SWAT vs Military

[96B]

I believe most of us have seen the TV series Combat Missions on USA. Why did the SWAT team guys do so good compared to the military guys? Are SWAT cops really that much better than SEALs, Force Recon, or even Delta and CIA types? I understand that they must be pretty good because of fairly constant real world situations and practice but I just find it very hard to believe they are better than the military or paramilitary units. The SWAT dudes not only did as good or better than the military in CQB but even better on the battlefield for which they arent even trained!

[Ratamacue]

It's called pre-determined results. Everything to do with that show was fake and you should know it.

[hood]

So you're saying that all those real military guys who supposedly aren't fake military guys, are lying to everybody?

[96B]

I think one thing that had to do with it was the fact that the SWAT cops on there were probably the better ones in their respective Police Departments but all the military guys were also retired and had been out of the training for a while. I still feel like the show in a sense was setup in some ways. I thought it was outrageous that the military was not doing so good at all but at the end it was downright stupid when it came down to three guys (2 cops, 1 SEAL) and the SEAL didnt even put the ammo in the gun right and it jammed up supposedly disqualifying him.

[GearGod]

DELTA/DEVGROUP can kick SWATs @$$ any day

[18C4V]

I remember when combat missons was asking for volunteers for their show. However, active duty, national guard, and reserve forces were not allowed to participate in that show.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Jeff Everage and Jeff Byers(two of the SEALs) are both Naval reservists.

[Ratamacue]

I didn't say that the men weren't actual operators, but rather that the show was rigged for the start. It's pretty obvious just by looking at camerawork of the "combat."

One example would be 2 of the enemy guards were sitting by a shack. One of the "good guys" started firing at them from maybe 100 feet away (I believe the guy was SEAL or former SEAL) and missed about 5 shots. That in itself was pretty damn unlikely, but what I love is that after they fired (using MILES equipment of course), there was suddenly a cameraman filming the guards that wasn't there before, and as the good guy fired, dust was kicking up around them as if bullets were hitting the ground. Hmm.....

Once again, I never said that the guys who were acting in the show weren't Military/SWAT/retired.

[BiZ]

I haven't seen the show, nor am I even from the US obviously, but I think you should keep in mind that you can't lump every Tactical Police officer (ie SWAT etc) into one basket.

The FBI HRT is with regards to to CT and CQB on par with any Military CT unit simply because they train together and are there for the same job.

Other top class SWAT units such as LADP SWAT and NYPD ESU would be able to manage staying with (their best operators) with top class Military SF units as well, in the areas of CT and CQB, not nessasrily a combat recce type op in a normal military type environment.

I know for a fact over here in Australia our state Police Tactical teams shoot to SASR CT standards, train with SASR TAG, and use similar gear, equipment and tactics etc and are required by Federal agreement to be at SASR TAG standards.

This would be the case with the top US SWAT teams too, so be careful when you think that a Miliatry Special Operations soldier could kick any SWAT guy at any testing etc.

The one thing SASR TAG troopers are jealous about with the state Police is the "real world" application of their training on a daily basis.... :D

[Chops]

BiZ

As an aside, I found it humourous to note that the SASR PAG course (Police Assault Group) has been renamed the PTG course (Police Tactical Group); CQB has been renamed CQDT for Close Quarter Defensive Tactics; and the state police units now provide their own instructors rather than train under CT Wing guys.

Political correctness is running rampant....

Incredible..

rgds

Chops

[96B]

Its fair to say the top class SWAT teams across the US (NY, LA etc) are probably on par in some ways with most military units but I think going as far as saying they are even comparable to CAG/DEVGRU is dreaming. The closest they can come would likely be HRT which do train alongside their military counterparts. I do not know much about police in the UK but I am pretty sure it is safe to say that no police unit there is on par with 22nd either. Chops, if I am wrong, please fill me in mate ;)

[Seraphim]

SWAT is never gonna be better then CAG, DEVGRU and the like. But how bout Rangers and Green Berets?

[Chops]

Semper

No you're right. Police teams do train with 22 in the UK but from what I've seen none are on par with the SP teams- far from it. It stands to reason in a way- Regiment crews are training every day whilst on the SP rotation unless they're deployed, police teams are on callouts a lot of the time.

SO19 in London have a huge number of shouts every year and their ARV crews are even busier. Now the overwhelming majority of these shouts are resolved without shots fired but obviously their operational role eats into their training scheds.

Here's something which will surprise non UK folks- most units in the UK are not issued automatic or even burst fire capable weapons. SO19 are using the MP5SF and the newly arrived G36SF- semi only. They do have a few full auto MP5Ks and SDs available but as a rule it's SF selector groups only.

I think BiZ may have been a touch generous to some of the Australian police teams too ;) . Some of them, or more specifically some of their officers, are extremely good and could cut the mustard with SASR or their international ilk. Generally though, although very good and better than a lot of UK teams, Australian police teams would not be at the same edge as either of the TAG units.

rgds

Chops

[JiJoMacLE45]

HRT is not a SWAT team, HRT is a full-fledged CT unit that ranks up their among the most elite, counterterrorist teams in the world. Very few American SWAT teams have a legit hostage rescue/full fledged CQB capability. The FBI has SWAT teams run out of their field offices, part time teams made up of special agents who work regular case loads, and even these teams are not capable of handling the H/R portfolio in most cases with all the money and resources the fibbies get thrown at them. Both of the tac teams in Los Angeles, LAPD's SWAT and the County's SED, Miami-Dade's SRT, Chicago's HBT, Philadelphia SWAT, and NYPD ESU are a few of these that can even attempt it. You're talking about large departments that have resources to maintain and train full-time tactical response units that can handle these situations. The majority of PDs have part-time tac units, made up of officers who work patrol and CID and admin who get together for about ten to twenty hours 'a month' for training, that is when they are not in court or working overtime or doing special duty. My department has a dedicated 15 man part-time SWAT team the 'Crisis Management Tactical Team'(gotta be PC) and recently 10 of us went through CMTT training thanks to a grant from the HSD to augment the team(basically we get to stand around dressed for the party while they get to do all the dancing). Our team trains thirty-five to forty hours a month, takes a yearly training trip, and handles about six to twelve callups a month(usually goes up to fifteen or twenty a month during summer time). Now let me tell ya, only in extreme circumstances would we even attempt a hostage rescue. We just do not have the capabilities to do that type of job and neither do most other SWAT teams. The full time big city squads are a different story. They spend all their time training, when they are not out kicking doors, and tac work is their life. Now they might not be trained up to Delta or 22 standards, but when it comes to CQB these guys are top notch.

[BiZ]

Chops, the PC modifying of the Police course names happend some years ago now, mid 1990's if memory serves me correctly. One of those things purely designed for the media and their ilk. The PTG courses with regards to opposed entries and forced entries etc and dealt with by their respective agencies training officers but TAG assistance and advisors are still in evidence. Keep in mind that a PTG's role is quite different to a TAG role with regards to their primary function, CT is only one of their roles.

I'm not being too generous with regards to some Aussie PTGs when I refer to the Victorian SOG and the NSW SPG TOU. Both are top class full-time units that regularily train for Aircraft and water borne assaults as part of CT training and under SAC-PAV all PTG units must meet the SAS TAG standards for CT ops qualification.

But...... here it is, the but.....when I was reffering to US SWAT teams, I was trying to get across that they shoot (tactically) to the same level having the same requirements (in the top class units) as probably units such as Devgru/CAG etc etc. Obviosuly a full time Military SF unit will win with regards to the broader spectrum of fast ropping assaults and multiple opposed entry situation etc, but when it comes to shooting skills a quality SWAT team should by their very nature be able to keep pace with top class Military units. (Should being the operative word here)

Aussie PTG's shoot to SASR TAG standards, eg: 0 misses allowed for qualification shoots or you're instantly binned. Many operators have seen their careers end on the first day of qualification beacuse of this, but that's life, if you can't cut it today right here and now, when can you?

Obviously I cannot comment on US SWAT teams from a personal pespective but I'd share the view with others that most couldn't cut the mustard with their Military counterparts in most areas.

Fundametal basics for a SWAT team such as shooting, CQB and opposed entry drills should be of the standard reached by the Military units though, otherwise they may as well not bother at all.

Over here we have only State Police (and a Federal Police similar in many ways to the FBI) and each state has their own Tactical team, thereby making standards, training and interoperability easier than the US where every agency such as dog catchers seem to have a so called "SWAT" type unit.
I'm not criticising US SWAT teams, I'm just pointing out that it's easier to organise standard training, federal funding and joint TAG training, and maintain a high standard when their are only 8 Police tactical teams in the Country. Therefore I'm not being too generous when I compliment any Aussie PTG, theyre not all great, but they meet the minimun TAG CT course requirements so must be doing something right.



With regards to the Mets SO19, from what I've seen of them they're no-where near the UK SAS CT level when compared to units over here. They have a different function and role, since general Police are unarmed, and have ceratin restrictions with their role and duties. Not to say they're not a good Police team, just that they're not in the "class" that I was orignally trying to paint the picture for.

[Chops]

BiZ

Agreed entirely old mate. As regards the PTG course, I always understood that the programme that brings them up to SAC PAV mandated standard (I think it was called the Advanced PAG Course) was only run twice a year and that only limited operators from each state attended. Thus you had some units with a fair number of non SASR CT standard operators on ops? Let me know how it works these days please mate?

Yeah I knew the name changes were a few moons ago- I havent lived full time in Oz for any reasonable length since about '96 so my info is a tad dated (much like myself some unkind observers might say ;) ). Are the NSW TRGs being included in the PTG sched these days or is it still just TOU? Do the TRGs still even exist? VicPol SOG I know have always had a great relationship with the Regiment as have SERT out of my old stomping grounds, the Sunshine State :lol:

Wasnt there a book published by some academic on the whole SAC PAV development and it's implications for PTGs?

As for SO19- interesting unit. Spilt into two- the ARVs are the 'public face' which consist of six or so cars deployed in any one shift period to provide an an immediate armed response across the capital. These three man crews carry two MP5SFs on-board, limited tactical kit (light sources, flashbangs, limited MOE set, ballistic shield etc) and all three carry Glock 17s. They might be going over to the G36SF- more concealable body armour round these days but I'm not sure on that.

They carry out a vaguely similar function to the old TRGs in NSW- first responders and containment at armed incidents or carrying out armed support for planned ops/raids etc. If the situation is sufficiently grave (hostage taking, seige/strongholed suspect, any CT), a full team from SO19 will respond. These are much more like Australian PTGs- full kit, chemicals/ distraction munitions, snipers, armoured Landies etc.

They are good but the standard generally does not appear to match the SP boys as far as opposed entries and the hardcore end. I'm taking a WAG here to an extent but an educated WAG when I say that this may be partly down to the opportunities available for maintaining high rate training scheds.

Some food for thought...

rgds

Chops

[Duke]

Is this the show, I think that was on WUSA, which ran a commerical with a black DI saying, "FACE ME LIKE A MAN!". cheeeezy

[budanski]

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2003/Apr/0427A1star.jpg

Detective Doug Parsons, left, follows Officer Kevin Moroney of the Columbia Police Department through a door and a smoke screen yesterday during a four-man tactical team competition in Boone County at the Midwest SWAT/Submachine Gun Championships. About 56 specially trained officers participated in the event.


Police take aim in competition
SWAT championship sharpens gun skills.

By JAMES GOODWIN of the Tribune's staff
Published Sunday, April 27, 2003 (http://www.columbiatribune.com/2003/Apr/20030427News004.asp)

Amid the "pop-pop-pop" of submachine guns and the "ting" of iron targets, Rob Ernst sprawled peacefully yesterday on a strip of grass, eyeing his colleagues.

A member of a SWAT patrol team with the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department, Ernst didn't mind taking a little work home this weekend by competing at the Midwest SWAT/Submachine Gun Championships.

The event at the Green Valley Rifle & Pistol Club is a regional olympics of sorts for people who carry automatic weapons for a living

Waiting for his team's turn in the four-man competition, Ernst described the thrill of his job, which is to patrol some of the most crime-ridden neighborhoods in St. Louis.

"It's the camaraderie with the guys, because we're very close, the teamwork. You get to play with great toys," said Ernst, who has been wounded on the job.

Great excitement comes with being on a Special Weapons and Tactics team, he said. However, "I think the rush is down on the ladder, because it's always a thinking man's game. You've always got to have a plan."

Part of that plan is preparedness, the whole point behind the submachine gun championships.

"Since shooting is a perishable skill, we have to bring them out here periodically to keep it up," said Capt. Tom Dresner, commander of the Columbia Police Department's Special Tactics and Response Team.

Although Mitch Brim, a Shawnee, Kan., officer, placed first overall in the individual events, the rest of the top six places were held by Columbia police. Sgt. Bryan Piester and Detective Doug Parsons finished second and third, respectively, in a field of 56 participants.

The competition consisted of various simulated scenarios, all timed, that required shooters to distinguish between "hostile targets" and "hostages."

In one, the shooter was required to run 25 yards past two sheets of plywood and stop before a third. There, he kicked over a plastic bucket to reveal a red, yellow or blue marker underneath. The colors are coordinated with colored targets farther down the course. The color under the bucket stands for the color of a "hostage" the shooter must avoid hitting.

The exercise required each shooter to kick over four buckets and take four corresponding shots, the last with a handgun and the first three with a lightweight submachine gun.

"These are the same kind of weapons you see in Mel Gibson movies, but the way that you see them on TV is not accurate," said Columbia police Officer Scott Young, a co-director of yesterday's championships.

Because SWAT team members tend to work in congested areas, "That crazy full-burst, run-and-spray stuff that you see in the movies is out," he said.

Similar scenarios were set up for two- and four-man teams. In the two-man team event, Piester and Columbia Detective Brian Liebhart placed first. The Minneapolis Police Department won the four-man team competition, and a Columbia team composed of Piester, Parsons, Liebhart and Officer Kevin Moroney took second.

Deputy Trevor Fowler, a member of the Boone County Emergency Response Team, which also competed, said he thought Columbia police held their own yesterday.

"The general public needs to know that a small community like Columbia is doing what some of the larger metro areas are doing," Fowler said. "We?re competing with them. I'm kind of proud of that."[/i]

[seventy6er]

DELTA/DEVGROUP can kick SWATs @$$ any day


SWAT is never gonna be better then CAG, DEVGRU and the like.

sounds a lil like kids comparin' their favourite football-teams to me... :roll:

[JTFazz]

I think that Ratamacue is referring to the post-production mixing of "staged" for dramatic effect scenes with the actual competition. I always thought it looked hokey to film the obvious what-ratamacue-called fake scenes and blend them with the actual film or tape of the competitive portion of the game. Almost all of the pyrotechnic effects were done after the real competition was over and then edited in to sort of flesh out the story.

But I do not agree that the results were pre-determined. It really was a bad show by Mark Burnett's standards. I am not sure how they could have made it "look cool" and at the same time keep the competitors shielded from serious, unnecessary injury.

[BT_Recon]

does anyone have any footage of those SWAT comp/demonstrations on their computers or know of any on the net that i could have a look at... have always been a fan of they type of thing.
thanks.

[BiZ]

As regards the PTG course, I always understood that the programme that brings them up to SAC PAV mandated standard (I think it was called the Advanced PAG Course) was only run twice a year and that only limited operators from each state attended. Thus you had some units with a fair number of non SASR CT standard operators on ops?

Spot on, but those lucky few operators (usually around 8 per State/Territory) pass on their knowledge when they return, as is the theory. The course is still practised with the same standards at the TOU's CIRTF (Their "killing house"), and other states at their versions tthere of.
Keep in mind the CT role of PTGs is very limited compared to their "brean and butter" work role, they do pick up some great skills and knowledge for general work roles though from it.

TOU are very pleased that 4RAR(Cdo) have their TAG-E facilities as they can drop in and use them for full live fire/EO exercises that they can't do at their other facilities at times. With the TAG role in the East this will no doubt increase CT training for QLD SERT, VicPol SOG and NSW Police SPG TOU operators. No doubt the PTG course will change again within the next year or so to better fit the new facilties and TAG unit.




Are the NSW TRGs being included in the PTG sched these days or is it still just TOU? Do the TRGs still even exist?

TRG's went out in 1991 when the SPG TOU was formed. Several years later Region based State Protection Support Units (SPSU) were formed to replace the Regional TRG teams. They are under Region and TOU control and number around 300 part time operators equiped with almost everything the TOU has, excpetion being primarily the MP5 family.

SPSU units are not CT trained or authorised, TOU is the CT designated Police unit. SPSU units may get a run or increased rol with the TAG facilities on the East coast now, but who knows....probably not. TOU are very defensive of being the CT unit, and are the only ones under SAC-PAV authorised to do so in NSW (Police wise anyway :D ).



VicPol SOG I know have always had a great relationship with the Regiment as have SERT out of my old stomping grounds, the Sunshine State :lol:
VicPol SOG also have a long history with 2 Commando Company in Victoria, with many advisors and officers being ex 2Cdo Cpy.


Wasnt there a book published by some academic on the whole SAC PAV development and it's implications for PTGs?

Don't know about that one, haven't heard of such but then that doesn't mean it doesn't exist obviously. :D




Some food for thought...

Certainly is. My knowledge on SO-19 is sadly limited to what I've read from a former operator in the unit, "Good guys wear Black" or something like that from memory.

I'm glad to see this thread didn't spiral down with tossers crapping on about CAG, Delta and SEALS kicking evryones "a@#" at CT/shooting etc etc.