South African National Defence Force

[sa_bushwar]

SA Bushwar webpage: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar

[ghostrider]

the pic is of a captain in the cape town highlanders based at the castle in cape town, the photo's below that was taken at the SA Army School of Battle in the northen cape.

[ghostrider]

nice pic's of the rooikat

[sa_bushwar]

View the SA Bushwar webpage at: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar

[ghostrider]

it the rooikat, but with a 20mm gun on it, looks like either AAA or anti tabk, not sure but i have a buddie at 2 Special Service Battalion, they work with rooikatte, so ill phone him and find out

[wilhelm]

Thanks Ghostrider and SA_Bushwar. Fantastic pics. SA_Bush, those last photo's seem to have the Denel 35mm Emak turret. Wonder what the chassis is? This thread is absolutely incredible...a real repository of info that might otherwise be lost or forgotten. Thanks to all who have posted pics and brought them out into the light of day where they belong.

[Dark Avenger]

I think it is the LIW LCT-35 turret.

[Rooibaard]

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/playtym/SADF/MilitaryMuseumJhb-02.jpg




Who's KLR is that?

[playtym]

Who's KLR is that?

No idea - that picture was taken during one of the SAAACA shows at the war museum - it could have belonged to any one of the hundreds of people that were there.

[Leopaard]

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4613458123548375760&hl=nl

[sp2c]

shoulder patch worn by Dutch South African volunteers with the 1st motorized rifle brigade "Prinses Irene" during ww2

[Ironsight06]

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4613458123548375760&hl=nl
Awesome :)

[Leopaard]

shoulder patch worn by Dutch South African volunteers with the 1st motorized rifle brigade "Prinses Irene" during ww2

Do you have more information about that Dutch-South African brigade sp2c ?

[Ironsight06]

Another one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/YZVyt0IYKQE

Some of the footage is also featured in the previous vid.

[sp2c]

Do you have more information about that Dutch-South African brigade sp2c ?

after the Germans invaded the Netherlands, the royal family and the politicians fled to England and initiated a military draft for Dutchmen living overseas in other countries.
These were then recruited in the the Dutch Legion.
From there they went to different units (Dutch RAF squadrons, Dutch troop interallied commando, Dutch intelligence etc.) and what was left over (and fit for combat) was formed into the motorized rifle brigade "Princess Irene"
most came from the Netherlands (Lion patch), Canada (Maple leaf) and South Africa (Springbok).
I think they landed at Normandy at D-day+11 and fought from there on all the way to the Netherlands.

Rumour has it that the Dutchmen in South Africa barely responded to the draft order so they were send an invitation to a free party for which they all prompty showed up and suitable candidates were then given the honour to join up ;)
but again, that's a rumour though

[wilhelm]

Not sure if this has been posted before. I think I got this from the IPMSSA and Victor logistics and also SA-bushwar had a couple of nice ones if I remember correctly. This is the Tank Technology Demonstrator or TTD that was to follow on from the Olifant. A lot of the technology from this has gone into the Olifant 2.

[wilhelm]

not sure where I got these from....please let me know if they are yours..

Interesting tank. Would have been nice to see 200 put into service.

[wilhelm]

The photographer calls them the Olifant. I know it as the TTD. Was it originally going to be called the Olifant 2? I have some specs at home that I will dig out.

[Bokwa]

This is a bit off-topic, but the guys on this tread should be able to help. I'm looking for pics of the old SA Homeland soldiers. Especially if they are wearing camo. I'm busy with research on SA & SA Homeland Combat clothing.

Appreciate any help.

[playtym]

This is a bit off-topic, but the guys on this tread should be able to help. I'm looking for pics of the old SA Homeland soldiers. Especially if they are wearing camo. I'm busy with research on SA & SA Homeland Combat clothing.

Appreciate any help.

Check out these guys - they sell militaria, but they have pics of most of the Homeland State camo uniforms.

http://www.worldcamo.com/main.htm

[Bokwa]

Thanks Playtym
I know about them. I would like to confirm the uniforms being worn. So I'm searching for picture of the soldier actually wearing them. Thanks anyway for the help.

[John Lynch]

Olifant Mk 1A
Olifant Mk1B
Eland 60 (AML-60)
Eland 90 Mk 7 (AML-90)
Ferret
Swerwer
Ribbok
Rooikat
Ratel 90
Ratel 60
Ratel 20
Buffel
Bulldog
Casspir
Wolf 4 x 4
Ingwe 4 x 4
RG-12
RG-31 4 x 4
RG-32 4 x 4
Mamba Mk II
Hippo
Rhino
RCV
Ratel 81 mm mortar
Rooikat

Ratel Swift ZT-3
Valkiri 22 127 mm
Valkiri 5 127 mm
Bataleur 6 x 6 127 mm

G6 Rhino 155 mm
G5 howitzer 155 mm
G4 howitzer 155 mm
G2 140 mm gun towed

AB-206A


M40 recoilless rifle 106 mm
M67 recoilless rifle 90 mm
G1 anti-tank gun 88 mm
76 mm 17 pounder anti-tank
57 mm 6 pounder anti-tank
L/60 40 mm
GDF-002 35 mm twi towed
Zumlac 23 mm
ZU-23-2
GAI-BO1 20 mm
GAI-CO1 20 mm
GAI-C04 20 mm
Ystervak 20 mm GAI-C01
ZPU-2 14,5 mm
120 mm mortar Brandt
M3 81 mm mortar
M1 60 mm mortar
Sa-7 Grail missile
SA-14 Gremlin
Green Archer Radar
Cymberline radar
LPD-20 Fire control
AS-2000 artillery target

[Hellfish]

Look through the thread - you'll find most of them already posted in here.

[exT70]

Patria/Hoefyster.
Couple of pics I posted elsewhere as well of the inside and more detail of what may become SANDF's new ICF. Some day. Maybe.
Also have pics of the various local protoypes built and designed under the Hoefyster project. Will have to find them somewhere.

Patria
Driver and Section Ldr possys (inclu Sec Ldr Hatch)
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5291.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5291.jpg)

Inside turret
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5285.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5285.jpg)

Dismounts’ bay
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5300.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5300.jpg)

Monitor for outside camera
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5297.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5297.jpg)

Camera Outside
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5320.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5320.jpg)

Back door
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5303.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5303.jpg)

Front of Patria/Hoefyster
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5308.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5308.jpg)

Front of Patria/Hoefyster
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5307.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5307.jpg)

[exT70]

Seeing as I'm on a roll. The Olifant Mk2.

More from the recent AAD Show in Cape Town. And purely for the sentimental at heart, the Centurion is alive and still being upgraded, Mk’ed, extended, weighted down, stuck-on and used. This is the vehicle that will apparently be known as the the Olifant Mk2 upgrade, which includes:
- more protection (turret all-round, glacis) (naturally not listed, only specified as composite)
- suspension
- engine (775kW)
- gearbox
- FCS (thermals, hunter/killer etc)

Now weights in at 60t (for clarity sake = 60,000kg)
Road speed 65km/h
Cross Country speed 45km/h

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5134.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5134.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5135.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5135.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5136.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5136.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5141-1.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5141-1.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5143.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5143.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5146.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5146.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5147.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5147.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5150.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5150.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5165.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5165.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5169.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5169.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5172.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5172.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5174.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5174.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5180.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5180.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5184.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5184.jpg)

[wilhelm]

Ext70..if you have the local prototypes for the new ICV please post them. I would be most interested. Is the Rooikat ICV amonst them?

[exT70]

Ext70..if you have the local prototypes for the new ICV please post them. I would be most interested. Is the Rooikat ICV amonst them?

I have 5 .pdf files of ordinary pics (not take by me) that I scanned in. They are all of the Hoefyster project. Concept setups and layouts. Hull and both the 30 and 35mm turrets. Have no idea how to post it here as I'm rather new to the "posting" business. I rather lurk.

And it is not of the ellusive Rooikat ICV. Have to date only seen 2 or three different pics of the supposed Rooikat ICV, and never seen a passenger compartment of ramp or door on it, so it might only be a Rooikat with 20Turret on it. I however think that the Rooikat chassis with front engine can in almost its standard current form will be an ideal ICV. Communality of parts etc. But don't get me started on this one.

[wilhelm]

ExT70, the one picture I have seen of the Rooikat ICV parked next to a regular Rooikat shows that the ICV version is considerably larger than the 'vanilla' version...

[exT70]

ExT70, the one picture I have seen of the Rooikat ICV parked next to a regular Rooikat shows that the ICV version is considerably larger than the 'vanilla' version...

Then I have n’t seen that specific picture. Do you have it available?

And it really does not need to be that much bigger. Ramp at the back, debussing section close to the back. What takes up space is the need to turn or manoeuvre inside the veh to get out. Set-up of Patria in back is already too big. Too large a silhouette. That is despite an “informed” member of the industry at AAD commenting that Patria is too small inside. Our troops these day are quite a lot smaller than they used to be. Which is one of the problems I have with veh developments/design. Get people who actually use them day to day (and not 20 years ago) to help. Not only evaluate at the end, when you’ll say anything to get a “good toy”, instead of the “best” (it can be within constraints). And I can keep going for hours…

[wilhelm]

In post 739, the bottom picture has been cropped and originally has a Rooikat 76 parked next to it. There is a big difference in size. I have that pic somewhere, but I am at work now. If you look at the pic below, you will see that there is also a Rooikat 76mm behind the Rooikat ICV. Note that the ICV hull roof has been raised, the vehicle is longer, and not shown is the ICV is wider.

[exT70]

In post 739, the bottom picture has been cropped and originally has a Rooikat 76 parked next to it. There is a big difference in size. I have that pic somewhere, but I am at work now. If you look at the pic below, you will see that there is also a Rooikat 76mm behind the Rooikat ICV. Note that the ICV hull roof has been raised, the vehicle is longer, and not shown is the ICV is wider.

I've got this pic already. Did however not look at it too closely in the past and did not even notice the height difference. There however does not seem to be too much detail on this veh other that this low res pic.

[wilhelm]

So, does anyone have any info or specifications on that very large wheeled 'tank"? That's the one with the very wide tyres and what looks like an Olifant turret (not sure-too heavy?) was this photo taken at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein? If so, surely they would have info on it?

[ElHombre]

Will wonders never cease? This story takes a moment to tell, so bear with me. A couple of weekends ago, I was at the annual local fair. I'm strolling through the booths and I come across one, sponsored by the city, that had a little game. Spin a wheel with various city officials, name the one that comes up, and get a prize. Of the 20 or so pictures, I know about three. My first try is invalidated when the Mayor comes up and I ask him who am I looking at (I now know four city officials). My second spin brings up my City Councilman and I get a gift certificate to the local Half Price Books (I have instructed LaSenora to bury me next to one of these stores. I then had to tell her to wait until I'm dead. Then I had to remind her that my death should be of natural causes). I went in this week and what do I find?

A twenty year-old copy of South African War Machine (http://www.amazon.com/South-African-Machine-Helmoed-Roemer-Heitman/dp/0861242025/sr=1-1/qid=1161916913/ref=sr_1_1/002-5399469-0477628?ie=UTF8&s=books). A book recomended by one of the good folks on this thread.

[wilhelm]

It's not a coincidence. They don't exist!:cantbeli:

[safpiper1]

Hi

Browsed in upon the very beginning of this thread were there was some speculation about South African kilted regiments (Scottish) and also about the existance of the SA Irish Regiment.

We exist:)!

Im a piper in the SA irish Pipes and Drums and last year we took part in the Edinburgh Tattoo. Im the corporal.

Im attaching some pics. Our website is www.sairish.co.za (http://www.sairish.co.za)

Rgs

Simon

[safpiper1]

more pics from the Edinburgh Tattoo 2005

[wilhelm]

Wow, nice pics safpiper. So was it cold wearing those kilts in Scotland?

[safpiper1]

Hi

Kilts are very misunderstood garments......no matter where you are they are HOT.

It was also Scottish summer and quite warm.

Rgs

Simon

[exT70]

Hi

Kilts are very misunderstood garments......no matter where you are they are HOT.




Now that is an understatement if I ever heard one!!!!

Where you are makes quite a bit of a difference when is comes to wearing a kilt. Kilts were not made for African conditions and are one of the most uncomfortably hot pieces of clothing I have ever worn. Those traditionalists who comment on the "correctness" of light-weight kilts need some February parade time in Africa (or anywhere else that is hot enough for that matter).

Will try to post some pics of this years tattoo tomorrow. The Cape Town Highlanders' Drums and Pipes and a dance troupe represented South Africa this year.

[wilhelm]

Reutech Mobile Radar System

[calimero2]

Reutech Mobile Radar System

Is that the ESR-220 Kameelperd?

[baboon6]

Now that is an understatement if I ever heard one!!!!

Where you are makes quite a bit of a difference when is comes to wearing a kilt. Kilts were not made for African conditions and are one of the most uncomfortably hot pieces of clothing I have ever worn. Those traditionalists who comment on the "correctness" of light-weight kilts need some February parade time in Africa (or anywhere else that is hot enough for that matter).

Will try to post some pics of this years tattoo tomorrow. The Cape Town Highlanders' Drums and Pipes and a dance troupe represented South Africa this year.

Are you a current or former CTH? My dad was in the Pretoria Highlanders (after national service in 1SSB in the mid-1960s), still has his Tam O'shanter somewhere, don't know where the kilt went though.

[Ironsight06]

Is that the ESR-220 Kameelperd?
Kameelperd it is. Not sure about the code though.

[exT70]

Are you a current or former CTH? My dad was in the Pretoria Highlanders (after national service in 1SSB in the mid-1960s), still has his Tam O'shanter somewhere, don't know where the kilt went though.

Current.
We're still around and still reletively healthy in comparison with the reserve force in general. We wear Balmorals (08:00 to 18:00) and Glen Gary's 18:00 to 08:00) instead of the Tam O'Shanter ("a rose by any other name"). I trust your Dad handed his kilt back to the QM stores on leaving/retiring. Getting quite expensive and difficult to maintain a "kilted regiment" in africa. SANDF no longer funding most Regimental kit.

[larryzou]

thanks man

[Deftoner]

I wouldn't mess with any Ratel ;)

Any info on that mount? It looks automated.

[Dark Avenger]

Is it based on the Command verion of the Ratel?

[Deftoner]

ah thanks. See below:

Rogue (Remotely Operated Gun Platform)
The Rogue concept is a force multiplier for future MBT's, AFV as well as naval vessels in the sense that it provides the platform on which it is mounted with an effective secondary weapon system that can be controlled from inside the vehicle without exposing the operator, thereby improving crew protection. Firepower is also dramatically enhanced due to the pointing accuracy and weapon stabilization.
It can operate independently of the turret motion or the turret of the main weapon.
http://www.rdl.co.za/assets/editor/rogue_1.gif
The Rogue allows the weapon to be slaved to the commander's primary sight (CPS) line of sight (LOS), or used as a stand-alone system and controlled from under armour by an operator using a hand controller with a video display. As a back-up mode in the event of, for instance, a power failure the weapon can also be operated manually from outside the turret if so required. The system can also be used as the primary weapon for an APC or a soft skinned vehicle.
http://www.rdl.co.za/assets/editor/rogue_2.gif
The Rogue is equally suitable for application on naval vessels where it can be roof, wing or bow mounted and controlled from inside the bridge using the remote controller and video display as a sighting system. In this application the weapon stabilisation compensates for the wave motion. On larger vessels the Rogue may also be slaved to an existing Fire Directing System (FDS).
http://www.rdl.co.za/assets/editor/rogue_3.gif

link (http://www.rdl.co.za/shared/default_content.asp?strPageName=weapons_main)

[oldone]

Are you a current or former CTH? My dad was in the Pretoria Highlanders (after national service in 1SSB in the mid-1960s), still has his Tam O'shanter somewhere, don't know where the kilt went though.
A dear friend of my Hein Kruger was the acting O.C of the Highlanders Reserve some years ago..........maybe your dad knew him ?

[baboon6]

A dear friend of my Hein Kruger was the acting O.C of the Highlanders Reserve some years ago..........maybe your dad knew him ?

My dad didn't do any camps after the mid-1970s, when he was paper-transferred to Rustenburg Commando. I'll ask though.

[Bokwa]

A dear friend of my Hein Kruger was the acting O.C of the Highlanders Reserve some years ago..........maybe your dad knew him ?

Se groete vir Hein. Ons het saam geskiet by Marksman.

[wilhelm]

Found this Ratel pic on internet. Never seen this before. It appears to have twin 14,5mm or 23mm cannon, with a machine gun mounted lower down.

[Dark Avenger]

It is the Jordanian version with the Ukrainian KMDB BAU-23x2 turret. For more info on the turret see www.morozov.com.ua (http://www.morozov.com.ua)

[siberian tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmApIMukbpU

[Hellfish]

Really good footage. Thanks!

[Ironsight06]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmApIMukbpU
Wow nice. Footage from the bushwar is hard to come by. Looks like something from operation moduler/hooper/packer.

[Clint_Durban]

Anyone looking for the movie 'The stick'?

Found this on EBay!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/THE-STICK-1987-Supernatural-war-action-RARE-JPN-VHS_W0QQitemZ120051329807QQihZ002QQcategoryZ309QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem

[sierratango]

I guess this is long overdue and in the sprit of sharing here are a few photos that I took during the recent 4Art Open Day in Potchefstroom. For me the real scary bit was that it had been over 20 years since I passed through the gates on my way to the border.

The images of the MRLS and 120mm may be a bit fuzzy...

[sierratango]

Outside the 4Art gate with my son...he wasn't too keen on all the loud noise.

[soutikghosh]

those were nice pics sierratango.
could you please post some high res pics of those artilleries especially the G-5s

[wilhelm]

Nice pics sierratango...thanks for posting.

[Hellfish]

Thanks for the pics. What is that dagger badge you use for your avatar? I've seen similar badges on uniforms, but was never able to find their meaning. I imagine it's a combat award or something like the US combat infantryman's badge? A skill badge?

[weecosse]

EvanL, the Balmoral? If you mean the hat, it is Tam O' Shanter (T.O.S.). The Balmoral has flat sides and two tails.

[sierratango]

It's the 61 Mech Bn Gp ops balkie (badge) the award is given for 56 continuous days or longer on operations, so given my limited knowledge I guess that it could be seen as our version of the CIB.

[Hellfish]

It's the 61 Mech Bn Gp ops balkie (badge) the award is given for 56 continuous days or longer on operations, so given my limited knowledge I guess that it could be seen as our version of the CIB.

Aha... thanks for the info. So no other units besides 61 Mech would have it?

[exT70]

Aha... thanks for the info. So no other units besides 61 Mech would have it?

Limited to 61 Mech, though the original idea was for a "Spes" Mech Inf badge. As 61 Mech has been practically closed down/are in the final "paper" days of closing down, the badge has now become defunct. It was however still awarded to members subsequent to the days of the "Operational Area"/Border, so members that served in the 90's and later were still awarded it. There are however large numbers of people who wear it who were/are not entitled to it. Traditionally it was awarded on parade, where the CO would "attach" it to the recipient without the "skilpadjies" (retaining backstops for the pins), effectively physically bloodily pinning it to the wearers chest.

[sierratango]

exT70 explains it far better than I would have been able to. Also the one in my avatar is the nutria the balkie itself looks like this:

[wilhelm]

Does anyone have any pictures of the Plofadder? This was a rocket deployed explosive filled hose that was used to clear a lane through minefields. It worked on the same concept as the British Giant Viper. Also there was apparentely a project called Cheetah that was part of the programme that eventually led to Rooikat. nIt was very advanced but too expensive apparentely. Any one have any info? Below is a link with some interesting discussions. Check the indigenous projects in the army section, and the CAVA in the airforce forum.

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum

[exT70]

Does anyone have any pictures of the Plofadder? This was a rocket deployed explosive filled hose that was used to clear a lane through minefields. It worked on the same concept as the British Giant Viper. Also there was apparentely a project called Cheetah that was part of the programme that eventually led to Rooikat. nIt was very advanced but too expensive apparentely. Any one have any info? Below is a link with some interesting discussions. Check the indigenous projects in the army section, and the CAVA in the airforce forum.

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum

Do n't have a digital pic of the "Plofadder". Looks almost exactly the same as the bog-standard Caspir. One or two nice pics of Plofadder being fired on the web (which goes missing as soon as I try finding it again).
I do however have pics of the manpad version. The inner workings are the same. Big loadbox is placed in the back of the Caspir and deploys by rocket motor from the open topped area you also find in the standard Caspir.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5325.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5325.jpg)
mobile plofadder insert (smaller than Caspir version)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5328.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5328.jpg)
Plofadder manpad backpack

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5327.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5327.jpg)
Backpack

[exT70]

[quote=wilhelm;2097963]Also there was apparentely a project called Cheetah that was part of the programme that eventually led to Rooikat. nIt was very advanced but too expensive apparentely. Any one have any info? Below is a link with some interesting discussions. Check the indigenous projects in the army section, and the CAVA in the airforce forum.


There has been rumours and conjecture in this regard for some while. See also the comment re: the Krokodil earlier in this forum, as well as the Gator, AC100, AC200, MBD Mantis and so on. The story/ies seems remarkedly similar and I wonder if the distinction between the projects have not become lost over the years. German assistance, cost, better than was eventually buildt...etc. Seems a bit of a odd coinsidence.

SA did however indeed receive lots of help from quite a number of countries during the arms embargo years. Germany was but one. Mobile bridges were a direct import (or then first one at least), the TTD designers/developers (hull specially) spent more time in Gemany than SA. SA also had very very close ties with Israel (which used US tech and equipment extensively - wonder where the Continental AVDS 1790 engines, MSZ sight, APFSDS [Mk1 & 2], nightvision etc. in the Olifant came from)(rumour has it that after first proto-type Cheetah fell, the accident investigation found that part of the maintenance manual were never translated from the original Hebrew version), extensively shared info and gen with US and Brittain, continued to fly Mirage, Allo and Puma long into the embargo, our AAD troops were well trained as Stinger teams, Milan missles etc etc.

[wilhelm]

Thanks exT70.

In the Saaf forums in the link posted above, there is some info on a book apparentely about to be published regarding all the top-end projects in the late 80's and early 90's. This should be very interesting and I for one will purchase a copy if I can.

Thanks for the pics on the plofadder-lite.

[sa_bushwar]

(See my website about the South-African Bushwar for more related material: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar)

[sa_bushwar]

(See my website about the South-African Bushwar for more related material: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar)

[Nordwind]

Anybody have any pictures of the recent Exercise Seboka? I heard they let the media go out in the field with the troops and was wondering if anybody has any pictures or videos?

[wilhelm]

Was it an army exercise or combined ops?

[jmiori]

I am looking for more information and pics of the Southafrican Soldier Modernization Program, specially about, opticals, weapons and webbing.

Thanks in advance

[Nordwind]

Was it an army exercise or combined ops?
The majority of the people present were army but there were some from the other branches as well, here are the numbers.

· South African Army : 4 165

· South African Air Force : 47

· South African Navy : 4

· South African Medical Health Service: 186

· Command Management Information: 185

· Military Police : 53

[Ghelp]

Any more photos on South African heavy artillery?
Good thread.

[exT70]

Was it an army exercise or combined ops?

Exercise similar to what was known some years ago as Sweepslag, Thunderchariot (Hungerchariot), Icebear etc. Seboka has been running for some years, but this year was the first time in a while that it had a healthy dose of "conventional forces". Also good to see the SANDF putting on a a sixeable exercise. Many of the previous years would/could for instance be described as an MOT exercise only. This year had 1Tk Reg, 1SSB, Art etc taking part. First time in years that I know of that full ripples of MRL were fired and that the big "G's" played a proper part (now I just wonder if there is any ammo left in the strategic reserve - been living off that for years now - large parts of the mortar stocks already gone).

Whether anything in the SANDF could be described as a combined ops is another question. More a case of Army supported by elements of. Very small numbers from the other arms of service usually involved. Might however change when (and if) the air assualt and new seaborne unit/s are fully up and running.

[exT70]

(See my website about the South-African Bushwar for more related material: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar) (http://www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar))

More pics of the iKlwa here (more details under this same forum http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92573&page=4:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5383.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5383.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5382.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5382.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5385.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5385.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5386.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5386.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5387.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5387.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5391.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5391.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5399.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5399.jpg)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/report.php?p=1990234)

[baboon6]

What is this seaborne unit? A new version of the Marines?

[pabloding179]

cool pics!

[Clint_Durban]

Have a look at these new additions to the SADF and SA Police videos on UTube!

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=fishclint

and at

http://www.youtube.com/my_favorites

[exT70]

What is this seaborne unit? A new version of the Marines?

Just an idea being branded around and part to the so called 2020 vision (now 2015 or 2010 or whatever, depends on the wind direction). Navy is already trying to re-surrect a limited marine type capability. What I've seen/heard of the Navy attempt was terrible, to say the least. Army due to start with their version/planning etc. next year somewhere. Will however not be "Marines" as such, but early days yet. Parliament will have to OK purchasing new kit, Army/Navy bunfight will have to be solved, lots of stuff still to happen. Possibility of SANDF asking for more money to purchase MRV's (multi-role vessels) was banded about in the media some months ago. All of the above has been mentioned in the media. I unfortunately can't say more than that. Am looking forward to it though.

[Clint_Durban]

Short video clip made from SADF (South African defence Force) photos as a tribute to all the men and women who served during the SA border war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk5o5NM6YVs

[playtym]

Short video clip made from SADF (South African defence Force) photos as a tribute to all the men and women who served during the SA border war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk5o5NM6YVs

Pretty impressive boet - well done!!

I'm especially proud to see some of my photos included there.

[Clint_Durban]

Pretty impressive boet - well done!!

I'm especially proud to see some of my photos included there.

Hope you don't mind! I would like to do some more of these!

I have come to realise that SADF photos and videos are far and few between on the internet!

[playtym]

Hope you don't mind! I would like to do some more of these!

I have come to realise that SADF photos and videos are far and few between on the internet!

You're quite right about the lack of SADF photos, videos etc, so I don't mind folk using my stuff, especially not when it's for something as cool as your video!!

[Clint_Durban]

You're quite right about the lack of SADF photos, videos etc, so I don't mind folk using my stuff, especially not when it's for something as cool as your video!!

Thanks! :)

[sp2c]

when I squint my eyes real bad I can allmost understand the song :D

I'll try again tomorrow when I've sobered up ;)

[Clint_Durban]

when I squint my eyes real bad I can allmost understand the song :D

I'll try again tomorrow when I've sobered up ;)

Ha Ha :)

let us know how it goes! :)

[sp2c]

haha if you knew me you wouldn't ask that question ... I don't miss any opportunity to talk about nothing, guess that makes me Dutch :D

also I inherited a number of items from the Boer Wars from my uncle (grandfathers father, don't know the actual term in english but I called him uncle Tom (I know the jokes, his name was actually Tom and he was a nice guy!) who recently passed away, apperantly his father or his father's father fought in the Boer wars! he left a diary, some Kruger Rands (coins?), a huge Paul Kruger portrait and apperantly two actual photos from the Boer side of things!! That and some items from his time in the Netherlands Indies (now Indonesia, he (my uncle) was in Xbrigade afaik) I'd better not share on the internet ;)
If anyone's interested I'll try to scan the stuff when I get it, I haven't seen it yet

It's a military family btw, if some Dutch speaking country went to war in the past 400 years chaces are I have a relative fighting in the ranks and dying of old age, I figure I'm genetically invincible so I joined up too, that's why I got to have the stuff, everybody else got cold hard cash but I think I have the better part of the deal :)

[wilhelm]

sp2c..would be great if you scanned in those 2 photo's..

[Masai]

Playtym, just dont let John Smith see your avatar, otherwise he'll be very "unhappy" :)

[Deftoner]

Really nice vids clint. Thanks!

I'll see if I can find some of my dads pics from the war (no promises though, I have no idea where they are anymore....).

[Wamba]

Playtym, just dont let John Smith see your avatar, otherwise he'll be very "unhappy" :)

Is there any law in SA forbidding the use of the old flag? Just wondering. (I have nothing against either flag)

BTW very nice vid Clint. Thanks for sharing!

[Deftoner]

Is there any law in SA forbidding the use of the old flag? Just wondering. (I have nothing against either flag)

Yes, sort of ;)

Some people associate it with apartheid. I still think it is nicer than the current one....

[Wamba]

What's the meaning of the colours of the new flag? I not talking about the "electric fence" one...

[Deftoner]

What's the meaning of the colours of the new flag? I not talking about the "electric fence" one...

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Africa)

Saves me some typing.... p-)

[Wamba]

Thanks for the link mate.

[Clint_Durban]

When you do a Google search for SADF photographs, this website comes up with most of the photos (nearly all the photos)......and on this thread!

Keep up the great work guys! :)

I will add a few photos of my own to keep things going!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyGaurdDuty4.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyGaurdDuty3.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyTruck1.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyParentsDay5.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

Here are the SADF company badges!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/c3be_1_b.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

SADF chest webbing!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/DSC00196.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

SADF helmet

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/SADFhelmet1.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

We were shown this photo at 8 SAI and told to present our kit exactly like this! The cente stripes on the blanket had to be combed! The corners of the blanket were ironed and we used shaving cream to make them stay square!

Everything had to be square!


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/inspection20bed1.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

An 8 SAI photo of an inspection standard cupboard (for those that were lucky enough to actualy have cupboards)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/inspection20cupboard1.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

Photo of an R4 rifle with a 50 round magazine on it!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/R42.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

8 SAI badges

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/8SAI_metal_flash1.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/DSC00198-1.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/untitled.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

SADF flag

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/za5Earm73.gif

[Clint_Durban]

SADF R1 rifle (7.62mm) with folding butt

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/R1rifle.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

Parade at 8 SAI, Upington, on main parade ground

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyUpingtonParade1.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

Ratel and other SADF equipment.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyVehicles1.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

8 SAI (Upington) aerial view

8 SA Mechanised Infantry Training Battalion (1988)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyUpington1.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/2ArmyUpington3.jpg

[exT70]

[quote=Clint_Durban;2156928]Here are the SADF company badges!


Clint
Thanks for the pics. My "kas" and everything "square" of days gone by just became a vivid memory again.
Still have hundreds of older pics lying around as well.

Question from a digi-idiot. How do you digitise the old "film" pics with any modum of quality.

Comment from a nit-picker: with the company badges you are missing the upright square (with the square split into two rectangles) and at least one more, which I just can't think of right now. Also that "Lohatla" pic does n't look like Lohatla in the background.

[Forrester]

Baaie mooi man
(have an aunt in South Afrika, not spoken to her very long, so my South African is bad I know..... love that language):)

[playtym]

[quote=Clint_Durban;2156928]Here are the SADF company badges!


Comment from a nit-picker: with the company badges you are missing the upright square (with the square split into two rectangles) and at least one more, which I just can't think of right now.

The square patch you refer to is that of Bravo company - if memory serves me correctly the pic shows Alpha, Charlie, Delta and Echo company patches.

[playtym]

Baaie mooi man
(have an aunt in South Afrika, not spoken to her very long, so my South African is bad I know..... love that language):)

LOL! You can speak "South African"? :)

You must mean Akrikaans - we've actually got eleven offical languages here - some most people wouldn't have even heard of.

[Deftoner]

LOL! You can speak "South African"? :)

You must mean Akrikaans - we've actually got eleven offical languages here - some most people wouldn't have veen heard of.

...some we haven't even heard of either ;)

[Forrester]

...some we haven't even heard of either ;)
It was always good fun when auntie arrived, first three hours she would talk you the ears off your head without me understanding the slightest bit, but when I got the hang of it I would understand most..... Too bad 'we hardly ever see eachother. If I ever turn out a rich man I certainly will visit South Africa (if it get's a bit safer too maybe....)

[Deftoner]

It was always good fun when auntie arrived, first three hours she would talk you the ears off your head without me understanding the slightest bit, but when I got the hang of it I would understand most..... Too bad 'we hardly ever see eachother. If I ever turn out a rich man I certainly will visit South Africa (if it get's a bit safer too maybe....)

...it shouldn't be that hard. Dutch and Afrikaans are very similar. Maybe the ****unciation is where you get lost?

[Forrester]

...it shouldn't be that hard. Dutch and Afrikaans are very similar. Maybe the ****unciation is where you get lost?
Yep, and the odd words like niksniebangnie for moedig and such.....
In fact Afrikaans is closer to teh original Dutch language than the Dutch we speak today.

[Clint_Durban]

[quote=Clint_Durban;2156928]Here are the SADF company badges!


Clint
Thanks for the pics. My "kas" and everything "square" of days gone by just became a vivid memory again.
Still have hundreds of older pics lying around as well.

No problem!

If you have any old SADF photos lying around, then get scanning......now!

Question from a digi-idiot. How do you digitise the old "film" pics with any modum of quality.

I used XP Windows Movie Maker to do those videos and it seems to improve the quality of smaller/older photos without any prompting!

Comment from a nit-picker: with the company badges you are missing the upright square (with the square split into two rectangles) and at least one more, which I just can't think of right now. Also that "Lohatla" pic does n't look like Lohatla in the background.

You are probably right there! I was told that the photo was taken at Lohatla, but am probably wrong there! I will remove the comment stating that it was taken at Lohatla.

If you can get hold of the missing company badges, then please add them to the thread!

[wilhelm]

Gee... those pics of 8SAI in Upington brought goosebumps back to me...

[Clint_Durban]

SADF group photo of vehicles

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/SADF_groupvehicles2.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

Gee... those pics of 8SAI in Upington brought goosebumps back to me...

I have an 8 SAI website at

http://groups.msn.com/8SAInfantryUnit/_whatsnew.msnw

Check it out! :)

[Clint_Durban]

Here is a new photo video on UTube. The photos are all from the sa_bushwar website! Check it out! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j5h1zFcu0M

[BeetleCrusher]

There is no law forbidding the old flag but most organisations have clauses that state that the displaying of the old flag at events will get you chucked out. Motorsport SA being one of them.

[quote=Wamba;2155784]Is there any law in SA forbidding the use of the old flag? Just wondering. (I have nothing against either flag)

[Bokwa]

Here's what these guys think of our troops who died in the Bush war!!

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=365480

Mongane Wally Serote, CEO of the Freedom Park Foundation, says they don't deserve it because they didn't die for freedom and human dignity.

[playtym]

Here's what these guys think of our troops who died in the Bush war!!

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=365480

Mongane Wally Serote, CEO of the Freedom Park Foundation, says they don't deserve it because they didn't die for freedom and human dignity.

Check out the thread I've got going over here

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=100228

[R/cst]

Mongane Wally Serote
Boo hiss
:bash:

[R/cst]

Here is a parabat site I found

http://www.airbornesoldier.com/

to the home of the South African Parabat. This site was created to establish an archive and a home for members of this unit. This is a non-profit site, hosted and maintained by volunteers who are proud of their heritage, their wings and proud to be associated with the South African Parabats.

[Wamba]

I don't know if they been posted before, but they are new to me.

Recces in Liberia in 2003:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/pedroesper/sadf_special_forces_liberia_2003_4.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/pedroesper/sadf_special_forces_liberia_2003_3.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/pedroesper/sadf_special_forces_liberia_2003_2.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/pedroesper/sadf_special_forces_liberia_2003_1.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

Anyone seen or played this SADF Bushwar game? p-)

http://battlefieldsingleplayer.planetbattlefield.gamespy.com/index.php?pg=mods&md=75

Cubans vs SADF rofl

Looks like fun!

[Ironsight06]

Anyone seen or played this SADF Bushwar game? p-)

http://battlefieldsingleplayer.planetbattlefield.gamespy.com/index.php?pg=mods&md=75

Cubans vs SADF rofl

Looks like fun!
Yeah I worked with those guys. We exchanged some models for our (me, Hellfish6 and some others) Operation Flashpoint Bushfires mod. Never got released though :-(

[Clint_Durban]

Yeah I worked with those guys. We exchanged some models for our (me, Hellfish6 and some others) Operation Flashpoint Bushfires mod. Never got released though :-(

Why not? :-(

It looks like a great deal of hard work and effort has gone into making it!

[Ironsight06]

Why not? :-(

It looks like a great deal of hard work and effort has gone into making it!
Check this, it's for Armed Assault:
http://armed-assault.net/bushwars/index.html

Lots of Bushfires work went into this. These new guys got more time than Hellfish6 and I did ;)

[Nordwind]

Great pics there Wamba! I had no clue a bushwar mod was being made for Armed Assault, I'm gonna have to watch this one closely.

[Deftoner]

Head over here for back copies and the latest SA Soldier magazine. All in PDF

http://www.dcc.mil.za/sasoldier/sasoldier.htm

[Mirlo]

Hi, I am new in this forum and I am interested in the South African Army. I would like to ask to all of you the following:

1- Where is the 1 SA Tank Regiment based?
2- What Regiments are equiped with the Olifant tank?
3- What ammunition can the olifant tank fire?
4- How many Olifant Mk1B tanks were manufactured? and how many Mk2 have been ordered?. If I am right should be 26 as a maximum.

Best regards

Mirlo

[Dethstar]

As far as i know, all the armour is stationed in bloemfontein, I know the G6 are there. I was on a course at the artillery school that was cool, unfortunately no pics though, i dono if that is even allowed

[Mirlo]

Thank you!!!!

best regards

Mirlo

[Vorster]

Hmm state secrets it is that you want. But no seriously now the amount and names of the units are secret. But I can tell you there are 5 armored regiments of which 4 is reserve force. Which are active and which are reserve is easy to find out. Get a copy of Fred Bridgeland's War for Africa and the names of 4 of the 5 Regiments appear within the text. With a bit of detective work and good old reasoning you would work it out.

It is pretty much known that only 2 or 3 Mk1b's were build in both the so called Optimal and Normal configuration. All existing Mk1a's will be rebuild to MK2 standard with about 3 coming of the line a month as planned, thus a total of about 168.

No the G6's are not stationed in Bloem but here in good old Potchefstroom at the School of Artillery and 4 Artillery Regt. Most of the armor and rest of the G6s are stored at bloem, actually De Brug, but the units which use them are scattered all over SA. PTA Regt being one of the armored units is stationed in PTA as you might gather from the name.

The Olifant uses locally developed 105mm ammo based on the british L7 ammo with a bit of Isreali tech thrown in.

[Mirlo]

Hmm state secrets it is that you want. But no seriously now the amount and names of the units are secret. But I can tell you there are 5 armored regiments of which 4 is reserve force. Which are active and which are reserve is easy to find out. Get a copy of Fred Bridgeland's War for Africa and the names of 4 of the 5 Regiments appear within the text. With a bit of detective work and good old reasoning you would work it out.



Jaja, I don't think that this are state secrets... I am spanish and more or less I know were are all the spanish units and what is its equipment. As far as I know there are 4 regiments equiped, 1 (1st SA Tank Regiment) is a permanent unit and the other three are reserve units.


It is pretty much known that only 2 or 3 Mk1b's were build in both the so called Optimal and Normal configuration. All existing Mk1a's will be rebuild to MK2 standard with about 3 coming of the line a month as planned, thus a total of about 168.


Only 2 or 3??? that is very few.... Then all units were and are equipped with the Mk1A. I supose that the Olifant Mk1B is this:

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/olifant/images/olifant_tank5.jpg (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/olifant/images/olifant_tank5.jpg)



The Olifant uses locally developed 105mm ammo based on the british L7 ammo with a bit of Isreali tech thrown in.


Do you know designation names??? I have found 2 of them in the Denel website, but I would like to know if there are more.

Best regards

Mirlo

[Dethstar]

yeah but SA government is very paranoid ya know!

[wilhelm]

Many more than 2 or 3 Mk1B's were built!

[exT70]

Even if it is public knowledge, it is still covered by the SA State Secrets Act (even if not a state secret) and one can strictly be prosecuting for publishing info that is not in the public domain. Vorster did however cleverly tell you how to get the info.
1 SATkReg is indeed the permamanet force component, with its attached reserve force units. The strength (whether active, staffed etc., or lack thereof, of the reserve units is another topic alltogether.


Only 2 or 3??? that is very few.... Then all units were and are equipped with the Mk1A. I supose that the Olifant Mk1B is this:

This is indeed one of the Mk1B versions, and yes, only a few were built. Nobody seems to know for sure how many were built. I would hazard a guess fewer than one thinks. No money. 1SA Tk Reg is still equiped with Mk 1A's. Please do however ignore most of the nonsense published on the internet as to its spesifications (both Mk1A and Mk1B), it is mostly wildly inaccurate and usually based on the specs for the Mk1.

Do you know designation names??? I have found 2 of them in the Denel website, but I would like to know if there are more.

L7 fires standard NATO 105 rounds. No specific designations in common use (other that ICN no. ammo description). Denel might however market them under some sort of other designation. Referred to as APFSDS (FS), HEAT, HESH, White Phoss (Smoke) and Cannister. Very old 84mm (20pounder) barrels and ammo (APDS and HE) are at times used during training to save costs (or were, due to large quantities of ammo remaining).
APFSDS available in Mk 1, Mk2 and rumoured Mk3. No other designations available. Mk2 is "probably" "similar" to Israeli M111.

[Vorster]

A good source for info on the Olifant is Pierre Victor's Veg magazine. He worked on the project in all it's permutations. He is working up a book on the Olifant as we speak if I can get my ass into gear and sent him footage he asked for.

Yes the Mk1a is still the standard MBT of the SANDF. No there were only a few Mk1bs build. Problem was they were interim vehicles with the intention of replacing the Olifant totaly with a locally build MBT based on the TTD (west german help on the TTD guys have a look at the shape - destinctly leopard).

Mk 2 is an uprated Mk1b with technolgy transfered from TTD and some new bits and bobs such as laser designation warning system (rumoured - no confirmation as yet as this will be a definate state secret. We have the tech I just don't know if we have the money).

Mk1b is not a centurion anymore by a long shot. We only use the hull bottom of the old centurion, add torsion bar suspention, new engine, a new turret with blow off panels that looking at the test footage will take a 120 mm hit and still protect the crew, new gunnery systems and most important of all our homegrown (?! german help once again) of chobham. No 120 guys the turret ring is too small to fit this gun although we did develope a 120 mm (rhein metal borshig copy) and a 125 mm gun (T72 copy - got a few from poland in 1989).

You might have noticed two types of Mk1b - the optimal configuration with a turret very similair to the magach 7c (i believe, my Isreali tank ident is a bit rusty) with the wedge shape in the front and the normal configuration which is slab sided as shown in the picture.

I agree about the amount of crap on the net on the capabilities of these vehicles. They are still very capable MBTs despite their age and will whip anything on the african continent. The kill to loss ratio in 87/88 was something like 0/40. We only had some tanks damaged by mines and arty fire never had one out right destroyed allthough, to appease the cubans on the threat, we did leave behind three damaged olifants during the last attack against Tumpo during 88 which was too damaged to remove under the heavy fire directed at the sqaudron.

A warning to all the Saffers on the thread. Keep your pics and comments to the minimum. You might end up getting a little visit from MI. I did so be warned.

[playtym]

A warning to all the Saffers on the thread. Keep your pics and comments to the minimum. You might end up getting a little visit from MI. I did so be warned.

Really? How naughty were you? What state secrets did you reveal? Links to the posts please, so we can all judge how deep we are in it. :)

[wilhelm]

Really? How naughty were you? What state secrets did you reveal? Links to the posts please, so we can all judge how deep we are in it. :)

Hear hear!! MI can blow me!

[Deftoner]

Really? How naughty were you? What state secrets did you reveal? Links to the posts please, so we can all judge how deep we are in it. :)


Hear hear!! MI can blow me!

Oh please....hand em a 50 and they'll leave you alone.....maybe even for a coke and Spur burger.... :roll:

Bribery can get you anywhere in Africa...

[playtym]

Here's a question. Can MI from the SANDF do anything to me regarding stuff I say about the SADF?

[Vorster]

As my mother used to say: gekrap waar dit nie juk. Mostly our bush war research. We requested documents relating to the war. Plus the fact that I seem to find myself on some form of military base in SA and that my fiance is ex-SAMS and that I am friends with Pierre Victor. It seems his nuclear weapons book got them very annoyed.

But beware guys realy. These guys are just as uptight as in the past. All though there isn't anything like a state secret anymore they do love to keep thinking there are. We got on the radar just for visiting a base. Some wanker within the south african modeling community is feeding these guys info esspecialy if you are intrested in South African equipment like me. (My casspir is in the shelf ready to build - want to do it in yellow with a blue band but don't know if that it pc)

[Vorster]

About the SADF? Now be carefull here you are actualy still bound by the official state secrets act you signed back as a NDP.

The SANDF is alot more dangerous as any operational or technical info could land you in jail or the bloke who told you.

As I have said these guys are very anal. Most documents relating to the border war is still classified up to the eyeballs and you need a jackhammer and alot of dynamite to prise it from their cold dead hands. We have been trying for a year or more just to get the unit diaries and AARs released for our research.

[Deftoner]

MI (Ex?) guys website (http://uk.geocities.com/sadf_history2/mimain.html) for anyone interested.

Nothing amazing tho....

[playtym]

Ah, is this where I should say, "crank caller! Crank caller! I don't know you, I'm hanging up now!" ?

Talking about bush war research - would anyone on this thread happen to know how or where I can get hold of video footage relating to the bush war - you know all the news footage, the pre-intake specials with Martin Ballie prepping you for call up etc?

Oh yes, and while I'm making requests - does anyone have copies of those PhyOps kinda leaflets we used to distribute? You know - the A5 size ones with the pics of the dead terrs and the messages like "come to South West and be killed. The SADF lions are waiting for you."

I had some, but gave them away somewhere along the line - didn't think that I'd want to have something like that in a collection at the time I guess.

[playtym]

About the SADF? Now be carefull here you are actualy still bound by the official state secrets act you signed back as a NDP.

HA! There's an easy way out of that - I'll just tell them that I'm an ANC spy and only signed it so I could infiltrate the racist white boer military and steal all their secrets and that I've been in hiding for fear of my life and have just come out now to reveal everything I learnt!! :)

They'll luv me so much I might even become president!!

[Vorster]

Contact the SABC if you have money to pay for the convertion from tape to dvd. I had a list of avialable material a while back but misplaced it along the way. But be prepared to pay R300 an hour.

[playtym]

Contact the SABC if you have money to pay for the convertion from tape to dvd. I had a list of avialable material a while back but misplaced it along the way. But be prepared to pay R300 an hour.

**** Me! I wouldn't have taped over the damn stuff if I'd known it would be so damn valuable!!:cantbeli:

[Vorster]

Believe it brother and it isn't that great. I got two pieces you might be intrested in. Willem Steenkamp's War on the border part 1 and Operation Thunder Chariot.

[playtym]

Believe it brother and it isn't that great. I got two pieces you might be intrested in. Willem Steenkamp's War on the border part 1 and Operation Thunder Chariot.

On DVD? Any chance of getting a copy from you?

And for the guys from MI - "Crank Caller! Crank Caller!"

[Vorster]

Yes on dvd send me a pm we can discuss there.

[exT70]

A good source for info on the Olifant is Pierre Victor's Veg magazine. He worked on the project in all it's permutations. He is working up a book on the Olifant as we speak if I can get my ass into gear and sent him footage he asked for.

Looking forward to the book (so get your ass into gear and send him the footage!!!!)(will "please" do?)

...only a few Mk1bs build. Problem was they were interim vehicles with the intention of replacing the Olifant totaly ......

Due to fears of more modern T's arriving in Southern Africa towards the end of the 80's/early 90's. Some members at School of Armour started getting very gittery at the time (or were they looking for more funding to complete "Loggim")

Mk1b is not a centurion anymore by a long shot.

Sort of. Still uses the same basics. Any Centurion vetaran will still recognise the hull and especially interior. Even turret is only add-on armour (but that naturally depends on which Mk2 will end up being used - I hazzard a guess it will be the AAD'06 type and not the total new turret one)

...blow off panels ...

I'm not to sure about the blow-off panel bit. The total new turret might have it (not touched, smelled, tasted it yet), but the AAD'06 Mk2 named version did not, even though the bins on top might look that way. Lots of add-on "boxes" though. Don't know the content, but Chobham type is probably not a bad guess. I have a large set of pics, some of which I have poste links to before on one of these threads.

..wedge shape ...
Have you been on this one yet? Is that wedge "solid" (just plain thick heavy armour) or is a rod-breaker like the later Leo2's with a similar shape?

A warning to all the Saffers on the thread. Keep your pics and comments to the minimum. You might end up getting a little visit from MI. I did so be warned.
As long as the SANDF keeps almost everything in the public domain, I'm happy. Just don't pull a JD on yourself (John has been scarce lately). His episode almost got interested.

[Vorster]

Loggim or TTD was completed. It is in the museum at the School of Armor. I had the privalege of have a little hop on it last april. The Loggim was to be a test bed and Mk1b to be an interim until the newly designed tank could be fielded.

The blow off panels I mentioned was tested on Loggim and slated for integration into Mk2. As I have stated the test footage I have shows it taking a 120mm hit and still protecting the compartment.

The Mk1b optimal turret had only one prototype build. Below is a pic of it taken at the museum. The turret has been stripped internally and doesn't resemble that of a normal Mk1a. Can't tell about the solidity of the wedge from the pic though. Will contact Pierre and have a chat.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6804/img2160ww5.jpg

I have a video at home showing the evolution of the Olifant and the plans made to improve the vehicle.

I also have some intresting footage of tests conducted between the Mk1b and Mk1a. The more powerful Mk1b trounched the Mk1a in mobility tests.

In another sales video from OMC you can see the whole process in which an Olifant is upgraded. As I have mentioned, basically they start from the hull up only keeping the sidewalls and bottom. They replace the top of the hull with newer armor, suspension, engine, uprate the turret or build a totally new turret. The Mk1b and Mk2 is essentialy the same but newer tech has been added. The hunter/killer system on the Loggim as well as the CIS has been integrated. It also looks from the photos posted here that the Mk2 will still keep the old turret but has ad on armor. (strange as a new turret was developed for it integrating the lessons and tech developed for Loggim - cost is probably the real reason for not building a new turret instead of upgrading the old turret)

Another difference I have seen on the pics here is the difference in the configuration of the driver's compartment

[playtym]

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7306/iklwa06xa3.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8833/iklwa04ut7.jpg

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3056/iklwa03ub0.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8906/iklwa09fg4.jpg

[Hellfish]

Is the iKlwa a conversion from the Ratels or are they new builds?

[Vorster]

Convertions.

[R/cst]

The iKlwa multi-role armoured vehicle is stems from the famous and combat proven Ratel ICV and is designed for the challenges of asymmetric warfare. The design is such that iKlwa can be manufactured as a new built vehicle or existing Ratel ICVs can be converted to iKlwa ensuring a cost efefctive solution to current owners of Ratel ICVs. The primary role is that of an armoured personnel carrier armed with 12,7mm heavy machine gun and a crew capacity of a driver plus 15 fully equipped soldiers. The design is such that the vehicle configuration can be changed in an unit workshop with a 6 ton overhead crane capacity to configurations like infantry combat vehicle, fire support vehicle, ambulance, command vehicle, anti-tank guided missile vehicle or even a sophisticated cavalry vehicle fitted with a multi system turret. The armament of the multi system turret consists of a 30 or 35mmcannon, anti-tank guided missile launcher plus a 40mm automatic grenade launcher or 7,62mm light machine gun. The high payload capacity allows for uparmouring the ballistic protection from the standard STANAG 1 to STANAG 3 or even STANAG 4 in selected areas.

http://www.baesystemsomc.co.za/Default.aspx?tabid=2163

[exT70]

Were told by the salesman at AAD '06 that the vehicle (iKlwa) was a proposal put forward as a competitor in the SA IFV replacement project. Was found not acceptable and is now being marketed elsewhere. According to their representative it is a new-build (or the model on display) and larger than the existing Ratel. Looked that way as well, but then I've never climbed into the back of a Ratel through a drop door. Massive and impractical in the back.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5382.jpg

Too many eggs in one basket. Set-up with the three seats and gunner with his fold-down sights and controls in the door facing side-ways also not that good an idea.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5386.jpg

It is/was still a concept vehicle. The remote weapons system (turreted) was still a mock-up and not operational.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5391.jpg

Running the turrret from the door might still create a couple of problems (thought the simpler 12.7 RWS set-up might already be working.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5385.jpg

I'd hazzard a guess that it is also offered as an refurbishment on existing Ratels (a rebuild), but would then not encompass the full iKlwa get-up, just providing the rear door and RWS, with some mechanical upgrades.

[Vorster]

As I understand it from my source the ratel will be upgraded to Iklawa standard starting soon. Will confirm.

[exT70]

As I understand it from my source the ratel will be upgraded to Iklawa standard starting soon. Will confirm.

In the lion's den in Pretoria end next week. Will try to remember to ask the people who would really know.

[Vorster]

I asked one of the lead designers on the project a few questions on the project. Here is the basic gen. The Iklawa was designed in secret by OMC without the SANDF knowing.

During the IFV trails and tenders OMC (Now BAE Land Systems South Africa OMC) build two prototypes (not Iklawa, got a photo of the second hull at home) and even went as far as to do blast testing on the second. They were way ahead and had spent alot more money on their vehicle. Due to this the SANDF cancelled their part in the tender project all though their version was way better than the Patria. (This is the official reason but he believes corruption and inside dealing was the main cause). The SANDF said that the tender wasn't equal anymore.

OMC however knew that the Patria was going to be grossly overprised for what the army wanted and that the modular nature that it toted whould not become a reality due to the cost. So in secret they designed the IKLAWA, a ratel convertion that cost a 10th of a Hoefyster and can be changed from one configuration in less than an hour using an overhead crane and a few simple tools.

Iklawa is a basic ratel with it's hull and drive train upgraded. You take a standard ratel and you build an Iklawa. The engine is moved from the rear to the front, the tyres are larger and there is extra armor on the hull. The rear hull has been cut down to allow the instalation of a drop down ramp and the roof extensively modified. Now most of the photos seen on the net is of the mk 2 version. It has since gone into the mk 3 variant which looses the old ratel drivers compartment by cutting the hull back even further thus sinking the windows into the hull. The rear is also trimmed back more with that set of angles at the rear now being reduced to a single panel.

The roof panels come in three sections. By removing the rear or central panel and replacing it with a panel with a turret ring any damn turret you can think of can be fitted. I saw one with an old ratel 20 turret on it. The one shown at AAD was the basic IFV.

"I'd hazzard a guess that it is also offered as an refurbishment on existing Ratels (a rebuild), but would then not encompass the full iKlwa get-up, just providing the rear door and RWS, with some mechanical upgrades."

The Iklawa seen at AAD was build from an Ratel 20. It is not offered as a basic upgrade to the Ratel but rather starts life as a Ratel and becomes the Iklawa.

The SANDF and the rest of the world first knew of iklawa at AAD 2006 like the rest of us. They are seriously considering to buy Iklawa as they can get 10 vehicles for the price of one Hoefyster (this is the true figure if you look at the real cost of the vehicles) which is truely modular. (Bolt off one roof panel, bolt in another drop in a turret. Bolt off this panel, bolt on another drop in a mortar. That is how easy this vehicle converts)

For futher info wait for VEG no 10. There is a full article on the Iklawa in the magazine. I had a peek at it this weekend. It also has the vital specs of the vehicle.

[Ironsight06]

Very interesting Vorster. What's the price per unit of an Iklawa?

[Vorster]

Hmm don't know if I should give out that info. Less than R5 million more than R1 million if you rebuild a Ratel.

[playtym]

Very interesting Vorster. What's the price per unit of an Iklawa?

Don't be so impatiant, wait for the VEG mag dude - they'll probaly say something like, "at a cost of R2.3M each," or whatever the case is. p-)

[Vorster]

Well Pierre is one of the lead designers and you are very close anyway to the real cost of the vehicle. Suffice to say the Iklawa which is a brilliant vehicle will be a beter call for the SANDF.

[Deftoner]

Well Pierre is one of the lead designers and you are very close anyway to the real cost of the vehicle. Suffice to say the Iklawa which is a brilliant vehicle will be a beter call for the SANDF.

I've been wondering what the next assault rifle may be.....The R4 or 5 do the job, but are getting a little long in the teeth.

Any ideas? Maybe the Tavor from our Israeli buds ;)

[Vorster]

I asked old Pierre about that Saterday while we were tanning a tjoppie on the fire. Was to be the CR21 but the project got cancelled. With the demise of Vector there isn't a projected new Assault rifle in the near or distant future. So the good old R4 will soldier on.

[Deftoner]

I asked old Pierre about that Saterday while we were tanning a tjoppie on the fire. Was to be the CR21 but the project got cancelled. With the demise of Vector there isn't a projected new Assault rifle in the near or distant future. So the good old R4 will soldier on.

Yeah, i've read about the CR21 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as26-e.htm), but never really saw that happening from day 1. I suppose if it ain't broke dont fix it? I've never fired an R4/5 only held them....so I guess I can't really comment.





I could really go for a tjoppie right now.....actually really keen for a snoek and some beer bread. *drools*

[Vorster]

Having helt both I would go for the CR21 which is nothing more than a lekker looking R4. It felt balanced compared to the R4. You must remember the CR21 is a bullpup R4. I have seen footage where this rifle is thrown in mud driven over by a samil. They pick it up, slap in a mag, **** it and fire away. Cool thing is you undo 2 screw on the top part of the butt remove the top part of the butt and pull the whole mechnism out in one go. Very easy to strip and maintain.

[Deftoner]

Having helt both I would go for the CR21 which is nothing more than a lekker looking R4. It felt balanced compared to the R4. You must remember the CR21 is a bullpup R4. I have seen footage where this rifle is thrown in mud driven over by a samil. They pick it up, slap in a mag, **** it and fire away. Cool thing is you undo 2 screw on the top part of the butt remove the top part of the butt and pull the whole mechnism out in one go. Very easy to strip and maintain.

Sounds good! I liked the idea, but at the time I heard of it I could see it wasn't going to happen with the whole Vektor thing as you mentioned.

How close is the ejector to your ear? Was it able to be changed from right to left? It must have been much much lighter than the good 'ol R...

[playtym]

Having helt both I would go for the CR21 which is nothing more than a lekker looking R4. It felt balanced compared to the R4. You must remember the CR21 is a bullpup R4. I have seen footage where this rifle is thrown in mud driven over by a samil. They pick it up, slap in a mag, **** it and fire away. Cool thing is you undo 2 screw on the top part of the butt remove the top part of the butt and pull the whole mechnism out in one go. Very easy to strip and maintain.

I've fired a CR21 and wasn't too impressed with the trigger pull on it - lots of creep - a result of the mechanism used to tie the two triggers together I suppose.

I can't attest to the ruggedness of the CR21, but the R4 is certainly one tough beast. We backed our Ratel over one a troop had put down behind the wheel. Bent the bipod and scuffed it up a bit, but nothing else. The thing still worked just fine.

Also seen one that survived a double charged round with nothing other than a burst mag, broken extractor and a bent dust cover.

Our next rifle will probably be the AK! p-)

[Deftoner]

Our next rifle will probably be the AK! p-)

Oh, yes please!! :) I really like the AK family of weapons

[Vorster]

Probably. If Vektor did not go pop that would probably have been sorted out. The R4 is one of the toughest pieces of equipment ever made unlike that piece of crap SS77. The troops report the damn thing falling apart almost like the SA 80. In some units they decided to keep their old GPMGs and give back the SS77.

[Vorster]

We did produce AK ammo so why the hell not TIA of course.

[Deftoner]

We did produce AK ammo so why the hell not TIA of course.

Well what about AK-101, AK-102 or AK-108. All are in 5.56 for existing ammo. Similar workings to Galil (R4/5)

Perfect :)

[Ironsight06]

No need to replace the R-4/5. Think the SANDF has bigger priorities,

[Vorster]

More Iklawa photos. First one Iklawa AT version, second the Iklawa during production and the last Iklawa's forebearer the prototype which bid against the patria and which had been blast tested.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2981/jdg3677wq5.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4193/img1078pp0.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6666/img1084td8.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5812/img1125gj5.jpg

[Dark Avenger]

Can anyone provide information on the current status of the Denel Condor 155mm wheeled SPG? The one using a Tatra T-815 chassis?
http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/Artillery_Systems.asp
http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_ArtillerySysCondor.pdf

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8343/tatratruckdenelcondor01uv0.th.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tatratruckdenelcondor01uv0.jpg)http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3739/tatratruckdenelcondor02gq4.th.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tatratruckdenelcondor02gq4.jpg)

[Vorster]

Guys below is a pic of the concept Iklawa mk3. Excuse the poor photoshop work but it shows the further changes to be made to the basic Ratel hull. As I have stated the driver's window will be sunk into the glassis eliminating the old Ratel driver's windows.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5945/mk3conceptax2.jpg

[Ironsight06]

More Iklawa photos. First one Iklawa AT version, second the Iklawa during production and the last Iklawa's forebearer the prototype which bid against the patria and which had been blast tested.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2981/jdg3677wq5.jpg

ATE turret?

Nice pictures :)


Can anyone provide information on the current status of the Denel Condor 155mm wheeled SPG? The one using a Tatra T-815 chassis?
It was supposed to get sold to India. However the Indians favored an Israeli system and the project got canned IIRC.

[Dark Avenger]

ATE turret?
IST Dynamics Un-manned Multi-Weapon Platform.




It was supposed to get sold to India. However the Indians favored an Israeli system and the project got canned IIRC.
I see, thanks ;)

[Vorster]

I believe it is LIW.

[exT70]

Guys below is a pic of the concept Iklawa mk3. Excuse the poor photoshop work but it shows the further changes to be made to the basic Ratel hull. As I have stated the driver's window will be sunk into the glassis eliminating the old Ratel driver's windows.



Gentleman
Please do not label me contrary, obtuse and full of sh%#t (sh@#t) but:

1. the turreted Iklwa version is but a mock-up (or still was a couple of months ago) and it will cost heaps to make it work. How many remote "full" turrets do you see in the world? Unless we will be limited to a RWS type 12.7, I do not see this thing working for some time to come.

2. this Ratel on steriods fits 15 + driver (which gives 13 or 14 dismouts) which gives you way too many eggs in one basket and only two vehicles per platoon (in stead of 4). No matter what you put on top (turret) you end up with a hell of a lot less fire support in your platoon. Unless off course the Ratel rebuild is indeed smaller than the one they had at AAD'06.

3. why take away the ability of the driver to see sideways? Sidevision makes vehicle control so much easier and takes workload off the crewcommander.

4. why take away the vision-blocks in the side on the vehicle? Situation awareness is lost.

5. if we only gain this little in a new vehicle (which pretty much maxes out the development scope on the Ratel), why replace the Ratel in the first place?

which once again brings me back to why the development of the Rooikat based IFV was cancelled. Modernise the engine to something much more compact and mounted in the front of the vehicle, put the dismounts right in the back, keep the profile low, the running gear standard and 8 wheeled and get a platform that is much more mobile, standardisation on all your wheeled vehicles and something that can be uparmoured over time as needed etc.
And something you can perhaps sell.

[exT70]

ATE turret?

Nice pictures :)


It was supposed to get sold to India. However the Indians favored an Israeli system and the project got canned IIRC.


The T6 turret was developed for the Indian deal. Was to be fitted on T72 chassis (which the IA operates extensively - also T90) which is part built in India. Deal was cancelled due to India deciding it does n't have the funds and SA armsdealer being caught asking for bribes (also lead to 20mm anti-matter rifle deal being cancelled - still potential court action outstanding in that deal). T6 turret now offered on G6 wheeled base as well.
Wheeled "truck" version was built in response to Russians, Scandinavians and Austrailia buying similar wheeled art systems. Still no takers there. Which describes SA arms industry. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. We have had some brilliant systems, just can't seem to sell them (except off course the RG family).

[playtym]

[quote=exT70;2237070]Deal was cancelled due to India deciding it does n't have the funds and SA armsdealer being caught asking for bribes (also lead to 20mm anti-matter rifle deal being cancelled - still potential court action outstanding in that deal).quote]

What? Bribery and corruption regarding an arms deal? That SO un-South African! I wouldn't have thought it. p-)

[exT70]

More Iklawa photos. First one Iklawa AT version, second the Iklawa during production and the last Iklawa's forebearer the prototype which bid against the patria and which had been blast tested.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5812/img1125gj5.jpg

This chassis looks like part of project Hoefyster (which is not a specific vehicle, but the whole desigh study and quite a number of hulls and proposals). A number of the final hulls (including the winning design) are lying in Bloem (or was last year still). I have somebody else's "film" pics that I scanned in of the hulls and turrets in PDF format. If somebody can explain how, I can post it here or photobucket or where ever. Or e-mail it. I actually quite liked some of those designs

[Vorster]

1. the turreted Iklwa version is but a mock-up (or still was a couple of months ago) and it will cost heaps to make it work. How many remote "full" turrets do you see in the world? Unless we will be limited to a RWS type 12.7, I do not see this thing working for some time to come.

True but developement of this type of turret has been ongoing at LIW for the Ratel since '96. This was the first time I have seen mention of it in any literature. You do not need a damn complex thing. Take for instance the Ratel ZT3 which was a basic addapted Ratel Command turret. Another little point is that you can still use the basic Ratel turrets by just modifying the roof panel. As I have stated there is a mockup with a Ratel 20 turret on it.


2. this Ratel on steriods fits 15 + driver (which gives 13 or 14 dismouts) which gives you way too many eggs in one basket and only two vehicles per platoon (in stead of 4). No matter what you put on top (turret) you end up with a hell of a lot less fire support in your platoon. Unless off course the Ratel rebuild is indeed smaller than the one they had at AAD'06.

True but it has been found that those much vaunted shooting ports isn't worth ****. Once again I must remind you that these are only mock up and there is still alot of work to be done on the turrets. If a bigger, and believe me for a IFV a bigger turret such as a 20mm turret would be fitted, your concerns about fire power will be countered. The 12.7mm version is an APC not an IFV. Another factor to concider is that this is a much tougher basket than say a Ratel Mk3.


3. why take away the ability of the driver to see sideways? Sidevision makes vehicle control so much easier and takes workload off the crewcommander.

Have you ever sat in a Ratel. From the seat in the drivers position you can't see much through the sides anyway. The repositioning of the position also provided a smooth glassis plate which is easier and cheaper to manufacture and offers advantages in the area of armor protection. There has been many cases were a bullet would be deflected from the glassis through the windows.


4. why take away the vision-blocks in the side on the vehicle? Situation awareness is lost.

In a vehicle bouncing and lurching cross country at speed during a battle in which alot of dust is kicked up you might see something through that small piece of glass, but what are you going to do about it you will in most cases miss that which you are aiming it. The russians did away with vision blocks and firing ports finding them as useless as **** on a bull. Another factor is that it weakens the armor at the point were the block is build into the hull. A uniform surface without holes cut into it is alot stronger than a non-uniform one.


5. if we only gain this little in a new vehicle (which pretty much maxes out the development scope on the Ratel), why replace the Ratel in the first place?

This is were you are wrong. We gain alot. First is improved armor protection. Both due to design and the added on armor as well as new flat bottom mine protected technology. Secondly the vehicle is truely modular as I have stated the option of weapon fits is unlimited. It can be switched from an APC to and IFV to a Tank Destroyer to a mortar carrier within an hour or two. The automotive performance of the vehicle is greatly improved and prelimanary trails have shown it can go places where mountain goats fear to tread. Do not let the 6x6 fool you this is one very capable off road vehicle. It has increased range.

The Ratel has become very old and in need of replacement, but I do not agree on the Rooikat option. How will you fit in a section of infanty into the vehicle. The engine takes up most of the rear of the vehicle. The low profile of the vehicle doesn't realy allow for a crew compartment and a turret at the same time.

If a Rooikat is to be used the whole hull whould have to be rebuild as well as many automotive changes. This makes it very expensive. The Iklawa on the other hand is a cheap rebuild on an existing hull.


...standardisation on all your wheeled vehicles...

Standarising on the Ratel will be a beter call as there is more Ratels in the inventory than Rooikatte and I will kiss the man in the armored corps that would allow his precious rooikat be taken away from him to be rebuild into a IFV. This means totaly new vehicles have to be build which would bring the prise tag to that of the Hoefyster's R30 million compared to the Iklawa's 3 million.

The idea of standardisation started with the ratel family and what is wrong if your armored scouts are build on a different chassis than your family of mechanised infantry vehicles. If you want things to be uniform rather do away with the Rooikat and fit a similiar turret to an Iklawa. Much cheaper than to build 2000 new mechanised infantry vehicles from the rooikat.


...keep the profile low...

If a crew compartment is to be fitted the profile would automatically become larger. It would take on the shape of a LAV or Stryker.


...uparmoured over time...

Hmm the armor on the Iklawa and Rooikat is about the same with the Iklawa a bit beter I think. With the advent of new composite armors it would be easy to uparmor and Iklawa.

Without giving the game away too much unamed middle eastern countries has allready expressed intrest in the Iklawa as their armies standard mech inf vehicle.

[Ironsight06]

The T6 turret was developed for the Indian deal. Was to be fitted on T72 chassis (which the IA operates extensively - also T90) which is part built in India. Deal was cancelled due to India deciding it does n't have the funds and SA armsdealer being caught asking for bribes (also lead to 20mm anti-matter rifle deal being cancelled - still potential court action outstanding in that deal). T6 turret now offered on G6 wheeled base as well.
Wheeled "truck" version was built in response to Russians, Scandinavians and Austrailia buying similar wheeled art systems. Still no takers there. Which describes SA arms industry. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. We have had some brilliant systems, just can't seem to sell them (except off course the RG family).
I am pretty sure the Indians were also supposed to buy the Condor. That's why it was fitted on the Tatra truck, it's in use in India a lot. I will see if I can dig up an article about it.

[exT70]

Quote:
… development …ongoing … since '96 … You do not need a damn complex thing ... still use the basic Ratel turrets … mockup with a Ratel 20 turret on it.
I fully agree with you re complexity. Which is one of the problems I have with the Patria. More to break. KISS. Keep it simple stupid. Troopproof. A remote turret is however not a simple matter, hence nobody using it yet. And probably why to date (even after working on it since ’96) there are only mock-ups.

Quote:
… only mock up … a lot of work to be done on the turrets. …bigger turret such as a 20mm turret would be fitted, your concerns about fire power will be countered…
You are putting half your platoon in one vehicle. Vehicle becomes US (for whatever reason) and half your platoon is lost/stranded, half your fire support is lost etc (incl the Pl Cmd or Pl Sgt). My problem is further not with the size of the gun, but fire support (not fire power). You now have 3 or 4 20’s (with co-ax) per platoon giving fire support and suppressive fire. Replace that with 2 veh only, you end up with less fire support. Same problem with up-gunning. Instead of 3 or 4 20’s, you have 2 30’s or 35’s, which means less rounds carried, less volume of fire on the front, which gives more nasties more time to fire at you (eg. RPG’s etc). Further, instead of 3 or 4 gunners and crew commanders with eyes on the front, you are now limited to 2. Also Pl Cmd veh is less effective than A, B or C cars. Now that accounts for half your Platoon.
Quote:
…Have you ever sat in a Ratel … From the seat in the drivers position you can't see much through the sides anyway. …smooth glassis plate …easier and cheaper to manufacture …
Must admit, I have n’t physically driven a Ratel (as driver) myself for ages (legally or otherwise, trip authority or not!) I however still get to “play” in the turret commanding from one a couple of times a year (and not often enough by half) And true, driver sitting back cannot fully see 90degrees to left of right. He does however very regularly have to and does look to both sides. Remember how often the driver slumps forward to look to the sides? He can (and does) however still keep track of the vehs to his left or right, stay in formation, keep it safe during bebussing and attacks on foot and well as whilst jockeying from one firing position to the next. This takes lots of work-load off the veh commander, especially when the veh commander is also the Pl or Coy Cmd. You have enough trouble keeping track of the tactical situation, the positions of 65, A/T, the Pls and Echelons, to spend time prompting a driver. I have worker on/in vehs in our local conditions where drivers had both good and no lateral sight, and believe me, it helps. A lot.
Seeing as this is a rebuild, changing the glacis makes the veh more expensive, not cheaper (yes and I am being pedantic). Sloped armour is however an advantage.
Quote:
…shooting ports isn't worth **** … In a vehicle bouncing and lurching cross country at speed … small piece of glass … russians did away with vision blocks and firing ports finding them as useless … weakens the armor … uniform surface without holes …
I have never seen anybody fire from a firing port, and will not allow it on vehs I am in control of. Plain dangerous. And as mentioned, not effective Firing ports in my book has always been a source of ventilation only!!. (ask any person who has spent time at the back. Vision blocks however gives the dismounts situational awareness (SA) before they debus. See stupid cameras on Patria. Makes a huge difference once their feet hits the ground. Holes makes dif to structural integrity, not armour. Have always been informed that vision ports are toughest bit on Ratel.
Quote:
… is improved armor protection ... added on armor … truely modular … Do not let the 6x6 fool you this is one very capable off road vehicle.
Increase in armour protection is an extra thin sheet of metal covering the existing vehicle (with very limited spaced armour effect). Modular fits (in terms of usage) I have my doubts about. Modular fits in order to ease maintenance and repair of damage/battle damage in the field I like. More to break, rattle loose. Jack of all trades, master of …. Automotively it is still limited to 6 wheels, the track width, high centre of gravity, trench crossing ability and its ground pressure remains basically the same.
Quote:
… Ratel … old and in need of replacement… Rooikat option…how will you fit in a section of infanty … engine takes up most of the rear … low profile of the vehicle doesn't realy allow for a crew compartment and a turret at the same time.
The Ratel is old, but the last rebuilds have not been that long ago. What the Ratel needs is maintenance, which we seemingly cannot afford at present. The PF units’ maintenance budgets for A vehs is shocking, to say the least. We rather seem to want to spend money on new veh, than maintain what we have (which we won’t have money to maintain as it is).
New Rooikat engine (off the shelf and more compact) to the front. Remember current unit is sanction-time-don’t-have-a-choice-unit. Rooikat’s drive system should make it fairly easy to move. Dismount section in what is now the engine bay. Enough space. Remember that this is a direct “fall-out” back ramp design. You don’t need that much space. Nobody needs to stand up, turn and debus through door (current Ratel) and you don’t fit 12/15 (iKlwa). Only a section. Our troops are today a lot smaller than before. If you insist, put new higher roof on engine bay as well. 20, 25, 30 or 35 already designed turret in middle. Leaves plenty of space. (pic attached is of dualdrive rooikat from back, but gives an idea)

Quote:
If a Rooikat is to be used the whole hull whould have to be rebuild as well as many automotive changes. This makes it very expensive. The Iklawa on the other hand is a cheap rebuild on an existing hull.
On cost I can’t argue. Are spare (super numery) Rooikats, but number of new hulls will have to be buildt. Not replacing Ratels one for one. IFV replacement project is for only a couple of hundred or something like that vehicles (if that much). Remember basically only 2 PF Mech Inf units left (and they are way understaffed), together with 6 ACR units.
Quote:
… armor on the Iklawa and Rooikat is about the same … new composite armors it would be easy to uparmor and Iklawa.

See comment re iKlwa armour above. Due to ground pressure you can only add so much more armour to the Ratel/iKlwa (which is probably why they fitted bigger tyres). With the Rooikat, you have lower ground pressure (8 wheels) and a lot of spare weight capacity with the 76 turret replaced with smaller lighter 20/25/30/35 turret. Can therefore as needed in future add lots more armour, both active and passive. More mobile veh as well.
Quote:
Without giving the game away too much unamed middle eastern countries has allready expressed intrest in the Iklawa as their armies standard mech inf vehicle.

And I take it they are current users of the Ratel as well ….. or would that be telling?

[Vorster]

Let's tackle your first problem, that of firepower. First of the sample seen here and at AAD 06 was an APC not an IFV. If a turret is to be fitted the Troop compartment would get smaller, thus less troops and more firepower. No army in their right mind would fit a mechanised platoon into only two vehicles. That is the domain of the motorised infantry which fight dismounted and are only carried into battle by an APC. In present confuguration as seen here the Iklawa is perfect for motorised infantry. The least amount of vehicle in a unit (you want as few as possible as they offer no real support to the battle think of a buffel, mamba or casspir here) but offer more protection than a contemporary APC or even a truck.

Next the remote turret. It is not a given fact that a remote turret is to be fitted. An IFV version will most probably be fitted with the turret developed for hoefyster or one of LIW's ready build turrets. The conceptual drawings show just such a configuration. You can even use the old ratel turret if you want and cut down further on cost and the need for new training and the introduction of a new type of ammunition.

Vision is your next problem. Well periscopes seem to be fitted to the Mk3 which will restore the sideway vision. Side vision will also be a problem on a Rooikat conversion were the driver is under a steel hatch with a few periscopes to look through. In any case during battle the armored shutters on the ratel is anyways up further restricting the view. I agree cutting the glassis back like that is more expensive but the improved armor balances out the cost.

Now your reservation about the modular nature of the vehicle will be as applicable to the Ratel as Iklawa. How much does Ratel 90 differ from Ratel 20. To my knowledge it is the turret and a change in the internal configuration of the benches. On Iklawa the basic vehicle is the same. All that is changed is one of the 3 roof panels. Not much to shake loose or rattle there is it. The idea is to provide a base vehicle which can me modified for any job.

Now to the add on armor. How do you know that is just a thin sheet of steel and what is behind it. Amazing advances have been made on light weight state of the art armor some of it which has found it way here. It would be a lie if I said I know what it is but take this into consideration - the Rooikat is only proof against 23mm hits in the frontal arc and shell splinters and 12.7mm on the sides. Iklawa is proof against much the same.

On cross country performance lets wait until the trails are done before making an early judgement.

I agree the Ratel is still a very capable vehicle, but aged in design. I also agree on the amount of units to that are still active. The hoefyster will provide 3 of those with new vehicles. What about the 5 others. There isn't enough money to retrofit them as well.

Now hoefyster started as project were 4 companies; BAE Land Systems South Africa OMC, Mechanatronix, LTS and IADS, were asked to build four concept vehicles for a proposed new modular IFV. The winning design would help the end user in specifying the exact specifications that a vehicle would have to adhere to in the event of a tender being put out for a new class of vehicles. The idea was not to produce a new vehicle but rather to gain a beter understanding of what that vehicle should be capable of.

For various reasons the LTS concept came out tops and an international tender was put out for a new class of IFVs based on the LTS concept. The only bidder was Patria Vehicles Oy (hope I have it right). Since the bid has been approved for 262 new vehicles it has come to light that it would be prohibitively expensive to build the vehicles in the 5 basic configurations (mortar, ifv, command, AT, fire support) that the army wants, alot more than was orginally planned.

This is what promted BEA to build the Iklawa in secret and offer is as an alternative.

The rooikat idea could work, and I have a sneaking suspition the design of rooikat played more than just a little part in the design of the vehicle offered by BEA during the Hoefyster concept phase. But once again you will have to build all of them new as there just isn't any surplus rooikatte laying around. Thus they will cost as much, if not more than patria's vehicle. (keep in mind that the company will work their development cost into the price where as patria has achieved notable sales success and have long since recounted their development cost.) It will aslo take alot longer to do a full production run on this type of vehicle than a simple convertion process on an existing vehicle. For a cash strapped South African the Iklawa makes more sense than the hoefyster as they can get alot more bang for their buck and would standarise on one vehicle instead of the situation which has since arrisen.

The countries intrested aren't current users so their Iklawas will be newly build.

[Ironsight06]

The countries intrested aren't current users so their Iklawas will be newly build.
There are other countries interested?

[Vorster]

jip there is.

[Ironsight06]

jip there is.
You probably can't tell who but just out of interest how many?

[Vorster]

Not sure but mostly mid eastern. That is all I know.

[exT70]

[quote=Vorster]

And the discussion continues...

The vehicle at AAD06 was a “Multi-role Armoured Vehicle”, armed with a mock-up remote controlled turret fitted with a missile system, 40mm AGL and a 20/30 or 35. Not exactly APC country. If its armed like that, eventually it will get used as an IFV (or then the SA definition of it). The 12.7 version in the brochure is an APC.

And since when is the SANDF known as ‘right minded”

Fitting a turret behind the engine will leave an “interesting” set-up inside the vehicle and some work to be done to handle the weight distribution. Engine and turret then in the middle of the vehicle, putting a lot more weight on the single front axle/left front etc. More work will also need to be done to the existing chassis. I doubt that it will be able to handle a turret further back as is.
The “new”sloped glasis might however be “pulled” back even further (to where the intruding turret starts) for better protection.
And please do not mention the use of the existing Ratel turret. Or rather the upside-down 20. That is the one thing I would fix and that has always been the bane of Ratel crews. At CTC you at times these days have only half your vehicles serviceable due to US 20s

When was the last time you saw Ratels with shutters up? And when is the last time you even saw a Ratel periscope for when the shutters are up? Let alone one being used. And that is for a reason.

The 90 has a braced and strengthen turret roof to handle the extra weight of the 90 turret. Rumour had it that the first prototype unstrenghtened Ratel fitted with the 90 turret suffered a structural failure. I do not know if the suspension was reworked as well. Anti-tank platoon however seems, despite the extra weight and being top-heavy, more mobile in the field than the Coys. Might just be my imagination. So it will not just be a matter of swopping roofs. Fitting an 81 turntable will also not just be a matter of “swopping”. Bit more complicated than that. But as with the Ratel, one vehicle type can be base for whole series.

Seeing as it is a Ratel re-built, the body of the vehicle is still the same, with a metal “sheeting” cover over it. See your pic of the iKlwa in the “factory” where the attaching protrusions can be seen. The sheeting is about 3mm thick (guesstimate) and looks similar to that on the Patria. Unfortunately did not take pic of it, but prodded and poked this system on both vehicles. See pics below. One of sheeting cover on Patria, one of iKlwa side back showing covers.

Rooikat in IFV format will have lots of spare weight capacity to be uparmoured. Not so with Ratel/iKlwa.
Will only have trials once turrets etc go past mock-ups to real weights/set-up. But I do remember how much the Rooikat was running around sans turret when it got tested at the beginning.

Even if they only equip one Bn with newer vehicle, there will not be money to actually use the vehicles. The Mech Bns at present are so underfunded, understaffed and Mech inactive that they are doing almost nothing, how will they be able to use new vehicles? The SANDF will have to rethink its funding, which is impossible while the current deployments are happening without additional funding. We are quickly reaching a stage were only reserve units will have a Mech ability.

I’ll e-mail you the PDF of the end-result of the Hoefyster project.

This is what promted BEA to build the Iklawa in secret and offer is as an alternative.

Instead of rehashing an old design, spend money on maintaining, training and properly using what we have. If we don’t have funds to properly train, exercise and use the stuff we have now, what is the use of getting new gold-plated equipment. Well trained crews in old equipment it better than mothballed multi-million rand toys.


One rumour that is however doing the rounds is that on the purchase of new IFVs, the existing Ratels will be transferred to MOT units. In such a case the whole iKwla thing does indeed make sense.

[playtym]

[quote=Vorster]I’ll e-mail you the PDF of the end-result of the Hoefyster project.

A copy to me as well please. If you don't mind. I PM'd my address to you.

[Vorster]

The vehicle at AAD06 was a “Multi-role Armoured Vehicle”, armed with a mock-up remote controlled turret fitted with a missile system, 40mm AGL and a 20/30 or 35. Not exactly APC country. If its armed like that, eventually it will get used as an IFV (or then the SA definition of it). The 12.7 version in the brochure is an APC.

As I have stated the multi role turret will most probably not be used and only offered for export (I gather this rather mean looking turret is what is driving international intrest). The turret build for hoefyster will most probably be used so as to standarise on a single turret design. It also makes sense as BAE is the prime contractor for contruction of both the hoefyster and iklawa. (it is a strange strange world we live in. LTS in conjunction with Patria won the bid for a new IFV but their competitor BAE LSSA OMC has been contracted to build the vehicles. The turrets is supplied by Denel - thus LIW which if rumour is correct will soon be bought by BAE in on of the smartest moves in a while. It will be the first time where turrets and vehicles will be build by the same company in SA)


Fitting a turret behind the engine will leave an “interesting” set-up inside the vehicle and some work to be done to handle the weight distribution. Engine and turret then in the middle of the vehicle, putting a lot more weight on the single front axle/left front etc. More work will also need to be done to the existing chassis. I doubt that it will be able to handle a turret further back as is.

The chassis has been completely redesigned with strenghtend automotive componants. One clue that the chassis has been redesigned can be seen in the larger wheels. In any case the turret is mounted above both the rear axles spreading the load over both of them. On the ratel the turret was mounted in between the first and seocnd axle. Now to be technically correct this actualy increases the loading on the axles. Now please bear with me as I explain. The normal force or weight of the turret works downwards from the CG of the turret. The CG is an x distance away from the first axle and y from the second. The total force working in on the first axle will be half the weight plus a torque componant equal to half the weight times x. The same will be applicable for the second axle. Now if the turret's cg is almost over the both the second and third axle they now carry the weight of the turret with a reduced torque componant on the each axle because x is smaller.

One drawback I see in this variant is possible nose lightness and tail heaviness. If a vehicle is nose light it goes into a trench very well the bitch comes when having to get out of it. I have seen video material on the cheetah were the rear swing arm on the suspention had all but a few of the mounting bolts sheared of after crossing a trench. The main reason was the tail heavy nature of the vehicle (a problem which has still to be resolved in rooikat as well) which increases the impact as th real wheels fall into the ditch. The designers will have to carefully work on balanching the vehicle. A well balanced vehicle wether 6x6 or 8x8 has very good cross country performance.


And please do not mention the use of the existing Ratel turret. Or rather the upside-down 20. That is the one thing I would fix and that has always been the bane of Ratel crews. At CTC you at times these days have only half your vehicles serviceable due to US 20s

Was only a suggestion and one which I think the military is seriously considering as a cost saving measure. Why would you build new turrets if the old ones are still around. What are they going to do with a 1000+ surplus turrets. Now I share your hate of the 20mm fitted on the ratel, but in a cash strapped SA don't you think it would be wise to say fit the ratel 90, zt3, command and 20 turrets as an interim measure while improved turrets are developed. The army will in any case at some stage replace the 90mm as the standard fire support vehicle with a form of low pressure 105mm gun which would necesitate a new turret (The yanks are now testing a low pressure 105mm on the stryker and might have it in production soon as the AT componant of the stryker family. They are even testing the LEO gun on the stryker to build a light weight SP gun).

Another thing to remember is that the use of the old turrets will cut down on training costs as the crews would not have to be retrained on a new turret. If a new turret then becomes avialable it would very easy to fit and then start training crew. It also provides a "quick fix" as you can quickly rebuild the ratels and field a force of alot more capable vehicles without having to wait 2 to 5 years as a turret is being developed. To the army this makes sense, they get a new more capabale vehicle in the shortest possible time at a low cost which can be upgrade as new tech becomes avialable.


The 90 has a braced and strengthen turret roof to handle the extra weight of the 90 turret. Rumour had it that the first prototype unstrenghtened Ratel fitted with the 90 turret suffered a structural failure. I do not know if the suspension was reworked as well. Anti-tank platoon however seems, despite the extra weight and being top-heavy, more mobile in the field than the Coys. Might just be my imagination. So it will not just be a matter of swopping roofs.

You must remember the designers who worked on Iklawa also build Ratel. They will have taken into account the fact that you need stronger roof members and roof for a larger turret. The prototype was in fact build on a Ratel 90 hull. The automotive componants were strenghtend on the mk 2 of the Ratel 90, but then it was done on all the ratels as the major change between mk1 and mk2 and subsequently mk 3 was an improvement in the chassis and automotive componants (thus the axles, gearbox and engine). On Iklawa this has once again been improved. Did you know on the first Ratel 90s the driver had to depress the clutch allowing the car to roll back as the gun fired because the axles couldn't handle the recoil.


Fitting an 81 turntable will also not just be a matter of “swopping”. Bit more complicated than that. But as with the Ratel, one vehicle type can be base for whole series.

Agreed but on Iklawa it would be a damn sight easier to do the convertion.


Seeing as it is a Ratel re-built, the body of the vehicle is still the same, with a metal “sheeting” cover over it. See your pic of the iKlwa in the “factory” where the attaching protrusions can be seen. The sheeting is about 3mm thick (guesstimate) and looks similar to that on the Patria. Unfortunately did not take pic of it, but prodded and poked this system on both vehicles.[/qoute]

Once agian the advent of composite armors has made it possible of uparmoring a vehicle quite substancialy without adding much weight. We have being using composite technology for years on our MBTs (mk1b, mk1b optimal, logum and mk2). The prime contractor for all these vehicles was OMC and I would hazzard a guess they integrated it into the Iklawa. But looking at the air gap in my honest opinion that wouldn't be enough to disrubt the explosive jet of a chemical energy round. It won't surprise me if at some stage we might see an iklawa with slat armor as on the stryker.

But then again the rooikat is just as vulnerable to chemical energy rounds. I have seen an appriasal of the project done many years ago in which the project leader on the user side said their philosophy is that most handheld kinetic energy weapons could be ignored. That is why rooikat is only proof against 12.7 on the sides and rear and 23mm in the frontal arc. They made no mention of chemical energy rounds which suggest they were thinking that if a bloke with a RPG want's to take a shot at them the best defence would be to feed him a lead pill before he get's a shot off.

[quote]Rooikat in IFV format will have lots of spare weight capacity to be uparmoured. Not so with Ratel/iKlwa.

Agreed the swing arm suspention on the rooikat derived from Eland as well as the 8x8 configuration will allow more weight to be added. This is one reason why project Hoefyster called for a 8x8. But once agian the time, money and effort it would take to redesign the rooikat into a useable IFV will be immense. Time and money is precisely what the SANDF doesn't have. This is why they are looking at a off the shelf design like the patria. Also as I have mentioned a newly build vehicle is also alot more expensive than a rebuild and upgrade such as the Iklawa.

The army wants a new IFV cheaply and quickly in large numbers to replace the ratel. This is why Iklawa fits the bill so well. I am not saying that they should stop development of a new vehicle but if the lenght of the development cycle of a new vehicle is taken into account; 10 - 20 years; the Iklawa would buy them time until such a vehicle is ready for production.


Will only have trials once turrets etc go past mock-ups to real weights/set-up. But I do remember how much the Rooikat was running around sans turret when it got tested at the beginning

Actualy the vehicle is in trails using an existing turret. I think you must forget the fact that the vehicle was fitted fit that mock up. It would most probably, as I have stated, be fitted with an existing turret to drive development cost down. These days it is all about using an off the shelf product instead of designing a new one. The design cost could never be recounted in the era where state treasurers assholes pucker up tighter than a snare drum when it comes to defence spending. A off the shelf product also has the advantage of being all ready tested.

I would hazard a guess that the countries intrested in Iklawa would specify their own turrets on the vehicles. Canada did it on the RG32 asking for an Australian build turret to be fitted. It wouldn't surprise me if the countries intrested specified a turret which could be found on most of their country's combat vehicles. The mid east blokes love to do that as it cuts down on training of both crews and maintenance personell.

One thing which we have not discussed yet is maintenance. If the Iklawa is used there would be little retraining of existing tiffies as they would recognise most of the componants with ease. It aslo cuts down on production costs as a the existing production lines can be used instead of tooling up a new one.

The one thing I think comes out from all my arguments is that Iklawa might not be the best option but it shure as hell is the quickest and the cheapest if they want a new IFV.


Even if they only equip one Bn with newer vehicle, there will not be money to actually use the vehicles. The Mech Bns at present are so underfunded, understaffed and Mech inactive that they are doing almost nothing, how will they be able to use new vehicles? The SANDF will have to rethink its funding, which is impossible while the current deployments are happening without additional funding. We are quickly reaching a stage were only reserve units will have a Mech ability.

Instead of rehashing an old design, spend money on maintaining, training and properly using what we have. If we don’t have funds to properly train, exercise and use the stuff we have now, what is the use of getting new gold-plated equipment. Well trained crews in old equipment it better than mothballed multi-million rand toys.

Not even going to disagree with you there. In my opinion the Ratel can go on for years still and you don't need smart new toys do a job good training can also do. I also don't think it it is neccessary to replace them, but the army wants them replaced come hell or high water so in my opinion if they want to do it so badly rather invest in a cheap vehicle which is very similiar to what they have cutting down on maintance (if a new vehicle is build a whole new stock of spares have to be bought) and re training. Upgrade and rebuild has always been the poor mans option for improvement of equipment.


One rumour that is however doing the rounds is that on the purchase of new IFVs, the existing Ratels will be transferred to MOT units. In such a case the whole iKwla thing does indeed make sense.

Won't put too much stock in this rumour. The army is organised allong two distinct lines - Heavy (your tank and mech inf units, the truely conventional force) and light (motorised light infantry and specialist units such as 12 SAI on horses and motorbikes). They keep them seperate for a good reason. Most infantry units are light as in our day in age our main functio is to serve as peacekeepers. Light motorised infantry makes sense for this as they can deploy quickly. They would turn the whole damn army into motorised units if they could but some still realise we need a conventional element in the army with heavy mech equipment. Another little fact is that the army is looking at replacing the Mamba and Casspir with a form of RG32 derivative which is alot more air portable (which the iklawa isn't realy) but that is a story for another day.

[exT70]

[quote=exT70;2240313]

A copy to me as well please. If you don't mind. I PM'd my address to you.

I'm off-line till Mo. Will send PDF's then.
Vorster, I trust you got the 1B pics.

[Vorster]

Jep thanks. Will throw your dvd in the mail on monday.

[Ironsight06]

New Milan's:

SA orders Milan ADT

South Africa placed an order worth just over EU18 million (R167.4 million) with European missile maker MBDA on 20 December for the latest generation Milan ADT firing posts and training simulators as well as Milan 3 munitions. MBDA is jointly owned by BAE Systems (37.5%), EADS (37.5%) and Italy's Finmeccanica (25%).

South Africa becomes the first export client for the Milan ADT firing post which is compatible with the future Milan Extended Range (ER) missile. MBDA says the new digital technologies incorporated within the ADT firing post have led to notable system enhancements in detection, reconnaissance and identification (DRI).

The systems will equip motorized infantry battalions currently deployed in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Burundi, as well as the Special Forces.

Jean-Pierre Talamoni, MBDA's Group Director of Sales and Business Development congratulated South Africa for becoming the first export customer of this new system. "This first contract is the result of the excellent work carried out by MBDA's technical and commercial teams."

Variants of the Milan are used by about 40 countries. Around 10,000 firing posts and 360,000 missiles have been sold since 1972. South Africa was a user of the original Milan missile, but retired them about 13 years ago. The purchase, codenamed Project Kingfisher, will see the upgrade of the original firing posts, which remained in storage, to ADT standard.

The project will satisfy about half the Army's actual requirement, an industry source says. Also part of the package is straining, simulators and logistics.

Army-technology.com reports that with two missiles the ADT weighs less than 45kg. The firing post was qualified in 2006 and the first guided firing of the missile system took place in May of that year. The MILAN ER missile has a range extended to 3000m and a new, multi-effect warhead which can penetrate 1,000mm Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) or Rolled Homogenous Armour (RHA), or more than 3m of reinforced concrete. A direct attack mode has been added as well as improved anti-jamming capability.

[Clint_Durban]

Have a look at this!

South Africa's Border War. Documentary about the involvement of the SADF (South African Defence Force) in Namibia and Angola during the bushwar.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=06E6AD2CCCD5EDAE (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=06E6AD2CCCD5EDAE)

If anyone has any SADF related photos to share, can they please e-mail them to me at fishclint@hotmail.com and put 'SADF photos' as the subject! I would like to make some more SADF photo videos!

Regards,

Clint

[Ironsight06]

Very nice Clint! Do you also have the video's in original format?

[Clint_Durban]

Very nice Clint! Do you also have the video's in original format?

I have only come accross an old video tape copy! (not original)

Rare as hens teeth!

[Ironsight06]

I have only come accross an old video tape copy! (not original)

Rare as hens teeth!
No I mean before you uploaded them to Youtube (MPEG, AVI, etc.). I might be able to do some tricks on it to restore it a bit ;)

[Tosk]

Hi guys, first post here...

I am very interested in SADF/SANDF, so always reading your great posts, there has been much info here about the Army or the SAAF, but very little about SAN. It would be great if some of you can post some images info about the strike craft and if there is a replacement/modernization for them in the short term.

Here´s a link on latest exercise Atlasur VI between the navies of Argentina, Brasil, South Africa & Uruguay. I believe that it´s the first operation of SAS Isandlwana frigate (please correct me if i am wrong). Lots of interesting photos, sorry but it´s in portuguese:

http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/atlasurVI/index.htm

Greetings from Uruguay,

Tosk

[Ironsight06]

Some nice SA Arty video's on Youtube:

G-6
http://www.youtube.com/v/h9z_VfZ3W7M

G-5
http://www.youtube.com/v/FVWWtZyRELg

M-5
http://www.youtube.com/v/qgMkP3L1aXA

[playtym]

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2121/vlermuis8ne.jpg

[Pete031]

Should I bother going through this for some 32 Battalion pics?

[Wamba]

866532 troops with Milan, Ops Modular

866632 on patrol , Oom Willie se pad
866732 patrol early days, note .30 Browning "borrowed" from Eland armoured car
8668Pseudo op deep behind Fapla lines, back left Mike Geldenhuys, son of Gen. Jannie Geldenhuys, front right, Gawie Venter, killed 2006, Iraq, deeply missed by all...




There you go mate....

[Wamba]

and some more....


For more info on 32 go to;

http://www.32battalion.net/

as well as a cool dedication site run by somone I have seen here. No names no packdrill. :-)

http://flecha.co.uk/

[Pete031]

and some more....

Cheers... Always loved the terrible ones.

[Ironsight06]

Two other vids from the same author:

G-6 and Bataleur
http://www.youtube.com/v/UqIGjiCaDks

SADF National Service
http://www.youtube.com/v/KbfjNJK79I4

Enjoy :)

[Clint_Durban]

32 Battalion photo video

http://www.youtube.com/v/DEoJNNuwTvs

[Deftoner]

32 Battalion photo video

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="<A href="http://www.youtube.com/v/DEoJNNuwTvs"></param><param">http://www.youtube.com/v/DEoJNNuwTvs"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DEoJNNuwTvs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

How to embed:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/deftonesmark/Embed2.jpg

;)

[Clint_Durban]

I give up! :cantbeli: See if you can do it for me! :)


How to embed:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/deftonesmark/Embed2.jpg

;)

[Deftoner]

I give up! :cantbeli: See if you can do it for me! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/DEoJNNuwTvs

[Clint_Durban]

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/DEoJNNuwTvs

Thanks! p-)

[Deftoner]

Thanks! p-)

No problem. Its pretty easy once you've done it once. :)

[Masai]

anyone know what this is ? (i know it is a radar of some sort)

i was at a friends work and took these pics, sorry for the bad quality, i took pics with my phone.

[Tosk]

Hi all!!

It seems to be a Cymbeline artillery radar...please someone correct me if i am wrong.

[Hellfish]

Hi all!!

It seems to be a Cymbeline artillery radar...please someone correct me if i am wrong.

Yeah, def some kind of arty radar.

[Ironsight06]

anyone know what this is ? (i know it is a radar of some sort)

i was at a friends work and took these pics, sorry for the bad quality, i took pics with my phone.
It's a "Green Archer" it's a development of the Cymbiline. Only noticeable difference is the different radar dish.

[Tosk]

Do someone know if it´s still in use in the SANDF?

[Ironsight06]

Do someone know if it´s still in use in the SANDF?
It's outdated, I don't think it's still in service.

[TallGuy]

Can somebody post more hi-res photos of modern SANDF infantry? There doesn't seem to be a lot of those around...

[flecha]

Can somebody post more hi-res photos of modern SANDF infantry? There doesn't seem to be a lot of those around...

Photos or SANDF Infantry ?

[TallGuy]

Photos or SANDF Infantry ?
Yeah, infantry type photos. I see a lot of armor and artillery photos but not many photos of individual soldiers training etc.

[Vorster]

Green archer has been withdrawn in the early eighties. They are now nothing more than monuments.

[playtym]

http://youtube.com/v/xwt3wWD-g14

http://youtube.com/v/3rmsILypDNs

http://youtube.com/v/jkR2OHSr4IY

http://youtube.com/v/05BLb0hqMz0

[playtym]

http://youtube.com/v/EQpLgI8bbUY

http://youtube.com/v/5WX0EaD3f3E

[playtym]

SAAF Gripen
http://youtube.com/v/gw0an8F6hmQ

SAAF Cheetah
http://youtube.com/v/lcmATn8H-2s

http://youtube.com/v/DUaJuVqeMNY

[playtym]

http://youtube.com/v/mE_Bu031ogI

[playtym]

The owner of these photgraphs, Hennie Kotze, has kindly given his permission to display these photgraphs here. If you're lurking, thanks Hennie, and best of luck with the new venture!

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/7510/2507926016c822b4606oxj9.jpg

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/1113/250801767b8ab09f6d1ovz8.jpg

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/6769/2507926045e4ecefbbcorp2.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9854/250792607389ffc6ac4olc2.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4915/250792614cb41f77342ocm6.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8280/250792610c6f9b7ddb7ory3.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6994/250796852617e874467ojt1.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3416/250796855f8823474aaobm8.jpg

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/3265/25080175857061d11b5oow1.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1999/25079685690df87c940ome8.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2144/25080175241d6e6ee94orw7.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9530/2508017548c683a7188oux7.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9096/251317335605a8bb384ost9.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3555/2507968507263fd8a62ojx1.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7596/25079684906efc119a5ofx7.jpg

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2169/250792620c371e1e544ovf5.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9228/250796846ce66ed41a8oqb9.jpg

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/9686/2508017610bc75371b2opl5.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7020/25080462143757abf26okc1.jpg

http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/9527/2508017723d2080d7eeoxu1.jpg

[Pete031]

I met a lot of Afrikanners who were serving with 3 PARA in A-Stan... Good fellas.

[playtym]

I met a lot of Afrikanners who were serving with 3 PARA in A-Stan... Good fellas.

You mean Afrikaaners that used to serve with the SADF 3 Para? You make it sound as if 3 Para is serving in A-Stan. :)

3 Para's a Reserve Force unit, and has pretty much become ineffective with the number of guys taking up contracts. I know several that have gone over. A good mate just left a few weeks ago to go across.

[Pete031]

You mean Afrikaaners that used to serve with the SADF 3 Para? You make it sound as if 3 Para is serving in A-Stan. :)

3 Para has pretty much become ineffective with the number of guys taking up contracts. I know several that have gone over. A good mate just left a few weeks ago to go across.

No I mean Afrikaaners that serve in 3rd battalion The Parachute Regiment, in the UK. They were in Sangin, A-Stan

[playtym]

No I mean Afrikaaners that serve in 3rd battalion The Parachute Regiment, in the UK. They were in Sangin, A-Stan

Ah, ok. I though you were talking about our 3 Para.

[Pete031]

They were good guys. Said there was no future in the SADF, thats why they went to the UK. But I don't really want to get into a political debate over it all.