Kerry wanted all US troops under UN control

[Sixgun Symphony]

Old Crimson Interview Reveals A More Radical John Kerry
By ZACHARY M. SEWARD
Crimson Staff Writer


Ten months after returning home from Vietnam, a young John Kerry strolled into the offices of The Harvard Crimson on Feb. 13, 1970 as an obscure underdog in the Democratic Congressional primary.
The decorated veteran, honorably discharged after a tour of duty in the Mekong Delta, spoke in fierce terms during his daylong interview with The Crimson’s Samuel Z. Goldhaber ’72.

But almost 34 years later, Kerry’s remarks on American military and intelligence operations vastly diverge from opinions expressed by the present-day Sen. John F. Kerry, D.-Mass., the leading candidate in the Democratic primary for president.


“I’m an internationalist,” Kerry told The Crimson in 1970. “I’d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations.”

Kerry said he wanted “to almost eliminate CIA activity. The CIA is fighting its own war in Laos and nobody seems to care.”

The CIA is fighting its own war in Laos and nobody seems to care.”

http://www.thecrimson.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=357339

[Trident-za]

This presumably is trying to make a point? The UN in 1970 and the UN now are very different organisations.... also, what he thought and said 33 years ago don't necessarily have a damn thing to do with what he says and does now.

How long ago was Bush an alcoholic? You aren't seriously trying to imply that things he said or did then define him as a man now?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I think someones anti-kerry :lol:

Either way opinions change over time and this probably wouldnt effect anything in the elections...just more dirt dug up by the competition.

[Tane Angle]

Here's my question: What does Kerry think today? I know my opinios have changed a lot in the past 30 years. I'd be a bit worried about any politician who didn't change their views every few decades to keep up with the times.

Excellent point, Trident-za. Bush was once a fall down drunk and a cocaine user. I doubt that he is today. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Pille1234]

Well, now where the democrats have chosen a dangerous candidate, all the Bushists get panic and start beating everything they find, no matter how penurious it is. How good that there are no records of Bush from that time, because he only could speak with a slur.

[Old300]

What Kerry did 34 years ago will soon be irrelevant:

www.drudgereport.com

His only selling point was "electability" and that's gone now.

Time to familiarize ourselves with one John Edwards (and maybe a lady named Hilary).

[Sixgun Symphony]

I think someones anti-kerry :lol:

Either way opinions change over time and this probably wouldnt effect anything in the elections...just more dirt dug up by the competition.

Actually, I am anti-UN, anti-socialists, and against the internationalists.

Kerry, a wealthy plutocrat, is ideologically one of the socialist international. That is why so many foriegn socialists here are defending him.

Thirty years ago? Times change? Look at his record, the guy has a pink voting record. A socialist swine.

[Trident-za]

Im a "foreign socialist"? rofl rofl rofl

You have somehow tried to avoid arguing any of the issues discussed above by labelling us (I am at least foreign, unlike some who posted above me). Amazing.....

Out of curiousity - do you consider Bush a "wealthy plutocrat"? If not, why not? (please actually answer the question, don't just call me a socialist)

[Tane Angle]

We die together as one species. We can't survive divided. There's simply no way to do it. It's cost prohibitive, and there are some dang smart folks around the world. Take IIT, India's prime tech school that rivals MIT and Caltech. Without them, can we make it? And what about the costs of surviving?

I'm talking about space.

Will anti-internationalists be willing to work with others on projects to Mars, the Kuiper Belt, the Jovian moon Europa, or to the Oort Cloud eventually? All of these projects are necessary for our survival.

I very much want my country, the United States of America, to continue. That is a major reason why I was (and am, depending on who you ask) a professional soldier. I also very much want my species, homo sapiens sapiens, to continue, to survive. If we wait until things get real bad with this, then it is too late. I realize the insufficiencies of my nation, and am hopeful of the idea that many nations can work together to ensure our mutual survival. I've read and studied enough hard science to be very aware of our interdependence and to think of myself not just as an American, but as a human.

We are at a threshhold in human history like none humans have ever seen before. There have been wars where a nation's survival, or a people's survival, have been threatened. But today, this year, this decade, this century, this is the point in history where the survival as a species is so very uncertain. And unlike the dodos and the roughly 10,000 species a year, we can do something about it. We need to conciously make a decision to act as a species, as a world, but it can be done. I just hope and pray that it will.

At this threshhold, there is so much opportunity for good, for amazing things to happen; awesome and wonderful things in the strictest senses of the words-full of awe and wonder. The Muslims put zero into common use. Central Americans studied the stars, as did the ancient Chinese, if I'm not mistaken. The list goes on and on. I'm willing to put my hand out to the Muslims, to the Central Americans, to the Chinese, to everyone, if that's what it will take for our species to survive. Let us be Machiavellian-ruthless, taking what means to our ends are necessary-in ensuring our species survives. We can afford to do no less.

So will the conservatives meet my hand? Or should we, as a nation and a people, take the self-concerned isolationist route which will still not save us?

I keep reediting this and adding to it, don't I? I should probably just rewrite it as one piece, maybe. Just wondering, and just some food for thought if anyone wants it. Have a good one, and as always, just some thoughts...

[Jack Mehoff]

I'm interest in Kerry's foreign policy because i never heard of it.

[Trident-za]

I have to admit I know nothing about his foreign policy - but then again, I don't know Bush's either.

I suspect, though, that people like Sixgun would vote for any candidate who :
-is paleo-conservative
-promised to be involved in at least 1 war a year while in power.

Anything else is irrelevent - as long as the US army gets to kick somebodies butt, all is good. Who needs a policy, foreign or otherwise??

I realize that most republicans aren't like that - but some people on this forum sure act that way.

[ShadowNeo]

One day we're going to all unite with a common goal, for that will be the pinnacle of humanity. It is not a question of if, but when. Isolationists can try to impede the progress we make towards this goal, but it is inevitable.

Resistance is futile! http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:xPA9M7Bjh1MJ:www.owendot.com/Lynne/smileys/borgsmiley.gif

[XASA]

It's amazing how low folks will go to win an election. Kerry has been in public office for years without a hint of scandal. Now that he is the front runner, he is being attacked from all angles. What is interesting is how many of the folks who are dogging him on this forum have just recently joined and have started a full-blown anti-Kerry campaign here as soon as he became a front runner as if militaryphotos.net has electoral votes. It would be funny if their campaign to bring Kerry down wasn't so pathetically dirty and amatuerish. Reeks of desperation on the part of Bush supporters. Like Trident-za posted, there isn't a discussion of his policies, just denigration of his character.

Also, the fact that Bush is the grandson of two U.S. Senators who became wealthy during their terms and the son of a President makes him probably more of a plutocrat than anyone who ever held the office.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Out of curiousity - do you consider Bush a "wealthy plutocrat"?


Yes, he is a wealthy plutocrat. His ideology is one of neo-conservatism. Lets say international capitalist rather than international socialist.

Someone made a comment about my supporting wars and that person does not know what they are talking about. I only support those wars that are fought in our national interests. I opposed Bill Clinton for getting US involved in the Balkans war. It was simply not our war and it was fought to give the United Nations some political power and to give a new role to NATO, an organization that should have been dissolved after the end of the Cold War.

BTW, some here have proved my point about what the plans are of the internationalists.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Actually, I am anti-UN, anti-socialists, and against the internationalists.

Kerry, a wealthy plutocrat, is ideologically one of the socialist international. That is why so many foriegn socialists here are defending him.

In no way I'm defending the guy, but this election has had so much mud/dirt slinging its almost turning into the fights in Asain parliments ;)
Anything to try to make the other look bad.....

p.s. I'm not a foriegn socialist I live about 3 hours away from you ;)

[Sixgun Symphony]

You in Vancouver B.C.? Beautiful city! :)

Much of Western Washington used to be really nice, but we got "Californicated" back in the late 1980's. Too much population and growth, yuck!

You are right about the mudslinging. I think it was Von Clausewitz who said that politics is war. We know the old saying that all is fair in love and war.

[Tane Angle]

So is that why we went into the Balkans? All this time I was thinking it was to stop genocide. One pile of rotting bodies of innocent civilians was enough to convince me that it was the right move going in there. Same elsewhere.

And aye, have some proved the intentions of the internationalists? On this thread? I'm trying to find that line. Or are you referring to my own post? The intention of internationalists to live? A very difficult to understand aspiration, it is.

Have a good one, and as always, just some thoughts...

PS:
A very difficult to understand aspiration, it is. Did I just talk like Yoda? Oh jeez, I'm waiting for California Joe and everyone else to start having fun with that. :D

[Sixgun Symphony]

The claims of genocide in the Balkans were largely exagerrated to bring in support for the president's policies. There have been some mass graves found, but those cadavers were men of fighting age. The ethnic cleansing was more like an eviction, a mass deportation.

Funny, how the same people who rushed into the Balkans war have ignored the real genocide against the Kurds in Iraq. The mass graves found in Iraq contain women and children as well as men.

[Trident-za]

The claims of genocide in the Balkans were largely exagerrated to bring in support for the president's policies.

A bit like the WMD issue, then? And where are you getting your info about the genocide thing being exaggerated? There are several forum members who served there.... looking forward to their thoughts on this

[Royal]

The claims of genocide in the Balkans were largely exagerrated to bring in support for the president's policies. There have been some mass graves found, but those cadavers were men of fighting age. The ethnic cleansing was more like an eviction, a mass deportation.

Funny, how the same people who rushed into the Balkans war have ignored the real genocide against the Kurds in Iraq. The mass graves found in Iraq contain women and children as well as men.

Ever been at the exhumation of a mass grave - seen the corpses of women cradling little kids? Babies head shot?

I have.

Both in Kurdistan in '91 and in the Balkans, more times than I care to remember.

[Trident-za]

Thanks, Royal.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I have not seen the women and children exhumed from the mass graves in the Balkans. The reports I have seen have only shown the bodies of men being exhumed.

Still, It is a war in your backyard and not ours. That makes it your war to fight.

If stopping genocide was the reason to go to war, then you should be more supportive of the US invasion of Iraq. You said so yourself that you saw the mass graves in Iraq.

True, it is not why we are there, but it is a desirable side benefit, no?

[Argyll]

Out of curiousity - do you consider Bush a "wealthy plutocrat"?


Yes, he is a wealthy plutocrat. His ideology is one of neo-conservatism. Lets say international capitalist rather than international socialist.

Someone made a comment about my supporting wars and that person does not know what they are talking about. I only support those wars that are fought in our national interests. I opposed Bill Clinton for getting US involved in the Balkans war. It was simply not our war and it was fought to give the United Nations some political power and to give a new role to NATO, an organization that should have been dissolved after the end of the Cold War.

BTW, some here have proved my point about what the plans are of the internationalists.

But Grenada,Haiti,Somalia,Latin America,Lebanon,Afghanistan and Iraq were all in the US Interests?.............please explain all these actions?
You could turn a blind eye to the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans,but not to Saddam Husseins............what a hypocrite!!

[Argyll]

I have not seen the women and children exhumed from the mass graves in the Balkans. The reports I have seen have only shown the bodies of men being exhumed.

Still, It is a war in your backyard and not ours. That makes it your war to fight.


oh right you fuc*ing clown Iraq is in your back Yard.........no wonder Geography is not your strong point.


STOP TROLLING THESE FORUMS

[Sixgun Symphony]

My point was that you people are the hypocrites for ignoring Saddam's genocidal war on the Kurds and the Shiite muslim marsh people. You opposed the US invasion of Iraq which has put an end to Saddam's genocidal regime. So your claims of stopping genocide as foriegn policy rings hollow.

If stopping genocide were the real reason for going into the Balkans (it was not, it was merely a justification put out for consumption by the masses) then we should have toppled Saddam's regime in Iraq a decade ago. We would also have gone to Rwanda and other parts of Africa too if stopping genocide really a part of our foreign policy.

No GI's, nor British, nor French went into Rwanda. Course the French have gone in to prop up a few regimes in their former African colonies. Their reasons are likely economic self interests, there may still be alot of trade between France and her former colonies.

Argyll, Most of those other battlefields you mentioned were of the Cold War, which was really WWIII and it was in our national interests to win that global conflict.
Afghanistan? Iraq? We were attacked by Islamic terrorists you know. We are making war on the terrorists and the oriental despots that support them. Also, I did not claim Iraq was in our backyard. My claim is that we have a vital national interest in being there.
You might feel different about the Iraq war if it were London that had been attacked rather than New York City.

The Balkans hold nothing for US national interests. If anything, we fought against our interests by helping the muslims to establish a new Islamic state in Europe. Now Al Qaida and other Islamic terrorists have a base to attack US.

[Trident-za]

(I've always wanted to say this)

Go on Argyll - don't hold back - tell us how you really feel :)

In all seriousness - you have the habit, mate, of cutting through the BS.... I enjoy your posts.

[Chris1]

Obviously an expert on the Balkans aren't ya SS?


STOP TROLLING THESE FORUMS

[Sixgun Symphony]

More like just wanting to stay out of the Balkans. It is your backyard. You Europeans should be fighting your own wars.

[Chris1]

Yep, just as you Americans should be fighting your own
oh wait
http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/casualties.htm

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yep, just as you Americans should be fighting your own
oh wait
http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/casualties.htm

If I were in charge of US foriegn policy, then there would not be any kind of a "multilateral" front. The war really would have been a unilateral action.

Unfortunately the Neo-Conservatives are internationalists just like the liberals. So now you guys get dragged into it too.

The only difference between the Neo-Cons and the liberals on foriegn policy is that a liberal president would put our troops in the UN blue beret uniform. So that makes the Neo-Cons a bit less of a problem that then liberals.

[Tane Angle]

The claims of genocide in the Balkans were largely exagerrated to bring in support for the president's policies. There have been some mass graves found, but those cadavers were men of fighting age. The ethnic cleansing was more like an eviction, a mass deportation.

Funny, how the same people who rushed into the Balkans war have ignored the real genocide against the Kurds in Iraq. The mass graves found in Iraq contain women and children as well as men.

Excuse me? Are you telling me what I saw and did not see? Unless all the Bosnian combatants were either three feet tall or definitely female or had 70 year old hip bones, then I think we're talking about two different conflicts here. I saw the bodies with my own eyes. And I saw them in Kosovo. And Somalia. And Kurdistan. Gencoide is genocide.

You're dang right we should have pressed into Iraq in 1991. But because we didn't there, you don't care about the Balkans? I urge zero tolerance of any genocide. We can't change the past ones, but we can vindicate the dead by not repeating our mistake of watching idly. And I support going into Africa more too. Under President Bush's watch, nearly 4 million civilians were slaughtered in genocide, not in crossfires, in the Congo. Iraq was none of our business, I take it, then? Or the first Gulf War? Kuwait isn't in our backyard, oh well. Britain was an ocean away, why care about helping them in WWII? Washington is a state on the opposite side of the country from New York, why should New Yorkers care about helping people from Washington?

Mutual defense and benefit, no? It's the same deal around the world. If Country X was committing genocide against Americans, then I would sure hope that the Europeans, including the Bosnians, would come help us out. It works both ways. We do for them, maybe they will do for us someday.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Sixgun Symphony]

I have not seen mass graves filled with women and children in the Balkans. I have only seen these mass graves filled with men. If you have other information, then it is news to me.

My point is that stopping genocide is not the reason why we went into the Balkans. That is just misinformation for the masses. If stopping genocide really on anyone's foriengn policy, then US forces would have stayed in southeast Asia to stop Pol Pot, we would have gone into Rwanda, we would have toppled Saddam a decade ago.

No, I don't believe the leaders who say we were in the Balkans to stop genocide. They are lying and I think there are other reasons why we were there.

BTW, The European powers did not need our help to invade the Balkans. France alone could have taken Serbia. So let the Europeans sort out their problems.

[Argyll]

My point was that you people are the hypocrites for ignoring Saddam's genocidal war on the Kurds and the Shiite muslim marsh people. You opposed the US invasion of Iraq which has put an end to Saddam's genocidal regime. So your claims of stopping genocide as foriegn policy rings hollow.

If stopping genocide were the real reason for going into the Balkans (it was not, it was merely a justification put out for consumption by the masses) then we should have toppled Saddam's regime in Iraq a decade ago. We would also have gone to Rwanda and other parts of Africa too if stopping genocide really a part of our foreign policy.

No GI's, nor British, nor French went into Rwanda. Course the French have gone in to prop up a few regimes in their former African colonies. Their reasons are likely economic self interests, there may still be alot of trade between France and her former colonies.

Argyll, Most of those other battlefields you mentioned were of the Cold War, which was really WWIII and it was in our national interests to win that global conflict.
Afghanistan? Iraq? We were attacked by Islamic terrorists you know. We are making war on the terrorists and the oriental despots that support them. Also, I did not claim Iraq was in our backyard. My claim is that we have a vital national interest in being there.
You might feel different about the Iraq war if it were London that had been attacked rather than New York City.

The Balkans hold nothing for US national interests. If anything, we fought against our interests by helping the muslims to establish a new Islamic state in Europe. Now Al Qaida and other Islamic terrorists have a base to attack US.


Hey numbnuts it was your Freakin President who told the Kurds and the Shia's to rise up,and they would be supported,and you left them helpless you piece of ****.,and also prior to GW 1 were you also not ignoring the same genocide

Fuc* you asshole How manty times has Mainland UK been bombed by terrorists,including London.............get yer head out yer arse and do some research before you post ****e .............You're an insult to the descent Americans on these forums,you're a Racist scumbag :fork:

Who opposed the Invasion of Iraq?..........I didn't,that is your assumption again pinhead

Cold war battles my arse,do some research instead of leaving your asshole and brains in the wrong modes!

[Tane Angle]

I don't care about motives, I care about results. But what were the alterior motives for going into Bosnia? Or Somalia? The lack of natural resources is one of the reasons those areas are so volatile. They were pure wars, so far as I can tell. And I did support going into Rwanda. We didn't but if I recall that was because it was argued against as "not in our backyard."

And Argyll is right. How was Grenada a Cold War battle? No one I've met has figured out any real reason for going in there except to show off. Naturally, Lebanon was ignored.

[Chris1]

I have not seen mass graves filled with women and children in the Balkans. I have only seen these mass graves filled with men.

If you have other information, then it is news to me.

Where exactly did you 'see' these mass graves?
Crni Vrh or Fox news?
**** it, the endless requests for 'Delta gear' and reproduction of endless idiotic articles I can ignore, this **** simply makes it not worth reading here anymore.
I'm off.

[Trident-za]

Sixgun:


You opposed the US invasion of Iraq which has put an end to Saddam's genocidal regime

You're kidding, right? I've just checked all the people who have replied on this thread - there are a few names I'm not familiar with, but I'd say that at least 95% of the responses have been from people who supported the removal of Saddam. However, some (not all) have got a bit pissed off at the lies and deceit involved.... Getting tired of lies from leaders makes you a "pinko/communist/liberal"?

And.... in the same breath that you rant about people supposedly being anti the stopping of Saddam's regime of genocide, you complain about the US being involved in stopping genocide in the Balkans? The logic escapes me.....

[Tane Angle]

By the way, you never answered about the space program.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Argyll,

Really we had no reason to care about Saddam taking Kuwait except that he was getting too powerful and thus becoming a threat to a particular ally of ours in the region. An ally with a very strong lobby in congress.

Yes, you are correct about the US abandonment of the Kurds and Shiia at the end of the Gulf War. Too many of our allies, namely the Turks who did not want a Kurdistan next door so we bowed out rather than taking out Saddam at the end of the war.

There has been alot of opposition from you and others here to the US war on Iraq. We deposed a genocidal tyrant and you people have been very outspoken about your opposition to that.

Bombings in London? That has been the Irish, a different war. We could invite some Irish here to talk about the 800 years of English occupation on their land.

BTW, you seemed to have missed out on the Cold War in the latter half of the twentieth century. The US and USSR used surrogates to fight each other in the 3rd World. Maybe you ought to read about it sometime.

[Argyll]

Argyll,

Really we had no reason to care about Saddam taking Kuwait except that he was getting too powerful and thus becoming a threat to a particular ally of ours in the region.

Despite the fact that Madeline Albright was told of the impending invasion?

Yes, you are correct about the US abandonment of the Kurds and Shiia at the end of the Gulf War. Too many of our allies, namely the Turks who did not want a Kurdistan next door so we bowed out rather than taking out Saddam at the end of the war.

You mean you turned a blind eye like the rest of the world?

There has been alot of opposition from you and others here to the US war on Iraq. We deposed a genocidal tyrant and you people have been very outspoken about your opposition to that.

Wrong I was never against the war right from the start,I supported it and still do,what I do not support is the lies my Government told to get that war in the 1st place,and sisnce when the fuc* has it been your war?There was a coalition incase you had forgotten.Genocidal tyrant.........oh just like Slobodan Milosevich ;)
Bombings in London? That has been the Irish, a different war. We could invite some Irish here to talk about the 800 years of English occupation on their land.



It was still terrorism !!!!!!

You think only AQ are terrorists these days,that just shows you how ignorant you are

Oh and we could get some Native Americans here to tell us how the white man raped the land and people and massacred them in their thousands,300 years ago

[Trident-za]

There has been alot of opposition from you and others here to the US war on Iraq.... you people have been very outspoken about your opposition to that

Have you read the last 50 or so pages of threads on this forum? Many of the people you claim are supposedly outspoken about their opposition actually supported/support the war. A good number of them have actively been involved in the fight against terrorism, even long before 9/11. People like Royal, Argyll, Tane etc (I know I've left out names, sorry) have done more to protect "capatilism and democracy and freedom" than you ever will.

BTW... what did you do in the navy? I only ask because, technically, a cook or a storeman could claim to have done his duty, so to speak..... I find your opinions hard to reconcile with the idea of "the best trained military on earth".

P.S. I should say that the military depends on cooks, storemen etc... but it irritates me when these guys claim to have "done their time" in the military. Vital jobs, yes. Justification for opinions on war and combat - not in my book. If Sixgun did some sort of active combat type duty, fine.....

[Sixgun Symphony]

Sixgun:


You opposed the US invasion of Iraq which has put an end to Saddam's genocidal regime

You're kidding, right? I've just checked all the people who have replied on this thread - there are a few names I'm not familiar with, but I'd say that at least 95% of the responses have been from people who supported the removal of Saddam. However, some (not all) have got a bit pissed off at the lies and deceit involved.... Getting tired of lies from leaders makes you a "pinko/communist/liberal"?

And.... in the same breath that you rant about people supposedly being anti the stopping of Saddam's regime of genocide, you complain about the US being involved in stopping genocide in the Balkans? The logic escapes me.....


The overwhelming majority of Europeans are pinko socialists who oppose the US war on Saddam Hussien's Iraq. Many here have been bashing US on the war. Now if some of these Euros have been on our side, then it is a surprise to me.

I am opposed to the US involvement in the Balkans. The information I had is that the claims of genocide were exagerrated to bring public support for the war on Serbia. The bodies that I have seen exhumed from the mass graves were men who were of fighting age. I had not seen, and have yet to see, any of these mass graves filled with women and children.

I still don't think it was a good idea to establish a new Islamic state in Bosnia. It is just a new base for the Islamic Jihadis in the clash of civilizations. Mass deportations of muslims to Asia-Minor and North Africa would be desirable.

My point about genocide is that I have seen alot of concern from everyone for the alleged genocide in the Balkan wars, but the peaceniks have ignored the very real genocide in Iraq. If they oppose the US war on Saddam Hussien's regime in Iraq, then they are supporting the genocide in Iraq. So I don't trust them to tell the truth about the Balkans adventure they dragged US into during the 1990's.

[Argyll]

Maybe he was the soapdish ? ;)

[11F5S]

[ The overwhelming majority of Europeans are pinko socialists who oppose the US war on Saddam Hussien's Iraq. Many here have been bashing US on the war. Now if some of these Euros have been on our side, then it is a surprise to me.


You label everyone who doesn't agree with you a "pinko" so I'm going to put you in the pidgeon hole which I think you fit in.....the one labeled "Jackasses and Other Idiots".

[Argyll]

Sixgun:


You opposed the US invasion of Iraq which has put an end to Saddam's genocidal regime

You're kidding, right? I've just checked all the people who have replied on this thread - there are a few names I'm not familiar with, but I'd say that at least 95% of the responses have been from people who supported the removal of Saddam. However, some (not all) have got a bit pissed off at the lies and deceit involved.... Getting tired of lies from leaders makes you a "pinko/communist/liberal"?

And.... in the same breath that you rant about people supposedly being anti the stopping of Saddam's regime of genocide, you complain about the US being involved in stopping genocide in the Balkans? The logic escapes me.....


The overwhelming majority of Europeans are pinko socialists who oppose the US war on Saddam Hussien's Iraq. Many here have been bashing US on the war. Now if some of these Euros have been on our side, then it is a surprise to me.

RACIST

I am opposed to the US involvement in the Balkans. The information I had is that the claims of genocide were exagerrated to bring public support for the war on Serbia. The bodies that I have seen exhumed from the mass graves were men who were of fighting age. I had not seen, and have yet to see, any of these mass graves filled with women and children.

Did you physically see these Graves with your own eyes?
Royal has,as has Tane,yet you still do not listen to what they say?
I have mates who fought in Bosnia in SF who told me of finding villagers slaughtered in front of their homes,men women and kids.
Genocide is genocide no matter where in the world it is,Bosnia,Iraq or Rwanda,add to that Somalia,and Sudan

I still don't think it was a good idea to establish a new Islamic state in Bosnia. It is just a new base for the Islamic Jihadis in the clash of civilizations. Mass deportations of muslims to Asia-Minor and North Africa would be desirable.

More RACIST comments,who said anything about creating a new Islamic state in Bosnia?I think if you do some research Kosovo has Muslim ties and has had for thousands of years

My point about genocide is that I have seen alot of concern from everyone for the alleged genocide in the Balkan wars, but the peaceniks have ignored the very real genocide in Iraq. If they oppose the US war on Saddam Hussien's regime in Iraq, then they are supporting the genocide in Iraq. So I don't trust them to tell the truth about the Balkans adventure they dragged US into during the 1990's.

How do we know these are not the same mass graves that just get filmed from a different angle just to give the coalition some more credability?

[Sixgun Symphony]

I was a Corpsman in the navy. Mostly orthopedics, I did my time in the service and moved on.

I have seen the Brits talk about Irish terrorism. But I get the impression that they don't want to be in on our war with Islamic terrorism. I don't blame them because it is not their war and they do have a large and growing Islamic population there in the UK. If this war on Islamic terrorism becomes a clash of civilizations, then it will really go bad for them as the large muslim population there will be a time bomb waiting to go off.

Actually it is a clash of civilizations, but things are just getting warm.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Argyll,

I have only your word to compare with what I have seen of the mass graves in the Balkans.

BTW, Islam is a religion, not a race. Nor was Islam there for thousands of years as you put it. Islam was brought in by the asiatic turks around 1389.

[NcDeuce]

And Kerry went to West Point, right? Fought with Omar Bradley and the likes, right? What a dumbass.

[Argyll]

I was a Corpsman in the navy. Mostly orthopedics, I did my time in the service and moved on.

I have seen the Brits talk about Irish terrorism. But I get the impression that they don't want to be in on our war with Islamic terrorism. I don't blame them because it is not their war and they do have a large and growing Islamic population there in the UK. This clash of civilizations can go really bad for them as the large muslim population there can be a time bomb waiting to go off.

And you don't have any Muslims in America ?
Have you listened to yourself,that's some shovel you got there coz the hole you're digging yourself is foking ginormous!
Irish/Islamic terrorism is still TERRORISM,it does not come in graded types.
Brits were right by your side in Afghanistan ,you need to get out of that cave you live in more and start reading or doing research,as I have not heard one single Brit here say that the war on terror was not in their Interests,or were not for it,I'd say 100% UK forum members back that war,again you are making assumptions without any substance to back up your claims

[Argyll]

Six Gun I think you're finished here once I pass your PM onto the moderators



Good bye......................loser

[Sixgun Symphony]

Six Gun I think you're finished here once I pass your PM onto the moderators



Good bye......................loser

yea, yea

you have been an asswipe and I could use even stronger words.

[Argyll]

Feel free,it's not like you know what your talking about anyway!

[Sixgun Symphony]

And you don't have any Muslims in America ?

Very few, not at all like Europe

Have you listened to yourself,that's some shovel you got there coz the hole you're digging yourself is foking ginormous!
Irish/Islamic terrorism is still TERRORISM,it does not come in graded types.

terrorism is a method of fighting a war.

Brits were right by your side in Afghanistan ,you need to get out of that cave you live in more and start reading or doing research,as I have not heard one single Brit here say that the war on terror was not in their Interests,or were not for it,I'd say 100% UK forum members back that war,again you are making assumptions without any substance to back up your claims.

Don't put words into my mouth. I did not say that British troops were not there.

I have read posts by Europeans bashing our war in the middle east. Maybe I should not have lumped the Brits in with the continentals?

[11F5S]

Why not post it for the rest of us to see?

[Sixgun Symphony]

Why not post it for the rest of us to see?

He called me a racist, I called him a ******-lover.

tit-for-tat

[Argyll]

I was a Corpsman in the navy. Mostly orthopedics, I did my time in the service and moved on.

I have seen the Brits talk about Irish terrorism. But I get the impression that they don't want to be in on our war with Islamic terrorism. I don't blame them because it is not their war and they do have a large and growing Islamic population there in the UK. This clash of civilizations can go really bad for them as the large muslim population there can be a time bomb waiting to go off.

And you don't have any Muslims in America ?

Very few, not at all like Europe

Have you listened to yourself,that's some shovel you got there coz the hole you're digging yourself is foking ginormous!
Irish/Islamic terrorism is still TERRORISM,it does not come in graded types.

terrorism is a method of fighting a war.

Brits were right by your side in Afghanistan ,you need to get out of that cave you live in more and start reading or doing research,as I have not heard one single Brit here say that the war on terror was not in their Interests,or were not for it,I'd say 100% UK forum members back that war,again you are making assumptions without any substance to back up your claims

Don't put words into my mouth. I did not say that British troops were not there.

I have read posts by Europeans bashing our war in the middle east. Maybe I should not have lumped the Brits in with the continentals?

I think you'll find most of the anti US stuff coming from Finland,I think you'll find most of these also come from Mustamoto,and no you should not have tarred Britain with the same brush

Terrorism

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

[NcDeuce]

Red font sucks.

[duck]

**** and flaming, the two main uses of the net. :D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

He called me a racist, I called him a ******-lover.tit-for-tat
Sixgun you have got some real problems take a break, I can now see where you are coming from with the N.B Forrest sig. :(

[Argyll]

Red font sucks.

So do prostitutes and vacum cleaners...........your point is?

[Roger Rabbit]

Hardly tit for tat. He calls you racist so you prove him right.


The overwhelming majority of Europeans are pinko socialists who oppose the US war on Saddam Hussien's Iraq. Many here have been bashing US on the war. Now if some of these Euros have been on our side, then it is a surprise to me.

I support the war in Iraq. Sometimes i find it difficult and i feel i should be doing something more pro-active but i'm not and until i sort myself out then thats unlikely to change.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Red font sucks. Hate also sucks.

[Sixgun Symphony]

He is hypersensitive about race so I wanted to push his buttons.

[Dalleer]

He called me a racist, I called him a ******-lover.

Hah haa, this topic is just one of those that are bound to cause a "Chobbamdog"-style "lame war"...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

He is hypersensitive about race so I wanted to push his buttons. I suppose you Klan guys are not so sensitive about race :roll:

[Royal]

He is hypersensitive about race so I wanted to push his buttons.

Argyll's a Jock, same as me (and a few others here). We may wear skirts, but racist we ain't.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I think you'll find most of the anti US stuff coming from Finland,I think you'll find most of these also come from Mustamoto,and no you should not have tarred Britain with the same brush

Terrorism

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


Then I was wrong to lump the Brits in with the Euro-fags. I apologize.

Terrorism as unlawful? I agree that it is a dishonorable means of waging war. But unlawful? Governments make laws and some governments support terrorism. That is the reason why we toppled the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, and one of the reasons why we finally toppled Saddam's regime in Iraq.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

He called me a racist, I called him a ni**er-lover.

tit-for-tat

Im sure Benibo and the other Africans/Americans on this board would love to have a chat with you about that one.

Terrorism is Terrorism

Genocide is Genocide (no matter who's on the other end)

Six Gun know your role dude, these guys were in the Balkans and Ireland. And because of the good job they did those places are no-longer hot spots for fighting anymore. These guys know what they are talking about, the only thing you've done is discredited yourself with the material that you've been posting.

[Argyll]

He is hypersensitive about race so I wanted to push his buttons.


I think it's you banging on about Islamic Fundamentialists,how wrong it was to have a new Islamic state in Bosnia,"Pinko" Europeans etc etc ,whose hypersensitive to race

Racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

Is this more Patriotic for you deuce?

[Sixgun Symphony]

My point stands that we were not in the Balkans to stop genocide. We were there to give NATO a new reason for existance in the post cold war era. We were there to put some authority into the UN. We were there to limit Russia's influence in the region.

If our foriegn policy was to stop genocide, then we would have stopped Pol Pot in Southeast Asia. We would have been in Rwanda and other parts of Africa. We would have deposed Saddam a decade ago.

No, I do not think we were in the Balkans war for the reasons stated by our leaders.

[Argyll]

I think you'll find most of the anti US stuff coming from Finland,I think you'll find most of these also come from Mustamoto,and no you should not have tarred Britain with the same brush

Terrorism

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


Then I was wrong to lump the Brits in with the Euro-fags. I apologize.

Terrorism as unlawful? I agree that it is a dishonorable means of waging war. But unlawful? Governments make laws and some governments support terrorism. That is the reason why we toppled the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, and one of the reasons why we finally toppled Saddam's regime in Iraq.


Thats a definition taken from a dictionary,off course it's unlawful,that's why it's a crime,look at Timothy Mac Veigh's case,nothing to do with religion or war,it was a crime,the deaths of those acts are unlawful deaths,which means Murder!

[Tane Angle]

Should we not be sensitive about race? Maybe some people missed this when I posted it only two days ago.


Hello all, how are you? Can we keep things civil please; I've been hearing that there were some problems with civility and tolerance. I can't tell people what to believe, but it isn't very civil to say hateful things to/about others. I've worked with a lot of people in my life, and nearly all have been real great folks, regardless of being Shi’a, Sunni, Druze, Hmong, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Jewish, any of a variety of Christian faiths, homo******, bi******, or hetero******, a prostitute or a professor. That’s just an example, too. And I've had life saved by a fair number of very diverse people, so using more tolerant terms is, if nothing else, a welcome and much-appreciated sign of respect to me. I wouldn't insult a stranger's mother, because that people owe their lives to their mothers. Same basic principle, no?

Let me say that again; I owe my life to some very fine Muslims. I'd be dead without them. That's the way my life has worked out. I would lay down my life for those kind souls. There is not a doubt in my mind as to their sheer bravery, honor, morals, or love of and desire for peace. Are there bad Muslims out there, of course. But there are some pretty bad Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists out there too, among others. If we're going to generalize, than those good folks that saved my life over and over are included.

See why some people are so tolerant? Because we owe our lives to someone other than ourselves.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[NcDeuce]

He called me a racist, I called him a ni**er-lover.

tit-for-tat

That's messed up. You are from Seattle (supposedly). I am from Georgia and Tennessee (birthplace of KKK and birthplace of the man in your avatar) and we refrain from that type of talk. You better rid the Nazi super-right-wing faccade or you may run into many angry folk in the future.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Thats a definition taken from a dictionary,off course it's unlawful,that's why it's a crime,look at Timothy Mac Veigh's case,nothing to do with religion or war,it was a crime,the deaths of those acts are unlawful deaths,which means Murder!

Timothy McVeigh was a seditious terrorist. Terrorism is basically political violence.

It was a crime for having bombed the federal building. Not too different from Guy Fawkes really. In both cases unlawful as they were attacking their own governments.

On the other hand, successful rebellions are called revolutions. An example would be the French revolution, of course the terror did not really begin until after the radicals took power.

[Royal]

Thank you (yet again) Tane.

I can honestly say that I owe my life to a Belfast Catholic, an Iraqi kurd, a Bosnian Muslim, a Croat, a Londoner, a US 'contractor', a Scouser (now that hurts ;) ), a French Foreign Legionaire and more recently a Gurkha.

We place our lives in the hands of our comrades. Some we serve with for years, some we meet only once.

[Sixgun Symphony]

He called me a racist, I called him a ni**er-lover.

tit-for-tat

That's messed up. You are from Seattle (supposedly). I am from Georgia and Tennessee (birthplace of KKK and birthplace of the man in your avatar) and we refrain from that type of talk. You better rid the Nazi super-right-wing faccade or you may run into many angry folk in the future.

You know what you can do with yourself.

[ibstolidude]

We may wear skirts,.....

YES but with legs like the two of you have, no one minds!

;) :oops:

[Argyll]

Thats a definition taken from a dictionary,off course it's unlawful,that's why it's a crime,look at Timothy Mac Veigh's case,nothing to do with religion or war,it was a crime,the deaths of those acts are unlawful deaths,which means Murder!

Timothy McVeigh was a seditious terrorist. Terrorism is basically political violence.

It was a crime for having bombed the federal building. Not too different from Guy Fawkes really. In both cases unlawful as they were attacking their own governments.

On the other hand, successful rebellions are called revolutions. An example would be the French revolution, of course the terror did not really begin until after the radicals took power.

And both are still classed as acts of terrorism!

as is flying a freakin plane into a building!

[NcDeuce]

He called me a racist, I called him a ni**er-lover.

tit-for-tat

That's messed up. You are from Seattle (supposedly). I am from Georgia and Tennessee (birthplace of KKK and birthplace of the man in your avatar) and we refrain from that type of talk. You better rid the Nazi super-right-wing faccade or you may run into many angry folk in the future.

[Sixgun Symphony]

He is hypersensitive about race so I wanted to push his buttons.


I think it's you banging on about Islamic Fundamentialists,how wrong it was to have a new Islamic state in Bosnia,"Pinko" Europeans etc etc ,whose hypersensitive to race

Racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

Is this more Patriotic for you deuce?


You were the one going on about Islam like it was a race. I pointed out that it was a religion, not a race.

This 'tolerance' is putting blinders on you. Al Qaida is popular with a large percentage of the large and growing muslim population in Europe. You guys are sitting on a time bomb and its "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'.

Again, terrorism is but a strategy. The war is a clash of civilizations and it is far from over. The crusades lasted two hundred years and I think that this new fight between Islam and Western civilization is just getting warm.

[Tane Angle]

No need to thank me, Royal; thank you. Just to check, I was just completely ignored, huh? That's ok, happens to me all the time. Just seems like not countering respectably is equitable to agreeing, no?

And I have to say, not that I am any less grateful to my friends and comrades of long spans, but it has always been the random people who have no reason to help me-other than the fact that they are nice people-who still have saved my life and my friends' lives who have just astounded me. Everytime I get discouraged after meeting less than loving people, I just remember those good, heroic people (they are never far from my mind to begin with) and say "hey, if humanity produced those people, than there's automatically more good than bad in the world."

Not to long ago someone I was meeting with, having apparently heard a story or two about who she would be meeting with from my company, said at one point during the meeting something to the effect of "you're a bit clumsy in combat, aren't you?" I naturally asked her why she said that, and she said "well, I understand that you've had your butt saved dozens of times." I played it down as that I haven't done anything that dangerous, but that I suppose I was overtaxing my guardian angel.

[duck]

On a sidenote, I think we should bring back duels. Nothing like four gentlemen gathering on a calm morning and three walking away...

[Argyll]

He is hypersensitive about race so I wanted to push his buttons.


I think it's you banging on about Islamic Fundamentialists,how wrong it was to have a new Islamic state in Bosnia,"Pinko" Europeans etc etc ,whose hypersensitive to race

Racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

Is this more Patriotic for you deuce?


You were the one going on about Islam like it was a race. I pointed out that it was a religion, not a race.

Did I say it was,or did you assume?

This 'tolerance' is putting blinders on you. Al Qaida is popular with a large percentage of the large and growing muslim population in Europe. You guys are sitting on a time bomb and its "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'.

Tolerance................like I said Buddy,we've been dealing with TERRORISM since 1969,I'd hardly call that tolerance.
I think you'll also find that EOKA still exist in Cyprus and we've been there longer!
If we are sitting on a time bomb what about the Muslims in the States?
Are they not just a similar timebomb?
Again, terrorism is but a strategy. The war is a clash of civilizations and it is far from over. The crusades lasted two hundred years and I think that this new fight between Islam and Western civilization is just getting warm.

Not all Islamists are extremists or fundamentalists

[Sixgun Symphony]

And both are still classed as acts of terrorism!

as is flying a freakin plane into a building!


That is my point. Terrorism is political violence. Sometimes it will be a lone radical, sometimes by a radical movement, sometimes it will be used by a government on its own populace (ie. Saddam Fedayeen).

Terrorism is a strategy, used by immoral enemies who see the end as justifying the means.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Not all Islamists are extremists or fundamentalists

No, but like I said, the clash of civilizations is just getting warm and many of the muslim 'asylum seekers' will get radicalized. Click on the link, you guys are sitting on a time bomb over there. Problem is that you got too much 'tolerance' to see what is right in front of you.


*full story* (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5FD2DDBD-DA09-46B0-A7C9-49FE59BE6946.htm)

A music video glorifying Usama bin Ladin and containing images of the 11 September attacks in New York has become a big hit with young Muslims in Britain.

The muslims are a small minority here in the states. Not the millions that you let into your country. You are sitting on a very large time bomb there.

[farmgirl]

Should we not be sensitive about race? Maybe some people missed this when I posted it only two days ago.


Hello all, how are you? Can we keep things civil please; I've been hearing that there were some problems with civility and tolerance. I can't tell people what to believe, but it isn't very civil to say hateful things to/about others. I've worked with a lot of people in my life, and nearly all have been real great folks, regardless of being Shi’a, Sunni, Druze, Hmong, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Jewish, any of a variety of Christian faiths, homo******, bi******, or hetero******, a prostitute or a professor. That’s just an example, too. And I've had life saved by a fair number of very diverse people, so using more tolerant terms is, if nothing else, a welcome and much-appreciated sign of respect to me. I wouldn't insult a stranger's mother, because that people owe their lives to their mothers. Same basic principle, no?

Let me say that again; I owe my life to some very fine Muslims. I'd be dead without them. That's the way my life has worked out. I would lay down my life for those kind souls. There is not a doubt in my mind as to their sheer bravery, honor, morals, or love of and desire for peace. Are there bad Muslims out there, of course. But there are some pretty bad Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists out there too, among others. If we're going to generalize, than those good folks that saved my life over and over are included.

See why some people are so tolerant? Because we owe our lives to someone other than ourselves.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...


You never cease to amaze me, Tane. You continue to epitomize patience and gentlemanly behavior no matter what kind of morons open their pie holes. You are a better man than I. ;)
I hope you realize that while you may be ignored by some of the more obtuse members of the forum, there are a great many people who read and internalize what you say on a regular basis. You are appreciated.

Royal and Argyll.... you are great sources of information and wisdom for me as well. Thank you for that.

[Yard Ape]

You were the one going on about Islam like it was a race. I pointed out that it was a religion, not a race.Would you prefer the lable 'Bigot'?

[Yard Ape]

I still don't think it was a good idea to establish a new Islamic state in Bosnia. It is just a new base for the Islamic Jihadis in the clash of civilizations. Mass deportations of muslims to Asia-Minor and North Africa would be desirable.How can you not think such action would do anything less than cause more terrorism? You ignored the last time I asked this on another thread. Probably because it is easier than admitting your scheme would not work.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The terrorist war is already on. It has been a resurgent Islam for decades now. The first Islamic terrorist attack on the USA was the assassination of Robert Kennedy by Sirhan Sirhan and that was 35yrs ago.

You guys are sitting on a powder keg in Europe because you let in millions of the muslims to settle there.

If they muslim populations remained in Africa and Asia, then the terrorist operatives could not operate in the West. They would have no support, nor a population to hide in when in a Western nation.

[Yard Ape]

Terrorism as unlawful? I agree that it is a dishonorable means of waging war. But unlawful? Governments make laws and some governments support terrorism. That is the reason why we toppled the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, and one of the reasons why we finally toppled Saddam's regime in Iraq.
Terrorism is basically political violence.You neglect to mention that it is aimed at civilian targets. Typically this serves no military aim. Even state sanctioned terrorism would be in violation of international law. But hey, if you want to suggest that flying planes into buildings is a legitimate act of war & not a crime that would be your opinion.


I think it was Von Clausewitz who said that politics is war. No. Clausewitz saw war as an instrument of state policy. Politics was not war. War was the final tool in the political arsenal to influence the international stage. It is one of the reason that military posturing was common in western nations at the start of the 20th century & one factor in the start of the first world war.

[serbian boy]

Tane angel, Where were you born may I ask? Did you ever go to yugoslavia or kosovo or anywhere in europe for that matter? Man, shut the **** up! :fork: I was born there and I lived through it all and I have friends and family members who fought and died there fighting Islamic terrorism in Bosnia and kosovo and Nazi's and Arayan mother****ers in Croatia. The real vicitms in the conflict were serbs not anybody else! Those mass graves might have been commited by serbs but if they were it was revenge for all the pain and torture inflicted on our people! before you want to say anything study the history first! MOTHER****ER!
CHRISTIANS UNITE! woot [/quote]

[Yard Ape]

You guys are sitting on a powder keg in Europe because you let in millions of the muslims to settle there.The US muslim population is 7 million & growing faster than the national average. Is your country also about to explode, or are you ready to addmit your fear mongering?

http://www.allied-media.com/AM/default.htm

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yard Ape,

I never said terrorism was legitimate. If you read my posts, then you would see that I called it dishonorable.

My point about law is that law is force. The anarchists are correct when they say law comes from governments. "Cain's knotted club is sceptre still" so I don't trust "international law".

"Behind all Kings and Presidents --
All government and law,
Are army-corps and canoneers
To hold the world in awe"

[Sixgun Symphony]

You guys are sitting on a powder keg in Europe because you let in millions of the muslims to settle there.The US muslim population is 7 million & growing faster than the national average. Is your country also about to explode, or are you ready to addmit your fear mongering?

http://www.allied-media.com/AM/default.htm

7 million? If true, then it can be a problem in the future. Still, not the the overwhelming tens of millions in a small country like France.

[Yard Ape]

The real vicitms in the conflict were serbs not anybody else! Those mass graves might have been commited by serbs but if they were it was revenge for all the pain and torture inflicted on our people! Don't pretend that having suffered terrorism justifies crimes against humanity. If you have to look back as far as the Nazis as a basis to justify genocide in the 90's, you know that the people who executed that genocide were never saw the work of the Nazis. You may as well say that injustices under Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman empire justify atrocities in the wars of through the FRY.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yard Ape,

I have only seen the bodies of men being pulled out of those mass graves. I expect to find dead men on a battlefield, so no problem there.

IF the bodies of women and children were being pulled from those graves then I agree with you about it being a crime, genocide.

I got some guys here who said they saw the bodies of women and children. But I don't really know them and have only seen reports and photographs of men being buried in those mass graves.

[Yard Ape]

Read about a Canadian discovery of Genocide conducted by Croations against Serbs: THE MEDAK POCKET (http://www.cda-cdai.ca/library/medakpocket.htm)

Here are some victims (http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Medak-victims.html) Not all men.

Every side in those wars at some point showed very poor regard for the rights of non-combatants.

[Royal]

Tane angel, Where were you born may I ask? Did you ever go to yugoslavia or kosovo or anywhere in europe for that matter? Man, shut the f*** up! :fork: I was born there and I lived through it all and I have friends and family members who fought and died there fighting Islamic terrorism in Bosnia and kosovo and Nazi's and Arayan f*** in Croatia. The real vicitms in the conflict were serbs not anybody else! Those mass graves might have been commited by serbs but if they were it was revenge for all the pain and torture inflicted on our people! before you want to say anything study the history first! f***!
CHRISTIANS UNITE! woot [/quote]

Picku maternu.

Tane, along with several others here has spent plenty of time soldiering in the Balkans - seeing the crimes commited by all sides.

Grow up and open your eyes.

Yes the Serbs were hard done by by the international press. Yes the Croats and Muslims commited acts of 'ethnicko ciscenje'. So kid the Serbs, and not just bastards like Raznatovic. God rot his soul.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Ok then, force was necessary to separate the combatants.

So how come the European powers did not step in? Why do they need the US to lead them into the region? Their Europe after all.

I daresay that the French military could have handled it alone. I don't like these sorts of massacres, nor do I like the effette, weak, and most of all ungrateful western Europeans who need the US to do everything for them.

[Royal]

Ok then, force was necessary to separate the combatants.

So how come the European powers did not step in? Why do they need the US to lead them into the region? Their Europe after all.

What exactly do you think 15,000 British troops and roughly the same number of French (I don't know exactly) were doing while the US line troops sat in Hungary waiting for their AO's to be cleared and the FWF put into Cantonments.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The US had to push, pull, and drag the European governments to do something about the situation there in the Balkans.

[Yard Ape]

BS

Europe was there first. Along with Canada. The US came years later.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Before the US got involved, there were just weak token forces who got pushed around by the different sides in that conflict.

It was Bill Clinton who got things rolling over there, mostly to give a new mission for NATO in a post Cold War era.

Now I admit, my desire is for the US to pull completely out of NATO and for the European powers to take care of their own problems.

[Royal]

Before the US got involved, there were just weak token forces who got pushed around by the different sides in that conflict.

It was Bill Clinton who got things rolling over there, mostly to give a new mission for NATO in a post Cold War era.

Now I admit, my desire is for the US to pull completely out of NATO and for the European powers to take care of their own problems.

BritBat 1 - Armoured Infantry Battle Group
BritBat 2 - Mech Infantry Battle Group
BritCavBat - Light Cavalry Battle Group
Associated Engineer, Logistics, MP, Aviation and Special Forces.

Yeah, I'd call that a token force :cantbeli:

and that was just the British contingent in UNPROFOR.

[Yard Ape]

The US had to push, pull, and drag the European governments to do something about the situation there in the Balkans.The inverse is more accurate.


Before the US got involved, there were just weak token forces who got pushed around by the different sides in that conflict.Before the US got involved it was a UN operation that did not allow for sufficient deployment of fire power, had too many restrictions on use of force, and was too narrow in mandate. Many of the participating nations realised this and (many of them being NATO) also realised that NATO was better equiped to deal with thie issue.


Now I admit, my desire is for the US to pull completely out of NATO and for the European powers to take care of their own problems.NATO is about more than dealing with "European problems." It just happens that this particular problem was in Europe. NATO is currently supporting the US in Afghanistan & may become involved in Iraq. Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies? What are your thoughts on ABCA?

[Sixgun Symphony]

NATO was established to deal with the threat of soviet expansionism in Europe. The Cold War was over and NATO should have been dissolved.

Inverse? rofl

UN operation? Fuk the UN, the Europeans should take care of their own affairs.


The war on Islamic terrorism? If we were to pull our troops out of Europe, then we would have more than enough to deploy in the middle east.

[Yard Ape]

NATO is about collective defence. Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies?


If we were to pull our troops out of Europe, then we would have more than enough to deploy in the middle east.If this were true, do you really think your country would not already have done this?

[Sixgun Symphony]

NATO is about collective defence. Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies?

The Soviet Union is gone, the Cold War was fought and won. NATO has outlived its mission.

I would pull out of foreign entanglements.

[Yard Ape]

Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies? (third time asking & still waiting for any answer)

[Sixgun Symphony]

If this were true, do you really think your country would not already have done this?

We are still in Europe because too many in Washington are still fighting the Cold War. Simply put, the US mission in the Balkans was to expand NATO on Russia. It is about US power projection in Europe and I wish those guys would retire from politics.

I would much prefer the Charles Lindbergh school of America First! isolationism.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies? (third time asking & still waiting for any answer)

For dealing with a resurgent Islam, Yes.


Tiny little Israel has fought them alone and won many of times. Islam would not be so dangerous had the liberals not let the millions of them settle in Western nations. Such immigration is a pipeline for Islamic terrorism.

Now the Brits have been a stalwart ally, but I think most of our European allies are weak. Think of the Italians in WWII. Old equipment, half-trained conscripts. I would not depend on them for a real fight.

[Yard Ape]

Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies? (third time asking & still waiting for any answer)
For dealing with the resurgent Islam, Yes. What about for dealing with all threats to the US?


Tiny little Israel has fought them alone and won many of times. Islam would not be so dangerous had the liberals not let the millions of them settle in Western nations. Such immigration is a pipeline for Islamci terrorism. They have not been able to achieve permanent peace through any of thier victories and they have not been able to bring an end to terrorism. Can the US do this alone?


Now the Brits have been a stalwart ally, but I think most of our European allies are weak. Think of the Italians in WWII. Old equipment, half-trained conscripts, and I would not depend on them for a real fight.So what are your thoughts on ABCA?

[Sixgun Symphony]

All threats? I think China may be a worthy adversary, but that will be decades from now. Even when they develop a large modern navy, they won't pick a fight with the US if we can leave Asia to the Asians.


Israel threw away victory in the 1967 war when General Dayan asked the Arab population to stay in what was Trans-Jordan (now called the West Bank). This population was all packed up and they were leaving for Jordan across the river. Israel would not be facing this insurgency today had General Dayan allowed them to leave.




ABCA?

[Yard Ape]

From Death of the West - Pat Buchanin (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8470)

I think it is well and good for US to support Israel. I think there will be peace in the region when Israel finally moves the Palestinian Arab population out of the West Bank and into Jordan. The reason why I think this is because the Jordanian river makes for a natural border. A militarized river is a much better barrier than any man made wall to insurgents.
I still don't think it was a good idea to establish a new Islamic state in Bosnia. It is just a new base for the Islamic Jihadis in the clash of civilizations. Mass deportations of muslims to Asia-Minor and North Africa would be desirable.Do you see the key to American security being the deportation of the 7 million US Muslims?


ABCA? America Britain Canada Australia
Never actually formalised in a treaty, but recognized through the respective militaries. It is closely associated with what has been called the Angloshpere and should probably include New Zealand as well.

[Upfrontreporting]

Sixgun Bollocks wrote:


I still don't think it was a good idea to establish a new Islamic state in Bosnia. It is just a new base for the Islamic Jihadis in the clash of civilizations. Mass deportations of muslims to Asia-Minor and North Africa would be desirable.


Hey ****o, Bosnia as of today has got ****-all to do with an islamic state. I've been to bosnia several times and Bosnia has nothing to do with anything similar to a Middle Eastern islamic state, agreed it has it's religious extremists but it's a destinct minority, the average Bosniak has a very laid back attitude towards religion, smoking drinking and eating pork. The average Bosniak is not interested in an islamic crusade.

You speak about mass deportations, personally I think assholes like you should be deported, it's extremists like you (irrespective of religious beliefs) who create a hatefull situation.


regards.

[Yard Ape]

Israel threw away victory in the 1967 war when General Dayan asked the Arab population to stay in what was Trans-Jordan (now called the West Bank). This population was all packed up and they were leaving for Jordan across the river. Israel would not be facing this insurgency today had General Dayan allowed them to leave.
http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative11.jpg

[Sixgun Symphony]

Al Qaida and other mujahadeen are there. Money from the wealthy oil sheiks is coming in to spread their religious conservatism. So give it time.

Personally, I think the Brits and French should not have fought against the Russians back in the mid-19th century when they were about to liberate the Balkans from the Ottoman Turks. Constantinople should have been liberated.

[martinexsquaddie]

nah you can't deport him it would'nt be fair on anywhere you sent him :lol:
to be fair what can you expect from someone who reads pat buchanan listens to shock jocks and fox news.
probably belives the UN has plans to invade the US

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yard Ape,

Now you are being stupid. The Jordan river is a natural barrier, a militarized Jordan River would be far better than the wall they are putting up now to stop PLO insurgents.

[James]

Martin, I'd like to invite you and mocking loudly died to come help defend Seattle against the spread of this depravity.

[Royal]

Al Qaida and other mujahadeen are there. Money from the wealthy oil sheiks is coming in to spread their religious conservatism. So give it time.

The last Muj training camp discovered was closed down in 2001 - it had been happily operating in the US AOR for at least 3 years.

Yes there is a huge ammount of Saudi money coming in for mosque building. Building bigger and better religious buildings in Bosnia is a pissing contest - one community builds one, then another builds a bigger one, and so on ad infinitm.

Strangely though the average Bosnian, whether 'Catholic', 'Orthodox' or 'Muslim' couldn't give a flying f**k about religion which is why they all drink like fish, eat pork, walk around in mini-skirts and can't find enough Mullahs to man the mosques and have to use tape recorders on timers for the call to prayer.

[Sixgun Symphony]

nah you can't deport him it would'nt be fair on anywhere you sent him :lol:
to be fair what can you expect from someone who reads pat buchanan listens to shock jocks and fox news.
probably belives the UN has plans to invade the US

Another labour voter :roll:

Should we have bothered saving the Europeans from Stalin? They all vote for communists and socialits anyway.

[Yard Ape]

The Jordan river is a natural barrier, a militarized Jordan River would be far better than the wall they are putting up now to stop PLO insurgents.The country would have seen other full scale wars (in the time since) if they had allowed all the Palestinians to be evicted across the Jordan. More Insurgency (than currently exists) would come from Gaza and Lebanon.

[Yard Ape]

Questions you still have chose to skip:
Do you see the key to American security being the deportation of the 7 million US Muslims?

what are your thoughts on America Britain Canada Australia?
(probably could be ABCANZ)

[Sixgun Symphony]

The Jordan river is a natural barrier, a militarized Jordan River would be far better than the wall they are putting up now to stop PLO insurgents.The country would have seen other full scale wars (in the time since) if they had allowed all the Palestinians to be evicted across the Jordan. More Insurgency (than currently exists) would come from Gaza and Lebanon.

You forget that these Arabs were Jordanian citizens. The term Palestinian had not come into vogue just yet. You also forget that 80% of Jordan was designated as the Arab portion of British Palestine when it was partitioned.

Lebanon? They got support from the Christians in that country. It was the USA that stopped them from wiping out the PLO in Beruit. We had our embassy bombed for our troubles and lost quite a few Marines.

Gaza? Build a wall.


Conventional forces? Israel has been able to deal with that much better than this incessant terrorism of the infatadah insurgency.

[Yard Ape]

My point about law is that law is force. The anarchists are correct when they say law comes from governments. "Cain's knotted club is sceptre still" so I don't trust "international law".This sounds close to a "it's not illeagal unless you are caught" attitude. Maybe instead of preaching issolationism, you would support adding teeth to the enforcment of international law?

UN operation? Fuk the UN, the Europeans should take care of their own affairs. Why the contempt for the UN? Do you not belive in international cooperation to prevent war & crimes against humanity?


Questions you still have chose to skip:
Do you see the key to American security being the deportation of the 7 million US Muslims?

what are your thoughts on America Britain Canada Australia?
(probably could be ABCANZ)

[Nizark]

Well dig this, the things he said in the past doesn't necessarily mean he will act that way once he becomes prez. Anyway, as Clark as his VP, the international relations will be taken care of. Seeya Shrub

[Luxembourger]

He called me a racist, I called him a ni**er-lover.

are you really an American ? an American would not say such a crap

So you call the afro-american soldiers who are fighting in iraq " ni**ers?
:(

[Kriz]

nah you can't deport him it would'nt be fair on anywhere you sent him :lol:
to be fair what can you expect from someone who reads pat buchanan listens to shock jocks and fox news.
probably belives the UN has plans to invade the US

Another labour voter :roll:

Should we have bothered saving the Europeans from Stalin? They all vote for communists and socialits anyway.

Wrong, in most european countries people at this very moment are voting right or central and not communist. In most countries communist parties are very small.

Besides you saved us because you didn't want communism all over Europe for it would be treat to your capitalist system.

[Tane Angle]

Dobar dan, serbian boy. Welcome to the message board. Please understand that I never mean to offend anyone with any of my writings and apologize in advance if I miswrite and do offend someone; that was, of course, not my intent. My apologies for my late posting, I was unaware that this thread had had this resurgence in popularity.


Those mass graves might have been commited by serbs but if they were it was revenge for all the pain and torture inflicted on our people! before you want to say anything study the history first! f***!

If two sides want to have a war in which no civilians die and both sides are pro-war, fine, that's none of my business. But I am against civilians dying, be they Serb, Croatian, Bosnian, Kosovar, etc. Civilians are civilians. And revenge is not an acceptable reason, I'm sorry. By that logic, I should be in favor of nuking Lebanon. However, I am not.

In answer to your question, friend, I have spent my share of time in all of the Yugoslav republics. I actually said that earlier in this thread, but that's ok if you didn't read it. I saw the bodies with my own eyes. Most of the ones I saw, and I saw thousands, were unmistakable non-combatants. Bone tests showed mostly women, children, and elderly people. But I didn't need bone tests to tell me that the two and three feet tall skeletons at my feet were too young to even withstand the recoil of an AK47. Civilians being slaughtered-even in revenge-is not acceptable, I'm sorry. And I'm just as outraged when I see Serbian civilians killed. I don't care who wins some conflicts, provided that the innocent civilians don't lose.

About Christians...I am a Christian. That doesn't necessarily make me a good person. Quite frankly, how good a person I am is between the Good Lord and me, no one else. Same for others. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. No? What do these mean, and do we actually practice them? I know I don't as much as I might like to, but we're not talking about me. Now some people merely pray, but don't live good lives. And some people live good lives, but don't pray (or at least not in the same way as, say, Orthodox Christians).

Thanks for the help guys. Thank you very much to farmgirl, that is very nice to hear, especially from an English expert such as yourself. But please don't forget my friends Royal and Argyll here, among others. Thank you to you two.

serbian boy, it was nice corresponding with you. Serbia is a very pretty country, isn't it? Sometimes, standing in a valley, I almost forgot how war-torn the area was. If you haven't been there, I highly recommend it. It's a beautiful place.

Take care, all. Have a good one, and as always, just some thoughts...

[Haiw]

7 million? If true, then it can be a problem in the future. Still, not the the overwhelming tens of millions in a small country like France.
What have you been smoking? France has 60 million people, of which only 5 to 10% are Muslim...
Not too bright on the math now are we?

[Parzival]

I agree with kerry. He is a good man. He have been in war and know what he doin!

[Sixgun Symphony]

7 million? If true, then it can be a problem in the future. Still, not the the overwhelming tens of millions in a small country like France.
What have you been smoking? France has 60 million people, of which only 5 to 10% are Muslim...
Not too bright on the math now are we?

The USA has a population of 291,500,000 http://www.ameristat.org/

France is a small country in both population and land mass when compared to the USA.

The muslims are a very large minority in France, they have a high birth rate and there are millions more migrating in. The francais de souche or “root French”, on the other hand, have a birthrate too low to even maintain their numbers. Islam will clearly take over France at some point in the future.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yard Ape,

Law is force, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Terrorism comes from "the law" as much as it comes from anarchist elements.

International law? Let me remind you that we fought a war for national independence 200yrs ago. If a bunch of global government types think they have authority over US, then I would say that it is time for another war for national independance.

[Argyll]

Yard Ape,

Law is force, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Terrorism comes from "the law" as much as it comes from anarchist elements.

International law? Let me remind you that we fought a war for national independence 200yrs ago. If a bunch of global government types think they have authority over US, then I would say that it is time for another war for national independance.


And who would you fight?
You just cannot help yourself can you,quit with this KKK stuff,you make American's look bad! :roll:

[Sixgun Symphony]

What? can't you read?

What is with this global government b/s anyway? The euro-trash are so in love with the idea.

BTW, It is a clash of civilizations. The 'war on terror' is really a war on Islamic terrorism.

[Haiw]

The USA has a population of 291,500,000 http://www.ameristat.org/

France is a small country in both population and land mass when compared to the USA.

The muslims are a very large minority in France, they have a high birth rate and there are millions more migrating in. The francais de souche or “root French”, on the other hand, have a birthrate too low to even maintain their numbers. Islam will clearly take over France at some point in the future.
What does the US population have to do with it? I'm just saying your figures about the Muslim population are wildly exaggerated. Also the extreme 'Muslim growth' is rather big smelly bull****, and has it ever crossed your mind that maybe a huge part of the Muslims in France simply came there after Algeria stopped being a colony, and already live in France for a long time as normal French people?

[Sixgun Symphony]

You disagreed with my statement about France being a small country and I showed you the error of your thinking.

The muslims are mostly economic refugees from an overpopulated 3rd World and you are deluding yourself to say that they are there to become French.

[Haiw]

You disagreed with my statement about France being a small country and I showed you the error of your thinking.

The muslims are mostly economic refugees from an overpopulated 3rd World and you are deluding yourself to say that they are there to become French.
I never said agreed or disagreed with your statement about it being a small country; all I do is correcting your figures you produced from thin air.

Also most economic refugees in reality only gain from integrating in the society, and I never said they came there just 'to become French'. However, even though their reasons are often economical, in the end they often just end up integrating, and becoming at least somewhat French (or Dutch, or German, or whatever).

Oh, and yeah, I know there's still parts where sometimes they don't seem to integrate at all, and you get small 'foreign communities'. However, in reality they will stay just that; small foreign communities.
Even though, of course, there's always some problems, especially because not all people integrate like that, the way you describe it is definately not reality.

[Shake n Bake]

He called me a racist, I called him a ni**er-lover.

are you really an American ? an American would not say such a crap

So you call the afro-american soldiers who are fighting in iraq " ni**ers?
:(


SS does this to get a rise outta people-- He has been playing you saps like a cheap fiddle.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Haiw,

A small number of muslims would be good, a few thousands will integrate. But to let in millions? They will not integrate when in such massive numbers. You have only created Islamic colonies in Europe.

BTW, you know that Charles Martel must be spinning in his grave.

[ibstolidude]

Strangely though the average Bosnian, whether 'Catholic', 'Orthodox' or 'Muslim' couldn't give a flying f**k about religion which is why they all drink like fish, eat pork, walk around in mini-skirts and can't find enough Mullahs to man the mosques and have to use tape recorders on timers for the call to prayer.
I remember eating ham on a pizza in Mostar and trying to get the barkeep fired up saying..."hey you serve pig and beer?" He said "Hell that isn't pork anyway that is pig bacon." when asked about muslims refraining from booze he said "well that is just foolish, isn't it."

[Haiw]

Haiw,

A small number of muslims would be good, a few thousands will integrate. But to let in millions? They will not integrate when in such massive numbers. You have only created Islamic colonies in Europe.

BTW, you know that Charles Martel must be spinning in his grave.
It's not millions that are coming in all the time, and second, did you know Islam in general is suffering from the same thing as Christianity? With every generation people become less and less religious... (especially when they're in a western environment)

And what should I care about some 1300 year old guy? If he ever existed Jesus would propably have turned over in his grave as well for all the things that have been done in his name. :roll:

[M203]

Ive been to bosnia and to kosovo and like many other forum members I have also seen the bodies of dead women and children. I have also seen a couple of graves with dead men, men that were dead beacuse of the fact that they were men. Reading your posts sixgun I get the feeling that this is a tactic that is ok. Killing POTENTIAL combatants?


this is why we europeans went to bosnia

(article from unicorn who served with norbat2) Yea i gave posted it before but I felt i was suited in this thread
Article by Unicorn
Translation by J-Star and Ace

In the fall of 1993 I was serving as a heavy machinegunner at Nordbat 2, Guard & Escort platoon. By the end of september our SISU and a platoon from 10th mech inf company were sent urgently as reinforcements to the 8th mech inf company area of responsibility in Vares. This was because several of the battalion's armored vehicles had been involved in clashes with units of the HVO. The 8th coy had also been subjected to ambushes.

The mood in Vares was nasty and very threatening. No civilians what-so-ever were moving outdoors and the entire time we were close, too close, to losing control of the situation. If we ever had any control that is. We were a few hundred Swedes against an entire Croatian brigade.

Houses were burning here and there in Vares and its surroundings, but from one of the battalion observation posts one could see the light of a fire that from the looks of it was more serious. It seemed as if an entire village was in flames. However, Croatian forces were blocking the access routes and refused to let anyone near the village.

Units from the Swedish battalion had repeatedly been, and still were, subjected to ambushes by "unknown" soldiers. Sometimes they shot back. The whole situation was like walking a thin line. Most of the SISU-vehicles had one or more tires that had been scavenged from less prioritized vehicles. The tires had been blown out and shot at such a pace that no more spares were available. Instead there were now a couple of trucks without wheels put up on blocks in the camp.

The mood between the Croatian forces and the Swedish battalion was as mentioned not the best. Still though the hostilities were not official. Going into the village on the other hand would have meant an open confrontation with the HVO. The Swedish battalion was a few hundred men, and reinforcements were not available in the foreseeable future. Against them, they would have gotten the entire Croatian Bobovac Brigade.

A refugee managed to reach the Nordbat camp and reported that the people in the burning village had been put through terrible atrocities. The village's name was Stupni Do. Rumours had it that some forty villagers had escaped and were hiding in the woods some kilometres from the village, in the middle of the frontline. They were probably trying to reach the Bosnian side of the front.

Together with battalion commander Ulf Henricsson and a few members of his staff we left in our SISU in an attempt to find the refugees. It was dark, houses were burning around us, and we left for the frontline. A couple of times we negotiated our way through checkpoints controlled by HVO, the Bosnian-Croatian army.

We searched with night vision goggles but couldn't find the refugees. We thought we had found their location - a creepy cemetery on the steep hillside. We saw no one and could do nothing alone in the darkness, so we returned to the camp for a couple of hours of sleep.

At the camp all available personnel were in entrenchments. The 8th coy camp was situated in a valley between high mountains and it was a nightmare to protect against assaults or snipers. A letter had been left during the day where they threatened to once again attack the camp. It was biting cold outside and the only thing that didn't freeze was the mud, that reached above the ankles. The fog was thick and made it impossible to see more than 50 meters.

Early in the morning we made another attempt to rescue the refugees. This time we brought two medic SISU's and another armed Guard/Escort SISU. Major Daniel Ekberg was in command of the unit. We negotiated a passage through a couple of checkpoints and went back to the location we had found last evening. There we stopped in the middle of the road in a narrow canyon between two hill slopes. We used our powerful horns on the vehicles and our interpreter Ruzdi Ekenheim explained through a megaphone that we were from UNPROFOR and there to help. Nothing happened. If the refugees really were there they were afraid to show themselves. Twenty minutes passed and soon we would have to leave. If the HVO found us we would be in trouble.

Just when we had begun to give up hope we hear a cry for help from the forest. Little by little twenty five frozen, shocked human remnants come to us. A woman had died during the night, but we had no means of bringing her corpse. We left her body behind.

A pretty girl in her twenties throws herself crying around the neck of Ekenheim. She tells of how she was forced to watch her family get killed. Her boyfriend was on crutches after an injury, and they made her watch them kill him. If she had dropped as much as a tear they would have killed her too. After this they raped her and threw her into a house with some other villagers. The door was blocked and the house was set on fire.

The girl was alive now thanks to a sledge being found. While the house was burning, they used that to make a hole in the wall and managed to flee into the forest at the back of the house.

In the middle of our rescue operation a mini-bus filled with Croatian HVO soldiers comes driving towards us at high speed. I pointed my heavy machinegun at them and armed it. The warning shot I intended to fire turned out not to be necessary though. At the mere sight of the muzzle the soldiers became so frightened that they drove off the road. We let the trembling soldiers leave the scene in the company of two other HVO soldiers that had been captured and disarmed by the Guard/Escort-SISU at the other end of the column.

After making sure we had gotten all refugees and loaded them into our already crammed SISU-vehicles we drove to the village Pominici on the Bosnian side of the front. Our SISU was so full of people that I had to stand on one leg the whole trip there. Since the rear was packed with refugees, any attempt to lessen the target silhouette by crouching behind the machinegun was made impossible and I felt like my entire upper body was a glow-in-the-dark target for the Croatian snipers.

I will never forget the emotions and facial expressions that met us in Pominici. People desperately looking for relatives. The relief of finding the one they were looking for. The despair when someone wasn't there. At least I had an affirmation that our presence was not only justified. It was essential.

Now we just had to get back. That turned out to be more difficult than we expected. By now the HVO knew what we had done. They didn't like that we had "picked sides" by helping the refugees. Probably it also was against UN directives for the area. At a checkpoint in the southern outskirts of Vares we were stopped. Major Ekberg asked for advice on the radio. Ulf Henricsson himself answered.

"-This is Victor Lima One. Are there any mines there?"
"-Negative!"
"-Give them two minutes - then run you the damn thing down!"

That was the first roadblock, but far from the last, to be smashed under the Nordic battalion's armoured vehicles.

We ran a gauntlet through Vares before we were stopped by soldiers with anti tank weapons. Four solders with LAWs were fanned out in front of the convoy. The situation was so tense one careless move would immediately have set off a battle. As I was standing at the heavy machinegun in the front-most vehicle I realized I would be the first to fall. Add to that the machinegun was mounted on an anti-aircraft carriage completely devoid of armour protection. I was an easy target. At the same time I realized my weapon was the only thing that would get us out of there if the battle started. I started preparing for my own death by giving orders and assigning targets for the others in the rear of the vehicle. The most important thing was that someone took my weapon when - not if - I fell.

The Croatian military policeman that was in charge of the HVO soldiers stepped up with a couple of men to negotiate. He had 25 hash marks on the butt if his AK47. One for each enemy he had killed. Major Ekberg and the interpreter Ekeheim hade stepped out of the SISU and were now negotiating with the Croatians. The situation was tense. Very tense. After some time of negotiating the tension seemed to ease a bit. We thought the danger was over - but just like a letter in the mail a mentally disturbed HVO soldier came in a white VW Golf. Something had snapped with him when his entire family was obliterated by a grenade. For some reason he now hated the UN for this.

He stepped out of his car among the negotiating Swedes and Croatians, mad as a hornet, and grabbed on the HVO soldiers' LAWs in order to fire it against the SISU behind ours. In an instant the situation escalated and I had time to think "****, this is really happening now".

This was one of those moments in your life when time stands completely still. I saw in the eyes of the Croatian soldier that was in the sights of my 12.7 millimetre machinegun that he understood what was about to happen.

I'm pulling it...

But - a fraction of a second before the first projectiles from my heavy machinegun would have struck the chest of the first of the four LAW-carrying soldiers fifty meters in front of us, one of the Croatians managed to strike the somewhat antisocial man with a straight punch and remove the LAW from him. I eased up on the trigger and felt I must have been right on the pressure point of it. So damn close. Maybe there wouldn't be any killing after all.

Everyone breathed a sigh of relief. Had he had time to aim the LAW at the SISU, a series of events would have been started that couldn't have ended with anything but us or the Croatians being the only ones standing up. I felt my legs were shaking continuously. Partly from the psychical strain and partly from standing in the exact same strenuous position for half an hour.

The LAW soldier in my sights didn't like the fact that I was aiming at him and changed position. Not so strange after the incident with the LAW snatcher. I followed him with the barrel. He showed with unmistakable gestures that he felt provoked. I didn't care. We stared each other out, and neither wanted to be the first to back down. In the middle of our psychological duel I leaned out from behind the machinegun, winked and smiled at him. I won the battle. He became so flabbergasted he didn't really know what to do or how to behave, and started pacing like a confused chicken.

Suddenly Colonel Ulf Henricssons jeep shows up out of nowhere. The short statured - but oh so powerful - colonel steps out and starts shouting orders at both Swedes and HVO soldiers. The HVO men look almost astonished, and like magic Henricsson dominates the scene in a manner few people are capable of. He takes control of the situation and defuses it completely. We quite simply leave, leaving behind a large group of open-mouthed HVO soldiers.

We return to the camp for a debriefing of what the refugees have told us about Stupni Do. Conclusion: we ARE going into that village. Two mech inf platoons from 8th and 10th coy are selected for the task. For the first time in a very, very long time Swedish troops are ordered to get ready to take terrain. The platoons are assigned the north and south access roads to Stupni Do and set out.

At the same time we give colonel Henricsson a ride to the Bobovac Brigade headquarters in our SISU. The Croatians are given one last chance to let us in. If they don't, we will go in anyway. Exactly what the very resolute Henricsson said to the Bobovac Brigade commander I don't know - but the commander comes out personally and drives ahead of us in his personal maroon Vaz Niva to make sure we are let into the village.

Fairly undramatically we meet up with the mech inf platoon assigned to the northern approach of the village. There is also an armoured jeep there with a near suicidal television crew. Henricsson decides to take advantage of the situation and invites the crew to document what has happened. The colonel walks with the journalists ahead of our SISU as we slowly roll into Stupni Do.

Not one house in the village had been spared. Everything had been blown up, burnt down, destroyed. At first glance the village seemed devoid of people, but just after a few minutes we find the charred remains of a person. After a careful search a total of twenty corpses are found, among them a child about eight to ten years old that had been kicked to death. Three women that had tried to hide in a potato store had had their throats slit. Then they had been shot in the head. The corpses were still desperately holding hands. When a pioneer platoon later on are to carry out the bodies they find a ****y trap had been set by putting an armed grenade in the armpit of one of the bodies. It falls out on the floor without detonating.

The entire village was completely eradicated. A single cow and some cat had in some strange way escaped annihilation. Smoke was smouldering from the foundations of the houses. Water was bizarrely enough running from the blown up water mains. A sole yellow child's boot was on a slope outside one of the houses. I'm still wondering what had happened to the child that just some day ago been spending its time happily playing. Maybe the child was one of the little girls that were said to have been burned alive with gasoline for the murderers' amusement.

Colonel Henricsson stepped back into the SISU. We were now going to Pominici to interview the refugees thoroughly. We were all very dogged. An HVO soldier was no longer worth anything in the eyes of Nordbat. The respect we possibly had felt before was completely gone. As we are driving through the southern approach to Stupni Do the HVO has mined the passage under the railway viaduct we have to pass. On the other side is the mech inf platoon assigned to the southern approach. Colonel Henricsson gives the nearest HVO soldier a raging excoriation. The man is horror-struck and defends himself by saying he "just a soldier!". But he refuses to remove the mines and we simply drive up the slopes and over the railway. In the middle of the rail yard we greet the mech inf platoon heading the other way.

We are once again stopped at the checkpoint we forced our way through earlier that day. They don't intend to get run over again and have placed mines across the road. A furious colonel Henricsson jumps out of the SISU with his interpreter Ekenheim. Henricsson explains that the mines will be removed, or "we will blow your head off", pointing demonstratively at my heavy machinegun. The muzzle is pointed right at the HVO soldier's forehead and judging by his face it must have looked as if it was the muzzle of a howitzer. Ekenheim simultaneously translates Henricssons berating of the soldier, amusingly enough with the same lively gestures.

The entire crew of the vehicle is standing in the hatches, ready to fire. One man is even in a kneeling position on top of the vehicle. Our grim expressions and determined gazes makes the HVO soldiers realize that the discussion is over. None of them dare touch their guns. Nordbat is not negotiating anymore today.

When nothing happens colonel Henricsson picks up the first mine from the road himself and throws is carelessly at a pile of tires at a house wall. He picks up another mine and sends it in the same direction. Finally he forces the checkpoint commander as a final defeat to pick up the last mine himself. Stooped over he trots along with the mine in his hands. The road is clear and we continue.

In the same insane pace we continue our rampage in Vares for another few days. Nordbat Two is no longer negotiating about the "freedom of movement" the UN was entitled to according to an agreement with the fighting parties. Those who stand in our way we run over. As per order by colonel Henricsson we are authorized for immediate fire for effect. In his own words: "We shot the warning shot last Thursday".

In three days we sleep a total of a few hours. The little sleep we get is usually in a firing position at the camp with sleeping-bags wrapped around the body in order to not freeze to death. We eat frozen "pyttipanna” (hashed meat and potatoes) that we chisel from large tin cans. That's when someone suddenly realizes we're being benefit taxed for free food and lodging. For the same amount as if we had stayed at the Scandic Hotel eating entrecote.

The Canadian troops assigned to us as reinforcements consider us to be crazy already on the first day and leave us as they deem the situation to be too dangerous. Instead, a couple of days later we get reinforced by a company from the French foreign legion.

The non-Swedish UN-generals, who previously were sceptical towards Nordbat 2 changed their attitude in the blink of an eye after Vares. Comrades from my platoon were giving Ulf Henricsson a ride to the UN Headquarters at Kiseljak outside Sarajevo a couple of days after the climax.

In the old Olympic Games motel that housed "BH Command" there was a large canteen where all the personnel dined. When a small group of Swedish soldiers get in the food queue with colonel Henricsson up front everyone in the room stands up, from privates to generals, and applauds. Nordbat 2 had made themselves a reputation in Bosnia.

The British general and UN commander in Bosnia Sir Michael Rose, former chief of 22 SAS Regiment (and previously one of the strongest critics towards the Swedish presence) later wants the Swedish battalion to be a part of a special rapid reaction unit to be deployed in special situations anywhere in Bosnia. The Swedish government declined. Sir Michael Rose later wrote a debate article back home in the UK where the Swedish soldiers are mentioned as a shining example of how a conscript based military system also can produce soldiers of the highest international ranking.

One of the "suicidal" journalists on site in Vares was Anthony Lloyd, himself a former soldier in the British army and a Northern Ireland and Gulf War veteran. In his book "My war gone by, I miss it so" he mentions the Swedes in the following manner:

"The men inside (the APC) might have been UN but they were playing by a completely different set of rules.

They were Swedes; in terms of individual intelligence, integrity and single-mindedness I was to find them among the most impressive soldiers I had ever encountered.

In Vares their moment had come."

[Yard Ape]

I admit, my desire is for the US to pull completely out of NATO and for the European powers to take care of their own problems. Your own government does not seem to agree with you. In fact, the US has been one of the more vocal sources of objection to a formal European military agreement. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3210418.stm).
(Other references: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3210246.stm, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3199486.stm)


NATO is about collective defence. Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies?
The Soviet Union is gone, the Cold War was fought and won. NATO has outlived its mission.



Do you think the US is strong enough not to have any allies? (third time asking & still waiting for any answer)
For dealing with the resurgent Islam, Yes.
What about for dealing with all threats to the US?
All threats? I think China may be a worthy adversary, but that will be decades from now. Even when they develop a large modern navy, they won't pick a fight with the US if we can leave Asia to the Asians. I would point out that, in 1939, the Allies assumed a war with Hitler would be at least 5 years out and Stalin thought he had at least a year when Barbarossa was launched.


International law? Let me remind you that we fought a war for national independence 200yrs ago. If a bunch of global government types think they have authority over US, then I would say that it is time for another war for national independance.You believe that the US needs no allies in a world without international law? A world in which there would be no curbs on human rights violations, arms trade, and the proliferation of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons?

. . . or, maybe you see a world in which all other nations must abide by recognised rules while the US is free to to whatever it wants. Would you subject the world to something very similar to the situation the US fought to liberate itself from in its war of independence?

What are your thoughts on America Britain Canada Australia (ABCA)? (or probably could be ABCANZ) You don’t see the US sharing enough interests with Europe to maintain a military alliance. Do you see enough common interests within an “Anglosphere?”

[Luxembourger]

I admit, my desire is for the US to pull completely out of NATO and for the European powers to take care of their own problems.


The guy that bombed the building in Oklohoma in 1996 Tommothy MC veigh,,,,who killed many innocend americans,,,,he was a member of the michigan millitia wich was anti-government ,, he was anti nato and anti black and anti- un too. Concerning the UN; I too doubt of its capability in some fields,,,,but I nver wanted it to disapear, never!

with all my respect ,sometimes I really don t understand your opinion Sixgun. especially for the NATO issue .

[Yard Ape]

Questions you still have chose to skip:
[list]Do you see the key to American security being the deportation of the 7 million US Muslims?

[Sixgun Symphony]

this is why we europeans went to bosnia




It was a war for Europeans to fight. The US does not, should not be dragged into your wars.

[Sixgun Symphony]

[quote]

with all my respect ,sometimes I really don t understand your opinion Sixgun. especially for the NATO issue .


Ideally, the USA would adopt armed nuetrality like the Swiss.

BTW, the cold war is over and NATO has outlived its mission. If there is to be a military alliance in Europe, then it should be an EU alliance.

[Yard Ape]

Ideally, the USA would adopt armed nuetrality like the Swiss. This policy was proven not to work in both world wars. The US thought it could live an isolated existance, but events in the world forced the country to fight both times. You cannot pretend that the US can live behind its borders unaffected by the outside world.

[SeanAshi]

If he ever existed Jesus would propably have turned over in his graveJesus isn't in a grave He's livin it up with Elvis

[Sixgun Symphony]

You believe that the US needs no allies in a world without international law? A world in which there would be no curbs on human rights violations, arms trade, and the proliferation of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons?

The internationalists are the people most upset by our war in Iraq to keep a murderous dictator from developing WMD's

So bugger them.

Ideally, the US would adopt Swiss style armed nuetrality and the rest of the world can take care of itself.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Ideally, the USA would adopt armed nuetrality like the Swiss. This policy was proven not to work in both world wars. The US thought it could live an isolated existance, but events in the world forced the country to fight both times. You cannot pretend that the US can live behind its borders unaffected by the outside world.

We should have avoided the Spanish-American War and the First World War.

We were caught unprepared for WWII, that is why I emphasize armed nuetrality.

[Yard Ape]

We should have avoided ... the First World War. Another country used military force to restrict US trade (German U-Boat campaign). It sounds like you want the US to be an international door mat?

[Sixgun Symphony]

By that logic, England should have declared war on the USA because of the naval blockade on the Confederacy during the Civil War.

Southern cotton was very importiant to the textile mills in England.

[Yard Ape]

How do you belive isolationism will protect the US in a world without allies or international law (as you don't believe thier is a need for either)?

[SeanAshi]

Actually we should have avoided the civil war and hanged all the traitor Confederacy, We should have went head first into WWI and WWII

[hank]

isolationalism? hexnut hegemophony - do you really espouse isolationalism? Even assuming we could maintain our military in an isolationaist regime, which is a big assumption, how do you account for the fact that our country is not, and cannot be, self-sufficient?

Many people have proposed, and a few have even adopted isolationist views. The only consistent result is failure and escalation of the problem.

Where did you read this? I know you did not think of it, but who did?

hank

[haze99]

Nice posts, if Darwin was here to read some of these, I'm sure he would love it! Hell, he might start his own forum! (Assuming Darwin was real?)

Ahh, let me go watch some MTV.

[usa320]

My only comments on this are the following:

We have ousted the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein. We saved millions of lives by doing so.

The troops are under the control the the US, not the UN. Get over it. The UN lacks the military intelligence and forces that we have.



Halting all the CIA's operations would contradict his own arguments that the CIA wasnt doing enough before 9-11.

It would also put our country at an extreme risk to do so.

No more covert operations to take out terrorists. No more spy satellites to see the battlefield. No more UAV's to take out small targets without putting troops or civilians in harms way.

Eliminating the CIA would be very dangerous thing to do.

[Yard Ape]

How do you belive isolationism will protect the US in a world without allies or international law (as you don't believe thier is a need for either)?


Do you see the key to American security being the deportation of the 7 million US Muslims?

[Sixgun Symphony]

Actually we should have avoided the civil war and hanged all the traitor Confederacy, We should have went head first into WWI and WWII


The states had much more soveriegnty before the civil war. One used to speak of the United States as these united states rather than the United States.

The point in dispute was if states that could enter freely into the union would also be free to leave the union.

[Sixgun Symphony]

How do you belive isolationism will protect the US in a world without allies or international law (as you don't believe thier is a need for either)?

It is a strong military that protects the USA. Again, I emphasize armed nuetrality.

[Sixgun Symphony]

My only comments on this are the following:

We have ousted the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein. We saved millions of lives by doing so.

The troops are under the control the the US, not the UN. Get over it. The UN lacks the military intelligence and forces that we have.



Halting all the CIA's operations would contradict his own arguments that the CIA wasnt doing enough before 9-11.

It would also put our country at an extreme risk to do so.

No more covert operations to take out terrorists. No more spy satellites to see the battlefield. No more UAV's to take out small targets without putting troops or civilians in harms way.

Eliminating the CIA would be very dangerous thing to do.


Ditto,

The US can look to its own interests in the world. It does not need the meddling of the UN.

[Ballistic]

We die together as one species. We can't survive divided. There's simply no way to do it. It's cost prohibitive, and there are some dang smart folks around the world. Take IIT, India's prime tech school that rivals MIT and Caltech. Without them, can we make it? And what about the costs of surviving?

I'm talking about space.

Will anti-internationalists be willing to work with others on projects to Mars, the Kuiper Belt, the Jovian moon Europa, or to the Oort Cloud eventually? All of these projects are necessary for our survival.

I very much want my country, the United States of America, to continue. That is a major reason why I was (and am, depending on who you ask) a professional soldier. I also very much want my species, homo sapiens sapiens, to continue, to survive. If we wait until things get real bad with this, then it is too late. I realize the insufficiencies of my nation, and am hopeful of the idea that many nations can work together to ensure our mutual survival. I've read and studied enough hard science to be very aware of our interdependence and to think of myself not just as an American, but as a human.

We are at a threshhold in human history like none humans have ever seen before. There have been wars where a nation's survival, or a people's survival, have been threatened. But today, this year, this decade, this century, this is the point in history where the survival as a species is so very uncertain. And unlike the dodos and the roughly 10,000 species a year, we can do something about it. We need to conciously make a decision to act as a species, as a world, but it can be done. I just hope and pray that it will.

At this threshhold, there is so much opportunity for good, for amazing things to happen; awesome and wonderful things in the strictest senses of the words-full of awe and wonder. The Muslims put zero into common use. Central Americans studied the stars, as did the ancient Chinese, if I'm not mistaken. The list goes on and on. I'm willing to put my hand out to the Muslims, to the Central Americans, to the Chinese, to everyone, if that's what it will take for our species to survive. Let us be Machiavellian-ruthless, taking what means to our ends are necessary-in ensuring our species survives. We can afford to do no less.

So will the conservatives meet my hand? Or should we, as a nation and a people, take the self-concerned isolationist route which will still not save us?

I keep reediting this and adding to it, don't I? I should probably just rewrite it as one piece, maybe. Just wondering, and just some food for thought if anyone wants it. Have a good one, and as always, just some thoughts...

How very true. Well written Tane. :hug: woot

[Sixgun Symphony]

That post just goes to show that the supporters of the UN really do want a global government.

Alot of the foreign socialists just want to have some control over the USA. This is another reason to oppose the UN.

[Ballistic]

That post just goes to show that the supporters of the UN really do want a global government.

Alot of the foreign socialists just want to have some control over the USA. This is another reason to oppose the UN.

What would be so wrong with a Global government (ofcourse still have local/national governments or representatives of all nations) ? Think of the achievements that could be made if just the human race could act as one, under one banner, instead of the divided nationalistic approach that you seem to long for and what is currently happening. Segregation is not the way for humanity to survive, it's coming together, working out the problems, forming a solution and putting those solutions to practice that will make and allow humanity to survive both out there and RIGHT HERE and now !! Both are as equally important.

I dont know if the UN is the way for this to all happen, perhaps the UN should be restructered, new laws made, be a bit (or alot) more proactive, but the future of our survival depends on making the right choices now. Being divided at a time like this is no way for humanity to advance in all possible endeavours. Opposing the UN is no way to make things better, it will only make things worse.

Thats my rant/preach over and done with. :D

[Sixgun Symphony]

Big government may be attractive to socialists, but we Americans cherish our independance.

[Ballistic]

Big government may be attractive to socialists, but we Americans cherish our independance.

Independence can only get you so far. And I'm sorry, but thats a very arrogant point of view.

By the way, do you have to put everything into a particular political ideology ?? There are more important things in life than one persons political point of view.

[haze99]

You ask for a global government? Do you realize the implications of such a request? There will come a time when,you will bow down to this global leader in worship to him. (oh, but the world will not be a better place!)

[Yard Ape]

How do you belive isolationism will protect the US in a world without allies or international law (as you don't believe thier is a need for either)?

It is a strong military that protects the USA. Again, I emphasize armed nuetrality.How do they protect the US citizens against a world in which there would be no curbs on human rights violations, arms trade, and the proliferation of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons?

[Ballistic]

You ask for a global government? Do you realize the implications of such a request? There will come a time when,you will bow down to this global leader in worship to him. (oh, but the world will not be a better place!)

Thats not a very well thought out comment to say the least. I acknowledge there will be large implications for setting up such a leadership, but in no way should or would it be like one man...(I would perhaps say a governing body made up of all representatives of all countries like the UN)...controlling the entire Earth. That is not what it should be like.

But to continue to be seperated because of petty nationalism and blind arrogance will sink humanity into a worse state than it is now. We are capable of some fantastic things, if only we work together and stop fighting each other. The US, with it's strong arm and global reach should be a voice for this sort of future goal. But anyway, they are my thoughts.

Read my sig, you'll get an idea of what Im talking about. Said by Martin Luther King Jr.

[haze99]

Poverty of spirit, how do you suppose, that mankind overcome this?

I know of only one person who is able to do this.[/b]

[Yard Ape]

You ask for a global government? Do you realize the implications of such a request? There will come a time when,you will bow down to this global leader in worship to him. (oh, but the world will not be a better place!)This is fear mongering. If this were true, then one could also say of a US citizen that "There will come a time when,you will bow down to this US President in worship to him." Is this a fear you wake to every morning, or is it possible to produce constitutional protections against such a thing?

The world is not ready for a global government (and will not likely be ready during any of our lifetimes). However, does this then mean that we cannot establish a system of global cooperation? of global justice?

[Yard Ape]

We have ousted the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein. We saved millions of lives by doing so.

The troops are under the control the the US, not the UN. Get over it. The UN lacks the military intelligence and forces that we have.I must have missed where someone got hung-up on the US commanding its own troops in Iraq. Why should the US not lead its troops? I under stand arguments that the US should have waited for UN approval to go into Iraq, but I also think that the UN is slow & inefficient at times. It is more preoccupied with war aversion than seeking global justice (through force where necessary).

You have hit on the principle reason why Kerry would have been wrong to insist US troops deploy under UN control. That is the UN’s military inefficiency. In pursuit of global justice, it may seem noble to only deploy on operations sanctioned by the UN, but again we run back into the problem of the UN being too averse to using force when it is required. Possibly it is time to overhaul this organisation (but not to abolish).

[Sixgun Symphony]

How do they protect the US citizens against a world in which there would be no curbs on human rights violations, arms trade, and the proliferation of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons?

The US is doing just fine with unilateral action.

[Yard Ape]

The US is doing just fine with unilateral action.You spend an awfull amount of time on orange alert & canceling airtravel from other countries for a country that is doing "just fine."

Afghanistan was not unilateral. It was done with the full support of NATO and approved by the UN. It has reduced the terrorist threat against the US.

Iraq was unilateral and, while I belive it was the right thing to do, I do not belive it has reduced the terrorist threat to the US.

If your government decides that Iran or Syria must be invaded tomorrow to further reduce terrorist infrastructure, will the US still be strong enough to have no allies?

[Sixgun Symphony]

Big government may be attractive to socialists, but we Americans cherish our independance.

Independence can only get you so far. And I'm sorry, but thats a very arrogant point of view.

By the way, do you have to put everything into a particular political ideology ?? There are more important things in life than one persons political point of view.

Arrogant?

You are the ones that want to impose a global dictatorship. Now that is what I call arrogant.

Judging a persons ideology is importiant when assessing a persons motivations.

[Sixgun Symphony]

If your government decides that Iran or Syria must be invaded tomorrow to further reduce terrorist infrastructure, will the US still be strong enough to have no allies?

We are literally fighting this war with one arm tied behind our back. There is nowhere near the national effort being put into this war that we put into our own Civil War and WWII.

I also see alot of troops being deployed in unnecessary places. An example is NATO, an organization that has outlived its mission. We really should pull our troops out of Europe, the Soviet Union and its Red Army are gone. Better that our troops be deployed where we need them.

If it were up to me, I would use them to restore some law and order on our southern border with Mexico. That would do much more for US national security than to have them remain sitting in Germany.

BTW, you know that those European airliners were turned back because they refused to take the reasonable precautions of having armed skymarshall's on board their flights. With so many Arabs with European passports, I think it prudent for these European airliners to use armed skymarshall's so as to avert another hijacking.

[haze99]

:| Global Justice? Global cooperation? Isn't this what the UN is for? Or did I miss something?

Not well thought out? Fear mongering? Do you actually believe that?

Yard Ape and Ballistic., what kind of future do you foresee for this planet?

[Sixgun Symphony]

However, does this then mean that we cannot establish a system of global cooperation? of global justice?

Whose justice?

Most of Europe does not have a death penalty for murderers, rapists, and drug smugglers/peddlers. So I don't see any justice there.

[Yard Ape]

You are the ones that want to impose a global dictatorship. Now that is what I call arrogant."Dictatorship" is a word you have chosen to add. Nobody wants a global dictatorship, and only fearmongers suggest this is the objective of the UN.

If the US can exist without slipping into dictatorship, then a democratic global government could do the same.


Global Justice? Global cooperation? Isn't this what the UN is for? Or did I miss something?Apparently you did miss something, because I was defending the UN when I used those terms in posts. This thread has seen suggestions to eliminate the UN and those who equate it with a global government. Like here:
That post just goes to show that the supporters of the UN really do want a global government.


what kind of future do you foresee for this planet? One with a strong UN in which international law is enforced & human rights are protected from violent & oppressive regimes.

[Yard Ape]

However, does this then mean that we cannot establish a system of global cooperation? of global justice?

Whose justice?

Most of Europe does not have a death penalty for murderers, rapists, and drug smugglers/peddlers. So I don't see any justice there.That is a narrow view. Global justice is about achieving the greater good. Protecting victims is more important that punishing the guilty (but the punisment part is also a part of it). It is about deploying soldiers to the FRY to prevent genocied instead of saying "it is a European war so leave it alone." It is about replacing regimes which are oppressive instead of saying "Saddam has not done anyting today." It is about giving a damn about the lives of people outside our own countries. Right now, it is just a dream.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Sorry, but the Balkan wars could have been won by any one of the European powers. France, Britain, Italy... take your pick.

It is not for the US to be policeman of the world. The Europeans have lived under the US defense umbrella for too long. The Europeans need to take care of their own affairs.

My point about justice is 'whose justice'. The meaning of justice varies greatly. Up over in Britain, they put a man named Tony Martin in prison because he was a danger to burglars. Their warped concept of justice was to put a man in prison for defending his home against burglars.

Now I see these crazy people want to spread their sense of "justice" on the world. Bugger that!

[Yard Ape]

It is not for the US to be policeman of the world. You are right. The world should police itself as a collective under a more hawkish UN.

[Sixgun Symphony]

If the US can exist without slipping into dictatorship, then a democratic global government could do the same.


There it is, this guy wants a global government.

He wants a global government over the USA because they want power over the USA.

Phuk that! There will be another war for national independance before that happens.

[Sixgun Symphony]

It is not for the US to be policeman of the world. You are right. The world should police itself as a collective under a more hawkish UN.

I got a better idea, we dissolve the UN.

World government = imperialism.

[Yard Ape]

If the US can exist without slipping into dictatorship, then a democratic global government could do the same.
There it is, this guy wants a global government. You are paranoid. If you read back, you will see that I have already clearly stated that the world is not ready for such a government and is not likely to be ready for centuries. I was pointing out the stupidity of an argument which suggests a global government would, by default, be a dictatorship.


He wants a global government over the USA because they want power over the USA.It is foolish to belive that the US would be the only country to find itself with a lesser voice in a global democracy. All western nations would be in the same position while third world nations would find a much stronger voice. Economic strength would no longer be the decieding factor.




It is not for the US to be policeman of the world. You are right. The world should police itself as a collective under a more hawkish UN.

I got a better idea, we dissolve the UN.So you can sit back behind your boarders and watch millions die, through genocide & crimes against humanity, without feeling guilty about doing nothing to prevent atrocities (which are within your power to stop) because they happen as part of “European wars”, “African wars”, or “Asian wars.”

Is your lack of sympathy for your fellow human being a by product of selfishness or being too lazy to care?

[Yard Ape]

From The Israeli barrier doesn't belong in court (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=159677#159677)
International Court? The very existence of an 'international court' violates national soveriegnty. No foreign power shall have authority over any soveriegn nation.

You euro-socialists want a world government because you want to control the world. You are imperialists.
So full of hate. To the Dark Side, you will go.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Hate?

I love my country and would defend it from enemies like you.

[Yard Ape]

Yes hate. You seem to hate everybody who is not from your country. We are all enemies, liberals, commies, nazis, euro-socialists, etc.

. . . and on a related note, I see in another thread you are once again espousing that Israel must deport all Muslims for its security, just as you stated in the Pat Buchanan thread, and just as you said about France deporting its Muslims to Africa. You have accused Canada of being a threat to US security because of its Muslim population. Yet, you still have not answered my question:

Do you think the US must eject in 7 million Muslim citizens to ensure its security?

[Sixgun Symphony]

You are the imperialist.

Global court, global government, global dictatorship.

[Yard Ape]

What do you say to those who belive that the US has become the global dictator?

[James]

I think it would be great if Khofi Annan was able to be our president. We should also make the UN responsible for America's national security and law enforcement, all the way down to the local level.

[Yard Ape]

International Court?

More of the global government B/S.
A national court? Where people can sue people from other states? Bah... what's the use in that?!
Justice shouldn't have borders.

You mean "international" court. The very concept is a violation of national soveriegnty. Imperialism really.
You didn't get the sarcasm. The only difference between a national and an international court should be well...just like the difference between a state and a national court. Jurisdiction and all that. National sovereignty and all that is nice, but why let it obstruct justice? Imperialism...by who?!



International Court? The very existance of an 'international court' violates national soveriegnty.
No foreign power shall have authority over any soveriegn nation.
Oh really so the War Crimes sought by the USA and the West on The Serbians,and Croations,and the Muslims then are in your eyes illegal,and have no authority what so ever ?
By the very statement you made there it also means that you have no authority whatsoever over Iraq/Afghanistan,and therefore have no Authority over what happens to Saddam Hussein?

You euro-socialists want a world government because you want to control the world. You are imperialists.
Look into the mirror and see who wants to control the world buddy! From here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=159677#159677)

[Sixgun Symphony]

What do you say to those who belive that the US has become the global dictator?

They are the anti-Americans who wish for the UN to control, if not destroy America.

[cut]

You are the imperialist.

Global court, global government, global dictatorship.

rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Haiw]

They are the anti-Americans who wish for the UN to control, if not destroy America.
Put on the tin foil hats!!!!! They're gonna take over!!!'
Aaaaah isn't it nice, everything in the world being so nicely black & white without any shades of gray...

Quit teasing the troll James ;)

[haze99]

:bash: 10 pages of posts, yea, there is global cooperation for you! I think this horse is dead? Let's bury the bones now.

[Yard Ape]

but it has gotten sooo amusing . . .




If your government decides that Iran or Syria must be invaded tomorrow to further reduce terrorist infrastructure, will the US still be strong enough to have no allies?

We are literally fighting this war with one arm tied behind our back. There is nowhere near the national effort being put into this war that we put into our own Civil War and WWII.So, rather than have allies, you would prefer a US with universal conscription, government managed industry, and rationing of consumer goods?

[martinexsquaddie]

come on out sixgun
the soviet/un armored columns here to collect your guns rofl
please hurry were on a meter and we've got californa joes collection to pick up yet rofl
where the hell are we suppoused to put all this stuff anyway you seen the storage in a bmp :lol:

[Yard Ape]

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.

I see you are once again espousing that Israel must deport all Muslims for its security, just as you stated in the Pat Buchanan thread, and just as you said about the FRY deporting its Muslims to Africa. You have accused Canada of being a threat to US security because of its Muslim population. And, you have suggested France & Britain are ticking time bombs because of their Muslim populations. Yet, you still have not answered this one question:

Do you think the US must eject its 7 million Muslim citizens to ensure its security?
from here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=162341#162341)

Why do you keep running from this question (now in three threads in which you have raised the topic).

[Sixgun Symphony]

So, rather than have allies, you would prefer a US with universal conscription, government managed industry, and rationing of consumer goods?


Our allies have been living under the US defense umbrella for much of the Cold War years and even today. It is why so many of the Europeans could spend so much money on their welfare states rather than on military spending.

A case in point, back in the 1980's the US had a 600 ship fleet with about a dozen nuclear powered aircraft carriers. Can any European country say the same? Can all of Europe come even close?

The French and other Europeans demand that the USA only act "multilateral". What they really want is control of US foriegn policy.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yard Ape,

Show me where you got your 7 million figure. I don't see that many musims.

If there are that many here, then I think we need to reform our immigration laws. A few thousands of muslims can be cut off from their native culture and be assimilated. But millions will not assimilate and will be a security risk.

If they have not yet been naturalized citizens, then we should ship 'em back to their native lands.

[Yard Ape]

So, rather than have allies, you would prefer a US with universal conscription, government managed industry, and rationing of consumer goods?
Our allies have been living under the US defense umbrella for much of the Cold War years and even today. It is why so many of the Europeans could spend so much money on their welfare states rather than on military spending.

A case in point, back in the 1980's the US had a 600 ship fleet with about a dozen nuclear powered aircraft carriers. Can any European country say the same? Can all of Europe come even close? You should run for office. You did not even try to answer the question in this quote.

[Yard Ape]

Show me where you got your 7 million figure. I don't see that many musims. I have already done that. Go back & have a look (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=147751#147751)


If there are that many here, then I think we need to reform our immigration laws. A few thousands of muslims can be cut off from their native culture and be assimilated. But millions will not assimilate and will be a security risk.When you say "assimilate" do you mean that they must all become god fearing Christians, or just adopt Jeudo-Christian values? Would they be allowed to lean to the political left?

[Sixgun Symphony]

You should run for office. You did not even try to answer the question in the quote.

It did answer the question. We can build up a most formidable force without having to mobilize the country for war as we did in the Civil War and WWII.

Now suppose we did mobilize the country like we did in WWII. With a population of almost 300 million and the largest economy in the world.... :D Damn! That is going to be some force.

[Sixgun Symphony]

When you say "assimilate" do you mean that they must all become god fearing Christians, or just adopt Jeudo-Christian values? Would they be allowed to lean to the political left?

Looking at your source, the vast majority of these muslims are recent immigrants.

Leaning to the Left? Going by the information from your source, most of these muslims came in during the leftist Clinton Administration.

Just goes to show that the Leftists and the muslims share common ground in wanting to destroy Western Civilization.

[Yard Ape]

Just goes to show that the Leftists and the muslims share common ground in wanting to destroy Western Civilization.Again, the politician in you has circled the question. What do you mean by:
A few thousands of muslims can ... be assimilated.What is the standard of "assimilation" that you feel needs to be achieved?