European ministers are satisfied with Condoleezza Rice's

[ed316]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Rice allays CIA prison row fears
European ministers are satisfied with Condoleezza Rice's explanation on the issue of alleged secret CIA prisons overseas, Nato and EU officials say.
They met the US secretary of state ahead of a meeting of Nato foreign ministers in Brussels.
Ms Rice has stressed that US interrogators are banned from using torture both at home and abroad.
US Congress members who campaigned on the issue say it is a major concession. The White House denies a policy shift.
Meanwhile, a senior lawyer for the state department has said the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) does not have access to all detainees held by the US.
John Bellinger said the ICRC had access to "absolutely everybody" at the US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
When asked by journalists if the organisation had access to everybody held in similar circumstances elsewhere, he said "No".
'Very satisfactory'
Nato and EU foreign ministers said Ms Rice had assured them, at a closed-door meeting on Wednesday evening, that the US did not interpret international humanitarian law differently from its allies.
German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said the meeting was "very satisfactory for all of us".



Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot, one of those most concerned by the issue, also said he was "very satisfied".
After the meeting Ms Rice was repeatedly questioned by reporters about the secret US detention centre allegations.
She said again that the US did not condone torture and would live up to its obligations under US and international law.
Her tour of Europe, which has taken in Germany, Romania and Ukraine, has been dogged by reports that the US secretly transported and detained terror suspects using European locations.
On Wednesday, she sought to calm the row by stressing that all American interrogators were bound by the UN Convention on Torture, whether they worked in the US or abroad.
The Bush administration has previously said the convention, which bans cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment, does not apply to US personnel abroad.
Comments welcomed
Ms Rice's comments were welcomed by members of Congress who are currently pushing through legislation, proposed by Republican Senator John McCain - a former prisoner of war - that would tighten the rules on the treatment of foreign terrorism suspects.
"This is the heart of the debate over Senator McCain's amendment, and I am glad the administration finally realises that Senator McCain is right," Democratic Senator Carl Levin said.
The White House has resisted attempts for the CIA to be bound by any new legislation on interrogation practices.
But Ms Rice's new approach suggests these efforts might have been abandoned, says the BBC's Justin Webb in Washington.


On Wednesday, UN human rights commissioner Louise Arbour was rebuked by the Washington for criticising US anti-terror tactics.
She had said reports the US was using secret overseas sites to interrogate suspects harmed its moral authority, and she wanted to inspect any such centres.
The US ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, said Ms Rice had already addressed the issue.
It was, he said, "inappropriate and illegitimate for an international civil servant to second-guess the conduct that we're engaged in [in] the war on terror, with nothing more as evidence than what she reads in the newspapers".

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4509250.stm

Published: 2005/12/08 15:16:00 GMT

© BBC MMV

[caleb]

However, the citizens of Europe are everything else but "satisified" with Condoleezza Rice's "explanations". This **** is not over, yet.

[ed316]

Rice: No guarantees on abuse





BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) -- U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she can give no guarantee that terrorism detainees won't be abused again despite what she called the United States' clear rules against torture.
"Will there be abuses of policy? That's entirely possible," Rice said at a NATO news conference. "Just because you're a democracy it doesn't mean that you're perfect."
She offered assurances, however, that any abuses would be investigated and violators punished.
"That is the only promise we can make," Rice said. She spoke a day after trying to clarify to European foreign ministers the U.S. policy on secret prisons and treatment of terrorism suspects.
The foreign ministers appeared receptive. NATO Secretary General Jaap De Hoop Scheffer said Rice had "cleared the air."
Rice explained to the NATO and European Union foreign ministers over dinner Wednesday night that the United States does not violate the rights of terrorist suspects, De Hoop Scheffer said.
"You will not see this discussion continuing" at the NATO headquarters, he told a news conference Thursday.
His comments echoed those of several foreign ministers who sought to shift away from a confrontation with Washington over the issue.
Rice repeated on Thursday that no U.S. personnel are allowed to commit abuses, whether on U.S. soil or overseas.
"The United States doesn't engage in torture, doesn't condone it, doesn't expect its employees to engage in it," she said.
Rice did not mention U.S. employees in similar statements Wednesday and earlier. Including them now may be a reference to a loophole identified by human rights organizations that could allow the CIA to contract out mistreatment.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/08/rice.nato.ap/index.html

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I hope this is true, and that we and our allies see eye to eye on this. It has seemed to me that many people, especially the press, are all to eager to accept the word of very questionable ex-prisoners (who after all are told in training to always claim torture as a means to undermine our efforts) over that of our elected leaders. I realize that "USA tortures people" sells far more newspapers than "USA does not torture people" but we all know that a lie told often enough becomes the truth.

[ed316]

In the European media anything that is anti-America is good knews no matter if it has merit or not

[mi35d]

I find it comical that everyone has to point the finger at the US when it comes to just about any topic but to think that other countries in the world are better is a stretch.

I'm SURE France, Germany, GB, etc. treat any terrorists they apprehend with all the grace and dignity of a trusted family member. I'm sure they ask them very politely to help and give information for the good of humanity. I'm sure they're given nutritious meals and every creature comfort available. Prisoners would NEVER be abused ANYWHERE in the world - except when in US custody! What a bunch of bastards are we.

[Weasel]

I hope this is true, and that we and our allies see eye to eye on this. It has seemed to me that many people, especially the press, are all to eager to accept the word of very questionable ex-prisoners (who after all are told in training to always claim torture as a means to undermine our efforts) over that of our elected leaders. I realize that "USA tortures people" sells far more newspapers than "USA does not torture people" but we all know that a lie told often enough becomes the truth.

How naive are you? You still believe in credibility of elected leaders? rofl

[caleb]

In the European media anything that is anti-America is good knews no matter if it has merit or not

That was not always the case and the question is: How could it happen, that Anti-Americanism is so "fashionable" these days. Blaming everything on us "left-wing europeans" maybe simple, but isn't the correct anwer.

Many mistakes were and are still made by the current administration, fueling the anger many europeans feel today towards this administration.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

How naive are you? You still believe in credibility of elected leaders? rofl

I realize your'e having a bit of fun here...but we're talking in terms of comparative credibility. If I had to choose between who to believe - some guy picked up on the street with an RPG, a prayer book, and a 5th grade education vs. Ms. Rice, I'm gonna have to go with Rice.

Isn't it odd that



U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she can give no guarantee that terrorism detainees won't be abused again despite what she called the United States' clear rules against torture.


...is worthy of an AP news release? Anybody with connected ganglia knows that nobody anywhere can guarantee that rules won't be broken. Rice's statement is equally applicable to police/defense/intel forces of Germany or the UK or France as it is to the US - the implication being, of course, that we in the US are just so damn bloodthirsty and eager to torture, that we're way more likely to do it. Closer to reality is that the world is more likely to find out about it. Why isn't the media doing a full anal exam on the European intel agencies and their conduct - do they get a pass, so long as the US is brought in line? Methinks I smell an agenda...

[ed316]

That was not always the case and the question is: How could it happen, that Anti-Americanism is so "fashionable" these days. Blaming everything on us "left-wing europeans" maybe simple, but isn't the correct anwer.

Many mistakes were and are still made by the current administration, fueling the anger many europeans feel today towards this administration.


in Europe anti-Americanism is a sport. When a country act to protect it's own intrest it can careless if it is unilateralism. France, Germany, and Russia protest so much because it had intrest in Iraq (Volker report). The US acts with complicity from European governments in the war on terror. Eu would never do such a thing...is that what you are implying?

[Weasel]

in Europe anti-Americanism is a sport. When a country act to protect it's own intrest it can careless if it is unilateralism. France, Germany, and Russia protest so much because it had intrest in Iraq (Volker report).

And what´s with Spain, Italy, Australia? Just to name 3 other countries.

[ed316]

And what´s with Spain, Italy, Australia? Just to name 3 other countries.

Just naming out the most vocal ones when it comes to curtailing US power.

[Weasel]

I realize your'e having a bit of fun here...but we're talking in terms of comparative credibility. If I had to choose between who to believe - some guy picked up on the street with an RPG, a prayer book, and a 5th grade education vs. Ms. Rice, I'm gonna have to go with Rice.

I consider a lot of politicians as criminals. And I don´t expect US politicians to be different. The more power you have, the more corrupt you are.

A man with a RPG is more honest. He shows his real intentions and you can handle it. p-)

[Weasel]

Just naming out the most vocal ones when it comes to curtailing US power.

Don´t forget a few million muslims. :)

[ed316]

I consider a lot of politicians as criminals. And I don´t expect US politicians to be different. The more power you have, the more corrupt you are.

A man with a RPG is more honest. He shows his real intentions and you can handle it. p-)

but you must give him the same respect as a man without an RPG, right?

[Weasel]

but you must give him the same respect as a man without an RPG, right?
If you´ve captured and disarmed him? Yes.

Or better: You don´t have to respect him, just treat him like a human being.

[ed316]

Don´t forget a few million muslims. :)

Because the US decides to support the only true democracy in the middle east...Isreal

[ed316]

If you´ve captured and disarmed him? Yes.

Or better: You don´t have to respect him, just treat him like a human being.

Maybe in a world where everyone plays nicey nicey...Reality is not that world

[Weasel]

Maybe in a world where everyone plays nicey nicey...Reality is not that world

I know. But without aims you can´t find the right way.

[Weasel]

Because the US decides to support the only true democracy in the middle east...Isreal

And why the US do so? Because of benevolence and kindness?

[ed316]

I know. But without aims you can´t find the right way.

to treat a suspected terrorist who is train and taught how soft western governments are with "respect and dignity" is shooting yourself in the foot not to mention the lives that could be saved.

[Weasel]

to treat a suspected terrorist who is train and taught how soft western governments are with "respect and dignity" is shooting yourself in the foot not to mention the lives that could be saved.
I already said it in another thread: I don´t want to lower myself by giving up the values I am fighting for.

[ed316]

I already said it in another thread: I don´t want to lower myself by giving up the values I am fighting for.

then you and I can go on forever in a circle with I agree to disagree

[Weasel]

then you and I can go on forever in a circle with I agree to disagree
We don´t have to. You don´t want to protect western values, I want to. Very simple.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I consider a lot of politicians as criminals. And I don´t expect US politicians to be different. The more power you have, the more corrupt you are.

A man with a RPG is more honest. He shows his real intentions and you can handle it. p-)

Politics is the art of asking for more than you really want, in order to grudgingly bargain, appear to give something valuable up, and wind up with what you really wanted in the first place...so there is an element of, mmm shall we say - manipulation involved.

But I doubt very seriously that a man with an RPG can be said to be more "honest". His honesty and allegiance are to his cause - not to ultimate truth. He's just as likely to lie to gain an advantage (if I'm not mistaken ...and I don't want to start a flame war about the comparative worth of various religious texts) but the Quran explicitly details how infidels are unworthy, and should be lied to and deceived at every opportunity. So officially, we're not worth being told the truth. I mean, the "working class hero", "trust in the little guy" thing looks good on paper, but I'd expect that RPG up my backside as soon as I believed him when he said "it's OK sir, come on out, I'm only shooting at the bad people"

[Weasel]

Politics is the art of asking for more than you really want, in order to grudgingly bargain, appear to give something valuable up, and wind up with what you really wanted in the first place...so there is an element of, mmm shall we say - manipulation involved.

But I doubt very seriously that a man with an RPG can be said to be more "honest". His honesty and allegiance are to his cause - not to ultimate truth. He's just as likely to lie to gain an advantage (if I'm not mistaken ...and I don't want to start a flame war about the comparative worth of various religious texts) but the Quran explicitly details how infidels are unworthy, and should be lied to and deceived at every opportunity. So officially, we're not worth being told the truth. I mean, the "working class hero", "trust in the little guy" thing looks good on paper, but I'd expect that RPG up my backside as soon as I believed him when he said "it's OK sir, come on out, I'm only shooting at the bad people"
I can agree with this statement. I just like to say that the Quran is as often misinterpreted as the bible. I have never read the Quran but I doubt that a serious religion ****ounces death to infidels.

[ed316]

We don´t have to. You don´t want to protect western values, I want to. Very simple.

there is a difference in protecting western values and PROTECTING western values. If you are not willing to protect it at all cost then you are not fit to live in it.

[Weasel]

there is a difference in protecting western values and PROTECTING western values. If you are not willing to protect it at all cost then you are not fit to live in it.
At all costs? Hell, no. Never ever.

[WarriorMonk]

At all costs? Hell, no. Never ever.

why not?

hate to be blunt...but you'd half-ass SOME jobs for "image?" and "morality?"

[ed316]

At all costs? Hell, no. Never ever.

that there is the big difference between us......I'm willing to protect what I believe in (western society) at all cost. IMO

[Weasel]

that there is the big difference between us......I'm willing to protect what I believe in (western society) at all cost. IMO

At all cots means that you are blind and led by fury and rage. I don´t want that for me. I want to keep a clear mind.

[Weasel]

why not?

hate to be blunt...but you'd half-ass SOME jobs for "image?" and "morality?"

Adjust your tone and I will respond to you more seriously.

[ed316]

At all cots means that you are blind and led by fury and rage. I don´t want that for me. I want to keep a clear mind.

fury and rage is human....blind is closing your eye or ignoring the realities that is happening around you.

Have you ever been in a fight? Just curious

[WarriorMonk]

@ Weasel:

Okay, now this:

"a clear mind" in what sense?

how would all costs mean "blind fury and rage?"

would you think that the ends justifying the means in SOME cases is okay?

Do you believe in a fair fight?

[Weasel]

fury and rage is human....blind is closing your eye or ignoring the realities that is happening around you.

Have you ever been in a fight? Just curious
Fury and rage is human. But committing a crime while in fury and rage is no excuse in legal systems of modern societies. If you can´t control your emotion you are not the right person to protect your country.

What do you mean with "fight"? A firefight? No, never have, never will.

[Weasel]

@ Weasel:

Okay, now this:

"a clear mind" in what sense?

how would all costs mean "blind fury and rage?"

would you think that the ends justifying the means in SOME cases is okay?

Do you believe in a fair fight?
"A clear mind" in the sense of not being as barbaric as the enemy you fight against. No "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" kind of thinking.

Or in other words: You are fighting for freedom and democracy? Then behave like a person who lives in freedom and democracy.

No, I don´t think that the end justifies the means when we are talking about human beings!

I don´t believe in fair fights. But I believe in good versus evil. What you are talking about is evil against another evil.

[tribal]

I consider a lot of politicians as criminals. And I don´t expect US politicians to be different. The more power you have, the more corrupt you are.

A man with a RPG is more honest. He shows his real intentions and you can handle it. p-)


your 'honest men with RPGs' blew up 30 innocent Iraqis today travelling on a bus. Stupid euorpean double standards for clear and plain terrorism.

[caleb]

your 'honest men with RPGs' blew up 30 innocent Iraqis today travelling on a bus. Stupid euorpean double standards for clear and plain terrorism.

Read again what Weasel wrote because you totally didn't get it.

[Atlantic Friend]

I find it comical that everyone has to point the finger at the US when it comes to just about any topic but to think that other countries in the world are better is a stretch.

You'll have to admit that US officials have been sending mixed signals over the years about the use of torture and the outsourcing of it.


I'm SURE France, Germany, GB, etc. treat any terrorists they apprehend with all the grace and dignity of a trusted family member.

But we do ! Think about the alacrity of about family feuds, though. p-)


I'm sure they ask them very politely to help and give information for the good of humanity.

Exactly ! "Give us the information, please, because it might hurt one EXTREMELY particular part of humanity, if you catch my drift"


I'm sure they're given nutritious meals and every creature comfort available.

We prefer to talk about 'healthy meals'. You knoz how it is these days, so many things are unhelathy, but when it comes to health you can't beat stale unleavened bread and good tap water. Oh wait, the latest diet says they're out, too, sorry !

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I don´t believe in fair fights. But I believe in good versus evil. What you are talking about is evil against another evil.

This is a good point - and I agree. Nothing wrong with an unfair advantage, but a lot wrong with an immoral advantage.

Where I see the disconnect is here - it is a foregone conclusion now, especially in the European media, that it is US policy to torture. It is not, it never has been. They are trying to call things torture that are not torture. They are saying that only the US does this, when all of Europe does this. This is an effort to delegitimize the US for a political reason.

This is also happening in the US of course, courtesy of our extreme left, and leftist mass media. Even McCain, a centrist Republican, in an effort to build political capitol, has introduced a bill that doesn't ban what is already illegal. Yes, I wrote that correctly - his much vaunted "anti-torture" bill does nothing. It specifies that torture is illegal (it is already illegal) and states that methods outlined in classified Army field manuals may be used (they already are). Why bother with this, when it accomplishes nothing?

For effect only - to further build the illusion that somehow we've changed, that you-know-who is to blame, and that "if you'd only listen to me, pay attention to me, elect me" that everything will magically be back to normal. It's poo in Europe and it's poo here, IMHO.

[ed316]

@Weasel, so the western society you hold so dear is not worth fighting for..or not worth the effort. These terrorist doesn't only want us (western culture) out of he middle east, but to destroy what we hold dear to our hearts.

I meant "fight" as fisticuff.

[Weasel]

@Weasel, so the western society you hold so dear is not worth fighting for..or not worth the effort.
Maybe I understand you wrong. Or you understood me wrong. I meant that our society and its values ARE worth fighting for. But within our own values.


These terrorist doesn't only want us (western culture) out of he middle east, but to destroy what we hold dear to our hearts.
Terrorism and its roots are a very special thing and not explainable in 5 minutes.


I meant "fight" as fisticuff.
Believe me or not, I never had a fistfight. I had some serious tussels, maybe 5 to 10 in my whole life. But I never used my fist. :)

[ed316]

Maybe I understand you wrong. Or you understood me wrong. I meant that our society and its values ARE worth fighting for. But within our own values.


Terrorism and its roots are a very special thing and not explainable in 5 minutes.


Believe me or not, I never had a fistfight. I had some serious tussels, maybe 5 to 10 in my whole life. But I never used my fist. :)

we are two different animals in the same zoo:)

[Weasel]

This is a good point - and I agree. Nothing wrong with an unfair advantage, but a lot wrong with an immoral advantage.

Where I see the disconnect is here - it is a foregone conclusion now, especially in the European media, that it is US policy to torture. It is not, it never has been. They are trying to call things torture that are not torture. They are saying that only the US does this, when all of Europe does this. This is an effort to delegitimize the US for a political reason.

This is also happening in the US of course, courtesy of our extreme left, and leftist mass media. Even McCain, a centrist Republican, in an effort to build political capitol, has introduced a bill that doesn't ban what is already illegal. Yes, I wrote that correctly - his much vaunted "anti-torture" bill does nothing. It specifies that torture is illegal (it is already illegal) and states that methods outlined in classified Army field manuals may be used (they already are). Why bother with this, when it accomplishes nothing?

For effect only - to further build the illusion that somehow we've changed, that you-know-who is to blame, and that "if you'd only listen to me, pay attention to me, elect me" that everything will magically be back to normal. It's poo in Europe and it's poo here, IMHO.
Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, the kidnapping of a german citizen, hundreds or thousands of suspicious CIA flights, soldiers shooting at woonded enemies, chopper crews skeet shooting unemotionaly, soldiers cheering after killing enemies. All theses incidents don´t show the US in a very good light and you have to admit that distrust is appropriated. It´s a matter of fact that the USA (government, soldiers, not US citizens in general) have a bad reputation ("cowboys", shoot first, ask later). This all causes that nobody here has serious doubts about that the CIA uses torture methods to get information. (But let´s not discuss what torture is and what isn´t)

If you have read some of my other postings you will see that I not only criticise the USA. I also criticised my own government for looking away when these CIA flights happened. In my opinion some german politicians have to resign.

PS: It´s not only me, but far more intelligent people who are very worried about the course the USA are steering.

[Weasel]

we are two different animals in the same zoo:)
As long as there are iron bars between us - no problem. p-)

[Apathy]

I hope this is true, and that we and our allies see eye to eye on this. It has seemed to me that many people, especially the press, are all to eager to accept the word of very questionable ex-prisoners (who after all are told in training to always claim torture as a means to undermine our efforts) over that of our elected leaders. I realize that "USA tortures people" sells far more newspapers than "USA does not torture people" but we all know that a lie told often enough becomes the truth.

That and the fact that it is plausible. It doesn't really matter if it was true or false. What really matters to the public is if it is plausible. For example, if CNN said that Superman had orgies with the Iraqi prisoners, would anyone believe them? No. But what if they said that there American soldiers were torturing the prisoners. It doesn't matter if it was false. It is plausible and that's the only thing that matters to the ignorant public.