Apache Downed by Hostile Fire: the threat of the Sa-7

[Skaman]

http://home.earthlink.net/~jenkinscomputerserv/images/ah64-1.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~jenkinscomputerserv/images/ah64-2.jpg

These are pictures of the latest Apache which was shot down over Iraq when it was hit by an Sa-7...it happened a few weeks ago. The Apache made it down to the ground and the crew survived, but the damage was extensive.

US seems to be having a SERIOUS problem with these Sa-7/14s...even their latest and best helicopters equipped with the latest counter-measures against IR guieded missiles are failing miserably. Before the war the US was claiming its latest IR countermeasures would prevent IR SAMs from hitting their birds..certainly the old Sa-7s would be useless. So far...they are suffering heavy losses to them.



As well, we have a damaged C-5

http://www.madoc.us/pictures/c5samstrike/c5%20repair.JPG

http://www.madoc.us/pictures/c5samstrike/c5-3.JPG

Pictures of the C-5 transport which was also hit by an Sa-7. The engine was completely destroyed...and has been removed from this pic. The holes in the plane were patched up...and it was able to take off again and out of Iraq on just 3 engines. They had to get it out of there as soon as possible becasue cargo planes don't like sitting in Baghad airport for too long...they become good mortar round targets. p-)

[Yard Ape]

As well, we have a damaged Herc. A Herc would be a C-130. As you identified, this is a C-5.

[RomanS]

There is no perfect technology.

The only perfect existing thing we know - is the nature.

Против лома, нет приема...
Если нет другого лома!

I use to hear this a lot when I was young.

Easy thing to explain and translate.
What ever Americans and Europeans come up with in the military technology, Russians will come out with the same or better **** that didn't cost them billions to make.

It might look different, and appear very cheaply made -but it works.

Itsa simple game called - Catch me if you can.
And we do, without actually fighting each other.

[Uninen]

Bad rep that SA-7 has got has been in ill trained troops, this basic and first Russian MANPAD can still be truly effective, if used properly.. i should know.. :) Not to mention better desings such as SA-14/16/18.. ;)

Actually, against SA-18 there only one cure: Fly out of its reach, just like with latest Stingers, and even more.. :)

These babys dont get fooled by decoys, as their seeker is dual band: IR/UV, it knows at what it was aimed at, and only goes for that target.. :)

[stuntman]

Is the SA-7 the missle launcher responsible for the attempted downing of a Isreali liner in kenya?
If so we need what ever there airliners use.

[Uninen]

Yes, in Kenya they USED SA-7s.. but they didnt fail because any countermeasures, they failed because the shooters didnt fully know how to used the god damn missiles.. which was at this occasion a good thing.. ;)

[Kingpin]

Lucky day for Apache pilots. As i see cockpit of this thing not armored. So good burst from MG is enough to make some casualties here. Those thing isn't for raids over enemy defences.

[The Punk]

There is no perfect technology.

The only perfect existing thing we know - is the nature.

Против лома, нет приема...
Если нет другого лома!

I use to hear this a lot when I was young.

Easy thing to explain and translate.
What ever Americans and Europeans come up with in the military technology, Russians will come out with the same or better **** that didn't cost them billions to make.

It might look different, and appear very cheaply made -but it works.

Itsa simple game called - Catch me if you can.
And we do, without actually fighting each other.

Haha you're right man. I read that in '50/'60's NASA spent lots of dollars financing the "Andersen Consulting" society in order to invent and produce a special pressurized pen that could write even in zero gravity in order to use it on space missions.
Russians used a pencil...
Hahahahahahhaahahahaha!!!

[marktigger]

ok guys can I issue a warning this is an open source so bebore we start discussing anti SAM tactics, Defensive aids capabilities etc there are peoples lives on the line. And the internet is available all over the world.
some stuff that should have stayed OPSEC has already appeared on this group.
But it came from open media sources so can the Americans please get their media people on message.

[marktigger]

ok guys can I issue a warning this is an open source so bebore we start discussing anti SAM tactics, Defensive aids capabilities etc there are peoples lives on the line. And the internet is available all over the world.
some stuff that should have stayed OPSEC has already appeared on this group.
But it came from open media sources so can the Americans please get their media people on message.

[kinghk]

Haha you're right man. I read that in '50/'60's NASA spent lots of dollars financing the "Andersen Consulting" society in order to invent and produce a special pressurized pen that could write even in zero gravity in order to use it on space missions.
Russians used a pencil...


And i have read that the earth is flat. Don't believe everyhing you read, your story is just an urban legend.

Use of a pencil in a spacecraft is not smart, because there will be small part of graphite everywhere. Besides it will be small parts of wood floating around each time it must be sharpened.

[Kingpin]

Haha you're right man. I read that in '50/'60's NASA spent lots of dollars financing the "Andersen Consulting" society in order to invent and produce a special pressurized pen that could write even in zero gravity in order to use it on space missions.
Russians used a pencil...


And i have read that the earth is flat. Don't believe everyhing you read, your story is just an urban legend.

Use of a pencil in a spacecraft is not smart, because there will be small part of graphite everywhere. Besides it will be small parts of wood floating around each time it must be sharpened.

:)
This is called - dust. Do you think that there is not any dust on spacestation? And who said that it was classic wooden pencil?

[kinghk]

Haha you're right man. I read that in '50/'60's NASA spent lots of dollars financing the "Andersen Consulting" society in order to invent and produce a special pressurized pen that could write even in zero gravity in order to use it on space missions.
Russians used a pencil...


And i have read that the earth is flat. Don't believe everyhing you read, your story is just an urban legend.

Use of a pencil in a spacecraft is not smart, because there will be small part of graphite everywhere. Besides it will be small parts of wood floating around each time it must be sharpened.

:)
This is called - dust. Do you think that there is not any dust on spacestation? And who said that it was classic wooden pencil?

"When the astronauts began to fly, like the Russians, they used pencils, but the leads sometimes broke and became a hazard by floating in the [capsule's] atmosphere where there was no gravity. They could float into an eye or nose or cause a short in an electrical device."

Urban legends reference pages:
http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

[Kingpin]

Once again i can ask - why you decided it was classical wooden graphite pencil?

To say true i don't know by myself :) :) :) but i will try to know out something from people i familiar with on Energia (Russian space crafts development facility)

[cold0]

I have just posted my opinions about the anti SAM tactics and helicopters EW in a old trend so I'm just curious to know why you are so sure that this AH-64 was hit by a SA-7.
It's more probable that the Iraqi have used a more advanced SA-14/16. Saddam have bought 5.000 MANPAD, expecially Gremlins and Gimlets and, even if the Iraqi have used hundreds of these missiles during the IPGW and IIPGW, no always with spectacular successes, an unknow number of thiese weapons is in the hands of iraqi "rebels" today.

[kinghk]

Once again i can ask - why you decided it was classical wooden graphite pencil?


I didn't say so. I just made it clear that NASA did not use millions of $ to develop a space pen, they bought it from Fisher for 2.95$ each.

[Early Chow Recruit]

I have to take the oposing view, these photos are proof that the design concept of survivability works. It is obvious from the photos that the AH-64 saved the crew, no one other than the ****ing media ever said the thing was untouchable. A similsr explosion on an MI-24(usualy 5 lbs of comp whatever wraped in a fragmenting jacket) would have caused a seperation of the cockpit/cabin from the airframe. This is due to the position of the engine exhaust and the design of the airframe. Notice as well there appears to have been no post impact fire, another reason to bow to the geeks in the engineering field. So before you dismiss the AH-64 as a piece of crap take an objective look.

[Kingpin]

I didn't say it is crap. Actually it showed great survivability. But i don't sure about Mi-24

[Kaos]

I have to take the oposing view, these photos are proof that the design concept of survivability works. It is obvious from the photos that the AH-64 saved the crew, no one other than the f*** media ever said the thing was untouchable. A similsr explosion on an MI-24(usualy 5 lbs of comp whatever wraped in a fragmenting jacket) would have caused a seperation of the cockpit/cabin from the airframe. This is due to the position of the engine exhaust and the design of the airframe. Notice as well there appears to have been no post impact fire, another reason to bow to the geeks in the engineering field. So before you dismiss the AH-64 as a piece of crap take an objective look.
Sure.
because your wiew about the Mi-24 is an objective one???
Did you ever fly one?
What are your sources?

[Marmot1]

I have to take the oposing view, these photos are proof that the design concept of survivability works. It is obvious from the photos that the AH-64 saved the crew, no one other than the f*** media ever said the thing was untouchable. A similsr explosion on an MI-24(usualy 5 lbs of comp whatever wraped in a fragmenting jacket) would have caused a seperation of the cockpit/cabin from the airframe. This is due to the position of the engine exhaust and the design of the airframe. Notice as well there appears to have been no post impact fire, another reason to bow to the geeks in the engineering field. So before you dismiss the AH-64 as a piece of crap take an objective look.
Sure.
because your wiew about the Mi-24 is an objective one???
Did you ever fly one?
What are your sources?
yeah wanted to ask same but you were fast... why everyone thin russian copters are crap... actualy russian airframes seams better in chopters maybe they look crapy but they save crew life due to belly construction...

[Early Chow Recruit]

Sure.
because your wiew about the Mi-24 is an objective one???
Did you ever fly one?
What are your sources?


You speak with the tone of someone under a nationalist spell, my objectivity is based on solid engineering and facts. These facts come from the Russia vs Afghanistan spat (MI-24 vs Stinger).

By the way I fly helicopters for a living and have done so for the last 13 years. I have an intimate understanding of aircraft engineering tempered by 6,000 flight hours throughout the western hemisphere.

As for flying one I had a chance to climb all over one in Louisiana and it was not very impresive. It's main structure is a series of beams running between the two engines that happen to be vunerable to damage in the exhaust area. This coupled with loads imposed on the airframe in flight lead to imediate catastrophic airframe failure, this can be considered a failure in the crew survivability design.

and by the way,
have a nice day :slap:

[bison]

Ziiing!!! :lol:
but does anyone actually have numerical test results on this matter? i don't think anything can be proved without them...

[Russian Texan]

Might lead or did lead?

Silly russians, they have been praising "krokodil" for its toughness and survivability ever since Afganistan but what do they know they only fly it in combat as oppose to someone who "climbed into it Louisiana"...

Structural engineering knowledge - good for you :)
But it will only become a viable argument once you can show us proof of a single "cockpit separation". Until then your structutal engineering knowledge statement is a myth that has been disproved by the 20 years of flying in combat all over the world.

Since you are so into technical details, would you mind posting armouring info for both "MI 24" and "AH 64" and while you are at it, please post number of MI 24 hours flown in Afganistan/lost to enemy fire (stingers specifically).
The thing is that recently I have read some materials that state: "Stinger effectiveness was eggagerated".

[16 OBr SpN]

Sure.
These facts come from the Russia vs Afghanistan spat (MI-24 vs Stinger).


What facts are you talking about?
Let me tell you one thing, when I was there, we were told by our heli crews that only 1 out of 32 choppers was shot down by Stingers. ;)

So what is my personal opinion on that?
Either mujahedin were too ****ing dumb, or "Stinger" was a piece of ****. I personally go with the first option. rofl

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[The Punk]

Ok i apologise i was only joking, i know it's an urban legend, it was only a funny example of the different approach to problems of "HiTech" occidental people vs. "LowCost" oriental one, but nothing really serious. ;)

[hank]

Atta boy, Early Chow Recruit. ;) Like your style.

hank

[Kaos]

By the way I fly helicopters for a living and have done so for the last 13 years. I have an intimate understanding of aircraft engineering tempered by 6,000 flight hours throughout the western hemisphere.

As for flying one I had a chance to climb all over one in Louisiana and it was not very impresive. It's main structure is a series of beams running between the two engines that happen to be vunerable to damage in the exhaust area. This coupled with loads imposed on the airframe in flight lead to imediate catastrophic airframe failure, this can be considered a failure in the crew survivability design.
You should have let us known that before in your first post, but anyway, I'm not really sure that it give you the right to say what you said. Because after all, it's only your own experience, and you're not a qualified test pilot, aren't you?
And by the way ( :roll: ):
I have the pretention to "have an intimate understanding of aircraft engineering" too, but sorry, my next flight is sheduled only for sunday morning.
And I forgot to talk about that, so check the post of Russian Texan, for I agree with him that the Mi-24 has nothing to prove.
One last thing: I don't have a bad opinion about the Apache, **** happen sometimes, as for every flying machine. The fact that it is an American helo doesn't make a difference.

[perdurabo]

i'm sad because Poland will upgrade only 16 Mi24W to Mi24PL/PL-CSAR standard :( our Mi24D are now too old for upgrade, and even this W will be much smaller upgrade only ataka ATGMs and few systems that will allow them to flight in NATO missions day and night :( i would love to see more Mi24 and Mi8/14/7 in our service and in better standard (like european avionics, israeli Spike ATGMs, new russian eingine etc...)

[Uninen]

A similsr explosion on an MI-24(usualy 5 lbs of comp whatever wraped in a fragmenting jacket) would have caused a seperation of the cockpit/cabin from the airframe.

rofl Talk more BS kid, you have no clue about WTF are you talking about.. :backhand: :cantbeli:

[Falco]

A similsr explosion on an MI-24(usualy 5 lbs of comp whatever wraped in a fragmenting jacket) would have caused a seperation of the cockpit/cabin from the airframe.

rofl Talk more BS kid, you have no clue about WTF are you talking about.. :backhand: :cantbeli:


Are you a chopper pilot?

[Uninen]

Nope, IM THE ONE THAT SHOOTS THEM DOWN.. ;) I should know.. and i know the weapons in gueston, i know how to operate them.. among other things.. Well SA-7 and SA-18.. :)

[Falco]

Nope, IM THE ONE THAT SHOOTS THEM DOWN.. ;) I should know.. and i know the weapons in gueston, i know how to operate them.. among other things.. Well SA-7 and SA-18.. :)

werent we talking about a Mi-24 ?

[Uninen]

No we werent.. we were talking about what happens to it if its hit..

And no MANPAD can tear it into pieces.. like this on buffoon claimed.. rofl

To put it simply: Hind is most heavily armored Helicopter around, and can take much damage, much more than AH-64..

[TALOS]

No we werent.. we were talking about what happens to it if its hit..

And no MANPAD can tear it into pieces.. like this on buffoon claimed.. rofl

To put it simply: Hind is most heavily armored Helicopter around, and can take much damage, much more than AH-64..
I personally have a news documentary video of Afghan mujahadeen shooting down Russion hinds and the hinds exhaust is right at the weakest part of the hind... when hit the hind buckled in two and fell straight down.
This isnt meant to say that its not a tough helo, it resists up to .50 cal mg rounds but it does have that one weakness according to this video.

[Uninen]

TALOS,

I know.. was just trying to point out that it isnt a piece of **** like this one fella over there trys to make us belive.. basicly anything will come down if hit by MANPAD.. after all they are "hittle" missiles.. (or was it Hittile?) :)

[GazB]

Lucky day for Apache pilots. As i see cockpit of this thing not armored. So good burst from MG is enough to make some casualties here. Those thing isn't for raids over enemy defences.

It is supposed to be able to withstand 50 cal against the windows... but experience has shown that some rounds will still penetrate. The curved transparancies of the Hind are not bullet proof at all, though the front windscreens resist 23mm cal HE rounds.


And i have read that the earth is flat. Don't believe everyhing you read, your story is just an urban legend.

Use of a pencil in a spacecraft is not smart, because there will be small part of graphite everywhere. Besides it will be small parts of wood floating around each time it must be sharpened.


Umm, rubbish. All computer systems in space stations are sealed and waterproof. In a zero g environment anything will float and any liquids or spray from even a sneaze would damage a computer that wasn't sealed. The use of a pencil is fine in a spacecraft... until the Americans spent 12 billion there was no alternative. There are plenty of bits of all sorts of stuff floating around in a spacecraft... till they hit the aircleaners. Inside a spacecraft the air does not move naturally, so without fans you would suffocate if you stayed in one place. Fans are used to circulate the air around and two things they also do is remove foreign particles and remove carbon dioxide and add oxygen. Without removing carbon dioxide the crew would be poisoned whether there was enough oxygen or not. Equally without filtering the air the dust would become overwhelming from shed skin or hair folicles.



A similsr explosion on an MI-24(usualy 5 lbs of comp whatever wraped in a fragmenting jacket) would have caused a seperation of the cockpit/cabin from the airframe.

That is amazing. Of all the images of the Hind shot down... even completely burnt out wrecks I have never seen the cockpit become seperated from the hull. Do you have photos of this?


By the way I fly helicopters for a living and have done so for the last 13 years. I have an intimate understanding of aircraft engineering tempered by 6,000 flight hours throughout the western hemisphere.

So you'd know the armoured titanium shell that protects the crew and engines on the Hind is rarely destroyed even when hit by rather more substantial weapons than stinger. In fact it is the best way to identify the Hind from a Hip when viewing wreckage... the hind usually largely still intact.


Ok i apologise i was only joking, i know it's an urban legend, it was only a funny example of the different approach to problems of "HiTech" occidental people vs. "LowCost" oriental one, but nothing really serious.

I am sure those guys at NASA would like the world to think it was an urban myth... but tell me who do you think has a reputation for wasting money?


I didn't say so. I just made it clear that NASA did not use millions of $ to develop a space pen, they bought it from Fisher for 2.95$ each.


And why do you think Fisher spent billions developing a pen for a few hundred astronauts to use? ...and even if they did would it cost NASA $2.95 each? Everyone screws the governement agencies... $10,000 for a toilet seat for the navy? $5,000 for a bolt with the exact same specs and materials as a $2.50 bolt from Taiwan. Incompetance has a name and it is government accountancy.

[Early Chow Recruit]

Good morning gentlemen,
I'm glad to see some of the the responses, as I feared some of you digressed into the "brand X is the best because I'm from the same chunk of dirt where it was made" argument. This is a discussion about the design philosiphy of military hardware, throughout history assumptions have been made by engineers which have proven deadly when exposed to combat. The sandbox argument about having to be a test pilot to evaluate an aircraft is also bunk. I do not have to be a test driver to make a decision about wich car I choose to purchase.

The vast majority of people equate total armor protection with survivability, this is also a media/rumor supported myth wich has lead previous supporters of the M-1 tank to label it a piece of **** after seeing several disabled in combat by what is in their opinion a "lowly" RPG. They completely miss the point that actual crew casualties have been insanely low and that shape charge warheads are powerful beyond CNN comprehension.

Before posting further diatribes about helicopters with scary names and mythical powers think a little further and remember the definition of stupid is making the same mistakes and expecting different results.

As for my commrad the Russian Texan "nice flag". I always enjoy seeing some one stubborn enough to hang on to failed ideologies while living in the bastion of capitalism .

:hug:
Time to go flying
Have an after school special day

[Kingpin]

No we werent.. we were talking about what happens to it if its hit..

And no MANPAD can tear it into pieces.. like this on buffoon claimed.. rofl

To put it simply: Hind is most heavily armored Helicopter around, and can take much damage, much more than AH-64..
I personally have a news documentary video of Afghan mujahadeen shooting down Russion hinds and the hinds exhaust is right at the weakest part of the hind... when hit the hind buckled in two and fell straight down.
This isnt meant to say that its not a tough helo, it resists up to .50 cal mg rounds but it does have that one weakness according to this video.

Take VirtualDub and share this part here.

[Uninen]

The vast majority of people equate total armor protection with survivability, this is also a media/rumor supported myth wich has lead previous supporters of the M-1 tank to label it a piece of **** after seeing several disabled in combat by what is in their opinion a "lowly" RPG. They completely miss the point that actual crew casualties have been insanely low and that shape charge warheads are powerful beyond CNN comprehension.

:roll: Just that every body knows.. RPG-7 isnt piece of you know what.. and even with Faust 60 or 100 you can still (if they were functional..) knock out or at least damage most of modern day armored vehicles.. ;)

[Early Chow Recruit]

Just that every body knows.. RPG-7 isnt piece of you know what.. and even with Faust 60 or 100 you can still (if they were functional..) knock out or at least damage most of modern day armored vehicles..


Exactly ! but wars are supported by the funds and the votes of an uninformed public with a sound bite attention span. They would be the first cry foul when their vaunted super machine was felled by a low tech boulder.

[Uninen]

Yeah.. Media, and public.. it always knows trouble for military.. :| As they dont know / understand nothing.. :|

[Uninen]

Oh yeah.. after RPG-7s had proved in battle that they still are effective.. i saw loads of these US articles / posts: "Why dont we have / do we have RPG:s".. :) They have SMAW for what in earth would they need RPG:s? For nothing! Just Media and Public being silly.. :|

[Russian Texan]

As for my commrad the Russian Texan "nice flag". I always enjoy seeing some one stubborn enough to hang on to failed ideologies while living in the bastion of capitalism .



Have you ever seen a car sticker that says: "I am driving this way to piss you off"

Try clicking on it and see what happens :)

[Uninen]

:roll: :lol: ;)

[TALOS]

Take VirtualDub and share this part here.

??You lost me...
I assume you mean post the vid. It is vhs and is from a documentary on hinds in afghanistan and a hind that is used in louisiana for trainin air defense units.
I dont have the gear to convert to mpeg and post it but I will see about getting the name of the documentary so you can rent it or get ot from some where.

[Kingpin]

Take VirtualDub and share this part here.

??You lost me...
I assume you mean post the vid. It is vhs and is from a documentary on hinds in afghanistan and a hind that is used in louisiana for trainin air defense units.
I dont have the gear to convert to mpeg and post it but I will see about getting the name of the documentary so you can rent it or get ot from some where.

Rent?Here? rofl rofl rofl
I suppose that even on p2p i couldn't find it.

[Merik]

US seems to be having a SERIOUS problem with these Sa-7/14s...even their latest and best helicopters equipped with the latest counter-measures against IR guieded missiles are failing miserably. Before the war the US was claiming its latest IR countermeasures would prevent IR SAMs from hitting their birds..certainly the old Sa-7s would be useless. So far...they are suffering heavy losses to them.


That is technically not true at all. The reason why we are having problems with the Sa-7s and -14s is because the helicopters and thier crews are flying at such a low altitude that they dont have the time nor the speed to avoid the incoming missiles. Counter-measures such as the "Disco-ball" and other ECM's are designed to be effective at higher altitudes, since the pilot would then have heigth and time to avoid them. So, no we are not having a problem with the missiles, we are having problems with our tactics.

[sergey31]

A similsr explosion on an MI-24(usualy 5 lbs of comp whatever wraped in a fragmenting jacket) would have caused a seperation of the cockpit/cabin from the airframe

This is the biggest BS nonsence I ever read. Show us some pictures of these facts (and I saw quite few) The centre body to cocpits of the Hind is the strongest then any other helicopter in ever cunstructed (KA 50 does not count).... Tatanium+ Steel+ Ceramic.
What does this has to do with you bragging about flying some 30 or $40.000 dollar plastic/fiberglass choppers (if even)???????

Why don't you research this matter properly before posting. FACTS only, no BS opinion ether yours or someone else's.

I can write a book as well, full of BS and people who are in the interest will take it and spread it around.

[Sayeret]

US seems to be having a SERIOUS problem with these Sa-7/14s...even their latest and best helicopters equipped with the latest counter-measures against IR guieded missiles are failing miserably. Before the war the US was claiming its latest IR countermeasures would prevent IR SAMs from hitting their birds..certainly the old Sa-7s would be useless. So far...they are suffering heavy losses to them.

I'm not sure what serious problem your talking about. I'm pretty sure around four AH-64 Apaches have been shot down and a lot RPGs, which isn't really too good, but thats just because the tactics being used by these helos. For example no Israeli AH-64s have been shot down by Palestinians even though they have RPG-7s because of the tactics used. Even though four or five AH-64s were shot down that really isn't that many. Probably dozens of Sa-7s have been fired at American AH-64s and have missed. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that this one incident listed wasn't the only time an Iraqi or Iraqis fired MANPADs at an AH-64 in Iraq.

Also I doubt the Mi24 would split in half if it was hit by a SA-7 but I don't think it is any stronger than the AH-64. It may be a little stronger but I think if the US was using them in Iraq instead of Iraq we would lose more helicopters and their missions wouldn't be as effective. Theres a few reasons for this though. First the Mi24 was made in 1969 compared to the AH-64 which was made originally in 1982. The AH-1 Cobra is much more like the Mi24 than the Apache is. So the Apaches going to be more advanced than the Hind is because it is a lot newer weapon. Also American weapons from the Cold War tended to be more advanced than soviet ones but as a result the Soviets would make a lot more weapons to face American weapons. I can't remember the exact numbers but the Soviets wanted to have like three or four tanks for every American tank. I'm not saying the Soviet weapons were crap but they tended to be less advanced than American ones.

The biggest problem with the AH-64 or atleast was during Gulf War 1 was it had a lot of mechanical problems. The US army might of fixed the helicopter but I'm not sure.

[sergey31]

You are far from the truth......
First, Mi 24 is a copletely diferent attack helo then appache, it's purpose is to support advancing infantry with high speed passes and strafings, simmilar to WW2 attack planes and VERY effective (close support). Mi 24's have VERY good communication's with guys on the ground (mainly bmp's and btr's and tanks). The Mi 24's job is to get VERY close and Dirty.

Apache on the other hand is 90% night time chopper. It's good for night operations against far away target. Pop up and shoot tactics.
Unlike Hind, Apache does not have full frontal and belly protection from ground fire, usually smalls arms fire.... If you can hit it you can shoot it down with 7.62 fire and EVEN easier with 12.7mm (.50). It's mainly due to it's fiber glass and coposite material skin. Only pilot and a gunner are protected by tatanium tub and engines have protective covers, and rotor is protected to some degree.
Hind has FAR more armour protection then any Apache model.
Apaches are horrible machines when it comes to close support duties and that is why you would not see them on those missions, mainly Super Cobras are the ones that they use.
Secons, For every 1 hour flight, Apaches require 7 hour maintanace. Extreamly high maintanance machines.
Hinds, Hocums and Hovocs are all desighn to operate for several weeks away from base over the battle fields with a machanic crew on board and resuply and refuel on the field...... So far, there is no equal to this durability anywhere in the West.

Hinds.... Mujahadeens nightmare, hear distinctive incoming sound= hide in a cave.... By the way stingers in Afganistan were overrated, usualy helicopter pilot knows when it's being targeted and if he continues to pop flares he can out wait the guy with a stinger who at the time had only 30 seconds to fire or trow it away because the battery would be depleated thus making weapons worthless.

[sergey31]

These Apache's were actually shot down by small arms fire.

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff45/show_image.jpg

[Damian]

How do you know that?

[Marmot1]

How do you know that?

He had a VISION :lol:

[sergey31]

The photo?
Report from U.S Army.

[iflu]

if u fly too low...i dont think u would escape

[sergey31]

If you are in a AH 64 then you might be right..... One of the first Apaches that was forced down in the second Iraq war was by WW2 bolt action rifle (Turkish Mauser, 8mm). One hit in the computer control box was good enough to take it out of action.
No, in a Mi 24's though...... I've read and also saw an interview with a Afgan Mujahadeen that was fighting Soviets in the 80's. He stated that sometimes they would open fire at close ranges and the bullets would bonce off. They learned this quickly, and would avoid shooting with AK's and even quad 12.7mm AAA systems, so not to give away position.
Mi 24's did fly ither VERY low or VERY high to counter stingers, which to the pilots was actually more psychiological then real threat problem.

[Midav]

You are speaking of the Apache that was downed by which what the Iraqi's claim was a farmer with a WWII era rifle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2969471.stm

Here's the story.

[Kingpin]

If you are in a AH 64 then you might be right..... One of the first Apaches that was forced down in the second Iraq war was by WW2 bolt action rifle (Turkish Mauser, 8mm). One hit in the computer control box was good enough to take it out of action.
No, in a Mi 24's though...... I've read and also saw an interview with a Afgan Mujahadeen that was fighting Soviets in the 80's. He stated that sometimes they would open fire at close ranges and the bullets would bonce off. They learned this quickly, and would avoid shooting with AK's and even quad 12.7mm AAA systems, so not to give away position.
Mi 24's did fly ither VERY low or VERY high to counter stingers, which to the pilots was actually more psychiological then real threat problem.

Your sources if any?

[sergey31]

Yep.... What else would he say now?
He's afraid that Americans will punish him for this and he is trying to denny everything...... I've read several diferent versions as well, none of them is the same.


P.S. BBC is full of BS.
Full of propoganda and nonsense, I remember how they were covering Russian-Chechen war. They are bunch of liberals full of BS, that is it.[/u]

[sergey31]

Many many years of interest and research, I am and artist and I also research all of my stuff that I draw/paint from real life......
There is plenty information availble everywhere you just have to be interested in it.
World Air Power Volume 37, summer 1999
Mi-24 Hind, in action Squadron/Signal publications
1996 or 97 Discovery Channel program. Wings of ?
Janes World Aircraft. 1996 trough 1999...
Combat Aircarft magazine did qite a few on this.
Hundreds of WWW sites, both bias and against.
Visitig several airshow, pictures etc.
Anyway I can go on for longer..........But, don't take my word for holly truth but do your own research if you want to find out and this interests you.

[Kingpin]

Many many years of interest and research, I am and artist and I also research all of my stuff that I draw/paint from real life......
There is plenty information availble everywhere you just have to be interested in it.
World Air Power Volume 37, summer 1999
Mi-24 Hind, in action Squadron/Signal publications
1996 or 97 Discovery Channel program. Wings of ?
Janes World Aircraft. 1996 trough 1999...
Combat Aircarft magazine did qite a few on this.
Hundreds of WWW sites, both bias and against.
Visitig several airshow, pictures etc.
Anyway I can go on for longer..........But, don't take my word for holly truth but do your own research if you want to find out and this interests you.

Верю, верю :)

[sergey31]

Some small photos of Russians helicopter operating away from base,
Apache helos always have to return for maintanace tune up and clean up otherwise they'll bocome non-airworthy very fast.

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff45/mi241.jpg

[sergey31]

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff45/mi243.jpg[/list]

[sergey31]

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff45/mi242.jpg