HK M4!!!

[crazystriker]

i just saw this on http://www.hkpro.com/

http://www.hkpro.com/m4red.jpg

its supposedly a M4 made by HK. does anyone have any info on it???

[ogukuo72]

Will this finally put an end to the M4 vs HK debate? :D

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

intense woot
I wonder what makes it different from the Demiaco's and the Aramalites and Bushmasters....

[DE_Six]

The question is: is the gas piston mechanism a clone of the traditional AR-15, blowing directly into the action, or of the G36, whit its short gas piston? If the former, this Hk M4 is just pretty. If the latter, it could mean a serious increase in reliability, but then maybe the new mechanism prevents the use of the RAS? Can't see squat from that pic, obviously just a teaser...

Intriguing...

[mocking_loudly_died]

Give it to the UK!

[marktigger]

having seen the standard of the refit they did on the SA80 i would say HK could probably improve the M4 the quality of the parts they produced is noticibly higher.
Can anyone confirm that the G36 was designed following the lessons of GW1 as an SA80 replacement?

[Royal]

Interesting.

I agree with Mark on the standard of the refit of the L85/85. Then again for the ammount MoD paid they could have gold plated the f**king things (or bought the C7/8 or G36).

[marktigger]

Royal totally agree about the cost what a missed opporunity but then could the Govt/Chain of command have owned up to the fact they bought a pup.

[SILENT SCOPE]

A Heckler and Koch M4!? What next an HK M1911!?

[Gringo]

A Heckler and Koch M4!? What next an HK M1911!?

U mean the USP .45 or Mk23?

[Retard]

A Heckler and Koch M4!? What next an HK M1911!?

I take it from your comment that you are already aware of the HK M1911 rumors. S&W, SIG & now HK.

[michaelmike]

:lol:
HK 1911 is a sure "coming-soon",not a rumour anymore.Wonder what HK will contribute to the legend of 1911? I,for one can't wait!!

Big 1911 fan

[Marmot1]

I wonder how would look HK AK-74 :-) should be nice reliable just perfect for me woot

[He219]

Sweet! It's also got a Crane tele-stock ....


So when is the collector's edition HK Martinin Henry being released?

[thatguy96]

I wonder what makes it different from the Demiaco's and the Aramalites and Bushmasters....
Increased quality control, but that'd be about it. Looks like just another clone to me. HK, with its new American factory for the XM8 and the other OICW components, is just acting like any corporation, and trying to steal market share by applying its brand name to products people already like.

Oh, and the gas-piston upper for the AR-15/M16 pattern has already been done...by US!...this'll be just another outlet for HK fanboys IMO... You can already see it in this thread. Everyone thinks this thing will be a million times more reliable than an M4 pattern weapon built by anyone else. Well, if it is, its a matter of the construction quality and not the weapon's design, an arguement that people have used to say that the G36/XM8 pattern is so much better than the AR-15/M16 pattern.

Its all ridiculous to me, and I'm sure they're going to charge a fortune for the HK brandname, for a rifle that you could buy from anybody else for much less.

[Uncle Sam]

I still like the M-4 !

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I wonder what makes it different from the Demiaco's and the Aramalites and Bushmasters....
Increased quality control, but that'd be about it. Looks like just another clone to me. HK, with its new American factory for the XM8 and the other OICW components, is just acting like any corporation, and trying to steal market share by applying its brand name to products people already like.

Oh, and the gas-piston upper for the AR-15/M16 pattern has already been done...by US!...this'll be just another outlet for HK fanboys IMO... You can already see it in this thread. Everyone thinks this thing will be a million times more reliable than an M4 pattern weapon built by anyone else. Well, if it is, its a matter of the construction quality and not the weapon's design, an arguement that people have used to say that the G36/XM8 pattern is so much better than the AR-15/M16 pattern.

Its all ridiculous to me, and I'm sure they're going to charge a fortune for the HK brandname, for a rifle that you could buy from anybody else for much less.

I'm sure they've probably made a few changes to it (maybe barrel?). After all you said it yourself when you said "Looks like just another clone to me", theres probably some difference otherwise there would be really no need for it in the market. After all if there wasnt anything "new" about it they could go buy from just about anyone else...

[SILENT SCOPE]

I take it from your comment that you are already aware of the HK M1911 rumors. S&W, SIG & now HK.

You're pulling my leg, right? I was seriously joking about them making an M1911, as I know all too well how many companies have jumped on the M1911 bandwagon.

This world gets stranger and stranger everyday!

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well they are pretty much making replica's, the HK m4 should be compatible with other clips from the other m-series rifles, optics, rails ect. I'd assume it would be the same if HK made the M1911 also.
I'd be really interested to see what price this HK m4 is going to sell for, and the advantages if any of the HK version compared to other series.

[-Max2-]

Another pic:

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4coverlg.jpg

;)

[thatguy96]

I'm sure they've probably made a few changes to it (maybe barrel?). After all you said it yourself when you said "Looks like just another clone to me", theres probably some difference otherwise there would be really no need for it in the market. After all if there wasnt anything "new" about it they could go buy from just about anyone else...
They've only made one important change that I can see, they've stamped "Heckler and Koch" into the lower reciever. There are really no differences between Diemaco AR-15/M16 pattern weapons and those made by Bushmaster or Colt (with the exception of quality control, and this is still up for debate), but they have one big advantage over either brand, their price. I still say that HK is just trying to get in on the action, especially seeing the number of people in the world that use AR-15/M16 pattern weapons, and they'll be pushing their brand name above all else ("In a world of compromises, some don't" kinda BS, as usual).

Oh, and I just noticed that they have HK style pictogram markings instead of the typical "Safe-Semi-Full" markings on the lower. As far as I can see, its just like any other M4 or clone.

[REMOV]

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4rightmainpopup.jpg

[REMOV]

Source: http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/rifles-carbines/m4.html

http://www.hk-usa.com/images/hkm4logo.jpg

THE HKM4 SYSTEM

Inspired by the resounding success of the midlife improvement program of the British SA80 (L85/L86) Weapons System, Heckler & Koch began a detailed assessment of the technical deficiencies of the standard US-issue M4 Carbine in early 2002.

Combining the lessons learned from this program to the already world renowned design, testing and manufacturing capabilities of HK an
internally funded project was launched to improve the reliability, safety and durability as well as the salient features of the baseline weapon system.
Working with current users from around the globe HK set out to produce an M4-type Carbine that would outperform the baseline weapon and provide the high degree of performance required by the user community, particularly those within the special operations arena who demand more and expect no compromise when lives are at stake.

High-speed video assessment and extensive live-fire testing in extreme operational environments such as the U.S. Army Desert Proving Ground in Yuma, Arizona revealed multiple areas for immediate improvement. Improvements have been made to the internal operating system and miscellaneous component parts to improve reliability in best and worse case scenarios, with all types of ammunition, with all barrel lengths and with and without sound suppressors attached.

A unique user removable gas system can be factory retrofitted to existing weapons and fits within modified hand guards or a modified Rail Interface System (RIS) allowing all current standard accessories and sights to be fitted to the HKM4 as normal.

The HK-proprietary gas system does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapons’ interior. This radically reduces operator cleaning time, increases the reliability of the weapon and
extends the interval between stoppages.

The elimination of the gas tube typical of the Stoner AR15/M16/M4 direct gas operating system means that the HKM4 will function normally even
if the weapon is fired full of water without first being drained.

To improve reliability, service life and operator safety during obstructed bore occurrences or after extreme extended firing sessions (>300 rounds) HK has produced its famous cold hammer forged barrel for the HKM4 in various lengths to include 10, 14.5, 16.5, and 20 inches.

The highest quality European steel is used in this unique manufacturing process producing a barrel that provides superior accuracy for greater
than 20,000 rounds with minimal degradation. The goal of the program to offer an M4-style carbine that will fire 20,000 rounds without cleaning, lubrication, stoppages, or parts replacement has been realized in the development of the HKM4 Enhanced Carbine.

In addition to the improvements in the baseline weapon HK has produced a high reliability magazine and a proprietary buffer to improve functional reliability as well as an add-on single shot 40 x 46mm AG-C grenade launcher for quick attachment to the RIS without tools.

HK has applied its proven and fielded Safety Blank Firing Attachment and Live Round Excluder Magazine technology to the HKM4 Carbine to eliminate the possibility of live rounds being loaded into and fired through a standard issue weapon outfitted for blank firing only.

While development and validation testing of the HKM4 is still ongoing, it is anticipated that HK will offer retrofit services for existing M4-style
weapons to the HKM4 standard for U.S. and foreign military and law enforcement users. A “ drop in” HKM4 upper receiver module and a complete carbine are also nearing completion.

The HKM4 has been developed by HK for use by military and law enforcement personnel as an interim performance upgrade to existing US M4 carbines to improve solider survivability in combat until the XM8 design is completed, fully tested and available for fielding. The HKM4 is not expected to be available for military or law enforcement deliveries until late 2004. No definitive decision has been as yet made to offer the HKM4 or its components for commercial or retail purchase.

The full potential of the M4 carbine has now been realized with the introduction of the HKM4.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unique Features:
• Short-stroke piston gas system--
--Improved reliability
--100% function
--No fouling directed into weapon
--Less cleaning
--User removable/exchangeable components
--Insensitive to barrel length or ammunition changes
• Improved buffer system
• Improved steel magazine:
--Improved feeding reliability, durability, service life
• Refined barrel/bolt locking recesses/lugs:
--Improved function
• Improved extractor and spring, buffer:
--Improved function
• Enhanced AG-C add-on 40mm grenade launcher
• HK cold-hammer forged barrel
--Extended service life
--Improved accuracy and user safety

Additional ongoing work:
• Monolithic upper receiver with integral Rail Adapter System
• Improved surface finish, ambidextrous controls
• Safety Blank Firing Adapter and live round excluder magazine
• HK free-floating modular rail system
• Integrated reflex sight with nested IR laser aimer and illuminator

[REMOV]

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4upper.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/mil-leimages/m4yumamudpreppopup.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4sandpopup.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4yumaburst.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/mil-leimages/m4waterdunkpop.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/mil-leimages/m4yumasand2popup.jpg

[Seraphim]

Im sold, PM when they are selling it to civies.

[seventy6er]

Nice pics, REMOV...

[navylt]

Leave it to Remov to pull out the pics and details and to the Germans for creating another fantastic weapons upgrade.

Thanks for the pics, Remov.

[thatguy96]

Leave it to Remov to pull out the pics and details and to the Germans for creating another fantastic weapons upgrade.
*bangs head against the wall*...Does no one read my posts? I really think no one does. As soon as Remov posts something, all other posts are null and void...here, let me post something again:

Oh, and the gas-piston upper for the AR-15/M16 pattern has already been done...by US!
ITS BEEN DONE! The Germans aren't doing anything special. Gimme a day and I'll have the information on the one that was designed here in the good old US of A before HK did it. Not to mention the AR-18 stands as the original proof of concept.


Unique Features:
[1]• Short-stroke piston gas system--
--Improved reliability
--100% function
--No fouling directed into weapon
--Less cleaning
--User removable/exchangeable components
--Insensitive to barrel length or ammunition changes
[2]• Improved buffer system
[3]• Improved steel magazine:
--Improved feeding reliability, durability, service life
[4]• Refined barrel/bolt locking recesses/lugs:
--Improved function
[5]• Improved extractor and spring, buffer:
--Improved function
[6]• Enhanced AG-C add-on 40mm grenade launcher
[7]• HK cold-hammer forged barrel
--Extended service life
--Improved accuracy and user safety

1- Already been done by a US concern, not to mention the AR-18
2- Um...last I checked improved buffers have been available for years, unique design maybe, but the AR-15/M16's buffer has been a source of problems (and subsequent after-market replacement and improvement) for years
3- How can a steel mag be unique? Improved quality I'm sure...but its still a simple steel mag
4- This is interesting, and I would definitly hand it to HK on this, but I would like to see their new bolt head and chamber
5- See 2
6- This rifle and any other AR-15/M16 pattern weapon :roll:
7- First instance of HK brand name marketing...HK has sworn by its cold forging for years, but I've never really heard of it being all that much better than other methods of creating high quality barrels

[seventy6er]

*bangs head against the wall*...Does no one read my posts? I really think no one does. As soon as Remov posts something, all other posts are null and void...here, let me post something again:


Hey, is someone pissed off because he doesn't get enough attention?? :petting:

[thatguy96]

Yes, yes I am...not that it makes all that much difference, this being an internet forum of all things...happened in the thread about the LSS too, I say something, and then Remov repeats it, and gets thanked for the info...

[seventy6er]

Hmm, I didn't thank him for any info. Just liked his pics...

[thatguy96]

And I wasn't complaining about what you said either...at least I don't think so...who knows...

Remov didn't add that there's already a gas-piston upper for the AR-15/M16 pattern. I was more pissed that someone was giving the credit to the Germans, or HK, who hasn't really done anything all that inovative...and its a product of my general disposition that HK is some trendy clothes store or even the Microsoft of the firearms industry. Just because its an HK means that its 10x better and definitly amazingly advanced. It just pisses me off, and makes me rant, because HK really just does a good job in stealing up the next trendy thing, that was started on some low level by someone else, and then branding it with their mark, and suddenly it becomes the standard. Synthetic polymers and the short-stroke gas-piston are nothing new, and had been used before with success, but the G36 comes along and suddenly its the new uber-weapon. HK does it and its suddenly fashionable...or fashionable again...

Forgive me, but I just don't get it...

Oh, and Remov...you are definitly the king of finding pictures...and I have nothing against you...if that ever comes up...

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

yea those pics are nice woot

[marktigger]

well I'll just have to stick to my SA80A1 for the time being and hope to see an A2 before they're phased out!

No going out and buying my own either :(

[TALOS]

And I wasn't complaining about what you said either...at least I don't think so...who knows...

Remov didn't add that there's already a gas-piston upper for the AR-15/M16 pattern. I was more pissed that someone was giving the credit to the Germans, or HK, who hasn't really done anything all that inovative...and its a product of my general disposition that HK is some trendy clothes store or even the Microsoft of the firearms industry. Just because its an HK means that its 10x better and definitly amazingly advanced. It just pisses me off, and makes me rant, because HK really just does a good job in stealing up the next trendy thing, that was started on some low level by someone else, and then branding it with their mark, and suddenly it becomes the standard. Synthetic polymers and the short-stroke gas-piston are nothing new, and had been used before with success, but the G36 comes along and suddenly its the new uber-weapon. HK does it and its suddenly fashionable...or fashionable again...

Forgive me, but I just don't get it...

Oh, and Remov...you are definitly the king of finding pictures...and I have nothing against you...if that ever comes up...
The colt weapons had deficiencies, hk makes good weapons, they decided to make a better m4, whats the problem? :|

[REMOV]

Not to mention the AR-18 stands as the original proof of concept.Sure but in the AR-16 (from 1959), not AR-18 ;)

[Sir Zach of R.]

C'mon guys, let's bury that gun. rofl What is it with the Euros burying they're damn guns. By the way, that's a VLTOR stock.

[ogukuo72]

I take it from your comment that you are already aware of the HK M1911 rumors. S&W, SIG & now HK.

You're pulling my leg, right? I was seriously joking about them making an M1911, as I know all too well how many companies have jumped on the M1911 bandwagon.

This world gets stranger and stranger everyday!

Not so strange. There is a huge demand for the M1911 in the IPSC circuit, not just in the US, but in other parts of the world. Even in Singapore when there is a total ban on civilian owning firearms, the M1911 is very popular for IPSC competition at government approved ranges.

[He219]

Nice pictures, REMOV!
:D

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4mid.jpg
HKM4: 100 percent Heckler & Koch

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4vickerstalk.jpg
M4 Project Manager Larry Vickers points out salient M4 features.

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4scope.jpg

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4scope2.jpg

;)

[TriggerPuller]

I have an M4 by Colt and have never had a problem at all with it EVER!!

TP

[mustamato]

I´m sure this HK M4 (as the non-HK) are pretty good ****. But if I had by
some strange reason the actual chance to choose I would not choose the
M4. Because:

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/cga5p.jpg
Length...

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/cga5p_2.jpg
... and simplicity

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/sbp.jpg
And in case someone wonders, it´s a swedish police CGA5P

[thatguy96]

The colt weapons had deficiencies, hk makes good weapons, they decided to make a better m4, whats the problem?
Colt weapons had problems, not so much anymore (nows its more a matter of their QC), you wanna complain about current issue weapons, go bitch to FN. Also, there are quite reports about Diemaco and Bushmaster clones. HK was not motivated by the desire to make a superior firearm, they were motivated that the majority of the world has never liked their products by any clear majority with the exception of the MP5 and certain pistols. The FAL has the G3 beat by a clean margain, and the AR-15/M16 pattern continues to dominate HKs 5.56x45mm weapons. That and we asked them to see what they could do with it, much as the Brits did with the SA80. However, as most Brits will tell you, for the amount the MoD spent...


Sure but in the AR-16 (from 1959), not AR-18
I was trying to stick to the same caliber, since the AR-16 is the proof of concept in my mind for the AR-10...but yes, you're right that it was the first one... :P

[Ian H]

Can't comment on the accuracy of what people have posted on the various manufacturers, but thanks a lot for the pics REMOV and others, they're very impressive.

woot 100! woot

[maw]

i just found this thread after i'd posted the hkusa link in the gear forum.

thatguy96 is on the money when he says that other manufacturers have already acomplished this.

didn't z-m open the door first?
http://www.zmweapons.com/index.htm

with the lr300
http://www.zmweapons.com/Lg_images/11_lr.jpg

anyways, the gentleman in the following is larry vickers, a well renowned and very highly respected firearms expert/custom gunsmith (think high speed 1911's). he was apparently working on the hk 1911 project. it appears that he's been busy doing other things on the side.

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4vickerstalk.jpg

[thatguy96]

Z/M Weapon's rifles have a redesigned buffer/recoil system, but I'm pretty sure its still direct gas. Rock River Arms and LMS were both working on actual gas-piston uppers, and the LMS one had already reached the working prototype stage (I'm pretty sure the RRA one was close). I heard it somewhere else, and I have to agree, especially with their consumer base being people like me...that someone like Bushmaster is going to probably go and release one now just to spite HK.

edit- my mistake, says that Zitta's guns use an interconnecting op-rod setup...

[maw]

i think pat rogers said that the rra was having reliability problems.
last i heard vickers was still active service out of bragg, how does he find the time???

[thatguy96]

Seeing as the HK M4 project was done under the auspices of the US Government (much as the SA80 upgrade had been done under that of the British Gov), I could see how he would simply be assigned to the project.

[obd]

Hey Mustamoto I agree with you on the simplicity aspect of the bofors but one thing you missed with regards to length: The M4 has a retractable stock, making it far more usefull if ambushed with the stock retracted or using body armor where it needs to have its length adjusted. The Swedish design you posted for length comparison had a folding stock which would be nearly useless to actually carry deployed to compat like that. So I say the M4 is superior because first it has adjusting length stock to account for user preference and body armor that most troops use these days and next, even when stock is retracted it can still be usefull and accurately fired agaisnt shoulder where the Ak5 must be folded out first!!!

[stuntman]

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4upper.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/mil-leimages/m4yumamudpreppopup.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4sandpopup.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4yumaburst.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/mil-leimages/m4waterdunkpop.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/mil-leimages/m4yumasand2popup.jpg

Now hk shows us how to fix it after we have spent lots of money on the xm8 when all we had to do is tell them to fix it! I swear Germans are from another planet? They fix everything smart bastards!

If it wasn't for the the Hk sig on the side of the pics I would think this guy is taking crazy pills! lol!
Love the gun I guess it going to replace the g36?
Wow the flame has started..

[SOG]

just a question 4 thatguy96 or anyone else really.

about hk's 20,000 round torture test, do the other companies do this kind of a test and if so where and if so why the hell dont they advertise against HK using this?

why are there still complaints against the m16 series of dependability? old m16's or something?

just curious, thx for any info.

[marktigger]

thatguy96 I seem to remember from sources like Janes Infantry Weapons that the G3 was more widley sold across the world than the FN.
The main reason the M16 dominates the 5.56mm weapons market is a simple mater of economics the US govt is currentley dumping large quantities of M16's as aid or onto the world arms market and as a defence minister given the choice betwee paying full price for a G36 or getting an M16a2 for next to nothing which would you choose?
As to the XM8/HKM4 why not HK is doing what any sensible company would do cover its options If the US govt doesn't opt for the XM8 and gets an HK upgrade on the M4.....Result. If the US Govt opt for the XM8......Result. And I would sugest that the length of time it will take for all the US military to field XM8 there will probably be a refurbishment of the M4 and if HK do this to even better. You know they may even put colt out of the military small arms buisness. Welcome to global economics.

[REMOV]

I was trying to stick to the same caliber, since the AR-16 is the proof of concept in my mind for the AR-10...but yes, you're right that it was the first one...The AR-16 was fed by 5,56mm rounds. And it was ancestor of the AR-18 and descendant of the AR-10 ;)

[mustamato]

Hey Mustamoto I agree with you on the simplicity aspect of the bofors but one thing you missed with regards to length: The M4 has a retractable stock, making it far more usefull if ambushed with the stock retracted or using body armor where it needs to have its length adjusted. The Swedish design you posted for length comparison had a folding stock which would be nearly useless to actually carry deployed to compat like that. So I say the M4 is superior because first it has adjusting length stock to account for user preference and body armor that most troops use these days and next, even when stock is retracted it can still be usefull and accurately fired agaisnt shoulder where the Ak5 must be folded out first!!!

Haha :)

I think "useless" is quite harsh, dont you think? I had no problems at all
with the AK5 stock, neither when wearing bodyarmour or when I didn´t,
but of course there are people that are longer/shorter than me. That´s
why the AK5C (that the swedish army AK5´s will be modernized to) will
have a stock that is adjustable for length:

http://unwanted.silentheroes.net/bilder/v%e4nster%20sida%20butt.jpg

http://www.i5.mil.se/images/local/narbild-pa-tva-ur-lsk.gif

Notice were on the stock the sling is attached. Simply, having a folded
stock is (here) considered unprofessional (african militia seen on TV)
behavior, the sling is always around the neck and the stock is always
folded out. The folding stock is only usefull when having the weapon on
the back when doing something highly non-combat, when in a cramped
vehicle, etc etc. And I would say that quite much of an average soldiers
time is in a non-combat enviroment.

[kinghk]

Hey Mustamoto I agree with you on the simplicity aspect of the bofors but one thing you missed with regards to length: The M4 has a retractable stock, making it far more usefull if ambushed with the stock retracted or using body armor where it needs to have its length adjusted. The Swedish design you posted for length comparison had a folding stock which would be nearly useless to actually carry deployed to compat like that.

Ak5 is a licence produced version of FN FNC. It is by belgian design.

[thatguy96]

The AR-16 was fed by 5,56mm rounds. And it was ancestor of the AR-18 and descendant of the AR-10
The AR-16 is chambered in 7.62x51mm/.308 Win, and was a direct attempt to see if the AR-10 could be made cheaply (mainly through steel stampings). IIRC there were less than 10 AR-16s ever made, but most of the production knowledge went into the AR-18/180/180B and also affected the production of the AR-10B.


www.armalite.com
AR-16 (1959-60)

http://www.armalite.com/library/history/ar16_color.gif

The folding stock equipped AR-16 is a basic infantry rifle of 7.62mm NATO caliber and capable of launching rifle grenades "without modifications or attachments" to the rifle.

The primary reason for the development of the AR-16 was to produce a weapon with the performance capabilities of the AR-10/AR-15 series, but at a greatly reduced production cost.

Another consideration was to make a rifle less difficult to produce in countries without advanced technological resources.

Although the AR-16 didn’t enter production, elements of its design influenced the 1995 design of the AR-10B.

[REMOV]

The AR-16 is chambered in 7.62x51mm/.308 Win, and was a direct attempt to see if the AR-10 could be made cheaplyThat's interesting. In my source this rifle is decribed as 5,56mm AR-16 assault rifle (appears in two versions with fixed or collapsible butt). Hmm... but you're probably right.

[Groove]

I swear Germans are from another planet? They fix everything smart bastards!


Dont bash me pls but i think Germans made the best weapons in WWI and WW2 and are still leading in Weapon Technology worldwide. Okay USA have all the "Smart" Weapons but i think if you would give Germany the same Military Budget as the US have they could do it better.

Greetings

Groove

[Haiw]

I don't know jack **** about M4s, but isn't the ability to remove the front sights something special?

[thatguy96]

The tri-rail gas-block has been around for a while now, as are detachable front sights.

[Shadow]

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/ag-cmain.jpg

[Falco]

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/ag-cmain.jpg

I don't think that's the HK version because the fire selector is different. Nice pic though woot

[MolliG]

It's a regular Colt M4 (see the stampings), with Heckler & Koch's AG-C. :)

[REMOV]

As I said - more pictures from SHOT SHOW 2004

http://www.hkpro.com/m4piston.jpg
http://www.hkpro.com/m4pistonclose.jpg
Details of gas tube.

http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20018.jpg
http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20019.jpg
http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20023.jpg
http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20024.jpg

Thanks to ko5ma for informations.

[Uninen]

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/ag-cmain.jpg

That is not HKM4, its just HKs grenade launcher on M4.. :|

[Bulkowski]

Damn, The HK looks better then the Colt :o

[He219]

A couple more:
;)

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/shotm4display.jpg
Some of the new HKM4 variants on display at the SHOT Show.

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4schatz.jpg

Bonus:

http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/xm8compactsling.jpg
XM8 Compact Carbine variant with buttcap and sling.

:D

[Uninen]

From Removs source:

http://area51guns.com/

Some " Desert Blast Shoot vids" :) :

http://www.autoglassparts.com/guns/video/dbs_shoot.wmv April 2003

http://www.autoglassparts.com/maydbshigh.wmv May 2003

http://www.crinamex.com/julydbs.wmv June/July 2003

woot

My god.. they had even rifle grenades.. p-)

[He219]

Those videos are great! - Especially that last one.

You Have to Love Nevada Gun Laws! :D

http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20021.jpg
Nice little 10 inch Model!

[Uninen]

I didn't see any HK M4's though ....

:oops: Just didnt want to start a new topic for the.. and as i got the source for them from REMOV's pics.. well you know the rest.. :)

[stuntman]

I swear Germans are from another planet? They fix everything smart bastards!


Dont bash me pls but i think Germans made the best weapons in WWI and WW2 and are still leading in Weapon Technology worldwide. Okay USA have all the "Smart" Weapons but i think if you would give Germany the same Military Budget as the US have they could do it better.

Greetings

Groove

Hey trust me I have great respect for European weapon makers I was just messin around!

And about the best weapons makers?
Maybe ww1 but not ww2,
m1 vr's Muaser?
p51 v ME?
Not everything fella!

[mustamato]

And about the best weapons makers?
Maybe ww1 but not ww2,
m1 vr's Muaser?
p51 v ME?
Not everything fella!

How about Mustang vs FW 190 or Me 262 instead

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/fw190.jpg

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~wingman/pics/me262.jpg

How about Garand vs. MP43/Sturmgewehr or Gewehr 41/43 instead

http://www.army.lt/guns/gallery/S057.jpg

http://halflife.multiplayer.it/dodlife/immagini_armi/gewehr4143.jpg

[Uninen]

Make that "FW 190", Ta 152 or FW 190 Dora-9 and "we" win hands down.. :)

[Haiw]

Hey trust me I have great respect for European weapon makers I was just messin around!

And about the best weapons makers?
Maybe ww1 but not ww2,
m1 vr's Muaser?
p51 v ME?
Not everything fella!
Don't wanna talk you americans down, but German stuff was better on almost all fronts...

-The German MG42 was basically the best MG of the war
-The German STG44...well, I don't need to explain that one eh?
-The Me262... now that's what you call 'a revolutionary fighter'.
-Should I even start with tanks?
;)

[Ratamacue]

The tanks are up to interpretation. Really, the best tank of the war was the T-34: reliable, decent armor, good firepower.

The problem with German tanks was that though they were amazingly advanced and powerful, they were very high maintenance and broke down alot. American tanks like the M4 and M10 may have had less armor and less power, but they could be produced by the thousands upon thousands and required very little maintenance.

In most fields the Germans had better technology. The STG44 was probably the best rifle of the war (though expensive), but the G43 wasn't as reliable as the M1 Garand. The P-51 was an excellent fighter and actually had a very strong kill ratio against German Me262's. The Germans certainly had the edge in the machine gun field as well, though.

[Durandal]

How about what mattered...

American Industrial Base against the German One?

Hup Hup!

[Haiw]

How about what mattered...

American Industrial Base against the German One?

Hup Hup!
Amount of them produced, supply etc. all isn't what we're talking about. Only thing we do is compare them 1 to 1 all things equal. And in that case, German equipment was almost always superior...

[maw]

damn airsofters.


From Removs source:

http://area51guns.com/

Some " Desert Blast Shoot vids" :) :

http://www.autoglassparts.com/guns/video/dbs_shoot.wmv April 2003

http://www.autoglassparts.com/maydbshigh.wmv May 2003

http://www.crinamex.com/julydbs.wmv June/July 2003

woot

My god.. they had even rifle grenades.. p-)

[hank]

Durandal got the only category that mattered in WWII. Would have takend a few more ME-262s to make any difference. Also interesting is that the OKW had to lie to Hitler about the ST44 and the new 7.92 Kurz round to get him to allow production. Hitler thought that creating a new round was not a good idea. I can't remember what they told him it was, but they lied. Then when the commanders of the units that got the ST44 said how great it was, Hitler acted like it was all good.

By the way, I saw an interview with some guys from the First Armored Division about M4 head to head with German tanks. One of them seriously felt that it was "criminal" to send us over against the Germans with the M4. That surely is an overstatement, the point being that the M4 was woefully outclassed and if not for numerical superiority it would not have mattered. Another interesting fact about the M4. We gave or lend/leased a lot of M4s and Grants to the Russians. They generally were unimpressed, in particular they did not like the rubber tracks and their susceptibility to catch on fire. Russians called the Grant a coffin for seven brothers.

Intereresting that our current outlook is different. Seems like now we try to have fewer of the most technologically advanced tanks instead of a lot of less advanced ones.

Did we just hijack this thread? Sorry. ;) Thanks to everybody who posted the HK M4 pictures - very interesting!

hank

[MolliG]

They generally were unimpressed, in particular they did not like the rubber tracks and their susceptibility to catch on fire. Russians called the Grant a coffin for seven brothers.

The Sherman also had the nickname of 'Ronson', after the cigarette lighter that had the advertising slogan 'Lights First Time', due to the tendency of the ammunition to catch fire when the tank was hit. The Germans also gave them the nickname 'Tommy Cookers'... Well according to this book infront of me...

:)

[maw]

They generally were unimpressed, in particular they did not like the rubber tracks and their susceptibility to catch on fire. Russians called the Grant a coffin for seven brothers.

The Sherman also had the nickname of 'Ronson', after the cigarette lighter that had the advertising slogan 'Lights First Time', due to the tendency of the ammunition to catch fire when the tank was hit. The Germans also gave them the nickname 'Tommy Cookers'... Well according to this book infront of me...

:)

i think the fact that they were gas powered didn't help. the sherman's would burn when hit, while the deisel powered tigers would just smoulder.

[Uninen]

damn airsofters.


HuH? :)

Didnt seem like that to me.. ;)

[REMOV]

http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-1.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-2.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-3.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-4.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-5.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-6.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-7.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-8.jpg
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/SS04/HKM4-9.jpg

[Durandal]

REMOV

Another great post. It's nice seeing the bolt carrier assembly...

[Delta Niner]

Hey trust me I have great respect for European weapon makers I was just messin around!

And about the best weapons makers?
Maybe ww1 but not ww2,
m1 vr's Muaser?
p51 v ME?
Not everything fella!
Don't wanna talk you americans down, but German stuff was better on almost all fronts...

-The German MG42 was basically the best MG of the war
-The German STG44...well, I don't need to explain that one eh?
-The Me262... now that's what you call 'a revolutionary fighter'.
-Should I even start with tanks?
;)

You could also add the 88mm gun, I think I read from somewhere that it could be both utilized as an anti-tank and anti-aircraft.

[rob]

imo the m1 was the best rifle or long arm of the war. they modified it a little and and got the m14 and that is still used by elite units today.

the tanks where better that is hands down except for one thing ease of production, germans had a hell of a time making their tanks and the russian and american tanks where easier to make so there where more of them. it was a very important flaw with the german tank. but one on one they kicked a lot of ass.

[FallenAngel]

German WW2 were superior to Allied aircraft. Had the Me262 gone into production in late '43 instead of late '44 when they were first designed as fighters, they would have given the numberically superior mustangs a run for their money. And that's not even mentioning the slaughter Russian pilots would recieve.

The K98 rifle was different from the M1 because the early German system was different from the American system. In the American system, each squad member was an offensive unit. The Germans however made the MG of their squad the offensive unit. The K98 was issued to troops who would support the flanks of the machine gun- being defensive in nature. Later in the war, German tactics changed a bit- thus the emergance of the MP/StG44.

German tanks were hands down superior to their allied counterparts. It was estimated that it took at least 5 Shermans to knock out a Panther and up to 10 to kill a Tiger. Hand the King Tigers in the Battle of the Bulge had enough fuel, it is quite possible that those behemoths (even by today's standards) would have decimated all in their path. The T-34's only saving grace was it's sloped armor although even with that many were lost.

P-51s attacked Me262s on final approach for landing, when the jet was almost stalling it was going so slow. Not exactly the best senario for comparison of combat capabilities. The Me162 Salamander was simple, cheap and highly manueverable. Had the Germans had enough time, these would have formed the bulk of the German fighter units. Such fighters would have control over even the Allied Jets at the time- Gloster Meteor and Bell P-59/P-80.

German aircraft (and most arms) production in the last year of the war actually INCREASED. The problem for the Germans was that they only had so many pilots and they had no gasoline for their machines of war.

In the end, I would say that generally, the Germans were beaten by superior quantity rather than quality.

[Jack Mehoff]

pretty rifles make me horny

[ogukuo72]

Perhaps this discussion should be taken up seperately under the history forum?

[Haiw]

Hey trust me I have great respect for European weapon makers I was just messin around!

And about the best weapons makers?
Maybe ww1 but not ww2,
m1 vr's Muaser?
p51 v ME?
Not everything fella!
Don't wanna talk you americans down, but German stuff was better on almost all fronts...

-The German MG42 was basically the best MG of the war
-The German STG44...well, I don't need to explain that one eh?
-The Me262... now that's what you call 'a revolutionary fighter'.
-Should I even start with tanks?
;)

You could also add the 88mm gun, I think I read from somewhere that it could be both utilized as an anti-tank and anti-aircraft.
Yup.... 88 was a mighty fine cannon. Only reason I didn't list it because I didn't feel like listing every superb weapon in use by the Germans...the list woulb become too long.

[Ian H]

It was actually designed as ananti-aircraft gun, I believe it was the appearance of the British Matilda, which was impervious to everything else the Germans had in 1940, that forced its use as an anti-tank weapon.
Corrections welcome.

[Haiw]

IIRC they just used it against tanks as an exception at first, when AA guns were attacked by tanks. When they saw the damage it could do they decided to take the 88 to another level.

[Uninen]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12926

Off you go.. ;)