Terror by another name.

[Skaman]

Sunday 08 February 2004

BAGHDAD — If a "rogue nation" or swarthy men with foreign accents did it, we know what we’d call it. What the world’s most powerful military did to the village of Abou Siffa must be called the same thing: terrorism.

A small citrus grove was the last stop on our tour of this farming hamlet on the Tigris River, 30 miles north of Baghdad and Mohammed Al Taai wanted to give us a gift of fruit. I put the two oranges he gave me in my right coat pocket. In the left clinked two spent shell casings I’d just found on the ground that came from a 25mm gun mounted on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. We listened to the story of how the U.S. military came to Abou Siffa three times in one month, leaving a terrorized community in its wake.

"On December 16, at 2:00 am, on a rainy night, all the houses in this village, about two dozen, were surrounded by U.S. troops in tanks and humvees. They surrounded the fields of the farmers by tanks and they destroyed the fences of the fields," Mohammed tells the six people from Christian Peacemaker Teams who have come to document detainees’ stories.

"They destroyed the doors of the houses and of the rooms. At night usually the doors of the bedrooms are locked, so they kicked the doors in and destroyed them by their weapons. After that they gathered the men, beating them severely. One was an old man and they smashed his glasses, and for that old man they had to guide him."

Rounded up in the raid were two attorneys, 15 schoolteachers, men in their 80’s, a blind man, an elderly man so frail he had to be carried by the soldiers—virtually all the men of Abou Siffa. They even apprehended police officers and three children.

Mohammed explains more of what happened that December night. "They stole from Imad, the attorney, about 14 million dinars ($10,370). From his father, Kamel, they stole 4.5 million dinars ($3,300). They stole 4 million dinars ($3000) from Ziad, an Iraqi police officer, and from all the other houses together, about 100,000 to 150,000 dinars ($75 to $110). They also took five cars. Later they returned two of them that belonged to police officers who died in the line of duty."

The reason for the raid was to apprehend Kais Hattam, Mohammed said, adding that Hattam claimed he planned to surrender to the Americans the following morning. Military authorities told CPT members the day after our visit to Abou Siffa that Hattam was on a "wanted" list because he was reported to be a Ba’ath Party leader in the Tikrit area and his name appeared in documents found when Saddam Hussein was captured. Hattam’s lawyer is Kamel Khoumais, one of the two attorneys detained in the raid.

Mohammed takes us to a house where Abbas Abdwahid, a 41 year-old primary school teacher, lived with 15 other people. No one lives there now. Abdwahid and several of the others were among those detained the night of December 16. Two weeks later, on December 31, the military returned. Holes in the brick walls large enough to drive through, daylight through the roof, and a 1987 orange and white VW Passat taxi smashed up against the corner of the house indicate more of the Bradley’s handiwork.

Then on January 2, the military paid Abou Siffa another visit. Mohammed leads us to the rear of another vacant house where four brothers lived, now all imprisoned. Still visible are the tracks the Bradley made as it approached the home of Hamis, Abd Kadir, Mohammed and Jasim, their flattened brick outhouse, and a pile of shell casings. In what had to be a deafening, blinding display of firepower in the middle of a quiet, dark country night, gunners opened fire with the 25mm Bushmaster chain gun and the 7.62mm machine gun, blasting holes large and small into the brick and cement-block home. Amid the rubble, a steel door shot off its hinges leans against a wall, bleeding rust stains from dozens of bullet holes.

In the December 31 and January 2 terror strikes on Abou Siffa no men were apprehended—there were none left. "There was no resistance during the raids," Mohammed said, making the violence and fury with which they were executed the more mysterious. Then one of the villagers added, "The soldiers warned the people that they will make this area 'just like the land of the moon…it will not be good to plant…it will be like the desert.'"

"We now depend on our relatives. Only women stay here and their children are suffering from shock. Nobody will come to work the farms because they are afraid of being detained," Mohammed says, adding optimistically that the fruit can last quite a while if left on the trees.

Two explosions thud in the distance as we are invited to an early supper. With apologies for the simple fare, we are served soup, flatbread, roasted chicken with rice, tomatoes, cucumbers, fresh fruit, Pepsi and tea.

After dinner, Kamel Khoumais' wife, Hania, tells us part of her story. She says sadly, "For 47 days I did not see him. I tried. I went to Abu Ghraib prison twice. I was turned back with tears." Their family car was taken by the soldiers and her little finger, still swollen and red, was broken when the keys were ripped out of her hands, she says.

Six weeks later, 79 adult men are still held in Abu Ghraib prison, still unable to have visitors. One ill detainee has been released. The three children have been transferred to Al Karkh, a special youth prison in Baghdad. They are allowed visitors. Mohammed and a friend have gone to see them. 'However, it is difficult," he said. "It is not easy to get there, the lines are very long, and even family members are kept behind a line 20 feet away from their children.'

If the military got its man, Kais Hattam, on December 16, why did they imprison 81 other men and boys from this hamlet of two dozen homes? Why did the troops and the Bradley return on December 31 and January 2 to destroy houses? The farmers of Abou Siffa say they do not know. Perhaps the Army does.

-------

Mike Ferner spent the month of February, 2003 in Baghdad and Basra, with Voices in the Wilderness, a Chicago-based campaign to nonviolently resist economic and military warfare against Iraq. He returned recently to write about the current situation in Iraq. He is a member of Veterans for Peace and works for the Program on Corporations, Law & Democracy.

[Vance]

I want a report from someone who's not f*cking biased.

[James]

Mike Ferner spent the month of February, 2003 in Baghdad and Basra

Eh, the war started last March, right? This article seems to indicate that he was in Iraq during the last couple of months. Doesn't quite match for me, but then a lot of things don't make sense...


If a "rogue nation" or swarthy men with foreign accents did it, we know what we’d call it. What the world’s most powerful military did to the village of Abou Siffa must be called the same thing: terrorism.


Terrorism is defined by Webster's as:


the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

Terrorism is defined by the U.S. Military as:


The calculated use of violence or the threat of violence to attain goals, political, ideological, or religious in nature. This is done through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear. Terrorism involves a criminal act that is often symbolic in nature and intended to influence n audience beyond the immediate victims.

Examples that come to mind (my mind, anyway) are suicide bombongs / car bombongs carried out agains Iraqi police stations and Army recruiting offices by insurgents and/or foreign terrorists. Apprehending known members of the former Baath regime seems like a reasonable thing to do.

I was not there, but a few things come to mind regarding the other inhabitants of this village. According to the article, they apparently knew who Kais Hattam was and they knew that he was staying in the village. If I had been involved on the U.S. side, I think my interpratation of this would be that, at the very least, the inhabitants were passive supporters of the insurgents. That thought, coupled with the fact that many more Maricans have been killed by the insurgents than died before May 1, would lead me to plan for a powerful and dynamic raid similar to what was described. A few people were roughed up, and quite a number were detained, but no one was killed.

Anyway...

I will now see if I can find a U.S. Army version of what happened. I suspect that something put out by Voices in the Wilderness might be a tad biased.

[usa320]

Comparing the most humane and skilled military force in the world to thugs and suicide bombers who blow up school buses and weddings is just disgusting.

Our forces suspected that their were resistant forces within that compound... And had no knowledge otherwise. They had every reason to kick doors down and break fences.

Terrorism is the gratutitous use of violence against a civilian population in an effort to force your own political or religious ideology upon them. Kicking down the door of a suspected militant is FAR from terrorism.

[Merik]

Wouldnt this just be a little thing called a raid? A raid that had to have been caused by a tip off of arms in the village or attacks against the Army and ties were led to the village? I mean wtf, do some research onto why all that happened.

[Jack Mehoff]

Typical doucebag19. Why am I not surprised?


Good catch James rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl


Mike Ferner spent the month of February, 2003 in Baghdad and Basra

Eh, the war started last March, right? This article seems to indicate that he was in Iraq during the last couple of months. Doesn't quite match for me, but then a lot of things don't make sense...

[Skaman]

Typical doucebag19. Why am I not surprised?


Good catch James rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl


Mike Ferner spent the month of February, 2003 in Baghdad and Basra

Eh, the war started last March, right? This article seems to indicate that he was in Iraq during the last couple of months. Doesn't quite match for me, but then a lot of things don't make sense...

Mike Ferner spent the month of February, 2003 in Baghdad and Basra, with Voices in the Wilderness, a Chicago-based campaign to nonviolently resist economic and military warfare against Iraq. He returned recently to write about the current situation in Iraq. He is a member of Veterans for Peace and works for the Program on Corporations, Law & Democracy.

[Trigger]

ducimus19 spewed:

If a "rogue nation" or swarthy men with foreign accents did it, we know what we’d call it. What the world’s most powerful military did to the village of Abou Siffa must be called the same thing: terrorism.

...and what you continue to do here must be called something too: TROLLING

How about posting an article with at least a shred of believability to it. :roll:

[Trigger]

Mike Ferner spent the month of February, 2003 in Baghdad and Basra, with Voices in the Wilderness, a Chicago-based campaign to nonviolently resist the efforts of the U.S. to stabilize and rebuild Iraq. He returned recently to make **** up in order to portray U.S. soldiers as bloodthirsty thugs. He is a member of Veterans for Peace and works for the Program on Corporations, Law & Democracy.

[Jack Mehoff]

Hey, can we see the whole link?

[James]

Mike Ferner spent the month of February, 2003 in Baghdad and Basra, with Voices in the Wilderness, a Chicago-based campaign to nonviolently resist economic and military warfare against Iraq. He returned recently...


My interpretation was that he had returned to the States recently. Regardless, my thoughts in the earlier post stand.

[aFgHaNibOi]

You go Ducimus. :hug:

[Tommy Gunn]

This Miker Ferner is a propagandist for the insurgents in Iraq, thus he is as much an enemy as Goebbels was in WWII.

Ditto for the troll who posted this anti-American crap.

[Skaman]

.rofl


Oh man, this is gold. Its propaganda, anti American, rhetoric bull ****, lies!!! Etc. (its always the same) America is infallible and an evangelist nation right?... :cantbeli:


hahahaha, it never ends. I love the reasoning you guys present

[mocking_loudly_died]

.rofl


Oh man, this is gold. Its propaganda, anti American, rhetoric bull ****, lies!!! Etc. (its always the same) America is infallible and an evangelist nation right?... :cantbeli:



hahahaha, it never ends. I love the reasoning you guys present

Do you have fun outside of posting "I hate America" threads?

I mean, you dislike violent computer games, you hate action movies, you get offended by silly avatars and you basically come across as abit of a boring sod.

I’m not getting a male vibe from you.
Is there a girl inside waiting to come out in a nice pink frock?

[Tengu]

I mean, you dislike violent computer games, you hate action movies, you get offended by silly avatars and you basically come across as abit of a boring sod.
dear sweet jebus wtf!!!

[WARPIG]

.rofl


Oh man, this is gold. Its propaganda, anti American, rhetoric bull ****, lies!!! Etc. (its always the same) America is infallible and an evangelist nation right?... :cantbeli:


hahahaha, it never ends. I love the reasoning you guys present


By the way your celebrating... it seems your flame attempt was succesful. Good job. I hope it validates your pitifull, meager, life. I think many of us have given up reasoning with you and your posts have become predictable and boring. I suspect the best you will get is some personal attacks you and some half assed attempts at dispute. You have successfully lowered the bar dicamus.
Just out of curiousity... as you are an experienced and decorated military vet... what kind of ethics or values training does your military provide the soldiers on a regular basis.

[WARPIG]

.rofl


Oh man, this is gold. Its propaganda, anti American, rhetoric bull ****, lies!!! Etc. (its always the same) America is infallible and an evangelist nation right?... :cantbeli:


hahahaha, it never ends. I love the reasoning you guys present


By the way your celebrating... it seems your flame attempt was succesful. Good job. I hope it validates your pitifull, meager, life. I think many of us have given up reasoning with you and your posts have become predictable and boring. I suspect the best you will get is some personal attacks you and some half assed attempts at dispute. You have successfully lowered the bar dicamus.
Just out of curiousity... as you are an experienced and decorated military vet... what kind of ethics or values training does your military provide the soldiers on a regular basis?

[Uncle Sam]

I bet you (ducimus19) have lots of friends... :cantbeli: Talk about layin' down some raunchy propaganda...

[Haiw]

Comparing the most humane and skilled military force in the world to thugs and suicide bombers who blow up school buses and weddings is just disgusting.
Quite unfortunate you should mention blowing up weddings... *cough* Afghanistan *cough*

[Sixgun Symphony]

Quite unfortunate you should mention blowing up weddings... *cough* Afghanistan *cough*

The wedding was an unfortunate acccident and you know that it is not at all like the intentional assaults on non-combatants by terrorists.

[Haiw]

...and hence I didn't draw the conclusion that the American armed forces are a bunch of murdering terrorists.

[Trigger]

Haiw wrote:

...and hence I didn't draw the conclusion that the American armed forces are a bunch of murdering terrorists.
So what other *cough* reason *cough* could you possibly have for posting *cough* it *cough*?

[Yard Ape]

Sunday 08 February 2004

BAGHDAD — If a "rogue nation" or swarthy men with foreign accents did it, we know what we’d call it. What the world’s most powerful military did to the village of Abou Siffa must be called the same thing: terrorism.

http://ermac.net/i/001311.jpg
The use of force is required in many operations other than war (OOTW) & in war. Before you knock all use of force, consider if it was proportional to the threat & military objective intended to be achieved.

In this case, rather than leave potential threats all throught the village they were brought to a detainee collection point. They could have shot all the men, but that would have been out of proportion to the goal. Some were old or blind? Would the soldiers have the luxury of assuming this to be true & not an act? Could they risk leaving a potential sniper unattended? In this case they did accomodate those who needed it (carrying the sick & old, guiding the vision impared).

[Haiw]

So what other *cough* reason *cough* could you possibly have for posting *cough* it *cough*?
Just that I had to *cough* add in that the US did in fact bomb a wedding once...

[Argyll]

and because USA 320 is a cluless clown!Along with his other Klan members who have recently arrived here from the state penitentiary!

There have been several incidents involving Coalition forces and Wedding Parties,it is a custom for wedding parties to fire into the air,something the coaliton were not aware of,and several wedding party guests have been shot by mistake,thinking they were being attacked.

[OldRecon]

and because USA 320 is a cluless clown!Along with his other Klan members who have recently arrived here from the state penitentiary!

There have been several incidents involving Coalition forces and Wedding Parties,it is a custom for wedding parties to fire into the air,something the coaliton were not aware of,and several wedding party guests have been shot by mistake,thinking they were being attacked.

Not to mention new years celebration. Not the exactly tame kind of fireworks one is accustomed to at home :D.
One thing that somewhat amazed me with the locals was how crap shots they generaly were, considered the early age to which people down there were exposed to weapons down there.
Also wery wastefull with ammo.
Scenes of local militiamen hunting eagles or vultures with CAR-15's on full auto for sport not being all that uncommon rofl.
Ain't all too updated on the debate about the propositions for banning marketing of semi-autos on the civilian gun-market in the States, but personaly I think hunting with semi-autos is a nuts idea for paranoid, urbanised, retards rather than a sport.
If you can't get your game any other way, you sholdn't go hunting.
As for hoo ha and kicking in doors, a reticent but firm approach, with the ability to put up a :) to ease tension, often works better in the long run.

[Operation Ivy]

.rofl


Oh man, this is gold. Its propaganda, anti American, rhetoric bull ****, lies!!! Etc. (its always the same) America is infallible and an evangelist nation right?... :cantbeli:



hahahaha, it never ends. I love the reasoning you guys present

Do you have fun outside of posting "I hate America" threads?

I mean, you dislike violent computer games, you hate action movies, you get offended by silly avatars and you basically come across as abit of a boring sod.

I’m not getting a male vibe from you.
Is there a girl inside waiting to come out in a nice pink frock?

rofl

[scm77]

Clearly the US forces performing raids looking for insurgents that are doing suicide bomb attacks agains civilians are terrorists. When will those American hypocrite pigs learn???

Give me a f*cking break.

[Jack Mehoff]

.rofl


Oh man, this is gold. Its propaganda, anti American, rhetoric bull ****, lies!!! Etc. (its always the same) America is infallible and an evangelist nation right?... :cantbeli:



hahahaha, it never ends. I love the reasoning you guys present

Do you have fun outside of posting "I hate America" threads?

I mean, you dislike violent computer games, you hate action movies, you get offended by silly avatars and you basically come across as abit of a boring sod.

I’m not getting a male vibe from you.
Is there a girl inside waiting to come out in a nice pink frock?

In addition, he got offended if I post a picture of my sidearm through my webcam in a place call WWW.MILITARYPHOTOS.NET

[Trigger]

There have been several incidents involving Coalition forces and Wedding Parties,it is a custom for wedding parties to fire into the air,something the coaliton were not aware of,and several wedding party guests have been shot by mistake,thinking they were being attacked.

...and this makes the U.S. troops involved in these accidents the equivalent of some prick with a Semtex vest in Jerusalem right?

[Argyll]

There have been several incidents involving Coalition forces and Wedding Parties,it is a custom for wedding parties to fire into the air,something the coaliton were not aware of,and several wedding party guests have been shot by mistake,thinking they were being attacked.

...and this makes the U.S. troops involved in these accidents the equivalent of some prick with a Semtex vest in Jerusalem right?


Did I say that Trigger?

I answered about the wedding party only!

[Trigger]

I was simply trying to put it in context with the topic of the thread and with Haiw's and your responses.

Not flaming ya!

[Argyll]

Both our responses were pertaining to the wedding incidents,nothing else.

It was a rebuke in USA320's views,it was he who mentioned the blowing up of weddings as an act of terror,a civilian target if you like


Haiw used this point that the wedding in Afghanistan was also a civilian target,the difference being here though was it was NOT DELIBERATELY target,it was an unfortunate incident that none the less could have been avoided,my points were the failure of understanding customs and traditions in these places inevitably lead to unfortunate incidents.

The difference Trigger was there was no Intent on the coalitions part to taget such parties,where as an act of terrorism requires an intent.

USA320 used a bad choice of words in his content,and this was picked up on . ;)

[DPGLAW]

from reading all of ducimus19's posts I have come to the conclusion that he is really an asshole and I really, really hope that he is not an American. If he is he is a disgrace to this country and seems to really empathize and agree with the terrorists, making me think he is one....although this is unlikely, hopefully one day he or someone he knows will be a victim of a terror attack. Mabye then he will realize how stupid and naive he sounds.

I am sure someone will flame me for the above statement but my reason for making it is that he needs to be taught a lesson. We (America) did a great thing in Iraq, we freed an oppressed people from a horrible dictator and we halped to ensure that the world remains free. To make statements like he did in his post on this thread, that we americans are terrorists, is just asinine. We are the farthest thing from terrorists. The brave and compassionate soldiers who fought in Iraq, for whom the jerk ducimus19 obviously has no respect, took great care in making sure that civilians were not hurt. The did this even to the point that their own lives were at risk.

Sorry for the rant but it makes me so mad that someone who is obviously as stupid as ducimus19, talks all kinds of **** about our great country. We have done so much to make this workd a better, and safer place. In addition, he obviously has no respect for those brave souls who gave thier lives for the advancement of freedom. By making statements like he does he is insulting those soldiers who gave their lives to protect us, and even as unfortunate as it is, to protect him. It's a shame he didn't live in iraq, mabye then Saddam could of taken care of him......

Oh yeah, and since you are ever so smart Im sure you know that to commit an act of terrorism it requires "mens rea" and I can assure you that this was not part of the American's motivation, in going to war, or raiding this village. Since I am sure that you probably have no idea what mens rea is douche, look it up. You will see that to commit a crime, i.e. terrorism, mens rea is required

[Jack Mehoff]

duci is a Canadian

[DPGLAW]

I think that this Mike Ferner as well as douchebag19 should be put in Camp Delta down in Cuba....since they are obviously supporting terrorists and terrorism, by way of their efforts to slander and degrade the great effort of the United States to rid the world of terror. What did Bush say?? If u support terrorists, you are a terrorist. Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I think that douchebag definitely fits in this category.

In addition, thanks for answering my questions Jackmehoff.....Well him being Canadian partly explains why he is such an ass and idiot....He is from America Jr. so he is jealous

[DPGLAW]

Argyll....Wether or not it is a custom and tradition for those cultures to fire guns in the air to celebrate a wedding is irrellevant. They are in a combat zone and should of thought about shooting in the air before they did it...No one in a combat zone should be shooting a weapon unless they are defending themselves ot are on a firing range.

Yes, I agree it was a very unfortunate accident and I feel bad for the families of those who died. However, by firing their guns they were asking for something to happen. If they were not doing that the groom would be here whining about his wife now :)....but in all seriousness I do feel bad for them, but the wedding party didn't think before they acted and there are always concequences when that happens...sometimes more severe than others.

[WARPIG]

Please stop talking...
Yes the incident sucks.. but it was not the wedding party's fault.
That country has been in a combat zone for decades... why do you think that fire guns in the air instead of singing frigging karaoke!!
I am going to go out on a limb and assume that none of the wedding party's families were on the distribution list of flight ops and sorties.

[Argyll]

Argyll....Wether or not it is a custom and tradition for those cultures to fire guns in the air to celebrate a wedding is irrellevant. They are in a combat zone and should of thought about shooting in the air before they did it...No one in a combat zone should be shooting a weapon unless they are defending themselves ot are on a firing range.

Yes, I agree it was a very unfortunate accident and I feel bad for the families of those who died. However, by firing their guns they were asking for something to happen. If they were not doing that the groom would be here whining about his wife now :)....but in all seriousness I do feel bad for them, but the wedding party didn't think before they acted and there are always concequences when that happens...sometimes more severe than others.

Not by their definitions DPGLAW,they were nowhere near the frontlines,lets not forget that Afghanistan have been practicing this celebration for decaded perhaps longer,which means they did in during the Soviet era,and under the Taliban,and also when the country was at war with each other............you're accusing them of something they've done for generations,it is not our traditions ,but it was not a war to them,to us yes it was,to them it was just another day in Afghanistan,you sound like perhaps we should be forcing Western views and customs and ideals on them.They didn't think because there was no need to,to them being in a combat zone was irrelevant.

People who have lived under these conditions become sterilised of the meaning combat,to them it is no different than a tribal fued,you're oblivious to the fact that everyone in Iraq and Afghanistan carried weapons ,that was their way of life,who are we to judge what should be allowed and what not to be?


But tell me are there no ROE's pertaining to the authorised discharge of a firearm in a combat zone,especially in the vicinity of civilians?Are aircraft also not under ROE's for the release of Ordinance?Think back to the ANG Pilots who dropped their weapons on the Canadians,they were told not to do it,as it was not within the ROE's to do so


I agree it was a tragedy,an accident none the less,but there have been several of these type of accidents,and they need to be investigated ,to prevent such happeneing again,it is folly not to be aware of cultural differences especially in a combat zone,it's called "Hearts and Minds"

[WARPIG]

I am sure there are ROE's for every kind of engagement. I am no Zoomie but I know that the rules, jurisdiction, and protocols in a combat zone are so thick, that it is impossible to know them all. From the air it is pretty hard to discern friend from foe. Most of the time the first and only hint you get is when hot metal comes flying at you. That being said... Zoomies are supposed to be trained to know the difference.
The problem is.. If I have to go into a blind situation, knowing that civilians are there, but the enemy is too... I have to go on instinct and training. I pray that I have the state of mind and quickness to make a split second decision. Shoot/don't shoot situations are up close and personal. If I screw up, I get shot in the face or I have to live with the dead child's image that I just killed. A Zoomie only sees a target... a big boom...then no target. The instant he feels threatened he is trained to eliminate that threat and protect his crew and aircraft. Shoot/ don't shoot decisions tend to lean toward shoot more in the air.
I don't like it... but it is a fact of war. We have a moral and ethical responsibility to be able to recognize enemy targets and non combatants. As much as dicamus wants us to think we purposely unleash firepower when ever we can justify it... it is not the case. I know firsthand that the military is spending ridiculous amounts of money on technology that helps pilots, gunners, and foot soldiers differ between friend and foe.

[Nizark]

Yaaaaawwn...anyone got some pretzels?

[DPGLAW]

I agree that there should be an inquery into this as I do not like it when innocent people die either. But just because they have been practicing a tradition for years does not necessarily make it an intelligent thing to do now. I think that you do bring up some intelligent arguments, unlike that douchebag19 :), but I can't see how they didn't know it was a war, there are bombs dropping and soldiers on the ground, plus this is reality...I don't beleive that there was anyone at all in Afghan. that didn't know there was a war. I still wish this accident didn't happen and all I am saying id that mabye if they weren't shooting guns in the air, mabye they would still be here.

I wish it didn't happen to a civilian, plus it is a waste of a bomb that we could use on a towelhead that deserves it. I hope that we can find a way to avoid this horrible accident in the future

[gilgoul]

BLA BAL BLA BLA BLA
Those guys wiish they were reporting from Spain in 1936, accusing every soldier of the worst "fascists" atrocities< and drinking the words of The "witnesses" as the gospel, just because the guy is a fellah, or a shoemaker or watever but a representative of the governement they hate.
Clearly pathetic, and dangerous.
It brings us to the real question, can we see the "truth" because we are on the spot? does it make us less biased ? IN my case, i`m completely biased in favor of my country, wich is natural, i might question the decisiosn of my governement, and often disagree, and i do still feel a certain empathy for the Palestinians who are nt involved in terrorism,but also victim of it since it makes us make them a harder life. but If my task is to arrest even an innocent one in order to dort out a village, I have no problem with that, and if in the process someone is putting up a fight, may be it. The guy calling that terrorism should rather review his definitions of word, and receive a good spanking for dangerous handling of highly sensitive word.
Those "alternative" sources of information are in a sence pretty dangerous, because they are no journalist, don`t have either the training or the minimal professional "circonspection", and they come with their world vision that pretends to be "moral" because they don`t bear arms, because, if they might put other people in danger, they don`t wan`t to see it, always rejecting the responsability on the other, in short, those guys are despicable, they help ****, they lack completely a global perspective, and are the first one to judge and give lessons, doesn`t it remind you the assholes who just wnen`t a little further, to the "direct action",?

[ChuckThunder]

Voices in the Wilderness

He just lost all credibility. Voices in the Wilderness is the same bunch of people who wanted to be "human shields" before the war started. He must really "care" about the people of Iraq if he was ok with Saddam remaining in power.
:bash:

[Roddy666]

Comparing the most humane and skilled military force in the world to thugs and suicide bombers who blow up school buses and weddings is just disgusting.


the american army may be very humane, but the australians win the niceness award, not the US. also, they are not the most skilled, just the best equipped.

and after all, how skilled can an army who accepts people who are clinically defined as overweight (over 160lbs) and that has the most cases of blue-on-blue actually be?

[mocking_loudly_died]

the american army may be very humane, but the australians win the niceness award, not the US. also, they are not the most skilled, just the best equipped.

and after all, how skilled can an army who accepts people who are clinically defined as overweight (over 160lbs) and that has the most cases of blue-on-blue actually be?

Oh dear.

You wouldn't happen to be an Australian with a military ***** complex would you?

[Jack Mehoff]

Comparing the most humane and skilled military force in the world to thugs and suicide bombers who blow up school buses and weddings is just disgusting.


the american army may be very humane, but the australians win the niceness award, not the US. also, they are not the most skilled, just the best equipped.

and after all, how skilled can an army who accepts people who are clinically defined as overweight (over 160lbs) and that has the most cases of blue-on-blue actually be?

I know. I'm overweight. Want to meet me in person?

[Roddy666]

You wouldn't happen to be an Australian with a military ***** complex would you?

nope, american.


I know. I'm overweight. Want to meet me in person?


as fun as that sounds, i think i'll pass