reinstating the iron cross

[towelie]

I guess this is mainly for the german members, but anyways do you all think that the iron cross should be reinstated in the bundeswehr? Im not sure what the highest medal is now, but I know for sure that it isnt the Iron Cross.

Personally I think it should be reinstated at a time of war; it has no nazi conotations since it was created way before the nazis came to power, and most vechiles have the iron cross painted on them.

just a thought.

[evanfitz]

Isn't the German military signature the Iron Cross?
Don't see anything wrong with the metal, but im sure its got reasons.

[JoaMei]

What medals are actually available now? Whats the highest?

[towelie]

http://www.treff.bundeswehr.de/C1256D97003668D2/vwContentByKey/N25THMFN378CKUADE

thats all the medals and awards that are available.

[Gordon]

I guess this is mainly for the german members, but anyways do you all think that the iron cross should be reinstated in the bundeswehr? Im not sure what the highest medal is now, but I know for sure that it isnt the Iron Cross.

Personally I think it should be reinstated at a time of war; it has no nazi conotations since it was created way before the nazis came to power, and most vechiles have the iron cross painted on them.

just a thought.

I didn't know it was ever the highest, i thought that was the Knights Cross (with all the other gold, diamond garbage they junked on it). Maybe i'm just being pinickety though, i'm not sure.

[towelie]

the knights cross was the highest medal during ww2. I think the highest was actually the pour le merite, but the Iron cross was the 2nd highest, something like that.

[Crassus]

Knight´s Cross with oakleves, swords and diamods. With the Golden oakleaves was given only to Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

all in all KC was given 7000 soldiers in the army of 13 million.

[Atlantic Friend]

Why on Earth shouldn't the Bundeswehr award his soldiers with the Iron Cross, if they satisfy to the old requirements ? It's a Malta Cross, not a Swastika, and it's the malta cross the Luftwaffe's symbol already.

Germany is an adult democratic nation, and has been for quite a long time. Her soldiers wearing Iron Crosses won't change that.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

My wife's great uncle was awarded the Knights Cross in WW2.

[kk111]

It's a Malta Cross, not a Swastika...


it´s a teutonic cross.

[Killtokk]

The iron cross was instaured like a good service medal by Napoleon,

and most of the Symbols used by Hitler, were symbols of other cultures before he was born,
like the Svastika, or the Runes,

don't forget that Hitler was very studied about Celtic and Viking Culture, and his symbols, like Runes (all Waffen divisions weared one of this Celtic symbol betwen others), Crosses, etc. Hitler was sure to his soldiers were to the Valhalla when died, preparing for his own Ragnarok, all of this from the viking culture.

Theese things are the reason why most people, without knowledge think all these symbols are from Nazis.

[California Joe]

The Blue Max is still the coolest.

[Esszett]

For the history of the Iron Cross look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

The Iron Cross is only awarded in wartime.
And the Bundeswehr has never been involved in a real war.
(I don't count the Kosovo- and Afghanistan wars in as they were more limited "military-operations" IMO)

But I think it is possible that the Iron Cross could be awarded again in wartime.

The Knight's Cross is a higher grade of the Iron Cross (it's called "Knights Cross of the Iron Cross" -> see link) and is a Nazi-only medal.

The highest medal on German side in WW I was the "Pour le Merite", nicknamed "Der Blaue Max". -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pour_le_M%C3%A9rite

If I ever had to go to war for my country it would be the highest honor for me to receive the Iron Cross since it has always been THE symbol of bravery, loyality and chivalry (the reason why it was chosen as the symbol of the Bundeswehr).

[Crassus]

If I ever had to go to war for my country it would be the highest honor for me to receive the Iron Cross since it has always been THE symbol of bravery, loyality and chivalry (the reason why it was chosen as the symbol of the Bundeswehr).

I´m not going try to start a flame war but during WWII many obscure persons got high awards while serving Wermacht. For example: Theodor Eicke (father of consentration camps) KC with oakleaves, Josef Mengele (we all know his record) EK I, Oskar Dirlewanger (interesting sociopath) KC.

What I am trying to say is, go ahead restore Iron Cross but do not get upset if people mention these kind of characters during discussions. These persons have nothing to do with Bundeswehr but there are sensitive groups that have lot of media power.

[Esszett]

I´m not going try to start a flame war but during WWII many obscure persons got high awards while serving Wermacht. For example: Theodor Eicke (father of consentration camps) KC with oakleaves, Josef Mengele (we all know his record) EK I, Oskar Dirlewanger (interesting sociopath) KC.

What I am trying to say is, go ahead restore Iron Cross but do not get upset if people mention these kind of characters during discussions. These persons have nothing to do with Bundeswehr but there are sensitive groups that have lot of media power.
You are right, many obscure persons got high awards while serving in the Wehrmacht. Noone doubts that. I wouldn't mind if people mentioned these kind of characters. This is part of my nation's history. Sad but true.

But that doesn't change the fact that the Iron Cross already existed long before WW II (see the links in my previous post) and many honorable men (even in WW II) have been awarded with the Iron Cross for bravery, loyality and chivalry.
Admitting that the Iron Cross also has been awarded to obscure persons under a criminal regime doesn't discredit the Iron Cross itself IMO.
And many Germans think like me. That is the reason why the Iron Cross has been chosen as the symbol of the Bundeswehr and many WW II-veterans who later served in the Bundeswehr wore their Iron Crosses with pride on their new uniforms.
I know this is highly argued here but I don't think that all German soldiers in WW II were criminals and that the majority of them just did their duty for their country.
This said I think there is no reason why the Iron Cross should not be awarded in possible future wars again.

[Count Lippe]

Is there someone still serving in the Bundeswehr who earned a EK, maybe a general? I really doubt it, but I'm not sure.

[Atlantic Friend]

it´s a teutonic cross.

I stand corrected !

[Count Lippe]

Both crosses have origins in the crussades, so you're both kind of right. ;)

[Esszett]

Is there someone still serving in the Bundeswehr who earned a EK, maybe a general? I really doubt it, but I'm not sure.
Don't know for sure either but I seriously doubt it.
If there was one he'd have to be at least about 80 years old.
This is a bit old, even for a General.
I think even Generals retire from service at the age of 65 or earlier.

[ElHombre]

the knights cross was the highest medal during ww2. I think the highest was actually the pour le merite, but the Iron cross was the 2nd highest, something like that.

i'm with cali joe. the blue max is the coolest. :lol:

towelie, i'd bet that you've already been told about the town of new braunsfels if you haven't been there already. head there if you ever get homesick. :D

sorry for off-topic reply.

[oregongrunt]

Why on Earth shouldn't the Bundeswehr award his soldiers with the Iron Cross, if they satisfy to the old requirements ? It's a Malta Cross, not a Swastika, and it's the malta cross the Luftwaffe's symbol already.

Germany is an adult democratic nation, and has been for quite a long time. Her soldiers wearing Iron Crosses won't change that.

Isn't it a wartime award? I don't think anyone could even earn one unless a soldier did something spectacular in Afghanistan and a general was in country, that way they'd both get it.

[oregongrunt]

http://www.replicaters.com/ww2%20German%20Luftwaffe%20uniforms/luftwed.jpg

Mr.Larry Mihlon, Director, Luftwaffe Aircrew Reenactors Association (http://www.luftwaffereenactors.org/) got married in June wearing our Luftwaffe Mess Jacket, vest and trousers. We are so honoured.
Thank you Mr.Mihlon for giving us the opportunity of being of service, for trusting us with an event which was so important, and for allowing us to use photographs of the event. We cannot thank you enough. Our best wishes and prayers for both your wife and you for a very prosperous and blissful future.

You are behind the times, it's been reinstated years ago.

[Atlantic Friend]

Isn't it a wartime award? I don't think anyone could even earn one unless a soldier did something spectacular in Afghanistan and a general was in country, that way they'd both get it.

It is a wartime award, but as Germany now sends the Bundeswehr in peacekeeping missions, and even to direct military operations in Afghanistan, there might be Iron Crosses for German soldiers in the future...

[Esszett]

http://www.replicaters.com/ww2%20German%20Luftwaffe%20uniforms/luftwed.jpg

Mr.Larry Mihlon, Director, Luftwaffe Aircrew Reenactors Association (http://www.luftwaffereenactors.org/) got married in June wearing our Luftwaffe Mess Jacket, vest and trousers. We are so honoured.
Thank you Mr.Mihlon for giving us the opportunity of being of service, for trusting us with an event which was so important, and for allowing us to use photographs of the event. We cannot thank you enough. Our best wishes and prayers for both your wife and you for a very prosperous and blissful future.


Now that's sick. Wearing an order without having earned it in real combat is just a disgrace IMO.
What a pathetic poser.
(But who cares, it's just a German symbol of Honor and anyone knows Germans are just those idiotic clowns portrayed in "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers".)

[Vandervahn]

Now that's sick. Wearing an order without having earned it in real combat is just a disgrace IMO.
What a pathetic poser.
(But who cares, it's just a German symbol of Honor and anyone knows Germans are just those idiotic clowns portrayed in "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers".)

The films you mention actually show a quite "positive" (in a moralic sense) of the german soldiers - for american productions. For really stereotypical "Fritzes" you have to watch the old John Wayne stuff p-)

[Macs.]

Oh, we had this topic before, with a czech wearing a Marine uniform at his marriage.

What kind of woman marries a man who wears a a fake uniform at marriage ? Thats just embrassing.

[California Joe]

Now that's sick. Wearing an order without having earned it in real combat is just a disgrace IMO.
What a pathetic poser.
(But who cares, it's just a German symbol of Honor and anyone knows Germans are just those idiotic clowns portrayed in "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers".)

Asshead, that retard in the picture was universally excoriated by members of every frigging country on this board the first time it was posted. You'll have to excuse the lack of sympathy for combat vets that were Nazis and trying to kill the rest of us. Most of us that have studied the history of WW II do not get our info from movies. We have a pretty good idea of the professionalism of the German Army. How do you walk with that HUGE chip on your shoulder.

[Macs.]

Don't wonder, Esszett is always negative like that.

Thats because he lives in East-Germany.

[towelie]

i'm with cali joe. the blue max is the coolest. :lol:

towelie, i'd bet that you've already been told about the town of new braunsfels if you haven't been there already. head there if you ever get homesick. :D

sorry for off-topic reply.

ive been there several times. I went there for wartsfest(sp?), and I got a chance to don some lederhosen. Nice town and nice people.

[towelie]

Don't wonder, Esszett is always negative like that.

Thats because he lives in East-Germany.

its dont worry you damn n00b

[Esszett]

Asshead, that retard in the picture was universally excoriated by members of every frigging country on this board the first time it was posted. You'll have to excuse the lack of sympathy for combat vets that were Nazis and trying to kill the rest of us. Most of us that have studied the history of WW II do not get our info from movies. We have a pretty good idea of the professionalism of the German Army. How do you walk with that HUGE chip on your shoulder.

I see. Did a search on it and found it.
Sorry, I have to admit I let myself carry away a bit. (Do you say that in English?)
I blame it on alcohol.p-)

And Macs: You might be right.:)

[kk111]

http://www.twschwarzer.de/ek1957.jpg
Iron Cross 1.Class "1957-Version"

http://www.mrauschert.de/Orden/Seite.jpg
Bundeswehr - Iron Cross

[Count Lippe]

Earned in WWII...
The Bundeswehr and NVA were established with the help of many Wehrmacht officers.

[Vandervahn]

Earned in WWII...
The Bundeswehr and NVA were established with the help of many Wehrmacht officers.

Well, the Bundeswehr wouldnt have been very professional if they had only accepted non-Wehrmacht people in the 50s, would it?
The theory of collective guilt made it possible for former 3rd Reich officials to come into steering position again, because if all are guilty, then you can as well choose people who already know their job p-)

[tsuri]

Iron Cross 1.Class "1957-Version"

But it is only the Exchange Version. The WW2 Swastika was exchanged for Eichenlaub. It was not given to Bundeswehr Soldiers for Bundeswehr achievements.

[kk111]

thats right.

[gadzook]

I'm as anti-Nazi as they come and I don't have a problem with the Iron Cross. Since it pre-dates Nazism and the Third Reich I do not have an issue with it.

[Freibier]

I'm all for reinstating the EK and our Tankers need their skull collartabs back

[Kekkonen]

Would be interesting to see the day when PC-levels have dropped so low that it can indeed be reinstated. Hopefully that will be soon.


http://www.replicaters.com/ww2%20German%20Luftwaffe%20uniforms/luftwed.jpg

Mr.Larry Mihlon, Director, Luftwaffe Aircrew Reenactors Association (http://www.luftwaffereenactors.org/) got married in June wearing our Luftwaffe Mess Jacket, vest and trousers. We are so honoured.
Thank you Mr.Mihlon for giving us the opportunity of being of service, for trusting us with an event which was so important, and for allowing us to use photographs of the event. We cannot thank you enough. Our best wishes and prayers for both your wife and you for a very prosperous and blissful future.

You are behind the times, it's been reinstated years ago.

Given that the guys in the association play with these kinds of toys I guess it's safe to say that he knows more about ww2 history than any of you calling/thinking of him as a "retard", and I am sure he cares just that much too.

http://www.luftwaffereenactors.org/109side.jpg

http://www.luftwaffereenactors.org/PicturesofmyStuka-1.jpg

http://www.luftwaffereenactors.org/ashbystorch.jpg

[towelie]

our Tankers need their skull collartabs back

all the liberals would wet their panties if that happened

[Zapp Brannigan]

For the history of the Iron Cross look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

The Iron Cross is only awarded in wartime.
And the Bundeswehr has never been involved in a real war.
(I don't count the Kosovo- and Afghanistan wars in as they were more limited "military-operations" IMO)

But I think it is possible that the Iron Cross could be awarded again in wartime.

The Knight's Cross is a higher grade of the Iron Cross (it's called "Knights Cross of the Iron Cross" -> see link) and is a Nazi-only medal.

The highest medal on German side in WW I was the "Pour le Merite", nicknamed "Der Blaue Max". -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pour_le_M%C3%A9rite

If I ever had to go to war for my country it would be the highest honor for me to receive the Iron Cross since it has always been THE symbol of bravery, loyality and chivalry (the reason why it was chosen as the symbol of the Bundeswehr).
That Wikipedia article is full of inaccuracies.

Regarding "The Iron Cross is only awarded in wartime," that is not completely true. The Iron Cross was not awarded during the two German/Danish Wars (1848-49 and 1864) nor during the Austro-Prussian War (1866). Prussian soldiers in those conflicts received the Militär-Ehrenzeichen 1st or 2nd Class, with a few receiving the highest enlisted award, the Military Merit Cross, the so-called "Pour le Mérite for NCOs and enlisted men" (Militär-Verdienstkreuz, sogenannter Orden Pour le Mérite für Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften). A few of these were awarded in the Franco-Prussian War and World War One, but in these wars the Iron Cross was the main award. For Prussian officers, the main decorations when the Iron Cross was not awarded were the Crown Order with Swords and the Order of the Red Eagle with Swords. A few received the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern with Swords, and even fewer received the Pour le Merite.

The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross is not "a Nazi-only medal." In English, your wording implies that the medal was a Nazi award, i.e. a political award. It was a Nazi-era medal, or a Third Reich-era medal, or a World War II-era medal.

As for "The highest medal on German side in WW I was the "Pour le Merite", the PLM was not a German order, but a Prussian one. Given Prussia's central role in Germany, many PLMs were awarded to non-Prussians, but the vast majority went to Prussian officers. Also keep in mind that the PLM was an order, so it could only be awarded to officers. The Iron Cross was awarded without regard to rank.

Other Imperial German states had their own highest military honors, again all restricted to officers. The most prestigious of these were:
Bavaria: Military Order of Max Joseph (Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden)
Saxony: Military Order of St. Henry (Militär St. Heinrich-Orden
Württemberg: Order of Military Merit (Militär-Verdienstorden)
Baden: Military Merit Order of Karl-Friedrich (Militärischer Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstorden)
Associated with each of these orders were medals which served as the highest honor for enlisted men and NCOs. Other German states had their own decorations, and several had Iron Cross-equivalents, military decorations awarded without regard to rank, often in two classes like the Iron Cross. Among these were the Grand Duchies of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Oldenburg, and the Duchy of Brunswick (although the 1st Class of Brunswick's War Merit Cross did not appear until 1918).

Because of politics and ignorance (all those people who associate the Iron Cross only with its 1939 version and the Nazi era), I doubt it would ever be reestablished as an award. A proper Military Merit Cross, though, should. A first step might be to authorize swords for the Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr, to distinguish combat awards from peacetime long service ones. This was routinely done during the Boxer Rebellion and Germany's colonial wars to distinguish peacetime Crown Orders and Red Eagles (in these cases, the orders were worn on the Iron Cross ribbon too).

The same could be done for the Bundesverdienstkreuz. It's not quite an Iron Cross or Pour le Merite, but a Bundesverdienstkreuz mit Schwertern, maybe am Bande des Eisernen Kreuzes, would be an improvement over the current system of nothing.

[Macs.]

all the liberals would wet their panties if that happened

:)

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/3281/11111115rt.png

[Zapp Brannigan]

:)
That Totenkopf is more like a Brunswick Hussar (Braunschweigisches Husaren-Regiment Nr.17) type than the Prussian Death's Head Hussar type adopted by Panzertruppen and in slightly modified form by the SS. No one should take offense at that :) .