South African National Defence Force

[Pete031]

You mean Afrikaaners that used to serve with the SADF 3 Para? You make it sound as if 3 Para is serving in A-Stan. :)

3 Para has pretty much become ineffective with the number of guys taking up contracts. I know several that have gone over. A good mate just left a few weeks ago to go across.

No I mean Afrikaaners that serve in 3rd battalion The Parachute Regiment, in the UK. They were in Sangin, A-Stan

[playtym]

No I mean Afrikaaners that serve in 3rd battalion The Parachute Regiment, in the UK. They were in Sangin, A-Stan

Ah, ok. I though you were talking about our 3 Para.

[Pete031]

They were good guys. Said there was no future in the SADF, thats why they went to the UK. But I don't really want to get into a political debate over it all.

[playtym]

They were good guys. Said there was no future in the SADF, thats why they went to the UK. But I don't really want to get into a political debate over it all.

That's for sure. It's why I got out, but I'm still in SA.

[Pete031]

It's too bad. I hope to make it there some day. My heritage is Dutch... Would love to see SA

[playtym]

It's too bad. I hope to make it there some day. My heritage is Dutch... Would love to see SA

It's a beautiful country, you won't be disappointed - I gaurantee it.

[calimero2]

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3691/250792610c6f9b7ddb7oth8.jpg


Could someone ID this 120mm mortar please?

[Ironsight06]

Denel M-5.

[mcoleman762]

Hi All,

I only check out this site from time to time, but just recently stumbled across this fantastic thread. Playtym, that last batch of photos of 4 Artillery Regiment is outstanding! I have a question for you, or any of the South African members.

I noticed that several of the soldiers in those photos are wearing a S2000 camo version of the Recce Niemoller type webbing. I have seen a photo of this webbing displayed at a military trade show a couple years back, and the information available suggested it was a prototype piece. I am curious if this is now a general issue piece of kit, or perhaps undergoing trials?

It's also interesting to see the right-hand member of the M4 60mm mortar team wearing the new S2000 "African Warrior" webbing. Excellent photos all around!

Cheers,

Mike

[KingoftheHill]

Good pics of the SA Arty!

South Africa is carving itself a nice little defense industry :)

[Vorster]

The guys were not to happy with the previous issue uniform cut and webbing. The new Soldier 2000 system is undergoing trails at certain units and would slowly start filtering through as money becomes avialable.

One thing on those soldiers though, they are from 1 Tactical Intelligence Regt based in potch. We have no infantry unit apart from the reservists of 1st Bat Regt De La Rey based in potch. They are a semi special forces type unit specialising in scouting and observation providing 43 SA Bde and 42 SA Bde with up to date tactical intelligence. They are an intresting unit in being commanded by a woman. The unit did quite well in Ex Saboka last year.

Just one question to PlatTm did those bastards hit anything last year because the few times I went they couldn't shoot for ****?

[playtym]

Those aren't my pics guys. I found them and posted them here. I'm still trying to contact the owner to get his permission (which I should have done first :oops:). Maybe I'll be able to convince him to join MP.net and then we can get first hand info from him.

I'm going to take them down until I have confirmation.

=====

OK, permission received. The pics are back up.

[sierratango]

I was there the same day:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64954&page=55&highlight=Regiment+South+Africa

although those photos are much better than mine...

[Clint_Durban]

I have posted more SA military videos! I still don't know how to embed them in a post....so if anyone can do the honours, here they are!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sn6xwvAM7E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfT7akMnojw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8_Qgeoa2F4

Regards,

Clint

[playtym]

I have posted more SA military videos! I still don't know how to embed them in a post....so if anyone can do the honours, here they are!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sn6xwvAM7E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfT7akMnojw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8_Qgeoa2F4

Regards,

Clint

Here you go.

http://youtube.com/watch/v/7Sn6xwvAM7E

http://youtube.com/watch/v/NfT7akMnojw

http://youtube.com/watch/v/e8_Qgeoa2F4

[wilhelm]

Can anyone identify the vehicle behind the Cactus radar vehicle? The photo is from Prmeportal and was taken by Chris Baxter. It appears to be some air defense related exhibit. I am unable to clearly make out the vehicle which is by the sign with "1" on it by the hangar. Anybody know?

[playtym]

Can anyone identify the vehicle behind the Cactus radar vehicle? The photo is from Prmeportal and was taken by Chris Baxter. It appears to be some air defense related exhibit. I am unable to clearly make out the vehicle which is by the sign with "1" on it by the hangar. Anybody know?

IIRC I've got some pics of it at home from when I was there - pic of the information plate as well. I'll post them if I do.

[Vorster]

Appears to be a SAM 9.

[playtym]

I found this pic of two Buffels on display in Luanda. They were apparently captured at Cuito Cuanavale.

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/2539/3669769580e9759edf0b169ds8.jpg

[Vorster]

NO and I repeat NO buffels were lost during the battles around Cuito. It might be possible that the vehicles in question were a)either left behind during earlier ops or b)left behind when we withdrew after Tumpo 3 as a alot of stuff was left in place.

I just also want to make one thing clear. There never was a battle for Cuito Caunavale. NEVER! We attacked the Tumpo logistics base on the eastern bank of the Cuito river with the aim of destroying the bridge over the Cuito river and the logistics base so as to deny FAPLA a jump off point for future attacks into south eastern Angola in the direction of Mavinga and ultimately Jamba. The town is 10km to the west of the bridge. Yes we shelled the town to keep the air base closed but that is it.

To say there was a battle of Cuito Caunavale implies we tried to take the town which was never the aim of the SADF and a falicy continued by the Cubans and the ANC.

[Hellfish]

Appears to be a SAM 9.

Yep. SA-9.

[playtym]

To say there was a battle of Cuito Caunavale implies we tried to take the town which was never the aim of the SADF and a falicy continued by the Cubans and the ANC.

Seeing as they're the ones displaying the vehicles they'll try and perpetuate this story. The info that came along with the pic was to that effect - I added the "apparently" as I didn't believe it myself, but wanted to share the picture.

[playtym]

OK, this is the vehicle directly behind the Cactus - the SA-9 Gaskin - as Vorster and Hellfish have already pointed out.

http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/4020/sa9gaskin01of07fp8.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3439/sa9gaskin02of07vu2.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6757/sa9gaskin03of07ej3.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8886/sa9gaskin04of07ha2.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9707/sa9gaskin05of07bb6.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3659/sa9gaskin06of07fz4.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2964/sa9gaskin07of07id4.jpg

Beyond that is this radar. I thought I'd taken a pic of the plate attached to it, but didn't. I don't have a clue what it is I'm afriad.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5069/unknownradar01of03nl8.jpg

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6627/unknownradar02of03hq5.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3346/unknownradar03of03wj0.jpg

[Hellfish]

It looks like an American trailer that the radar is mounted on. I'm not even remotely an authority on such things, however. It could very well be a search radar for a SA-3 or something.

[Ironsight06]

It looks like an American trailer that the radar is mounted on. I'm not even remotely an authority on such things, however. It could very well be a search radar for a SA-3 or something.
Could be a modded Bar lock, if the radar dishes were moved.

[playtym]

Does anyone have any info regarding this version of the Rooikat?

It's from ********************, where they say it was taken at the Sofex Defence Exhibition in Jordan.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7503/rooikatantitanksouthafrlw0.jpg

[Hellfish]

Cavalry variant, IIRC with a 35mm cannon and Mokopa (sp?) missiles.

[Dark Avenger]

Tank hunter with 20mm cannon, SS-77 MG and Denel Ingwe AT missiles in an IST Dynamics Predator turret (http://www.istltd.com/dynamics/products_NPT.asp). Like one version of the Jordanian Temsah HIFV.

[Clint_Durban]

Here you go.

http://youtube.com/watch/v/7Sn6xwvAM7E

http://youtube.com/watch/v/NfT7akMnojw

http://youtube.com/watch/v/e8_Qgeoa2F4

Thanks! You will have to teach me the fine art of embeding my vids!

[Hellfish]

Tank hunter with 20mm cannon, SS-77 MG and Denel Ingwe AT missiles in an IST Dynamics Predator turret (http://www.istltd.com/dynamics/products_NPT.asp). Like one version of the Jordanian Temsah HIFV.

I stand corrected. p-)

[wilhelm]

Thanks guys....I think the original photo with the radar trailer behind it confused me a bit..

[Clint_Durban]

Here is a video relating to Operation Rachel! p-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UilvautsoQ

[playtym]

http://youtube.com/v/0UilvautsoQ12345678910

[cbreedon]

QUOTE=playtym;2316594]12345678910[/QUOTE]
cool song... anyone know where I can get it.

[playtym]

cool song... anyone know where I can get it.

PM Clint. I think he has it on a CD.

[wilhelm]

So, does anyone have any clearer photos of the Rooikat ICV that was proposed?

[HCV]

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2121/vlermuis8ne.jpg

Where did these MG42-type machine guns come from? Did South Africa ever buy the MG42/59 or MG3 from anyone? Were they captured? How common are they in the SADF? What is its local designation? Many thanks!

Cheers

HANS

[HCV]

Probably. If Vektor did not go pop that would probably have been sorted out. The R4 is one of the toughest pieces of equipment ever made unlike that piece of crap SS77. The troops report the damn thing falling apart almost like the SA 80. In some units they decided to keep their old GPMGs and give back the SS77.

When did Vektor (LIW) go under?

What's the deal with the SS77, I saw different dates of introduction (1987 and 1990), and also that it got pulled from service due to problems, but was re-introduced in 2003 . . . any idea about the story behind that?

Also, is the Mini-SS77 in service?

Thanks!

Cheers

HANS

[HCV]

It is the Jordanian version with the Ukrainian KMDB BAU-23x2 turret.[/URL]

Has this actually been adopted by Jordan or is it just a prototype?

Cheers

HANS

[Dark Avenger]

Jordan already operates the BTR-94 with the same turret, some of which have been donated to Iraq. Form the information I have Jordan operates the Ratel 20 and the upgraded variant with the BAU-23x2.

[Ironsight06]

Jordan already operates the BTR-94 with the same turret, some of which have been donated to Iraq.
All of them got outphased, Ratel is the replacement of the BTR-94. At least that's what I read somewhere

[Dark Avenger]

You are right, the BTR-94s were given to Iraq after being retired from Jordanian service.

[baboon6]

Where did these MG42-type machine guns come from? Did South Africa ever buy the MG42/59 or MG3 from anyone? Were they captured? How common are they in the SADF? What is its local designation? Many thanks!

Cheers

HANS

Only photo I've ever seen of this weapon in SADF/SANDF service. Never read anything about it either. Standard vehicle-mounted machine gun is still the MG4 (7.62mm Browning M1919).

[Nordwind]

Only photo I've ever seen of this weapon in SADF/SANDF service. Never read anything about it either. Standard vehicle-mounted machine gun is still the MG4 (7.62mm Browning M1919).

Heres an other one. Kinda fuzzy but I'm pretty sure its an MG3/42 on there. http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1295/reccondos1vf9.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=reccondos1vf9.jpg)

[playtym]

Only photo I've ever seen of this weapon in SADF/SANDF service. Never read anything about it either. Standard vehicle-mounted machine gun is still the MG4 (7.62mm Browning M1919).

Yes, the only time I've ever seen those are mounted on the Vlermuis.

I read in a book I have that on one of the attacks the recces did on a swapo base in Angola that every guy was armed with an HK-21 so as to increase their firepower. I'll see if I can find which book it was.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8243/hk21ewbeltfd1.jpg

I guess these guys just had/have some freedom regarding the weapons they could/can use?

[HCV]

Weird that they would mount the MG3 when they already have several other designs in service.

Cheers

HANS

[Vorster]

The Recces had a pretty open budget being able to buy what they liked. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they bought some of these weapons. But a source inside the Recces told me they prefer the RPD as a light SAW.

On the SS77. It is one of the worst SAWs developed anywhere. The troops absolutely hate it. It has this nasty habit of falling apart. That is why certain units still prefer the GPMG. Further more the GPMG has alot more stopping power than the 5.56mm of the SS77. It is in service but it is only slowly getting to all the units.

[rsasoldier]

The ss77 is not as bad as believed. My unit 6 SA Infantry Battalion is waiting for ours. One of the main tasks of 6 SAI Bn is Air Assault which includes fast roping. It is so much easier to get out of the door of an Oryx with a weapon that has a folding stock and of course it is slightly lighter as well. When we used the ss77 during training at Infantry School a couple of years ago we had no big problems with the weapon and I am sure the few problems it may have had has been ironed out.

I should also add that the calibre of the ss77 is 7,62mm and not 5,56mm. It is still classified as a LMG in the South African National Defence Force, but the Mini ss is a 5,56mm SAW.

[playtym]

Welcome rsasoldier. It's always good to see another South African pitch up here.

Now come on already! Post the pictures we all know you've got! :)

[rsasoldier]

Thanks

Still trying to figure that part out. I tried to post, but I need a url so I have to find a site that will host the photos before I can post.

[playtym]

Try Imageshack. It's probably the best place to host them. Sometimes it's incredibly slow though and frustrates the hell out of me.

http://www.imageshack.us/


There's also Photobucket. I think it's much more user friendly, but they limit your monthly bandwidth, so after a while the pics will stop displaying.

http://photobucket.com/

[rsasoldier]

Thanks, playtym. I will give Imagashack a crack, but I am currently in Sudan so the slowness may be worse.

[schwarz]

MP.net


122345

[wilhelm]

Welcome rsasoldier. I have also used the SS-77, albeit briefly many years ago. I didn't have a problem with it at all. I think that the main reason it has not replaced the FN LMG is because the FN is actually a very good LMG. One of the best in fact. Also, the decline in defence budget from the early 1990's also put a spanner in the works of many replacement projects.

[playtym]

Thanks, playtym. I will give Imagashack a crack, but I am currently in Sudan so the slowness may be worse.

I have one word for you. PHOTOS. Stay safe and take LOTS of photos. :)

[rsasoldier]

Welcome rsasoldier. I have also used the SS-77, albeit briefly many years ago. I didn't have a problem with it at all. I think that the main reason it has not replaced the FN LMG is because the FN is actually a very good LMG. One of the best in fact. Also, the decline in defence budget from the early 1990's also put a spanner in the works of many replacement projects.

I agree, wilhelm. I get the impression though that the ss77 is a very good copy of the FN MAG. Standby for a photo post from me. I just wish there was a faster way to do this, due to the slow speed I cannot post half of what I want to. :)

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/141/405510030_f032aa0cc2_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/140/405516552_b9390dd6e9_o.jpg

[wilhelm]

I agree, wilhelm. I get the impression though that the ss77 is a very good copy of the FN MAG. Standby for a photo post from me. I just wish there was a faster way to do this, due to the slow speed I cannot post half of what I want to. :)

Nice post rsasoldier. There are some elements of the FN MAG in the SS-77, as well as elements from other designs and some new stuff. Makes sense to take the bits that work well...

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/405520624_2838076e27_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/405521078_a3854c3330_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/405633119_7807bdf2e6_o.jpg

[playtym]

I agree, wilhelm. I get the impression though that the ss77 is a very good copy of the FN MAG.

I thought it was more like a mix of the PKM and the FN-MAG into one weapon.

[rsasoldier]

I will have to post more photos later. Unfortunately Sudan does not have the best internet connectivity in the world.

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/144/405650832_411b52c147_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/405657312_24ad3d3289_o.jpg

[playtym]

I will have to post more photos later. Unfortunately Sudan does not have the best internet connectivity in the world.

HaHa. My pet gripe at the moment is how my ADSL at home has been off for over a week. Even Sudan has better internet than us!!! :-(


Aweome pics, if you keep it up with these photos you're going to become my new favorite poster on MP.net. woot

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/405669152_5b7ba9270b_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/405669413_94a4e17ffa_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/405672959_023e14883b_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

As a matter of interest. The post by SiFiOn of the weapons displays on page 49 of this thread was of my unit. The fast roping photos are also of my unit. I was there, but I have no idea who SiFiOn is. Maybe I know you; care to send me a personal message? :)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64954&page=49

[Hellfish]

Great photos! Welcome to the forum.

[Deftoner]

Nicely done RSASoldier! 16 quality posts so far.

Just wait until you visit OT/H....

[rsasoldier]

Thanks. More to come.

[Ironsight06]

Great pics and welcome to the forum rsasoldier!

[exT70]

The ss77 is not as bad as believed. My unit 6 SA Infantry Battalion is waiting for ours. One of the main tasks of 6 SAI Bn is Air Assault which includes fast roping. It is so much easier to get out of the door of an Oryx with a weapon that has a folding stock and of course it is slightly lighter as well. When we used the ss77 during training at Infantry School a couple of years ago we had no big problems with the weapon and I am sure the few problems it may have had has been ironed out.

I should also add that the calibre of the ss77 is 7,62mm and not 5,56mm. It is still classified as a LMG in the South African National Defence Force, but the Mini ss is a 5,56mm SAW.

This is the "second isseu" of the SS77 and most of the "problems" listed in the posts above relates to the "first isseu", when the weapon was just plain bad (or so I was told, then still in my SAAC days prior to SAIC and the ACR and did not at the time use it). In the many years in the middle, changes were made, as has happened to most weapon systems worldwide after introduction (M16 and SA80 being prime examples of how wrong you can get something first time round). The SS77 accordingly suffers from its old bad rep. I attach a ref to a pic of the Mini SS77 below.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5305.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/DSCF5305.jpg)

Other problem the SS77 has is what it is replacing. The MAG is one of, if not the, best LMG ever used worldwide. It is still in use today by many (look what the Yanks (M240) and Brits are using in Iraq and A’Stan) and gave brilliant service to the SADF and SANDF for many years, despite the general age of the SA ones (and the fact that some of the skills in operating them has been lost). I don’t know if a total replacement is really due (would have preferred replacing them with new model MAG), but I’m not the powers that be. People are today still referring to the good old days of the R1 (despite the R4/R5 being a brilliant weapon), so expect the many years of criticism to come, no matter how good the SS77 may be (or not). I however seriously doubt that they will last as long as the MAG, but then, nothing probably will.

[playtym]

The MAG is one of, if not the, best LMG ever used worldwide.

My vote for first place would go to the MG-3, but I'd put the FN-MAG at number two.

[Dark Avenger]

MG-3 all the way! (Along with the PKM).

[exT70]

MG-3 all the way! (Along with the PKM).

The idea was not to start a "which LMG is best" war. It has already been done over on Tanknet a short while ago.

But while I'm at it. Some more SA Inf pics (some of which might have been posted before, if so, I appologise):

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/lmg.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/lmg.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/maggunner.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/maggunner.jpg)

[exT70]

Few more.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/patmor.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/patmor.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/r4.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/r4.jpg)

[exT70]

And to not forget about the Mech. A few more.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/Ratel81.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/Ratel81.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/Ratel90.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/Ratel90.jpg)

And lastly. A cry for help from a posting idiot!!!!!!
How do I "directly post" pics on this site (so I have the pic itself in the posting, and not only the ref to it)?. Have been doing the photobucket thing for a while, but would much rather make it easier for others and have the pics as part of the posts.
Thanks.

[playtym]

The idea was not to start a "which LMG is best" war. It has already been done over on Tanknet a short while ago.

No war, just chipping in with our 2c's worth. :hug:

Thank's for the pics.

[playtym]

Put ..... on either side of the link. Photobucket normally has a shortcut for it though.

[sp2c]

wasn't the new Ratel upgrade supposed to be @ IDEX 2007?

are there any photos?

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/126/409617600_34f774a709_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

Since I am in Sudan I have had problems since Friday with my connection so I am able to post more photos today.

[rsasoldier]

wasn't the new Ratel upgrade supposed to be @ IDEX 2007?

are there any photos?

I have afriend at Armour Formation and apparently this new ratel is still too secret to post any photos of. What I do know is that a prototype had a 60mm automatic grenade launcher (not 40mm), a 30mm cannon as well as a 12,7mm machine gun. I really would like to lay my eyes on this vehicle.

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/409619517_0af64f6bd3_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/409624749_895b954a96_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/162/409626362_ca05a5bfc2_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/409628316_1bf9d54a90_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/409629510_02453c09e4_o.jpg

[jerka71_1]

Nice pics RSASoldier!

What´s up in Sudan?

[rsasoldier]

Sand, sun and many idiots. At least I am going home in 26 days. I have been here just under a year already.

[rsasoldier]

I am here as a Military Observer under the African Union, but never in my life have I seen such an uncoordinated mess. Have a look at my blog if you would like to know more. http://www.rsasoldier.blogspot.com . What do you do?

[jerka71_1]

I am here as a Military Observer under the African Union, but never in my life have I seen such an uncoordinated mess. Have a look at my blog if you would like to know more. http://www.rsasoldier.blogspot.com . What do you do?

Thank you for the info. Interesting blog.
Incoming PM.

[Irish_Army01]

Weren't the first Ratels using the AML-20 turret? And isn't the new turret based of those old AML-20 turrets?

Love that Rooikat pic. Never seen it armed with a 35mm gun and ZT-3 missile's.


the Irish DF got them Turrets for the AML Cars..

[Ironsight06]

the Irish DF got them Turrets for the AML Cars..
Yeah check the page after my post ;-)

[Irish_Army01]

Yeah check the page after my post ;-)

Yeah Saw that..Just spent the last hour and a half reading throught this thread..Excellent thread..

Any one have pic's on your load bearing equipment??..

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/409763779_ed4f4a9c46_o.jpg

[Hellfish]

Great blog, RSAsoldier. Thanks for showing it to us.

[Tosk]

rsasoldier, guys...

great photos, keep up the good work...it´s very interesting all this info ion SANDF, my relatives who are in the army & the navy of my country, always tell me about how beautiful your country is, they made a lot of friends of the SANDF in RD Congo and in Atlasur exercises.

By the way...rsasoldier, great blog...it gives some news & ideas of a country and a situation not well known in South America.

Regards to all!!!

[Deftoner]

SANDF militry slang (http://www.allatsea.co.za/army/glossary.htm)

Just found it....thought it might help members from other countries....or even bring back some memories.

[rsasoldier]

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/3933/2754/1600/370930/Untitled%201.jpg

[rsasoldier]

I took this photo when I visited Mahla Base in Sector 6, Darfur, Sudan. We were just leaving on patrol and the section leader was busy loading the weapon. Apparently the US Marines now use exactly the same weapon. Can anybody confirm this please?

[baboon6]

The USMC is trialling a modified version in Iraq, with buttstock, different sights etc.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/03/usmcs-new-m32s-hitting-the-field/index.php

http://192.156.19.109/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/6426CC5F675C4DE08525712D00298F49?opendocument

Apparently quite popular.

One thing I've always wanted to know, how do SANDF troops carry the ammo for the 40mm?

[rsasoldier]

Thanks, baboon6. Do you know if the single point sight we use is uniquely South African or is it used wider than our country?

[Ironsight06]

Thanks, baboon6. Do you know if the single point sight we use is uniquely South African or is it used wider than our country?
I think they are used with Peruvian Armed Forces, I saw a photo of one with a similair sight. I think those sights are pretty standard.

The US isn't trailing them anymore by the way:
In late October 2005, the United States Marine Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps) awarded Milkor USA a contract to produce 9000 MGL-140 launchers, featuring unspecified modifications made at the USMC's request. The order was manufactured in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). The new versions, designated M32 Multiple Grenade Launcher, were deployed to Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) in March 2006 for testing under all Marine battalions.

[rsasoldier]

The ammo is carried in their battle jacket wherever they find space. Of course the side pouches for water are perfect if you do not need that much water. To be honest the 40mm is seldom actually used. Throughout my career there has always been a shortage of ammunition. It's a shame. One of our patrols was attacked in sector 6 and they got out of the situation by using the 40mm when the LMG had a stoppage as they so often have. A friend of mine says he still saw rebels dismounting from their technical when his MGL gunner opened up. When the dust cleared there were no more rebels. This happened a couple of months ago.

[exT70]

Thanks, baboon6. Do you know if the single point sight we use is uniquely South African or is it used wider than our country?

"Red Dot" used to be generally available (Civvie street as well) and was imported from US for SA civvie market at one stage (don't know if it is still the case). Have used it here on a civvie rifle. "Dot" (pillar) too big for most hunting uses.

MGL rounds come in plastic bandolier inside packing cases and can be carried in this bandolier (across front of battlejacket). Individual pockets needs to be torn open to reload and this takes time. Rounds accordingly ends up being carried all over the place in battlejacket while you prep and bomb-up.

MGL had a "difficult" history in SA service. Had a catastrofic incident at Inf School many years back and ammo got the blame immediately thereafter. Weapon was withdrawn for service for a while. Investigation found drum did not properly allign after shot and round exploded inside drum, followed by dramatic cook-off of ammo in drum. Apparently not a pretty sight. The design problem on weapon was fixed, but ammo and the weapon ("snotneus") suffered bad rep for many years after. Quite often can't get HE ammo for it today. For some reason for last couple of years we ended up with loads of target markers though (orange smoke 40mm round), so at least had something to play with.

Very easy to shoot. Too easy. One forgets about the punch at the business end.

[Ironsight06]

Here's a USMC MGL vid posted sometime ago:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98577

[rsasoldier]

I remember that when were trained to use the weapon during my basic training we were shown the small monument where the man died. A very powerful weapon indeed and I will always want a couple in my company.

[Masai]

now that can lay down some hurt real quick.


where'sAPLA !?!?!?

[playtym]

now that can lay down some hurt real quick.


where'sAPLA !?!?!?

You mean the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army, or another APLA?

[playtym]

I remember that when were trained to use the weapon during my basic training we were shown the small monument where the man died. A very powerful weapon indeed and I will always want a couple in my company.

We used to have 12 of those things to a company. :)

[Deftoner]

@rsasoldier:

What colour are the R4 and 5's you guys are using? Are they all black or are they "brown" and black? (if that makes sense..?)

[exT70]

@rsasoldier:

What colour are the R4 and 5's you guys are using? Are they all black or are they "brown" and black? (if that makes sense..?)

Both, though most/all of the furniture is black (except for some original ones that had/has wooden foregrips). Black is also the prevailing colour. The two-tones usually only has a brown gas-tube.

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/412684779_cb56e6aa43_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/412712987_1852d7af0f_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/412719558_53dd5b0102_o.jpg

[Deftoner]

Both, though most/all of the furniture is black (except for some original ones that had/has wooden foregrips). Black is also the prevailing colour. The two-tones usually only has a brown gas-tube.

Ah...I see! Thanks a bunch man, thats a great help. Especially the pic (its for a 3d model) ;)

[rsasoldier]

South African patrol moving out from Mahla, North Darfur in the new Mamba Mk III's. South Africa is the only country supplying armoured vehicles for their protection force to do patrols in.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/414657491_21d313de0a_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/414725991_c0cfe547de_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

Every morning and evening the routine of the South Africans was to stand to. We were the only ones doing it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/164/414728807_c0dd869efa_o.jpg

[Ironsight06]

Nice pics of the Mamba. Got more?

[playtym]

Every morning and evening the routine of the South Africans was to stand to. We were the only ones doing it.

That's one thing that hasn't changed since I was in the SADF I see. :)

[rsasoldier]

Every morning the company commander had a company parade. Nobody else does this in Darfur.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/123/414730529_98fed0ddea_o.jpg

[rsasoldier]

You would be amazed how many things stay the same in well-run battalions and companies. The company you see here is B Company, 8 SAI Bn. Very well-disciplined guys. One night there was a false alarm. It took them a minute to get into their bunkers, ready. I was impressed, especially since the fire alarm had been set off accidentally and therefor nobody knew it was planned. Their base was also very neat and clean. Up to this stage I have not seen a base in Darfur up to the same standard.

[playtym]

You would be amazed how many things stay the same in well-run battalions and companies. The company you see here is B Company, 8 SAI Bn. Very well-disciplined guys. One night there was a false alarm. It took them a minute to get into their bunkers, ready. I was impressed, especially since the fire alarm had been set off accidentally and therefor nobody knew it was planned. Their base was also very neat and clean. Up to this stage I have not seen a base in Darfur up to the same standard.

Awesome! My old company back in 1989!! :)

[rsasoldier]

What a coincidence.

When I lose hope things happen that envigorate me again. I think time will get rid of the guys who do not understand the concept of disciplined soldiering. I joined in 1992 and did my national service with 32 Battalion at Pomfret, but I was there about two weeks before we heard the unit was to close down. I was pissed off to say the least. That was one of the last years where we still had the old system in the defence force.

Strangely enough I cleared in at 8 SAI Bn before I went to Infantry School for JL's. I still remember the morning when we arrived there they made us sit in long rows on the grass with our luggage as the MP's checked our luggage. The whole time Depeche Mode was playing over the loudspeakers. It was a great feeling.

[playtym]

The only decent piece of grass in the whole place, up the top near the HQ?

I remember the family days when your folks saw that area and thought it was such a cushy base. The rest of it was like a desert though!

At least you could get your washing dry in under 10 minutes there! :)

[Hellfish]

Are there any optics for the Patmor at all, or is it just good old Kentucky windage to put rounds on a target?

[playtym]

Are there any optics for the Patmor at all, or is it just good old Kentucky windage to put rounds on a target?

That cover over the top of the handgrip is covering a ranging device. Just a spirit level kind of thing with range markings on it. Guess the range, tilt the tube until the bubble lines up with the correct distance and drop the bomb down the tube. It has seperate markings for the different charges you can use on the bomb IIRC.

[rsasoldier]

The Patmor is a very handy weapon if you can carry enough ammo with. Some guys can put the first bomb close or on the target with their first shot, which helps when you have limited ammunition.

It can also be a bit of a challenge fast roping with all that weight of the bombs dragging you down, but I would rather have it than not.

The Patmor, 40mm 6-shot MGL, FT 5, FN MAG or SS77 as well as riflemen who shoot accurately gives a South African platoon quite a punch. Then in the airbourne environment they also have RPG 7's, which is a great weapon if you know how to aim for wind.

[exT70]

The Patmor, 40mm 6-shot MGL, FT 5, FN MAG or SS77 as well as riflemen who shoot accurately gives a South African platoon quite a punch. Then in the airbourne environment they also have RPG 7's, which is a great weapon if you know how to aim for wind.[/quote]

FT5 have been withdrawn (temporarily). Had to hand ours back end last year. We are all back to RPG7's. Troops have enjoyed the switch. Now they at least get to fire the toys they carry (other than sub-callibre). FT5 ammo scarce and expensive. RPG also tougher than FT5. I liked FT5 though.

Shooting accurately. Got brand new First and Indoor range in my neck of the woods. Played for first time last night. Hopefully now improve level of shooting. Troops as well as myself. Quite interesting how Musketry Coaching has changed (for the best) in the post SADF years. In my time you had your lectures etc, but you were basically ecpected to be able to shoot, and shoot well, already. A lot better now.

[exT70]

You would be amazed how many things stay the same in well-run battalions and companies. The company you see here is B Company, 8 SAI Bn. Very well-disciplined guys. One night there was a false alarm. It took them a minute to get into their bunkers, ready. I was impressed, especially since the fire alarm had been set off accidentally and therefor nobody knew it was planned. Their base was also very neat and clean. Up to this stage I have not seen a base in Darfur up to the same standard.

8SAI has a good boss/OC. One should n't expect any less.
Still can't figure out why 61 had to close though (yeah and I know)

[playtym]

Quite interesting how Musketry Coaching has changed (for the best) in the post SADF years. In my time you had your lectures etc, but you were basically ecpected to be able to shoot, and shoot well, already. A lot better now.

I think back in those days they were hoping the guys would come in with a decent level already as they starterd us all off at school with the cadet musketry lessons. The problem was though that most people didn't take that stuff seriously.

[rsasoldier]

One of the big differences between a good army and a less than good one is how accurate its soldiers shoot. The US Marines for example spend lots of time on musketry training so I think that is one of the reasons why they are one of the better fighting forces around today.

I also know that during the Anglo Boer War the English had a lot of respect for how accurately the Boers could shoot. The Boers were special with their good marksmanship and for the fact that they were mounted. Whenever a group of Boers would form a fighting patrol they would call it a Commando; hence the word "Commando" is used to indicate special forces up to today anywhere in the world.

[MR1]

Every morning the company commander had a company parade. Nobody else does this in Darfur.




Nonsense

When I was there in 05 I visited every base in the AO, the Rwandans always had early morning parades and PT

The camps all looked good mainly due to the private contractor that built them, IMO the SA soldiers were only marginaly better than the Nigerians. The Rwandans were the cream of the crop without a doubt.

[rsasoldier]

This is not 05 anymore. I have to add though that I would believe that of the Rwandans. Thanks for the correction, MR1, but your information may be outdated. Do you know anybody in a Rwandan base who could verify it is still happening?

The private contractor (PAE) maintains the bases as far as functionality goes, but in a military environment one needs a base that is free of papers flying around and cigarette butts lying all over the place. That is one of the differences between a disciplined and undisciplined unit. Therefor in the mornings we do what they call "chicken parades" to ensure the bases are clean.

To say that the South Africans are marginally better than the Nigerians is a slap in the face. I worked in a Nigerian sector for my first six months in Darfur. During that period the Nigerian protection force were dressing as they pleased on patrols, not once in the first six months did they practice the emergency drill, they were late for every single patrol, they never did stand-to, they almost never got off their vehicles for obstacle crossing drills, they almost never went into all round defence when they were supposed to at stops, they do not practice drills as they should and so the list continues.

Furthermore I am not sure exactly what you saw, but the South Africans are still better than the Rwandans. To which unit are you comparing the Rwandans, 6 SAI Bn or 8 SAI Bn? I know the last parade I saw the Rwandans do I was not at all impressed. I do however agree that they are good fighters and I would work with them anytime, but I work with South African soldiers all the time since I am in the defence force and on what I know we are capable of and by what I know we train our soldiers I still think we are better. At the very least we have better support.

[MR1]

RSA Soldier
The resident bn was at Kutum during my time there, cannot for the life of me remember which designation.

I am glad for SA sake if standards have improved however during my time there it was a shower to say the least.

PS when I was at Khor Abeche protfor was Nigerian and I used to go running with them in the mornings there company CO was a stickler for discipline. Whilst the engineers (SA) there did not compare well with that in mind.

I agree in most areas the Nigerians were terrible especially Nyala, however the amount of whining that came out of Kutum was unbelievable. PS plenty of stompies and other trash around Kutum then as well!

The Rwandians whom I encountered were excellent fighting soldiers, their parade ground drill whilst not a SP Guard level was good enough and I would go to war with them any day!

No I am sorry mate my opinin in my own perception stands in 05 the Rwandians were top of the crop, again as you said this aint 05 no more and I have not been back since but friends still in country have confirmed the Rwandians still have their early morning parades.

PS I know what a chicken parade is have done one or two.

[rsasoldier]

Good luck to you for your time in Afghanistan, MR1. I assume that is where you are. I think in the end both of us only want a well-disciplined army to feel proud of and I agree the standards with some units are very poor.

Could you post photos of any South African equipment in use in Afghanistan? I heard that they use a South African armoured vehicle for many patrols.

[boerbull]

I'm serving in a dutch air assault company leaving for afghanistan soon. I know we are borrowing mamba's from the canadians over there. Holland was looking into bying them but decided on the australian bushmaster insteed. What I find strange is that everybody here call the mamba's nyala's. I thought that was the police riot vehicle. Anyway I'll go look for pictures. I have seen them before on this site.

[Ironsight06]

I'm serving in a dutch air assault company leaving for afghanistan soon. I know we are borrowing mamba's from the canadians over there. Holland was looking into bying them but decided on the australian bushmaster insteed. What I find strange is that everybody here call the mamba's nyala's. I thought that was the police riot vehicle. Anyway I'll go look for pictures. I have seen them before on this site.
That´s because they are no Mamba´s, but RG-31 Nyala´s.

[MR1]

RSA soldier

You are absolutely right bud, and trust me you have all my respect for still being in and sticking around.

The canucks here use what we call Mamba's although for some reason they call them Nyala's.

Yep Ironsights I believe you in thats what their official name is however a Nyala to me will always be a riot vehicle and a mamba will always be a mamba. both of them trying to live up to the character of a Casspir no matter what the tech specs.

Even in Iraq the descendents of the Casspir is still going great guns with the USMC and the EOD guys there as well as mamba and even some Casspirs.

be safe all.

[boerbull]

Then why do they call it mamba in south africa and what is the riot vehicle called?
I don't know how to post a link to another thread, but in the "Dutch military pictures" thread there is a few photo's of the nyala's we use.

[boerbull]

sorry i'm a slow typer. didnt see the reply

[boerbull]

Here are some mamba's in afghanistan
23746

23747

23748

23749

23750

23751

[playtym]

Here are some mamba's in afghanistan

Those are all RG-31 Nyala's.

This is an RG-31 Nyala, which this is not the same as the Mamba that is in serivce with the SANDF.
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/7265/rg31nyala02xl3.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/5199/rg31nyala01hw7.jpg


This is a Mamba Mk I
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6523/mambamki01ui8.jpg

This is a Mamba Mk II
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6990/mambamkii01uh8.jpg

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1868/mambamkii02pi8.jpg

This is a Mamba Mk III (rsasoldier posted other pics above)
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1713/mambamkiiifm9.jpg


Then why do they call it mamba in south africa and what is the riot vehicle called?

This is the SAPS riot vehicle you're talking about - RG-12 Nyala (the SAPS name for it)
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4271/rg12nyalapo1.jpg

[Jim Warford]

As long as the SANDF keeps almost everything in the public domain, I'm happy. Just don't pull a JD on yourself (John has been scarce lately). His episode almost got interested.

Guys; great discussion and info...here are some pics I had regarding upgraded Olifants. Can you clarify the Mk designations?

(Mk 1B Upgrade and Mk 2 turret minus additional modular armor):

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7575/olifantmk1bupgrade1yc7.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1883/olifantmk2turretmk1bkz6.jpg

[Jim Warford]

...here's another pic of the Mk1B Upgrade that includes a look at a 105mm APFSDS round:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7089/olifantmk1bupgrade2061yi9.jpg

[Mattpanex]

Hi there,

I am new to the forum and glad to see that there is a couple of South Africans kicking about.

Unfortunately I was in the military before the digital age and during a time when taking pictures could land you in the DB. I have a couple of pictures that I will post as soon as I have scanned them. I was called up to 61 Mechanized Battalion in 1991, but I ended up at Infantry School, Oudtshoorn for JL’s.

After finishing JL’s I was posted to 21 SA Infantry Battalion in Lenasia, where I served as a platoon commander and ad hoc company commander. I was trained in COIN Urban and Rural disciplines, but spend most of my time being deployed in a COIN urban capacity.

After my compulsory 12 months I signed on for an extra 12 months short service, but bought myself out after 3 months. That is a story for another day.

[Ironsight06]

Hi there,

I am new to the forum and glad to see that there is a couple of South Africans kicking about.

Unfortunately I was in the military before the digital age and during a time when taking pictures could land you in the DB. I have a couple of pictures that I will post as soon as I have scanned them. I was called up to 61 Mechanized Battalion in 1991, but I ended up at Infantry School, Oudtshoorn for JL’s.

After finishing JL’s I was posted to 21 SA Infantry Battalion in Lenasia, where I served as a platoon commander and ad hoc company commander. I was trained in COIN Urban and Rural disciplines, but spend most of my time being deployed in a COIN urban capacity.

After my compulsory 12 months I signed on for an extra 12 months short service, but bought myself out after 3 months. That is a story for another day.
Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to your pictures :)

[Clint_Durban]

I have started an 8 SAI Battalion website and I am looking for more photos! http://groups.msn.com/8SAInfantryUnit/

Anyone know whether it would be possible to get hold of any of the archive SADF photos from 8 SAI Battalion? They were kept in the 8 SAI Media Centre (probably still there!).

I imagine that they will be thrown out in due course (if that hasn't happened already).

I was based at 8 SAI (89-90) and spent some time with the Media Centre photographers. They had thousands of photos from 8 SAI displays, operations and various functions.

I am also looking photos of the old yellow enamel 8 SAI belt buckle and beret badge.

[baboon6]

Okay I'm still confused. I can see a few cosmetic differences between the Mamba and RG-31 Nyala, but are there any real differences eg. powerplant? And why the name-change?

[playtym]

Okay I'm still confused. I can see a few cosmetic differences between the Mamba and RG-31 Nyala, but are there any real differences eg. powerplant? And why the name-change?

I can't speak for the Mamba Mk III, but the Mk II's built by Reumech OMC were built on the Unimog chassis so as to ease supply and maintenance. The SADF already had plenty of Unimog spares etc from the Buffels, and the tiffies knew how to fix them.

The earlier Mk I produced by TFM was built on a 4x4 truck chassis, and I belive the RG-31 is as well.

[Ironsight06]

I can't speak for the Mamba Mk III, but the Mk II's built by Reumech OMC were built on the Unimog chassis so as to ease supply and maintenance. The SADF already had plenty of Unimog spares etc from the Buffels, and the tiffies knew how to fix them.

The earlier Mk I produced by TFM was built on a 4x4 truck chassis, and I belive the RG-31 is as well.
Yep you're right, the first Mamba's were built of the Unimog and the later ones and the RG-31 have a total newly built chassis and engine.

[exT70]

[quote=Jim Warford;2362458]...here's another pic of the Mk1B Upgrade that includes a look at a 105mm APFSDS round:

Jim
I must really get a new wide-angle lens, those black roundings are starting to work on my own nerves.
Will post better pic of those 105 HESH and FS rounds in front as soon as I get time to photobucket again.
More pics at the thread below. You might however already have them from Tanknet.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101872&page=7

When it comes to designations the Olifant has really become a product of the thirdworld country we are. The orignal 1B, of which 148, 44 or just a few (less than 10, maybe under 5, who knows) were buildt (take your pick which number, but 1Tk Reg is still driving Mk1A's..., you be the judge) were to be built in a number of guises. I got to play with and test prototypes of the 1B many moons ago (gunnery and sights), but the final specs I do not know, and have not been able to find. I never used or worked on the completed Mk1B. The Mk2 (and to further confuse the issue, I'll call it the "X") was to have a totally new turret with lots of nice toys, with the gun upgradeable to a 120, fitted to an upgraded Cent hull. It was this vehicle that was believed to be purchased when Hoefyster was canned/delayed again a year or what ago and the money transferred to the Olifant upgrade. The Mk2 (I'll call this one the "Y") that was however exhibited at AAD06, and which I photographed, is seemingly a mix between the two. Not a new turret, but all the "X's" new turret's toys stuck to the Cent turret. How many of what version used, buildt, converted or whatever, I'll believe when I see the "tenkblad" at School of Armour filled with then, and I see 1Tk Reg using them at Seboka.
And that was my verbose bit for today.

[exT70]

...here's another pic of the Mk1B Upgrade that includes a look at a 105mm APFSDS round:



105 FS and Hesh

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/OlifantHESH.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/OlifantHESH.jpg)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/OlifantAPFSDSMk1.jpg (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/OlifantAPFSDSMk1.jpg)
(please note that Mk name is not necessarily correct)

[wilhelm]

exT70, did you perhaps get any photos of the Ammunition displayed in front of the Rooikat at AADS2006?

[wilhelm]

Ahh... do you have close-ups? Appear to be 2 types of Sabot rounds?

PS: Think I got this off the sa-transport site.

[wilhelm]

I left the Army before the Rooikat was actually taken into service. What are the attachment points on the Rooikat turret for? Are they extra armour attachment points, or for more mundane items like bins or equipment racks?

[exT70]

exT70, did you perhaps get any photos of the Ammunition displayed in front of the Rooikat at AADS2006?

Ask and you will receive …. unfortunately not two types of FS, but more fun, a cutaway of an FS. First time I have seen one for a Kat.
Light blue round is HE Prac.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/RooikatAAD12.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/RooikatAAD11.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/RooikatAAD10.jpg

[exT70]

I left the Army before the Rooikat was actually taken into service. What are the attachment points on the Rooikat turret for? Are they extra armour attachment points, or for more mundane items like bins or equipment racks?

Mundane.
Unfortunately nothing so interesting as armour etc. Not substantial enough for anything solid.
Rather cammo-nets and odds and sods. Not Kat trained myself either (left before I did my second veh), so don’t know if Kat “stow-and-carry” specifies anything.

[wilhelm]

Thanks for that.

[Clint_Durban]

8 SAI (SADF) photo video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQCNgN6W0ow

[playtym]

8 SAI (SADF) photo video

http://www.youtube.com/v/P_c9mxMi4ME


I know you wanted someone to do that for you. :)

[exT70]

8 SAI (SADF) photo video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_c9mxMi4ME

Clint
Why did you head the vid as 8Mech?

[playtym]

Clint
Why did you head the vid as 8Mech?

Probably because in 1989 8SAI converted to a Mech unit. I believe they have reverted to Mot now though.

[Clint_Durban]

Clint
Why did you head the vid as 8Mech?

I have updated the 8 SAI video (and website) and removed the term 'mechanised' to make it more applicable to more troops that served with the unit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQCNgN6W0ow

[Clint_Durban]

I know you wanted someone to do that for you. :)

Please can you update it with the new link!

[playtym]

I have updated the 8 SAI video (and website) and removed the term 'mechanised' to make it more applicable to more troops that served with the unit!

http://www.youtube.com/v/yQCNgN6W0ow

12345678910

[Clint_Durban]

Howzit guys!

I have started a new website where we can post these photos and get other ex-SADF guys to contribute!

There is even a spot for SANDF photos! (which tend to be of better quality due to modern cameras and the digital age)

Link below!

http://groups.msn.com/SADFphotos

[Ironsight06]

It would be nice if something like a big SADF resource center could be set up. Something interactive like the MSN Group...

[exT70]

I have updated the 8 SAI video (and website) and removed the term 'mechanised' to make it more applicable to more troops that served with the unit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQCNgN6W0ow

My apologies for being a pedantic so-and-so. 8SAI (as far as I know) always retained the name 8SAI (eg. 1SAI, still Mech unit, still only 8SAI - not composite/multi-corps/attached unit). Reason for my "sensitivities" being that during the 61Bn closure and 8SAI amalgamation it was proposed to rename 8SAI to 8Mech to accomodate both units' names. I rather liked this idea. The powers that be did not. 8SAI is now a Mech unit and are currently deployed.

[playtym]

My apologies for being a pedantic so-and-so. 8SAI (as far as I know) always retained the name 8SAI (eg. 1SAI, still Mech unit, still only 8SAI - not composite/multi-corps/attached unit). Reason for my "sensitivities" being that during the 61Bn closure and 8SAI amalgamation it was proposed to rename 8SAI to 8Mech to accomodate both units' names. I rather liked this idea. The powers that be did not. 8SAI is now a Mech unit and are currently deployed.

So 8SAI is still mechanised? We were having a debate here a while back regarding which units were still mechanised and popular opinion was that 1SAI is our only remaining mechanised unit.

I thought 4SAI and 8SAI were also mechanised but people seemed to think that they'd reverted back to being motorised.

If you can say, which units are mchanised?

[exT70]

So 8SAI is still mechanised? We were having a debate here a while back regarding which units were still mechanised and popular opinion was that 1SAI is our only remaining mechanised unit.

I thought 4SAI and 8SAI were also mechanised but people seemed to think that they'd reverted back to being motorised.

If you can say, which units are mchanised?

No, I probably can't say, but the Dept of Defence can:
(see page 39 onwards)(not PDF pages, but pages in doc itself)

http://www.dod.mil.za/documents/strategicbusinessplan/DODstratplan06to09.pdf

Seeing as info is in public domain.
1SAI and 8SAI are SANDF regular (PF) Mech Bns.
There are also (according to the above plan) 4 Reserve Mech Bns (ACR).

[baboon6]

Glad we've finally sorted this out ! Thanks exT70!

[playtym]

Glad we've finally sorted this out ! Thanks exT70!

I thought you'd be as happy as me. I think we both kinda went away scratching our heads at not having found a definative answer. :)

[baboon6]

Having read the PDF now and done some other searches it would seem 8 SAI was motorised for a while (certainly in the 1997/98 timeframe) but will now (or has fairly recently) become mechanised, taking over from 61 Mech. The PDF says "61 Mech Bn (must reorganise at Upington)", after "1 SAI Bn" and before "four Mech Inf Bns (Reserve Force)". So will 8 SAI retain its name or become the "new" 61 Mech?

[exT70]

Having read the PDF now and done some other searches it would seem 8 SAI was motorised for a while (certainly in the 1997/98 timeframe) but will now (or has fairly recently) become mechanised, taking over from 61 Mech. The PDF says "61 Mech Bn (must reorganise at Upington)", after "1 SAI Bn" and before "four Mech Inf Bns (Reserve Force)". So will 8 SAI retain its name or become the "new" 61 Mech?

8SAI stays 8SAI. The 8Mech idea was not excepted. Pretty much the whole of 61 moved to Upington (8SAI now commanded by ex-61 OC) and the reasons for and behind the closure of 61 and move to Upington would be a thread on its own.
As with 1SAI, the 8SAI name is correct. The old "Mech" designation as in 61 and 62Mech of old would not be correct today. The current "Mech" Bns are "pure" Inf Bns, and not the composite Mech Bns of old. Hence "SAI". No armour, art etc. are permenently/semi-permanently attached anymore. Last "combined" (with different Corps being attached) force I can remember is "Skeleton Force" of Lohatla/CTC of old.

[baboon6]

I suppose that kind of force (61 Mech-like) could be put together for ops with a few months training, from elements of 1 SAI, 8 SAI, 1SSB, 1 SA Tank Regt and 4 Arty Regt. Does a mech bn include Ratel-90s and ZT-3s? Although losing the habitual working of combined-arms battle groups is not a good thing IMHO. The army does seem a bit unbalanced though. When are eight motorised infantry battalions going to be needed? Surely four or five would be enough, even with peacekeeping commitments?

Total infantry (regular force) is now 14 battalions (2 mech, 1 para, 1 airmobile, 8 motorised, 3 light).
Armour (reg force)- 1 tank regt, 1 armoured recce regt
Artillery (reg force)- 1 regiment (combined field/rocket/mortar)

[exT70]

I suppose that kind of force (61 Mech-like) could be put together for ops with a few months training, from elements of 1 SAI, 8 SAI, 1SSB, 1 SA Tank Regt and 4 Arty Regt. Does a mech bn include Ratel-90s and ZT-3s? Although losing the habitual working of combined-arms battle groups is not a good thing IMHO. The army does seem a bit unbalanced though. When are eight motorised infantry battalions going to be needed? Surely four or five would be enough, even with peacekeeping commitments?

Total infantry (regular force) is now 14 battalions (2 mech, 1 para, 1 airmobile, 8 motorised, 3 light).
Armour (reg force)- 1 tank regt, 1 armoured recce regt
Artillery (reg force)- 1 regiment (combined field/rocket/mortar)

Ratel 90 is part of Atk Pl in Supt Coy of Inf Bn and accordingly a SAIC weapon. ZT-3 (or whatever its called now) in a SAAC weapon (though it should probably also be part of the SAIC and specifically in the Atk Pl).

The current "balance" of the army is almost immaterial. Everybody in all the overstretched Bns are doing the same peacekeeping duties, which mostly to date entails MOT work. And the emphysis shall be where the money is being spent and troops utilised, being peacekeeping. Guess what plays second fiddle? Conventional warfare.

[baboon6]

Ratel 90 is part of Atk Pl in Supt Coy of Inf Bn and accordingly a SAIC weapon. ZT-3 (or whatever its called now) in a SAAC weapon (though it should probably also be part of the SAIC and specifically in the Atk Pl).

The current "balance" of the army is almost immaterial. Everybody in all the overstretched Bns are doing the same peacekeeping duties, which mostly to date entails MOT work. And the emphysis shall be where the money is being spent and troops utilised, being peacekeeping. Guess what plays second fiddle? Conventional warfare.

Yes I suppose it's inevitable.

Re: anti-tanks; that document mentions AT missiles as part of an armoured car regt, which in the reg force is 1SSB. I assume Ratel-90s are in mech inf bns only while the others have the 106mm recoilless.

[exT70]

Yes I suppose it's inevitable.

Re: anti-tanks; that document mentions AT missiles as part of an armoured car regt, which in the reg force is 1SSB. I assume Ratel-90s are in mech inf bns only while the others have the 106mm recoilless.

I doubt whether too much ZT3 work is being done at present. The toys cost-a-plenty and I hazzard a guess only a very small numbers will be in service (if any).
Correct re Ratel 90 (Mech) and 106 (Mot) mounted on Caspirs. Atk Pl (Mech & Mot) are also supposed to have tank hunting team. Years ago they were equiped with Milan, but systems were withdrawn many moons ago (cost of toys again). Have seen reports in media that Milan might/has been purchased again. Same existing withdrawn launchers, new generation missles. Atk Pl would now have to use RPGs as per a normal Pl (RPG now standard Pl weapon).

[teutateswolf-n]

Wow...the SADF, by becoming the SANDF, really became small.
There is also the stereotype that the effeciency is lower than before 1994. Is it right or wrong stereotype?


I suppose that kind of force (61 Mech-like) could be put together for ops with a few months training, from elements of 1 SAI, 8 SAI, 1SSB, 1 SA Tank Regt and 4 Arty Regt. Does a mech bn include Ratel-90s and ZT-3s? Although losing the habitual working of combined-arms battle groups is not a good thing IMHO. The army does seem a bit unbalanced though. When are eight motorised infantry battalions going to be needed? Surely four or five would be enough, even with peacekeeping commitments?

Total infantry (regular force) is now 14 battalions (2 mech, 1 para, 1 airmobile, 8 motorised, 3 light).
Armour (reg force)- 1 tank regt, 1 armoured recce regt
Artillery (reg force)- 1 regiment (combined field/rocket/mortar)

[exT70]

Wow...the SADF, by becoming the SANDF, really became small.
There is also the stereotype that the effeciency is lower than before 1994. Is it right or wrong stereotype?

What happens to any Defence Force when the war ends and no new threat takes it place??

And you get rid of a very large proportion of you combat-experienced and/or capable staff??

And politics take over (and in this I am incorrect - any organisation of any size has "politics" of some sort/manner/form involved - this was the case in the SADF and still so with the SANDF - the rest is up to your own interpretation)

[exT70]

Something sort of newish. For those with a propensity for jumping out of perfectly serviceable aircraft.

SANDF Gecko as to be used/used by both Parabats and Airlanded. I don’t know whether it is to replace the Jackal or be used in conjunction with it.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVAAD20065.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVAAD20061.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVAAD20066.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVAAD20068.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVAAD20063.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVAAD20062.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVwithMilanAAD20069.jpg

[teutateswolf-n]

Without doing any ideological or political statment, do you think that the fact that there are now so many black people in your army has affected in one way or another the efficiency or the spirit?


What happens to any Defence Force when the war ends and no new threat takes it place??

And you get rid of a very large proportion of you combat-experienced and/or capable staff??

And politics take over (and in this I am incorrect - any organisation of any size has "politics" of some sort/manner/form involved - this was the case in the SADF and still so with the SANDF - the rest is up to your own interpretation)

[Ironsight06]

Playtym posted some videos of the Gecko in this topic.

[playtym]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/GeckoATVAAD20066.jpg

That is one SERIOUS comms trailer!

[exT70]

That is one SERIOUS comms trailer!

Just sorry about the age on some of the radios on it.

[Dark Avenger]

I see that the Gecko can be used as a weapons carrier (MILAN, rockets, etc). Any good pics of such vehicles please?

[baboon6]

Wow...the SADF, by becoming the SANDF, really became small.
There is also the stereotype that the effeciency is lower than before 1994. Is it right or wrong stereotype?

The SA military has been through tough times before, in the 1950s, and recovered. Quite a few guys left then, or were sacked, or sidelined, including some very combat-experienced officers and NCOs, like Brigadier Jimmy Durrant (Acting Maj. Gen. at 32 during the war, post-war head of the SAAF-resigned) or Brigadier Jack Bester (outstanding battalion and brigade commander in the war, ended up commanding the Railways Police). Again there was no credible threat and politics was playing a big role. One who left (not a WW2 veteran) was the future Colonel Jan Breytenbach, founder of the Recces and 32 Battalion. He became an officer in the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm and flew as an observer on Sea Venoms during the Suez operation in 1956. Later of course he returned to the SADF.

[exT70]

Without doing any ideological or political statment, do you think that the fact that there are now so many black people in your army has affected in one way or another the efficiency or the spirit?

No. Categorically no!
The black troops today are as good, if not a lot better, than the previous generation. Look at the old SADF and look as some of the so-called elite units and who staffed them.
There is nothing wrong with the troops. To quote: "You don't get bad troops, only bad leadership". Troops only become a problem if they are allowed to.
It is rather a matter of political will, defined aims, quality control, etc.
And even though it was before my time, I think the erstwhile (SA)UDF (UnionDefForce) and SADF went through similar times (called the "Erasmus Years"). What does annoy me however is that the higher echelons are in denail in this regard.

[teutateswolf-n]

Sorry if my question is stupid but, I knoe Erasmus, but what are the "Erasmus Years"?


No. Categorically no!
The black troops today are as good, if not a lot better, than the previous generation. Look at the old SADF and look as some of the so-called elite units and who staffed them.
There is nothing wrong with the troops. To quote: "You don't get bad troops, only bad leadership". Troops only become a problem if they are allowed to.
It is rather a matter of political will, defined aims, quality control, etc.
And even though it was before my time, I think the erstwhile (SA)UDF (UnionDefForce) and SADF went through similar times (called the "Erasmus Years"). What does annoy me however is that the higher echelons are in denail in this regard.

[Mattpanex]

I did my National Service in 1991/ 1992 at 21 SAI Lenasia and apart from the officer core the whole unit was black.

During 1991 the then SADF started with the integration of the historical freedom fighter military units into the SADF.

I kicked off with 50 recruits to my platoon and by mid 1992 when I left there were 32 fully trained and efficient infantrymen left in my platoon, they were trained in both COIN Urban and Rural warfare. I have worked with both whites and blacks in operational situation and to me there was very little difference between the them, the only difference could be marksmanship.

From 50 to 32:
3 X KIA (two was shot by corrupt riot control policemen and one by a gang)
5 X AIDS (accordingto some recent repots it remains the greatest threat to our armed forces)
8 X Fell off the wagon
2 X Deserters
Training was reletively easy since most of them has undergone some sort of military training before, we brought a lot of structure and discipline to them which made them even more efficient in their respective roles.

There was a crminal element at the time which were involved in bank robberies etc. and I believe that those elements are responsible for the hi level of cash intransit hijacking we have in ZA.

There are a couple of problems in the SANDF:
AWOL
Sick leave - According to sme report we hit a record low a couple of months ago wih more than 30% of the SANDF on sick leave

[exT70]

Sorry if my question is stupid but, I knoe Erasmus, but what are the "Erasmus Years"?

The "Erasmus Years" is the period during which a certain "clever" chap with the surname Erasmus served as SA Min of Defence and decided that there will never ever again be any war or threat in the world (and against South Africa in particular) and did his best to get rid of any SAfrican defensive capability. The defence force under him became a lame duck and had to be totally rebuilt to fix the institutionalised problems.

[teutateswolf-n]

Fell of the wagon?!
I'm not sure if it's because of English that is not my native language, but what do you mean? These 8 guys died because they fell from the truck?

And 2 deserters! But, were they volunteers? If yes, why did they not simply left their job at the army?

Finally, 5 from AIDS,... wow, that really a lot. If it's like that in every unit, it's really a big threat to your manpower.


I did my National Service in 1991/ 1992 at 21 SAI Lenasia and apart from the officer core the whole unit was black.

During 1991 the then SADF started with the integration of the historical freedom fighter military units into the SADF.

I kicked off with 50 recruits to my platoon and by mid 1992 when I left there were 32 fully trained and efficient infantrymen left in my platoon, they were trained in both COIN Urban and Rural warfare. I have worked with both whites and blacks in operational situation and to me there was very little difference between the them, the only difference could be marksmanship.


From 50 to 32:3 X KIA (two was shot by corrupt riot control policemen and one by a gang)

5 X AIDS (accordingto some recent repots it remains the greatest threat to our armed forces)

8 X Fell off the wagon

2 X Deserters
Training was reletively easy since most of them has undergone some sort of military training before, we brought a lot of structure and discipline to them which made them even more efficient in their respective roles.

There was a crminal element at the time which were involved in bank robberies etc. and I believe that those elements are responsible for the hi level of cash intransit hijacking we have in ZA.


There are a couple of problems in the SANDF:AWOL

Sick leave - According to sme report we hit a record low a couple of months ago wih more than 30% of the SANDF on sick leave

[teutateswolf-n]

Thanks for your information.
When was it?


The "Erasmus Years" is the period during which a certain "clever" chap with the surname Erasmus served as SA Min of Defence and decided that there will never ever again be any war or threat in the world (and against South Africa in particular) and did his best to get rid of any SAfrican defensive capability. The defence force under him became a lame duck and had to be totally rebuilt to fix the institutionalised problems.

[playtym]

Fell of the wagon?!
I'm not sure if it's because of English that is not my native language, but what do you mean? These 8 guys died because they fell from the truck?

English is a funny language, I don't blame you for thinking they fell off a truck and died. It could also mean that they were alchoholics who returned to drinking, but I think in this case he means that they didn't make it through training. :)

[Mattpanex]

Fell off the wagon - Did not make the grade:)

Yes, they were volunteers, but they had a contract and most of the time they took their whole kit (incl. rifle) with them once they deserted.

I guess it was a way of getting something you needed

[playtym]

Fell off the wagon - Did not make the grade:)

Yes, they were volunteers, but they had a contract and most of the time they took their whole kit (incl. rifle) with them once they deserted.

I guess it was a way of getting something you needed

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. Those 8 guys didn't fall off the wagon, they were just equiping themselves for their future jobs as CIT robbers!!

[Mattpanex]

Yep, getting what you needed:-(

[sierratango]

while we are here chatting about the efficiency of the current crop of troops...what is the average age of the troopie in the SANDF at the moment anyone have any ideas?

Also those who served in the mid 1980s will agree that the level of discipline enjoyed during those times even though we were national servicemen far exceeds that of the current army, the CIT references serves to re-enforce this.

[exT70]

while we are here chatting about the efficiency of the current crop of troops...what is the average age of the troopie in the SANDF at the moment anyone have any ideas?

Also those who served in the mid 1980s will agree that the level of discipline enjoyed during those times even though we were national servicemen far exceeds that of the current army, the CIT references serves to re-enforce this.

Ave age. Can't give you a definite number, but until very recently (and currently) that was one of the biggest problems the SANDF was facing. It had/has no exit strategy (at least which it can publicise) for integration members. This led to the MSD System (sort of voluntary national service) being implemented. A very large % of the troops therefore now deployed are MSDS member. With the influx of 18 to early20somethings the ave age has drastically decreased. It has however proven quite difficult to get rid of the "old wood". You therefore still get 45year old troops floating around. Virtually no new members are at present getting old style PF contracts, only short term ones that can be cancelled as you get too old for you pay grade.
Discipline is something totally different. Unfortunately it is a sad reflection on our society, not just the military. Look around you everywhere. Do you remember schools in the early 80's? Society in general. By late 80's discipline in the army was already more lax than before. It is now a big problem though, and, as I stated above, it is a matter of political will. Every new chief of the army/staff etc has the same story: "I will sort this problem out". And the result stays the same. Nothing done. A zero tolerance policy is however slowly being implemented (see comments re: exit strategy above), but this leads to many other problems as there is not a lot of scope for discretion. I don’t want all my rifleman to be sweet angels...they are soldiers after all.
We are however also now living in a human rights obsessed litigious society. Most of the stuff done in your day would land you in jail today. Add the whole race and sex issue to this as well (and not just black/white, but different tribes, groupings, sexes etc), and you can imagine the potential mess. It is not just the army that has changed, but society in general as well. However, no denying it, there are discipline problems, just don’t take the media too seriously. In the old days the army could do no wrong (regime press) or right (liberal press), you chose your newspaper for the version you wanted. Now it is simpler. The SANDF cannot do anything right. The media is mostly out to portray the SANDF as negatively as possible, despite a lot of positives mixed in with the negative.

[baboon6]

The "Erasmus Years" is the period during which a certain "clever" chap with the surname Erasmus served as SA Min of Defence and decided that there will never ever again be any war or threat in the world (and against South Africa in particular) and did his best to get rid of any SAfrican defensive capability. The defence force under him became a lame duck and had to be totally rebuilt to fix the institutionalised problems.

This is what I was alluding to in my post above. F. C. Erasmus became Minister of Defence in 1948 and immediately launched a vendetta against officers who were seen as too "English" or British-oriented. Maj. Gen. Everard Poole, who was Deputy Chief of General Staff and scheduled to take over as CGS (head of Defence Force at that time), was promptly sent off as SA Representative to the Allied Control Commission for Berlin. Poole was probably our best officer in WW2 and commanded the 6th SA Armoured Div in Italy. There were other examples such as Jimmy Durrant who I mentioned above. He resigned as Director-General of the SAAF citing "irreconcilable differences with the Minister of Defence". Other officers were sacked in the infamous "Midnight Ride" in 1953- dispatch riders took the involuntary retirement papers to the men's homes during the evening.

There was a general attempt to "de-Anglicize" the SADF. Defence spending was cut, ranks were changed (most reverted to the old ones within a few years, except for Commandant- today Lt.Col. again), and attempts were made to marginalise some of the traditional "English" regiments (nevermind that a large percentage of their men were Afrikaans-speaking). Erasmus had a particular problem with the Imperial Light Horse who he wanted to disband totally. Eventually they were kept on as the Light Horse Regiment. Thankfully by the early 1960s common sense had returned to a large degree.

[Ironsight06]

Hoefyster team awaits go-ahead
South African acquisition officials are hoping that they will "soon" receive authorisation to go ahead with the much-delayed new-generation Project Hoefyster infantry combat vehicle (ICV).The joint Armscor/South African National Defence Force project team has negotiated a best price offer from a Denel-led consortium of ZAR8.4 billion (USD1.15 billion) for 264 vehicles in five different configurations.
..............

[Jim Warford]

[quote=Jim Warford;2362458]...here's another pic of the Mk1B Upgrade that includes a look at a 105mm APFSDS round:

Jim
I must really get a new wide-angle lens, those black roundings are starting to work on my own nerves.
Will post better pic of those 105 HESH and FS rounds in front as soon as I get time to photobucket again.
More pics at the thread below. You might however already have them from Tanknet.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101872&page=7

When it comes to designations the Olifant has really become a product of the thirdworld country we are. The orignal 1B, of which 148, 44 or just a few (less than 10, maybe under 5, who knows) were buildt (take your pick which number, but 1Tk Reg is still driving Mk1A's..., you be the judge) were to be built in a number of guises. I got to play with and test prototypes of the 1B many moons ago (gunnery and sights), but the final specs I do not know, and have not been able to find. I never used or worked on the completed Mk1B. The Mk2 (and to further confuse the issue, I'll call it the "X") was to have a totally new turret with lots of nice toys, with the gun upgradeable to a 120, fitted to an upgraded Cent hull. It was this vehicle that was believed to be purchased when Hoefyster was canned/delayed again a year or what ago and the money transferred to the Olifant upgrade. The Mk2 (I'll call this one the "Y") that was however exhibited at AAD06, and which I photographed, is seemingly a mix between the two. Not a new turret, but all the "X's" new turret's toys stuck to the Cent turret. How many of what version used, buildt, converted or whatever, I'll believe when I see the "tenkblad" at School of Armour filled with then, and I see 1Tk Reg using them at Seboka.
And that was my verbose bit for today.

ExT70: thanks for the info...so the tank shown in your "black roundings" pics is the more modern Mk 2, not an upgraded Mk 1B...or are they one in the same? Also, do you have a good pic of the Rooikat 105 shown at the exhibition?

[exT70]

[quote=exT70;2371940]

ExT70: thanks for the info...so the tank shown in your "black roundings" pics is the more modern Mk 2, not an upgraded Mk 1B...or are they one in the same? Also, do you have a good pic of the Rooikat 105 shown at the exhibition?

Exactly where one should draw the line between the various upgrades would only become clear once upgraded vehicles start coming into service. As the Mk1B never became a general issue vehicle, officially it would seem that the answer to this question would remain one for guesswork and opinions. In the same vane, until such a time at the so called Mk2 comes into service we won’t know what precisely constitutes the Mk2, and even thereafter we won’t be able to compare it with the Mk1B, because we don’t know exactly what the Mk1B was supposed to have been. Makes any sense?
Back to gross personal conjecture not backed by any personal knowledge: the initial Mk1B’s that I saw (1990) had upgraded hull (armour and all automotive gear) and uparmoured turret. The “inside workings” (FCS etc) were still basically the same as that of the Mk1A that I served on at the time. During that timeframe I got to play with some of the stuff then in development and testing (and thus not in the then Mk1B), which were mostly gunnery and turret inside related. On the “Mk2” being first shown, it seemed that the idea was for a totally new turret (TTD type/spin-off) on an upgraded Mk1B hull. On the “Mk2” shown at AAD’06, this was not the case. Only an extensively upgraded Centurion turret. But with lots of new toys inside (which were not on the 1B when I saw it many, many moons ago). Starting with commander’s sight system (hunter/killer ability)(easiest ID of what seem to be dif between Mk1B and Mk2 on photos) and ending with different stab motors on the floor. The turret add-ons also for some reason looked different from what I remembered from the Mk1B, but can’t specify why (17years ago), just a feeling. Would also hazard a guess the composites used in the “boxes” would be different.

Saw you got a Rooikat 105 pic up on Tanknet.
Unfortunate did not get a good pic (1 only) of the Rooikat from the outside (sun from behind veh, taking pic into sun, so did not try too hard), but took quite a couple inside etc. Had very limited time during AAD06. Will remedy that this year. Despite what the info board says, I seriously doubt that the veh at AAD06 was the 105 version. Barrel does not look like the 105 one. I have pics of the breech etc as well, and it looks like the plain 76breech. But then again, the GT7 105 might look like the GT4 76. I don’t know.

[exT70]

This is what I was alluding to in my post above. F. C. Erasmus became Minister of Defence in 1948 and immediately launched a vendetta against officers who were seen as too "English" or British-oriented. Maj. Gen. Everard Poole, who was Deputy Chief of General Staff and scheduled to take over as CGS (head of Defence Force at that time), was promptly sent off as SA Representative to the Allied Control Commission for Berlin. Poole was probably our best officer in WW2 and commanded the 6th SA Armoured Div in Italy. There were other examples such as Jimmy Durrant who I mentioned above. He resigned as Director-General of the SAAF citing "irreconcilable differences with the Minister of Defence". Other officers were sacked in the infamous "Midnight Ride" in 1953- dispatch riders took the involuntary retirement papers to the men's homes during the evening.

There was a general attempt to "de-Anglicize" the SADF. Defence spending was cut, ranks were changed (most reverted to the old ones within a few years, except for Commandant- today Lt.Col. again), and attempts were made to marginalise some of the traditional "English" regiments (nevermind that a large percentage of their men were Afrikaans-speaking). Erasmus had a particular problem with the Imperial Light Horse who he wanted to disband totally. Eventually they were kept on as the Light Horse Regiment. Thankfully by the early 1960s common sense had returned to a large degree.

And does this not all sound way too familiar….
And combine this with a period of relative peace and the currrent low threat environment…
And wha-lah, you have the SANDF of today

(which is a very unfair statement in part, things have been improving in some ways over the last couple of years, there are lots of people working towards fixing things, in a very difficult, complex and taxing environment)

[soutikghosh]

Is this a version of Denel G-7 or not.

[/URL][url=http://www.adripix.com]http://www.adripix.com/uploads/2f135d57e4.jpg (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/)

[Ironsight06]

It looks like a G-7. Not 100% sure if it is.

[soutikghosh]

Can any of the South African Friends post some photos of the following:

a. ZA-35(SPAAG)
b. Kentron ZA-HVM(SPAAM)
c. Kentron SAHV-IR(TAAM)
d. G-6 52cal( new photos please)

Thankyou.:)

[Clint_Durban]

Here is the latest SADF video made for the SADF Photos website!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acAuwNLByEQ[/URL]

As usual I am unable to embed the video!

Also on LiveLeak at [URL]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eed_1175444101 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jj-id29Uqk)

[exT70]

Is this a version of Denel G-7 or not.

http://www.adripix.com/uploads/2f135d57e4.jpg (http://www.adripix.com)

I won't exactly be offering my services as a Leo expert, but I don't think this is it. Wrong recoil system, wrong muzzle brake (Leo has pepperpot), wrong towing system (Leo hitches at leg), wrong elevators etc. I think this is a concept of the the UK of US system. Have a couple of pics as well as the PDF brosjure. No idea how to post PDF doc.

[Ironsight06]

I won't exactly be offering my services as a Leo expert, but I don't think this is it. Wrong recoil system, wrong muzzle brake (Leo has pepperpot), wrong towing system (Leo hitches at leg), wrong elevators etc. I think this is a concept of the the UK of US system. Have a couple of pics as well as the PDF brosjure. No idea how to post PDF doc.
Hmm I do not totally agree with you. The recoil system is very similair and the towing system is exactly the same from what I have seen. It could be a G-7 however I wouldn't bet my money on it.

[exT70]

Hmm I do not totally agree with you. The recoil system is very similair and the towing system is exactly the same from what I have seen. It could be a G-7 however I wouldn't bet my money on it.

Please see attached PDF brosjures for G7.
Gun cradle is different. Recoil system is different. G7 does not have a muzzle tow, but tows via legs like G5.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002artillery/villers.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002artillery/villers.pdf)

http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_ArtillerySysTowedGun.pdf (http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_ArtillerySysTowedGun.pdf)

The picture you posted is of the V2C2 105mm US (BAE) competitor of the G7 and the picture itself is from the V2C2 brosjure.

[kpt. Zbik]

I'm looking for hi-res pics of Mamba MkIII currently in use by SADF. I'd like to use these pics in my article. Thanks in advance. :-)

[Ironsight06]

I'm looking for hi-res pics of Mamba MkIII currently in use by SADF. I'd like to use these pics in my article. Thanks in advance. :-)
Try the BAE OMC site.

[kpt. Zbik]

Nothing interesting on this site. I've checked and I've written to BAE OMC, but there is no answer.