communicate them and thus are stuck and perhaps even fall from their positions.

Something to note about nationalism, The United States of America is the only country in the world, whose sense of nationalism is not based on ethnicity. Most nation-states were formed with nationalism based on ethnicity. France in 1789, Germany under Chancellor Bismark, Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria in the 1800- 1830s. Turkey in the 1900-1930s, Iran in the1940s-50s etc etc etc.

America is unique, being American does not have to do with ethnicity, language or even skin color. Thats not to say historically there werent forces that attempted to associate Americanness with ethnicity, language and skin tone. Even today there are many around with such views.
But to be American is to be liberal, is to believe in the rights of the individual, the right better your economic lot, the right to defend yourself from any self proclaimed King,Ceaser or Generalissmo. America at its core is a Liberal nation, ( Do not confuse liberal with Leftist, many many many here do, because they are uneducated or just indoctrinated). There is no supreme force in America besides its values, Its Declaration of Independence, Its constitution, its contribution to philosophy, politics and the world.

[serbian boy]

SAY **** NO TO SAME *** MARRIAGE!

[Tommy Gunn]

SAY f*** NO TO SAME *** MARRIAGE!

Ditto

[Durandal]

SAY f*** NO TO SAME *** MARRIAGE!

Serbianboy, you ever had someone deny you your human rights?

Obviously not.

[Tommy Gunn]

'Gay Marriage' is a contradiction of terms.

[Durandal]

Durandal, your argument is good, and im inclined to agree with your points, that is how the world should be...

If you are inclined, then do it. Christ man, nothing in the world happens with half measures. If you believe that way then do so...don't water it down with excuses. I am not trying to belittle your stance, but there are too many people in the world that say "Well that is what I believe, but the world works this way."

To many people just sit around and follow the mainsteam rather than doing what they think is right. If you disagree with me, cool, we disagree. If you agree, then do something about it rather than give excuses.

[Durandal]

'Gay Marriage' is a contradiction of terms.

Marriage:


a close and intimate union

How is that contradictory? Are you claiming that homo******s cannot engage in a close and/or intimate union?

Next you are going to tell me black people should not marry white people and that borthmarks are the sign of witchcraft...

Move to France...they like your kind there. ;)

[Tommy Gunn]

Marriage is a man and a woman coming together.

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

[serbian boy]

Durandal are you gaaayyyyyyyyyy? rofl
Dude there is an obviuos reason why god put Males and Females on earth, mkay! :lol:
To make other human beings,mkay :lol:
Gays can't give birth can they?, mkay

"Regrettably, the spirit of "tolerance" seems to have a strong grip upon the American psyche. It may take a family tragedy to awaken parents to the reality of what is happening to their sons. Will parents have to endure the trauma of discovering their son has been molested by a homo****** Scout leader or infected with AIDS before they realize that "tolerance" of homo******ity leads to death?"
--Rev. Louis P. Sheldon
You need some of this preaching Durandal,mkay ;) :lol: :lol:

[duck]

What to you do with your gays in gay old Serbia?

[serbian boy]

Well if your openly gay in Serbia you'd probably get a beating from skinheads :slap: (one thing there useful for)
Or just be an outkast, but sorry since 85% Serbia is Christian Orthodox you probably wont find may open gays. Also it's not a good idea to be kissing in public if your a fag because police like to deal out beatings :slap: rofl
So basicly you get what you deserve if your a fag in good ole' Serbia! :lol:

[aFgHaNibOi]

What to you do with your gays in gay old Serbia? rofl

[serbian boy]

afghaniboi is that funny to you or something? :|

[aFgHaNibOi]

afghaniboi is that funny to you or something? :|

Yeah man, no offense, but the way he said it was hilarious! rofl

Here you go Serbian Boy: :hug: <--a friendly hug man, not a homo one.

[SeanAshi]

I actually have a gay couple who live by me, they beat the crap out of some skinheads one day, it was awesome! They are clean looking nice people, although I don't agree with their lifestyle they are nice people, they don't go around hitting on people, so they are ok, I also have some mormon, church of satan, gay, canadian semi pro hockey players that live around my aprartments. Never a dull moment, I'm actually more scared of the skin heads then the satanist people.

[serbian boy]

I just say we pack all the fags and drag queens up and send them to good ole' serbia! rofl
Mother****ing gays! :lol:

[SeanAshi]

My idiot skinhead neighbors claim they are the true Israelites :cantbeli: they are truly morons,

[serbian boy]

Dude there SKINHEADS,mkay ;)

[serbian boy]

I think we should send gay' ole' duck to gay' ole' serbia! rofl rofl
Seriously I think his gay! rofl rofl

[duck]

So did I get that right? Someone here is eager to get hordes of gays and drag queens to his country because he wants to f*** with them, whatever that might mean.

[fantassin]

For the XXXXth time, it's a French law for French people; tough ******* if some don't like it.

[Sixgun Symphony]

My idiot skinhead neighbors claim they are the true Israelites :cantbeli: they are truly morons,

They claim to be 'True Israelites"? That would be Christian Identity. They're crazy and they don't comprehend the Bible.

I am redneck myself, but those guys are way out there.

[SeanAshi]

Durandal that monkey avatar is he drinking vodka?

[Sixgun Symphony]

For the XXXXth time, it's a French law for French people; tough ******* if some don't like it.

French law is going to be Shaaria. If you are under 20yo, you might be around to see it happen.

[SeanAshi]

I am redneck myself, but those guys are way out there.
I set out on my balcony and watch the Satan worshippers and skinheads yell at each other its better then def comedy jam I don't understand them skinkheads, you can't reason with them, I try and tell them they are wrong but they say i'm a slave to the zionist and tell me I lie, but people like that we should just take them to the vet and put them to sleep :D

[serbian boy]

Duck, i am sorry you come from Fagville but if you didn't get it ****head it was a joke pn your behalf!,mkay :backhand:

[serbian boy]

Sorry Duck let me correct my self, thats Stupidville, Fagnation! mkay! :lol:

[duck]

The Gay is strong with you, son.

[SeanAshi]

Serbianboy do the muslims still cause problems in serbia or other parts, kosovo croatia?

[serbian boy]

Not really, I don't know why but probably because new pro-US governemnt gives them practically whatever they want. But if they ever get out of line we can always call up the Tigers or White Eagles! :lol:

[cut]

Told! you'll have find some otherway to stir up hatred of muslims Sean.

[SeanAshi]

Told! you'll have find some otherway to stir up hatred of muslims Sean.
I'm not stiring nothing I was asking Serbianboy a "q". Check many threads back, I was defending NATOs actions against Serbai for their ethic cleansing in Kosovo etc. etc.

[cut]

Sixgun and tommy gunn are getting to me, apologies

[serbian boy]

Can you guys beleive duck? rofl
Quack! Quack! dude what does 'the gay is strong with you son" mean
I'll tell you what it means, it means youre gay alright! It's done! We've all moved on with our lives on this forum! If your going to try to explain how gay you are go somewhere else, mkay? rofl
Were talking about something more important now!
But it's okay if you ever want to go straight were here for you bud! :petting:
Quack! Quack! rofl rofl

[duck]

Wait. Gays...skinheads...drag queens...send them all to Serbia...QuackQuack. Anything else? BTW, do you need the phone number of a white supremacist group near you?

[obd]

Hey Royal, I got news for you buddy: This is the SECOND time you have agreed with me!!! Sooner or later your really gonna have to stop using the "for ounce" prefix in your reponses. I know its hard but.....you can get over it with counceling. (waite maybe I'm wonrg. Maybe it was Argly who said that. Oh well, either way, thats two in my book b/c you two are but buddies anyway hehe) Anyway, I realize that Christianity, as you said, has historically caused much more sufferring which is one of a great many reasons why Im not a Christian/Catholic/Muslum/Mormom/Puritan/Anglican etc etc etc. I pretty much despise all religions as a societal construct whose very fundemental preseps are utter crap!!!. Example would be the entire concept of "faith" or blind belief. In my opinion, that whole mindset is dangerous. If you can blindly believe one thing someone tells you about which God or religion is superior and "right", (and lets face it unless you had direct contact from God in which case your a nutbag), then you can pretty much be willing to believe ANYTHING someone tells you without evidence to back it up.....Im also fully aware of the hellhole human's lived in when devision of Chirch and State was not in place and religous nutcases ruled or had too much influence........talk about hell. I give you hell on earth =The chruch with direct political power again....... which brings up another thinf I dislike anbout Islamic society: The prominance of religion in law and government and how it penetrates to the lowest levels of society which is the individuals home.......

Next, the stuff I said about Islam's founding being violent is NOT wrong. Tell me Royal, if the Prophet did not imediately wage war upon the second holy city from which he fled in the hijra, than what did he do exactly??? He expanded through war and took advantage of the week state of the Ottomans etc etc... Yes, a great many people converted because as you said earlier "its always good to side with master" and why do you say that Royal? I guess you say that because if they didnt side with the new masters they would be beaten and killed or at the very least downgraded...Hence the whole violence aspect.

Now you gave me examples of supposedly peaceful conversion and now I will give you some counter examples: Muslum war against Christian and animists in Sudan, Muslum pressure on moderate Muslums in France using beatings, house burnings, threatening graphitti, etc to make Muslum women in France cover up, Libyan killings of Christians during war with Chad, Saudi killings of very few Christians living there, Egyptian killings of Jews in Egypt, Iranian killings of Christians and Jews in Iran, the killings of Christians in Iraq, the killings and oppression of moderate Muslums in A-stan, Pakistan, Kashmir, India, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Palestinean territory, Syria, Jordan, Lebenon (where many Chrisitans were killed), etc etc etc

Strange thing how in America and Europe and most western nations we have all sects of Islam, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, athiests, agnostics, Buddhists, hindu, Janist, Christians, animists,Bahai, wikka (spelling??, its wichcraft for those who dont know) and all manner or wierd and wonderful religions and they arnt being killed by the dozens every day......

One thing it makes VERY clear in the Koran is that anyone who converts to Islam and then converts to someting else is to be killed imdeiately. There is no debate on that subject from anyone!!

Next thing that is not debated in Islam is that polythiests should be wiped out. This is stated VERY clearly. I cant be bothered at moment to find it but I read it during a paper I was writing which oppossed negative and false translations of hadith and Koranic passages put forth by bap****t trying to undermine Islam (kinda ironic isnt it?? hehe). These translations try to say that Islam says right to have slaves, beat wives, have *** with any women you want, kill all others etc which actually is not true!!!

Now, Im no Christian so dont bother saying things like "well Christians have killed many too under banner of God" because I know this already and thier are also many things in the Christian faith I am oppossed to. I support alot of the Europeans on this post who think religion itself should be marginalized hehehe

Next, most of the hijackers of 9/11 DID NOT GROW UP IN THE WEST. Many of them came to the west with hatred and plans in place. Muhamed Attah for example went to school in Germany but disliked German culture according to interviews with students who knew him. He already was a radical. Richard Reed was more of a nutcase than a real Muslum convert anyway if you look at his history of psyche problems as examples......

Next, its kinda impossible to assimilate these Algerians, Morrocons, etc if they are veiling themselves off, campaigning for seperate schools, swimming pools, laws for thier community only etc etc.. France has been one of the most accepting of the Muslums and I think now they have realized that acceptance has failed to assimilate them and nothing can be done so now they are firghtened that Muslums are not actually gaining western values and will seek to alter the core fouding principles of France itself and the French people whose roots go back hundreds of years instead of 10 years!!!!!!

Next, the reason Turkey is so nice is because of the reforms of Attaturk and the fact that any who oppossed them were brutally put down. Turkey has also been giving alot of assistance and it has been a very long process of creating a moderate Turkey. Turkey is a bright beacon but also has a culture and history which gave it several advantages. Because it happened with the Turks does not mean it can happen elsewhere.......

Oh yeah and "Afghanboi". I hate to tell you this but France is not "one of the leaders of the world". It only thinks it still is.

And Arieweiner, I think you have a ood point that the French move to ban headscaves will speed movements to make new Islamic schools but I honestly think it was already headed in that direction and very quickly too!!! Quite frankly, the French are in a tough position which I dont envy and its hard to know what to do........

Yes, I agree with "eye Spy" that these people are goign to try to destabilize thier own nations and it always surpirsed me that Britian and France let so many Muslums immigrate who were marked for death as terrorists and subversives in their own nations. Do they think that ounce in England these radicals will take up soccer and tea (waite most do already hehe) and give up thier goals with regards to thier homelands?? Nope, they simply use "Londonistan" and "Paristan" as home base for preaching violent ideology. But I think that Muslums, while most likely not able to insitute Sharia law, can do some other things through democratic means which may not be well liked.........

Next, honestly whats the big deal about gay mairrages?? Im not gay and I have never had problems with gays and I just cant see how two gay people who are in love getting married is gonna trample on my rights or my mairrage ot my wife. I say as long as they arnt doing anything to trample on my rights than let the bastards do as they please. Its not like they can have kids anyway heheheh. For all you relgious people out there, dont you think if God didnt love them and want them then he wouldnt have made them or even let them exist???

[SeanAshi]

Sixgun and tommy gunn are getting to me, apologies
Its alright

[hank]

If everybody is so interested in arguing gay marriage then go to that thread in the humor section. I'd love to keep that going down there. Serbian boy - go read it and make a post, I dare you! ;)

obd - I agree with you about the prophet and the fighting. Don't forget, however, that ALL of Europe sent a lot of people to the middle east on these little vactions called crusades and tried to take the holy land and all. This problem is much deeper than a few muslims in the minority in europe, there is plenty of violence and animosity on both sides to go around. Not really disagreeing, but just sayin'.

hank

[wulfstan]

On a side note, did you guys know that several UK towns actually ban christmas decorations as the local muslim population find it offensive? Something to ponder...

[wulfstan]

By way of evidence, check this slightly different story out. I used to work in this neighbourhood, with the people this Bingo hall was located in. Evrything in Luton is arranged around appeasing the local muslim community, i had to leave!

[Durandal]

So basicly you get what you deserve if your a fag in good ole' Serbia! :lol:

Thus proving YET again that Serbia is nothing but Europe's Jackbooted Trailerpark.

[Haiw]

Yeah... Sad. Maybe Sixgun Symphatec should move to Serbia? He's bound to like it there.

[serbian boy]

You Haiw and Duranadal, you guys are so funny! rofl
I'm sorry that the U.S. has such a small history of oppression of blacks and indians and gays.
In fact come to think of it the U.S. practically has no history compared to european nations like england,germany,SERBIA so don't diss any european nations especially if youre an american!
And any way Yugoslavia was your partner during WW1,WW2 and cold war.
But it just comes to show how americans are backstabbers! :-*$

[Haiw]

You Haiw and Duranadal, you guys are so funny! rofl
I'm sorry that the U.S. has such a small history of oppression of blacks and indians and gays.
In fact come to think of it the U.S. practically has no history compared to european nations like england,germany,SERBIA so don't diss any european nations especially if youre an american!
And any way Yugoslavia was your partner during WW1,WW2 and cold war.
But it just comes to show how americans are backstabbers! :-*$
Thank you. I am from a European country.

So much for your argument... :roll:

[DPGLAW]

I don't think that all religon is evil....just Islam and those damn towelheads... :D woot :fork:

[Sixgun Symphony]

On a side note, did you guys know that several UK towns actually ban christmas decorations as the local muslim population find it offensive? Something to ponder...

I read about that happening. It is just more of the die-versity that western civilization has been forced to embrace.

[wulfstan]

I read about that happening. It is just more of the die-versity that western civilization has been forced to embrace.

Ethnic cleansing from the inside out! According to UK censors, Islam is the biggest growing religion in the UK..... damn sure it's not cos of the benefits; no drinking, no *** before marriage to a cousin you've never met, no pig products, no gambling. More to do with birth rates among first and second generation immigrants.

[serbian boy]

Ok, but Durandal is from Kentucky(fried chicken,mmmm) :lol:

[radon]

. Don't forget, however, that ALL of Europe sent a lot of people to the middle east on these little vactions called crusades and tried to take the holy land and all.

True. But this was absolutely not limitied to Europeans. The muslim people sent before and after theyr own wars to Europe. They were not doing that for a holy land but to spread Islam.

[Durandal]

Ok, but Durandal is from Kentucky(fried chicken,mmmm) :lol:

Man, I have to say, you are even more ignorant than Sixgun...

I knew it was possible, I just did not thnk I would see it on this forum.

[hank]

. Don't forget, however, that ALL of Europe sent a lot of people to the middle east on these little vactions called crusades and tried to take the holy land and all.

True. But this was absolutely not limitied to Europeans. The muslim people sent before and after theyr own wars to Europe. They were not doing that for a holy land but to spread Islam.

In what way does this change what I said? There is violence adn animosity on BOTH sides.

"there is plenty of violence and animosity on both sides to go around"

Read the WHOLE post - not just the first part.


hank

[Durandal]

True. But this was absolutely not limitied to Europeans. The muslim people sent before and after theyr own wars to Europe. They were not doing that for a holy land but to spread Islam.

Because the monks never tried to convert the faithless in the Hol Land...naw. :)

Come on now, the Muslims are did/are doing the same as Christians have done/are doing now.

Spreading the faith.

[radon]

:cantbeli: where did I say the opposite?

[duck]

Where is the Muslim Martin Luther? Will he be executed by the Fundamentalist Inquisition when he steps up? A Fatwah to silence the doubts?

[Durandal]

:cantbeli: where did I say the opposite?

:cantbeli:

Heheh woops...yeah, true.

[serbian boy]

I'm ignorant! Ok watever! :petting:

[786mine]

UoUO, I agree with everything you said but, what do you mean by this?




And belive me...it only the start.



I mean...this law is only the start...what will france do when the muslims will grow more and more...and masqe will be every where.

BTW : anyone know how many % is the muslims in france?

First I agree with what you said. I think the Muslims make up about 5-7% of the population.

[Jehuty]

Duh...
Do you think this 5-7% of muslims are Talibans?
The vast majority of French muslims are integrated in society and have "occidental" values, and i know it because i actually live with them...(some foreign reactions here are laughable)
So does it matter how many they are?
Think before you type, a country like France would never turn into a theocracy.