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etlamatey
12-04-2005, 10:55 AM
Can someone tell me please...

1.
a. What percentage of India's armed forces bear the INSAS rifle?
b. Are there plans to completely phase out all other rifles and replace them with INSAS?
c. Do the plans for INSAS include paramilitary forces (CISF, BSF, RAF)?

2. I believe the standard small arm for Pakistani forces is the AK-47. If not, is Pakistan indigenously manufacturing rifles / does it have plans to introduce indigenously made standard rifles to its armed forces?

Thanks.

thatguy96
12-04-2005, 11:51 AM
Pakistan license produces the G3, which is also prevelant. I would think that the primary AK in Pakistan would be the Chinese Type 56/-1 too. The Indian armed forces use a number of AK type weapons.

theholeinthedonut
12-04-2005, 11:54 AM
Concerning No 2.

I know for sure that Pakistan is producing G-3's and Mp-5's under licence from HK. Both weapons are used by the Pakistani Armed Forces. I think the same thing is happening with the Kalashnikov, I'm not sure about it though.
Anyway in the autonomous tribal areas there are many small factories and workshops who produce copies of the AK.

Have a nice day.
Tom

etlamatey
12-04-2005, 12:21 PM
....The Indian armed forces use a number of AK type weapons.

Not so sure about that. I may be way wrong, but I dont recall seeing AK-type rifles with military/paramilitary forces anywhere in India except in Kashmir (where I assume they are using captured weapons). They mostly seem to be carrying INSAS or SLR-type rifles.

Thanks for the feedback about Pakistani MP5 and G3. I wonder if there is a army-wide policy shift in the Paki army to move to a single standard weapon? Also, does the Paki army issue any weapons which use the 5.56 NATO?

Dijital_Majik
12-04-2005, 12:51 PM
Not so sure about that. I may be way wrong, but I dont recall seeing AK-type rifles with military/paramilitary forces anywhere in India except in Kashmir (where I assume they are using captured weapons). They mostly seem to be carrying INSAS or SLR-type rifles.

Thanks for the feedback about Pakistani MP5 and G3. I wonder if there is a army-wide policy shift in the Paki army to move to a single standard weapon? Also, does the Paki army issue any weapons which use the 5.56 NATO?

AFAIK, Indian forces purchased a small number of AKs from Poland a long time ago. Perhaps another member can shed some light on this?

As for 5.56 NATO, the Pak Army uses the Steyr Aug, and it's use is becoming more and more widespread.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Dijital_Majik/ssgcopter.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Dijital_Majik/15227c96.jpg

I also know that Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF) in Wah produce a copy of the FN P90:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Dijital_Majik/ac190dd9.jpg

rajkhalsa
12-04-2005, 01:39 PM
INSAS is used by front line/combat Indian troops, including in the paramil and police forces. Production has pretty much reached the point now where all the older AKs and other SLRs have been replaced in them.

However, paramil troops in COIN ops also use the A-7, a licensed produced AK-47 variant, as its been found to be very rugged and useful in close range but intense firefights with terrorists. It's less accurate and shorter ranged than the INSAS, however, so the two have been found to complement each other nicely. 2nd/3rd line troops get the former front line hand-me-downs.

Here are the various types of guns produced for paramilitary troops and police by OFB
http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/6695/guns3rr.jpg

AFAIK the Steyr is only used by some of Pakistan's special forces, like the SSG pictured above. They also have access to H&K submachine guns as well? The Chinese AK family clones are their standard battle rifles

jwillmoore
12-04-2005, 02:10 PM
I hope no one is confusing India with Pakistan. There isn't much if any cooperation between these 2 countries.

Apparently Pakistan is manufacturing afordable arms for both the USA and European countries for use by their protected governments. The US is buying from Pakistan to supply the Iraki and Afgan forces; and the Europeans are buying for their formal colonies in Africa.

Does that make you wonder why we have more wars in that region and why we have no Jobs? Even our governments is exporting our jobs.

Can we buy Paki made firearms in the US or Canada?

Dijital_Majik
12-04-2005, 02:22 PM
SSG are not the only ones using the Aug, as these chaps are most certainly not HSLD:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Dijital_Majik/pakistanreporter.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Dijital_Majik/steyr1.jpg

The G3 by far outnumbers the AK (or Type 56), and is the closest to the standard battle rifle of the Pak Army. AKs and Type 56s are still very common though, as is the MP5.

etlamatey
12-04-2005, 02:30 PM
INSAS is used by front line/combat Indian troops, including in the paramil and police forces....

Thank you rajkhalsa and others. Do you have a definite figure as to what percent of Indian armed forces still bear older guns (SLRs etc)? I ask this because inspite of hearing now and again that India has moved significantly towards standardizing its small arms sytem towards the 5.56 mm NATO INSAS, one still sees a lot of pictures in news reports with soldiers/para bearing different guns (apart from the AK variant you mentioned).

Also, does anyone know if Pakistan is making any policy shift towards a standardized small arms system?

etlamatey
12-04-2005, 05:07 PM
What gun is it, the one third from left?, the one next to the AK-type?



http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/6695/guns3rr.jpg

TacoDelRio
12-04-2005, 05:54 PM
What, the Mossberg shotgun?

I like how they have their fingers around the trigger.

Tony Williams
12-04-2005, 10:23 PM
The Indian Army has also ordered a quantity of Israeli Tavor 5.56mm bullpups, for use by special forces I believe.

The INSAS came in for some criticism a few months ago, in the hands of Nepalese (?) soldiers. Severe overheating problems in intense combat, or something. Anyone know if those complaints have been followed up?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

taiaha
12-04-2005, 11:13 PM
Whoa, the Indian army is using the Negev?

rajkhalsa
12-04-2005, 11:33 PM
Hi

There was a long thread on the INSAS (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39566) a couple months back. Answers all the questions asked here, and more on the subject, including comments by ex-IA officer lemontree, who has used the INSAS in combat

The the complaints by the Nepalese army despite initial reporting later turned out more to be more a lack of training than any mechanical difficulty. There was lengthy thread on that here too, iirc

rajkhalsa
12-04-2005, 11:44 PM
What gun is it, the one third from left?, the one next to the AK-type?Here is hte caption to the picture, taken at defexpo 04. Sorry for not including it earlier

"The Ordnance Factory Board of India's selection of weaponry including the 5.56 mm INSAS LMG, 9 mm Carbine (with Silencer), 7.62 mm 1A1 Rifle for defense and .315 '' Sporting rifle, 12 bore pump action Shotgun for civilian applications."

It doesn't show all INSAS variants:
http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9490/insas29oe.jpg

http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9612/image0508ld.jpg

etlamatey
12-05-2005, 03:02 AM
appreciate it

brigadeotg
12-05-2005, 01:59 PM
Can someone tell me please...

1.
a. What percentage of India's armed forces bear the INSAS rifle?
b. Are there plans to completely phase out all other rifles and replace them with INSAS?
c. Do the plans for INSAS include paramilitary forces (CISF, BSF, RAF)?


1a. Well, no percentages available. The Indian Army has been equipped with INSAS...completely AFAIK. The army also uses a number of sterlings which were supposed to be replaced with the INSAS carbines. But these are supposedly facing problems. Not sure what they will be replaced with yet..

1b. Yes, as far as the standard weapon is concerned only. So most regular infantry will use INSAS or have already been equipped with INSAS. However specialized units will use whatever they feel is necessary for them E.g. COIN troops use the Ak's along with INSAS, CT units will use MP-5's, Army SF are being equipped with Tavor's( For 5 bns about 3500-4000) etc..

1c. Paramils are normally a level below the army. But para-mils operating in insurgency ****e and high risk areas are being equipped the same way as the army. So you will see BSF/CRPF/Assam Rifles/ITBP/SFF/SSB etc operating at the line of control along the Pakistan border, Kashmir and the north-east equipped with INSAS. Para-mils in other areas use a combination of INSAS and the older FAL's. Ultimately I foresee all para-mils using INSAS as well with FAL's going to the police forces. Currently the police equipment available is antiquated and laughable.

Chulo
03-07-2006, 09:20 PM
Not so sure about that. I may be way wrong, but I dont recall seeing AK-type rifles with military/paramilitary forces anywhere in India except in Kashmir (where I assume they are using captured weapons). They mostly seem to be carrying INSAS or SLR-type rifles.

Thanks for the feedback about Pakistani MP5 and G3. I wonder if there is a army-wide policy shift in the Paki army to move to a single standard weapon? Also, does the Paki army issue any weapons which use the 5.56 NATO?
i have been up in the north east region where there are lots of troops deployed.. and i have seen a mix of ak-47s AKMs and INSAS as the main weapon for most of them. Granted there they are also mixed troops <BSF, Armed Police, Army and Rifles>

haze99
03-10-2006, 04:49 PM
All correct posts! The Indian's began with British weapons, until they manufactured their own! (L-1A1, L-2A3 so forth) Some foreign weapons imported for speicalized units. (UZI, AUG, so forth)
Pakistan (once a part of India) also would start out with UK weapons. Later, they moved to the H&K series. G-3, MP-5, & MG-3. *Of course, some units use the SKS, others the PRC Type-56.
Right now (as of the posting of this thread,) the Indian's are in transition.

Both Indian and Pakistani weapons are of the NATO calibers. So you could use Paki 7.62x51mm in your M-14. Or Indian 5.56x39mm in your M-4A1 carbine!

India did import a sizable quanity of Romanian Model-1990's. (around 1995 or so) Although, I have seen some Indian troops with Czechoslovakian Vz-58V, USSR AKM or AKMS, Bulgarian AR-M1 (AK-47) and even East German
MpikMS-72 (AKMS)
Some Pakistani units also use the PRC Type-56 and/or USSR AKM & AKMS. I don't think these were imported though? Most would come from the USSR war in Afghanistan. (Which Pakistan was a middle-man for a flow of PRC arms to the Afghans during the 1980's!)

I am not aware of Pakistan Ordnance manufacturing a Kalashnikov model, nor the 7.62x39mm round?

haze99
03-10-2006, 04:49 PM
All correct posts! The Indian's began with British weapons, until they manufactured their own! (L-1A1, L-2A3 so forth) Some foreign weapons imported for speicalized units. (UZI, AUG, so forth)
Pakistan (once a part of India) also would start out with UK weapons. Later, they moved to the H&K series. G-3, MP-5, & MG-3. *Of course, some units use the SKS, others the PRC Type-56.
Right now (as of the posting of this thread,) the Indian's are in transition.

Both Indian and Pakistani weapons are of the NATO calibers. So you could use Paki 7.62x51mm in your M-14. Or Indian 5.56x39mm in your M-4A1 carbine!

India did import a sizable quanity of Romanian Model-1990's. (around 1995 or so) Although, I have seen some Indian troops with Czechoslovakian Vz-58V, USSR AKM or AKMS, Bulgarian AR-M1 (AK-47) and even East German
MpikMS-72 (AKMS)
Some Pakistani units also use the PRC Type-56 and/or USSR AKM & AKMS. I don't think these were imported though? Most would come from the USSR war in Afghanistan. (Which Pakistan was a middle-man for a flow of PRC arms to the Afghans during the 1980's!)

I am not aware of Pakistan Ordnance manufacturing a Kalashnikov model, nor the 7.62x39mm round?